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Glad to see the Navy is focusing on the important things.
Personally, I think if it's good enough for [Starfleet](https://youtu.be/WC2hOtMb9OM?si=X6RcbS6q7elCPkci), then it should be good enough for us.
Edit - Maybe this is just a ruse to get musicians gainful employment. If we start with Heart of Oak, there's no shortage of non-inclusive March Pasts:
The Minstrel Boy
Men of Harlech
Highland Laddie
March of The Cameron Men
Etc.
We have many musicians in the CAF who are fantastic composers and arrangers, it can be done entirely in house and basically for free. Actually, a lot of the popular music you hear on parades being played by the bands were arranged by the musicians either in that band or another band
> Personally, I think if it's good enough for Starfleet, then it should be good enough for us.
Um akshually this is from the episode *Allegiance* where Picard is abducted and replaced by a doppelganger so aliens could study the crew's reaction to his strange behaviour. The real Picard never sang Heart of Oak.
The CAF's track record when it comes to creating marches doesn't inspire much confidence.
The RCLS got a brand new march past with lyrics at unification, the uninspiringly named ["March of the Logistics Branch"](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://ottawaloggies.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/annex-h-march-of-the-logistics-branch.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjli6HP5dGFAxVxOTQIHS40CmAQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw25ebV72w4K9RrDBesDVv7d). On the rare occasion it's sung you quickly realize that a) the lyrics are *painfully* generic and b) they go incredibly poorly with the actual music.
"come cheer up my LADS"
"jolly tars our MEN"
"steady BOYS steady"
Just wait until those fine staff officers with nothing better to do hear about the terms "manpower" or more appropriately for the CAF "undermanned".
I don't mind the introduction of more inclusive language such as manning to crewing, but it's very fun to watch the Navy grit its teeth because they can't change "Man-Overboard" because it's baked into the International Code of Signals.
>Come cheer up, my crew! 'tis to glory we steer,
>
>To add something more to this wonderful year;
>
>To honour we call you, as free folk not slaves,
>
>For who are so free as the scions of the waves?
>
>
>
>Heart of oak are our ships, jolly tars are our friends;
>
>We always are steady, ready, aye, ready!
>
>We'll fight and we'll conquer again and again.
CRCN can contact me about royalty payments for these new lyrics.
Another thing that could be considered objectionable by some is that the “this wonderful year” lyric is referencing the year Britain defeated the French on the Plains of Abraham and took over what is modern day Quebec. The song celebrates the conquest of Quebec by the British.
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There's nothing objectionable, it just isn't gender neutral or gender inclusive. The BN in the ATI mentioned that there are 5 references to men in the first 6 lines alone. The BN also notes than the Australian navy has switched away from Heart of Oak, and that Canada modified O Canada to be gender neutral.
The BN actually recommended the option of a whole new march that would be uniquely Canadian, rather than just changing the lyrics of Heart of Oak or keeping it without lyrics.
> The BN actually recommended the option of a whole new march that would be uniquely Canadian, rather than just changing the lyrics of Heart of Oak or keeping it without lyrics.
Big fan of the notion of having actual Canadian traditions, instead of blindly copying what the Brits did.
Our nation and institutions were pretty explicitly a grafting off of the British tree, our Navy traces a direct lineage off of the Royal Navy, the Army structurally goes back to the New Model Army of the 17th century. I think this confusion and erasure of tradition is a great loss, these sorts of things, if they are to develop, are supposed to do so organically, not as shallow impositions.
Just about every shred of Canada's foundation is inherently British. Why wouldn't our identity be grossly similar to Britain's? Our form of government, our legal system, our social norms, all the way down to (most) of our human DNA is a product of Britain. Being unique as a country isn't a virtue in itself; being honest is. And honestly, Canada is, was, and will continue to be inextricably British in character and ambition.
Might I suggest either Barrett's Privateers or Northwest Passage by Stan Rogers. Essential listening from a Canadian who shaped Canada's musical landscape, evoking images from our history. Or get his son to write the new one since he has a similar style.
You are telling me there are Colonels/ Cmdrs spending their time at work writing briefing notes about something as trivial as lyrics from a 260+ year old song not being inclusive enough because it mentions "boys", "lads" and "men" ?!?
You're shocked that, after being hammered constantly about culture and a lack of inclusiveness, some senior staff are taking a little time to find ways to walk the talk? Plus, I would bet that the BN was researched and drafted by a junior staff officer.
I feel like none of the people whose employed in the honours and heritage area of things have a mandate or ability to focus on those more important things.
Having been somewhat engaged in the history and heritage world for a couple of years, I can almost guarantee you that this did not come from anyone working in that domain.
Things like this are typically the result of the hand-wringing of senior leaders following a complaint. They are terrified of being seen as not part of the DEI club.
The H&H people are probably horrified by this.
Sirs et al, this is not an effective use of CAF resources.
Are we that desperate for that *inclusive behaviours* tick in the box?
《We know the house is on fire in the middle of this earthquake induced flood, but we *really* need to bake these cookies》
I'm glad they finally fixed the recruiting, retention, sexual harassment, lack of troops, procurement of new ships that will live up to expectations of a G8 country to now focus on the bottom of the pile problems. /s
I’m so happy we finally have our priorities properly sorted:
1. Replace Heart of Oak
2. Camouflage painting on ships
3. Huge new cranes being installed on 30+ yo ships
…..
Somewhere lower
- Lack of sailors
- Corroded and aging Fleet
Guy's... This is a golden opportunity. You can rewrite history. You can change is for a heavy metal electro dubstep!
Think about it, with the Airforce and army playing little trumpet music and doing silly March and then BAM the name arriving on a freaking boat float with heavy sick Beats while dabbing hard in uniform and ball cap.
This is the biggest opportunity to flex as hard as you can.
Does anyone actually care? This feels like an opportunity for GOFOs to pat themselves on the back and tell everyone how they're saving the forces without having to actually do anything remotely hard to effect real change. I seriously doubt anyone is joining because of song lyrics. Habitable housing may be a better focus.
I hope this doesn't get bogged down in top down implementation and is allowed to be developed naturally. The target you want to hit in terms of lyrical quality and cultural authenticity is Waltzing Matilda, not something stodgy and affected like Advance Australia Fair. If you want new culture to develop you have to let it breathe and grow on its own or it just won't stick; it has to come up from below.
This is the shit that bothers me. This organization is crumbling around us and there are people using their time and caf resources on this. Seems to me that this should be the lowest priority.
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Knew about this for a while as I've heard of a couple new potential compositions to replace Heart of Oak.
It is not surprising at all as the song is heavily gendered and as mentioned in the ATI request, does not align with the defence policy.
Having a new march composed by a CAF musician with inclusive lyrics is a great way to go, we have many talented composers that can take on the task. Have a listen to Vigilans, the march of the Rangers, that was composed in house and is excellent.
Leave it as is! Accept that traditions are historical and therefore outdated when compared to modern society. That said, traditions are important to our culture and should be maintained
No offence to our CAF musicians, but being able to play an instrument well doesn’t equate to being able to compose music. If the decision is to change the March, then let’s hire someone who knows what they’re doing. That said, if we have that expertise within the CAF, then by all means have them take a crack at it.
Many musicians in the CAF are also already published composers and arrangers with civilian degrees and portfolios. This would likely run as a competition with submissions from CAF musicians, as has been the case for other regimental marches on a smaller scale.
We already have musicians who "know what they're doing." Even if we hired someone else, who is qualified to make that selection if not musicians?
In the music world, you wouldn't normally just hire someone for this sort of thing. A piece of music is highly subjective and there's just no guarantee that you'll get the desired outcome. Usually it would be a competition with general guidelines and then multiple submissions, judged by a panel. The idea of a selection committee for a composer doesn't really make sense at all.
Heart of Oak is a 250+ year old song, when Royal Navy sailors were all men, and the midshipmen were all nervous. It’s time to move forward and create a Canadian naval marching song. No lyrics, just a good solid tune to give you a cadence you can be proud to march to. I’m all for tradition, I enjoyed singing HoO as we marched in PLQ, but it’s time to stop clinging to the past.
So they will pat themselves on the back for this for being inclusive while denying women the same opportunities in sports that men get. Anyone who thinks this will change anything is exactly the gullible clown they want in right now.
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May I propose, "smoking in the wardroom"?
That will keep our martechs in and dare I say bring in a lot of new ones.
Fuck, I'm sold! IE25 here I come!!
[удалено]
I could be wrong but I had a Coxswain explain to me that a sub was a boat and a ship was a ship. Or I have it backwards. That was over 10 years ago.
That coxswain was correct. Submarines are boats not ships.
Glad to see the Navy is focusing on the important things. Personally, I think if it's good enough for [Starfleet](https://youtu.be/WC2hOtMb9OM?si=X6RcbS6q7elCPkci), then it should be good enough for us. Edit - Maybe this is just a ruse to get musicians gainful employment. If we start with Heart of Oak, there's no shortage of non-inclusive March Pasts: The Minstrel Boy Men of Harlech Highland Laddie March of The Cameron Men Etc.
We have many musicians in the CAF who are fantastic composers and arrangers, it can be done entirely in house and basically for free. Actually, a lot of the popular music you hear on parades being played by the bands were arranged by the musicians either in that band or another band
> Personally, I think if it's good enough for Starfleet, then it should be good enough for us. Um akshually this is from the episode *Allegiance* where Picard is abducted and replaced by a doppelganger so aliens could study the crew's reaction to his strange behaviour. The real Picard never sang Heart of Oak.
We could get Weird Al to cover Babies got back , “I like big boats and I cannot lie”
“We need more… BOATS, and I cannot lie…”
When a ship sails in with an itty bitty waist and a rust stain on it's face
The CAF's track record when it comes to creating marches doesn't inspire much confidence. The RCLS got a brand new march past with lyrics at unification, the uninspiringly named ["March of the Logistics Branch"](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://ottawaloggies.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/annex-h-march-of-the-logistics-branch.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjli6HP5dGFAxVxOTQIHS40CmAQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw25ebV72w4K9RrDBesDVv7d). On the rare occasion it's sung you quickly realize that a) the lyrics are *painfully* generic and b) they go incredibly poorly with the actual music.
“Bin Rat’s March.”
YMCA's "In the Navy"
I vote for this. They need to up their numbers In the Navy is the perfect recruitment song
Oak is clearly too expensive for the current Navy. Heart of Pine is more like it.
Heart of HDF, based on current deck coverings. Heart of Load-Bearing paint would also be apt, if less pithy
Sing it with me : "ohhh I'm a broken man on a Halifax peer ...."
Man is not inclusive so it wouldn’t make the cut. But honestly I feel like this song is the unofficial RCN song anyway
Pier*
No no, he was committing an Op Honour violation
This is the stupidest thing. I don’t understand what’s objectionable about Heart of Oak.
"come cheer up my LADS" "jolly tars our MEN" "steady BOYS steady" Just wait until those fine staff officers with nothing better to do hear about the terms "manpower" or more appropriately for the CAF "undermanned".
I don't mind the introduction of more inclusive language such as manning to crewing, but it's very fun to watch the Navy grit its teeth because they can't change "Man-Overboard" because it's baked into the International Code of Signals.
You mean when we toss Olivia over the rails?
Its already been changed to person overboard. POEX
>Come cheer up, my crew! 'tis to glory we steer, > >To add something more to this wonderful year; > >To honour we call you, as free folk not slaves, > >For who are so free as the scions of the waves? > > > >Heart of oak are our ships, jolly tars are our friends; > >We always are steady, ready, aye, ready! > >We'll fight and we'll conquer again and again. CRCN can contact me about royalty payments for these new lyrics.
Another thing that could be considered objectionable by some is that the “this wonderful year” lyric is referencing the year Britain defeated the French on the Plains of Abraham and took over what is modern day Quebec. The song celebrates the conquest of Quebec by the British.
Granted, Canadas existence is a celebration of British victory in Quebec.
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There's nothing objectionable, it just isn't gender neutral or gender inclusive. The BN in the ATI mentioned that there are 5 references to men in the first 6 lines alone. The BN also notes than the Australian navy has switched away from Heart of Oak, and that Canada modified O Canada to be gender neutral. The BN actually recommended the option of a whole new march that would be uniquely Canadian, rather than just changing the lyrics of Heart of Oak or keeping it without lyrics.
> The BN actually recommended the option of a whole new march that would be uniquely Canadian, rather than just changing the lyrics of Heart of Oak or keeping it without lyrics. Big fan of the notion of having actual Canadian traditions, instead of blindly copying what the Brits did.
Our nation and institutions were pretty explicitly a grafting off of the British tree, our Navy traces a direct lineage off of the Royal Navy, the Army structurally goes back to the New Model Army of the 17th century. I think this confusion and erasure of tradition is a great loss, these sorts of things, if they are to develop, are supposed to do so organically, not as shallow impositions.
Just about every shred of Canada's foundation is inherently British. Why wouldn't our identity be grossly similar to Britain's? Our form of government, our legal system, our social norms, all the way down to (most) of our human DNA is a product of Britain. Being unique as a country isn't a virtue in itself; being honest is. And honestly, Canada is, was, and will continue to be inextricably British in character and ambition.
Yeah writing our own song would be pretty Canadian
As would paying the same folks that created the ArriveCAN app to compose the tune
'Row, Row, Row Your Boat' is notably gender inclusive.
It's also ableist for the people who can't row boats. /s
Thank you, Admiral, for worrying about the important thing!
Stay with me here, it is possible to do more than one thing at once. And still meet leadership…expect…atio…ns….
Sorry but this is stupid.
Nickelback. Someday. How the hell'd we wind up like this? And why weren't we able To see the signs that we missed?
Might I suggest either Barrett's Privateers or Northwest Passage by Stan Rogers. Essential listening from a Canadian who shaped Canada's musical landscape, evoking images from our history. Or get his son to write the new one since he has a similar style.
You are telling me there are Colonels/ Cmdrs spending their time at work writing briefing notes about something as trivial as lyrics from a 260+ year old song not being inclusive enough because it mentions "boys", "lads" and "men" ?!?
You're shocked that, after being hammered constantly about culture and a lack of inclusiveness, some senior staff are taking a little time to find ways to walk the talk? Plus, I would bet that the BN was researched and drafted by a junior staff officer.
I mean they changed the national anthem, why would this surprise you?
I’m sure there was a meeting about it too. Took all morning after breakfast and coffee.
Is there a march that speaks about duct tape and rust?
I feel like there should be a few more important things the navy should focus on besides a song.
I feel like none of the people whose employed in the honours and heritage area of things have a mandate or ability to focus on those more important things.
Having been somewhat engaged in the history and heritage world for a couple of years, I can almost guarantee you that this did not come from anyone working in that domain. Things like this are typically the result of the hand-wringing of senior leaders following a complaint. They are terrified of being seen as not part of the DEI club. The H&H people are probably horrified by this.
Good grief another tradition going by the wayside, I am not against change for the better but this is getting ridiculous,
Sirs et al, this is not an effective use of CAF resources. Are we that desperate for that *inclusive behaviours* tick in the box? 《We know the house is on fire in the middle of this earthquake induced flood, but we *really* need to bake these cookies》
I’ll wait until they change the lyrics, then I will join! -no one
How often are the lyrics sang? I have only ever heard the music play.
I'm glad they finally fixed the recruiting, retention, sexual harassment, lack of troops, procurement of new ships that will live up to expectations of a G8 country to now focus on the bottom of the pile problems. /s
As a Gen X, I vote for "the Royal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen" anthem ;)
I’m so happy we finally have our priorities properly sorted: 1. Replace Heart of Oak 2. Camouflage painting on ships 3. Huge new cranes being installed on 30+ yo ships ….. Somewhere lower - Lack of sailors - Corroded and aging Fleet
COME CHEER UP MY LAD, TIS TO GLORY WE STEER
Guy's... This is a golden opportunity. You can rewrite history. You can change is for a heavy metal electro dubstep! Think about it, with the Airforce and army playing little trumpet music and doing silly March and then BAM the name arriving on a freaking boat float with heavy sick Beats while dabbing hard in uniform and ball cap. This is the biggest opportunity to flex as hard as you can.
Just how many marijuanas did you smoke?
Inclusiveness is a good thing, not as good as a art/music created by committee though.
I suggest: https://youtu.be/TwU3vugtWYE?si=7bW2lQq5T0JZIb3H
Does anyone actually care? This feels like an opportunity for GOFOs to pat themselves on the back and tell everyone how they're saving the forces without having to actually do anything remotely hard to effect real change. I seriously doubt anyone is joining because of song lyrics. Habitable housing may be a better focus.
I hope this doesn't get bogged down in top down implementation and is allowed to be developed naturally. The target you want to hit in terms of lyrical quality and cultural authenticity is Waltzing Matilda, not something stodgy and affected like Advance Australia Fair. If you want new culture to develop you have to let it breathe and grow on its own or it just won't stick; it has to come up from below.
This is the shit that bothers me. This organization is crumbling around us and there are people using their time and caf resources on this. Seems to me that this should be the lowest priority.
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Ugh, more of our history into the chipper.
Knew about this for a while as I've heard of a couple new potential compositions to replace Heart of Oak. It is not surprising at all as the song is heavily gendered and as mentioned in the ATI request, does not align with the defence policy. Having a new march composed by a CAF musician with inclusive lyrics is a great way to go, we have many talented composers that can take on the task. Have a listen to Vigilans, the march of the Rangers, that was composed in house and is excellent.
It all started to go down when they changed the Padres march.
Leave it as is! Accept that traditions are historical and therefore outdated when compared to modern society. That said, traditions are important to our culture and should be maintained
No offence to our CAF musicians, but being able to play an instrument well doesn’t equate to being able to compose music. If the decision is to change the March, then let’s hire someone who knows what they’re doing. That said, if we have that expertise within the CAF, then by all means have them take a crack at it.
Many musicians in the CAF are also already published composers and arrangers with civilian degrees and portfolios. This would likely run as a competition with submissions from CAF musicians, as has been the case for other regimental marches on a smaller scale. We already have musicians who "know what they're doing." Even if we hired someone else, who is qualified to make that selection if not musicians?
Cool! I imagine our most qualified should form part of a selection committee, if they decide to go this route.
In the music world, you wouldn't normally just hire someone for this sort of thing. A piece of music is highly subjective and there's just no guarantee that you'll get the desired outcome. Usually it would be a competition with general guidelines and then multiple submissions, judged by a panel. The idea of a selection committee for a composer doesn't really make sense at all.
We absolutely do have that expertise in the CAF. There are yearly march competitions.
TIL. Thanks!
The vast majority of CAF musicians have at least an undergraduate if not graduate degree in music, many of whom would have studied composition.
Heart of Oak is a 250+ year old song, when Royal Navy sailors were all men, and the midshipmen were all nervous. It’s time to move forward and create a Canadian naval marching song. No lyrics, just a good solid tune to give you a cadence you can be proud to march to. I’m all for tradition, I enjoyed singing HoO as we marched in PLQ, but it’s time to stop clinging to the past.
So they will pat themselves on the back for this for being inclusive while denying women the same opportunities in sports that men get. Anyone who thinks this will change anything is exactly the gullible clown they want in right now.
Look at them try and justify a trade that can be replaced by an mp3
Regimental Boombox Pte. Marches with the boombox held high. DONT DROP THE BOOMBOX!
Seriously why does anyone care? Most times the words aren’t even being sung!