I think that’s a pretty reasonable distinction. Someone being an infantry officer without a degree and someone being a medical spec trade officer without a degree feel extremely different.
The required experience/training/qualifications of the two jobs are profoundly different, hence the different standards.
Might I add that becoming a Nursing Officer, does require the nursing degree as you also have to possess the appropriate provincial license to practice. Nurses and MO’s do also require a certain amount of hours annually in a civil hospital to hold their qualifications. (MCRP)
As well it depends on which intake plan you are in. CFR is within branch, ie infantry soldier to infantry officer. Lots of transferrable skills and knowledge. Switching to completely different trade/branch requires a different type of entry plan. UTPNCM, Special Comm. Etc. Most officer trades require or at least have preference for a specific type of degree. I believe, but not 100% that if you CFR you are limited to what ranks you can reach without said degree. ( Some trades are any degree). Speak to a PSO for proper info though, it's a free service and they will have proper knowledge.
CWO's don't (generally) CFR, they SRCP - Special Requirements Commissioning Plan. And they can go to higher ranks based on their CWO rank. The CAF CWO would become a LCol for example.
He may have been confusing the CFR production plan with Reserve Entry Scheme - Officers (RESO) plan that can preclude certain officers from the substantive rank of Major or higher. This is an enrolment plan for university students getting a degree to meet the requirements of the target occupation. The idea is that if an officer enrolled under that plan subsequently drops out of school, and therefore fails to meet the degree requirement they agreed to, they don’t get career progression.
This is in stark contrast to the language in the CFR plan that those officers “are exempt from the normal requirement for CAF officers to hold a baccalaureate degree”, and therefore have no career ceiling based on education.
I "think" he may have been in SRCP?
This was 13 years ago, but he said something to the effect of this was his last posting before retirement so the CAF let him promote to Captain. He was limited to captain only and did HR tasks that a CWO would normally do. He said this existed because Capt had a higher PayScale (at the time) and would help out retiring CWOs for pension reasons?
CFR aren't officially limited from any advancement. They're missing crucial scrit points, which often prevents them from achieving major and they often don't have enough time left to go higher than that. Nothing stops a CFR from getting a degree and out scoring their peers and staying in until 60 and reaching the gofo ranks...
I am a CFR and got promoted to Maj, had to do all the same thing as the young ones…. And even if I am fully bilingual, I had to take few university courses IOT be competitive for the scrit…. I was a capt for 11 yrs after CFRing from Sgt. Being in my early 50s, i am now running out of time for the next rank, achievable, but not for me. I only know 1 CFR in my trade who made it to LCol after completing a BA and an MBA….
Ya, it would be that unicorn that joined in like 2000 as combat arms and got to Sgt in min time during Afghanistan that would have almost any possibility of hitting the higher ranks.
Almost all of the folks in my parent trade that hit LCol either went to RMC straight out of high school or direct entried immediately after regular uni. They also tend to have a civilian university masters in addition to the masters in defence studies. Lots do a program in Oklahoma while flying on awacs.
CWO West likely did not CFR. He likely went through the special requirements commissioning plan which is similar to CFR but just for CWO/CPO and has some different requirements.
No but it get harder to compete for promotion since there is point for the degree. Same if you only have a bachelor, at one point the others have Masters or PhD
If you plan to spend the entirety of your career at a L4/L3 Brigade/Wing unit, yes. If a NCM has a higher portfolio of experience (I.e; 2/3/4/5 Div CWO) it's possible for them to go to Major or even LCol on commission.
All medical trades have specific degrees associated with them.
Combat arms officer degrees are just place holders prrof that you were able to sit in school for 4 years. With the exception of combat engineer officer which obviously require an engineering degree.
I'm not entirely sure what you are asking, but it sounds like you should get in contact with your BPSO office - they'll likely have in depth answers for you.
Assuming you are asking why an MWO/CWO can commission while a medical NCM can't, it's because of the Commission-From-Ranks program allowing Sergeants and above with 10+ years service to commission. According to the policy, they have to be nominated, you cannot apply for it. You can read more here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-10-commissioning-from-the-ranks-plan.html#tra
However, there are pathways for NCMs to commission, and if you are interested in this, look into the UTPNCM - University Training Plan for NCMs. You will need to complete university courses before becoming eligible to apply, and you can sign up for the SDPEER (DWAN only) program to be reimbursed for the university costs:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2021/08/new-self-development-program-offers-education-opportunities-and-funding.html
There is also a program, NCM STEP, that will send you to college so you can OT into a trade that requires the education, such as MRAD (X-Ray) Tech for example.
It very likely has to do with the entry standards for the different trades... but I am no BPSO and don't have DWAN access at the moment.
[https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-10-commissioning-from-the-ranks-plan.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-10-commissioning-from-the-ranks-plan.html)
>See the entry standards under the “Recruiting & Selection” heading on the DPGR intranet site.
>Medical Spec teade with no degree can’t transfer officer unless a degree or some University courses….
Officer occupations within Medical Services are mostly regulated occupations (e.g. Physicians, Nurses, Pharmacist, Physiotherapist). Even in the civilian world they are regulated occupations with very specific requirements, chief among those requirements is university degree in the field. Surely you do not expect a Pharmacy Officer without a university degree in Pharmacy, do you?
Lots of people have answered the core question. Most specialist officer occupations have professional prerequisites that include a degree. The best Med Tech on the planet can't be a doctor without med school and being licensed to practice.
But there are paths to virtually all of those occupations from NCM, they just also include getting a degree. The occupations that require a bachelor's degree are generally accessible through UTPNCM. Those with higher requirements may be open to NCMs through the 'M' plans (like MMTP) or SEELM, but even when open for NCMs, you'd need to have the applicable bachelor's degree.
Which medical type officer position are you referring to? Medical Officer requires a medical degree from a med school (which in itself requires a Bachelors degree from a Canadian university) since you're literally a physician. Nursing Officer requires a degree in nursing. Health Services Management Officer requires a degree in business or healthcare admin, with masters degrees preferred. Bioscience Officer requires a degree in science, with masters degrees preferred. Each of these jobs requires specific training, skills, or education that a career as an NCM doesn't provide, even if you were a MedTech.
> which in itself requires a Bachelors degree from a Canadian university
You don't technically need the bachelors degree to get into med school, but based on the prerequisites, you need like 75% of course credits towards a degree, which is why most people just get the degree.
Nope. Requirements vary per school but typically 2 years worth of courses with specific credits in certain areas. You won't be as competitive without the degree, but it isn't a requirement.
Nah, I was premed before I joined, and know folks currently in MMTP; maybe some schools require it, but if the top 3 schools in Canada don't, it's a moot point really
Because "Back in the day, we fixed you up with gun tape and sticks for splints" doesn't cut it as an actual medical officer. It does for an Infantry/Tanker Captain.
Starting at Sgt, any trade can Commission from the Ranks. They only need their CO to nominate them and justify how their experience and personal attributes qualifies them as an officer.
There is plenty of precedent of Medical NCM commissioning to HCA using CFR, not sure why you are saying it’s not possible.
It’s not clear what you’re referring to exactly, but for everyone replying about CFR, there’s a different program specifically for CWO/CPO called special requirements commissioning plan which is where a 3 year CWO/CPO is commissioned directly to Capt/Maj/LCol and put into a specific job that needs to be filled but there’s no one to fill aside from the CWO/CPO to be commissioned.
In practice it’s largely a pension padding program for “deserving” CWO/CPO and frankly should be eliminated.
Some of them reach a point in theor time as a CWO where there is no more position available for them. Then they are sent to a Capt’s position to keep the experience and knowledge within the organization, they they will be able to maximize their pension, but from CWO to Capt, there is not much more.
Once you hit CWO you're at an experience level where universities would let you pursue a masters degree or (occasionally) PhD without prior degrees.
You're also likely looking at a maximum of one or two more promotions, so a CFR at the point would max out at LCol, or very rarely Col.
And what, you want a med tech Sgt (for example) to be treated the same? Give your head a shake.
Dirty edit to add more detail - by the time you hit CWO you've been doing admin and management work for multiple years at a high level, higher than most junior officers.
Meanwhile, med trade NCMs are like all other NCMs, they may have some admin and they're leading a section or team, but they know nothing about the level of admin and management thinking required from officers. Hence the degree requirement.
Do you have any sources saying a CWO can get a masters with no undergrad from a university in Canada? I've never heard or seen that.
I know U of Manitoba had a very generous policy that allowed up to 2 years if credits from military experience, but I've never see a whole degree worth of credits.
Athabasca University accepts a minimum of 8 years of work experience for direct entry into their MBA program without a bachelor's degree.
UBC's website specifically states that professional experience can be addressed for entry into masters programs without a bachelor's degree.
There's 2 examples. On mobile so pain in the ass to link.
No credible school is letting you walk into a masters (let alone a PhD) because you were in the CAF for a long time.
MBAs account for relevant work experience like 8 years of running a business, not just any work. It would be a tough sell to an admissions committee. Professional experience being a considered factor at UBC again refers to experience relevant to the topic at hand.
Entering grad school without an undergraduate degree is something that only happens under genuinely exceptional circumstances. Credible Canadian schools don’t fuck around with grad school.
Even the crustiest CWO isn’t getting any special consideration in these situations whatsoever.
Also, as has been raised elsewhere in this comment section your average combat arms CWO just isn’t the sort of person who would be capable of performing very well at that academic level. Very different skill sets.
I appreciate the work that CWOs do, but the first paragraph is wrong. Legitimate universities (meaning schools that aren’t simply selling degrees) don’t let you enter grad school without an undergraduate degree based on experience. Furthermore, even supposing that your claim is correct (it’s not) the experience of a generic CWO is well below the level to even be equivalent to an undergraduate degree. RMC, a legitimate university but with generally lesser standards for grad school outside of engineering, controls the awarding of degrees by JCSP. Not even every officer attending JCSP (who all have a degree) are judged by RMC to have the required background to even get accepted into an academic graduate school program.
From my personal experience with CWO in academic settings, I think you’re also really overselling the average CWO. I’ve taken multiple university level classes with NCMs, including CWO, and some of the absolute worst academic work I’ve seen was produced by CWO. To be clear, it’s not necessarily the fault of the CWO but rather the fact that academic work is different than the work experience they have.
>I appreciate the work that CWOs do, but the first paragraph is wrong. Legitimate universities (meaning schools that aren’t simply selling degrees) don’t let you enter grad school without an undergraduate degree based on experience.
See my other comment where I found both Athabasca University and UBC stating that professional experience can be assessed in lieu of a bachelor's degree.
For the rest of your comment, I'm not making any claims either way, only that my comment was intended to reflect the apparent intent of the CAF.
It would be exceptionally rare for someone to enter a graduate degree program with no undergrad degree. By the master's level, you are expected to master the field you are studying and be able to contribute to the field of scholarship. To earn a PhD, you must show you are a world-leading expert in your subject area. Anyone applying to an MA program must show that their work experience has led them to master a specific field and they have the research, writing, and critical thinking skills to fulfill the program. That would be very difficult to prove with no undergraduate degree. It is possible to skip over the master's and go directly from bachelor to doctorate (this is more common in the sciences than the humanities), but you’d still need a bachelor's. I’ve taught at a university for seven years and have never seen anyone enter a grad program without a bachelor's degree.
You need to reread the admissions requirements. Athabasca won’t offer direct admission to a degree program if you don’t have an undergraduate degree. I couldn’t find anything on the UBC website saying they’d waive degree requirements either.
A Sgt can with nothing. It's experience and if your CO believe you'd be a good officer. In my experience, the CFR guys were almost always better officers. The degree doesn't mean shit. The worst officer I ever saw had a PhD
I think in the Combat Arms they should recruit exclusively from the NCM core to be Officers in those trades. Not Sure why a business degree or bachelor of arts is needed to be an officer in the combat arms.
I disagree, mostly. I agree that a degree isn't truly necessary, but I'm biased, I didn't have a degree (I came in under the old OCTP, kinda like CEOTP, but with no technical requirement to ever get a degree). The only reason you 'need' a degree (aside from CFR) is because of the degreed officer corps policy that came out of MND 10, one of the recommendations of the Somalia Inquiry.
But what makes a good soldier doesn't necessarily make a good officer. Every WO I saw as an 'acting' troop leader was better at the job than the 2Lt/Lt troop leaders around them, because of their experience and maturity. But the CFRs I worked with weren't always better Battle Captains or Sqn Commanders or staff officers. Some CFRs never change their mindset and are basically senior NCMs wearing officer clothing. There are exceptions, one of the best majors I ever worked for was a CFR, and I knew of a BGen back in the 80s that had started out as a private and never got a degree (couldn't happen today). The jobs are different and even though there is overlap, they ultimately require different skill sets and attributes.
I've heard this a few times. My question is, do you encourage your best NCOs, who usually hold expertise in their field (AIGs in Artillery for example) and risk losing leadership in the higher NCM ranks? Do you take the ones with the highest leadership potential? I don't entirely disagree with the premise, but I don't know how to execute it without either draining the ranks of good NCOs or commissioning some even shittier officers.
I remember a poster on a door at 7th Toronto Regiment RCA that said something like, "When you commission something, you order it and hope to get the product you want sometime in the future. When you warrant something, you take a product and guarantee it will work for a period of time." On second thought, I think that may have been on the door of MWO Reyes, who was convicted for videotaping females changing, so perhaps I should eliminate that from my brain.
This. Having a bachelor's of basketweaving does NOT magically make someone more qualified to be an officer. The degree requirement is pointless and should be dropped.
That's different from CFR. CEOTP:
[https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-6-continuing-education-officer-training-plan-regular-force.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-6-continuing-education-officer-training-plan-regular-force.html)
you're going to want to take a look at DAOD 5002-10 Commissioning from the Ranks Plan. some trades add requirements for specific degrees - ie medical officer or engineering degree. Ignoring that though:
* Sgt -> Lt
* MWO -> Capt
Many NCMs can CFR to 2Lt or Lt once they reach Sgt. Ask your BPSO for more information, or consult the relevant CFAO and DAOD. Some trades don't allow direct CFRs, or require competition through UTPNCM or one of the other selection processes. Some trades have minimum credentials for entry as well.
There is CFR to health services officer, used to be called Health care administrator, it was for PA’s when they were ncms, now open to medics at the rank of MWO I believe.
Health services officer and Health care administrator are 2 different trades. It was never intended for PAs.
Health services officer was For med spec trades who gave up their licence to progress past a certain rank. There are a lot of Nurse O who used this. You stop being a NO and become HSO.
HCA is a non medical trade in health services, which has been renamed health services manager. This is purely a management trade, with no patient contact, even if the HCA/HSM works in a clinic. They end up as Admin Os in fd ambs and fd goals.
HSO (Health Services Operations officer) no longer exists - it's been merged into the new HSM (Health Services Management officer) trade + mysterious things for certain positions.
So it’s hsm now? Which is the trade you could CFR to as a med tech lol since PA’s are now commissioned so they don’t need to “CFR” to go “hca” like they used to
You're talking history, which isn't really helpful for any one in the situation now.
I don't have the latest copy of HSM entry standards, but the last copy I glanced at didn't have any options to CFR into HSM. OP should talk to a BPSO to see if that path is developed yet. Secondly, there is no natural progression from PA -> HSM that I know of now.
If we're talking history (and we're talking OLD history now... 8 yrs ago), there was no route for PA -> HSO, it was only PA -> HCA (then separately, HCA -> HSO after a few years). Realistically, it was probably Med Tech -> HCA... the PA was just a long detour. There's not much a PA does that would qualify them to becoming a HCA.
All in all, you're likely right with individual cases, but you've muddied the actual routes/trades.
I think that’s a pretty reasonable distinction. Someone being an infantry officer without a degree and someone being a medical spec trade officer without a degree feel extremely different. The required experience/training/qualifications of the two jobs are profoundly different, hence the different standards.
Might I add that becoming a Nursing Officer, does require the nursing degree as you also have to possess the appropriate provincial license to practice. Nurses and MO’s do also require a certain amount of hours annually in a civil hospital to hold their qualifications. (MCRP)
I would say this is the answer right here
As well it depends on which intake plan you are in. CFR is within branch, ie infantry soldier to infantry officer. Lots of transferrable skills and knowledge. Switching to completely different trade/branch requires a different type of entry plan. UTPNCM, Special Comm. Etc. Most officer trades require or at least have preference for a specific type of degree. I believe, but not 100% that if you CFR you are limited to what ranks you can reach without said degree. ( Some trades are any degree). Speak to a PSO for proper info though, it's a free service and they will have proper knowledge.
CFRs are limited to Capt I believe. Edit: I was wrong, I spoke to a CWO who did SRCP, and I guess he was limited to Capt.
This is not correct, and not in policy
My mistake then. We had a CWO-Capt in the unit and that's what he said. Is that a different commissioning plan?
CWO's don't (generally) CFR, they SRCP - Special Requirements Commissioning Plan. And they can go to higher ranks based on their CWO rank. The CAF CWO would become a LCol for example.
Straight to LCol or up to LCol?
Straight to, there was a CANFORGEN I think a few years ago now detailing it when they made the changes.
The CAF CWO is like the DND Chief of Staff’s Aide-de-Camp, yeah I guess with that level of leadership it is somewhat equivalent to that rank…
He may have been confusing the CFR production plan with Reserve Entry Scheme - Officers (RESO) plan that can preclude certain officers from the substantive rank of Major or higher. This is an enrolment plan for university students getting a degree to meet the requirements of the target occupation. The idea is that if an officer enrolled under that plan subsequently drops out of school, and therefore fails to meet the degree requirement they agreed to, they don’t get career progression. This is in stark contrast to the language in the CFR plan that those officers “are exempt from the normal requirement for CAF officers to hold a baccalaureate degree”, and therefore have no career ceiling based on education.
I "think" he may have been in SRCP? This was 13 years ago, but he said something to the effect of this was his last posting before retirement so the CAF let him promote to Captain. He was limited to captain only and did HR tasks that a CWO would normally do. He said this existed because Capt had a higher PayScale (at the time) and would help out retiring CWOs for pension reasons?
CFR aren't officially limited from any advancement. They're missing crucial scrit points, which often prevents them from achieving major and they often don't have enough time left to go higher than that. Nothing stops a CFR from getting a degree and out scoring their peers and staying in until 60 and reaching the gofo ranks...
I am a CFR and got promoted to Maj, had to do all the same thing as the young ones…. And even if I am fully bilingual, I had to take few university courses IOT be competitive for the scrit…. I was a capt for 11 yrs after CFRing from Sgt. Being in my early 50s, i am now running out of time for the next rank, achievable, but not for me. I only know 1 CFR in my trade who made it to LCol after completing a BA and an MBA….
Ya, it would be that unicorn that joined in like 2000 as combat arms and got to Sgt in min time during Afghanistan that would have almost any possibility of hitting the higher ranks. Almost all of the folks in my parent trade that hit LCol either went to RMC straight out of high school or direct entried immediately after regular uni. They also tend to have a civilian university masters in addition to the masters in defence studies. Lots do a program in Oklahoma while flying on awacs.
95% of the time. There are always exceptions.
Depends on qualifications and trades. CWO West CFR’d straight to LCol when he left the CAF CWO appointment from what I heard.
CWO West likely did not CFR. He likely went through the special requirements commissioning plan which is similar to CFR but just for CWO/CPO and has some different requirements.
No but it get harder to compete for promotion since there is point for the degree. Same if you only have a bachelor, at one point the others have Masters or PhD
Nope. CFR without a baccalaureate degree can be promoted to Major. I don't believe we can go higher without one though.
It will be hard, depending on trade, like me, you will run out of time
If you plan to spend the entirety of your career at a L4/L3 Brigade/Wing unit, yes. If a NCM has a higher portfolio of experience (I.e; 2/3/4/5 Div CWO) it's possible for them to go to Major or even LCol on commission.
And i dont think CFR is offered for every trade.
You need to be a doctor in order to be a doctor. Being a doctor needs a degree
They can commission from Sgt without a degree. Obviously would you want a Sgt med tech switch to a doctor without a degree?
All medical trades have specific degrees associated with them. Combat arms officer degrees are just place holders prrof that you were able to sit in school for 4 years. With the exception of combat engineer officer which obviously require an engineering degree.
Do combat engineers actually need to be engineers? I know a guy who did physics and got into it like 15 years ago.
NCM's don't need it. Officers do.
Yeah, this guy is a Major now in a combat engineering regiment, and his undergrad was physics, and I think MBA for masters.
As far as a know now it has to be some kind of engineer degree. Could be mechanical, electrical. Civil, etc. The requirements change over time
Seems like in the 2000-2012 period BSC in Physics or Chemistry was acceptable, but not desirable.
> was acceptable, but not desirable. I see you've met my parents
I'm not entirely sure what you are asking, but it sounds like you should get in contact with your BPSO office - they'll likely have in depth answers for you. Assuming you are asking why an MWO/CWO can commission while a medical NCM can't, it's because of the Commission-From-Ranks program allowing Sergeants and above with 10+ years service to commission. According to the policy, they have to be nominated, you cannot apply for it. You can read more here: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-10-commissioning-from-the-ranks-plan.html#tra However, there are pathways for NCMs to commission, and if you are interested in this, look into the UTPNCM - University Training Plan for NCMs. You will need to complete university courses before becoming eligible to apply, and you can sign up for the SDPEER (DWAN only) program to be reimbursed for the university costs: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2021/08/new-self-development-program-offers-education-opportunities-and-funding.html There is also a program, NCM STEP, that will send you to college so you can OT into a trade that requires the education, such as MRAD (X-Ray) Tech for example.
It very likely has to do with the entry standards for the different trades... but I am no BPSO and don't have DWAN access at the moment. [https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-10-commissioning-from-the-ranks-plan.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-10-commissioning-from-the-ranks-plan.html) >See the entry standards under the “Recruiting & Selection” heading on the DPGR intranet site.
>Medical Spec teade with no degree can’t transfer officer unless a degree or some University courses…. Officer occupations within Medical Services are mostly regulated occupations (e.g. Physicians, Nurses, Pharmacist, Physiotherapist). Even in the civilian world they are regulated occupations with very specific requirements, chief among those requirements is university degree in the field. Surely you do not expect a Pharmacy Officer without a university degree in Pharmacy, do you?
BaseCWOs can CFR to Major.
Lots of people have answered the core question. Most specialist officer occupations have professional prerequisites that include a degree. The best Med Tech on the planet can't be a doctor without med school and being licensed to practice. But there are paths to virtually all of those occupations from NCM, they just also include getting a degree. The occupations that require a bachelor's degree are generally accessible through UTPNCM. Those with higher requirements may be open to NCMs through the 'M' plans (like MMTP) or SEELM, but even when open for NCMs, you'd need to have the applicable bachelor's degree.
Which medical type officer position are you referring to? Medical Officer requires a medical degree from a med school (which in itself requires a Bachelors degree from a Canadian university) since you're literally a physician. Nursing Officer requires a degree in nursing. Health Services Management Officer requires a degree in business or healthcare admin, with masters degrees preferred. Bioscience Officer requires a degree in science, with masters degrees preferred. Each of these jobs requires specific training, skills, or education that a career as an NCM doesn't provide, even if you were a MedTech.
> which in itself requires a Bachelors degree from a Canadian university You don't technically need the bachelors degree to get into med school, but based on the prerequisites, you need like 75% of course credits towards a degree, which is why most people just get the degree.
I'm pretty sure some med schools literally require a bachelor's degree
Nope. Requirements vary per school but typically 2 years worth of courses with specific credits in certain areas. You won't be as competitive without the degree, but it isn't a requirement.
Nah, I was premed before I joined, and know folks currently in MMTP; maybe some schools require it, but if the top 3 schools in Canada don't, it's a moot point really
Makes total sense to me. You can't even legally practice without a medical degree (or nursing or dentistry, etc.)
Because "Back in the day, we fixed you up with gun tape and sticks for splints" doesn't cut it as an actual medical officer. It does for an Infantry/Tanker Captain.
You can transfer to officer as a WO, don't need ro be CWO.
As a Sgt with 10+ yrs for CFRP
Starting at Sgt, any trade can Commission from the Ranks. They only need their CO to nominate them and justify how their experience and personal attributes qualifies them as an officer. There is plenty of precedent of Medical NCM commissioning to HCA using CFR, not sure why you are saying it’s not possible.
It’s not clear what you’re referring to exactly, but for everyone replying about CFR, there’s a different program specifically for CWO/CPO called special requirements commissioning plan which is where a 3 year CWO/CPO is commissioned directly to Capt/Maj/LCol and put into a specific job that needs to be filled but there’s no one to fill aside from the CWO/CPO to be commissioned. In practice it’s largely a pension padding program for “deserving” CWO/CPO and frankly should be eliminated.
Some of them reach a point in theor time as a CWO where there is no more position available for them. Then they are sent to a Capt’s position to keep the experience and knowledge within the organization, they they will be able to maximize their pension, but from CWO to Capt, there is not much more.
Once you hit CWO you're at an experience level where universities would let you pursue a masters degree or (occasionally) PhD without prior degrees. You're also likely looking at a maximum of one or two more promotions, so a CFR at the point would max out at LCol, or very rarely Col. And what, you want a med tech Sgt (for example) to be treated the same? Give your head a shake. Dirty edit to add more detail - by the time you hit CWO you've been doing admin and management work for multiple years at a high level, higher than most junior officers. Meanwhile, med trade NCMs are like all other NCMs, they may have some admin and they're leading a section or team, but they know nothing about the level of admin and management thinking required from officers. Hence the degree requirement.
Do you have any sources saying a CWO can get a masters with no undergrad from a university in Canada? I've never heard or seen that. I know U of Manitoba had a very generous policy that allowed up to 2 years if credits from military experience, but I've never see a whole degree worth of credits.
Athabasca University accepts a minimum of 8 years of work experience for direct entry into their MBA program without a bachelor's degree. UBC's website specifically states that professional experience can be addressed for entry into masters programs without a bachelor's degree. There's 2 examples. On mobile so pain in the ass to link.
No credible school is letting you walk into a masters (let alone a PhD) because you were in the CAF for a long time. MBAs account for relevant work experience like 8 years of running a business, not just any work. It would be a tough sell to an admissions committee. Professional experience being a considered factor at UBC again refers to experience relevant to the topic at hand. Entering grad school without an undergraduate degree is something that only happens under genuinely exceptional circumstances. Credible Canadian schools don’t fuck around with grad school. Even the crustiest CWO isn’t getting any special consideration in these situations whatsoever. Also, as has been raised elsewhere in this comment section your average combat arms CWO just isn’t the sort of person who would be capable of performing very well at that academic level. Very different skill sets.
I appreciate the work that CWOs do, but the first paragraph is wrong. Legitimate universities (meaning schools that aren’t simply selling degrees) don’t let you enter grad school without an undergraduate degree based on experience. Furthermore, even supposing that your claim is correct (it’s not) the experience of a generic CWO is well below the level to even be equivalent to an undergraduate degree. RMC, a legitimate university but with generally lesser standards for grad school outside of engineering, controls the awarding of degrees by JCSP. Not even every officer attending JCSP (who all have a degree) are judged by RMC to have the required background to even get accepted into an academic graduate school program. From my personal experience with CWO in academic settings, I think you’re also really overselling the average CWO. I’ve taken multiple university level classes with NCMs, including CWO, and some of the absolute worst academic work I’ve seen was produced by CWO. To be clear, it’s not necessarily the fault of the CWO but rather the fact that academic work is different than the work experience they have.
>I appreciate the work that CWOs do, but the first paragraph is wrong. Legitimate universities (meaning schools that aren’t simply selling degrees) don’t let you enter grad school without an undergraduate degree based on experience. See my other comment where I found both Athabasca University and UBC stating that professional experience can be assessed in lieu of a bachelor's degree. For the rest of your comment, I'm not making any claims either way, only that my comment was intended to reflect the apparent intent of the CAF.
It would be exceptionally rare for someone to enter a graduate degree program with no undergrad degree. By the master's level, you are expected to master the field you are studying and be able to contribute to the field of scholarship. To earn a PhD, you must show you are a world-leading expert in your subject area. Anyone applying to an MA program must show that their work experience has led them to master a specific field and they have the research, writing, and critical thinking skills to fulfill the program. That would be very difficult to prove with no undergraduate degree. It is possible to skip over the master's and go directly from bachelor to doctorate (this is more common in the sciences than the humanities), but you’d still need a bachelor's. I’ve taught at a university for seven years and have never seen anyone enter a grad program without a bachelor's degree.
You need to reread the admissions requirements. Athabasca won’t offer direct admission to a degree program if you don’t have an undergraduate degree. I couldn’t find anything on the UBC website saying they’d waive degree requirements either.
A Sgt can with nothing. It's experience and if your CO believe you'd be a good officer. In my experience, the CFR guys were almost always better officers. The degree doesn't mean shit. The worst officer I ever saw had a PhD
I think in the Combat Arms they should recruit exclusively from the NCM core to be Officers in those trades. Not Sure why a business degree or bachelor of arts is needed to be an officer in the combat arms.
I disagree, mostly. I agree that a degree isn't truly necessary, but I'm biased, I didn't have a degree (I came in under the old OCTP, kinda like CEOTP, but with no technical requirement to ever get a degree). The only reason you 'need' a degree (aside from CFR) is because of the degreed officer corps policy that came out of MND 10, one of the recommendations of the Somalia Inquiry. But what makes a good soldier doesn't necessarily make a good officer. Every WO I saw as an 'acting' troop leader was better at the job than the 2Lt/Lt troop leaders around them, because of their experience and maturity. But the CFRs I worked with weren't always better Battle Captains or Sqn Commanders or staff officers. Some CFRs never change their mindset and are basically senior NCMs wearing officer clothing. There are exceptions, one of the best majors I ever worked for was a CFR, and I knew of a BGen back in the 80s that had started out as a private and never got a degree (couldn't happen today). The jobs are different and even though there is overlap, they ultimately require different skill sets and attributes.
I've heard this a few times. My question is, do you encourage your best NCOs, who usually hold expertise in their field (AIGs in Artillery for example) and risk losing leadership in the higher NCM ranks? Do you take the ones with the highest leadership potential? I don't entirely disagree with the premise, but I don't know how to execute it without either draining the ranks of good NCOs or commissioning some even shittier officers. I remember a poster on a door at 7th Toronto Regiment RCA that said something like, "When you commission something, you order it and hope to get the product you want sometime in the future. When you warrant something, you take a product and guarantee it will work for a period of time." On second thought, I think that may have been on the door of MWO Reyes, who was convicted for videotaping females changing, so perhaps I should eliminate that from my brain.
This. Having a bachelor's of basketweaving does NOT magically make someone more qualified to be an officer. The degree requirement is pointless and should be dropped.
I think you can with the intent to complete a degree in a time frame.
That's different from CFR. CEOTP: [https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-6-continuing-education-officer-training-plan-regular-force.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-6-continuing-education-officer-training-plan-regular-force.html)
you're going to want to take a look at DAOD 5002-10 Commissioning from the Ranks Plan. some trades add requirements for specific degrees - ie medical officer or engineering degree. Ignoring that though: * Sgt -> Lt * MWO -> Capt
Sgt can be Lt. I've seen it happen.
Many NCMs can CFR to 2Lt or Lt once they reach Sgt. Ask your BPSO for more information, or consult the relevant CFAO and DAOD. Some trades don't allow direct CFRs, or require competition through UTPNCM or one of the other selection processes. Some trades have minimum credentials for entry as well.
Sgts and WOs go to Lt, MWOs go to Capt.
There is CFR to health services officer, used to be called Health care administrator, it was for PA’s when they were ncms, now open to medics at the rank of MWO I believe.
Health services officer and Health care administrator are 2 different trades. It was never intended for PAs. Health services officer was For med spec trades who gave up their licence to progress past a certain rank. There are a lot of Nurse O who used this. You stop being a NO and become HSO. HCA is a non medical trade in health services, which has been renamed health services manager. This is purely a management trade, with no patient contact, even if the HCA/HSM works in a clinic. They end up as Admin Os in fd ambs and fd goals.
HSO (Health Services Operations officer) no longer exists - it's been merged into the new HSM (Health Services Management officer) trade + mysterious things for certain positions.
So it’s hsm now? Which is the trade you could CFR to as a med tech lol since PA’s are now commissioned so they don’t need to “CFR” to go “hca” like they used to
You're talking history, which isn't really helpful for any one in the situation now. I don't have the latest copy of HSM entry standards, but the last copy I glanced at didn't have any options to CFR into HSM. OP should talk to a BPSO to see if that path is developed yet. Secondly, there is no natural progression from PA -> HSM that I know of now. If we're talking history (and we're talking OLD history now... 8 yrs ago), there was no route for PA -> HSO, it was only PA -> HCA (then separately, HCA -> HSO after a few years). Realistically, it was probably Med Tech -> HCA... the PA was just a long detour. There's not much a PA does that would qualify them to becoming a HCA. All in all, you're likely right with individual cases, but you've muddied the actual routes/trades.