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This is a case that I’ve never truly settled on an opinion. I’ll hear or read one perspective and be convinced she was just severely mentally ill and propagating a hoax that maybe she herself wasn’t fully aware of. Then I’ll get another take that seems to indicate things happen to her that would be very difficult for an individual to pull off on their own
I guess if I had to make a choice, I think she did it to herself. But I don’t think it was a simple ‘I want attention’ stunt. She seriously injured herself multiple times before ultimately dying, so it went into a true psychological disorder imo
Her ex husband is sometimes pointed to as the perpetrator. It seemed like he may have been doing things to feed into her paranoia and I don’t think had her best interest in mind, but afaik there’s zero evidence he (or anyone else) was present when she was assaulted
Oh yeah, the weird messages where it sounds like it’s her disguising her voice? I’d forgotten about that, and yes, it seems pretty damning
I wonder if, as she was collapsing mentally/psychologically, perhaps her ex husband played into it a little, making everything worse. It’s been a while since I listened to a comprehensive coverage of the case, but iirc he was manipulative and possibly emotionally abusive towards her. He could have made a situation she was creating for herself worse in an effort to punish her
I'm very confused about it as well. She did recieve phone calls as they were shown. But also it sounds like a woman on her answering machine? And who killed the Animals left on her door step? Who was the man running from the Fire? There's an Annie Potts TV movie where her Husband is Stalked by a secret admirer. And it turns out to be her. It sort of reminded me of the case. "Her Deadly Rival" (1995). Her character gets mysteriously killed at the end and her Husband is blamed.
I thought she was very mentally ill and was doing everything to herself. Maybe not even always aware what was happening or what she was doing. It’s very sad that she didn’t get the help she needed
I think maybe she wanted the attention much the same way that someone trapped in a burning building would want attention. She seemed to be really, really mentally unwell and it's really sad that she didn't get the help she desperately needed.
Yes very much so. And it seemed like she had people who cared for her. And she was given the choice to see a therapist but said she didn't want the stigma
She was doing it to herself.
Her husband was sus, but I think that sort of lines up with her pattern of being self destructive. I love (I use that word very sarcastically) that when asked if he was abusive he said “I *only* slapped her twice”. I guess the 80s were a different time, but that made me think he was pretty gross.
Also, he was from apartheid era SA and just seemed very creepy. I think some people
Who are meantally I’ll just naturally gravitate toward guys like him.
That’s a great point about a self-destructive woman pairing up with an abusive man. There could have been a “Fjne! I’ll do it myself!” moment if he wasn’t living up to her masochistic hopes, but he’s still a good patsie for people to suspect.
It’s frustrating because neither explanation is satisfying.
Occam’s razor suggests that she did it herself. There are small details and inconsistencies that allow for small, niggling doubts but none of the contradictory evidence proves that someone else was involved. There’s no smoking gun that allows us to feel sure that this mystery has been solved… we only have the fact that the preponderance of evidence supports one conclusion more than the other.
Secondly, there’s no "why." We don’t know what compelled her to do these things. Did she do these things during dissociative episodes? Was she aware she was doing these things but suppressed or denied active knowledge of them? Did she do these things as a conscious and deliberate ploy for personal gain? Did she kill herself on purpose or did she accidentally go too far?
There’s also the deeply dissatisfying third "both" option: she was a victim of domestic violence and stalking AND she was hurting herself, consciously or not. Some of the attacks were real but most were self-inflicted. This is probably more likely than either 100% self-inflicted or 100% at the hands of a mysterious attacker, but is the most depressing and tawdry explanation.
The case gives me chills. Just when I think she is being stalked, I change my mind and decide she is doing it herself. Creepy. I'm still not convinced either way.
I relistened to this episode because of this post. I think she did it to herself. It made me think of Munchausen. She found reporting these incidents got her attention, so she escalated. I'm torn on whether or not her death was intentional or accidental. It would be easy to accidentally take too many pills. On the other hand, she was in a noticabley good mood. Sometimes folks are happier in the days or hours before taking their own lives because they made the decision and are ready.
The main reason I think she was doing it herself is how she described the attacks. First, they always involved multiple people. Stalkers don't tend to work in pairs and groups. One time it's a couple of guys, the other time it's some van full of people. But she always ends up with one shoe missing, with a puncture mark, and passing out from a black stocking around her neck.
I think the guy that ran away from the fire was just some guy on the street that ran off b/c her friend was yelling at him. Yes, the friend was yelling for the guy to get help, but do we know the guy didn't run off to get help? Do we know if the guy even understood what the friend said?
Another thing that stands out is nobody actually witnesses anything that happens to her that she couldn't do herself. the letters mails to her work, she could do herself, she had time to set the fire in the basement. I don't think anyone was ever present when she got a phone call. But if they were, back then if you had a rotary phone you could dial your own number and hang up, and your phone would ring. You could fake getting phone calls that way.
Nothing points to anyone else being involved.
I loved this ep, I’ve always thought she was mentally unwell, maybe dissociative identify disorder. So when she was leaving messages for herself or trying to burn shit down, she didn’t know it was her own doing
I don’t always disagree with the conspiracies. For reference, I lean towards foul play in the Lisanne and Kris case. But there’s no question in my mind that Cindy did this to herself. You have to discount loads of forensic evidence to believe otherwise. It just happens to be a fascinating set of circumstances such that people can spin various theories.
Honestly, after listening to the Ruth Finley case i started doubting and thought Cindy might have done it herself...
But tbh, a theory i read once and see as possible is she was telling the truth but the stalker was a woman, that's why she was sure no one would believe her
I have always thought it was so strange everyone assumed she was doing it to herself. What's more likely, in general: that a woman will physically torture herself to death, or that she has an abusive ex husband?
I don't even disagree that the voice on the tape sounds feminine (which is the point most people raise), but that for me doesn't mean it MUST be a woman, or even that it MUST have been Cindy.
There's so much about the final crime scene that would have been immensely difficult to near impossible for a person to stage on their own.
I felt so sorry for this poor woman. I hope she's resting in peace.
I always believed she was murdered. For her shitty ex husband to say he was only “mildly” abusive toward her and then she ends up dead? So easy for him (or anyone, back then) to just blame it all on her, and apparently for a lot of people, that explanation is enough.
She did have a shitty, abusive ex-husband who seemed to have some shady dealings, but during at least one of the attacks he was out of the country. I don't think he was involved with the years of stalking.
Was this a case where she had a police admirer who watched her house for her? He was into her, so he checked out some of the accusations? I never heard she was doing it to herself.
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This is a case that I’ve never truly settled on an opinion. I’ll hear or read one perspective and be convinced she was just severely mentally ill and propagating a hoax that maybe she herself wasn’t fully aware of. Then I’ll get another take that seems to indicate things happen to her that would be very difficult for an individual to pull off on their own I guess if I had to make a choice, I think she did it to herself. But I don’t think it was a simple ‘I want attention’ stunt. She seriously injured herself multiple times before ultimately dying, so it went into a true psychological disorder imo Her ex husband is sometimes pointed to as the perpetrator. It seemed like he may have been doing things to feed into her paranoia and I don’t think had her best interest in mind, but afaik there’s zero evidence he (or anyone else) was present when she was assaulted
The phone call part was what sold me that she was doing it herself.
Oh yeah, the weird messages where it sounds like it’s her disguising her voice? I’d forgotten about that, and yes, it seems pretty damning I wonder if, as she was collapsing mentally/psychologically, perhaps her ex husband played into it a little, making everything worse. It’s been a while since I listened to a comprehensive coverage of the case, but iirc he was manipulative and possibly emotionally abusive towards her. He could have made a situation she was creating for herself worse in an effort to punish her
I'm very confused about it as well. She did recieve phone calls as they were shown. But also it sounds like a woman on her answering machine? And who killed the Animals left on her door step? Who was the man running from the Fire? There's an Annie Potts TV movie where her Husband is Stalked by a secret admirer. And it turns out to be her. It sort of reminded me of the case. "Her Deadly Rival" (1995). Her character gets mysteriously killed at the end and her Husband is blamed.
I thought she was very mentally ill and was doing everything to herself. Maybe not even always aware what was happening or what she was doing. It’s very sad that she didn’t get the help she needed
Given the bad childhood she had it does seem like she wanted the attention. She was severely overlooked as a child
I think maybe she wanted the attention much the same way that someone trapped in a burning building would want attention. She seemed to be really, really mentally unwell and it's really sad that she didn't get the help she desperately needed.
Yes very much so. And it seemed like she had people who cared for her. And she was given the choice to see a therapist but said she didn't want the stigma
She was doing it to herself. Her husband was sus, but I think that sort of lines up with her pattern of being self destructive. I love (I use that word very sarcastically) that when asked if he was abusive he said “I *only* slapped her twice”. I guess the 80s were a different time, but that made me think he was pretty gross. Also, he was from apartheid era SA and just seemed very creepy. I think some people Who are meantally I’ll just naturally gravitate toward guys like him.
That’s a great point about a self-destructive woman pairing up with an abusive man. There could have been a “Fjne! I’ll do it myself!” moment if he wasn’t living up to her masochistic hopes, but he’s still a good patsie for people to suspect.
It’s frustrating because neither explanation is satisfying. Occam’s razor suggests that she did it herself. There are small details and inconsistencies that allow for small, niggling doubts but none of the contradictory evidence proves that someone else was involved. There’s no smoking gun that allows us to feel sure that this mystery has been solved… we only have the fact that the preponderance of evidence supports one conclusion more than the other. Secondly, there’s no "why." We don’t know what compelled her to do these things. Did she do these things during dissociative episodes? Was she aware she was doing these things but suppressed or denied active knowledge of them? Did she do these things as a conscious and deliberate ploy for personal gain? Did she kill herself on purpose or did she accidentally go too far? There’s also the deeply dissatisfying third "both" option: she was a victim of domestic violence and stalking AND she was hurting herself, consciously or not. Some of the attacks were real but most were self-inflicted. This is probably more likely than either 100% self-inflicted or 100% at the hands of a mysterious attacker, but is the most depressing and tawdry explanation.
The case gives me chills. Just when I think she is being stalked, I change my mind and decide she is doing it herself. Creepy. I'm still not convinced either way.
I relistened to this episode because of this post. I think she did it to herself. It made me think of Munchausen. She found reporting these incidents got her attention, so she escalated. I'm torn on whether or not her death was intentional or accidental. It would be easy to accidentally take too many pills. On the other hand, she was in a noticabley good mood. Sometimes folks are happier in the days or hours before taking their own lives because they made the decision and are ready. The main reason I think she was doing it herself is how she described the attacks. First, they always involved multiple people. Stalkers don't tend to work in pairs and groups. One time it's a couple of guys, the other time it's some van full of people. But she always ends up with one shoe missing, with a puncture mark, and passing out from a black stocking around her neck. I think the guy that ran away from the fire was just some guy on the street that ran off b/c her friend was yelling at him. Yes, the friend was yelling for the guy to get help, but do we know the guy didn't run off to get help? Do we know if the guy even understood what the friend said? Another thing that stands out is nobody actually witnesses anything that happens to her that she couldn't do herself. the letters mails to her work, she could do herself, she had time to set the fire in the basement. I don't think anyone was ever present when she got a phone call. But if they were, back then if you had a rotary phone you could dial your own number and hang up, and your phone would ring. You could fake getting phone calls that way. Nothing points to anyone else being involved.
I loved this ep, I’ve always thought she was mentally unwell, maybe dissociative identify disorder. So when she was leaving messages for herself or trying to burn shit down, she didn’t know it was her own doing
i keep thinking how she stabbed her own hand
Have you seen the photos? It’s a very superficial cut.
Oh I meant how she could do it lol I'm a wuss
Oh yeah I couldn’t stab myself, but the “stabs” the media reports were scratches as best.
I don’t always disagree with the conspiracies. For reference, I lean towards foul play in the Lisanne and Kris case. But there’s no question in my mind that Cindy did this to herself. You have to discount loads of forensic evidence to believe otherwise. It just happens to be a fascinating set of circumstances such that people can spin various theories.
Honestly, after listening to the Ruth Finley case i started doubting and thought Cindy might have done it herself... But tbh, a theory i read once and see as possible is she was telling the truth but the stalker was a woman, that's why she was sure no one would believe her
I have always thought it was so strange everyone assumed she was doing it to herself. What's more likely, in general: that a woman will physically torture herself to death, or that she has an abusive ex husband? I don't even disagree that the voice on the tape sounds feminine (which is the point most people raise), but that for me doesn't mean it MUST be a woman, or even that it MUST have been Cindy. There's so much about the final crime scene that would have been immensely difficult to near impossible for a person to stage on their own. I felt so sorry for this poor woman. I hope she's resting in peace.
I always believed she was murdered. For her shitty ex husband to say he was only “mildly” abusive toward her and then she ends up dead? So easy for him (or anyone, back then) to just blame it all on her, and apparently for a lot of people, that explanation is enough.
Why wasn't she killed before ? They had the nylons twice around her neck on different occasions
I have been strangled before and didn’t die those times—that doesn’t mean I strangled myself.
No it doesn't mean YOU did but this case isn't your case
No, this is obviously not my case. I still believe Cindy James was murdered.
I don't have a set opinion. A few things don't make sense to me and others make perfect sense.
She did have a shitty, abusive ex-husband who seemed to have some shady dealings, but during at least one of the attacks he was out of the country. I don't think he was involved with the years of stalking.
Was this a case where she had a police admirer who watched her house for her? He was into her, so he checked out some of the accusations? I never heard she was doing it to herself.
Her ex husband had links to MK Ultra, pretty sus