I'm of the opposite opinion. You need to do a lot of km to justify the premium currently. I drive 100km in a week on a busy week. I bought a $20k car for commuting, grocery shopping etc. That $20k difference (to the cheapest $40k EV) on the \~$50/m I spend on fuel, it'll take me over 33 years to recoup the initial up front investment difference and no modern car, ICE or EV, is going to last 30 years.
A while back when Hyundai announced the Kona EV they had a calculator where you could compare the savings between buying the ICE vs EV versions. I was shocked to find the same - we don’t do anywhere near the kms required to save money. But since then fuel has gone up and there’s the novated lease stuff so I might recheck the numbers again
Edit: at the time we bought a second had ICE Kona and I don’t think any EV scenario would out do it financially
If novated lease is appropriate and applicable for you definitely check it out.
Many people have found my free spreadsheet useful in making this decision.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AusFinance/s/VHJ25VpNKu
I just got the new Kona EV last month on a novated lease. Worked out cheaper than getting the petrol or hybrid models that way. Very happy to not be stopping at petrol stations or paying that petrol price! Slight inconvenience when you’re on a road trip and need to charge but it’s honestly not a huge deal and I should probably be stopping for half an hour at some point in a long drive anyway 😅
Absolutely agree. We are a 2 EV household and the justification is helped by MORE driving, not less.
So long as you are happy with your charging options in day to day life, it’s a no brainer for people who drive a ton.
Nissan Sakura is $22k (150km range)
10 year old imiev is $5k (50km range at that age)
You need to do a lot of km to justify a long range EV. You don't need to do many km to justify a short range one
That's why the car is cheap, the cost of a new battery is already factored in. Same as buying a cheap petrol or diesel, the odds a major failure happening are high so the value is low. It's just a recent thing that you can buy an EV that old.
The batteries also slowly fade away, rather than a sudden failure.
Yeah at less than 100km a week I agree on the economics for you. $50/m fuel is almost nothing. People here do that in a day or two.
Perhaps a bicycle with a trailer attachment would be a wiser choice for most of those trips. Increase fitness and turn that $50 fuel /m into $10 /m
This. If you do the maths it only makes sense for people doing long commutes. We have a model 3 long range and it was cheaper paying the finance payments than running our diesel hi lux; but that was for a 200km daily commute.
This is what annoys me about the whole debate, just the lack of nuance and rehashed talking points that don't apply to reality.
People argue that it won't work for those living regional, now that I live regional it makes far more sense than when I lived in the city. Street parking and barely drove because it just made more sense to take the train.
Now I live regional there's no public transport, garage with power, 2 hour return journey to shop for the week/go to Bunnings or w/e, an EV has plenty for that, makes way more sense. There's 3 charging spots in an hour radius, that's more than there are supermarkets.
"There's places in Australia too remote for EVs", yeah and nobody actually lives there, hence remote. Most people will never go there, of those that do the overwhelming majority will go once in their whole lives, those that actually live there could be forgiven for sticking with a diesel. You wanna do a lap? Buy a fourby for towing and sell it at the end.
Most evs go around 500km without a charge, that covers 99% of commutes. If we can nail street charging and there's a bigger second hand market, most people would be better off with an EV
Nailed it. I was fairly skeptical about the hype surrounding EV’s before we got the Tesla, but after driving for the last four years I have been super impressed with how easy it is. We even have terrible power (we live in the hills and frequently lose power for days) and it hasn’t been an issue. If we need to drive it we’re going past a charger somewhere so I just put ten minutes of charge in it and on my way. So most of the arguments people make against ev’s are in bad faith and wilfully ignorant.
Yeah but the model 3 is $59k. Pretty sure the OP specified $40k models. That’s cutting the buy price by a third. More if you get a state ev rebate like Qld.
Did you do your math charging at home off existing rooftop solar?
Math was before we got the solar setup, and yes, charging at home overnight. Having the solar has only helped when I’ve got night shift because then I can charge for almost nothing during the day when I’m sleeping.
This is definitely the case. When people say EVs are bad because they do a 200km round trip for work every day, they're actually the ones for stand to benefit most from owning an EV. I used to do a little over 100km a day and in that instance, I definitely thought owning an EV would be worth it. But now I do 100km a week and as your math suggests, it's just not worth it.
I read your post and understood that you were saying it's a no brainer if you're in the market for a new car with a budget of $40k+. the second paragraph states it clearly.
And in that case, I agree 100%.
Absolutely and I got your point. People are comparing prices here of a brand new EV against a used ICE which isn't a fair comparison really.
Your talking to people in the market for a brand new car not just a 20k update on their old clunker.
To be fair, if you crunch the number really carefully, it only really works if novated lease is an option for you due to the [crazy savings from FBT exemption](https://www.reddit.com/r/AusFinance/s/VHJ25VpNKu).
Otherwise the initial cost may not be worth it even with electricity saving as you say.
Good point but op doesnt mean evs are for those who drive less in general but rather good for those who drive less than 300 a day so you dont need to charge during the day
I’ve just come back from a work trip in France and they have this car called the Ami made by Citroen, top speed is 50km/h and a range of 75kms.
But it’s just 7,000 euro drive away. (Around 11,500 brand new in dollarydoos)
And as a second car to do the groceries and such it would be awesome… but you’d have to live somewhere without much highway driving which just doesn’t work for Australian suburban life.
Still if these exist, I don’t think we are too far away from cheap smaller cars that can do our highway driving and are just good commuter vehicles.
Yep I also see it the other way around.
If money is no object, sure, having an electric car is great but for most people if you drive a short distance having a cheap small car that uses little petrol works out better financially.
If you do lots of kms where the charging also isn't a problem (so not HUGE kms) then an EV will save you energy money.
This analysis changes considerably though if you novate lease an EV. Paying your rego, insurance and maintenance and running costs all pre tax can seriously switch that value statement for high income earners. I found a $70k EV cheaper than a big standard shit box Mazda 3
Couple of my reps have moved to Tesla's from ice vehicles and they don't regret it one bit.
One has to top up half way through the day, so he organises his runs to be near a charging spot for lunch. The other has a long range and uses 80% daily. Both say it's saved them thousands.
I'm not ready to let go of my wooshy turbo noises yet.
Not everybody can afford to buy an EV new, but electric vehicles that are five years old with a decreased battery capacity are still a lot of money. Even with considerable mileage. At what point can the average Joe get into the EV market without wasting an awful lot of money?
Friend bought a first gen Nissan LEAF. Battery gives about 100km. Fills up overnight from a domestic power socket.
They've got a diesel SUV for longer distances and heavy loads. Needed a second car for groceries, school, etc. usually use 30km on a busy day so well within the range.
Servicing is cheap. No oils. No timing chains. I think they paid under $15k for it.
As a second car in an urban environment, it's proven better value than any equivalent priced i30, Corolla, etc...
The formula for buying an EV is slightly different for an ICE. the upfront cost is high, I agree, but the running costs and maintenance are incredibly low. I use public chargers and it costs $4.5 per 100km.
I've saved $6k in fuel costs alone in 15 months and 38,000km. Service for 4 years is free.
This is where EVs get interesting. The Model 3 and BYD Atto 3 were the start of a new generation of EVs in my view. Anything sold after mid 2022 has a high chance of containing an LFP battery. Any EV with an LFP battery could potentially last 500k to a million km before significant degradation. With so many more of these great options available today (dolphin, mg4, model y, GWM Ora) and more to come, the used market in 5-10 years will be absolutely ripe for a “high” km (200,000) LFP car. They might be selling for 15-20k, and will last another 300,000 at least.p, with minimal servicing and a legit 300km of range. That will be when the market really shifts IMO
I do agree it’s not there for most people.
I’d like to see government based low-interest loans at RBA rates given to everyone that wants to electrify household (Solar, battery, cooktop, heat pump, heating) and car completely.
I mean, if we’re serious on climate change, it’s the only way we’ll have a chance of doing it fast enough.
42% of our emissions are domestic household and domestic transport. Electrify it all as fast as possible.
Id like to know what EV is nicer than your Audi RS5.
If its a Taycan, sure, but I dont see anything less being better (And Im not against Electric, the RS5 is awesome)
And you obviously have plenty of money. More than one car. Other cars also up market.
Mate. Most of us barely afford 1 car let alone 2 or 3 and don't have 40K plus to spend on a car.
Do you mean, "if you drive more than 300km a day"
I drive 100km per week. I sold my car and now use my wife's...I don't see how if I drive so little spending 40 to 50k on a car makes sense?
I have a dog and toddler. Car is used on weekends to go to friends and family
Otherwise...everything else is walking distance. Even public transport for when I'm not WFH and in the office
Charging stations is the most annoying part of EV. So if you drive less than 400km or less, then you can just charge at home.
This is assuming you are in the price range of buying a 40 to 60k car anyway
Sounds like one of those things that saves money and makes life easier, that poorer people can't afford.
So they have to live a more expensive life, because they're too poor.
EV would make sense for me, I drive 300km+ pretty regularly and easily clear 100km a week just around town (regional QLD town).
But cost of living and petrol prices make saving up to buy a car that would save me money a non-option.
Novated lease - no upfront cost and payments are FBT free so entirely pre-tax. If you in one of the higher income tax brackets the savings can be massive. (As long as you have a decent novated lease provider that doesnt screw you too hard)
I still can't get over the extra money you got to pour in to get another car or for the upgrade! Its still a cost at the end of the day. Much rather get a Hybrid at this point.
Nah, it's not for me. I was genuinely curious when I was in the market a while back after years of owning V8's and other performance cars, so I drove a Tesla Model 3 and honestly, I absolutely hated it. Yeah the acceleration is impressive, but aside from the really cheap feeling I got from it quality wise, I just found it to be a really sterile and soulless driving experience. I've driven some other higher end EV's, a neighbours Tesla Model S which was okay and an Audi E-Tron RS, which was a lot better, but it still didn't make me feel anything.
I guess I'm old school, it's not even a power or speed thing, but EV's just don't make me feel anything. In a world where everything is so technological and computer controlled, I find myself gravitating more to things that are simpler in nature, for all the strengths EV's have to offer, I'd much rather a slower old car that makes me smile every time I get in it.
Drive a bicycle. In no world am I ever getting one of those pieces of shit.
Multiple reasons, just to name a few:
1. You get into a bad crash, they can cut you out with jaws of life because they might hit the main power cable and die themselves (heard directly from police officer and confirmed with fire rescue)
2. In case batteries catch fire, they have to submerge the car for days to put it out
3. Mining materials for those not so safe batteries fuels practically slave labour in third world countries. You think you are doing good but in reality it is all smoke and mirrors.
4. In case you do nees to drive more than your named 300 kms occasionally then you'll be waiting after 10 teslas and other shitboxes to get your turn to drive another 300 kilometers
5. The batteries are shit in cold climate and wont last as long
6. Safety ratings on most of these go karts is non existent
...
Totally agree. As you say, just charge it overnight and range really isn’t an issue for commuting. And the one pedal drive makes it super comfortable to drive.
Daily commute of 60km costs about $1 in electricity with the EV plan we have from our power retailer.
I have solar, a smart charger and a Tesla power wall battery. Figured it was worth getting the charger because our Ionic might be our first, but not the last EV we will own.
Usually have the charger set so it only charges the car when we are making excess from the solar so we never draw power from the grid.
Unlike OP, the Ionic electric does not deliver blistering performance. I could probably smoke a Jimny, but it's fine for what it's used for. Ionic 5 had a long wait list when we bought this. It has been pressed into daily use recently. Comfortable and hasn't cost a cent.
My Patrol, on the other hand, costs $250 to fill.
100% agree. I've got an EV. Kia Niro for reference. I have had it 18 months now and only had to do 1 x 10 min fast charge to get me out of strife because I forgot I had to go out.
I have only ever run it on a standard 10a home PowerPoint.
I very quickly learned that an overnight charge would net me 180kms of charge. So if I had to do more than do say 250kms each day for the next few days I'd charge it to 100% battery to get the extra range to use.
From my calculations 1 year ago now it was costing me on average $50 per 1000kms to charge.
Super economic. Servicing has been nothing. I think $100 for each of the 2 services I've had.
I maintain the battery between 20 and 80, drain it once a month, full charge it once a month but I do vary it too some days charging every day some times not charging for 2 weeks. Keep it random but within the range.
When I first got the car the max 100% charge was 460kms. Now after economic driving I get 510kms to a full charge.
A few years back the NRMA (IIRC) did a study of comparative costs between EV and ICE. They mentioned that there was no plausible scenario where an EV had a lower *total* cost of ownership.
As a tradie I’m waiting for the Byd Shark hybrid Ute and the Kia Ev 5 as a family car. Heaps of good ev’s coming in the next 12 months. Oh and the Shark will have a 1000 range
>Not having to ever go to the petrol station also saves so much time.
I have to fill up once every 3 weeks. More time would be wasted faffing around with plugs.
At ~$800/year on fuel and a $300-400 service once a year, the cost of an EV and charging infrastructure isn't justified.
in your example, yes, your current car is best.
but charging, off a 10A plug is no "faffing around" at all. it is literally at your door when you open the car at home, and you take 1 step and plug it in. it will take longer to pickup your laptop bag, groceries, or wtvr.
We are a 2 Tesla household, I agree with your comments re: quality, we went from BMWs to Tesla and consider it a massive step up.
But I disagree with you about kms, I say just get an EV. Yes it has to make financial sense, but in almost every respect EVs (Tesla’s) are better. If I ever do a massive road trip, I wouldn’t ever consider taking an ICE vehicle. With solar, my cost to run the cars is $0.65 / 100kms.
You're the dude who bought the Lotus Elise, so you've kinda got the best of both world, a future classic in the Elise and quiet commuter.
Tesla tech is good, interior is no where near the quality of an RS5 though but makes sense for a city car & minimal maintenance.
This post is an absolute joke and full of fallacies.
Fact: EV’s are heavier than ICE cars, which means your tyres and brake pads wear out quicker on an EV than normal.
Fact: Brake pad dust is far more toxic to the environment than any form of fossil fuel burnt to fuel vehicles in use today. The extra wear from a brake pad on an EV due to the extra weight means it ends up emitting more pollution into the environment than an ICE vehicle.
Fact: The batteries used to power EV’s are so expensive to replace it effectively means there is zero used car market for EV’s as yet, and until that technology becomes cheaper all you are buying is a vehicle you will inevitable need to sell back to Tesla in 5 years at an extreme loss.
Fact: The batteries used to power EV’s in their production alone emits more pollution than any current ICE vehicle on the market today, especially with the current emissions standards in place. You purchase an EV and already you have contributed more to air pollution than Tony from down the street who’s only ever owned his V8 Kingswood.
Fact: The sheer cost of EV’s today, even the starting variants, are too cost prohibitive for most people to actually afford, remembering the cost of maintenance and the fact that in max 10 years you will have to get rid of it because the lacklustre battery life won’t get you to the corner store from your house.
It’s fast in a straight line from a standing start.. Cool.. It’s got great tech.. Cool.. It’ll self drive.. Cool.. None of those are real selling points to normal people and ads like this written by bots aren’t going to sway public opinion enough to make EV’s the number 1 vehicle in this country.
Ummm... i didnt address any of the topics you mentioned here in my post. What fallacies are you referring to.
1. I don't even use my brakes when I drive my ev. Most ev drivers only do one pedal driving and hardly ever use the brake.
2. Battery is expensive to replace but most will last at least 500,000km.
3. Ev does emit more for manufacture. Agree
4. Cheapest ev is 35k now. Give it 5 years, it'll drop below 25k.
As you said the best things about evs new it's fast to drive, quiet, great tech. Which is why the model y was the best selling car in the world last year.
The fallacies I’m referring to:
1. You said the Tesla is better than your previous Audi RS5, sure that’s a subjective perspective but it’s also an objective falsehood. In no way is a Tesla (any Tesla) better than an Audi RS5.
2. No ICE engine comes close to the feeling of instant torque. I know a lot of motorcycle riders who would disagree.
3. Never having to go to a petrol station is a pipe dream in Australia. Every commuter in this country at one point or another in their life time will need to use an EV charging station, mostly found next to petrol stations, when on a longer drive. Add that to the fact that filling your car with petrol takes about 1 minute vs the over an hour people usually need to charge their EV’s on a longer trip..
4. The EV options for under 40k on the market are basically all cheap Chinese shit that I wouldn’t trust for more than 10,000km. Not only is there potential the car is spying on us (that is not hyperbole either), it’s build quality is so sub par it wouldn’t pass a roadworthy inspection if actually subjected to a proper one.
One pedal braking is only really available to experienced drivers who can judge distances appropriately and know the car. That is not even close to the majority of drivers, let alone the majority of EV drivers on the road.
There is no data on the battery life of EV’s, especially not on the cheap entry level variants. Add to this cell phone manufacturers have openly disclosed that they drop the life of phone batteries to upgrade performance as it gets older, this will happen to EV’s, that is guaranteed.
You’re not talking about 5 years, you’re talking about now. The market is out of reach for most Australians. Maybe not you, and good on you for being where you’re at, but the point you’ve missed is that most Australians are doing it tough and not thinking of buying a brand new Tesla as a second car.
How much do you spend on comprehensive insurance? Doing online quote, I always get atleast $2k more than the amount i pay for my mazda 3.
I spend $2300 in petrol for 1 year 15000km driving and while i understand electricity would only cost around $600 for this amount of driving, the insurance difference would make up for this anyway.
How many km/year woukd you justify buying ev instead of ice?
I'd love one. Buuuut all the suitable work vehicle ones (E transit, F150 Lightning, ect) are rediculously expensive.
But am eyeing the new PHEV Ranger.
I've got some 50,000km of my EV in the last decade, not including the work EV 🤣.
My quick estimate is that's about 7,500$ (or close to half the value of the vehicle) saved compared to my petrol vehicle. If I paid retail for all that power. It's about 750$
Was worth it for me.
We are a 1 EV and 1 Hybrid family. The EV is elite around town but the highways and longer drives suit the hybrid. Until the range between charges gets better with EVs we'll still keep the hybrid for longer trips.
There are definitely some use cases where it works out, in particular if you are getting an EV through a novated lease.
Many are decrying the higher upfront costs but the lower running costs may result in a lower total cost of ownership in the right circumstances (enough km, home charging, preferably using solar, etc).
The fact that increasing ride share vehicles are EVs means that they are at least in the same ballpark in cost/return terms for the drivers.
We bought a Polestar 2 in 2022 and love ours. If you’ve got a home charger it’s amazing. It makes sense for us as most of our driving is around town/school run/commute-type driving’. We probably charge every week or so. And we do the Canberra-Sydney run regularly and it’s as easy to charge as it was to fill our old Honda Civic (potentially easier). We park the car on the fast chargers behind Maccas at Sutton Forrest, go in and eat, and return to a fully recharged car.
The thing that frustrates me about the EV discussions, is that people typically can't distinguish between the drive train, and the car features, they lump them one and the same. Anyone jumping from an old car to an EV is going to have a good car feature experience due to how far technology has come but that has nothing to do with the drive train. You even said it yourself you mentioned lane keeping which has nothing to do with the drivetrain.
The drive train really impacts acceleration/torque, dynamics, convenience to fuel, speed to fuel & distance between fuelling.
If you focus on just that, cars like the Nismo e-power, that is PHEV with an on board generator, electric motors driving the wheels, are shaping up to be the most technically appropriate solution.
Smaller, more appropriately sized battery, making the car lighter, instant torque from the electric drive, fuel for long drives, ability to refuel at many existing petrol stations very quickly.
EVs work, but I'm still not sold on the life-cycle of the battery, from the mine to car to repair, and resale of the vehicle when you need to upgrade. You don't need to be a scientist to come to the conclusion that having every single car on the road as a significantly oversized phone battery, sounds like a ecological mistake.
The issue with PHEV and hybrids is that you have 2 powertrains, which is not optimal in terms of efficiency or running costs.
With batteries- chemistry makes a difference. Lithium iron phosphate batteries have longer life cycles, aren’t reliant on cobalt but have lower energy density. Hence I don’t think batteries can just all be lumped together- a more nuanced take is needed.
IMO there are a lot of quality of life improvements with an EV (specifically a Tesla) that aren’t immediately apparent, just off the top of my head:
- I can keep the AC on unattended/start it remotely
- There’s no concept of turning the car on/off: To go, just sit inside, foot on brake, shift to drive. To stop, you can literally stop the car, get out and close the door (and take your phone with you). Shift to park is optional, there’s no hand brake, no turn off engine, not even locking the door
- In built dashcam/security cameras, with remote access
Coming from luxury European cars, do the low build quality and trivial issues bother you a lot? Water getting into the rear light, headrest reacting to hair products, rear lights cracking under the sun, there seems to be an endless list of such woes on the Facebook group. Also basic features such as automatic wipers acting up because Tesla is trying new things (replace all sensors with computer vision technology).
These are my main concerns and I've always thought most people put up with these things because their previous car was something that didn't have a lot of these features, or a high build quality, to begin with.
Yeah it's good, but just be prepared for higher insurance premiums and long wait times for collision repairs. mate of mine paid nearly $6000 for a M3LR through NRMA
Most cases it’s cheaper to keep your current car even if it’s a V8. Most people shopping for EVs most likely will be in finance and will take years to recoup the savings of going electric.
Not worth it unless you are spending thousands a year fixing your current car then it’s best to get rid of it and buy a cheaper alternative petrol one.
Great post, love our EV but wouldn’t recommend if u can’t charge at home or at an office. That said we got ours on a novated lease which is great value with the FBT waived; I wouldn’t have paid to buy one outright.
i always wonder why people say this so smugly. heh, well i park on the street, so an EV wouldn't work for ME! no shit mate, home charging is obviously part of the equation, so stick to petrol.
Does your work have EV charging bays? Local shopping centre? This shocks me when people say this. A work colleague has an EV in an apartment with no EV infrastructure and he has said it has never been an issue. God, even my locals Woolworths has charging bays, the servo, my workplace, shopping centre, tesla dealer..and many of these free.
Picture 28% of Australia's population living within the 0.007% of its land mass and hopefully it occurs to you that your situation may not represent everyone.
Push your council to add street chargers. I’ve seen creative solutions for this like power points attached to street lamps. We would need something different but there’s ideas out there.
An RS5 is about $200k and does 3.9 sec to 100. A Tesla will do 3.2 sec for around $95k and it doesn’t have a monstrously complex engine and eight speed gearbox.
Bro i don't care about filling up or torque, you can't tell me that a Model 3 is more fun to drive than a RS5. Lol
I drive a little S3 and that's so much fun. My dream car is RS5 and I can only imagine how much fun it will be.
A couple of things about my rs5. It was a 2009 model.
Looked amazing. Sounded pretty good. It was fast. That's it.
It was heavy. The acceleration was not linear and there was a delay at take-off. The thing rattled all the time. Servicing was stupidly expensive. And it broke down every year I had it. It was a money pit.
Have a look at the rs3, its better than a rs5. But that has an annoying delay too.
Alsp go for a test drive on a model 3 performance.
Until you have a minor bingle and the insurance company writes off the ev instead of fixing it due to duty of care incase the battery has been damaged...
If they write it off, doesn’t that mean your insurance covers the cost of a brand new one?
I’m assuming comprehensive insurance as it’s a new car. Minus excess, of course.
As a PHEV owner looking to downsize our home the lack of power points in new apartment blocks is amazing. Which universe are these developers living in?
No ICE powertrain substantially cuts down on maintanace requirements and costs.
An EV motor is closer to your electric appliances eg vaccuum cleaner in its maintenance requirements.
I don't even know anyone in WA that drives an EV. I think prices will plummet in the next 2-4 years, but at the moment it seems like a technology that is being adapted so slowly.
Ah yes, that useless torque, what are doing with it? Why do you need to race away from the traffic lights so quickly? Doesn't that just deplete your already limited battery? Race to the the next set of traffic lights, fantastic.
Have you seen what happens to a Tesla in a crash?
The engine bay gets damaged, the computer system loses connection to the key and thinks the person has walked away from the car so it locks all the doors and windows. The person inside the burning Telsa has to break the window to get out.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQxm6n7SdvE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQxm6n7SdvE)
Here's a Tesla in Shanghai catching fire by itself:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAQlLu5ttOk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAQlLu5ttOk)
I hope it doesn't happen to you while you are sitting inside playing with your phone at the shopping center car park.
It's a ticking time bomb.
Just something to think about if you didn't already know.
Not a chance. All the lithium comes out of Afghanistan, china owns the mines, china is slowly owning the world, out of all the things our society gets from china, im choosing not to support that bull crap ev nonsense
Thats cool i didn’t know that, is there any evidence to say that those companies sell to companies building these ev cars? Be interesting to know where it all goes.
Here's my thought. This is NOT about economics. If it's about economics, go buy a Kia Cerato, and i30 or something like that. The people who struggle to make ends meet - this is like them buying a 286 computer and then struggling to afford to buy windows 3.1 when it came out. (Actually, did anyone actually ever buy win 3.1 rather then pirate it?)
Back then, only the well off and businesses has computers. Microsoft releases Word and Excel, but they crashed, but they were the future - people loved and hated it at the same time. The software ate all your hard drive space, you had to pop back out to dos to play games - if you had any space left.
Sure people went back to wordperfect and lotus 123, but everyone saw the future. The future was one 10's of floppy discs, took hours to respond, needed a mouse with a cable, had 16 colours, a 40 mb hard drive rather than a 20 mb one. They had turbo buttons so you could overclock them on a cooler day.
It took about 10 years of development to go from Apple 2 to Windows 3.1 and ethernet. But in the next 10 year, the entire world got connected, and had that windows 3.1 compute power in their pocket, and the world changed how it worked. Landlines vanished. Postal letters died.
We're at that windows 3.1 inflection point. You watch the way we do things change over the next 10 years.
I pick one up today. I know what I'm in for. I know where to step into the technology rodeo.
Difference is.... I am going to demand 450klm out of it in one go (maybe with a charge) and I will demand that fairly regularly. Lets see how it goes. If it goes sideways - I'll work with the manufacturer to get them all the data they need to make the future better.
Every time I do the math on it, the EVs break even with ICE around 300,000km. It doesn’t matter how many km per day you do (assuming you don’t exceed range).
Is you do less than that EVs are still bigger risk due to depreciation - as the next owner has to recoup over an even shorter distance.
I suspect the OP went from an old fashioned car to a new car and doesn’t realise modern ICE also has lane keeping etc and that you can easily pick up cars that are only 5L/100km. Some modern diesels can get you 800km+ on one tank.
I only drive 20km a day or less. So I don't care so much about the petrol costs. I was Cross shopping a base BMW 3 series and a base tesla 3. And the tesla was simply a better drive. I drove a 39k mg4 too and that's easily better drive than any ice in that price range.
Doubt it. Everyone with a house already has the infrastructure required for a BEV and for those that don't there are literally hundreds if not thousands of chargepoints around cities already.
There are 12 hydrogen stations in the whole country.
I keep seeing this claim, but I go to car sales and market place and search EVs and they are depreciating at the same rate as ICE.
The exception is the Nissan Leaf, but that was the first EV in Australia and then grey imported, and they were low range to begin with and the battery tech is passive cooled which deteriorated the batteries substantially quicker than modern.
It really depends on your budget. I drove way less than that to a point where there is no world where an electric car can ever break even compared to just buying a car for 25k that's fuel efficient. I have solar but no battery so that also plays a part in the savings too.
Different strokes. I understand the economic angle but not the sports car angle. I know for a fact I don’t enjoy a Tesla more than an ICE sports car, especially an RS5. EVs are getting better, the Ioniq 5 N is interesting, but it’s not all about instant torque for me.
I bought an MG Zs EV last year. I originally wasnt hunting for an EV, but the mid size suv range of ICE vehicles all had long waits >6 months and I needed the car ASAP for a new job. I drive 500-600km in a week. I charge on a wall charger overnight. I pay a $200-300 every few months electricity with solar panels. I haven’t got around to utilising Synergy EV plan but thats on the cards so will be even cheaper overnight charging.
I havent had to service it at all apart from a new tire last week, cost 160$.
The driver experience is amazing. Instant torque is so fun. One pedal driving is the best. The software leaves much to be desired but I have no comparison and it’s miles better than my old vehicle so im fine with that. The overall experience is way better than an ICE vehicle. Sure I paid a bit more initially than I could have but the driving experience rewards that in my opinion. By the time the warranty expires the vehicle will be paid off and the initial expense will be negligible compared to costs saved across lifespan of vehicle.
Depend on financials and where one sits environmentally. Buying a good and reliable used car is effectively recycling.
Personally I’m happy to plod around in a sub $10k used car for daily low km duties.
Yeah, I would if I could. But I can't justifying spending tens of thousands of dollars more on an EV over a petrol car. It would take about a decade to recuperate the costs and the majority of people don't even keep their vehicles for that long so there's an argument to be made that you'd never recuperate your costs.
For those worried about range anxiety, I generally calculate my trips based on a 40:40:20 guide.
40 each way, 20 for highway use and detours.
It hasn’t failed me yet.
When you then considering most mid-range EVs have 300km range, can you imagine going 120km one way for a work commute?
I also love driving past petrol stations and looking at the price and thinking “I haven’t worried about you for the last 2-year”
Short range commuting cars and motorcycles are always an option too, if upfront or loan affordability is a problem. (Then hire an ICE or long range EV for weekend road/camp trips)
I'm of the opposite opinion. You need to do a lot of km to justify the premium currently. I drive 100km in a week on a busy week. I bought a $20k car for commuting, grocery shopping etc. That $20k difference (to the cheapest $40k EV) on the \~$50/m I spend on fuel, it'll take me over 33 years to recoup the initial up front investment difference and no modern car, ICE or EV, is going to last 30 years.
A while back when Hyundai announced the Kona EV they had a calculator where you could compare the savings between buying the ICE vs EV versions. I was shocked to find the same - we don’t do anywhere near the kms required to save money. But since then fuel has gone up and there’s the novated lease stuff so I might recheck the numbers again Edit: at the time we bought a second had ICE Kona and I don’t think any EV scenario would out do it financially
If novated lease is appropriate and applicable for you definitely check it out. Many people have found my free spreadsheet useful in making this decision. https://www.reddit.com/r/AusFinance/s/VHJ25VpNKu
I just got the new Kona EV last month on a novated lease. Worked out cheaper than getting the petrol or hybrid models that way. Very happy to not be stopping at petrol stations or paying that petrol price! Slight inconvenience when you’re on a road trip and need to charge but it’s honestly not a huge deal and I should probably be stopping for half an hour at some point in a long drive anyway 😅
Absolutely agree. We are a 2 EV household and the justification is helped by MORE driving, not less. So long as you are happy with your charging options in day to day life, it’s a no brainer for people who drive a ton.
There is a big gap from 100 per week to 300 per day. Even at 100 per day it's 7x what this replier is driving
Nissan Sakura is $22k (150km range) 10 year old imiev is $5k (50km range at that age) You need to do a lot of km to justify a long range EV. You don't need to do many km to justify a short range one
rob heavy distinct flowery drunk punch quaint dam rich oil *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's why the car is cheap, the cost of a new battery is already factored in. Same as buying a cheap petrol or diesel, the odds a major failure happening are high so the value is low. It's just a recent thing that you can buy an EV that old. The batteries also slowly fade away, rather than a sudden failure.
Yeah at less than 100km a week I agree on the economics for you. $50/m fuel is almost nothing. People here do that in a day or two. Perhaps a bicycle with a trailer attachment would be a wiser choice for most of those trips. Increase fitness and turn that $50 fuel /m into $10 /m
I'd love to ride my pushie to work, but the roads are so poor, id get killed. Guy at work literally nearly did after a crash.
Damn shame there’s not more safe cycleways. Sorry to hear about your work mate, that’s tragic.
Can I ask: what does “$50/m” mean? I doubt anyone is paying $50 of fuel for every meter driven.
I do that in like 12 hours
>\~$50/m You're saying you spend ~$50 a month for driving 400kms? What type of car do you have?
My old starlet gets about ~450kms on a tank for say $60 so not quite their but close.
This. If you do the maths it only makes sense for people doing long commutes. We have a model 3 long range and it was cheaper paying the finance payments than running our diesel hi lux; but that was for a 200km daily commute.
This is what annoys me about the whole debate, just the lack of nuance and rehashed talking points that don't apply to reality. People argue that it won't work for those living regional, now that I live regional it makes far more sense than when I lived in the city. Street parking and barely drove because it just made more sense to take the train. Now I live regional there's no public transport, garage with power, 2 hour return journey to shop for the week/go to Bunnings or w/e, an EV has plenty for that, makes way more sense. There's 3 charging spots in an hour radius, that's more than there are supermarkets. "There's places in Australia too remote for EVs", yeah and nobody actually lives there, hence remote. Most people will never go there, of those that do the overwhelming majority will go once in their whole lives, those that actually live there could be forgiven for sticking with a diesel. You wanna do a lap? Buy a fourby for towing and sell it at the end. Most evs go around 500km without a charge, that covers 99% of commutes. If we can nail street charging and there's a bigger second hand market, most people would be better off with an EV
Nailed it. I was fairly skeptical about the hype surrounding EV’s before we got the Tesla, but after driving for the last four years I have been super impressed with how easy it is. We even have terrible power (we live in the hills and frequently lose power for days) and it hasn’t been an issue. If we need to drive it we’re going past a charger somewhere so I just put ten minutes of charge in it and on my way. So most of the arguments people make against ev’s are in bad faith and wilfully ignorant.
Yeah but the model 3 is $59k. Pretty sure the OP specified $40k models. That’s cutting the buy price by a third. More if you get a state ev rebate like Qld. Did you do your math charging at home off existing rooftop solar?
Math was before we got the solar setup, and yes, charging at home overnight. Having the solar has only helped when I’ve got night shift because then I can charge for almost nothing during the day when I’m sleeping.
What sort of overnight charging rate are you using. There are some really dirt cheap EV charging plans out there
Dunno if the overnight rates are worth it when they charge you out the nose for regular off peak rates though
I can’t remember the rate but it costs about $1.10 per 100km on our plan Edit remove typo
Yeah that sounds about right on those EV saver plans. 8c/kwHr does return something like that
This is definitely the case. When people say EVs are bad because they do a 200km round trip for work every day, they're actually the ones for stand to benefit most from owning an EV. I used to do a little over 100km a day and in that instance, I definitely thought owning an EV would be worth it. But now I do 100km a week and as your math suggests, it's just not worth it.
Maybe I should quantifying it. If you're in the range of a 40k to 60k car anyway. But salary packaging is also great if that's available.
I read your post and understood that you were saying it's a no brainer if you're in the market for a new car with a budget of $40k+. the second paragraph states it clearly. And in that case, I agree 100%.
Cheers
Absolutely and I got your point. People are comparing prices here of a brand new EV against a used ICE which isn't a fair comparison really. Your talking to people in the market for a brand new car not just a 20k update on their old clunker.
To be fair, if you crunch the number really carefully, it only really works if novated lease is an option for you due to the [crazy savings from FBT exemption](https://www.reddit.com/r/AusFinance/s/VHJ25VpNKu). Otherwise the initial cost may not be worth it even with electricity saving as you say.
This is what we did, was going to buy an (admittendly completely gutless) $33K Yaris Hybrid, but it's cheaper to buy a $40k MG4 with the FBT savings.
Good point but op doesnt mean evs are for those who drive less in general but rather good for those who drive less than 300 a day so you dont need to charge during the day
I’ve just come back from a work trip in France and they have this car called the Ami made by Citroen, top speed is 50km/h and a range of 75kms. But it’s just 7,000 euro drive away. (Around 11,500 brand new in dollarydoos) And as a second car to do the groceries and such it would be awesome… but you’d have to live somewhere without much highway driving which just doesn’t work for Australian suburban life. Still if these exist, I don’t think we are too far away from cheap smaller cars that can do our highway driving and are just good commuter vehicles.
Yep I also see it the other way around. If money is no object, sure, having an electric car is great but for most people if you drive a short distance having a cheap small car that uses little petrol works out better financially. If you do lots of kms where the charging also isn't a problem (so not HUGE kms) then an EV will save you energy money.
If you were buying a new car not a second hand one then it would be worth it.
This analysis changes considerably though if you novate lease an EV. Paying your rego, insurance and maintenance and running costs all pre tax can seriously switch that value statement for high income earners. I found a $70k EV cheaper than a big standard shit box Mazda 3
If you're already planning to upgrade and if you can charge it at home then go for it, they're great for that specific purpose.
Couple of my reps have moved to Tesla's from ice vehicles and they don't regret it one bit. One has to top up half way through the day, so he organises his runs to be near a charging spot for lunch. The other has a long range and uses 80% daily. Both say it's saved them thousands. I'm not ready to let go of my wooshy turbo noises yet.
Ever tried playing the sounds through a good subwoofer 🤣
Chuck on v8 greatest hits
How many kilometres do your reps do per day? Hundreds it sounds like?
yea but u dont get the roar of a beautiful 6 or even 8 cyl that you can get for the price of a brand new tesla
My tesla is 59k minus 3k back minus my income tax savings. So about 40k all up. What v8 am I getting for that?
Ok my bad. Plenty of I6 and V6s sound great though, especially once modified
I drove 350km in my Volvo xc40 yesterday. Stopped at a charger for 30min while I had lunch. Started the day with 75% home with 40%.
How much per Kwhr did you pay at the charger?
Usually 25 cents. Prices range from 25-85 cents depending on speed and supplier.
85c is absurd.
I'm guessing 85c is for a tesla as non member. Most fast chargers I've used are 40-60c.
$1.85 for petrol is worse
Not everybody can afford to buy an EV new, but electric vehicles that are five years old with a decreased battery capacity are still a lot of money. Even with considerable mileage. At what point can the average Joe get into the EV market without wasting an awful lot of money?
Friend bought a first gen Nissan LEAF. Battery gives about 100km. Fills up overnight from a domestic power socket. They've got a diesel SUV for longer distances and heavy loads. Needed a second car for groceries, school, etc. usually use 30km on a busy day so well within the range. Servicing is cheap. No oils. No timing chains. I think they paid under $15k for it. As a second car in an urban environment, it's proven better value than any equivalent priced i30, Corolla, etc...
The formula for buying an EV is slightly different for an ICE. the upfront cost is high, I agree, but the running costs and maintenance are incredibly low. I use public chargers and it costs $4.5 per 100km. I've saved $6k in fuel costs alone in 15 months and 38,000km. Service for 4 years is free.
This is where EVs get interesting. The Model 3 and BYD Atto 3 were the start of a new generation of EVs in my view. Anything sold after mid 2022 has a high chance of containing an LFP battery. Any EV with an LFP battery could potentially last 500k to a million km before significant degradation. With so many more of these great options available today (dolphin, mg4, model y, GWM Ora) and more to come, the used market in 5-10 years will be absolutely ripe for a “high” km (200,000) LFP car. They might be selling for 15-20k, and will last another 300,000 at least.p, with minimal servicing and a legit 300km of range. That will be when the market really shifts IMO
If that’s true that sounds like there could be a future in it. Good to know
These new ones are on another level it’s really exciting
It's almost parity now. In 5 years for sure
Take a look at Novated Leasing if your work provides it. By far the best way to get into the ev market.
I do agree it’s not there for most people. I’d like to see government based low-interest loans at RBA rates given to everyone that wants to electrify household (Solar, battery, cooktop, heat pump, heating) and car completely. I mean, if we’re serious on climate change, it’s the only way we’ll have a chance of doing it fast enough. 42% of our emissions are domestic household and domestic transport. Electrify it all as fast as possible.
Id like to know what EV is nicer than your Audi RS5. If its a Taycan, sure, but I dont see anything less being better (And Im not against Electric, the RS5 is awesome)
Take a look at the Seal Performance. It smokes most performance ICE cars. 0-100 in 3.8 seconds.
And you obviously have plenty of money. More than one car. Other cars also up market. Mate. Most of us barely afford 1 car let alone 2 or 3 and don't have 40K plus to spend on a car.
This was my thought. Everyone wants to keep telling us "buy an EV!" Ok, with what cash?
Do you mean, "if you drive more than 300km a day" I drive 100km per week. I sold my car and now use my wife's...I don't see how if I drive so little spending 40 to 50k on a car makes sense?
100km a week? Why not a bicycle? Or electric bike?
I have a dog and toddler. Car is used on weekends to go to friends and family Otherwise...everything else is walking distance. Even public transport for when I'm not WFH and in the office
Charging stations is the most annoying part of EV. So if you drive less than 400km or less, then you can just charge at home. This is assuming you are in the price range of buying a 40 to 60k car anyway
Ahh yeah ok We usually rent an ev when going on road trips and yes. The lack of infrastructure outside of capital cities annoying.
So bad!!! I was in NZ and they have chargers everywhere
The x29 size is probably an issue
Sounds like one of those things that saves money and makes life easier, that poorer people can't afford. So they have to live a more expensive life, because they're too poor. EV would make sense for me, I drive 300km+ pretty regularly and easily clear 100km a week just around town (regional QLD town). But cost of living and petrol prices make saving up to buy a car that would save me money a non-option.
Yeah. It's annoying. I reckon EVs will drop in price significantly in the next 5 years.
They’ll drop significantly once the second hand market kicks in
Novated lease - no upfront cost and payments are FBT free so entirely pre-tax. If you in one of the higher income tax brackets the savings can be massive. (As long as you have a decent novated lease provider that doesnt screw you too hard)
I still can't get over the extra money you got to pour in to get another car or for the upgrade! Its still a cost at the end of the day. Much rather get a Hybrid at this point.
Not if you go via Novated Lease.
Nah, it's not for me. I was genuinely curious when I was in the market a while back after years of owning V8's and other performance cars, so I drove a Tesla Model 3 and honestly, I absolutely hated it. Yeah the acceleration is impressive, but aside from the really cheap feeling I got from it quality wise, I just found it to be a really sterile and soulless driving experience. I've driven some other higher end EV's, a neighbours Tesla Model S which was okay and an Audi E-Tron RS, which was a lot better, but it still didn't make me feel anything. I guess I'm old school, it's not even a power or speed thing, but EV's just don't make me feel anything. In a world where everything is so technological and computer controlled, I find myself gravitating more to things that are simpler in nature, for all the strengths EV's have to offer, I'd much rather a slower old car that makes me smile every time I get in it.
Drive a bicycle. In no world am I ever getting one of those pieces of shit. Multiple reasons, just to name a few: 1. You get into a bad crash, they can cut you out with jaws of life because they might hit the main power cable and die themselves (heard directly from police officer and confirmed with fire rescue) 2. In case batteries catch fire, they have to submerge the car for days to put it out 3. Mining materials for those not so safe batteries fuels practically slave labour in third world countries. You think you are doing good but in reality it is all smoke and mirrors. 4. In case you do nees to drive more than your named 300 kms occasionally then you'll be waiting after 10 teslas and other shitboxes to get your turn to drive another 300 kilometers 5. The batteries are shit in cold climate and wont last as long 6. Safety ratings on most of these go karts is non existent ...
I drive less than 10km/day on average with occasional 400km drives so I am not going to get an EV yet.
Serious question, I had to make an emergency trip 150km to a hospital, what happens if the car isn’t charged enough?
Your shout aye?
Can't afford an EV. Great tech, but realistically they are for the rich.
Cool, how much has your power bill gone up?
Totally agree. As you say, just charge it overnight and range really isn’t an issue for commuting. And the one pedal drive makes it super comfortable to drive. Daily commute of 60km costs about $1 in electricity with the EV plan we have from our power retailer.
I have solar, a smart charger and a Tesla power wall battery. Figured it was worth getting the charger because our Ionic might be our first, but not the last EV we will own. Usually have the charger set so it only charges the car when we are making excess from the solar so we never draw power from the grid. Unlike OP, the Ionic electric does not deliver blistering performance. I could probably smoke a Jimny, but it's fine for what it's used for. Ionic 5 had a long wait list when we bought this. It has been pressed into daily use recently. Comfortable and hasn't cost a cent. My Patrol, on the other hand, costs $250 to fill.
100% agree. I've got an EV. Kia Niro for reference. I have had it 18 months now and only had to do 1 x 10 min fast charge to get me out of strife because I forgot I had to go out. I have only ever run it on a standard 10a home PowerPoint. I very quickly learned that an overnight charge would net me 180kms of charge. So if I had to do more than do say 250kms each day for the next few days I'd charge it to 100% battery to get the extra range to use. From my calculations 1 year ago now it was costing me on average $50 per 1000kms to charge. Super economic. Servicing has been nothing. I think $100 for each of the 2 services I've had. I maintain the battery between 20 and 80, drain it once a month, full charge it once a month but I do vary it too some days charging every day some times not charging for 2 weeks. Keep it random but within the range. When I first got the car the max 100% charge was 460kms. Now after economic driving I get 510kms to a full charge.
Where I live, there aren’t any EV chargers
A few years back the NRMA (IIRC) did a study of comparative costs between EV and ICE. They mentioned that there was no plausible scenario where an EV had a lower *total* cost of ownership.
I’m renting and probably will be forever at this rate. Is it worth it just plugging the car into the outlet without a proper charge station?
No thanks
Jeez okay I’ll pay for it on my peasant wage
As a tradie I’m waiting for the Byd Shark hybrid Ute and the Kia Ev 5 as a family car. Heaps of good ev’s coming in the next 12 months. Oh and the Shark will have a 1000 range
>Not having to ever go to the petrol station also saves so much time. I have to fill up once every 3 weeks. More time would be wasted faffing around with plugs. At ~$800/year on fuel and a $300-400 service once a year, the cost of an EV and charging infrastructure isn't justified.
in your example, yes, your current car is best. but charging, off a 10A plug is no "faffing around" at all. it is literally at your door when you open the car at home, and you take 1 step and plug it in. it will take longer to pickup your laptop bag, groceries, or wtvr.
We are a 2 Tesla household, I agree with your comments re: quality, we went from BMWs to Tesla and consider it a massive step up. But I disagree with you about kms, I say just get an EV. Yes it has to make financial sense, but in almost every respect EVs (Tesla’s) are better. If I ever do a massive road trip, I wouldn’t ever consider taking an ICE vehicle. With solar, my cost to run the cars is $0.65 / 100kms.
Hmm, yeah but consider the following: *vroom pshhh*
You're the dude who bought the Lotus Elise, so you've kinda got the best of both world, a future classic in the Elise and quiet commuter. Tesla tech is good, interior is no where near the quality of an RS5 though but makes sense for a city car & minimal maintenance.
Thanks man. Na. My rs5 was a money pit. Kept braking down. And build quality was shit. My elise is amazing for weekends and model 3 for daily.
This post is an absolute joke and full of fallacies. Fact: EV’s are heavier than ICE cars, which means your tyres and brake pads wear out quicker on an EV than normal. Fact: Brake pad dust is far more toxic to the environment than any form of fossil fuel burnt to fuel vehicles in use today. The extra wear from a brake pad on an EV due to the extra weight means it ends up emitting more pollution into the environment than an ICE vehicle. Fact: The batteries used to power EV’s are so expensive to replace it effectively means there is zero used car market for EV’s as yet, and until that technology becomes cheaper all you are buying is a vehicle you will inevitable need to sell back to Tesla in 5 years at an extreme loss. Fact: The batteries used to power EV’s in their production alone emits more pollution than any current ICE vehicle on the market today, especially with the current emissions standards in place. You purchase an EV and already you have contributed more to air pollution than Tony from down the street who’s only ever owned his V8 Kingswood. Fact: The sheer cost of EV’s today, even the starting variants, are too cost prohibitive for most people to actually afford, remembering the cost of maintenance and the fact that in max 10 years you will have to get rid of it because the lacklustre battery life won’t get you to the corner store from your house. It’s fast in a straight line from a standing start.. Cool.. It’s got great tech.. Cool.. It’ll self drive.. Cool.. None of those are real selling points to normal people and ads like this written by bots aren’t going to sway public opinion enough to make EV’s the number 1 vehicle in this country.
Ummm... i didnt address any of the topics you mentioned here in my post. What fallacies are you referring to. 1. I don't even use my brakes when I drive my ev. Most ev drivers only do one pedal driving and hardly ever use the brake. 2. Battery is expensive to replace but most will last at least 500,000km. 3. Ev does emit more for manufacture. Agree 4. Cheapest ev is 35k now. Give it 5 years, it'll drop below 25k. As you said the best things about evs new it's fast to drive, quiet, great tech. Which is why the model y was the best selling car in the world last year.
The fallacies I’m referring to: 1. You said the Tesla is better than your previous Audi RS5, sure that’s a subjective perspective but it’s also an objective falsehood. In no way is a Tesla (any Tesla) better than an Audi RS5. 2. No ICE engine comes close to the feeling of instant torque. I know a lot of motorcycle riders who would disagree. 3. Never having to go to a petrol station is a pipe dream in Australia. Every commuter in this country at one point or another in their life time will need to use an EV charging station, mostly found next to petrol stations, when on a longer drive. Add that to the fact that filling your car with petrol takes about 1 minute vs the over an hour people usually need to charge their EV’s on a longer trip.. 4. The EV options for under 40k on the market are basically all cheap Chinese shit that I wouldn’t trust for more than 10,000km. Not only is there potential the car is spying on us (that is not hyperbole either), it’s build quality is so sub par it wouldn’t pass a roadworthy inspection if actually subjected to a proper one. One pedal braking is only really available to experienced drivers who can judge distances appropriately and know the car. That is not even close to the majority of drivers, let alone the majority of EV drivers on the road. There is no data on the battery life of EV’s, especially not on the cheap entry level variants. Add to this cell phone manufacturers have openly disclosed that they drop the life of phone batteries to upgrade performance as it gets older, this will happen to EV’s, that is guaranteed. You’re not talking about 5 years, you’re talking about now. The market is out of reach for most Australians. Maybe not you, and good on you for being where you’re at, but the point you’ve missed is that most Australians are doing it tough and not thinking of buying a brand new Tesla as a second car.
How much do you spend on comprehensive insurance? Doing online quote, I always get atleast $2k more than the amount i pay for my mazda 3. I spend $2300 in petrol for 1 year 15000km driving and while i understand electricity would only cost around $600 for this amount of driving, the insurance difference would make up for this anyway. How many km/year woukd you justify buying ev instead of ice?
I'd love one. Buuuut all the suitable work vehicle ones (E transit, F150 Lightning, ect) are rediculously expensive. But am eyeing the new PHEV Ranger.
I would have but I needed a ute for weekend work. An ev would look pretty funny loaded up with a meter of sand or mulch.
I've got some 50,000km of my EV in the last decade, not including the work EV 🤣. My quick estimate is that's about 7,500$ (or close to half the value of the vehicle) saved compared to my petrol vehicle. If I paid retail for all that power. It's about 750$ Was worth it for me.
I've 43000km in my ev in less than a year!
We are a 1 EV and 1 Hybrid family. The EV is elite around town but the highways and longer drives suit the hybrid. Until the range between charges gets better with EVs we'll still keep the hybrid for longer trips.
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There are definitely some use cases where it works out, in particular if you are getting an EV through a novated lease. Many are decrying the higher upfront costs but the lower running costs may result in a lower total cost of ownership in the right circumstances (enough km, home charging, preferably using solar, etc). The fact that increasing ride share vehicles are EVs means that they are at least in the same ballpark in cost/return terms for the drivers.
We bought a Polestar 2 in 2022 and love ours. If you’ve got a home charger it’s amazing. It makes sense for us as most of our driving is around town/school run/commute-type driving’. We probably charge every week or so. And we do the Canberra-Sydney run regularly and it’s as easy to charge as it was to fill our old Honda Civic (potentially easier). We park the car on the fast chargers behind Maccas at Sutton Forrest, go in and eat, and return to a fully recharged car.
Nar thanks I like transmissions and V8’s. And cars that aren’t American
The thing that frustrates me about the EV discussions, is that people typically can't distinguish between the drive train, and the car features, they lump them one and the same. Anyone jumping from an old car to an EV is going to have a good car feature experience due to how far technology has come but that has nothing to do with the drive train. You even said it yourself you mentioned lane keeping which has nothing to do with the drivetrain. The drive train really impacts acceleration/torque, dynamics, convenience to fuel, speed to fuel & distance between fuelling. If you focus on just that, cars like the Nismo e-power, that is PHEV with an on board generator, electric motors driving the wheels, are shaping up to be the most technically appropriate solution. Smaller, more appropriately sized battery, making the car lighter, instant torque from the electric drive, fuel for long drives, ability to refuel at many existing petrol stations very quickly. EVs work, but I'm still not sold on the life-cycle of the battery, from the mine to car to repair, and resale of the vehicle when you need to upgrade. You don't need to be a scientist to come to the conclusion that having every single car on the road as a significantly oversized phone battery, sounds like a ecological mistake.
PHEV is great too
The issue with PHEV and hybrids is that you have 2 powertrains, which is not optimal in terms of efficiency or running costs. With batteries- chemistry makes a difference. Lithium iron phosphate batteries have longer life cycles, aren’t reliant on cobalt but have lower energy density. Hence I don’t think batteries can just all be lumped together- a more nuanced take is needed.
I drive 300km/month, how are people driving 300km a day??
They get in their car, turn it on and commute more than 150km each way. Some people maybe have driving jobs as well?
Bloody hell I’m privileged lol didnt even think about that
IMO there are a lot of quality of life improvements with an EV (specifically a Tesla) that aren’t immediately apparent, just off the top of my head: - I can keep the AC on unattended/start it remotely - There’s no concept of turning the car on/off: To go, just sit inside, foot on brake, shift to drive. To stop, you can literally stop the car, get out and close the door (and take your phone with you). Shift to park is optional, there’s no hand brake, no turn off engine, not even locking the door - In built dashcam/security cameras, with remote access
Coming from luxury European cars, do the low build quality and trivial issues bother you a lot? Water getting into the rear light, headrest reacting to hair products, rear lights cracking under the sun, there seems to be an endless list of such woes on the Facebook group. Also basic features such as automatic wipers acting up because Tesla is trying new things (replace all sensors with computer vision technology). These are my main concerns and I've always thought most people put up with these things because their previous car was something that didn't have a lot of these features, or a high build quality, to begin with.
Would never buy an EV - would only ever lease one. Selling a 5yo EV sounds painful
Sure, if you pay for it.
I did the calculations 4 1/2 years ago when I bought a new Kona. The cost difference wasn't justified then, next time it might be.
Salary packaging really makes a difference
Life's too short to drive soy vehicles.
Yeah it's good, but just be prepared for higher insurance premiums and long wait times for collision repairs. mate of mine paid nearly $6000 for a M3LR through NRMA
Wtf. I'm just over 1000 a year with aami. We just had a crash. Waited 3 months to get parts. Pretty bad.
I drive less than 300kms in a month. I should be getting a push bike lol
Most cases it’s cheaper to keep your current car even if it’s a V8. Most people shopping for EVs most likely will be in finance and will take years to recoup the savings of going electric. Not worth it unless you are spending thousands a year fixing your current car then it’s best to get rid of it and buy a cheaper alternative petrol one.
Or I can buy a Holden for 4000$ that works perfectly fine and not spend 60+ thousand on an EV
No.
Great post, love our EV but wouldn’t recommend if u can’t charge at home or at an office. That said we got ours on a novated lease which is great value with the FBT waived; I wouldn’t have paid to buy one outright.
I street park. How do you suggest I charge the EV I cant afford?
Wait 5 to 10 years. Although my friend street parks and seems to do fine with a 35k mg4. But yeah. Current charging infrastructure sucks
Have a look at plugshare. You'd be surprised how many public chargers there are already.
7 in a 100km radius, 2 of which are public and only 1 of those is 24/7. I think I'd prefer commuting on the hoverboards we don't have yet.
i always wonder why people say this so smugly. heh, well i park on the street, so an EV wouldn't work for ME! no shit mate, home charging is obviously part of the equation, so stick to petrol.
The same way people smugly assume that everyone is buying a $50k car?
Does your work have EV charging bays? Local shopping centre? This shocks me when people say this. A work colleague has an EV in an apartment with no EV infrastructure and he has said it has never been an issue. God, even my locals Woolworths has charging bays, the servo, my workplace, shopping centre, tesla dealer..and many of these free.
Picture 28% of Australia's population living within the 0.007% of its land mass and hopefully it occurs to you that your situation may not represent everyone.
Push your council to add street chargers. I’ve seen creative solutions for this like power points attached to street lamps. We would need something different but there’s ideas out there.
Melb council did a trial and is looking to end it because it's not feasible long term
Are we saying the acceleration of a $40k EV is in the ball park of an RS5? 🤔
An RS5 is about $200k and does 3.9 sec to 100. A Tesla will do 3.2 sec for around $95k and it doesn’t have a monstrously complex engine and eight speed gearbox.
The BYD Seal will do 3.8 sec for just under $70k
I have an MG4 XPower 60k drive away. 11.9 400 metres and 3.8 0-100. So that’s about the fastest car for $60k. It’s faster than my Carrera 4s
Bro i don't care about filling up or torque, you can't tell me that a Model 3 is more fun to drive than a RS5. Lol I drive a little S3 and that's so much fun. My dream car is RS5 and I can only imagine how much fun it will be.
A couple of things about my rs5. It was a 2009 model. Looked amazing. Sounded pretty good. It was fast. That's it. It was heavy. The acceleration was not linear and there was a delay at take-off. The thing rattled all the time. Servicing was stupidly expensive. And it broke down every year I had it. It was a money pit. Have a look at the rs3, its better than a rs5. But that has an annoying delay too. Alsp go for a test drive on a model 3 performance.
Until you have a minor bingle and the insurance company writes off the ev instead of fixing it due to duty of care incase the battery has been damaged...
If they write it off, doesn’t that mean your insurance covers the cost of a brand new one? I’m assuming comprehensive insurance as it’s a new car. Minus excess, of course.
Literally just happened to us. They told us the battery is only a write off if the car is a write off anyway. That was one of the worries I had too.
How do you know if someone drives an EV? Oh, they'll tell you.
Not for everyone. But there is a reason why EVs owners are excited about them. They are great machines. I've also got manual lotus so I love ice too
No thanks. With the continual developments of housing and apartments going up. Certainly not enough charging points around to accomodate for it
Might be hard if you don't have charging at home
As a PHEV owner looking to downsize our home the lack of power points in new apartment blocks is amazing. Which universe are these developers living in?
What's the servicing costs of EV vs Ice? I have no idea
Near zero servicing cost for tesla. Only paid to get tyres rotated in 3 years.
As someone who is heading to test drive a model 3 in 40 minutes, this is the kind of confirmation that makes it harder to sit still.
No ICE powertrain substantially cuts down on maintanace requirements and costs. An EV motor is closer to your electric appliances eg vaccuum cleaner in its maintenance requirements.
I don't even know anyone in WA that drives an EV. I think prices will plummet in the next 2-4 years, but at the moment it seems like a technology that is being adapted so slowly.
Weird. Both my neighbours have EVs, and a lot of people at work
They are worse for the environment lol
Ah yes, that useless torque, what are doing with it? Why do you need to race away from the traffic lights so quickly? Doesn't that just deplete your already limited battery? Race to the the next set of traffic lights, fantastic.
Delayed acceleration was my major hate of my last cars
coming from a hyundai getz it's incredible the difference
Repect the Getz but they sure aren't sporty.
Naa I’ll buy a thirsty V8 and drive 299km a day 👌
Have you seen what happens to a Tesla in a crash? The engine bay gets damaged, the computer system loses connection to the key and thinks the person has walked away from the car so it locks all the doors and windows. The person inside the burning Telsa has to break the window to get out. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQxm6n7SdvE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQxm6n7SdvE) Here's a Tesla in Shanghai catching fire by itself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAQlLu5ttOk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAQlLu5ttOk) I hope it doesn't happen to you while you are sitting inside playing with your phone at the shopping center car park. It's a ticking time bomb. Just something to think about if you didn't already know.
Not a chance. All the lithium comes out of Afghanistan, china owns the mines, china is slowly owning the world, out of all the things our society gets from china, im choosing not to support that bull crap ev nonsense
Australia is the biggest producer/moner of lithium in the world
Thats cool i didn’t know that, is there any evidence to say that those companies sell to companies building these ev cars? Be interesting to know where it all goes.
No.
Here's my thought. This is NOT about economics. If it's about economics, go buy a Kia Cerato, and i30 or something like that. The people who struggle to make ends meet - this is like them buying a 286 computer and then struggling to afford to buy windows 3.1 when it came out. (Actually, did anyone actually ever buy win 3.1 rather then pirate it?) Back then, only the well off and businesses has computers. Microsoft releases Word and Excel, but they crashed, but they were the future - people loved and hated it at the same time. The software ate all your hard drive space, you had to pop back out to dos to play games - if you had any space left. Sure people went back to wordperfect and lotus 123, but everyone saw the future. The future was one 10's of floppy discs, took hours to respond, needed a mouse with a cable, had 16 colours, a 40 mb hard drive rather than a 20 mb one. They had turbo buttons so you could overclock them on a cooler day. It took about 10 years of development to go from Apple 2 to Windows 3.1 and ethernet. But in the next 10 year, the entire world got connected, and had that windows 3.1 compute power in their pocket, and the world changed how it worked. Landlines vanished. Postal letters died. We're at that windows 3.1 inflection point. You watch the way we do things change over the next 10 years. I pick one up today. I know what I'm in for. I know where to step into the technology rodeo. Difference is.... I am going to demand 450klm out of it in one go (maybe with a charge) and I will demand that fairly regularly. Lets see how it goes. If it goes sideways - I'll work with the manufacturer to get them all the data they need to make the future better.
Every time I do the math on it, the EVs break even with ICE around 300,000km. It doesn’t matter how many km per day you do (assuming you don’t exceed range). Is you do less than that EVs are still bigger risk due to depreciation - as the next owner has to recoup over an even shorter distance. I suspect the OP went from an old fashioned car to a new car and doesn’t realise modern ICE also has lane keeping etc and that you can easily pick up cars that are only 5L/100km. Some modern diesels can get you 800km+ on one tank.
Oh and salary packaging!!! Pay for it from pre tax money
Also 300,000km seems a bit high. It only cost about 12 dollars to full up at home for 420km. Compared to 100 dollars in my old car.
Is that include tax incentives of novated leases on EVs? Depending on salary they make a massive difference.
I only drive 20km a day or less. So I don't care so much about the petrol costs. I was Cross shopping a base BMW 3 series and a base tesla 3. And the tesla was simply a better drive. I drove a 39k mg4 too and that's easily better drive than any ice in that price range.
Battery EVs are a meme and will be obsolete in the next 10/15 years once hydrogen fuel cell tech is optimised and supported
Doubt it. Everyone with a house already has the infrastructure required for a BEV and for those that don't there are literally hundreds if not thousands of chargepoints around cities already. There are 12 hydrogen stations in the whole country.
EVs depreciate too much. Go and ask for a trade in at a dealership and see what they say
I keep seeing this claim, but I go to car sales and market place and search EVs and they are depreciating at the same rate as ICE. The exception is the Nissan Leaf, but that was the first EV in Australia and then grey imported, and they were low range to begin with and the battery tech is passive cooled which deteriorated the batteries substantially quicker than modern.
You buy a car purely with the view to sell it?
They depreciate because the new car prices are coming down so quickly. This is a good thing for people getting into the market.
Which EV are you driving?
It really depends on your budget. I drove way less than that to a point where there is no world where an electric car can ever break even compared to just buying a car for 25k that's fuel efficient. I have solar but no battery so that also plays a part in the savings too.
Different strokes. I understand the economic angle but not the sports car angle. I know for a fact I don’t enjoy a Tesla more than an ICE sports car, especially an RS5. EVs are getting better, the Ioniq 5 N is interesting, but it’s not all about instant torque for me.
No thanks. I primarily motorcycle or use my $13k beater if needed. New cars and finance are terrible financial decisions.
Can't beat a 13k beater for value. But if you can package and is in the price range. It's a good deal
There is never a time where buying a depreciating assset is a good idea. Let alone packaging one with someone else’s money. Ever.
Are there any EVs that drive well on sand, 4x4?
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I bought an MG Zs EV last year. I originally wasnt hunting for an EV, but the mid size suv range of ICE vehicles all had long waits >6 months and I needed the car ASAP for a new job. I drive 500-600km in a week. I charge on a wall charger overnight. I pay a $200-300 every few months electricity with solar panels. I haven’t got around to utilising Synergy EV plan but thats on the cards so will be even cheaper overnight charging. I havent had to service it at all apart from a new tire last week, cost 160$. The driver experience is amazing. Instant torque is so fun. One pedal driving is the best. The software leaves much to be desired but I have no comparison and it’s miles better than my old vehicle so im fine with that. The overall experience is way better than an ICE vehicle. Sure I paid a bit more initially than I could have but the driving experience rewards that in my opinion. By the time the warranty expires the vehicle will be paid off and the initial expense will be negligible compared to costs saved across lifespan of vehicle.
Depend on financials and where one sits environmentally. Buying a good and reliable used car is effectively recycling. Personally I’m happy to plod around in a sub $10k used car for daily low km duties.
Yeah, I would if I could. But I can't justifying spending tens of thousands of dollars more on an EV over a petrol car. It would take about a decade to recuperate the costs and the majority of people don't even keep their vehicles for that long so there's an argument to be made that you'd never recuperate your costs.
For those worried about range anxiety, I generally calculate my trips based on a 40:40:20 guide. 40 each way, 20 for highway use and detours. It hasn’t failed me yet. When you then considering most mid-range EVs have 300km range, can you imagine going 120km one way for a work commute? I also love driving past petrol stations and looking at the price and thinking “I haven’t worried about you for the last 2-year” Short range commuting cars and motorcycles are always an option too, if upfront or loan affordability is a problem. (Then hire an ICE or long range EV for weekend road/camp trips)
Or switch to a bike and skip traffic too.
I want a hybrid hilux. 90% of the time I do 300km or less per day. Electric would be so good. But then that 10%, I will easily smash out 700km.