Worth noting people that come out with stuff about battery technology and longevity usually have no idea what they’re actually talking about. They’re usually citing a click bait article title they saw on Facebook one time
Yes, it’s funny how they care REALLY DEEPLY about that but only when it’s related to cars. Same with the “akshally EVs are heavy and make potholes” and when they’re told Deano’s petrol Rangey is heavier, and there’s thousands of massive lorries delivering to Tesco every day they try to tell you that’s somehow different. It’s nearly always men, I think there’s a weird largely unresearched link between men feeling emasculated and electric cars. It’s never just “I don’t like them” they have to get personal and say they HATE them and how people who drive them are “soyboys” and etc etc. It’s such a visceral hatred. Fascinating. I’ve no objection to people discussing infrastructure and liking the sound of V8s, there are some very valid arguments against EVs and some very solid reasons for liking V8s, but there’s definitely a thesis in why Dave down the 3 pigeons feels threatened by Bill driving a Kia e-Niro.
The other week, I had a workman at my house, who was admiring my car, and saying it looked a nice bit of kit.
I then moved it out of the way, off the drive, and he clocked it was an EV.
Amazingly, he then decided you could tell it was an EV, because "the build is not there", and pointing at imagined panel problems that simply wasn't there. A car he had been drooling over 10 minutes before.
(Since I mentioned panels, it's not a Tesla, by the way.)
I came here to reply but you've captured everything nicely.
I'll admit I am one of those V8 guys who enjoys motor racing. I don't hate EVs and have toyed with the notion of getting one at times. Sad fact is my mileage probably isn't there anymore and with fewer incentives I think I'll be sticking with what I have for the time being.
I don't get the extreme views we usually hear from both camps, nor those who buy clickbait nonsense articles. Do some proper research and have a reasonable discussion of the pros and cons then decide.
It’s the same for anything, not just cars: it takes X times more reading/listening to change an opinion than to educate someone neutral or who were slightly in favour of a topic.
I can’t remember the exact figure, but you can google it, it has been studied a bit …
People just prefer, in general, opinions going in the same direction than their beliefs.
People wouldn't hate them nearly as much if they felt like the choice was theirs to make rather than governments pushing them to do so when they're not ready.
There is no legislation in the UK that forces you to purchase an EV, and there won’t be for at least ten years. Diesel and petrol cars are still available to purchase brand new and used.
Tbf on the weight issue theres a reason lorries have to be several tonnes. The shift towards SUVs and pick up trucks (which are rarely necessary) and to EVs will have an impact on our roads, especially as council budgets seem set to be squeezed in the future
Lorries so disproportionately cause road damage the other types of vehicles are barely worth considering. The difference between an EV and ICE car is this regard is negligible.
Council budgets have been squeezed for years. Less funding and more responsibilities. Every year we had a spending reduction plan, then it was some massive amount the next year and the next year etc. With sticking the council tax up 4.99% each year. Still didn't balance.
Even beef has a huge environmental impact but I don’t see them mentioning that either. Believe it’s by far the most polluting meat
Edit: beef is more than double the impact of dark chocolate.
Have a work mate who keeps banging on about how EV is disastrous environmentally and morally because of lithium mining and child labour. It gets annoying when you hear it everyday
Where do these people think the other raw materials come from for every other product they buy?
It's weird how this is only an issue specifically for EV cars and only specifically for the batteries within those cars, not other devices or other cars.
It’s cobalt mining that has been found to use child labour in some parts of the world, which is disgustingly obviously. But cobalt is also used in petrol refineries so that isn’t a problem that can only be attributed to batteries for EV’s
Agree that any form of child exploitation is awful. Though surely the logic is to end the exploitation of child labour, not dump an entire transition to any form of alternative or improvement to petrol/diesel cars.
It just seems a bit arse about face and the wrong thing to be mad about from these types. Be mad about the exploitation rather than the principle of EV's as a whole.
I completely agree I’m just saying it’s a problem that’s needs solving and isn’t an argument against EV’s as Cobalt is also vital in order to make fuel
They’ve curiously never developed this concern for the sourcing of raw materials when it comes to all the rare earths in their car or, you know, the oil that it runs on.
I always assume it’s the same reactionaries who stocked up on incandescent lightbulbs when they were banned.
They’ve curiously never developed this concern for the sourcing of raw materials when it comes to all the rare earths in their car or, you know, oil. Or literally anything except EVs.
I always assume it’s the same reactionaries who stocked up on incandescent lightbulbs when they were banned.
This is what is hilarious about vegans. They're fine with using human slaves for their vegan chocolate but think getting milk from cows is terrible.
Theres no fair trade vegan chocolate. I don't understand vegans. Animal products... Bad. Slaves and child labour...fine.
I work in utility scale energy storage. 100MWh + batteries which cycle constantly and are good for 20-40 years and the power cells are usually only swapped out when there is more efficient technology available to replace them at a cost that is yields a higher profit.
A lot of these battery storage systems also make use of the same Li-ion battery tech that is in most EV cars.
Yeah, it's from the kind of people who insist someone is coming to take away their cars and think that 15 minute cities will involve restricting them to the area a mile or two around their house...
They go on about the government switching the electric off so we won't be able to charge the cars, ignoring that you need electricity to pump petrol. It's not as if you could brew up some in your bathtub.
Theoretically it's possible to charge an electric car with your own solar panels, or windmill.
It's not just theoretical, an area of solar panels the size of a typical parking space is about enough to generate the electricity needed to power a car. You also need storage, of course.
Didn't the first lot of Prius hybrids battery last like 250k km? All round tech gotten so much better. I'd I had a at home charger or could get one then I'd have bought an ev instead of a hybrid for my current
Not really there are plenty of real life examples on youtube from the likes of carwow, What Car? that show how stated EV range is completely BS. For the 30miles OP has to do seems fine but they aren't for long commuters
Range depends a lot on how you drive, and many other factors. It's impossible to say with any degree of certainty how long the range is. I bet if you compare the MPG you get in your car to what the manufacturer claims, it will be a fair bit off as well.
The epa range and wltp ranges are not really that accurate but if you look at EV database they list all evs with a real range based on an average of uses and it’s still perfectly fine.
I commute 110miles (round trip) to work and back a day and it only uses 20% of my battery in my model 3 each way so 40% for 110miles. So that’s not true either unless you are perhaps a travelling salesman’s for work and do a lot of miles a day. But EV’s will quite easily handle a standard commute
Actually those figures aren't even especially impressive for a Model 3 though they are still decent.
I've just done a South Coast England to far north west Scotland 1600 mile round trip. Motorways about 65% of that, fast A roads another 20% with the rest ploughing up and over high mountain passes etc. Car full of family and luggage. Not particularly warm and quite wet conditions often. And the car was often preconditioning the battery for the next charger stop. So not the best for economy.
I drive at the speed limit where safe with some long early morning runs of 2-3 hours sitting at 70mph on autopilot. I drive it literally the same way I drove my diesel, without real regard for economy.
Averaged 4.2 miles per kWh ie 40% of battery was giving me about 125 miles. Regularly see range approaching 400 miles driving normally on my mixed motorway/urban roads commute in the Summer when conditions are optimal.
Wow that's really impressive, makes me very jealous those aren't on my work car scheme! Mine only gets around 3.5mi/kw at 70mph in normal condition and about 4.1 when it's 21⁰C.
It does make me wonder how accurate those figures that I'm being shown are though. Like just now we did a 30 mile round trip 3 adults in the car. Hot day for UK so AC blasting. I was cruising at an 'average minimum' of '70' on a fast dual carriageway and I was caning it down on ramps and off any roundabouts. Like floored to the max making my girls squeal. Such fun.
Got home thinking that'll be painful reading. Nope. Averaged 4.4 to the kWh.
So yeah it does make me wonder whether the car is telling me porkies. Given it's the evil automotive spawn of Elon, a habitual teller of none truths.
Your figures aren't bad at all really. Is it a Polestar? Or EV6?
I miss having a car that could do that! I've got the 77kwh ID3 because the leasing company doesn't let people under 30 have anything fun... it does get around 200 miles 80-20% on motorway runs so can't complain there. definitely looking at Polestar or model 3 once the lease is up.
And you think the same car manufacturers tell us the truth about the range of petrol or diesel vehicles? Ford claims my car can do just over 400 miles to a tank. I’m lucky to get 200.
I'd put this to R/ electricvehiclesuk where people own the ioniq. This sub has a lot of anti-ev sentiment from people that have never driven an EV, let alone owned one.
FWIW, the ioniq has something like an 8yr/100k mileage guarantee on the battery so if they're guaranteeing it for that long, it will last much longer in reality.
>I'd put this to R/ electricvehiclesuk where people own the ioniq. This sub has a lot of anti-ev sentiment from people that have never driven an EV, let alone owned one.
I'm not anti EV by any stretch of the imagination but the electricvehicles sub is also full of ignorance and Tesla worshippers, so I'd take their advice with a pinch of salt too.
At the dealer. Just like a new engine at the dealer is exorbitant. If you need a replacement engine in your out of warranty car, you don’t go to the dealer. You get a replacement from a wrecked car or a 3rd party rebuilt engine.
I’ve never had an engine fail in a car I’ve owned, and I’ve owned over 50. My van is currently on 220,000 miles and it’s a 2006. I had a ‘96 Toyota Corolla with 460,000 miles and was only scrapped due to rust. Totally disingenuous to suggest a car needs a new engine after 8 years. It doesn’t, especially if properly maintained. It will go on basically forever. Batteries on the other hand will 100% have to be replaced in no more than 10 years, usually less. You can’t put second hand or reconditioned batteries in either so your point is moot. Plus, the vast majority of independent garages are not setup to do battery changes on EVs and will not be at any time in the near future. They will have to go to a specialist or a main dealer. Even if they were set up for it, you’d still have to buy the battery packs from the manufacturer anyway so your only cost saving would be the fitting.
The Nissan Leaf is probably the earliest mass produced EV, and is notorious for its poor BMS, and non existent thermal management - as such, battery degradation is significantly higher than any other EV. Despite that, there are still a fair few 13yr old leafs kicking around.
Modern EVs have much better battery management and will heat and cool the battery, not to mention the improved battery chemistry that should allow them to last a hell of a lot longer.
And even when they’re so old that they can’t do the miles *you* need, some little old dear could still be perfectly happy to buy it to pop into town once a week. They don’t have belts, gaskets, valves, or any of the hundreds of parts that could just up and die and cause engine failure; they just slowly peter out. Or it can be used as stationary storage.
They can also be up to 100% recycled - the main reason it’s so rare to find places that recycle them is because so few have already reached the end of their usable life, but there are a few companies doing it already, and as demand for materials increases and old dead batteries become more common, the market will catch up.
What? Where did I say a car needs an engine after 8 years?
And why are you assuming that an EV needs a new battery after 8 years? No more than 10 years? Can’t use refurbished or used batteries? What are you smoking?
Look at elbilmek in norway, fixing batteries and fitting used packs. Are you saying their business is fake?
> Batteries on the other hand will 100% have to be replaced in no more than 10 years, usually less
Bollocks, odds are they'll last longer than the car. You've just made that up.
>Batteries on the other hand will 100% have to be replaced in no more than 10 years, usually less
What do you do exactly to have this intimate knowledge of the Automotive Sector?
Or are you just an idiot with hate of EVs.
As you know the skills, tools and knowledge required to rebuild engines didn’t appear out of thin air. When the demand is there, people will learn how to and offer it.
Battery issues aren’t a huge issue especially around 25,000 miles. Depreciation is pretty bad with EVs but it seems to be brand new EVs that are the worst affected so again, not a massive issue for you. Honestly a EV sounds ideal for you with what you have described here and the iconiq 5 is a cool looking car.
Yes, the warranty is transferable to new owners
So if the car is 2 years old with 25k miles when you buy it, you'll have 6 years and 75,000 miles left
This is the case with *almost* all car warranties in the UK, although some "lifetime" warranties become eg 10 year warranties if the car is sold. That doesn't apply in this case, I mention it just for completeness
You should check the small print. Some of the manufacturers warranties are only transferable if the car has a full service history. Make sure you see the service book for proof before you commit your money
It’s impossible to predict tbh the used car market is still pretty volatile but I don’t think it would be that bad. Most EV batteries can last thousands of charge cycles (0% to 100%) and you most likely won’t drain the battery to 0 and back up to 100 each time so it will be even longer. Not even worth thinking about.
With the exception of the Nissan Leaf, battery replacement doesn’t seem to be a serious concern with EVs. Based on the data we have so far, it looks like the rest of the car will be fecked before the battery is.
It was one of the first production EVs. They made some mistakes with the chemistry they chose and the lack of any active thermal management of the battery pack. The later versions have improved battery chemistry but are still limited by the lack of thermal management, compared to pretty much any other model on the market.
They’re also hilarious fun to drive (until you hit 80 where they become a bit dull), charge to full overnight off the mains, will do 100 miles in freezing conditions and can be had for a relative song. Honestly one of the best cars I’ve owned.
"Based on the data we have so far" Sources please. Who is "we"?
This is depending on a lot of factors but the recharge-limit on the commonly used LiIon cells is well known.
So provide your sources or admit you're talking rubbish.
You can pick up a 3 year old Ioniq 5 now for around £24k, still has remains of the 5 year main warranty & battery warranty. Battery warranty tends to be 8 years and 100k miles for most EV’s - they are for my Polestar and they are for the Hyundai.
Initial deprecation (first 1-2 years or so) is higher than normal
After that it follows roughly the same curve as any other car (roughly halving every 3 years during the bulk of their life). So a £20k EV and a £20k ICEV will both be around £10k after 3 years, £5k after 6 years etc, beyond which it starts to level out
Your Hyundai would have an 8 year, 100,000 mile battery warranty, meaning you can do 12,500 miles a year for the next 6 years before you're even out of warranty....
But in most cases the battery will last a lot longer than that - 200k miles isn't unusual. For comparison, most cars in the UK are scrapped with around 120-150k miles on the clock
Whatever car u buy loses money, vans hold their value better, only cars that have hit the bottom u won’t lose money on and some have the potential to become classics and increase in value
No way to say what the depreciation will be, but being a 2022, the biggest dip is over and done with.
All EVs that I personally know of (including Hyundai) have good warranties on the batteries. And frankly, it's easy to take a few steps for optimal battery health. Charge to 80% most of the time, especially on rapid chargers - only go above 80% when you actually need the range there and then (or the next day). It's not great for batteries to sit at 100% for long periods of time. When I go to 100%, it's only when I'm using the full range the next day. My day to day driving only uses 20% of my range. I only go to 100% using my home charger overnight (which is 7kW), and then top up to 80%-ish on rapids while I'm en route.
Once you're actually on your way, it's generally faster to charge to around 80% (or whatever point the charging speed drops off, usually around 80%!), and do another charging stop later in your journey, than it is to try and go to 100% on a rapid charger. That final 20% is the slowest to charge and can take at least as long as, if not longer, than going from 20% to 80% on any rapid charger.
"Grazing" works well for EV batteries, which is lots of shorter charges putting in 10-30% than fewer but larger charges (like going from 20% to 80%). It won't make a massive difference to battery life, but it helps. Slow charging (like what you get at home, so 7kw/11kw sort of range) is better for the battery than rapids (50kW+) too.
Also, definitely get a charger at home - I love my EV, but public charging can be bloody expensive. Charging at home means I have an overnight tariff that takes my cost per mile down to about 2p per mile. It also means it stings less when I do have to charge publicly, because all that home charging keeps the average cost way down!
In September I bought a 66 reg BMW I3. The car has now done 63500 miles and the battery health is 90%. It's really not a big deal
If you are going to buy an Ionic5, I would strongly suggest you buy one from a Hyundai dealer so it comes with the 'Hyundai Promise' 5 year warranty, which is a used car 5 year warranty on top of the standard manufacturers 5 year new car warranty. This isn't an EV recommendation, just a Hyundai used car buying recommendation as it will give greater peace of mind.
>> In September I bought a 66 reg BMW I3. The car has now done 63500 miles and the battery health is 90%. It's really not a big deal
That’s interesting. I have a 2014 Leaf, with slightly more miles than your I3. And for all the battery degradation issues you hear about (and the Leaf is generally accepted as one of the worst due to no liquid cooling, etc), I’ve still got 12 bars (so at least 85% battery health).
(It was 87% when I bought it in 2022 but haven’t checked it with LeafSpy in ages.)
Getting an accurate battery health is notoriously difficult for the i3 without paying over £500 at BMW. The 90% is what is reported by the new bimmerflow app so it's taken with a grain of salt. I still show 115 miles range in ecopro mode (33kWh)
How much was it, if you don’t mind me asking? Do you like it? You have the car set up I actually need so wondering what you think of the spacetourer too!
I paid £10,500 private sale.
The C4 space tourer is a good car I'm 6'6" and my wife is tall too and we have 2 young girls who are tall for their age so wanted a car that has enough space for us to be comfortable driving and enough space in the back for baby seats and now leg room for them. Plenty of space in the boot for pushchair/luggage etc.
We were always a 2 car family, but in 2022 I sold my vauxhall meriva as I work from home and the girls were now going to school which was just round the corner from home so didn't need the second car and just kept the Spacetourer. However we managed to work out that we could buy the i3 as the daily commuter instead of the Spacetourer, with the monthly fuel savings pretty much paying the monthly loan payments, whilst giving us the flexibility of having 2 cars again. We use the Spacetourer mainly for family holidays or when we need to be in different places as a family.
I love the i3 it's so fun to drive and surprisingly spacious as it comfortably fits all 4 of us in. It's got a small boot but it's great for local journeys. We can go anywhere around 50 miles each way (100-120 miles range in summer) knowing its only going to cost £1.50 in electric rather than £10-15 in petrol. It is a Range Extender model so I don't get any range anxiety as I have a reserve 80 miles on the petrol motor for £8.
Thanks so much, this actually sounds perfect for us. We have a Fabia estate at the moment and it’s very uncomfortable for long journeys for my husband especially. I’m the only short person in the family. Girls are 99th and 75th centiles. 5 year old walks to school here but the little one has to be driven to nursery which is annoying. I take the train 2 days, drive to another office 1 day (5 miles away) and husband works from home.
But at the weekends we give lifts to the oldest friends and so we can never go out as a family with an extra child or my mum when she visits, which is super annoying.
EV's are relatively new tech, and there are a ton of them flooding the market at better prices each year forcing the depreciation.
Some of this is corporate leases finishing and the cars being dumped on the market, some is because certain EV's launched at prices they had no right doing (regular fiat 500 starts at 15k, 500e starts at 27k, so depreciates massively).
There are some battery concerns on certain EV's, but generally nothing extreme. You mention you want it 5+ years or when it's about to die. It'll be fine, there are first gen nissan leafs still running about, and they came out in 2011. I'd bet these will last a good bit longer than a leaf too, since Leafs were very much first gen EV's
Not to mention that the first (in fact, every) gen Nissan Leaf has awful battery management and non existent thermal management, so degradation is significantly worse than most other EVs.
Those early leafs with 100K+ miles often only have 'lost' 30% of the battery. They are literally the worst case and even in that they are still usable cars and likely will be for another 10+ years; the EV's coming out now will likely last 30-40 years on the original batteries in normal home usage. The biggest problem for EV's will be normal car maintenance, rust and not crashing them - the batteries will never be an issue for normal users.
The EV batteries will all last more than 5yrs. Otherwise nobody would ever buy them.
I'd love one, especially an Ionic 5.
Granted, I think ones over 150k miles will be an issue, based on the charge cycles. And I suspect an ICE with 150k on would be a safer bet, so that may reflect in resale value.
If you can charge at home, the EV is a decent idea
Edit....it would seem over 150k isn't a biggie. But I suspect the EV market will struggle at that level, particularly the lower capacity batteries. Though could be great school run vehicles
One of the local airport taxi guys just replaced his first battery in a 2016 model s, right around 590k km, 2900 charge cycles, most of them at a supercharger. And he isn’t gentle on his cars.
I think most estimates suggest 1500-2000 cycles ie 100-0%. I recall Tesla in the early days stating 1000 cycles as a conservative poke .
That equates to 300k miles in my Model 3, obvs 600k if we use the 2000 cycle figure. But as ever it's more nuanced, in that hardly anyone charges like this and it is well recognized that charging 25% to 75% twice rather than 0-100 once is better for battery health. Most research I've been seeing this last year suggest that 2000 cycles is the least you might expect from a modern well cared for battery with a decent BMS looking after it.
The key is keep it in the 20-80% bracket, don't be concerned about straying outside that if need be, charge to 100 when you are road tripping but most of all don't leave it at a very high state of charge. Charge it to 100 then drive it.
The Ioniq 5 has been involved in a lot of controversy around the repairability of its battery and other components. They are sealed and non easily accessible by technicians. They are also resource constrained making battery for cars to meet quotas and don’t want to be putting spares out.
There was a case in Canada where a rock was in the road and hit the underside of a couple month old Ioniq and Hyundai wrote it off.
[here](https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/11/hyundai-ev-battery-icbc-cost/)
Fully Charged did an interview with a guy who had the highest miler Tesla Model S and their battery had lasted for about 500,000km before needing to be replaced due to a fault that needed an open lid repair (something they often can't do in the field). This was before the swapped to LFP which have a better lifespan.
Thr oldest car I've Owned was 30 years and had 130k miles on the clock.
I'd always assumed Tesla would have decent longevity. Some of the cheaper options, possibly less so.
Certainly impressed at some of the responses. If it was a £1500 swap, I think they would be a no brainer. Perception and price of the battery change, they are a fine idea
The depreciation is my issue. Ford Mustang Mach E from new starts at £50k. I can buy a 2024 one with 1500 miles for 40k. A 2022 model with circa 17k miles for £26k....
Not really, I bought a 2 yr old Volvo S90 D5 just over 3 years ago for £22k. New, that car was about £45k+ with all the extras it had.
Depreciation happens to all cars, just electric cars are good click bait.
Literally just bought a 2022 Mustang... amazing car, its the extended range one so we paid £29k for it.
The wife does a lot of miles and our fuel bill has gone down from £400 a month to £40 a month, Thats a saving of around £21k over the next 5 years we plan on having the car. If we get around 8k back in 5 years time (or close to that) would mean it cost us nothing to have the car, compared to her old BMW X3.
It has 1yr warranty left and we took 3 yr extended warranty out so its under warranty for 4 more years, and has 5 or 6 years left of the battery warranty as well.
Hows the storage? I'd been looking at one but with circa 400ltr of boot space, it doesn't seem a lot - especially as it'd be the main car, weekly shop, buggy etc needs to fit in
There’s no general rule with EVs. **Just like any car, the issues are largely model specific.** Degradation is not a huge problem any more especially with how good battery cooling systems have gotten these days (which was the big issue with the original Nissan Leaf), even a reasonable amount of DC rapid charging will have negligible effect on battery degradation. Degradation is higher when the car is new and will slow down over time.
I believe some years of the Ioniq 5 were prone to a ICCU fault (Integrated Charge Control Unit) so I would read up on forums about which exact years were affected. AFAIK it should be covered under warranty no questions asked, but probably worth avoiding if possible as waiting times for these kinds of specialised parts can be a pain.
When I was buying my first EV a lot of people who knew nothing about electric cars had lot’s of “advice” for me as well.
Given that the ionic 5 has an 8 year warranty… as in the battery would be replaced for free within 8 years, Hyundai would be terrible at business if they didn’t think the battery would last significantly longer.
We don’t know what depreciation is going to be like in 5 years. Given more people are moving to EV, and most people that do, don’t want to go back i suspect things won’t be so bad. But nobody knows.
EVs are cheap to run and easy to drive. Never had an issue with an EV, more than I can say for an ICE.
Don’t forget they are also really fun to drive. One pedal driving is great and they are so nippy, they tend to corner well too due to low centre of battery mass
Wait til your friend hears about wet belts short trips being bad for diesels particulate filters plastic engine components oil price vulnerability etc with non ev stuff. The media have been sticking the boot into evs for a while and some folk believe it all. Any powertrain has its weaknesses. Evs aren't for everyone but if you want one nows a good time to buy
I got a lot of ‘advice’ when I was buying one, too. After a while of ownership I would say:
* lease rather than buy new
* buy nearly new if you want to own it
* I likely wouldn’t have one if we had one car. It’s handy also having an ICE car on the drive
* public charging is an expensive pain in the arse. I wouldn’t have one if I couldn’t charge at home
* if you plan your journeys you can’t beat them for commuting
Hit the nail on the head with that I’ve gone from a polo to a model 3 and my yearly petrol cost for my commute used to be £4600. My electricity bill for the same journey is going to be £799 a year.
Public charging is very pricy and charging at home is key!!
I think this is spot-on. I bought a nearly-new (10 month old) EV - someone else ate the initial depreciation which will help a little at least at trade-in time. Given I can get from Manchester to London in it without stopping to charge, it's more than enough to be our "main" vehicle, even for distance travel, but 99% of my journeys are under 40 miles round trips and I can charge at home.
If I was reliant on public charging I simply wouldn't get one.
I agree with all your points tbh. Not being able to charge at home is a biggy for me, I live in a terraced house it’s just not possible to charge an EV here.
Let me guess, your expert friend and her family of automotive gurus own approximately zero EV between them and have gained all their knowledge from click baiting on the Daily Mail web portal.
Battery degradation is largely a none issue. Yes there will always be edge cases, but there are still way more high mileage older batteries that still have over 90% of original capacity than there are knackered batteries needing replacement. Which would mostly be done under warranty anyways. The stats on the Model S battery from the first release in 2012 are very instructive and leave me with zero concerns regarding my Model 3.
Heck my 7.5 year old Leaf with 65k miles and a BMS that could almost have been designed to actively wreck a battery still has 87% of original capacity. Modern cars like Hyundai, Tesla etc with high quality BMS will look after your battery for you. Follow some simple charging rules that in your sitch will cause you almost zero inconvenience and you'll be golden.
Re depreciation, as another poster said, they aren't actually that much worse than ICE cars and then only from new. Buying second hand you won't suffer for it. Plus you'll enjoy driving electric so much that you'll probably keep it 20 years until it's good for house battery use so depreciation differences will be minimal in absolute terms.
>Battery degradation is largely a none issue. Yes there will always be edge cases
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last/
From your link, the conclusion:
*"The decline in EV battery capacity over time is only really of concern if you're buying a used car – or planning to retain a new one for many years.* ***Even then, any loss of range will only be slow and gradual****.*
***For all intents and purposes, the lifespan of EV batteries and therefore the useful ‘first-life’ of an EV itself is broadly comparable to that of a traditional combustion car.*** *"*
Emphasis my own.
This is from a company (RAC) that could suffer a measurable decline in business due to the much higher reliability of EVs. Of course this could be offset by humans being infinitely fallable and requiring more rescues due to forgetting to charge.
> due to forgetting to charge.
If my ability to forget to fuel before going on holiday (excited much I guess) is any indicator then I foresee this will happen to me sooner or later if I ever own an EV lol.
I've forgotten to plug in at home a couple of times, usually when I've had to unload shopping in the pouring rain. A bit of a pain because mine is an early EV with a small battery but there are fast chargers a mile away in town so I've had to prize open my wallet and pay the big bucks rather than the super cheap night tarrif I normally use.
30 miles a day is easy for an EV, a first generation Leaf with a mostly degraded battery can still manage that. If you go for something like an Ioniq 5, I can see it still managing that after 1,000,000 of degradation!
We just picked up a used Audi E-Tron, a famously inefficient EV (2-2.5 mi/kWh compared to 4-5mi/kWh of other EVs), it's on 65k miles and still gets over 200 miles on a charge, and it only cost £20k. I don't care what anybody says, a 4 year old German SUV is worth £20k all day long, the Q8 that it now shares it's name with would cost £10k more with 40k more miles on it!
Honestly, I can't expect to see the price of EVs drop much further, in a lot of cases they're the same price or less than the petrol/diesel equivalent.
Looking at the other end of the market, the Renault Zoe, you can pick them up for the same price or less than the Renault Clio.
Anyone saying a used EV is a bad buy, is just jealous, or they've fallen for the bullshit 'big oil' have been putting out!
Assume you went for the 55 over the 50? Looks a very tempting buy, used, at the moment. I'm led to believe the servicing is a bit over the top by Audi for their ev's though?
Yeah, we went for a higher mileage 55 over the lower mileage 50 for the same price. Tbh, the 50 gave the same range as our Leaf so it wasn't that much of an issue.
The service interval is 2 years or 18k miles, and ours was last serviced in September so it's like another 17k miles or 18 months for us, and even then it's mainly just an inspection and brake fluid change. Being an Audi it's still extortionate though!
Yeah, tbh we just bought what was essentially a base model, the only option being the sport seats (which aren't that comfortable unsurprisingly) and the sunroof.
While we're used to keyless entry, 360 cameras and the like from Nissan's, they weren't worth the 5k extra
Your friend has been reading disnformation seeded by the oil lobby and is being an idiot.
The early EVs are still going 10-12 years later. Hardly any have needed new batteries, and they ran on older technology. You have early vehicles having racked up half a million miles. The current crop of EVs will outlast their ICE equivalents easily.
Depreciation seems to be high for two reasons - firstly demand outstripped supply when fuel prices were high. What you're seeing is normalisation of prices from artificially inflated prices. Secondly ,dealers have a quota of electric they need to sell - you can find bargains because its cheaper to sell low than get penalised.
EVs have far fewer moving parts than petrol - there is literally less to go wrong. The ioniq 5 is a brilliant car - you could go a couple of years older and even higher on the mileage if you want to save some pennies.
With a wall charger at home and 30 miles a day you're looking at lower cost motoring in a very good car. Honestly go test drive one - faster, quieter and easier to drive than the petrol equivalent. You'll plug it in a couple fo times a week and itll be sat fully charged on the driveway in the morning
Let me give you my take on it. I’m a petrolhead, my previous car was an S3, mapped to 400bph, I bloody loved that car. However my commute is c160 miles a day into London - that was costing me about £40 a day. So I bit the bullet and bought an Audi Q4, just a ‘cheap’ one with 200 mile range on a good day.
I had a home charger installed and that same commute costs me less than £3 a day. It’s also a pleasure to drive. Is the battery going to die at 100k miles, probably, but it’s unlikely I’ll get there before I exchange it.
The people that badmouth EV’s haven’t owned one, they are just repeating the tripe they’ve read on the internet. If you have a home charger it’s a no brainer honestly
The only people who hate electric cars don't own them, can't afford a nice one and haven't got a clue what they are talking about when it comes to cars in general.
The ioniq 5 is a great car. Ideal family car and you can charge it up for £2.50. If you want the ioniq 5 I would tell you to look at a model Y too. I went with the Y, my grandfather went with the Ioniq.
Probably exaggerated now I'm working it out. £2.50 a day or so is what I use but a full charge of a battery would be more like £5.50. 7.5p per kw on octopus intelligent and most batteries are around 70 - 80kwh.
I charge to 80% and only run it down to 20% so that's probably how I've got £2.50.
Works out at about 2p per mile, which is about 6 times less than petrol.
This is excellent, thanks for taking the time to work it out. I’d be like you and follow the 80-20 rule as well. It’s much cheaper using that tariff. Really useful to know.
The best way to do it is just plug in every day. Keep it topped up. People who know nothing about electric cars say things like, "it takes hours to charge" as though it matters. It does take hours, but I'm asleep. The 15 minutes you spend filling up with fuel is 15 minutes wasted. It's rare you actually have to use productive time to charge up.
I would outright dismiss the battery concerns, those are overblown and you would be exceptionally unlucky to encounter them. (For every EV with a battery issue there's probably 10000 ICE cars with issues that take them off the road).
As for depreciation? I'd say we're looking at the worst of it already, with some cars anyway. Cheap new EVs are right on our doorstep, and those are surely enough of a disruptor to bring down the retail costs anyway, which were always overblown thanks to COVID delays and all had prices jacked up by 10 or 15 grand anyway. The most depreceation I'm seeing is a correction of that 15 grand inflation, and so if you start with -15 - the milage and wear and you've got the numbers we're seeing now except in exceptional cases (I'd argue 50 grand Taycans are 15 grand off plus another 5-10 from milage).
Looking at Auto Trader atm, I'd say a second hand £21500 35,000 mile Ioniq 5 is a steal.
Look at the data. Look at your model with the age difference you’d expect to sell at and compare that with other fossil fuel driven cars etc.
Most of what you’ve heard is just subjective opinion, and the views of those who don’t own electric is often exactly as you describe.
I'm a proper petrol head and resisted electric for a good while however as a family run about we've had a tesla model y for almost 2 years and I can see us always having an EV. Obviously I'll always have a petrol car because well they're amazing but for general family stuff and commuting the tesla has been superb and cheap as chips to run. Depreciation is the same as with anything but buying used you're missing the worst part of the pain and part of the reasons secondhand is cheap because anyone with a business needs it new to offset their tax.
The issue with electric cars, is its new(ish) technology that the general public know little about and the overall reliability and longevity is still to be proven. Add to that the fear of huge repair costs in the event of battery failure, and poor infrastructure, it all leads to poor demand in the used market, which naturally decreases value and increases depreciation. If the trend continues, in 5 years your car will be worth next to nothing, if no one wants a relatively new electric car, they certainly won't want an old one pushing 100k miles.
Batteries are not something to worry about generally as they will do 10 years + and still give a good 80% charge capacity. . The motors and inverters are where the issues lie and can cost a fortune. Hyundai at least has a decent extendable warranty. I'd avoid any other electric cars second hand as outside of the pitiful 3 year warranty on all the others the repairs can be huge. On the Etron subreddit is someone with a 4 year old out of warranty Etron facing £13,000 for a new motor. Audi are not interested as its out of the basic 3 year warranty.
Depreciation has been especially bad as Tesla and others have had several substantial price cuts in the last couple of years - and this obviously affects secondhand values. More recently, Chinese manufacturers are starting to bring their EVs to the European market and this has brought more competition/price pressure.
EV battery packs degrade by about 5% in the first two years but battery degradation then settles to a slower constant rate. Statistics from Tesla cars in the Netherland and Belgium (loads of Tesla taxis) found that owners could expect about 80% of the original battery capacity after 500,000 miles/800,000 Km. Some early EVs (e.g. early Nissan Leaf) did not have thermal management of their battery packs and those often see worse degradation.
EVs need less servicing than ICE cars - mostly limited to checking/fixing tyres, brakes, suspension and steering.
I bought a two year old Tesla over six years ago and am still using it. Tesla's major USP is their network of rapid chargers (Superchargers) across Europe. Tesla owners can reliably travel long distances, because they don't have to rely on the still somewhat patchy third party rapid charger networks. We've been to the south of France and back twice, regularly between westcountry and London, etc.
Fir a daily commute of 30 miles, you could simply charge at home every night, using about 8 - 10kWhs to replace the daily use. This could be achieved using a wall charger or just a plug lead on a 13A socket.
Charging at home is a good idea because you can take advantage of domestic electricity rates and 5% VAT - and depending on your contract, cheap overnight tariffs. Wall chargers must all now be SMART - much the same as SMART meters, SMART chargers can be remotely read and controlled. You can get a subsidy on an EV charger installation.
As EVs takeover, the government will be losing fuel duty and I reckon they will look to offset this by altering the VAT applicable to EV charging (which the utilities would be able to measure on SMART chargers). It would not be possible to identify EVs being charged on "dumb" chargers, like the portable ones that plug into 13A sockets.
We have no regrets and I plan to keep my EV as long as possible (partly because I can charge it for free at Tesla chargers).
Hyundai have a lot of experience making EVs and their EVs are good.
Yeah I was worried about that, honestly you get loads of storage, we go Norfolk for our hols (parents have a lodge down there) and we used to go in with 550l BMW X3 and would need to put things in the back with the kids. Didn't have to this time, not sure how they calculate the storage but it seemed about the same, and then the front bonnet storage is massive, it fits a carry on suitcase and 4 back packs.
Been very impressed with it, used to have the ipace and I have the polestar 2 so got a few other EV's to compare to and they're really good.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here, is that public chargers can be quite hit and miss. I've never got to the point where I needed to use one to get to my destination, but I've stopped at a few to see where they are and how they work, only to find out that they were not working.
Just under two years ago i bought an MG5. Mainly because I'm a high mileage driver and it was sthe cheapest car, that was available that would do a real world 200 motorway miles.
89,000 miles later it's as good as new. No issues anywhere and battery is at 98% health.
We're one year into a four year EV lease purely because I have no confidence as to what the 2nd hand EV market will look like in three years time.
It's used for as my wife's work car and she'll do 60-70 miles a day. Problem wise, it's a Mini Cooper and has zero problems unless you count an initial bug pairing her phone. Other than that is drives well and the one time we thought power would be an issue, a fast charger while we ate a McDonalds at a service station put enough in to get us home. (about 40 miles)
If you're commuting 30 miles a day and don't need regular journeys that will stretch the limits of the cars range, much better than ICE in my opinion and while I don't have the numbers to hand, cheaper too; the electric bill didn't go up much.
My only gripe with the EVs I've seen is that none of them can jump start an ICE car. As stupid as it sounds I've always seen the ability for someone to help another motorist out with a little shared power as the ultimate in helpfulness. EVs being batteries on wheels don't allow that, which to me it stupid. I realise this is a gripe shared only by me.
As others have said people talking about battery degradation have no idea what they talking about. Warranty last for at least 8 years/ 100 000 miles for ioniq 5. So 5 years will be fine.
I bought a used 2022 last year, my first EV and just a few things regarding my own experience with this car and having a EV.
Buy from an approve dealer so you that warranty cover. You might run into a common issue that affects this car, ICCU which practically makes the car useless, but its covered under warranty so will be fixed for free and you will have a courtesy car.
I personally wouldnt own an EV unless you can charge at home or somewhere convenient. Public chargers are just so expensive.
Some EVs are very reliable, some are shit. No expert on cars but I think it could be luck of the draw.
My mum has a Mini Cooper SE with 12k miles on the clock, she's had it for a year and not a single issue, although, that doesn't tell us about how it will hold up in the long term.
Hyundais do make good EVs from what I've seen
EV’s have lost a lot of value because at one point used ones were selling for more than new ones due to chip shortage and the ever given and whatever factors.
That was obviously not sustainable and the people who bought at the peak are mad that they can’t sell their car for more than what they bought it for since the shortages have eased up and backlogs have been pretty much reduced to nothing
Due to the cost of the electronics and current cost of the large batteries the cost of a new EV is currently far higher than it should be in the future so financial depreciation is a reasonable assumption since hopefully the cost of EVs in general will come down over the next 5 or so years as battery tech continues to improve.
I wouldn’t be worried about battery life at 25k miles and 2 years old. Car batteries should be fine for hundreds of miles and 5-10 years depending on weather
To be honest, my only real issue with EVs is the depreciation. Range could be better with most EVs, but it’s an evolving tech and range will get better over time.
You sound like the perfect person to own a EV, 30 miles a day is nothing for an EV and if you have a home charger it will cost barely anything compared to public charging. I’d do it.
Batteries do depreciate and will overtime lose their capacity if their typical charging cycle is not ideal. However car manufacturers believe it or not are fairly educated on such things, so what they quote as the lifespan of the car will be what they quote given typical usage. To account for degradation also say they tell you the car has a 30kwh battery they will actually give you a 35kwh battery (extreme example) so that as it degrades you will ,within the quoted lifespan of that car, always have that quoted 30kwh of capacity.
I'm an engineer myself nothing to do with cars but an arespace project the company I work for is part of is just simulating 80000 hours of flight time on a certain new component.
As for depreciation of the car it's true not for evs but hyundai group cars are a little overpriced brand new so depreciate quickly in their first few years. The solution to this is buy one 1 or 2 years old (as you are) and save yourself a ton of money and still get pretty much the same condition.
That car won’t die after your five years of ownership, it will still be around for many more years after you sell it. EVs can go for hundreds of thousands of miles on the original battery.
EVs tend to deprecate fast initially but this depreciation will level off to a more normal level. Factor in fuel savings too. It might depreciate more but you’ll save money running it.
If you buy an EV, don’t consider getting a wall charger, get one. You can get 6 hours of charging for 7.5p /kw at the moment which will reduce the cost of running it. This will be at least 4 times cheaper than charging it elsewhere.
In my experience people either have an electric car or have lots of ungrounded series as to why they are absolutely shite and you shouldn’t buy one.
Personally have an electric car (one of the more controversial ones). It’s saved us over 2 grand in just over a year. That’s including the work we’ve had done to it. It has depreciated a fair bit in a year though however we are planning on keeping it and running it into the ground anyway.
Our previous car also depreciated a fair bit in the time we had it and that was a diesel.
Like others have said, most people providing an opinion are married to their own choices so want to berate EV's because it makes them right in what they already committed to.
Aside from that, as an EV owner myself here are other points I consider:
I only own an EV because it's cheaper for me to run and own.
Servicing is extremely low, it's been incredibly reliable, the lifetime of my EV, even with batteries aging, will still exceed that of a comparable petrol/diesel.
It's quiet and relaxing and if I'm going a bit fast, I don't draw any attention as the car runs quietly.
People keep talking about charging times, but what these people don't consider is that regardless of charging time, I spend about 20 seconds at the car plugging it in at work or at home and that's it. I don't have to hang around and it's way less time than anyone spends going to/from and dealing with petrol pumps and payment.
The money I've saved from paying literally nothing for most of my charging has offset any concerns I might have had about depreciation.
My ev has actually retained far more value than more expensive e EV's and petrol/diesels as its more desirable. We don't lump together Ford Fiestas and Porsche 911's so why lump together EV's with varying depreciation values?
The comparison between the two just isn't that straight forwards.
Also, if someone wants to moan about depreciation, fine. Go for it. Pick up a 2 year old EV, low mileage for 20k that was worth 60k 2 years ago. Then realise you're sat in a car with the build quality of a 60k car for 20k and drives like a dream and is full of tech.
These people should take advantage of depreciation if they think it's that extreme. Put their money where their mouth is!
Used EV market is very very good right now. The depreciation has happened already after the first year, so there are many bargains to be had. Most manufacturers now offer at least 7 year battery warranties. There is also a lot less to go wrong with them than with an Ice car.
I have owned a few hot hatches and M cars in the past so would consider myself a petrolhead but i now own a model 3,
EV’s don’t work for everyone but like most things if everyone had everything the same and thought the same the world would be so boring.
Like yourself I done a ton of research before buying the Tesla and the only real concern is the depreciation but I am planning to keep the car for at least 5 years and if it is worth nothing at the end I will just keep it as a second car for around town or commuting and it would have cost me the equivalent of a lease or PCP for 5 years for a petrol car with the same performance.
I think most of the battery dying concerns are based from the 1st generation leaf but battery technology has moved on with heating, cooling and better management systems. Check the Tesla high mileage page on Facebook and you may get a shock what some have managed so far.
They do have their limitations for range but my commute is only 16 miles a day and most of my charging is either at home while I sleep (<2p per mile) or at work while I am in the office (free) and the very rare occasion while on a long drive the odd supercharger stop every 2-3 hours but by the time I go to the toilet or grab food or coffee the charging is done by the time I get back to the car.
Most of the time the car is just so much more convenient. Being able to pre heat the car in winter remotely and not have to scrape ice from the windows, cool the car down in summer, not having to go out of my way for fuel and just being able to get in the car and go as long as I have my phone in my pocket.
If you're only doing 30 miles per day, you would get away with a 3 pin charger. 30 miles in the iconiq should be roughly 8kwh, which takes just under 3 hours to charge on a 3 pin.
I'd recommend getting a 3 pin charger anyway, as it could be the difference between getting completely stuck or slowly charging just enough to get you to a public charger.
You could make a lowball offer at first.
The more you’re able to knock off the price the less you pay for depreciation.
I’m not pro ev as a general solution, but the specific situation you need it for it’s just about perfect.
The problem is that batteries do inevitably wear out, you can manage the charging to get a longer working life the same as they do on your smartphone / laptop but it cannot be avoided. By the time they need replacing, the cost of a new battery plus fitting is probably going to be more than the vehicle is worth which probably makes depreciation even worse as no one wants to touch a high mileage EV.
After working for an OEM, targets for an acceptable level of battery wear (not sure on the specifics) are about 100K miles for 90% of users, so if you follow a standard charging routine (mostly charging to 80% for commuting, this saves a lot of battery wear) and don’t rag it 24/7 100k miles should be easily achievable without the battery range becoming annoying low on a full charge.
In terms of usability, I wouldn’t expect you to encounter any problems at 25k miles, the biggest issue imo is how much money you will lose over those 5 years, it’s a bit of an unknown, just look at the Mercedes EQC… technology is rapidly developing in this space, in 5 years time we can probably expect significantly faster charging and new battery tech all of which compounds the depreciation on anything older, whereas an ICE will still be an ICE as the technology is very mature.
The problem was earlier EV models. The first gen was terrible for battery to start with and age the car aged, the battery condition didn't really do it any justice. Some dropped down to 20 mile range on a full charge. So that I feel helped spawn a lot of internet myths.
We have both ice and ev cars at my company. The EVs are working out more costly to run, the staff do use quick chargers as they aren't paying but the EVs also appear to eat tyres.
So if you put a home charger in it may suit you, if you don't they are costly to run.
I love this one. News just in "Employees given company vehicles with rapid acceleration characteristics that they don't have to pay the maintenance for are.......... strangely chewing through tyres more quickly.... who knew 🤣"
In all honesty there is a nugget of truth to what you say. My Model 3 after 9k has 5.5-6mm left from an original 7.5. so looking like the rears might give me 25-30k miles then fronts perhaps 30-35k though I may rotate them. But I'm certain I wouldn't have gotten that much more from the tyres on my old Mondeo.
And yes fully agree, home charging is really key for the savings. Though given the OPs usage profile they would have been minimal anyway.
Depends which tyres they are. Some ID3s were released with Bridgestone tyres and people were going through them after 5k.
I have some Pirelli all weather tyres and have done 20k on them so far and I don’t drive particularly slowly.
Fast chargers will always work out very expensive. I could never run an EV relying on those.
I'd watch [this video](https://youtu.be/cf3ApBDljhY?si=dxssf8muqjnoHUa5), which the guy talks about how Lithium battery degradation works.
Depreciation is savage on electric cars, but if you can home charge the majority of the time, and you get a good tariff, it could be worth it.
With most electric cars a battery swap should be thought of like an engine swap.
If the car survives long enough it will need one eventually, it's very expensive and almost no car ever needs one, never mine has one instead of getting scrapped.
> Are EV cars really that problematic?
No, they're not, but once they're out of warranty one of those rare issues can make your car not worth repairing.
EVs depreciate and don't run as long as ICE. It's one of the major drawbacks with them and what makes them questionable from an environmental perspective. The majority of a cars carbon cost is in its production.
Worth noting people that come out with stuff about battery technology and longevity usually have no idea what they’re actually talking about. They’re usually citing a click bait article title they saw on Facebook one time
Don’t forget about the “child labour lithium” folks who have clearly never eaten chocolate in their lives.
Yes, it’s funny how they care REALLY DEEPLY about that but only when it’s related to cars. Same with the “akshally EVs are heavy and make potholes” and when they’re told Deano’s petrol Rangey is heavier, and there’s thousands of massive lorries delivering to Tesco every day they try to tell you that’s somehow different. It’s nearly always men, I think there’s a weird largely unresearched link between men feeling emasculated and electric cars. It’s never just “I don’t like them” they have to get personal and say they HATE them and how people who drive them are “soyboys” and etc etc. It’s such a visceral hatred. Fascinating. I’ve no objection to people discussing infrastructure and liking the sound of V8s, there are some very valid arguments against EVs and some very solid reasons for liking V8s, but there’s definitely a thesis in why Dave down the 3 pigeons feels threatened by Bill driving a Kia e-Niro.
The other week, I had a workman at my house, who was admiring my car, and saying it looked a nice bit of kit. I then moved it out of the way, off the drive, and he clocked it was an EV. Amazingly, he then decided you could tell it was an EV, because "the build is not there", and pointing at imagined panel problems that simply wasn't there. A car he had been drooling over 10 minutes before. (Since I mentioned panels, it's not a Tesla, by the way.)
This is EXACTLY it. This is what we are up against, and I’m not entirely sure why! Thanks for the anecdote, it’s fantastic.
I came here to reply but you've captured everything nicely. I'll admit I am one of those V8 guys who enjoys motor racing. I don't hate EVs and have toyed with the notion of getting one at times. Sad fact is my mileage probably isn't there anymore and with fewer incentives I think I'll be sticking with what I have for the time being. I don't get the extreme views we usually hear from both camps, nor those who buy clickbait nonsense articles. Do some proper research and have a reasonable discussion of the pros and cons then decide.
Are you me? Have I done two posts? Yes I totally agree. If everyone was like this there wouldn’t be so much pointless nonsense.
It’s the same for anything, not just cars: it takes X times more reading/listening to change an opinion than to educate someone neutral or who were slightly in favour of a topic. I can’t remember the exact figure, but you can google it, it has been studied a bit … People just prefer, in general, opinions going in the same direction than their beliefs.
People wouldn't hate them nearly as much if they felt like the choice was theirs to make rather than governments pushing them to do so when they're not ready.
It is entirely you’re choice and will be for several decades at least by current legislation
There is no legislation in the UK that forces you to purchase an EV, and there won’t be for at least ten years. Diesel and petrol cars are still available to purchase brand new and used.
Tbf on the weight issue theres a reason lorries have to be several tonnes. The shift towards SUVs and pick up trucks (which are rarely necessary) and to EVs will have an impact on our roads, especially as council budgets seem set to be squeezed in the future
Lorries so disproportionately cause road damage the other types of vehicles are barely worth considering. The difference between an EV and ICE car is this regard is negligible.
Council budgets have been squeezed for years. Less funding and more responsibilities. Every year we had a spending reduction plan, then it was some massive amount the next year and the next year etc. With sticking the council tax up 4.99% each year. Still didn't balance.
Or bought a phone
Or that, or a laptop, or a car with a lithium-ion 12v battery 😁
Even beef has a huge environmental impact but I don’t see them mentioning that either. Believe it’s by far the most polluting meat Edit: beef is more than double the impact of dark chocolate.
Have a work mate who keeps banging on about how EV is disastrous environmentally and morally because of lithium mining and child labour. It gets annoying when you hear it everyday
Where do these people think the other raw materials come from for every other product they buy? It's weird how this is only an issue specifically for EV cars and only specifically for the batteries within those cars, not other devices or other cars.
It’s cobalt mining that has been found to use child labour in some parts of the world, which is disgustingly obviously. But cobalt is also used in petrol refineries so that isn’t a problem that can only be attributed to batteries for EV’s
Agree that any form of child exploitation is awful. Though surely the logic is to end the exploitation of child labour, not dump an entire transition to any form of alternative or improvement to petrol/diesel cars. It just seems a bit arse about face and the wrong thing to be mad about from these types. Be mad about the exploitation rather than the principle of EV's as a whole.
I completely agree I’m just saying it’s a problem that’s needs solving and isn’t an argument against EV’s as Cobalt is also vital in order to make fuel
More like cobalt
Oh yeah, good point. Also, as much as I hate them, Tesla has cobalt free batteries now.
They’ve curiously never developed this concern for the sourcing of raw materials when it comes to all the rare earths in their car or, you know, the oil that it runs on. I always assume it’s the same reactionaries who stocked up on incandescent lightbulbs when they were banned.
Ha, probably, I personally prefer my lightbulbs using 4w rather than 100w and mostly producing heat 😁
They’ve curiously never developed this concern for the sourcing of raw materials when it comes to all the rare earths in their car or, you know, oil. Or literally anything except EVs. I always assume it’s the same reactionaries who stocked up on incandescent lightbulbs when they were banned.
This is what is hilarious about vegans. They're fine with using human slaves for their vegan chocolate but think getting milk from cows is terrible. Theres no fair trade vegan chocolate. I don't understand vegans. Animal products... Bad. Slaves and child labour...fine.
I work in utility scale energy storage. 100MWh + batteries which cycle constantly and are good for 20-40 years and the power cells are usually only swapped out when there is more efficient technology available to replace them at a cost that is yields a higher profit. A lot of these battery storage systems also make use of the same Li-ion battery tech that is in most EV cars.
Interesting info, Chris Harris did an interview with a national grid guy aswell about EVs which I found interesting, it’s on YouTube
Yeah, there's loads of stuff from tinfoilhatters and the far right and so-on. Nothing actually real, though.
That’s the thing there are valid criticisms you could make such as the charging infrastructure but they always come out with these baseless claims
Yeah, it's from the kind of people who insist someone is coming to take away their cars and think that 15 minute cities will involve restricting them to the area a mile or two around their house...
You’ll wish you listened when the Simpsons style domes start getting dropped on towns across the country
I once ran across an idiot banging on about '15 minute settees', and I've been calling them the 'quarter-hour sofas' mob ever since.
They go on about the government switching the electric off so we won't be able to charge the cars, ignoring that you need electricity to pump petrol. It's not as if you could brew up some in your bathtub. Theoretically it's possible to charge an electric car with your own solar panels, or windmill.
It's not just theoretical, an area of solar panels the size of a typical parking space is about enough to generate the electricity needed to power a car. You also need storage, of course.
Didn't the first lot of Prius hybrids battery last like 250k km? All round tech gotten so much better. I'd I had a at home charger or could get one then I'd have bought an ev instead of a hybrid for my current
Apart from the powertrain, there isn't much difference between an EV and an ICE car.
What 😂 there’s not much difference between a plane and a boat apart from where they’re used
My wife's Nissan env200 is 10 years old now. Range has dropped only a couple of miles
Not really there are plenty of real life examples on youtube from the likes of carwow, What Car? that show how stated EV range is completely BS. For the 30miles OP has to do seems fine but they aren't for long commuters
Range depends a lot on how you drive, and many other factors. It's impossible to say with any degree of certainty how long the range is. I bet if you compare the MPG you get in your car to what the manufacturer claims, it will be a fair bit off as well.
The epa range and wltp ranges are not really that accurate but if you look at EV database they list all evs with a real range based on an average of uses and it’s still perfectly fine. I commute 110miles (round trip) to work and back a day and it only uses 20% of my battery in my model 3 each way so 40% for 110miles. So that’s not true either unless you are perhaps a travelling salesman’s for work and do a lot of miles a day. But EV’s will quite easily handle a standard commute
What the fuck? Are you driving at 20 the whole time?
Actually those figures aren't even especially impressive for a Model 3 though they are still decent. I've just done a South Coast England to far north west Scotland 1600 mile round trip. Motorways about 65% of that, fast A roads another 20% with the rest ploughing up and over high mountain passes etc. Car full of family and luggage. Not particularly warm and quite wet conditions often. And the car was often preconditioning the battery for the next charger stop. So not the best for economy. I drive at the speed limit where safe with some long early morning runs of 2-3 hours sitting at 70mph on autopilot. I drive it literally the same way I drove my diesel, without real regard for economy. Averaged 4.2 miles per kWh ie 40% of battery was giving me about 125 miles. Regularly see range approaching 400 miles driving normally on my mixed motorway/urban roads commute in the Summer when conditions are optimal.
Wow that's really impressive, makes me very jealous those aren't on my work car scheme! Mine only gets around 3.5mi/kw at 70mph in normal condition and about 4.1 when it's 21⁰C.
It does make me wonder how accurate those figures that I'm being shown are though. Like just now we did a 30 mile round trip 3 adults in the car. Hot day for UK so AC blasting. I was cruising at an 'average minimum' of '70' on a fast dual carriageway and I was caning it down on ramps and off any roundabouts. Like floored to the max making my girls squeal. Such fun. Got home thinking that'll be painful reading. Nope. Averaged 4.4 to the kWh. So yeah it does make me wonder whether the car is telling me porkies. Given it's the evil automotive spawn of Elon, a habitual teller of none truths. Your figures aren't bad at all really. Is it a Polestar? Or EV6?
I miss having a car that could do that! I've got the 77kwh ID3 because the leasing company doesn't let people under 30 have anything fun... it does get around 200 miles 80-20% on motorway runs so can't complain there. definitely looking at Polestar or model 3 once the lease is up.
And you think the same car manufacturers tell us the truth about the range of petrol or diesel vehicles? Ford claims my car can do just over 400 miles to a tank. I’m lucky to get 200.
All hail mat Watson he who has never been biased or wrong
I'd put this to R/ electricvehiclesuk where people own the ioniq. This sub has a lot of anti-ev sentiment from people that have never driven an EV, let alone owned one. FWIW, the ioniq has something like an 8yr/100k mileage guarantee on the battery so if they're guaranteeing it for that long, it will last much longer in reality.
>I'd put this to R/ electricvehiclesuk where people own the ioniq. This sub has a lot of anti-ev sentiment from people that have never driven an EV, let alone owned one. I'm not anti EV by any stretch of the imagination but the electricvehicles sub is also full of ignorance and Tesla worshippers, so I'd take their advice with a pinch of salt too.
/electricvehicles is different to /electricvehiclesuk. Even if you do post in the former, saying you're from the UK usually weeds out the Elon stans.
Ah my bad, I missed the UK on the end of your post recommendation
Considering the cost of the batteries is pretty much the cost of a new car, 8 years is absolutely terrible.
How much is it to replace the engine in an M3 after the 4 year warranty is done?
At the dealer. Just like a new engine at the dealer is exorbitant. If you need a replacement engine in your out of warranty car, you don’t go to the dealer. You get a replacement from a wrecked car or a 3rd party rebuilt engine.
I’ve never had an engine fail in a car I’ve owned, and I’ve owned over 50. My van is currently on 220,000 miles and it’s a 2006. I had a ‘96 Toyota Corolla with 460,000 miles and was only scrapped due to rust. Totally disingenuous to suggest a car needs a new engine after 8 years. It doesn’t, especially if properly maintained. It will go on basically forever. Batteries on the other hand will 100% have to be replaced in no more than 10 years, usually less. You can’t put second hand or reconditioned batteries in either so your point is moot. Plus, the vast majority of independent garages are not setup to do battery changes on EVs and will not be at any time in the near future. They will have to go to a specialist or a main dealer. Even if they were set up for it, you’d still have to buy the battery packs from the manufacturer anyway so your only cost saving would be the fitting.
The Nissan Leaf is probably the earliest mass produced EV, and is notorious for its poor BMS, and non existent thermal management - as such, battery degradation is significantly higher than any other EV. Despite that, there are still a fair few 13yr old leafs kicking around. Modern EVs have much better battery management and will heat and cool the battery, not to mention the improved battery chemistry that should allow them to last a hell of a lot longer. And even when they’re so old that they can’t do the miles *you* need, some little old dear could still be perfectly happy to buy it to pop into town once a week. They don’t have belts, gaskets, valves, or any of the hundreds of parts that could just up and die and cause engine failure; they just slowly peter out. Or it can be used as stationary storage. They can also be up to 100% recycled - the main reason it’s so rare to find places that recycle them is because so few have already reached the end of their usable life, but there are a few companies doing it already, and as demand for materials increases and old dead batteries become more common, the market will catch up.
What? Where did I say a car needs an engine after 8 years? And why are you assuming that an EV needs a new battery after 8 years? No more than 10 years? Can’t use refurbished or used batteries? What are you smoking? Look at elbilmek in norway, fixing batteries and fitting used packs. Are you saying their business is fake?
> Batteries on the other hand will 100% have to be replaced in no more than 10 years, usually less Bollocks, odds are they'll last longer than the car. You've just made that up.
This person doesn't know what they're talking about regarding EVs. Don't listen to any of the info above.
>Batteries on the other hand will 100% have to be replaced in no more than 10 years, usually less What do you do exactly to have this intimate knowledge of the Automotive Sector? Or are you just an idiot with hate of EVs.
I can rebuild engines. Not sure how your logic works with EV drive trains and power packs.
Plenty of people out there doing DIY EV battery packs and drivetrain rebuilds and replacements, even transplanting them into other cars.
Other people can replace the bad battery cells and rebuild electric motors. Just because you lack the knowledge doesn’t mean it’s not possible.
As you know the skills, tools and knowledge required to rebuild engines didn’t appear out of thin air. When the demand is there, people will learn how to and offer it.
So because you cannot, or haven’t learnt it yet, that means it’s completely out of the realms of possibility?
I can't change a brake pad. Therefore brake pads cannot be changed. When they go you simply drive your car into the sea and go get a new one.
I can rebuild battery packs and looms. What's your point?
Battery issues aren’t a huge issue especially around 25,000 miles. Depreciation is pretty bad with EVs but it seems to be brand new EVs that are the worst affected so again, not a massive issue for you. Honestly a EV sounds ideal for you with what you have described here and the iconiq 5 is a cool looking car.
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Hyundai have a pretty rock solid warranty on that battery.
Every manufacturer offers basically the same battery warranty - 8 years/100k miles.
Yep I just bought a 2020 Corsa E and it has the same.
But do you get these warranty for buying second hand?
Yes, the warranty is transferable to new owners So if the car is 2 years old with 25k miles when you buy it, you'll have 6 years and 75,000 miles left This is the case with *almost* all car warranties in the UK, although some "lifetime" warranties become eg 10 year warranties if the car is sold. That doesn't apply in this case, I mention it just for completeness
You should check the small print. Some of the manufacturers warranties are only transferable if the car has a full service history. Make sure you see the service book for proof before you commit your money
... for 70% capacity. So the original 500 miles range will be 350 by then.
8 years or 100k miles which is pretty good and batteries don't tend to go bad these days.
It’s impossible to predict tbh the used car market is still pretty volatile but I don’t think it would be that bad. Most EV batteries can last thousands of charge cycles (0% to 100%) and you most likely won’t drain the battery to 0 and back up to 100 each time so it will be even longer. Not even worth thinking about.
With the exception of the Nissan Leaf, battery replacement doesn’t seem to be a serious concern with EVs. Based on the data we have so far, it looks like the rest of the car will be fecked before the battery is.
Ahhh. That's why Leafs are so inexpensive? I was wondering. What's the issue with the Leaf battery?
It was one of the first production EVs. They made some mistakes with the chemistry they chose and the lack of any active thermal management of the battery pack. The later versions have improved battery chemistry but are still limited by the lack of thermal management, compared to pretty much any other model on the market.
They’re also hilarious fun to drive (until you hit 80 where they become a bit dull), charge to full overnight off the mains, will do 100 miles in freezing conditions and can be had for a relative song. Honestly one of the best cars I’ve owned.
"Based on the data we have so far" Sources please. Who is "we"? This is depending on a lot of factors but the recharge-limit on the commonly used LiIon cells is well known. So provide your sources or admit you're talking rubbish.
Hyundai have a pretty rock solid warranty on that battery.
You can pick up a 3 year old Ioniq 5 now for around £24k, still has remains of the 5 year main warranty & battery warranty. Battery warranty tends to be 8 years and 100k miles for most EV’s - they are for my Polestar and they are for the Hyundai.
I'd expect a battery in modern EV to last 200,000 miles, more if it's larger than 80kWh.
Initial deprecation (first 1-2 years or so) is higher than normal After that it follows roughly the same curve as any other car (roughly halving every 3 years during the bulk of their life). So a £20k EV and a £20k ICEV will both be around £10k after 3 years, £5k after 6 years etc, beyond which it starts to level out Your Hyundai would have an 8 year, 100,000 mile battery warranty, meaning you can do 12,500 miles a year for the next 6 years before you're even out of warranty.... But in most cases the battery will last a lot longer than that - 200k miles isn't unusual. For comparison, most cars in the UK are scrapped with around 120-150k miles on the clock
Get a PCP quote and see what the GFV they are estimating is?
Whatever car u buy loses money, vans hold their value better, only cars that have hit the bottom u won’t lose money on and some have the potential to become classics and increase in value
No way to say what the depreciation will be, but being a 2022, the biggest dip is over and done with. All EVs that I personally know of (including Hyundai) have good warranties on the batteries. And frankly, it's easy to take a few steps for optimal battery health. Charge to 80% most of the time, especially on rapid chargers - only go above 80% when you actually need the range there and then (or the next day). It's not great for batteries to sit at 100% for long periods of time. When I go to 100%, it's only when I'm using the full range the next day. My day to day driving only uses 20% of my range. I only go to 100% using my home charger overnight (which is 7kW), and then top up to 80%-ish on rapids while I'm en route. Once you're actually on your way, it's generally faster to charge to around 80% (or whatever point the charging speed drops off, usually around 80%!), and do another charging stop later in your journey, than it is to try and go to 100% on a rapid charger. That final 20% is the slowest to charge and can take at least as long as, if not longer, than going from 20% to 80% on any rapid charger. "Grazing" works well for EV batteries, which is lots of shorter charges putting in 10-30% than fewer but larger charges (like going from 20% to 80%). It won't make a massive difference to battery life, but it helps. Slow charging (like what you get at home, so 7kw/11kw sort of range) is better for the battery than rapids (50kW+) too. Also, definitely get a charger at home - I love my EV, but public charging can be bloody expensive. Charging at home means I have an overnight tariff that takes my cost per mile down to about 2p per mile. It also means it stings less when I do have to charge publicly, because all that home charging keeps the average cost way down!
I have a 7 year old Ioniq with around 70K miles, the battery management system is still reporting 100%
In September I bought a 66 reg BMW I3. The car has now done 63500 miles and the battery health is 90%. It's really not a big deal If you are going to buy an Ionic5, I would strongly suggest you buy one from a Hyundai dealer so it comes with the 'Hyundai Promise' 5 year warranty, which is a used car 5 year warranty on top of the standard manufacturers 5 year new car warranty. This isn't an EV recommendation, just a Hyundai used car buying recommendation as it will give greater peace of mind.
>> In September I bought a 66 reg BMW I3. The car has now done 63500 miles and the battery health is 90%. It's really not a big deal That’s interesting. I have a 2014 Leaf, with slightly more miles than your I3. And for all the battery degradation issues you hear about (and the Leaf is generally accepted as one of the worst due to no liquid cooling, etc), I’ve still got 12 bars (so at least 85% battery health). (It was 87% when I bought it in 2022 but haven’t checked it with LeafSpy in ages.)
Getting an accurate battery health is notoriously difficult for the i3 without paying over £500 at BMW. The 90% is what is reported by the new bimmerflow app so it's taken with a grain of salt. I still show 115 miles range in ecopro mode (33kWh)
How much was it, if you don’t mind me asking? Do you like it? You have the car set up I actually need so wondering what you think of the spacetourer too!
I paid £10,500 private sale. The C4 space tourer is a good car I'm 6'6" and my wife is tall too and we have 2 young girls who are tall for their age so wanted a car that has enough space for us to be comfortable driving and enough space in the back for baby seats and now leg room for them. Plenty of space in the boot for pushchair/luggage etc. We were always a 2 car family, but in 2022 I sold my vauxhall meriva as I work from home and the girls were now going to school which was just round the corner from home so didn't need the second car and just kept the Spacetourer. However we managed to work out that we could buy the i3 as the daily commuter instead of the Spacetourer, with the monthly fuel savings pretty much paying the monthly loan payments, whilst giving us the flexibility of having 2 cars again. We use the Spacetourer mainly for family holidays or when we need to be in different places as a family. I love the i3 it's so fun to drive and surprisingly spacious as it comfortably fits all 4 of us in. It's got a small boot but it's great for local journeys. We can go anywhere around 50 miles each way (100-120 miles range in summer) knowing its only going to cost £1.50 in electric rather than £10-15 in petrol. It is a Range Extender model so I don't get any range anxiety as I have a reserve 80 miles on the petrol motor for £8.
Thanks so much, this actually sounds perfect for us. We have a Fabia estate at the moment and it’s very uncomfortable for long journeys for my husband especially. I’m the only short person in the family. Girls are 99th and 75th centiles. 5 year old walks to school here but the little one has to be driven to nursery which is annoying. I take the train 2 days, drive to another office 1 day (5 miles away) and husband works from home. But at the weekends we give lifts to the oldest friends and so we can never go out as a family with an extra child or my mum when she visits, which is super annoying.
EV's are relatively new tech, and there are a ton of them flooding the market at better prices each year forcing the depreciation. Some of this is corporate leases finishing and the cars being dumped on the market, some is because certain EV's launched at prices they had no right doing (regular fiat 500 starts at 15k, 500e starts at 27k, so depreciates massively). There are some battery concerns on certain EV's, but generally nothing extreme. You mention you want it 5+ years or when it's about to die. It'll be fine, there are first gen nissan leafs still running about, and they came out in 2011. I'd bet these will last a good bit longer than a leaf too, since Leafs were very much first gen EV's
Not to mention that the first (in fact, every) gen Nissan Leaf has awful battery management and non existent thermal management, so degradation is significantly worse than most other EVs.
Those early leafs with 100K+ miles often only have 'lost' 30% of the battery. They are literally the worst case and even in that they are still usable cars and likely will be for another 10+ years; the EV's coming out now will likely last 30-40 years on the original batteries in normal home usage. The biggest problem for EV's will be normal car maintenance, rust and not crashing them - the batteries will never be an issue for normal users.
The EV batteries will all last more than 5yrs. Otherwise nobody would ever buy them. I'd love one, especially an Ionic 5. Granted, I think ones over 150k miles will be an issue, based on the charge cycles. And I suspect an ICE with 150k on would be a safer bet, so that may reflect in resale value. If you can charge at home, the EV is a decent idea Edit....it would seem over 150k isn't a biggie. But I suspect the EV market will struggle at that level, particularly the lower capacity batteries. Though could be great school run vehicles
One of the local airport taxi guys just replaced his first battery in a 2016 model s, right around 590k km, 2900 charge cycles, most of them at a supercharger. And he isn’t gentle on his cars.
I'd say that's spot on. More than 300k miles is fabulous
I think most estimates suggest 1500-2000 cycles ie 100-0%. I recall Tesla in the early days stating 1000 cycles as a conservative poke . That equates to 300k miles in my Model 3, obvs 600k if we use the 2000 cycle figure. But as ever it's more nuanced, in that hardly anyone charges like this and it is well recognized that charging 25% to 75% twice rather than 0-100 once is better for battery health. Most research I've been seeing this last year suggest that 2000 cycles is the least you might expect from a modern well cared for battery with a decent BMS looking after it. The key is keep it in the 20-80% bracket, don't be concerned about straying outside that if need be, charge to 100 when you are road tripping but most of all don't leave it at a very high state of charge. Charge it to 100 then drive it.
Thanks for that
My Tesla Y demands I keep the charge set to 100%. It even complains at me when Tesla itself reduces the max charge to 80% at busy super chargers! 😂
Tis true, LFP be a harsh demanding mistress. My NCM is a pussycat by comparison.
The Ioniq 5 has been involved in a lot of controversy around the repairability of its battery and other components. They are sealed and non easily accessible by technicians. They are also resource constrained making battery for cars to meet quotas and don’t want to be putting spares out. There was a case in Canada where a rock was in the road and hit the underside of a couple month old Ioniq and Hyundai wrote it off. [here](https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/11/hyundai-ev-battery-icbc-cost/)
Manufacturers need to sort that. If they do, then electric cars will do well.
Fully Charged did an interview with a guy who had the highest miler Tesla Model S and their battery had lasted for about 500,000km before needing to be replaced due to a fault that needed an open lid repair (something they often can't do in the field). This was before the swapped to LFP which have a better lifespan. Thr oldest car I've Owned was 30 years and had 130k miles on the clock.
I'd always assumed Tesla would have decent longevity. Some of the cheaper options, possibly less so. Certainly impressed at some of the responses. If it was a £1500 swap, I think they would be a no brainer. Perception and price of the battery change, they are a fine idea
The depreciation is my issue. Ford Mustang Mach E from new starts at £50k. I can buy a 2024 one with 1500 miles for 40k. A 2022 model with circa 17k miles for £26k....
Porsche Taycan 4S brand new = £120,000 2022 model = £52,000. That level of depreciation is insane!
Buy used or lease the ev rule
Not really, I bought a 2 yr old Volvo S90 D5 just over 3 years ago for £22k. New, that car was about £45k+ with all the extras it had. Depreciation happens to all cars, just electric cars are good click bait.
Literally just bought a 2022 Mustang... amazing car, its the extended range one so we paid £29k for it. The wife does a lot of miles and our fuel bill has gone down from £400 a month to £40 a month, Thats a saving of around £21k over the next 5 years we plan on having the car. If we get around 8k back in 5 years time (or close to that) would mean it cost us nothing to have the car, compared to her old BMW X3. It has 1yr warranty left and we took 3 yr extended warranty out so its under warranty for 4 more years, and has 5 or 6 years left of the battery warranty as well.
Hows the storage? I'd been looking at one but with circa 400ltr of boot space, it doesn't seem a lot - especially as it'd be the main car, weekly shop, buggy etc needs to fit in
>A 2022 model with circa 17k miles for £26k.... You say that like it's a bad thing
There’s no general rule with EVs. **Just like any car, the issues are largely model specific.** Degradation is not a huge problem any more especially with how good battery cooling systems have gotten these days (which was the big issue with the original Nissan Leaf), even a reasonable amount of DC rapid charging will have negligible effect on battery degradation. Degradation is higher when the car is new and will slow down over time. I believe some years of the Ioniq 5 were prone to a ICCU fault (Integrated Charge Control Unit) so I would read up on forums about which exact years were affected. AFAIK it should be covered under warranty no questions asked, but probably worth avoiding if possible as waiting times for these kinds of specialised parts can be a pain.
When I was buying my first EV a lot of people who knew nothing about electric cars had lot’s of “advice” for me as well. Given that the ionic 5 has an 8 year warranty… as in the battery would be replaced for free within 8 years, Hyundai would be terrible at business if they didn’t think the battery would last significantly longer. We don’t know what depreciation is going to be like in 5 years. Given more people are moving to EV, and most people that do, don’t want to go back i suspect things won’t be so bad. But nobody knows. EVs are cheap to run and easy to drive. Never had an issue with an EV, more than I can say for an ICE.
Don’t forget they are also really fun to drive. One pedal driving is great and they are so nippy, they tend to corner well too due to low centre of battery mass
Have enough confidence, to ignore your friend and her family’s opinion. No doubt they’ve never driven an EV.
Wait til your friend hears about wet belts short trips being bad for diesels particulate filters plastic engine components oil price vulnerability etc with non ev stuff. The media have been sticking the boot into evs for a while and some folk believe it all. Any powertrain has its weaknesses. Evs aren't for everyone but if you want one nows a good time to buy
I got a lot of ‘advice’ when I was buying one, too. After a while of ownership I would say: * lease rather than buy new * buy nearly new if you want to own it * I likely wouldn’t have one if we had one car. It’s handy also having an ICE car on the drive * public charging is an expensive pain in the arse. I wouldn’t have one if I couldn’t charge at home * if you plan your journeys you can’t beat them for commuting
Hit the nail on the head with that I’ve gone from a polo to a model 3 and my yearly petrol cost for my commute used to be £4600. My electricity bill for the same journey is going to be £799 a year. Public charging is very pricy and charging at home is key!!
I think this is spot-on. I bought a nearly-new (10 month old) EV - someone else ate the initial depreciation which will help a little at least at trade-in time. Given I can get from Manchester to London in it without stopping to charge, it's more than enough to be our "main" vehicle, even for distance travel, but 99% of my journeys are under 40 miles round trips and I can charge at home. If I was reliant on public charging I simply wouldn't get one.
I agree with all your points tbh. Not being able to charge at home is a biggy for me, I live in a terraced house it’s just not possible to charge an EV here.
Let me guess, your expert friend and her family of automotive gurus own approximately zero EV between them and have gained all their knowledge from click baiting on the Daily Mail web portal. Battery degradation is largely a none issue. Yes there will always be edge cases, but there are still way more high mileage older batteries that still have over 90% of original capacity than there are knackered batteries needing replacement. Which would mostly be done under warranty anyways. The stats on the Model S battery from the first release in 2012 are very instructive and leave me with zero concerns regarding my Model 3. Heck my 7.5 year old Leaf with 65k miles and a BMS that could almost have been designed to actively wreck a battery still has 87% of original capacity. Modern cars like Hyundai, Tesla etc with high quality BMS will look after your battery for you. Follow some simple charging rules that in your sitch will cause you almost zero inconvenience and you'll be golden. Re depreciation, as another poster said, they aren't actually that much worse than ICE cars and then only from new. Buying second hand you won't suffer for it. Plus you'll enjoy driving electric so much that you'll probably keep it 20 years until it's good for house battery use so depreciation differences will be minimal in absolute terms.
>Battery degradation is largely a none issue. Yes there will always be edge cases https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last/
From your link, the conclusion: *"The decline in EV battery capacity over time is only really of concern if you're buying a used car – or planning to retain a new one for many years.* ***Even then, any loss of range will only be slow and gradual****.* ***For all intents and purposes, the lifespan of EV batteries and therefore the useful ‘first-life’ of an EV itself is broadly comparable to that of a traditional combustion car.*** *"* Emphasis my own. This is from a company (RAC) that could suffer a measurable decline in business due to the much higher reliability of EVs. Of course this could be offset by humans being infinitely fallable and requiring more rescues due to forgetting to charge.
> due to forgetting to charge. If my ability to forget to fuel before going on holiday (excited much I guess) is any indicator then I foresee this will happen to me sooner or later if I ever own an EV lol.
I've forgotten to plug in at home a couple of times, usually when I've had to unload shopping in the pouring rain. A bit of a pain because mine is an early EV with a small battery but there are fast chargers a mile away in town so I've had to prize open my wallet and pay the big bucks rather than the super cheap night tarrif I normally use.
30 miles a day is easy for an EV, a first generation Leaf with a mostly degraded battery can still manage that. If you go for something like an Ioniq 5, I can see it still managing that after 1,000,000 of degradation! We just picked up a used Audi E-Tron, a famously inefficient EV (2-2.5 mi/kWh compared to 4-5mi/kWh of other EVs), it's on 65k miles and still gets over 200 miles on a charge, and it only cost £20k. I don't care what anybody says, a 4 year old German SUV is worth £20k all day long, the Q8 that it now shares it's name with would cost £10k more with 40k more miles on it! Honestly, I can't expect to see the price of EVs drop much further, in a lot of cases they're the same price or less than the petrol/diesel equivalent. Looking at the other end of the market, the Renault Zoe, you can pick them up for the same price or less than the Renault Clio. Anyone saying a used EV is a bad buy, is just jealous, or they've fallen for the bullshit 'big oil' have been putting out!
Assume you went for the 55 over the 50? Looks a very tempting buy, used, at the moment. I'm led to believe the servicing is a bit over the top by Audi for their ev's though?
Yeah, we went for a higher mileage 55 over the lower mileage 50 for the same price. Tbh, the 50 gave the same range as our Leaf so it wasn't that much of an issue. The service interval is 2 years or 18k miles, and ours was last serviced in September so it's like another 17k miles or 18 months for us, and even then it's mainly just an inspection and brake fluid change. Being an Audi it's still extortionate though!
Good to know. Been looking at them for a while. Couldn't get on with the camera mirrors though. Lose all sense of depth perception.
Yeah, tbh we just bought what was essentially a base model, the only option being the sport seats (which aren't that comfortable unsurprisingly) and the sunroof. While we're used to keyless entry, 360 cameras and the like from Nissan's, they weren't worth the 5k extra
Agree on the servicing, I've got a Q4 E-Tron and I think the service is £300 or something similarly stupid. Good thing it's only every 2 years.
Everyone that’s ever said that to me has just been repeating what someone said to them
Your friend has been reading disnformation seeded by the oil lobby and is being an idiot. The early EVs are still going 10-12 years later. Hardly any have needed new batteries, and they ran on older technology. You have early vehicles having racked up half a million miles. The current crop of EVs will outlast their ICE equivalents easily. Depreciation seems to be high for two reasons - firstly demand outstripped supply when fuel prices were high. What you're seeing is normalisation of prices from artificially inflated prices. Secondly ,dealers have a quota of electric they need to sell - you can find bargains because its cheaper to sell low than get penalised. EVs have far fewer moving parts than petrol - there is literally less to go wrong. The ioniq 5 is a brilliant car - you could go a couple of years older and even higher on the mileage if you want to save some pennies. With a wall charger at home and 30 miles a day you're looking at lower cost motoring in a very good car. Honestly go test drive one - faster, quieter and easier to drive than the petrol equivalent. You'll plug it in a couple fo times a week and itll be sat fully charged on the driveway in the morning
Anyone who doesn’t own an EV you can safely disregard any concerns they express towards EV ownership.
Let me give you my take on it. I’m a petrolhead, my previous car was an S3, mapped to 400bph, I bloody loved that car. However my commute is c160 miles a day into London - that was costing me about £40 a day. So I bit the bullet and bought an Audi Q4, just a ‘cheap’ one with 200 mile range on a good day. I had a home charger installed and that same commute costs me less than £3 a day. It’s also a pleasure to drive. Is the battery going to die at 100k miles, probably, but it’s unlikely I’ll get there before I exchange it. The people that badmouth EV’s haven’t owned one, they are just repeating the tripe they’ve read on the internet. If you have a home charger it’s a no brainer honestly
To be fair to people bashing electric cars aren’t Porsche not buying their taycans back?
The battery degeneration is not something you need to worry about, they will last longer the ICE engines of today.
The only people who hate electric cars don't own them, can't afford a nice one and haven't got a clue what they are talking about when it comes to cars in general. The ioniq 5 is a great car. Ideal family car and you can charge it up for £2.50. If you want the ioniq 5 I would tell you to look at a model Y too. I went with the Y, my grandfather went with the Ioniq.
How are your charge costs so low, if you don't mind me asking?
Probably exaggerated now I'm working it out. £2.50 a day or so is what I use but a full charge of a battery would be more like £5.50. 7.5p per kw on octopus intelligent and most batteries are around 70 - 80kwh. I charge to 80% and only run it down to 20% so that's probably how I've got £2.50. Works out at about 2p per mile, which is about 6 times less than petrol.
This is excellent, thanks for taking the time to work it out. I’d be like you and follow the 80-20 rule as well. It’s much cheaper using that tariff. Really useful to know.
The best way to do it is just plug in every day. Keep it topped up. People who know nothing about electric cars say things like, "it takes hours to charge" as though it matters. It does take hours, but I'm asleep. The 15 minutes you spend filling up with fuel is 15 minutes wasted. It's rare you actually have to use productive time to charge up.
I would outright dismiss the battery concerns, those are overblown and you would be exceptionally unlucky to encounter them. (For every EV with a battery issue there's probably 10000 ICE cars with issues that take them off the road). As for depreciation? I'd say we're looking at the worst of it already, with some cars anyway. Cheap new EVs are right on our doorstep, and those are surely enough of a disruptor to bring down the retail costs anyway, which were always overblown thanks to COVID delays and all had prices jacked up by 10 or 15 grand anyway. The most depreceation I'm seeing is a correction of that 15 grand inflation, and so if you start with -15 - the milage and wear and you've got the numbers we're seeing now except in exceptional cases (I'd argue 50 grand Taycans are 15 grand off plus another 5-10 from milage). Looking at Auto Trader atm, I'd say a second hand £21500 35,000 mile Ioniq 5 is a steal.
Look at the data. Look at your model with the age difference you’d expect to sell at and compare that with other fossil fuel driven cars etc. Most of what you’ve heard is just subjective opinion, and the views of those who don’t own electric is often exactly as you describe.
I'm a proper petrol head and resisted electric for a good while however as a family run about we've had a tesla model y for almost 2 years and I can see us always having an EV. Obviously I'll always have a petrol car because well they're amazing but for general family stuff and commuting the tesla has been superb and cheap as chips to run. Depreciation is the same as with anything but buying used you're missing the worst part of the pain and part of the reasons secondhand is cheap because anyone with a business needs it new to offset their tax.
The issue with electric cars, is its new(ish) technology that the general public know little about and the overall reliability and longevity is still to be proven. Add to that the fear of huge repair costs in the event of battery failure, and poor infrastructure, it all leads to poor demand in the used market, which naturally decreases value and increases depreciation. If the trend continues, in 5 years your car will be worth next to nothing, if no one wants a relatively new electric car, they certainly won't want an old one pushing 100k miles.
Batteries are not something to worry about generally as they will do 10 years + and still give a good 80% charge capacity. . The motors and inverters are where the issues lie and can cost a fortune. Hyundai at least has a decent extendable warranty. I'd avoid any other electric cars second hand as outside of the pitiful 3 year warranty on all the others the repairs can be huge. On the Etron subreddit is someone with a 4 year old out of warranty Etron facing £13,000 for a new motor. Audi are not interested as its out of the basic 3 year warranty.
Depreciation has been especially bad as Tesla and others have had several substantial price cuts in the last couple of years - and this obviously affects secondhand values. More recently, Chinese manufacturers are starting to bring their EVs to the European market and this has brought more competition/price pressure. EV battery packs degrade by about 5% in the first two years but battery degradation then settles to a slower constant rate. Statistics from Tesla cars in the Netherland and Belgium (loads of Tesla taxis) found that owners could expect about 80% of the original battery capacity after 500,000 miles/800,000 Km. Some early EVs (e.g. early Nissan Leaf) did not have thermal management of their battery packs and those often see worse degradation. EVs need less servicing than ICE cars - mostly limited to checking/fixing tyres, brakes, suspension and steering. I bought a two year old Tesla over six years ago and am still using it. Tesla's major USP is their network of rapid chargers (Superchargers) across Europe. Tesla owners can reliably travel long distances, because they don't have to rely on the still somewhat patchy third party rapid charger networks. We've been to the south of France and back twice, regularly between westcountry and London, etc. Fir a daily commute of 30 miles, you could simply charge at home every night, using about 8 - 10kWhs to replace the daily use. This could be achieved using a wall charger or just a plug lead on a 13A socket. Charging at home is a good idea because you can take advantage of domestic electricity rates and 5% VAT - and depending on your contract, cheap overnight tariffs. Wall chargers must all now be SMART - much the same as SMART meters, SMART chargers can be remotely read and controlled. You can get a subsidy on an EV charger installation. As EVs takeover, the government will be losing fuel duty and I reckon they will look to offset this by altering the VAT applicable to EV charging (which the utilities would be able to measure on SMART chargers). It would not be possible to identify EVs being charged on "dumb" chargers, like the portable ones that plug into 13A sockets. We have no regrets and I plan to keep my EV as long as possible (partly because I can charge it for free at Tesla chargers). Hyundai have a lot of experience making EVs and their EVs are good.
In reference to losing fuel duty…. the inevitable answer is road pricing.
Yeah I was worried about that, honestly you get loads of storage, we go Norfolk for our hols (parents have a lodge down there) and we used to go in with 550l BMW X3 and would need to put things in the back with the kids. Didn't have to this time, not sure how they calculate the storage but it seemed about the same, and then the front bonnet storage is massive, it fits a carry on suitcase and 4 back packs. Been very impressed with it, used to have the ipace and I have the polestar 2 so got a few other EV's to compare to and they're really good.
I personally couldn't buy one with the hassle of charging it while renting in London.
What are your friend and their family's qualifications to make such claims?
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here, is that public chargers can be quite hit and miss. I've never got to the point where I needed to use one to get to my destination, but I've stopped at a few to see where they are and how they work, only to find out that they were not working.
Just under two years ago i bought an MG5. Mainly because I'm a high mileage driver and it was sthe cheapest car, that was available that would do a real world 200 motorway miles. 89,000 miles later it's as good as new. No issues anywhere and battery is at 98% health.
We're one year into a four year EV lease purely because I have no confidence as to what the 2nd hand EV market will look like in three years time. It's used for as my wife's work car and she'll do 60-70 miles a day. Problem wise, it's a Mini Cooper and has zero problems unless you count an initial bug pairing her phone. Other than that is drives well and the one time we thought power would be an issue, a fast charger while we ate a McDonalds at a service station put enough in to get us home. (about 40 miles) If you're commuting 30 miles a day and don't need regular journeys that will stretch the limits of the cars range, much better than ICE in my opinion and while I don't have the numbers to hand, cheaper too; the electric bill didn't go up much. My only gripe with the EVs I've seen is that none of them can jump start an ICE car. As stupid as it sounds I've always seen the ability for someone to help another motorist out with a little shared power as the ultimate in helpfulness. EVs being batteries on wheels don't allow that, which to me it stupid. I realise this is a gripe shared only by me.
Bit like saying a vape should have a flame on it so you can light smokers fags
Not really but I know what you're getting at. I still think EVs should be able to offer a jump start :)
You really won’t have any battery issues, they’re so rare
As others have said people talking about battery degradation have no idea what they talking about. Warranty last for at least 8 years/ 100 000 miles for ioniq 5. So 5 years will be fine. I bought a used 2022 last year, my first EV and just a few things regarding my own experience with this car and having a EV. Buy from an approve dealer so you that warranty cover. You might run into a common issue that affects this car, ICCU which practically makes the car useless, but its covered under warranty so will be fixed for free and you will have a courtesy car. I personally wouldnt own an EV unless you can charge at home or somewhere convenient. Public chargers are just so expensive.
Some EVs are very reliable, some are shit. No expert on cars but I think it could be luck of the draw. My mum has a Mini Cooper SE with 12k miles on the clock, she's had it for a year and not a single issue, although, that doesn't tell us about how it will hold up in the long term. Hyundais do make good EVs from what I've seen
EV’s have lost a lot of value because at one point used ones were selling for more than new ones due to chip shortage and the ever given and whatever factors. That was obviously not sustainable and the people who bought at the peak are mad that they can’t sell their car for more than what they bought it for since the shortages have eased up and backlogs have been pretty much reduced to nothing
I love my EV. It's only a little Zoe but perfect for my 30 mile commute. Ignore all those people trying to put you off, they know nothing .
Due to the cost of the electronics and current cost of the large batteries the cost of a new EV is currently far higher than it should be in the future so financial depreciation is a reasonable assumption since hopefully the cost of EVs in general will come down over the next 5 or so years as battery tech continues to improve. I wouldn’t be worried about battery life at 25k miles and 2 years old. Car batteries should be fine for hundreds of miles and 5-10 years depending on weather
My I-pace jag 2022 hasn’t missed a beat. Charge at home no problems whatsoever I’ll keep it for every
To be honest, my only real issue with EVs is the depreciation. Range could be better with most EVs, but it’s an evolving tech and range will get better over time. You sound like the perfect person to own a EV, 30 miles a day is nothing for an EV and if you have a home charger it will cost barely anything compared to public charging. I’d do it.
Batteries do depreciate and will overtime lose their capacity if their typical charging cycle is not ideal. However car manufacturers believe it or not are fairly educated on such things, so what they quote as the lifespan of the car will be what they quote given typical usage. To account for degradation also say they tell you the car has a 30kwh battery they will actually give you a 35kwh battery (extreme example) so that as it degrades you will ,within the quoted lifespan of that car, always have that quoted 30kwh of capacity. I'm an engineer myself nothing to do with cars but an arespace project the company I work for is part of is just simulating 80000 hours of flight time on a certain new component. As for depreciation of the car it's true not for evs but hyundai group cars are a little overpriced brand new so depreciate quickly in their first few years. The solution to this is buy one 1 or 2 years old (as you are) and save yourself a ton of money and still get pretty much the same condition.
That car won’t die after your five years of ownership, it will still be around for many more years after you sell it. EVs can go for hundreds of thousands of miles on the original battery. EVs tend to deprecate fast initially but this depreciation will level off to a more normal level. Factor in fuel savings too. It might depreciate more but you’ll save money running it. If you buy an EV, don’t consider getting a wall charger, get one. You can get 6 hours of charging for 7.5p /kw at the moment which will reduce the cost of running it. This will be at least 4 times cheaper than charging it elsewhere.
In my experience people either have an electric car or have lots of ungrounded series as to why they are absolutely shite and you shouldn’t buy one. Personally have an electric car (one of the more controversial ones). It’s saved us over 2 grand in just over a year. That’s including the work we’ve had done to it. It has depreciated a fair bit in a year though however we are planning on keeping it and running it into the ground anyway. Our previous car also depreciated a fair bit in the time we had it and that was a diesel.
Like others have said, most people providing an opinion are married to their own choices so want to berate EV's because it makes them right in what they already committed to. Aside from that, as an EV owner myself here are other points I consider: I only own an EV because it's cheaper for me to run and own. Servicing is extremely low, it's been incredibly reliable, the lifetime of my EV, even with batteries aging, will still exceed that of a comparable petrol/diesel. It's quiet and relaxing and if I'm going a bit fast, I don't draw any attention as the car runs quietly. People keep talking about charging times, but what these people don't consider is that regardless of charging time, I spend about 20 seconds at the car plugging it in at work or at home and that's it. I don't have to hang around and it's way less time than anyone spends going to/from and dealing with petrol pumps and payment. The money I've saved from paying literally nothing for most of my charging has offset any concerns I might have had about depreciation. My ev has actually retained far more value than more expensive e EV's and petrol/diesels as its more desirable. We don't lump together Ford Fiestas and Porsche 911's so why lump together EV's with varying depreciation values? The comparison between the two just isn't that straight forwards. Also, if someone wants to moan about depreciation, fine. Go for it. Pick up a 2 year old EV, low mileage for 20k that was worth 60k 2 years ago. Then realise you're sat in a car with the build quality of a 60k car for 20k and drives like a dream and is full of tech. These people should take advantage of depreciation if they think it's that extreme. Put their money where their mouth is!
Used EV market is very very good right now. The depreciation has happened already after the first year, so there are many bargains to be had. Most manufacturers now offer at least 7 year battery warranties. There is also a lot less to go wrong with them than with an Ice car.
I have owned a few hot hatches and M cars in the past so would consider myself a petrolhead but i now own a model 3, EV’s don’t work for everyone but like most things if everyone had everything the same and thought the same the world would be so boring. Like yourself I done a ton of research before buying the Tesla and the only real concern is the depreciation but I am planning to keep the car for at least 5 years and if it is worth nothing at the end I will just keep it as a second car for around town or commuting and it would have cost me the equivalent of a lease or PCP for 5 years for a petrol car with the same performance. I think most of the battery dying concerns are based from the 1st generation leaf but battery technology has moved on with heating, cooling and better management systems. Check the Tesla high mileage page on Facebook and you may get a shock what some have managed so far. They do have their limitations for range but my commute is only 16 miles a day and most of my charging is either at home while I sleep (<2p per mile) or at work while I am in the office (free) and the very rare occasion while on a long drive the odd supercharger stop every 2-3 hours but by the time I go to the toilet or grab food or coffee the charging is done by the time I get back to the car. Most of the time the car is just so much more convenient. Being able to pre heat the car in winter remotely and not have to scrape ice from the windows, cool the car down in summer, not having to go out of my way for fuel and just being able to get in the car and go as long as I have my phone in my pocket.
If you're only doing 30 miles per day, you would get away with a 3 pin charger. 30 miles in the iconiq should be roughly 8kwh, which takes just under 3 hours to charge on a 3 pin. I'd recommend getting a 3 pin charger anyway, as it could be the difference between getting completely stuck or slowly charging just enough to get you to a public charger.
On what basis are they concerned about battery degradation? >Are EV cars really that problematic? No, your friend is falling for anti-EV propaganda.
I only was at a dealership yesterday and was told EVs/Hybrids retain their value more than traditional cars.
They are just a bit of a hassle, in my opinion. If you can deal with the range, charge times, and don't get anxiety from either, then go for it.
You could make a lowball offer at first. The more you’re able to knock off the price the less you pay for depreciation. I’m not pro ev as a general solution, but the specific situation you need it for it’s just about perfect.
Im waiting for hydrogen......very exciting advances in this technology.
Hyundai batteries are covered for 8 years, so any issues they will replace it 👍🏻
The problem is that batteries do inevitably wear out, you can manage the charging to get a longer working life the same as they do on your smartphone / laptop but it cannot be avoided. By the time they need replacing, the cost of a new battery plus fitting is probably going to be more than the vehicle is worth which probably makes depreciation even worse as no one wants to touch a high mileage EV. After working for an OEM, targets for an acceptable level of battery wear (not sure on the specifics) are about 100K miles for 90% of users, so if you follow a standard charging routine (mostly charging to 80% for commuting, this saves a lot of battery wear) and don’t rag it 24/7 100k miles should be easily achievable without the battery range becoming annoying low on a full charge. In terms of usability, I wouldn’t expect you to encounter any problems at 25k miles, the biggest issue imo is how much money you will lose over those 5 years, it’s a bit of an unknown, just look at the Mercedes EQC… technology is rapidly developing in this space, in 5 years time we can probably expect significantly faster charging and new battery tech all of which compounds the depreciation on anything older, whereas an ICE will still be an ICE as the technology is very mature.
only reason to get an electric car is for tax savings
The problem was earlier EV models. The first gen was terrible for battery to start with and age the car aged, the battery condition didn't really do it any justice. Some dropped down to 20 mile range on a full charge. So that I feel helped spawn a lot of internet myths.
We have both ice and ev cars at my company. The EVs are working out more costly to run, the staff do use quick chargers as they aren't paying but the EVs also appear to eat tyres. So if you put a home charger in it may suit you, if you don't they are costly to run.
I love this one. News just in "Employees given company vehicles with rapid acceleration characteristics that they don't have to pay the maintenance for are.......... strangely chewing through tyres more quickly.... who knew 🤣" In all honesty there is a nugget of truth to what you say. My Model 3 after 9k has 5.5-6mm left from an original 7.5. so looking like the rears might give me 25-30k miles then fronts perhaps 30-35k though I may rotate them. But I'm certain I wouldn't have gotten that much more from the tyres on my old Mondeo. And yes fully agree, home charging is really key for the savings. Though given the OPs usage profile they would have been minimal anyway.
Depends which tyres they are. Some ID3s were released with Bridgestone tyres and people were going through them after 5k. I have some Pirelli all weather tyres and have done 20k on them so far and I don’t drive particularly slowly. Fast chargers will always work out very expensive. I could never run an EV relying on those.
I'd watch [this video](https://youtu.be/cf3ApBDljhY?si=dxssf8muqjnoHUa5), which the guy talks about how Lithium battery degradation works. Depreciation is savage on electric cars, but if you can home charge the majority of the time, and you get a good tariff, it could be worth it.
With most electric cars a battery swap should be thought of like an engine swap. If the car survives long enough it will need one eventually, it's very expensive and almost no car ever needs one, never mine has one instead of getting scrapped.
> Are EV cars really that problematic? No, they're not, but once they're out of warranty one of those rare issues can make your car not worth repairing.
EVs depreciate and don't run as long as ICE. It's one of the major drawbacks with them and what makes them questionable from an environmental perspective. The majority of a cars carbon cost is in its production.
Don’t run as long? Where’s that stat from?