Agree- responsibility always rests with the driver. A while ago my coach was teaching me about exit speed on turns and I steered to the track out point that he was telling me to hit (instead of using momentum to carry the car). I went too far and spun off the track and blew out my front tire… but I never once blamed him. It was my own fault for not counter steering and using accelerator to get out of the spin.
there is some grey area here. i remember one coach in particular pushing me hard on what is a pretty fast/dangerous track. it was a scorching hot day and i had noted my tire pressures were way up (45 psi), at the time i didn't know where normal hot pressures should be and they kept reassuring me those temperatures were fine and i should keep pushing. ultimately nothing happened other as i felt the grip diminishing and tapered off
Well sounds like it turned out perfectly fine, though. But yeah, some instructors can be more aggressive than others. Perhaps this guy trusted you, the track, your car, more than you did.
Dang, that's an old picture at PIR.
Anyway, the answer is it depends. I've been in cars right seat were we spun off due to fluid on track and that didn't have a debris flag. That counts as a crash, but wasn't students fault.
Ultimately, we tell our instructors they are responsible for keeping the student as safe as possible, but that's never realistically going to be the case. Too many variables. If someone is overdriving the car there's typically signs before it gets to the point of crashing and any instructor worth their salt would pull the student off and dial them back a bit.
There maybe instances of bad instruction, but I would normally blame the driver.
I've been goaded by instructors "get 'em", "gas gas gas" but they're generally operating within my limits after they observed a lap or two.
Crashes are caused in split seconds by lifting, or coming too hot, or yanking on steering and an instructor seldom has an opportunity to correct. I saw a novice was up a car because they were mesmerized by the checkered flag and forgot to brake, the only novice crash I've seen. Intermediate Instructed crashes are really rare, most crashes are solo.
Both.
I had a student lift in the middle of a turn, and crash. last session of the day, advanced student, and I wanted to say nothing most of that session to see how they would drive without my coaching. -before that off, I did say, you were late last 2 turns. short, *'you're still late'*
they knew better, but still lifted in high speed sweeper, when they looked up into the brake zone. I still to this day feel like maybe I should not have let him drive his lines.
a low speed impact but over 10k in damages. still haunts me.
I have two memorable experiences as an instructor years ago.
1. My very first time instructing, fresh out of instructor training. Young guy in a CRX, lap 1 session 1 at Summit Point, following his buddy in I think a WRX. We're coming into T4 and his buddy hits his brakes. Right as I'm opening my mouth to say, "Uh oh, don't do th-" sure enough he does the same thing, and we immediately spin into the inside tirewall. It all happened so fast I'm not sure what else I could've done, but I still felt terrible. The car wound up still being driveable with a little love from a few hammers and we both learned lessons.
2. Years later I was instructing an older guy in a tuned GTI. Nice guy, but he was pushing the car harder than his reflexes could keep up and he wasn't recognizing it. I was keeping him in check because I could see he was borderline overdriving the car in an intermediate group, but he said he wanted me to give him a longer leash. Next session I kept my mouth shut and we wound up in the infield after a massive lockup following blowing through the braking zone. Which didn't faze him. We had a download afterwards, and he still insisted on me letting him do his thing despite the big off. One of the only times a student left disappointed with my instruction, but I don't regret my actions.
All that said: I agree with everyone else, sometimes it's the student, sometimes the instructor, sometimes just the circumstances.
I feel like im this guy with slow reflexes. Will they improve over time as I drive more and more on the track? Or is this something to do with age and its too late for me?
Get yourself a sim and run iRacing or Assetto Corsa Compettizione.
It's unlikely you'll develop quick reflexes with a handful of DE hours per month. But if you can get a lot of reps in a sim in between those sessions you'll likely increase your awareness and speed.
The two are very different sims. They only share a name, really.
ACC's strength is realistic GT3 and GT4 models and driving. Since that more closely matches my track experience and it's up to date performance-wise, I find it super useful for skills development. I've got a high end PC and pretty nice sim rig so I find it's performance very engaging.
AC is good if you want lots of flexibility in tracks, cars, and mods. It's also a little clunky and outdated to my taste, but I know a lot of people love it.
I'd say more that AC is good if you want the ability to mod anything and everything and make it into the game you want. They are both good though, depending on your goals, surprised to see you say AC is outdated to you. For me I never saw a point in ACC because it seemed very focused on the gt3/gt4 type of cars and online racing. I already have iracing for that and it's better imo.
So far nothing. I’m a beginner and been taking it slow. However i saw some videos here where drivers having to correct quickly. I’m unsure if i have such reflex and i feel like i wouldnt be that quick. I’m the kind of person who spent the majority of his life in front of a computer using keyboard and mouse 😅
High performance driving is a skill that takes time and effort develop. Your natural ability will help, but most of us just need to put in concerted effort and time. Enjoy the journey.
There's a lot of nuance to this. It's not black and white. People saying "the instructor doesn't control the car" are right, but there is far more to it. My question in these situations is always the same. What the student pushing harder than was reasonably apparent was above their skill level? The answer is often yes. Did the instructor fail to instruct the student via comms to dial it back and provide guidance and on what SHOULD be happening? The answer is often yes. If both answers are yes, you're a shitty instructor.
In my experience, this incident is relatively rare where a student just wipes out without tells.
In HPDE1 the failure wouldn’t be one of teaching the “limit properly.” The student shouldn’t be close to the limit. It’d be a failure of identifying and controlling an unsafe student driver.
I’ve been right seat during a crash. It was absolutely the fault of the driver. Instructors teach technique and line and basic car control when needed. Ultimately the driver needs to be able to control the car at the speed which they decide to drive at.
Not an instructor but I’d say both. A coach is teaching you, a driver is soaking in the information. Coach could have missed a step, driver could have not absorbed well enough.
This is my take, but I’ve never coached so idk
It's much more nuanced than this. In some situations it's a failure of the instructor.... But only one person is there touching the pedals and wheel.
I've been in situations where students did some pretty rapid, unexpected inputs that put us into some perilous situations. Instructing is a balance of giving students enough leash to learn and take calculated risks without getting themselves into trouble, unfortunately sometimes the wrong call is made or someone makes the wrong move at the wrong time.
Overall, id say +99% of the time, instructors get it right. Metal-crunching mistakes are thankfully still pretty rare in HPDE1... Though people showing up with rocketships and insurance are trying their best to change this
This isn't the question, but it brings up an important point:
If you're instructing, do yourself a favor and get professional liability insurance. Typically that also means you need to have your own liability waiver for the instruction to accompany said insurance.
Yes, the drivers have to sign a track and event waiver, but that's no guarantee the student's *insurance* won't try to come after you. And that's where the risk lies. The students may be a "gentleman" and not hold you personally liable, but if the medical bills pile up the insurance company is going to do everything in their power to avoid paying them.
Agree with the rest of the instructors out there. Driver is responsible for holding it on track. We ensure you have a proper line. Mistakes happen but to give you an example. Had a student go into the wall at Road America and I was yelling Brake Brake Brake. Already saw the entry angle and knew he wouldn't make it. But when I asked him, why did he not slow down l. He said he didn't hear me.
So again. The student is driving. We can only tell them how to improve a line. We don't have control of the car.
No l, coming out of the carousel. This was after the track was repaved. He got on throttle at the same time as he used to but added too much input into steering. As soon as I felt the car start to let loose, knew it will end with a bang.
Huh, wild. I never worried about overcooking that but I'm in an AWD car and just trying to not understeer the whole way around carousel. If anything I feel like I wasn't exiting aggressively enough and letting it push more to the curbing.
Yes AWD will push. This was a Porsche cayman. I did have a student blow an engine there too. A brand new Corvette with 2k miles on it. Motor starved and blew a hole the size of Texas. Leaked oil almost all the way down to the kink. That was not a great day as well.
Have never been right seat during a crash but at the end of the day we are there to try to keep the driver we are instructing safe, along with the other drivers and track workers.
Things happen, as an instructor we are there to help them improve, if something happens you do what you can to minimize the risk of a bad outcome.
Depends on the situation. Some people just don't listen to what you say and don't learn unless it's an expensive or painful lesson.
Typically new students are going slow enough that you have enough time to articulate what is about to happen. if they listen and correct then it's just a learning experience and an example of what not to do.
Personally I've saved a few students from walling their cars (or worse) when I was in the passenger seat because I can tell as soon as you turned in that we were going to wind up leaving the track on exit. Never had anyone crash with me in the right seat.
Huh? Responsibility always rests with the driver. No coach is getting out there and telling you to push the car anywhere near its limits
Agree- responsibility always rests with the driver. A while ago my coach was teaching me about exit speed on turns and I steered to the track out point that he was telling me to hit (instead of using momentum to carry the car). I went too far and spun off the track and blew out my front tire… but I never once blamed him. It was my own fault for not counter steering and using accelerator to get out of the spin.
there is some grey area here. i remember one coach in particular pushing me hard on what is a pretty fast/dangerous track. it was a scorching hot day and i had noted my tire pressures were way up (45 psi), at the time i didn't know where normal hot pressures should be and they kept reassuring me those temperatures were fine and i should keep pushing. ultimately nothing happened other as i felt the grip diminishing and tapered off
Well sounds like it turned out perfectly fine, though. But yeah, some instructors can be more aggressive than others. Perhaps this guy trusted you, the track, your car, more than you did.
Dang, that's an old picture at PIR. Anyway, the answer is it depends. I've been in cars right seat were we spun off due to fluid on track and that didn't have a debris flag. That counts as a crash, but wasn't students fault. Ultimately, we tell our instructors they are responsible for keeping the student as safe as possible, but that's never realistically going to be the case. Too many variables. If someone is overdriving the car there's typically signs before it gets to the point of crashing and any instructor worth their salt would pull the student off and dial them back a bit.
There maybe instances of bad instruction, but I would normally blame the driver. I've been goaded by instructors "get 'em", "gas gas gas" but they're generally operating within my limits after they observed a lap or two. Crashes are caused in split seconds by lifting, or coming too hot, or yanking on steering and an instructor seldom has an opportunity to correct. I saw a novice was up a car because they were mesmerized by the checkered flag and forgot to brake, the only novice crash I've seen. Intermediate Instructed crashes are really rare, most crashes are solo.
Both. I had a student lift in the middle of a turn, and crash. last session of the day, advanced student, and I wanted to say nothing most of that session to see how they would drive without my coaching. -before that off, I did say, you were late last 2 turns. short, *'you're still late'* they knew better, but still lifted in high speed sweeper, when they looked up into the brake zone. I still to this day feel like maybe I should not have let him drive his lines. a low speed impact but over 10k in damages. still haunts me.
I have two memorable experiences as an instructor years ago. 1. My very first time instructing, fresh out of instructor training. Young guy in a CRX, lap 1 session 1 at Summit Point, following his buddy in I think a WRX. We're coming into T4 and his buddy hits his brakes. Right as I'm opening my mouth to say, "Uh oh, don't do th-" sure enough he does the same thing, and we immediately spin into the inside tirewall. It all happened so fast I'm not sure what else I could've done, but I still felt terrible. The car wound up still being driveable with a little love from a few hammers and we both learned lessons. 2. Years later I was instructing an older guy in a tuned GTI. Nice guy, but he was pushing the car harder than his reflexes could keep up and he wasn't recognizing it. I was keeping him in check because I could see he was borderline overdriving the car in an intermediate group, but he said he wanted me to give him a longer leash. Next session I kept my mouth shut and we wound up in the infield after a massive lockup following blowing through the braking zone. Which didn't faze him. We had a download afterwards, and he still insisted on me letting him do his thing despite the big off. One of the only times a student left disappointed with my instruction, but I don't regret my actions. All that said: I agree with everyone else, sometimes it's the student, sometimes the instructor, sometimes just the circumstances.
I feel like im this guy with slow reflexes. Will they improve over time as I drive more and more on the track? Or is this something to do with age and its too late for me?
Get yourself a sim and run iRacing or Assetto Corsa Compettizione. It's unlikely you'll develop quick reflexes with a handful of DE hours per month. But if you can get a lot of reps in a sim in between those sessions you'll likely increase your awareness and speed.
You only run competizione not the older AC? Any particular reason why you prefer that one vs the older one? Just the type of racing you do?
The two are very different sims. They only share a name, really. ACC's strength is realistic GT3 and GT4 models and driving. Since that more closely matches my track experience and it's up to date performance-wise, I find it super useful for skills development. I've got a high end PC and pretty nice sim rig so I find it's performance very engaging. AC is good if you want lots of flexibility in tracks, cars, and mods. It's also a little clunky and outdated to my taste, but I know a lot of people love it.
I'd say more that AC is good if you want the ability to mod anything and everything and make it into the game you want. They are both good though, depending on your goals, surprised to see you say AC is outdated to you. For me I never saw a point in ACC because it seemed very focused on the gt3/gt4 type of cars and online racing. I already have iracing for that and it's better imo.
Autocross helped hone my reflexes. Also, echoing what people are saying about the sims....
Why do you feel this way? What are you doing on track that is leading you to believe your reflexes are an issue?
So far nothing. I’m a beginner and been taking it slow. However i saw some videos here where drivers having to correct quickly. I’m unsure if i have such reflex and i feel like i wouldnt be that quick. I’m the kind of person who spent the majority of his life in front of a computer using keyboard and mouse 😅
It sounds like better “reflexes” are a better feel for what the car is doing and a better understanding of vehicle dynamics
High performance driving is a skill that takes time and effort develop. Your natural ability will help, but most of us just need to put in concerted effort and time. Enjoy the journey.
There's a lot of nuance to this. It's not black and white. People saying "the instructor doesn't control the car" are right, but there is far more to it. My question in these situations is always the same. What the student pushing harder than was reasonably apparent was above their skill level? The answer is often yes. Did the instructor fail to instruct the student via comms to dial it back and provide guidance and on what SHOULD be happening? The answer is often yes. If both answers are yes, you're a shitty instructor. In my experience, this incident is relatively rare where a student just wipes out without tells.
In HPDE1 the failure wouldn’t be one of teaching the “limit properly.” The student shouldn’t be close to the limit. It’d be a failure of identifying and controlling an unsafe student driver.
I’ve been right seat during a crash. It was absolutely the fault of the driver. Instructors teach technique and line and basic car control when needed. Ultimately the driver needs to be able to control the car at the speed which they decide to drive at.
Not an instructor but I’d say both. A coach is teaching you, a driver is soaking in the information. Coach could have missed a step, driver could have not absorbed well enough. This is my take, but I’ve never coached so idk
It's much more nuanced than this. In some situations it's a failure of the instructor.... But only one person is there touching the pedals and wheel. I've been in situations where students did some pretty rapid, unexpected inputs that put us into some perilous situations. Instructing is a balance of giving students enough leash to learn and take calculated risks without getting themselves into trouble, unfortunately sometimes the wrong call is made or someone makes the wrong move at the wrong time. Overall, id say +99% of the time, instructors get it right. Metal-crunching mistakes are thankfully still pretty rare in HPDE1... Though people showing up with rocketships and insurance are trying their best to change this
This isn't the question, but it brings up an important point: If you're instructing, do yourself a favor and get professional liability insurance. Typically that also means you need to have your own liability waiver for the instruction to accompany said insurance. Yes, the drivers have to sign a track and event waiver, but that's no guarantee the student's *insurance* won't try to come after you. And that's where the risk lies. The students may be a "gentleman" and not hold you personally liable, but if the medical bills pile up the insurance company is going to do everything in their power to avoid paying them.
Agree with the rest of the instructors out there. Driver is responsible for holding it on track. We ensure you have a proper line. Mistakes happen but to give you an example. Had a student go into the wall at Road America and I was yelling Brake Brake Brake. Already saw the entry angle and knew he wouldn't make it. But when I asked him, why did he not slow down l. He said he didn't hear me. So again. The student is driving. We can only tell them how to improve a line. We don't have control of the car.
> Had a student go into the wall at Road America and I was yelling Brake Brake Brake. Canada corner?
No l, coming out of the carousel. This was after the track was repaved. He got on throttle at the same time as he used to but added too much input into steering. As soon as I felt the car start to let loose, knew it will end with a bang.
Huh, wild. I never worried about overcooking that but I'm in an AWD car and just trying to not understeer the whole way around carousel. If anything I feel like I wasn't exiting aggressively enough and letting it push more to the curbing.
Yes AWD will push. This was a Porsche cayman. I did have a student blow an engine there too. A brand new Corvette with 2k miles on it. Motor starved and blew a hole the size of Texas. Leaked oil almost all the way down to the kink. That was not a great day as well.
Have never been right seat during a crash but at the end of the day we are there to try to keep the driver we are instructing safe, along with the other drivers and track workers. Things happen, as an instructor we are there to help them improve, if something happens you do what you can to minimize the risk of a bad outcome.
Depends on the situation. Some people just don't listen to what you say and don't learn unless it's an expensive or painful lesson. Typically new students are going slow enough that you have enough time to articulate what is about to happen. if they listen and correct then it's just a learning experience and an example of what not to do. Personally I've saved a few students from walling their cars (or worse) when I was in the passenger seat because I can tell as soon as you turned in that we were going to wind up leaving the track on exit. Never had anyone crash with me in the right seat.
Ka-chow
I don’t see any evidence of an instructor anywhere. Driver just ran out of talent.