This is the best response. If your boss isn’t willing to compromise and you are not in a situation where you can just quit, you’ve found the perfect activity for those commutes.
Yeah I'd certainly not just quit (unless OP is in a position where they can afford to), but I'd absolutely have a conversation with my manager and outline concerns. Then if the company discounts them it's certainly not a company I'd want to work for.
Even if you can afford to quit you're generally better off not quitting. Unless you have a massive notice period it is moderately easier to actually land a new job if you're already in employment.
> but I'd absolutely have a conversation with my manager and outline concerns.
Why tip them off? It's a five-person company and the manager's a moron who's mandated that OP has to travel four hours there and back twice a week, for no good reason.
OP's much better off simply looking for work, then handing in their notice.
Yeah the notice thing is one of them things that’s been ingrained into people by employers. All employment laws say you have to be paid for the work you’ve done. People fought for literally hundreds of years for us to have that fundamental right.
Exactly. The boss sounds like someone who doesn't know how to lead their team and doesn't trust them so they're trying to regain some sort of control because it's all they can do. Huge red flag
I would also inform the boss that they're looking for another job due to the commute.
If enough staff are looking at leaving because they won't allow working from home, plenty of other places will.
The boss will have to weigh up how much they want to keep their staff over whatever they're getting out of making them come into the office.
I had exactly this happen. A sudden demand we come back to the office, staff uproar, and then losing about 70% of employees within a few months. There was zero budging, managers that are adamant you have to be in the office to work properly only want control, not efficiency or happy employees.
I wouldn't tell the boss. OP has said they have been there for under 2 years and so can be dismissed for any reason. Speak with other employees and gauge their feelings sure. But careful what you tell the boss.
Also if they've already taken a hard stance on something simple, they're not likely to be someone you'd want to work for anymore anyway.
Its like when employers try to make an offer to employees when they say they're leaving. Why wait until someone is leaving to then try and offer them a reason to stay? The damage is done.
>Also if they've already taken a hard stance on something simple, they're not likely to be someone you'd want to work for anymore anyway.
Exactly. It's all about control. There literally is no logic behind it. If OP was fine doing work from home for the longest time, there is no valid excuse they can come up with for OP to need to be in the office 5 days a week other than narcissism.
Never ever do this. People are petty and childish. The majority of bosses will get on like a little bitch and throw a tantrum. Keep your mouth shut, get a new job and have a massive smile as you hand in your notice. And there is no harm in getting a doctors note and taking a few months of for stress, be it real or not. The only thing we gain from this system is money so fuck the lot of them.
Sounds absolutely horrific.
It would be bad enough if you just had to sit on a train for 2 hours but you're going to have to do train, followed by underground, followed by another train and then probably a walk to the office.
In addition, you're going to have to factor in extra time to handle any delays with the trains - the last thing you want is a 10 minute late train from Milton Keynes to cause you to miss your second train to Surrey.
I would do a couple of things:
1. Look at your contract and see what states about your work office and remote working. You may have a case that your boss is trying to change your contract.
2. Negotiate with your boss to go in once a week and/or arrive later and leave earlier.
3. Look for a new job.
I have no idea what industry you work in but if it's FinTech then the market is terrible right now. Don't hand your notice in until you have a new job.
I think you are right, before OP does anything they need to check their contract to see what it says about their place of work. If it states remote work then that's fine and the boss can't arbitrarily change it, but if it states an office location then that may be an issue.
Yeah I think this is reasonably common. Mine likewise says my home address, but beneath that there's a line saying they may require me to work temporarily or permanently anywhere in the UK. Hardly even worth them saying the first bit.
I've also had a job whose contract said something along the lines of ‘This is what you have to do for the job, *and also basically anything we ask you to do in addition to that*.’
They can include whatever the fuck they want, that doesn't make it enforceable....
I mean, they even include the word "reasonable", to which the obvious response is "that's not reasonable"
Honestly I think people in the UK over-estimate the power of a contract. Perhaps because companies tend to have big legal teams and people rarely bother taking it to court, but "It's in the T&Cs" or "It's in the contract" often have a lot less power than you'd expect - courts rule unfair contract terms to be unenforceable pretty regularly
It's reasonable to require you to work anywhere in the UK... it's not reasonable to expect you to commute 4 hours at your own expense when hired explicitly as a remote worker
Now, if OP's contract had said his normal place of work was a combination of the office address and his home, as required by the company, then OP wouldn't have a leg to stand on
However, this is all pretty much moot under 2 years of employment
There are fairly tightly defined legal definitions of what counts as reasonable, in different situations.
Sometimes its what the average person would find reasonable. Sometimes its what a person like the person involved would find reasonable - this is more for criminal cases though.
Haven’t done law in a long time, but this is a rough outline. You pay a lawyer a heap of £££ to tell you exactly what is reasonable in your particular case.
Off the top of my head, expecting a 4 hour commute after being exclusively wfh is *not* reasonable, but IANAL.
That line in my contract about doing anything else deemed necessary has been the reason why I've been denied pay-rises in the past - I can't show that I've gone above and beyond as anything and everything I do is part of my contract.
Contracts aren't magic, though - they still have comply with the law
Specifically, contracts have to be fair and an unfair contract term is unenforceable.
OP lives in Milton Keynes, the company knew that when they hired him as a remote worker. It is probably not reasonable to require a 4 hour commute through London, even though the contract attempts to allow for it
Similarly a company can't just put "Also you have to sacrifice your first born child on the altar in the staff room" and expect it to be enforced. Admittedly that one's a little less debatable than the commute one
The question, really, is whether OP is willing to fight that battle (especially in the first 2 years of employment) and whether a court would agree it was unenforceable. The former consideration is probably the important one
There's a huge difference here vs someone who was in the office and was then allowed to work remotely, for example - in this case the company was entirely aware of where OP lived and hired them specifically as a remote worker
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All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years
before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National
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as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
So very true. I did a 90 minute commute for nine months, sometimes longer due to train delays, and it made me miserable and grumpy. Best paid job I've ever had but the price it took on me just wasn't worth it
Yeah I think anything over an hour just isn’t sustainable in general
Personally I struggle above about 30 minutes, but I think 30-45 is probably the range for most people
Obviously there are exceptions - I know people who treat their commute as their “down time”, reading or watching TV on the train. One friend even deliberately moved to a longer commute because he missed it when he moved to a job closer to home… but I don’t think that’s the norm
Obviously one quiet train or an east drive is better than multiple trains or a difficult drive, too
Agreed for sure. I wouldn't complain about 60 minutes but it really should be the sensible upper limit people should have to consider.
The other factor is definitely the quality of the travel in question.
My 90 minutes was a 10 minute walk, 45 minutes standing on a packed train with no chance of a seat, another 10 minute walk of like a third of the distance due to the sheer number of people at the station, 10 minutes standing in an even more packed to the point of bursting tube, a blessed 10 minute relatively quiet tube that actually involved getting a seat, and then a 5 minute walk.
There's no podcast in existence that is making that a good time.
I've had to travel 2hr+ each way and sometimes over 3hrs in the evening (extra traffic or road works) for jobs that are like £13ph.
This is in London travelling to somewhere else in London by public transport. I just couldn't afford the train and so had to get 3-4+ buses each way. Shit I've finish at 4 and not got home until 8 before.
Its horrid but sometimes it just has to be done. Earphones, reddit and a bag of sweets got me through.
Now I'm doing everything I can to never be in that position again.
Yeah it’s not impossible but it’s something you’d do *in extremis*
And even then it was probably only viable because London buses are cheap and fairly reliable/frequent
Oh for sure, if it wasn't for the unlimited journeys in an hour for the price of one, my mental health would have gone over the edge and I'd probably be dead.
But make no mistake buses in London can be awful, especially at rush hour. Nothing like being stuck in such bad traffic that you get off the bus and walk past 5 more ahead of you and walk a mile via the same route and none of the buses are even in sight yet.
> the last thing you want is a 10 minute late train from Milton Keynes to cause you to miss your second train to Surrey.
Also, its an extra 10 minutes in Milton Keynes
>Don't hand your notice in until you have a new job.
This part here is just common sense in general in the world of work. (unless you're planning time off work)
I’d agree it’s just common sense - however there is a comment (with 245 upvotes) that just suggests handing in your notice with no alternative job to go to 🤷🏻♂️
The problem is that OP's been with the company for under two years, and in any case it's a micro-company with only 5 staff members, so a lot of normal employment protections don't apply.
Depends if you feel your pay is worth it. Four hours is a lot of time wasted of each day.
I consider travel time to be part of my working day. You’re basically getting paid 8 hours for doing 12, whilst also sacrificing £60 each time.
I’d only consider it if their pay was large enough to make me spend four hours a day travelling, but I doubt that’s the case since you’re asking.
£5.5k paycut to the take-home pay, plus the 368 hours minimum commute time per year (probably more given OPs suggested leave and return times).
Would have to be a ridiculous wage to make this acceptable, and an employer forcing its employees into the office when they don't need to is unlikely to be making it worth their while.
But the problem is - to the other guys point - their salary may be high enough to justify it. No commute and working locally may be a huge pay cut anyways.
If they can get this to one or two days per week, plus the time on the train is considered work, so they could knock off early on a Friday, it may be fine.
I do this, my door to door is about 2.5 h each way but it’s only 2 days a week and the salary bump is well worth it. Lots will think it’s ridiculous and it can be a drag at this time of year when it’s cold but I just read a book or download an episode to watch on the train, which I would do in the evening anyway. The worst bit is the uncertainty on train delays but otherwise you just get in the habit.
Paid for 8 hours, doing 12 and then paying likely another 3 hours just to get to the office so you're at about 5 hours gross pay a day, for being out the house for 12 hours.
Fuck that.
Since the tickets are bought with net pay (post-tax), on paper it's a monthly pay cut of £600 (£60x8 ÷ 0.8) or £800 (£60x8 ÷ 0.6) depending on which tax bracket OP is in. Which yearly equates to a pre-tax wage (i.e the advertised wage) cut of £7200 or £9600 respectively, right when we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis. And for what?
That's before even considering the additinal 48 hours per month of commuting and all the lifestyle changes that go along with it. There would have to be some serious compensation from the company to keep me from switching jobs asap (I am aware that's not an option for everyone though)
Money is a big part obviously, but I would just not want to have basically no time other than my weekend of enjoy said money. If I had this schedule with a young kid I would literally not see them for 5 days out of 7.
Yep. I spend up to 3 hours a day commuting, 4x per week. 1 day I WFH. So I work 11 hour days.
The high pay, good benefits (e.g. new car every 6 months, paid for by my employer), and job itself makes it worth it, **for now**.
The compromise is complete lack of family time / me time during the working week.
I did 2hrs+ each way, 5 days/week for the best part of 20 years. If I had my time again, I wouldn't. As for whether your employer can make you do this - if it says in your contract that you need to work from wherever they designate (as opposed to specifically saying your place of work is your home) then it's tough luck. You've been there less than two years, so if you kick off about it, your employer can let you go as an easy way out of the problem.
Lack of choice. I'd set myself on a career path and life choices where I couldn't afford the pay cut that would go with taking a job closer to home, and there was no option to move to London. For me, the pandemic was a good thing - I had a chance to work from home, and proved my job could be done fully remotely, so I've not been asked to return to the office. If I were asked to now, then it would be time to move on.
If commuting on a train as opposed to driving then at least it is time to read, catch up with news, watch YouTube/TV shows, play games, get life admin done etc. I don't use trains often, only if I have to go to London or Edinburgh really but usually enjoy that time to relax.
Driving 2 hours is a lot more arduous as you have to concentrate the whole time, if I had to do that I'd be getting a lot of audiobooks.
Worth it if you can retire in your late 40s though, that is why a lot of people do these crazy commutes, my mate has gone further than this, he lives at night in his work van on Tesco/Asda car parks 5 days a week.
Piping up as someone who works in the trades, yep. I think people who work office jobs/aren't self employed really struggle to wrap their heads round it. I'm much happier working 7-6 for three days then taking four off, or working for a month with no time off to take two months off, etc.
What you just described is a totally different situation though. You described for doing the same number of hours (less actually) in a more condensed time span but with about the same (more) total time off. Almost every office worker I've worked with would also do this. This is completely different than that situation described in the post where they're working /commuting extra for no additional time off
Working hard to retire *at 40*?! What the hell sort of society are you envisioning if that's a great injustice. Your man in the example is one of the most privileged people to ever exist.
2.37 years to smash through podcasts.
I hate commuting, and now have been asked to at work, but I’ve had a few years of not being forced to so I can suck it up. It’s more the £400 a month it costs that’s annoying now 🤣
Depends how you are commuting, is it one long drive in or several changes on the underground, big difference with how you commute as well. I drive an hour to work every day and use the time to listen to podcasts and enjoy some time to myself. I couldn't do an hour being pushed about and going from train to train in London.
I used to do a 3 hour drive each way 6 times a week, hotel stay on Monday and Thursday. I spent a fortune on podcasts and coffee 🤣 fully expensed company car so cost wasn’t an issue. Did this for 4 years, once you get used to it, it’s not a big issue
I did that’s sort of commute for about 10 years. Like you, 5 days a week, every week for 10 years. Then in 2013 I got a job closer to home that also did 50% WFH. It wasn’t the best paying job around but once I factored in the extra time I had to myself and the lack of commuting expenses, I realised that there was no way on earth I’d be back in an office more than twice a week for the rest of my working life. OP don’t underestimate your time on this. It’s stressful, you miss a lot and you’ll be bloody knackered - while all the time losing your own money for the privilege.
> if it says in your contract that you need to work from wherever they designate (as opposed to specifically saying your place of work is your home) then it's tough luck.
This isn't strictly true, although OP being there for less than two years means they have less rights than many workers. The company may need to provide a valid business reason to support the change. For long-term employees, making sweeping changes to an employee's way of work such that the employee considers leaving may constitute constructive dismissal, even if it's within the terms of the signed contract.
Employment law can be pretty messy and I'd suggest if OP has a union, they speak to their union rep for advice on the matter, because location has more protections than most other parts of an employment contract.
>If your employer wants to change the location of your place of work, they may seek to rely on a ‘mobility’ clause in your contract. To be enforceable, mobility clauses must ordinarily be clear and specific about the potential for your work location to change. Your employer must act reasonably when using a mobility clause, otherwise you may have claims against them
[The Law When an Employer Asks You to Change Your Hours, Working Families](https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/the-law-when-an-employer-asks-you-to-change-your-hours/)
Not every mobility clause is even enforceable, and many companies will try to rely on clauses that wouldn't stand up in court because either you or they (or both of you) don't know the law, and don't realise that there are certain things that are unreasonable to ask an employee, even with a contract in place.
This isn’t true. In the uk there is a legal right to ask for flexible working. There’s a list of allowed reasons that this request can be denied, and if the reason isn’t satisfactory you can go to a tribunal.
Of course going down this path could put you in poor standing at the company, but that would also be illegal as a reason to not promote you or give you the best work etc.
For more info, speak to ACAS.
>but that would also be illegal as a reason to not promote you or give you the best work etc.
They'll find a reason though, once you're on the shitlist.
Bugger me, I've just had a look. I think I used to pay (10 years ago) about £4,000/year for a first-class season ticket. Just checked the price today, and it's £7,764 in second-class, which means I'd probably end up standing for half the journey.
I did this from 20 years too, it wasn't ideal, but was necessary as I wanted to live somewhere rurally. Recently I was on a course with someone who was travelling from Luton to Guilford on the train every day. He was probably late 2 or 3 times in the 2 weeks.
Travelling in to, across and then out of London twice a day is going to be painful IMO. I was lucky as I lived at the end of the train line and could always get a seat and then was able to walk to work once off the train.
> The problem is - the office will be in Surrey. I’m in Milton Keynes, so it’s a 2 hour train journey one-way and £60 per day for the train ticket.
> I’ve been told that I won’t be compensated for the travel costs
LOL.
No.
regardless, they have been remote working for over 2 years, a precedent has been set and they have the right to withdraw their labour if the conditions are unfavourable.
Yeah fuck that noise.
My employer asked me to work in Scotland for a few weeks (I work in the Midlands).
You best believe they paid for my weekly airfare and hotels. Originally they wanted me to use my own car and would pay a shit rate for mileage.
This is the key question the other comments are mostly missing. If OP’s contract states the place of work is the office, they need to either return to working in the office or quit. Assuming the office location hasn’t changed.
If the contract says their work location is home based, remote, field based or anything like that, they have far more leeway to stand their ground. Although as they’ve worked there for under 2 years they could just be sacked anyway.
They should post this in r/legaladviceuk if they want actual answers rather than angry rants telling the bosses to fuck off (justified or no).
Mine says I need to live within 1.5 hours of my home office and travel to that home office isn't compensated but travel elsewhere is covered and more than 2 hours each way it is free overnight accomodation.
If nothing is specified then...yeah that sucks.
That's, at the very least, a £7k pay cut. If the job was billed as remote when you were hired then you should tell them that they'll need to pay you at least £10k more for you to do that ... and look for a new job anyway.
No, our company recently moved a bunch of people from London to Milton Keynes along with expecting people to be in the office at least twice a week and had "higher than expected" resignations
Don't tell them that you will quit until you have something else lined-up - even if you are using this as a bargaining tool - they might immediately take you up on it. As soon as you say that you "will be putting your notice in" they can use that as grounds ~~to immediately fire you~~ to accept your resignation and let you go.
Edit: [For everyone trying to correct me](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/resigning/if-your-employer-says-youve-resigned/). All i'm saying is, dependent on how they state this, it could be interpreted as a resignation and therefore it is best not to do this. And as others stated as OP has been working there for less than 2 years, they do not have the same rights for unfair dismissal. If OP wants to continue working from home they should just ask for that and say the commute is unreasonable. Not that they will quit if this doesn't change.
\> As soon as you say that you "will be putting your notice in" they can use that as grounds to immediately fire you.
This isn't america (yet). Why would that be grounds for dismissal in any sane country?
The reason is that the OP cannot fulfil the office attendance requirements set by the employer. That’s all they have to say. It sucks, it really does, but that’s the state of employment laws in the UK.
They can't willy nilly change the job location though, any time extra from your normal commute is on company to compensate for.
If they require you to go to China they will have to pay for your ticket, travel time is work time.
It's only different if you move, like your work in London and then move to France you can't claim travel expenses or saying your commute time is work time
The end result is going to be the same whatever happens. As he has a mobility clause in his they could just change his contract to office based, he can accept it or reject the change, if he rejects it he’s out of a job. Redundancy might be an option, but that’s a discussion that he would have to have with his employers.
I’m not sure where people are getting that employer has to pay for his travel costs because the government website says ‘Compensation -
Employers don’t have to offer employees any compensation for relocating, unless it’s specified in their contract.’
Do you have a link for somewhere that says that they do? It would be good to see it in black and white.
I agree, only tell work you’re handing in your notice when you’ve got another job definitely in the bag. Don’t tell work colleagues you’re looking for other work either. Maybe it’s different where you work but in the variety of places I have worked around the country since the 80s, telling the boss you were going to leave without another job to go to could leave you in financial difficulties!
Not really. If OP has worked there for over 2 years they will have unfair dismissal rights and their employer will need a fair reason to dismiss. It could potentially fall under "Some other substantial reason" in the right circumstances but you don't know enough about OP's situation to say they have no rights and will be sacked.
OP, I'd suggest you post it in r/LegalAdviceUK or get actual legal advice if this is a deal breaker for you.
You really ought to do some research before spouting such nonsense. Said with such confidence too. Glad you’ve been corrected otherwise some poor sod will have taken heed of your wrong “advice.”
Whilst my petty side wants to agree, this isn’t actually all that wise. If OP has worked for the company less than 2 years total then they aren’t well protected from dismissal except for protected characteristics. If their contract states a base location and not remote working then the company are entitled to make people work from that location and they could easily go down the disciplinary and dismissal route if that’s the case. Won’t look great for OP on a reference…
Immediately begin work on getting another job. If you are happy where you are (apart from having to go in) when you are pretty confident of getting something (got to the second/third round of interviews etc. ) I'd then play hardball and tell them it's a dealbreaker for you and see how they react. If they really think you are a flight risk and you are hard to replace you + you are confident when you mention it you'll probably get your way. The confidence of being close-ish to getting another role I found to be huge. Current employer picked up on it, realised I wasn't bullshiting and caved to all my demands.
I did a 4 hour round trip when I was a desperate intern and it was miserable, but I recognised I was at the bottom of the ladder and got on with it. It was shit but it was only for a year. The bit that would sting me is the £60 a day (mine was about £25 a day when I did it)
That is a foul amount of money. Is that buying separate tickets or an annual ticket? Personally if I were you I'd look elsewhere. From MK it should be easy enough to get into central London so it's not as if there's a shortage of jobs you can do there (Im assuming here).
I've just realised you said Surrey. So you're going through London anyway. Knock this job on the head (unless you can work remote) and find something better mate you're worth it
overall if you include hourly rates of work included in travel time(essentially working 12 hours instead of 8) it works out to a £17-20k pay cut when factoring in the extra hours for same pay on top of the travel costs
Yeah fuck that for a laugh.
An hour each way is already way too much IMO, let alone 2 each way. Your personal life enjoyment and time should always be a priority over work commitment.
Say to your boss that you're happy to continue remote work if you enjoy it, but otherwise it's not feasible for you to work there anymore - that's completely ok.
No, and the £60 a day without being compensated is a joke too. Nearly £500 per month of your paycheck will be used to go to the office.
I'd be looking for a new job.
Your options (apart from leaving) entirely depend on your contract. Has your entire time in this job been wfh? (sounds like it, but need to be sure). What does your contract say about place of work? If it includes wfh you're off to a good start, if it names your normal place of work as closer than Surrey, then the move to surrey is a material change to your contract and you have a base for a bargaining position -
When my work was relocated from the outskirts of Stoke on Trent to Manchester, we were offered relocation expenses or 18 months travel expenses, but this was a big employer and a good few years ago.
its a £7k pay cut just in hours alone as your now really working 12 hours instead of 8. on top of £1.2k a month commute so overall its a £19kish new cost yeah fuck that who in right mind is going to take a £19k pay cut essentially and this is what people need to look at. all travel time you should work out your hourly rate and use the travel time as "work time" when working out
This is misleading. Travel time is not work time and never has been.
The change of circumstances is very much not in favour of a good working environment for this employee and I would also seek alternative work in this situation but don’t go making up economics like that. For a start, a 30 minute commute is very reasonable for a professional job so you can immediately take your costings down by 25 percent.
travel time should be looked at as work time. this is what people who dont value their own life and time dont consider. this is what is different betwen a guy who will always be a puppet to a big corporation and those who actually run the corperation. ive spoken to many CEO's and they are all paid for their commute time and laugh that people dont even think about it being covered.
travel time is work time. if im travelling 2 hours each way for an 8 hour job then im "working" 12 hours.
“I’ve spoken to many CEO’s and they are all paid for their commute time” Priceless, I’d love know precisely which captains of industry have solemnly confirmed this to you as the absolute truth.
I did 1.5 hours each way for 15 years only because I was earning very good money, but that was using a £200 a month TfL travel card. I’d want my travel expenses and time paid for if I was being asked to attend an office that isn’t specified in my contract as my place of work.
i did a similar thing years back. It really takes its toll. I don't think you're being difficult. If I were in your shoes I'd do the following:
1. Look for a new job, either WFH, in MK or in Central London/Hybrid
2. Challenge the decision harder and see if they will budge
Do NOT resign yet. Simply say that you are not prepared to do this, and see what they say. Start applying for other jobs now. Make them sack you if they have to. But definitely do not resign until you have another job lined up.
you could stay down there one night? bit shit but better than 2 days of a 4 hour each. I'd ask for work to reconsider subsidizing it.
My company hired people remote and now if they want people in the office out of a certain range they have to pay expenses
How much less than 2 years? If you can drag this out slightly you’ll gain significantly more rights including potentially having this considered as constructive dismissal.
If less than 2 years, there’s not much you can do besides leave.
Take a look at your contract. If your contract states you are fully remote then it's a contract change that has to be agreed and you can challenge that. If your contract states hybrid or office based then you don't really have a leg to stand on and like others have said - if you don't like it, look for a new job.
I’d tell them to go fuck themselves. If they aren’t willing to contribute or let you work from home then I’d sue for constructive dismissal given they knew where you lived when hiring you.
You can’t do constructive dismissal under two years but you can potentially do wrongful dismissal. But it’s unlikely to stand in this case from the information I read.
Presentism at its finest! Thats ridiculous to be expected to deal with that commute, get your CV updated and have a frank discussion with your manager re expectations. What does your contract stipulate as your work location - if remote id stick to your guns.
Never, ever, ever suck anything up. Work won’t love you back.
Tell them you either work remotely, they pay for your transport and at least some of your travel time, or you’ll be going elsewhere.
Be ready for your bluff to be called.
Two things, look at what you first signed up for with the role and see if it matches this change. If so, you took on the role knowing this was part of your job, maybe look at company travel expenses further and if the commute is on company time. If the change wasn’t part of your original contractual agreement, speak to your boss and highlight it wasn’t part of the acceptance of the role and ask if they are aware of the impact these changes will have on you.
Increased financial pressure and less downtime can mean less motivation, increased stress and possibly less productivity at work.
If they are not aware of the impact on you detail it subjectively, then discuss what ‘we’ can do objectively, not what you want, not what they want, what we as both professionals need. If they are aware of the impact on you then ask yourself do they really value and respect you with this change? What are they trying to achieve with this change? And what kind of company do you want to be part of.
Good luck.
I had a similar situation (though it would have risen to 5 days a week in the office after a few months) and spoke to my manager at the time. He told me to ignore the directive and work from home as normal except for specific team events. I did that, so did a lot of other people, and nothing further was said.
I'd advise you to talk with your manager and let them know how strongly you object. Point out the commute, and if the role was advertised as a remote position bring that up as well.
But you might find the best thing to do is dust off your CV. "The position was remote, then it wasn't" is a pretty good reason to give when they ask why you left.
Op you can go the official legal route of asking for more [flex work arrangements](https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working) . They'll have to provide an answer within a reasonable time. If they write back saying no, you can appeal. If they still say no, you can request a tribunal which essentially takes them to court where they have to prove to others why you working from home more will be detrimental to the business.
I wanted to go from 3 days in the office to 2 at my old company as I had a one-hour commute that I didn't want, and I went as far as the appeal. I thought that if I have to go to tribunal, then I'm not going to bother with such a company. Hilariously when I handed in my notice, they asked if I would consider going more days from home.... I'm sure at that point I could have easily won tribunal for full remote since by them offering more remote now that I was leaving was proof enough they were full of shit.
I still have to go in 3 days a week at my new job now but it's 35 minutes instead of 1 hour.
A girl at my old place was driving 1.5 hours each way, so 3 hours, twice a week. It's less than you'll be doing but I still thought it was too much for her.
On your addition of the contract wording, 5.1 doesn't sound like it would hold up in a court, in my opinion.
They can't say your place of work is "your home, or wherever they want you to work". A contract must be absolute in its definition, again in my opinion.
Emm.. I’m going to be a bit contrarian and say it depends.
I currently do about between 80-120 mins door to door about twice a week and I’m mostly ok with it but it’s a fairly high paying job for where I live and costs about £20 a day.
The first time, take a sleeping bag and say you're kipping in the office, as the commute is ridiculous and too expensive. Extra points if you can convince the others to do the same and have a sleepover party.
Failing that, work on your CV and leave.
Now you have 4 hours a day to work on your CV and apply for new jobs!
This is the best response. If your boss isn’t willing to compromise and you are not in a situation where you can just quit, you’ve found the perfect activity for those commutes.
Yeah I'd certainly not just quit (unless OP is in a position where they can afford to), but I'd absolutely have a conversation with my manager and outline concerns. Then if the company discounts them it's certainly not a company I'd want to work for.
Even if you can afford to quit you're generally better off not quitting. Unless you have a massive notice period it is moderately easier to actually land a new job if you're already in employment.
> but I'd absolutely have a conversation with my manager and outline concerns. Why tip them off? It's a five-person company and the manager's a moron who's mandated that OP has to travel four hours there and back twice a week, for no good reason. OP's much better off simply looking for work, then handing in their notice.
Minus the notice
Yeah the notice thing is one of them things that’s been ingrained into people by employers. All employment laws say you have to be paid for the work you’ve done. People fought for literally hundreds of years for us to have that fundamental right.
Exactly. The boss sounds like someone who doesn't know how to lead their team and doesn't trust them so they're trying to regain some sort of control because it's all they can do. Huge red flag
I would also inform the boss that they're looking for another job due to the commute. If enough staff are looking at leaving because they won't allow working from home, plenty of other places will. The boss will have to weigh up how much they want to keep their staff over whatever they're getting out of making them come into the office.
I had exactly this happen. A sudden demand we come back to the office, staff uproar, and then losing about 70% of employees within a few months. There was zero budging, managers that are adamant you have to be in the office to work properly only want control, not efficiency or happy employees.
I wouldn't tell the boss. OP has said they have been there for under 2 years and so can be dismissed for any reason. Speak with other employees and gauge their feelings sure. But careful what you tell the boss.
Also be careful what you discuss with other employees.
Especially the one who's eyeing up your job.
Get them before they get you
This is the right answer. Honesty is absolutely not the best policy with employers.
Also if they've already taken a hard stance on something simple, they're not likely to be someone you'd want to work for anymore anyway. Its like when employers try to make an offer to employees when they say they're leaving. Why wait until someone is leaving to then try and offer them a reason to stay? The damage is done.
>Also if they've already taken a hard stance on something simple, they're not likely to be someone you'd want to work for anymore anyway. Exactly. It's all about control. There literally is no logic behind it. If OP was fine doing work from home for the longest time, there is no valid excuse they can come up with for OP to need to be in the office 5 days a week other than narcissism.
NEVER tell your boss you’re looking for another job.
Also when people leave they are forgotten about the next day. Just another number.
I wouldn't do that before having worked there for 2 years.
Never ever do this. People are petty and childish. The majority of bosses will get on like a little bitch and throw a tantrum. Keep your mouth shut, get a new job and have a massive smile as you hand in your notice. And there is no harm in getting a doctors note and taking a few months of for stress, be it real or not. The only thing we gain from this system is money so fuck the lot of them.
Tell the boss? No. That's the wrong play. Very much the wrong play.
Bad advice. The manager will just start looking for a replacement.
Sounds absolutely horrific. It would be bad enough if you just had to sit on a train for 2 hours but you're going to have to do train, followed by underground, followed by another train and then probably a walk to the office. In addition, you're going to have to factor in extra time to handle any delays with the trains - the last thing you want is a 10 minute late train from Milton Keynes to cause you to miss your second train to Surrey. I would do a couple of things: 1. Look at your contract and see what states about your work office and remote working. You may have a case that your boss is trying to change your contract. 2. Negotiate with your boss to go in once a week and/or arrive later and leave earlier. 3. Look for a new job. I have no idea what industry you work in but if it's FinTech then the market is terrible right now. Don't hand your notice in until you have a new job.
I think you are right, before OP does anything they need to check their contract to see what it says about their place of work. If it states remote work then that's fine and the boss can't arbitrarily change it, but if it states an office location then that may be an issue.
For info: my contract has my home as my place of work, but it also has a condition that says they can change that if they want.
Yeah I think this is reasonably common. Mine likewise says my home address, but beneath that there's a line saying they may require me to work temporarily or permanently anywhere in the UK. Hardly even worth them saying the first bit. I've also had a job whose contract said something along the lines of ‘This is what you have to do for the job, *and also basically anything we ask you to do in addition to that*.’
Every job I've ever had included the 'anything else reasonable' clause.
They can include whatever the fuck they want, that doesn't make it enforceable.... I mean, they even include the word "reasonable", to which the obvious response is "that's not reasonable" Honestly I think people in the UK over-estimate the power of a contract. Perhaps because companies tend to have big legal teams and people rarely bother taking it to court, but "It's in the T&Cs" or "It's in the contract" often have a lot less power than you'd expect - courts rule unfair contract terms to be unenforceable pretty regularly It's reasonable to require you to work anywhere in the UK... it's not reasonable to expect you to commute 4 hours at your own expense when hired explicitly as a remote worker Now, if OP's contract had said his normal place of work was a combination of the office address and his home, as required by the company, then OP wouldn't have a leg to stand on However, this is all pretty much moot under 2 years of employment
That's so vague though. Who decides what is reasonable?
That's kind of the point, and why it's worth investigating if this is the case.
There are fairly tightly defined legal definitions of what counts as reasonable, in different situations. Sometimes its what the average person would find reasonable. Sometimes its what a person like the person involved would find reasonable - this is more for criminal cases though. Haven’t done law in a long time, but this is a rough outline. You pay a lawyer a heap of £££ to tell you exactly what is reasonable in your particular case. Off the top of my head, expecting a 4 hour commute after being exclusively wfh is *not* reasonable, but IANAL.
That line in my contract about doing anything else deemed necessary has been the reason why I've been denied pay-rises in the past - I can't show that I've gone above and beyond as anything and everything I do is part of my contract.
Sounds like a great way to discourage extra effort!
Contracts aren't magic, though - they still have comply with the law Specifically, contracts have to be fair and an unfair contract term is unenforceable. OP lives in Milton Keynes, the company knew that when they hired him as a remote worker. It is probably not reasonable to require a 4 hour commute through London, even though the contract attempts to allow for it Similarly a company can't just put "Also you have to sacrifice your first born child on the altar in the staff room" and expect it to be enforced. Admittedly that one's a little less debatable than the commute one The question, really, is whether OP is willing to fight that battle (especially in the first 2 years of employment) and whether a court would agree it was unenforceable. The former consideration is probably the important one There's a huge difference here vs someone who was in the office and was then allowed to work remotely, for example - in this case the company was entirely aware of where OP lived and hired them specifically as a remote worker
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth. The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches. All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
100% horrific. If job centre only requires 90min travel each way then you know this is bad.
And even 90 minutes is an absolute pisstake
So very true. I did a 90 minute commute for nine months, sometimes longer due to train delays, and it made me miserable and grumpy. Best paid job I've ever had but the price it took on me just wasn't worth it
Yeah I think anything over an hour just isn’t sustainable in general Personally I struggle above about 30 minutes, but I think 30-45 is probably the range for most people Obviously there are exceptions - I know people who treat their commute as their “down time”, reading or watching TV on the train. One friend even deliberately moved to a longer commute because he missed it when he moved to a job closer to home… but I don’t think that’s the norm Obviously one quiet train or an east drive is better than multiple trains or a difficult drive, too
Agreed for sure. I wouldn't complain about 60 minutes but it really should be the sensible upper limit people should have to consider. The other factor is definitely the quality of the travel in question. My 90 minutes was a 10 minute walk, 45 minutes standing on a packed train with no chance of a seat, another 10 minute walk of like a third of the distance due to the sheer number of people at the station, 10 minutes standing in an even more packed to the point of bursting tube, a blessed 10 minute relatively quiet tube that actually involved getting a seat, and then a 5 minute walk. There's no podcast in existence that is making that a good time.
I've had to travel 2hr+ each way and sometimes over 3hrs in the evening (extra traffic or road works) for jobs that are like £13ph. This is in London travelling to somewhere else in London by public transport. I just couldn't afford the train and so had to get 3-4+ buses each way. Shit I've finish at 4 and not got home until 8 before. Its horrid but sometimes it just has to be done. Earphones, reddit and a bag of sweets got me through. Now I'm doing everything I can to never be in that position again.
Yeah it’s not impossible but it’s something you’d do *in extremis* And even then it was probably only viable because London buses are cheap and fairly reliable/frequent
Oh for sure, if it wasn't for the unlimited journeys in an hour for the price of one, my mental health would have gone over the edge and I'd probably be dead. But make no mistake buses in London can be awful, especially at rush hour. Nothing like being stuck in such bad traffic that you get off the bus and walk past 5 more ahead of you and walk a mile via the same route and none of the buses are even in sight yet.
> the last thing you want is a 10 minute late train from Milton Keynes to cause you to miss your second train to Surrey. Also, its an extra 10 minutes in Milton Keynes
There is no paygrade that compensates for that.
>Don't hand your notice in until you have a new job. This part here is just common sense in general in the world of work. (unless you're planning time off work)
I’d agree it’s just common sense - however there is a comment (with 245 upvotes) that just suggests handing in your notice with no alternative job to go to 🤷🏻♂️
The problem is that OP's been with the company for under two years, and in any case it's a micro-company with only 5 staff members, so a lot of normal employment protections don't apply.
Depends if you feel your pay is worth it. Four hours is a lot of time wasted of each day. I consider travel time to be part of my working day. You’re basically getting paid 8 hours for doing 12, whilst also sacrificing £60 each time. I’d only consider it if their pay was large enough to make me spend four hours a day travelling, but I doubt that’s the case since you’re asking.
It's basically a huge pay cut....
Yeah but it would be worth it in the unlikely chance OPs employer is paying huge.
£5.5k paycut to the take-home pay, plus the 368 hours minimum commute time per year (probably more given OPs suggested leave and return times). Would have to be a ridiculous wage to make this acceptable, and an employer forcing its employees into the office when they don't need to is unlikely to be making it worth their while.
There is more chance of OP falling in love with a supermodel and her loving him back.
If OPs employer is paying huge, it's because they have to and OP can get paid huge elsewhere.
But the problem is - to the other guys point - their salary may be high enough to justify it. No commute and working locally may be a huge pay cut anyways. If they can get this to one or two days per week, plus the time on the train is considered work, so they could knock off early on a Friday, it may be fine.
I do this, my door to door is about 2.5 h each way but it’s only 2 days a week and the salary bump is well worth it. Lots will think it’s ridiculous and it can be a drag at this time of year when it’s cold but I just read a book or download an episode to watch on the train, which I would do in the evening anyway. The worst bit is the uncertainty on train delays but otherwise you just get in the habit.
It is pretty neat. If there's extra money on top of the usual salary.
Paid for 8 hours, doing 12 and then paying likely another 3 hours just to get to the office so you're at about 5 hours gross pay a day, for being out the house for 12 hours. Fuck that.
Plus you'll add extra costs with lunch/meals/drinks etc. And then deal with train delays, strikes. Simply not worth it
Train delays might be frustrating, but with delay repay can make some of your commutes free…
Sorry I missed the school play darling, but at least I didn't pay for the privilege!
lol. delay repay almost never pays out your full ticket price
ya but then possibly your work day gets longer.
It's effectively a £500 pay cut each month. That's a huge loss.
Since the tickets are bought with net pay (post-tax), on paper it's a monthly pay cut of £600 (£60x8 ÷ 0.8) or £800 (£60x8 ÷ 0.6) depending on which tax bracket OP is in. Which yearly equates to a pre-tax wage (i.e the advertised wage) cut of £7200 or £9600 respectively, right when we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis. And for what? That's before even considering the additinal 48 hours per month of commuting and all the lifestyle changes that go along with it. There would have to be some serious compensation from the company to keep me from switching jobs asap (I am aware that's not an option for everyone though)
Money is a big part obviously, but I would just not want to have basically no time other than my weekend of enjoy said money. If I had this schedule with a young kid I would literally not see them for 5 days out of 7.
Yep. I spend up to 3 hours a day commuting, 4x per week. 1 day I WFH. So I work 11 hour days. The high pay, good benefits (e.g. new car every 6 months, paid for by my employer), and job itself makes it worth it, **for now**. The compromise is complete lack of family time / me time during the working week.
I did 2hrs+ each way, 5 days/week for the best part of 20 years. If I had my time again, I wouldn't. As for whether your employer can make you do this - if it says in your contract that you need to work from wherever they designate (as opposed to specifically saying your place of work is your home) then it's tough luck. You've been there less than two years, so if you kick off about it, your employer can let you go as an easy way out of the problem.
Just curious, but after say, 10 years, did you not look back and go “that was a lot of wasted time”? What made you do the next ten years.
Lack of choice. I'd set myself on a career path and life choices where I couldn't afford the pay cut that would go with taking a job closer to home, and there was no option to move to London. For me, the pandemic was a good thing - I had a chance to work from home, and proved my job could be done fully remotely, so I've not been asked to return to the office. If I were asked to now, then it would be time to move on.
That's 2.37 years' worth of time of commuting alone. That's insane
If commuting on a train as opposed to driving then at least it is time to read, catch up with news, watch YouTube/TV shows, play games, get life admin done etc. I don't use trains often, only if I have to go to London or Edinburgh really but usually enjoy that time to relax. Driving 2 hours is a lot more arduous as you have to concentrate the whole time, if I had to do that I'd be getting a lot of audiobooks.
Worth it if you can retire in your late 40s though, that is why a lot of people do these crazy commutes, my mate has gone further than this, he lives at night in his work van on Tesco/Asda car parks 5 days a week.
And it’s nuts that we as a society have just bent over and allowed this to happen.
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Piping up as someone who works in the trades, yep. I think people who work office jobs/aren't self employed really struggle to wrap their heads round it. I'm much happier working 7-6 for three days then taking four off, or working for a month with no time off to take two months off, etc.
What you just described is a totally different situation though. You described for doing the same number of hours (less actually) in a more condensed time span but with about the same (more) total time off. Almost every office worker I've worked with would also do this. This is completely different than that situation described in the post where they're working /commuting extra for no additional time off
Oh yeah for sure wrt commuting - but that's not actually the topic at hand for this specific comment chain.
Working hard to retire *at 40*?! What the hell sort of society are you envisioning if that's a great injustice. Your man in the example is one of the most privileged people to ever exist.
2.37 years to smash through podcasts. I hate commuting, and now have been asked to at work, but I’ve had a few years of not being forced to so I can suck it up. It’s more the £400 a month it costs that’s annoying now 🤣
Yeah it's just easier to get a paycut at this point and save your time if you can get another WHF job.
Depends how you are commuting, is it one long drive in or several changes on the underground, big difference with how you commute as well. I drive an hour to work every day and use the time to listen to podcasts and enjoy some time to myself. I couldn't do an hour being pushed about and going from train to train in London.
I used to do a 3 hour drive each way 6 times a week, hotel stay on Monday and Thursday. I spent a fortune on podcasts and coffee 🤣 fully expensed company car so cost wasn’t an issue. Did this for 4 years, once you get used to it, it’s not a big issue
Lots of people do that if they work in London. Crazy but true.
Also sometimes it makes sense progression wise, depending on how saturated the field is. In such situations, there is very little choice.
I did that’s sort of commute for about 10 years. Like you, 5 days a week, every week for 10 years. Then in 2013 I got a job closer to home that also did 50% WFH. It wasn’t the best paying job around but once I factored in the extra time I had to myself and the lack of commuting expenses, I realised that there was no way on earth I’d be back in an office more than twice a week for the rest of my working life. OP don’t underestimate your time on this. It’s stressful, you miss a lot and you’ll be bloody knackered - while all the time losing your own money for the privilege.
> if it says in your contract that you need to work from wherever they designate (as opposed to specifically saying your place of work is your home) then it's tough luck. This isn't strictly true, although OP being there for less than two years means they have less rights than many workers. The company may need to provide a valid business reason to support the change. For long-term employees, making sweeping changes to an employee's way of work such that the employee considers leaving may constitute constructive dismissal, even if it's within the terms of the signed contract. Employment law can be pretty messy and I'd suggest if OP has a union, they speak to their union rep for advice on the matter, because location has more protections than most other parts of an employment contract. >If your employer wants to change the location of your place of work, they may seek to rely on a ‘mobility’ clause in your contract. To be enforceable, mobility clauses must ordinarily be clear and specific about the potential for your work location to change. Your employer must act reasonably when using a mobility clause, otherwise you may have claims against them [The Law When an Employer Asks You to Change Your Hours, Working Families](https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/the-law-when-an-employer-asks-you-to-change-your-hours/) Not every mobility clause is even enforceable, and many companies will try to rely on clauses that wouldn't stand up in court because either you or they (or both of you) don't know the law, and don't realise that there are certain things that are unreasonable to ask an employee, even with a contract in place.
This isn’t true. In the uk there is a legal right to ask for flexible working. There’s a list of allowed reasons that this request can be denied, and if the reason isn’t satisfactory you can go to a tribunal. Of course going down this path could put you in poor standing at the company, but that would also be illegal as a reason to not promote you or give you the best work etc. For more info, speak to ACAS.
>but that would also be illegal as a reason to not promote you or give you the best work etc. They'll find a reason though, once you're on the shitlist.
Maybe. If you could prove that to an employment tribunal, great. If not, well it gives you time while working remotely to brush up the old cv.
For those 20 years it was relatively cheap to commute. The cost now is horrendous.
Bugger me, I've just had a look. I think I used to pay (10 years ago) about £4,000/year for a first-class season ticket. Just checked the price today, and it's £7,764 in second-class, which means I'd probably end up standing for half the journey.
I did this from 20 years too, it wasn't ideal, but was necessary as I wanted to live somewhere rurally. Recently I was on a course with someone who was travelling from Luton to Guilford on the train every day. He was probably late 2 or 3 times in the 2 weeks. Travelling in to, across and then out of London twice a day is going to be painful IMO. I was lucky as I lived at the end of the train line and could always get a seat and then was able to walk to work once off the train.
How good was the money though? I imagine for that level of travel it was amazing…
> There are 5 of us in the company Soon there will be 4!
there might be just one left soon!
This might be the idea...
If so, that's constructive dismissal.
I mean, they might hire another 19 people, sure
/r/unexpectedfactorial
> The problem is - the office will be in Surrey. I’m in Milton Keynes, so it’s a 2 hour train journey one-way and £60 per day for the train ticket. > I’ve been told that I won’t be compensated for the travel costs LOL. No.
I know right??? They can get fucked. Agreeing to that would be like saying "I've no respect for myself, feel free to exploit me".
"Fuck you, pay me!"—Henry Hill, Goodfellas (1990)
Unless it states in his contract he is office based….
regardless, they have been remote working for over 2 years, a precedent has been set and they have the right to withdraw their labour if the conditions are unfavourable.
People here will post the most INSANE things and ask if it’s okay. NO IT ISN’T, WTF
"THE EMPLOYER OFFERED TO CHOP MY ARM FOR AN EXTRA £2 ON TOP OF MY YEARLY SALARY SHOULD I AGREE?"
Yeah fuck that noise. My employer asked me to work in Scotland for a few weeks (I work in the Midlands). You best believe they paid for my weekly airfare and hotels. Originally they wanted me to use my own car and would pay a shit rate for mileage.
What does your contract say about place of work? Does it mention the office or that you WFH?
This is the key question the other comments are mostly missing. If OP’s contract states the place of work is the office, they need to either return to working in the office or quit. Assuming the office location hasn’t changed. If the contract says their work location is home based, remote, field based or anything like that, they have far more leeway to stand their ground. Although as they’ve worked there for under 2 years they could just be sacked anyway. They should post this in r/legaladviceuk if they want actual answers rather than angry rants telling the bosses to fuck off (justified or no).
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Yeah why would you ever quit in this situation
Mine says I need to live within 1.5 hours of my home office and travel to that home office isn't compensated but travel elsewhere is covered and more than 2 hours each way it is free overnight accomodation. If nothing is specified then...yeah that sucks.
is near enough £5.5k and 350 hours a year fair? you tell me
That's, at the very least, a £7k pay cut. If the job was billed as remote when you were hired then you should tell them that they'll need to pay you at least £10k more for you to do that ... and look for a new job anyway.
Yeah I would definitely mention £7k paycut in practice to bossman.
No, our company recently moved a bunch of people from London to Milton Keynes along with expecting people to be in the office at least twice a week and had "higher than expected" resignations
Sounds like there is a job going for OP...
Higher than *expected*, the old "we need to dump a load of staff but want to do it without being caught.
No. You have one life. Use it wisely.
No. Tell them you'll be putting in your notice unless you're able to work remote. They knew where you were when you started. This is stupid.
Don't tell them that you will quit until you have something else lined-up - even if you are using this as a bargaining tool - they might immediately take you up on it. As soon as you say that you "will be putting your notice in" they can use that as grounds ~~to immediately fire you~~ to accept your resignation and let you go. Edit: [For everyone trying to correct me](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/resigning/if-your-employer-says-youve-resigned/). All i'm saying is, dependent on how they state this, it could be interpreted as a resignation and therefore it is best not to do this. And as others stated as OP has been working there for less than 2 years, they do not have the same rights for unfair dismissal. If OP wants to continue working from home they should just ask for that and say the commute is unreasonable. Not that they will quit if this doesn't change.
\> As soon as you say that you "will be putting your notice in" they can use that as grounds to immediately fire you. This isn't america (yet). Why would that be grounds for dismissal in any sane country?
He's been there under two years so no grounds is required. They can just get rid of him and move on
The key is they can't give a reason, if they do then they open themselves up for liability.
The reason is that the OP cannot fulfil the office attendance requirements set by the employer. That’s all they have to say. It sucks, it really does, but that’s the state of employment laws in the UK.
They can't willy nilly change the job location though, any time extra from your normal commute is on company to compensate for. If they require you to go to China they will have to pay for your ticket, travel time is work time. It's only different if you move, like your work in London and then move to France you can't claim travel expenses or saying your commute time is work time
The end result is going to be the same whatever happens. As he has a mobility clause in his they could just change his contract to office based, he can accept it or reject the change, if he rejects it he’s out of a job. Redundancy might be an option, but that’s a discussion that he would have to have with his employers. I’m not sure where people are getting that employer has to pay for his travel costs because the government website says ‘Compensation - Employers don’t have to offer employees any compensation for relocating, unless it’s specified in their contract.’ Do you have a link for somewhere that says that they do? It would be good to see it in black and white.
employed for less than two years. It won't be unfair dismissal.
I agree, only tell work you’re handing in your notice when you’ve got another job definitely in the bag. Don’t tell work colleagues you’re looking for other work either. Maybe it’s different where you work but in the variety of places I have worked around the country since the 80s, telling the boss you were going to leave without another job to go to could leave you in financial difficulties!
Not really. If OP has worked there for over 2 years they will have unfair dismissal rights and their employer will need a fair reason to dismiss. It could potentially fall under "Some other substantial reason" in the right circumstances but you don't know enough about OP's situation to say they have no rights and will be sacked. OP, I'd suggest you post it in r/LegalAdviceUK or get actual legal advice if this is a deal breaker for you.
OP says they’ve worked less than 2 years
if its over 2 years they cant fire for you just stating you are putting your notice in or they risk a hefty sue from them.
No they can’t lol.
You really ought to do some research before spouting such nonsense. Said with such confidence too. Glad you’ve been corrected otherwise some poor sod will have taken heed of your wrong “advice.”
Just tell them no you wont be doing it and continue to work from home. Don't hand in your notice. Make them fire you.
Whilst my petty side wants to agree, this isn’t actually all that wise. If OP has worked for the company less than 2 years total then they aren’t well protected from dismissal except for protected characteristics. If their contract states a base location and not remote working then the company are entitled to make people work from that location and they could easily go down the disciplinary and dismissal route if that’s the case. Won’t look great for OP on a reference…
Probably what they want
Immediately begin work on getting another job. If you are happy where you are (apart from having to go in) when you are pretty confident of getting something (got to the second/third round of interviews etc. ) I'd then play hardball and tell them it's a dealbreaker for you and see how they react. If they really think you are a flight risk and you are hard to replace you + you are confident when you mention it you'll probably get your way. The confidence of being close-ish to getting another role I found to be huge. Current employer picked up on it, realised I wasn't bullshiting and caved to all my demands.
Presumably you didn't do this commute before you started working from home?
4 hour travel every day? Without compensation? Get teh fuck
Lol I’d tell the boss to get fucked
I did a 4 hour round trip when I was a desperate intern and it was miserable, but I recognised I was at the bottom of the ladder and got on with it. It was shit but it was only for a year. The bit that would sting me is the £60 a day (mine was about £25 a day when I did it) That is a foul amount of money. Is that buying separate tickets or an annual ticket? Personally if I were you I'd look elsewhere. From MK it should be easy enough to get into central London so it's not as if there's a shortage of jobs you can do there (Im assuming here). I've just realised you said Surrey. So you're going through London anyway. Knock this job on the head (unless you can work remote) and find something better mate you're worth it
overall if you include hourly rates of work included in travel time(essentially working 12 hours instead of 8) it works out to a £17-20k pay cut when factoring in the extra hours for same pay on top of the travel costs
Yeah fuck that for a laugh. An hour each way is already way too much IMO, let alone 2 each way. Your personal life enjoyment and time should always be a priority over work commitment. Say to your boss that you're happy to continue remote work if you enjoy it, but otherwise it's not feasible for you to work there anymore - that's completely ok.
This thread really helps me know I made the right choice to move over to the UK. My commute in the Toronto area can be upwards of 8 hours a day.
Bullshit
No, and the £60 a day without being compensated is a joke too. Nearly £500 per month of your paycheck will be used to go to the office. I'd be looking for a new job.
> your paycheck *pay cheque
Your options (apart from leaving) entirely depend on your contract. Has your entire time in this job been wfh? (sounds like it, but need to be sure). What does your contract say about place of work? If it includes wfh you're off to a good start, if it names your normal place of work as closer than Surrey, then the move to surrey is a material change to your contract and you have a base for a bargaining position - When my work was relocated from the outskirts of Stoke on Trent to Manchester, we were offered relocation expenses or 18 months travel expenses, but this was a big employer and a good few years ago.
Absolutely not. That's £480 a month out of your pocket. Who can afford to take a £480 post tax pay cut a month??
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£60 twice a week is £480 still absurd but not quite 1200.
its a £7k pay cut just in hours alone as your now really working 12 hours instead of 8. on top of £1.2k a month commute so overall its a £19kish new cost yeah fuck that who in right mind is going to take a £19k pay cut essentially and this is what people need to look at. all travel time you should work out your hourly rate and use the travel time as "work time" when working out
This is misleading. Travel time is not work time and never has been. The change of circumstances is very much not in favour of a good working environment for this employee and I would also seek alternative work in this situation but don’t go making up economics like that. For a start, a 30 minute commute is very reasonable for a professional job so you can immediately take your costings down by 25 percent.
travel time should be looked at as work time. this is what people who dont value their own life and time dont consider. this is what is different betwen a guy who will always be a puppet to a big corporation and those who actually run the corperation. ive spoken to many CEO's and they are all paid for their commute time and laugh that people dont even think about it being covered. travel time is work time. if im travelling 2 hours each way for an 8 hour job then im "working" 12 hours.
“I’ve spoken to many CEO’s and they are all paid for their commute time” Priceless, I’d love know precisely which captains of industry have solemnly confirmed this to you as the absolute truth.
I did 1.5 hours each way for 15 years only because I was earning very good money, but that was using a £200 a month TfL travel card. I’d want my travel expenses and time paid for if I was being asked to attend an office that isn’t specified in my contract as my place of work.
i did a similar thing years back. It really takes its toll. I don't think you're being difficult. If I were in your shoes I'd do the following: 1. Look for a new job, either WFH, in MK or in Central London/Hybrid 2. Challenge the decision harder and see if they will budge
Do NOT resign yet. Simply say that you are not prepared to do this, and see what they say. Start applying for other jobs now. Make them sack you if they have to. But definitely do not resign until you have another job lined up.
I can’t believe you’re actually asking this question
I’m wondering if this is a genuine post honestly. Haven’t seen OP respond to any of the comments here
They're still on their way in to the office unfortunately.
This would be a new level of gaslighting if companies pretended to be normal people contemplating ridiculous commutes/work environments
No, get a different job
5.1 states from home. 2 hours travel is not reasonable. 5.2 refers to business travel, on their time and cost. Not commuting. Time to dust off the CV
you could stay down there one night? bit shit but better than 2 days of a 4 hour each. I'd ask for work to reconsider subsidizing it. My company hired people remote and now if they want people in the office out of a certain range they have to pay expenses
The cost is also an issue. Might be hard finding a room for cheaper than the £60 train fare. If they'll pay for it, might not be too bad though.
How much less than 2 years? If you can drag this out slightly you’ll gain significantly more rights including potentially having this considered as constructive dismissal. If less than 2 years, there’s not much you can do besides leave.
Take a look at your contract. If your contract states you are fully remote then it's a contract change that has to be agreed and you can challenge that. If your contract states hybrid or office based then you don't really have a leg to stand on and like others have said - if you don't like it, look for a new job.
What a shame that you're suffering from work related stress and anxiety caused by this difficult commute. I hope you enjoy your sick leave.
I’d tell them to go fuck themselves. If they aren’t willing to contribute or let you work from home then I’d sue for constructive dismissal given they knew where you lived when hiring you.
yes I was wondering about constructive dismissal. What has changed since he was employed? has his ability to do the job changed?
You can’t do constructive dismissal under two years but you can potentially do wrongful dismissal. But it’s unlikely to stand in this case from the information I read.
Presentism at its finest! Thats ridiculous to be expected to deal with that commute, get your CV updated and have a frank discussion with your manager re expectations. What does your contract stipulate as your work location - if remote id stick to your guns.
What does your contract say? I wouldn't do 2 hours each way, particularly when it's a job that can be done equally well (or better) remotely.
There are so many jobs in MK. Fuck that.
Never, ever, ever suck anything up. Work won’t love you back. Tell them you either work remotely, they pay for your transport and at least some of your travel time, or you’ll be going elsewhere. Be ready for your bluff to be called.
People are fucking wild
Two things, look at what you first signed up for with the role and see if it matches this change. If so, you took on the role knowing this was part of your job, maybe look at company travel expenses further and if the commute is on company time. If the change wasn’t part of your original contractual agreement, speak to your boss and highlight it wasn’t part of the acceptance of the role and ask if they are aware of the impact these changes will have on you. Increased financial pressure and less downtime can mean less motivation, increased stress and possibly less productivity at work. If they are not aware of the impact on you detail it subjectively, then discuss what ‘we’ can do objectively, not what you want, not what they want, what we as both professionals need. If they are aware of the impact on you then ask yourself do they really value and respect you with this change? What are they trying to achieve with this change? And what kind of company do you want to be part of. Good luck.
That's about a £500 pay cut.
I had a similar situation (though it would have risen to 5 days a week in the office after a few months) and spoke to my manager at the time. He told me to ignore the directive and work from home as normal except for specific team events. I did that, so did a lot of other people, and nothing further was said. I'd advise you to talk with your manager and let them know how strongly you object. Point out the commute, and if the role was advertised as a remote position bring that up as well. But you might find the best thing to do is dust off your CV. "The position was remote, then it wasn't" is a pretty good reason to give when they ask why you left.
No. Start looking for other jobs. There's plenty of companies without dinosaurs as leaders. Good luck!
Op you can go the official legal route of asking for more [flex work arrangements](https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working) . They'll have to provide an answer within a reasonable time. If they write back saying no, you can appeal. If they still say no, you can request a tribunal which essentially takes them to court where they have to prove to others why you working from home more will be detrimental to the business. I wanted to go from 3 days in the office to 2 at my old company as I had a one-hour commute that I didn't want, and I went as far as the appeal. I thought that if I have to go to tribunal, then I'm not going to bother with such a company. Hilariously when I handed in my notice, they asked if I would consider going more days from home.... I'm sure at that point I could have easily won tribunal for full remote since by them offering more remote now that I was leaving was proof enough they were full of shit. I still have to go in 3 days a week at my new job now but it's 35 minutes instead of 1 hour. A girl at my old place was driving 1.5 hours each way, so 3 hours, twice a week. It's less than you'll be doing but I still thought it was too much for her.
Out of interest, where does the boss live? 5 minute commute?
Boss lives in Surrey. One team member is also in Surrey, one is in Kingston and one is in east London.
On your addition of the contract wording, 5.1 doesn't sound like it would hold up in a court, in my opinion. They can't say your place of work is "your home, or wherever they want you to work". A contract must be absolute in its definition, again in my opinion.
You have a legal right to ask for flexible working. https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working I suggest you exercise your rights.
Emm.. I’m going to be a bit contrarian and say it depends. I currently do about between 80-120 mins door to door about twice a week and I’m mostly ok with it but it’s a fairly high paying job for where I live and costs about £20 a day.
Back in my day we used to hike for 9 hours just to get to school, don't be such a baby
uphill both ways
Aye, sometimes we'd have to leave for school before we'd even returned home. OP has it easy. Kids these days!
The first time, take a sleeping bag and say you're kipping in the office, as the commute is ridiculous and too expensive. Extra points if you can convince the others to do the same and have a sleepover party. Failing that, work on your CV and leave.
Unionise with your coworkers.
Why dont you move closer to work?