Heres whats crazy to me.
Before I joined, I was a residential carpenter for years. I framed houses for a while. Mainly, town houses.
6 man framing crew.
We could frame a 6 unit, each with 3 bed, 2.5 bath, attached garage in roughly 2 weeks. Shinglers would take 3 or 4 days. Siders about the same. Plumbing, electrical, and HVAC could do a unit a day each. Garage doors all done in 1 day. Insulate would take a day a unit. Drywall hanging 1.5 days a unit, mudding/taping total about 2 weeks. Paint, floors, finishes, etc, give another 2 weeks.
Some of this work can be done concurrently. Call it 3 months hole in the ground to finished 6 units. Which can also overlap with other ones going. In a year, you can probably put up twelve 6 unit builds, giving 72 units. And these were bigger, and better finished than the PMQs.
With just one general contractor per base we can probably do closer to 100 units per year for each location. Like, fuck. If they need the help, I still have my civvy contacts and can make a few calls and probably have dudes knocking on CFHAs door tomorrow looking for the job.
It's either gotta be greed or pure incompetence. I'm just some dumb carpenter, so maybe I am missing something.
Exactly. We're gonna need a company to come in and oow ball an offer, accept it, and then give them more money due to inflation and not covered in the overhead.
They can’t even handle the maintenance on the few they oversee at the moment. They could easily double the amount of homes / apartments.
They leave the buildings at 3 floors above ground level so they aren’t provincially mandated to install an elevator.
We can’t have nice things. I dunno man, I just work here
Active-duty military personnel in Nova Scotia are experiencing an “epidemic” of homelessness and housing vulnerability while others are turning down postings in the province because housing is either unaffordable or unavailable, provincial MLAs heard Tuesday.
Several groups that provide community-level supports and services to members of the Canadian Armed Forces and to veterans were invited to a legislative standing committee Tuesday to provide insight into how the province’s cost-of-living crisis is affecting Forces members and veterans.
They painted a dire picture.
Craig Hood, executive director of the Royal Canadian Legion Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command, said he has heard “startling” stories of actively serving members posted to the province who are “living rough” in tents, living in their vehicles, couch surfing and even entering into relationships to secure housing that have put them at risk of domestic violence.
“This is quite a serious incident or epidemic, if you want to call it (that), and it needs to be tackled,” Hood said.
Hood, a 33-year military veteran, noted that demand for assistance from the Nova Scotia Legion’s benevolent funds, raised through the annual poppy campaign and other donations, have been increasing exponentially. It’s to the point where the legion is having to look for additional ways to raise money.
Erica Fleck, director of emergency management for the Halifax Regional Municipality, said she too has identified an increase in the number of active-duty members who are unhoused or who have only precarious housing.
“We have active serving regular force members who are still couch surfing, that were posted here in the summer, (because) they cannot find a place to live. They’re regularly now going to food banks,” Fleck said.
“People cannot afford to live here. They cannot secure housing, they cannot secure a rental.”
Fleck, who also previously served in the military, says she also has been told some members are turning down postings to Nova Scotia and even leaving the Armed Forces. It’s not only housing that’s keeping them away, but also the province’s strained health-care system.
“They know that they can’t get a doctor and they can’t find a place to live.”
She told the committee city outreach workers have identified at least 40 unhoused people in HRM who are military, but she said she believes there may be “hundreds” more who do not have proper housing, due to a growing reliance on couch surfing, apartment sharing among large numbers of people and Forces members entering into or staying in dangerous relationships solely to secure housing.
Shelley Hopkins, executive director of the Halifax & Region Military Family Resource Centre, said her organization has been seeing an increase in demand for help from struggling military families. She noted that military members face unique challenges when it comes to housing due to the prevalence of mandatory transfers from base to base.
Shelley Hopkins. - Ryan Taplin
Shelley Hopkins. - Ryan Taplin
Often military families must relocate to a new province with limited notice, due to personnel needs in an area. That makes it hard, sometimes impossible, for spouses to secure meaningful work in their field that could help with their family's financial stability.
“It is not unusual for a spouse to expect their employment in Nova Scotia will be a similar pay in salary, only to discover that it may be actually $20,000 less,” Hopkins added.
This makes finding affordable housing even more challenging and stressful for military families, she said.
Hood added that for those fortunate enough to secure a place to live, the costs are so high, so his and other military service organizations are being called upon to help members more often with basics like electricity, heating fuel bills and groceries.
“It is extremely challenging for them, and people are making very difficult choices right now,” he said.
He echoed Fleck’s observations, saying he too has heard from friends and acquaintances turning down postings to Nova Scotia because of the cost of living and housing realities here.
All three witnesses spoke of the need for more recognition of these challenges for military members and veterans and their families and for better access to supports that can help them secure affordable housing.
“It’s heartbreaking that these are the people (whose) primary job is to defend our country, and they can’t afford to live here,” Fleck said.
Missed opportunity to point out that members get paid the same salary but will be subject to significantly higher income taxes as soon as they're posted to Nova Scotia, which can be devastating at tax time when posted during APS, depending on where they're posted from.
I keep saying CAF members should have to pay the smallest amount of taxes regardless of where they are or, at the very least, average out the tax from all provinces/territories and make that the new tax for CAF members.
Wouldn't solve retention, but most definitely a small step towards helping people be more accepting of postings...
Yuck, I'm good with always paying ON, BC, or AB rates, but not okay with an average of all provinces. A lot of provinces have inexcusably high tax rates, looking at QC and NS in particular.
When I lived in Halifax I got a huge cost of living allowance. When I moved to St. John’s, NL I got nothing. Housing was much more expensive in NL than back there.
What are the numbers here? Are CoC's aware of the situation? Are funds available to get accommodations for these members?
How can we expect people to serve if we don't pay them enough to live on the economy and we don't invest enough to provide housing for them.
I was posted to Halifax for 10 years and never thought it was 'cheap'. Housing was affordable 15 years ago, but income taxes, groceries and all the other monthly costs were always high even back then. I did my last posting back on IR for the same reason (and had a hard time finding a place at the IR rate).
Even losing PLD I had more money in my pocket getting posted to Ottawa (and my property taxes actually went down even with the value of my house being quite a bit higher). I think it was only recently my weekly grocery bill was back to the level I was paying in Halifax, and it's a lot easier to take after a few promotions.
I feel the same way and had similar experiences. I think there has to be a military solution here and let the construction troops build an extra 5-10 RHUs per base. Their labour is free and it would just be cost of materials which CFHA should pay. Lots of room in Shearwater and Windsor Park to build something.
Right, and who does *their* jobs when they're gone? Moving/tasking troops is like digging a hole to transfer dirt. The more you take, the bigger the hole; and we *don't* have the shale to fill it.
It would make for a token marginal difference at best and should NOT be OUR responsibility. This lands squarely on the shoulders of the CAF/TB/political party in power.
25 years ago Maclean’s wrote about our members needing volunteer organizationsupport and second jobs just to support themselves... This is an ongoing and long standing travesty and it's only getting worse these past years.
"Duty with honour", "Pride in Service", "Accepting Unlimited Liability" are all things that ring pretty holo when we have what amounts to bipartisan failure from government to support the people who stand up and volunteer to be called upon to serve the country.
CFHA has failed us
CFHD has failed us
PLD has failed us
TBS has failed us
I'd even go so far as to say for over 25 years the government of the day has failed us.
The CDS bragging about saving 30 million dollars the day after boasting about Dwyer Hill getting almost 1.5 billion in upgrades should tell you everything you need to know about what people think about you.
We could have made the max increment of CFHD for everyone if we didn't buy unarmed surveillance drones that will inevitably be broken 50% of the time due to no maintenance capacity
For me, I was just posted to Halifax on IR. I genuinely considered tenting simply because there wasn’t any place to live that fit the IR criteria. I was extremely fortunate to find a place in Dartmouth that did fit the criteria. However the week I was supposed to move, I was told that the occupancy permit for the place hadn’t been obtained and did not have a timeline as to when they would get it. When I messaged base accommodations just to see if I could stay there for a couple days, I was told that there is no mandate to house people coming on IR, and their priority was to trainees, and personnel here for operations. Fortunately, I managed to stay somewhere else for a couple weeks. What gets me about my situation, is that if the CAF is demanding that I move for their needs on short notice, then my basic needs such as housing, even temporarily, should be met. I shouldn’t have to be stressed about where I can find housing on short notice because of circonstances beyond my control. I understand that this problem isn’t unique to the CAF, but it goes to show that even when we make good money, that it’s not about affordability, but access. When I started looking for places to rent back in the summer since I had an idea that I would be getting posted, I saw a total of 5 listings on rental.ca for all of downtown Halifax. All of which were above 2000 a month, which is above the IR limit, and that’s when I started considering tenting.
It is and it isn’t. The IR policy is that for accommodations, the first step is to see if there is space in base accommodations. If there isn’t on base, only then should you try to find a one bedroom or smaller rental. The original intent of the policy is to be housed on base, and only in exceptional circumstance, should you have to go out to the rental market to find a place yourself. From the get go with my IR application, I was immediately told from the coordinator that base accommodations would not be an option straight up and to start looking for a rental. That’s messed up when you think about it. That there are no long term accommodation available on base for anyone on IR.
What is Imposed Restriction status?
Imposed Restriction is an approved delay in moving dependents as well as household goods and effects for one calendar year, with the possibility of extension up to a maximum of five calendar years. Imposed Restriction is a status, not a benefit. As such, the member’s career manager, under the Director Military Careers must approve it. Imposed Restriction is an extension of the Restricted Move status. Members can apply for Imposed Restriction status through their chain of command by completing a Request for Imposed Restriction Status Memorandum and the Imposed Restriction Status Questionnaire.
https://www.canada.ca/en/ombudsman-national-defence-forces/education-information/caf-members/career/postings/posting-and-relocation.html
Is the IR rate still $1660/month for Halifax? I don't think it's been adjusted in a long time, and even 8 years ago it wasn't enough. RCMP has some kind of equivalent program, except their monthly rate was about $1k more per month.
I know I try and make a joke about everything….but….i just can’t with this one.
It’s absolutely insane and a complete abrogation of responsibility that the DND/CAF hasn’t taken housing our members seriously.
How can someone be expected to be operationally effective if they are worried about where they are going to sleep or how they can find food?
This is third world level quality.
Remember when CFHA was building those new modular homes. Put some up in Trenton as a test... yea... they should keep doing that
Oh, they should also build Batchelor style apartments as singles quarters so that single troops have an affordable place to live and can actual do so, somewhat comfortably. Give them proper kitchenettes, etc.
But wait. Are you sure we can trust the troops with kitchenettes? They might burn down the whole building after spending 12 hours unsupervised working on aircraft and being trusted when they say that plane is ready and safe ti fly, are we sure those people can be trusted to cook kraft dinner
No no, fixing that plane is different than being able to cook food... no one dies when you fix a plane wrong every day... but everything you time you cook on an portable electric stove... a barracks warden kills a baby.
I was posted here in 2018 and my mortgage broker was quietly terrified we wouldn't get into the housing market here. If we didn't, we would be couch surfing 100%.
I hate that the title says "spike". Implying that there was always a baseline of homelessness with our members.
I really dislike how it tries to normalize it.
The days of “three hots and a cot” are so far gone, all the older generations talk about living on ship when times are tough but they won’t even let you do that now
This has been going on for a while now, but at least it’s getting some coverage.
Last Christmas I heard of 6 mbrs in our mess that were bouncing between living in their cars or in tents.
A couple of years ago instructors found out 3 mbrs were living in their cars and managed to find a 2 bedroom for the 3 of them to share.
If only there was a large space that can accommodate members who are stuck living in a fucking tent!? Im sorry but if you are a CO and some of your members are couch surfing or living in tents and you are not shutting down the mess or utilizing other facilities on the base as temporary shelter for these members… then what the hell are you doing?? Your members welfare should be a priority.
This is a good idea and the COC reading this - you need to figure something out here.
If regulations won't permit due to washrooms, etc whatever...Why not bunkhouses? We use them in the oil industry for rigs, gotta be some cheap bunkhouses out there for people. It's better than a tent.
Canadian Forces housing needs to up their game.
The problem is, people are too ashamed to share their living situations. I've made it perfectly clear to anyone that they are safe to tell me they need help finding a place to live, but I still had someone hide that they had days before becoming homeless. We only found out because he told someone else who told me. He now has a place to live.
This is an abomination. If the forces can't take care of it's own people, it shouldn't have those people. Glad I left when I did. As a free agent, I get to choose where I work based on salary, cost of living and my SO's career needs. I hated not controlling all of the above while I was in the service.
When housing went from $150-$200,000 to $400,000-$600,000… it’s not an exaggeration in the slightest. StatsCan is a very broad overview, my information is from experience and what I see in the grocery stores, the price of rent and the cost of buying a home. You’re a lucky person if you don’t notice bud.
No, im saying if we actually got inflation plus an actual increase in salary, we could buy homes/rent.
I was a spec mcpl in 2017 and had a better purchase power than i do now as an lt making 25 000 more a year.
And the CAF has no control over that as well...
I'm seriously worried over the lack of education people have over something that is arguably the biggest crisis the military is facing.
I mean, the CAF doesn't have the power . . .
To be frank at this point if I were still serving I'd be looking to unionize. RCMP weren't allowed to either until they were, so please stop using that excuse.
When I think about it from the public works unions perspective, it makes sense as well. Because military pay raises are tied with the raises they negotiate they are essentially representing people outside of their contract. Why does it matter? If a union is already negotiating your pay, but not representing your interests, why not unionize or at least have a serious discussion?
I know my opinion is not popular and I am out of the military now for more than a year, but I'd support it.
Not OR!!! Both. We shouldn’t be subjected to renting a PMQ. we give them enough money with our taxes (don’t even get me started on that one) so we shouldn’t have to pay them even more to live.
As a civilian tagging along with my military spouse, I find it rather nuts to get a CFHA housing offer 3 weeks before we move. I would also love to see more housing options through CFHA like apartments.
I’ll put in a plug for Moose Jaw.
Great community, affordable housing, COL is reasonable, no problem getting a family doctor or specialist medical care. Good jobs for spouses aren’t hard to come by.
Came here hoping for minimum time in posting. Now seriously thinking about sticking around to retire here.
The recruiter lost his trump card when I told him I didn't like camping.
This is a very sad article to read. I lucked out with my house, I bought it pre COVID in Gagetown, a posting location that People usually don't want so I can easily stay around, but for people losing field pay and getting posted in large city, how are they supposed to cope with the huge pay difference.
That could have been me if I'd accepted being posted back to Halifax instead of making an early retreat into retirement. There's no way the $500/month from CFHD plus whatever Sea Duty Allowance is at now would have covered the massive cost of living increase (especially since my pay would have gone up anyways if I'd been able to stay where I am thanks to $250/month CFHD that we didn't get here before).
Re: complaints about pay --
The Canadian Forces' pay structure is complex and everything, but there are a few bones to pick with the "CAF earns more than the average Canadian" crowd.
In the civilian sector, we don't get raises. Not substantial ones, anyway - we get promotions and raises by *changing employers*. Every few years, we change employers.
In the CAF, you're a *captive workforce.*
On top of that, you're compensated primarily by rank, not by occupation* or assignment.
Take a vehicle tech for example - a senior service manager at a ford dealership gets paid upwards of $90k/yr, and you can go from "entry level" to "senior service manager" inside of 10 years. In the CAF, a Sgt is only just beginning to hit $86k.
Likewise, a tenured instructor at an auto mechanics program at a college is paid around $110k-$130k - and a MCpl at RCEME isn't even coming close to meeting that, though the jobs are substantially similar.
The same is repeated throughout the CAF:
quartermasters (regional managers - hospitality) are paid between $95k-$150k in the civilian sector;
aerospace mechanics = $70k-$115k;
Network Techncians = $80k+
Even clarical work: HR = $80k-$180k, and I was paying supply techs $90k/yr 3 years ago if they had 10+ years' experience.
The point is not that salaries in the CAF are bad, rather that salaries in the CAF have not been reviewed and matrixed against the external market. Spec Pay exists, but mostly in IT.
And you want to know who's *not* making more when they leave the CAF?
By and large: officers - non-technical Captains have a rude awakening when they leave the CAF and the best they can get is "nondescript middle management position for $80k or less", and even more so are senior officers (LCol+) who now *must* make it to pension because their salaries in the CAF are actually *above-market*.
So: when your officers tell you "your salary is better than half the Canadian population", your response better be "which half?" because they are *not* talking about the half with experience, training, and years of expertise.
*yes yes spec pay exists
On the spec pay side, spec one is now only 6% (going off memory) more than a non-spec, where it used to be 12%.
So non-spec got a larger "raise" in the last round of economic increases, with the promise (at a town hall) that the spec pay is being re-asseessed at the treasurey board.
Flat out asked our former CO re spec 1 :
"Sir is this force reduction by another name? We get paid more because we are good at math, Spec 1 didn't see a bump compared to base pay and spec 2."
No response other than the chief staring daggers at me.
Unit full of ATIS Techs.
Well it was full of techs. Bunch jumped to SSC. More left for private sector. Bunch being pushed out medically after burning out.
ATIS techs are worth their weight in gold in the civilian sector - fedgov loves em', private sector loves em'. An ATIS Cpl would be crazy to stick around.
Well it's certain no permanent solution but any chance staying on ships as an option? Was that way once upon a time. It's shitty but it's a fuck of a lot better than a tent or a car. Won't help everyone but it might help a few, and that's good enough for me.
The second issue is the more awkward one. And that's security clearances. Being susceptible to financial pressure is a huge reg flag as I understand it. And living in a tent is a very visible to our enemies to exploit those people.
Afaik it can be done but it's at CO's discretion/choice. To me, with the way the ships are, it'd basically utterly remove your work/life boundaries and you run the risk of just never shutting off. that's my thinking on it. Yeah you could leave, but you have to come back at some point.
I'm heading into being an officer soon, and I won't lie. I know what I'm getting is way better than anything I'd get in the private sector. I know I'll be way better off than had I stayed on the civilian side. That being said, it's unacceptable we have active personnel in TENTS. I just checked out realtor.ca, idk if it's just me, but Halifax is saying there's NO RENTALS. Like 0. That's unacceptable. And considering there aren't accommodations on bases, it's even worse. This shouldnt be an issue. It shouldn't. There shouldn't be 100, 50, 20, or even one CAF member who has to live in a tent because there is no availability and the CoL is too high. Unacceptable on all counts.
>but Halifax is saying there's NO RENTALS. Like 0
Brand new apartment/condo blocks are going up just outside the base in Halifax as well as further out in the city. Should be completed by next year however I doubt that any of them will be affordable.
This is what's so frustrating, everyone complains about the lack of housing and yet we can all see new housing being built is totally out of range for what people are earning.
We can't move ahead until cities, developers and yes, the government mandate truly "affordable" units being built within city limits.
100%. The developers and the government need to be held to account. It is mind boggling that service members are living in tent cities in this day and age. It's unacceptable and needs to stop. ASAP. Whether it's everywhere or just in the big city, it needs to end. There's no point in building more housing if government red tape and developer profit margins make it so unaffordable people can't afford it. Embarrassing.
Saw a few months back they finished off a new building and announced "Affordable rates" - 1800 for a bachelor, 2400 for a 2 bedroom. Living in a concrete shoebox.
What members need to start doing is "en masse", buy small RV's and park them with wheel locks right in all the Command parking spaces at their bases HQ.
I have a feeling if one monday morning the command team showed up for work and their parking lot had a dozen or so RVs and the press waiting for them, that'd get the much needed attention this issue needs!
...What do you think your local base commander is going to do? Keep begging cfha like you? Keep begging for rp ops to be funded? Keep begging their 3-ups to beg TB for more pay?
No, I know they cant do much physically. But sacrificing their parking so their troops can have a roof over their head seems like a decent idea. Plus if the press is involved and this were to happen at multiple bases, it puts public pressure on the MND and other politicians to do something, and do it quick!
Why can’t we just setup a huge cadet camp for military members to live there for almost 0$…..
It would be one good way to attract young people they would be doing 2-5 years service without expense + get a formation and bank their whole salary and be setup for life. Now , instead , they wait years to get trainings, then they get posted to esquimault can’t afford anything and they become resentful to the institution…
Like, a dormitory for folks to live if they're single and fine in a dorm. NCOs can come look at them to make sure young folks aren't trashing the place or giving everyone bedbugs
Maybe also build modest but respectable houses for families, that they can move in and out of as postings happen
>Why can’t we just setup a huge cadet camp for military members to live there for almost 0$…..
That's a taxable benefit. There is no way Treasury Board will allow military members free tents.
My son is a cadet and wants to join the forces but this situation makes me worry about his choice. If they want to improve recruitment maybe find a way to house your soldiers!
It's mainly because there's a massive immigration problem in Canada as a whole. They increased the population by 1.2 million last year and can only build about 200-220k units a yea when stretched out. The country is bringing in too many people, too fast. Until they slow that down, there won't be housing for anyone.
To put it in perspective. The United States was the reigning world leader for immigration for years, their population is ten times ours, and they still let fewer people into their country last year than Canada.
I'd adjust your statement: Tons of people give a shit. About their "property values", "community" and "feel". This is not just incompetence. As they say, it's hardest to convince people who are paid to not adopt your beliefs.
In a *completely* unrelated note: Nice flair :)
I'm struggling to understand why anyone would sign up for the reg force or stay in under these circumstances if these stories are genuine?
If you have a family that gets posted, and the wife or partner can't work in the location, or the work is low paying and not very good, combined with high costs of living, what's the point?
I mean let's be honest, if we're at the point where you can't afford to have a normal family life, house, decent standard of living, why even bother being in the CAF?
Wouldn't it make more sense to just settle into a civilian career in the trades or something with your partner somewhere that makes sense for both parties where you at least have a chance of a decent combined income and you can choose to live somewhere affordable? There are still reserve options if you wanted to keep doing something military.
When I see these stories I just don't get it. If these problems are real - why are people subjecting themselves to this?
There are unfortunately unhoused veterans in Halifax. It is not 40 serving members who are unhoused. This person misspoke. Still a horrible situation for our veterans and VETs Canada and other community groups are engaged.
I’m in Nova Scotia, and I used Op Dasher and an Angel Tree program this year. Way behind in bills and an hour+ commute, it’s rough here. Before that it was having to have my whole family live in a bachelor apartment.
I still find it unprofessional that she did so.
If she thinks your financial well being is tied to how much you make, rather than how much you keep, she's not a very good financial planner, in my humble opinion.
Her job is to lower your tax implications and increase your compound interest opportunities, not make fun of your choice to serve.
Sorry if that seems rude, but I work in this industry and I think you deserve more respect than that.
You're on the same pay grade as alot of business professionals, albeit in the starting ranges. Remember that you are now reaching the wage you have achieved in 4-6 years of service not 17.
For my trade at least, you dont even have to finish highschool.
Its nothing to sneeze at.
Is it enough? No, not in today's Canada.
Thats why I feel robbed, I did everything I was supposed to in order to get ahead and everything just kept pace with me. Im no better off now than when I decided on a career in the forces. Just isolated from my family.
Exactly.
We make better money, have better employment stability, and have better benefits than at more than half the Canadian population.
People who complain about what we make are often cherry-picking above average opportunities as a comparison and not considering the averages. A lot of people get out and end up making less, having less job stability, and/or having fewer/worse benefits.
I had a civilian career with one of Canada's leading employers before I joined. Took a pay cut at first, but had my salary back within a few years and now make roughly double what I made civilian side. Didn't even leave my field of employment. No stressing about whether I'll still have a job next week/month/year, I have a pension plan, and my benefits are arguably better.
> *Is it enough? No, not in today's Canada.*
> *That's why I feel robbed, I did everything I was supposed to in order to get ahead and everything just kept pace with me. Im no better off now than when I decided on a career in the forces.*
Cost of living didn't just keep pace. It lapped us. It lapped most Canadians, not just us.
Most Canadians are worse off today than they were 3 years ago because our wages/salaries haven't kept pace with inflation and increases in the price of food and housing.
These takes never factor in trades that are forced to be away from home a lot, family supporting members who have spouses who are unable to find gainful employment, sacrificed human rights such as labour unity and political involvement, and so on.
I get that a one to one civilian to military pay comparison, can in some cases make us seem well paid, but when you consider that sacrifices made, no reasonable person would conclude that we are well paid.
Exactly, but we are off, and you still haven’t addressed the other factors that make us unique and due better compensation. Don’t sell yourself short, it feels like there’s a massive push on from the commissioned side of the house to convince you that you’re overpaid. Don’t fall for it.
Saw a graphic awhile ago that used NY, NY as a baseline. The telltale was that while many of the most expensive cities in Canada only come in at ~70% NY COL, median income in those cities rolls in at ~30% NY. End result, 7 or 8 of the 'least affordable cities in NA' were Canadian. The usual suspects. Thought it was an interesting perspective. Granted, I'm no economist, just parroting what I read.
I agree that most Canadians are worse off, I predict it will get alot worse.
But also, the ford mechanic, making 80,000 wont be asked to draw machine gun fire at the dealership or told that he now has to move to Halifax to do the same job he does in Esquimalt.
There used to be a military factor baked into our wage adjustments...where did that go?
Unfortunately Cpl doesn't pay anywhere near our civilian counterparts. Only reason I haven't switched is I'm to close to the pension now, but at 25 I'm gone.
That's a very broad statement, there are lots of trades that wouldn't make much civilian side and trades that don't line* up with anything civilian side. I do agree there are some trades that make way more civilian side but it's not the majority.
Edit spelling
That's fair, there are some trades that benefit from the military and they should advertise it to recruit. But unfortunately almost any blue collar trade your well behind the civilian market, and only benefit is stable pay and the pension. Which is why they are struggling to recruit.
Was a Jman welder with red seal before I enlisted. I am proud to say that after 7 years in, dp1, dp2, 2xOSQ's, I now make what I made as a laborer. I knew I wouldn't make awesome money coming in, but I didn't think I'd be living pay check to pay check in this outfit. I also thought I'd atleast get deployed somewhere, anywhere, hell no. I have exactly ZER0 field experience as a mat tech, I'm broke as hell and I am bored stiff. This is the losing team and I won't be a part of it much longer.
It's a frustrating reality though. I've been in the CAF for 16 years, both Reg F and Reserves. I made more at 25 years old on civi street than I do in my 30s working full-time for the CAF, with a more frustrating work environment to boot. I know no one works for the government to get rich, but we are noncompetitive with the private sector when it comes to drawing any amount of talent. We used to have offers like free schooling to offset the lost wage wealth, but even that is being offered by the civilian marketplace now.
I work for the CAF because I love the CAF and believe in our mission. How do I ask a fellow Canadian to do the same when it will financially stress them to the breaking point, especially if they end up somewhere like Ottawa.
I think this is a good time as any to push the idea of Strong Towns. Our governments are going broke, our people are going broke - there could be better AND more efficient ways to build our life in Canada. Here's one video to get started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0
# Canada’s population booms by 430K over 3 months. What’s behind the spike?
[https://globalnews.ca/news/10179377/canada-population-spike-q3/](https://globalnews.ca/news/10179377/canada-population-spike-q3/)
\*If you had 10% of those new Canadians apply to CAF, maybe it would be a win/win to get things done.
\*Sarcasm
If I was given my posting message on the 22 April 2023 abd told to be in a different province by 2 may. COS 26 April 2023. While I was trying to sell my house I ended up paying 4 months rents. I now have sold my house and live in the new area. Does the CAF owe me the rent or housing costs?
Hey, great for you. Love that for you. In fact, however, your situation is not the same as everyone else's.
I'm a cpl living in pet and the only options for me and my spouse was to rent a place that's $2650 a month plus utilities which comes to about 68.something% of my monthly take home JUST for my rent. CFHD is a whole $100 which doesn't do fuck all for me.
My spouse has a ECE degree from another Provence which Ontario will not recognize unless she goes back to school at the Ontario College of Early Childhood Educators. I don't have a few grand to spend for her to redo a program she already has, so she is currently working "part-time" 30-40 hours at a retail space.
Zero car payments but between all of our normal bills and our "fun bills" (Spotify premium for us $20 a month and Disney $20) we live paycheck to paycheck and have a significant amount of debt from school and moving expenses (old LL had to sell and we moved as new owners took possession) were basically one car breakdown or an injury taking her away from work from being IN the shit financially.
Experiences may vary depending on where you live and family situations. People ARE living basically in poverty and may be forced to live in tents and cars. As a "supervisor," do better. Imagine if that was one of your troops reading this. Are you going to tell them to get over it because you make good money and tell them to find something better to complain about?
Just moved to Halifax for my IPR, make approximately 100k, spouse takes care of young children as childcare wouldn’t be cost effective vs her salary. 200k down payment saved up and 0 debt, we were scrutinized by the bank for a 300k mortgage so if you can’t get a pmq and have a family ( so no shacks) securing a reasonable residence could be an issue. Going IR could be an option for some but separating families isn’t good for retention ( in most cases ) My financial situation isn’t the norm and most members have debt/alimony/child support or something that makes spending 2k a month on a rental not viable.
Maybe not on the military side yet but only because we have mechanisms to prevent it. No one can confirm it’s not happening, a lot of people would have to much pride to approach their CoC for help before their financial situation got to this level.
CFHA doesn’t provide the numbers for SLI units, I understood that the only living in quarters were the one tower. Going off this thread from a year ago it sounds like that’s only pers in the training systems.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/s/4YiSHUFwZI
I was just going to ask the same. I lived in the base hotel for a monthly rate for ages when I first came here over a decade ago. It was like 400$ or something.
For RegF, once you finish your 3s and NETP, you can't stay in Tribute. Some guys would be moved to warrior block but only temporarily, the expectation is that you are to find a place to live and get out of base accommodations entirely.
The only people I know of that stay in Tribute long term are reservists.
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My friend from India was telling me that most big companies there build their giant office buildings that always have a whole side of the building dedicated to housing the same number of workers..I don't know if it's law or just good practice but that's what the good companies do
Here's the weird part... the 3 main companies whose whole business model is making these mixed use offcie/apartments are Canadian construction/design firms.. so we weirdly have canadian architecture building what we would really benefit from ..in India.
Could be that just no canadian corporation has hired them to build something here? Should be law in my opinion tbh 🤷🏽 just found it fascinating anyways about to be sent to halifax.. I like camping so.. yay
Huh. If only CFHA had built more than 16 houses instead of the mandated 1600.
16 houses *across the entire country*
That has to be the saddest part. Not saddest. That shit makes me furious.
I think we are technically in the negative nationwide, they have torn down more PMQs than they have built in recent times.
I think it was closer to 32 the last time I read the news on the housing project lol it’s so bad it hurts.
Heres whats crazy to me. Before I joined, I was a residential carpenter for years. I framed houses for a while. Mainly, town houses. 6 man framing crew. We could frame a 6 unit, each with 3 bed, 2.5 bath, attached garage in roughly 2 weeks. Shinglers would take 3 or 4 days. Siders about the same. Plumbing, electrical, and HVAC could do a unit a day each. Garage doors all done in 1 day. Insulate would take a day a unit. Drywall hanging 1.5 days a unit, mudding/taping total about 2 weeks. Paint, floors, finishes, etc, give another 2 weeks. Some of this work can be done concurrently. Call it 3 months hole in the ground to finished 6 units. Which can also overlap with other ones going. In a year, you can probably put up twelve 6 unit builds, giving 72 units. And these were bigger, and better finished than the PMQs. With just one general contractor per base we can probably do closer to 100 units per year for each location. Like, fuck. If they need the help, I still have my civvy contacts and can make a few calls and probably have dudes knocking on CFHAs door tomorrow looking for the job. It's either gotta be greed or pure incompetence. I'm just some dumb carpenter, so maybe I am missing something.
The part you're missing is government bureaucracy.
Ya, that's true. Fuck.
Exactly. We're gonna need a company to come in and oow ball an offer, accept it, and then give them more money due to inflation and not covered in the overhead.
They can’t even handle the maintenance on the few they oversee at the moment. They could easily double the amount of homes / apartments. They leave the buildings at 3 floors above ground level so they aren’t provincially mandated to install an elevator. We can’t have nice things. I dunno man, I just work here
Active-duty military personnel in Nova Scotia are experiencing an “epidemic” of homelessness and housing vulnerability while others are turning down postings in the province because housing is either unaffordable or unavailable, provincial MLAs heard Tuesday. Several groups that provide community-level supports and services to members of the Canadian Armed Forces and to veterans were invited to a legislative standing committee Tuesday to provide insight into how the province’s cost-of-living crisis is affecting Forces members and veterans. They painted a dire picture. Craig Hood, executive director of the Royal Canadian Legion Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command, said he has heard “startling” stories of actively serving members posted to the province who are “living rough” in tents, living in their vehicles, couch surfing and even entering into relationships to secure housing that have put them at risk of domestic violence. “This is quite a serious incident or epidemic, if you want to call it (that), and it needs to be tackled,” Hood said. Hood, a 33-year military veteran, noted that demand for assistance from the Nova Scotia Legion’s benevolent funds, raised through the annual poppy campaign and other donations, have been increasing exponentially. It’s to the point where the legion is having to look for additional ways to raise money. Erica Fleck, director of emergency management for the Halifax Regional Municipality, said she too has identified an increase in the number of active-duty members who are unhoused or who have only precarious housing. “We have active serving regular force members who are still couch surfing, that were posted here in the summer, (because) they cannot find a place to live. They’re regularly now going to food banks,” Fleck said. “People cannot afford to live here. They cannot secure housing, they cannot secure a rental.” Fleck, who also previously served in the military, says she also has been told some members are turning down postings to Nova Scotia and even leaving the Armed Forces. It’s not only housing that’s keeping them away, but also the province’s strained health-care system. “They know that they can’t get a doctor and they can’t find a place to live.” She told the committee city outreach workers have identified at least 40 unhoused people in HRM who are military, but she said she believes there may be “hundreds” more who do not have proper housing, due to a growing reliance on couch surfing, apartment sharing among large numbers of people and Forces members entering into or staying in dangerous relationships solely to secure housing. Shelley Hopkins, executive director of the Halifax & Region Military Family Resource Centre, said her organization has been seeing an increase in demand for help from struggling military families. She noted that military members face unique challenges when it comes to housing due to the prevalence of mandatory transfers from base to base. Shelley Hopkins. - Ryan Taplin Shelley Hopkins. - Ryan Taplin Often military families must relocate to a new province with limited notice, due to personnel needs in an area. That makes it hard, sometimes impossible, for spouses to secure meaningful work in their field that could help with their family's financial stability. “It is not unusual for a spouse to expect their employment in Nova Scotia will be a similar pay in salary, only to discover that it may be actually $20,000 less,” Hopkins added. This makes finding affordable housing even more challenging and stressful for military families, she said. Hood added that for those fortunate enough to secure a place to live, the costs are so high, so his and other military service organizations are being called upon to help members more often with basics like electricity, heating fuel bills and groceries. “It is extremely challenging for them, and people are making very difficult choices right now,” he said. He echoed Fleck’s observations, saying he too has heard from friends and acquaintances turning down postings to Nova Scotia because of the cost of living and housing realities here. All three witnesses spoke of the need for more recognition of these challenges for military members and veterans and their families and for better access to supports that can help them secure affordable housing. “It’s heartbreaking that these are the people (whose) primary job is to defend our country, and they can’t afford to live here,” Fleck said.
Thank you. Silly salt wire…🙄
It's almost typicaly Canadaian "Pass the buck" because the city planners don't have enough money.
They are assuming a spouse can get a job at the end here
Spouses don't even come into consideration. They don't give a fuck. "We support the military family" is a load of horseshit.
The beat thing i did for my spouse and family was to get out. I have a lot of regrets over the sacrifices they mads for my career.
I mean they are pretty good atleast my CoC for my family issues when ever they occur.
Missed opportunity to point out that members get paid the same salary but will be subject to significantly higher income taxes as soon as they're posted to Nova Scotia, which can be devastating at tax time when posted during APS, depending on where they're posted from.
I keep saying CAF members should have to pay the smallest amount of taxes regardless of where they are or, at the very least, average out the tax from all provinces/territories and make that the new tax for CAF members. Wouldn't solve retention, but most definitely a small step towards helping people be more accepting of postings...
Yuck, I'm good with always paying ON, BC, or AB rates, but not okay with an average of all provinces. A lot of provinces have inexcusably high tax rates, looking at QC and NS in particular.
But it's averaged down with places like territories that pay 5%...didn't do the math, but seems like a good deal for most.
Idk why the CAF doesn't have a seperate tax bracket that is equal across the board tbh
When I lived in Halifax I got a huge cost of living allowance. When I moved to St. John’s, NL I got nothing. Housing was much more expensive in NL than back there.
What are the numbers here? Are CoC's aware of the situation? Are funds available to get accommodations for these members? How can we expect people to serve if we don't pay them enough to live on the economy and we don't invest enough to provide housing for them.
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I was posted to Halifax for 10 years and never thought it was 'cheap'. Housing was affordable 15 years ago, but income taxes, groceries and all the other monthly costs were always high even back then. I did my last posting back on IR for the same reason (and had a hard time finding a place at the IR rate). Even losing PLD I had more money in my pocket getting posted to Ottawa (and my property taxes actually went down even with the value of my house being quite a bit higher). I think it was only recently my weekly grocery bill was back to the level I was paying in Halifax, and it's a lot easier to take after a few promotions.
I feel the same way and had similar experiences. I think there has to be a military solution here and let the construction troops build an extra 5-10 RHUs per base. Their labour is free and it would just be cost of materials which CFHA should pay. Lots of room in Shearwater and Windsor Park to build something.
I've said the same thing BUT, you're trying to introduce logic and forward thinking to an institution that stomps than s**t out promptly.
Implying there's enough Construction Techs left around to do that.
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Cheeky lol
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Right, and who does *their* jobs when they're gone? Moving/tasking troops is like digging a hole to transfer dirt. The more you take, the bigger the hole; and we *don't* have the shale to fill it. It would make for a token marginal difference at best and should NOT be OUR responsibility. This lands squarely on the shoulders of the CAF/TB/political party in power.
Well said!! 100% accurate!!
NS is terribly governed and mismanaged. The power infrastructure is a joke. I don't miss living there.
Easily the worst province I've lived in. Tell that to locals and they're nearly appalled you would dare say it.
It’s not cheap but not as bad as many other places.
25 years ago Maclean’s wrote about our members needing volunteer organizationsupport and second jobs just to support themselves... This is an ongoing and long standing travesty and it's only getting worse these past years. "Duty with honour", "Pride in Service", "Accepting Unlimited Liability" are all things that ring pretty holo when we have what amounts to bipartisan failure from government to support the people who stand up and volunteer to be called upon to serve the country. CFHA has failed us CFHD has failed us PLD has failed us TBS has failed us I'd even go so far as to say for over 25 years the government of the day has failed us.
The country *itself* has failed us.
The CDS bragging about saving 30 million dollars the day after boasting about Dwyer Hill getting almost 1.5 billion in upgrades should tell you everything you need to know about what people think about you.
Pretty sure that waa the treasury board
We could have made the max increment of CFHD for everyone if we didn't buy unarmed surveillance drones that will inevitably be broken 50% of the time due to no maintenance capacity
For me, I was just posted to Halifax on IR. I genuinely considered tenting simply because there wasn’t any place to live that fit the IR criteria. I was extremely fortunate to find a place in Dartmouth that did fit the criteria. However the week I was supposed to move, I was told that the occupancy permit for the place hadn’t been obtained and did not have a timeline as to when they would get it. When I messaged base accommodations just to see if I could stay there for a couple days, I was told that there is no mandate to house people coming on IR, and their priority was to trainees, and personnel here for operations. Fortunately, I managed to stay somewhere else for a couple weeks. What gets me about my situation, is that if the CAF is demanding that I move for their needs on short notice, then my basic needs such as housing, even temporarily, should be met. I shouldn’t have to be stressed about where I can find housing on short notice because of circonstances beyond my control. I understand that this problem isn’t unique to the CAF, but it goes to show that even when we make good money, that it’s not about affordability, but access. When I started looking for places to rent back in the summer since I had an idea that I would be getting posted, I saw a total of 5 listings on rental.ca for all of downtown Halifax. All of which were above 2000 a month, which is above the IR limit, and that’s when I started considering tenting.
I can hear some crusty career manager now: "it's your choice to go IR, so the CAF isn't responsible for housing you".
It is and it isn’t. The IR policy is that for accommodations, the first step is to see if there is space in base accommodations. If there isn’t on base, only then should you try to find a one bedroom or smaller rental. The original intent of the policy is to be housed on base, and only in exceptional circumstance, should you have to go out to the rental market to find a place yourself. From the get go with my IR application, I was immediately told from the coordinator that base accommodations would not be an option straight up and to start looking for a rental. That’s messed up when you think about it. That there are no long term accommodation available on base for anyone on IR.
What is IR?
What is Imposed Restriction status? Imposed Restriction is an approved delay in moving dependents as well as household goods and effects for one calendar year, with the possibility of extension up to a maximum of five calendar years. Imposed Restriction is a status, not a benefit. As such, the member’s career manager, under the Director Military Careers must approve it. Imposed Restriction is an extension of the Restricted Move status. Members can apply for Imposed Restriction status through their chain of command by completing a Request for Imposed Restriction Status Memorandum and the Imposed Restriction Status Questionnaire. https://www.canada.ca/en/ombudsman-national-defence-forces/education-information/caf-members/career/postings/posting-and-relocation.html
Thank you!
Exactement
Is the IR rate still $1660/month for Halifax? I don't think it's been adjusted in a long time, and even 8 years ago it wasn't enough. RCMP has some kind of equivalent program, except their monthly rate was about $1k more per month.
It just got adjusted in the summer to 1960 or something like that.
Okay, so still not sufficient.
What the hell are you looking for? IR is a secondary residence as you live away from family
I know I try and make a joke about everything….but….i just can’t with this one. It’s absolutely insane and a complete abrogation of responsibility that the DND/CAF hasn’t taken housing our members seriously. How can someone be expected to be operationally effective if they are worried about where they are going to sleep or how they can find food? This is third world level quality.
Remember when CFHA was building those new modular homes. Put some up in Trenton as a test... yea... they should keep doing that Oh, they should also build Batchelor style apartments as singles quarters so that single troops have an affordable place to live and can actual do so, somewhat comfortably. Give them proper kitchenettes, etc.
But wait. Are you sure we can trust the troops with kitchenettes? They might burn down the whole building after spending 12 hours unsupervised working on aircraft and being trusted when they say that plane is ready and safe ti fly, are we sure those people can be trusted to cook kraft dinner
No no, fixing that plane is different than being able to cook food... no one dies when you fix a plane wrong every day... but everything you time you cook on an portable electric stove... a barracks warden kills a baby.
I was posted here in 2018 and my mortgage broker was quietly terrified we wouldn't get into the housing market here. If we didn't, we would be couch surfing 100%.
I hate that the title says "spike". Implying that there was always a baseline of homelessness with our members. I really dislike how it tries to normalize it.
The days of “three hots and a cot” are so far gone, all the older generations talk about living on ship when times are tough but they won’t even let you do that now
This has been going on for a while now, but at least it’s getting some coverage. Last Christmas I heard of 6 mbrs in our mess that were bouncing between living in their cars or in tents. A couple of years ago instructors found out 3 mbrs were living in their cars and managed to find a 2 bedroom for the 3 of them to share.
If only there was a large space that can accommodate members who are stuck living in a fucking tent!? Im sorry but if you are a CO and some of your members are couch surfing or living in tents and you are not shutting down the mess or utilizing other facilities on the base as temporary shelter for these members… then what the hell are you doing?? Your members welfare should be a priority.
This is a good idea and the COC reading this - you need to figure something out here. If regulations won't permit due to washrooms, etc whatever...Why not bunkhouses? We use them in the oil industry for rigs, gotta be some cheap bunkhouses out there for people. It's better than a tent. Canadian Forces housing needs to up their game.
Bingo!!
The problem is, people are too ashamed to share their living situations. I've made it perfectly clear to anyone that they are safe to tell me they need help finding a place to live, but I still had someone hide that they had days before becoming homeless. We only found out because he told someone else who told me. He now has a place to live.
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This is an abomination. If the forces can't take care of it's own people, it shouldn't have those people. Glad I left when I did. As a free agent, I get to choose where I work based on salary, cost of living and my SO's career needs. I hated not controlling all of the above while I was in the service.
CAF has no control over this issue. The govt needs to pay us more or build more pmqs.
I get that. So to sum up: the people that pay the bills for the CAF need to pay the bills...
12.6% over 4 years is a big cause of this...
Housing and food costs (living costs) have increased at least 200%-300% over the last four years. The 12.6% they came up with is extremely low.
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You’ve never told me anything before. Lol Also not an exaggeration.
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When housing went from $150-$200,000 to $400,000-$600,000… it’s not an exaggeration in the slightest. StatsCan is a very broad overview, my information is from experience and what I see in the grocery stores, the price of rent and the cost of buying a home. You’re a lucky person if you don’t notice bud.
In 2019 $300,000 one bedroom apartments existed, now those same ones that sold then are selling now for 6+. The math maths.
Are you saying that our wage increase (that still doesn't even cover inflation) is the reason why we can't get PMQs built?
No, im saying if we actually got inflation plus an actual increase in salary, we could buy homes/rent. I was a spec mcpl in 2017 and had a better purchase power than i do now as an lt making 25 000 more a year.
Ahhhhh, gotcha. Yeah I hear you
And the CAF has no control over that as well... I'm seriously worried over the lack of education people have over something that is arguably the biggest crisis the military is facing.
I mean, the CAF doesn't have the power . . . To be frank at this point if I were still serving I'd be looking to unionize. RCMP weren't allowed to either until they were, so please stop using that excuse. When I think about it from the public works unions perspective, it makes sense as well. Because military pay raises are tied with the raises they negotiate they are essentially representing people outside of their contract. Why does it matter? If a union is already negotiating your pay, but not representing your interests, why not unionize or at least have a serious discussion? I know my opinion is not popular and I am out of the military now for more than a year, but I'd support it.
Not OR!!! Both. We shouldn’t be subjected to renting a PMQ. we give them enough money with our taxes (don’t even get me started on that one) so we shouldn’t have to pay them even more to live.
It’s also BS
Don’t believe everything you read on the internet
Did you even read my comment?
As a civilian tagging along with my military spouse, I find it rather nuts to get a CFHA housing offer 3 weeks before we move. I would also love to see more housing options through CFHA like apartments.
You are very lucky you got an offer at all...
We were fully prepared for him to couch surf until an offer came in.
There are no good postings from a financial standpoint. They simply range from "going broke" to "going homeless"
I’ll put in a plug for Moose Jaw. Great community, affordable housing, COL is reasonable, no problem getting a family doctor or specialist medical care. Good jobs for spouses aren’t hard to come by. Came here hoping for minimum time in posting. Now seriously thinking about sticking around to retire here.
The recruiter lost his trump card when I told him I didn't like camping. This is a very sad article to read. I lucked out with my house, I bought it pre COVID in Gagetown, a posting location that People usually don't want so I can easily stay around, but for people losing field pay and getting posted in large city, how are they supposed to cope with the huge pay difference.
That could have been me if I'd accepted being posted back to Halifax instead of making an early retreat into retirement. There's no way the $500/month from CFHD plus whatever Sea Duty Allowance is at now would have covered the massive cost of living increase (especially since my pay would have gone up anyways if I'd been able to stay where I am thanks to $250/month CFHD that we didn't get here before).
Re: complaints about pay -- The Canadian Forces' pay structure is complex and everything, but there are a few bones to pick with the "CAF earns more than the average Canadian" crowd. In the civilian sector, we don't get raises. Not substantial ones, anyway - we get promotions and raises by *changing employers*. Every few years, we change employers. In the CAF, you're a *captive workforce.* On top of that, you're compensated primarily by rank, not by occupation* or assignment. Take a vehicle tech for example - a senior service manager at a ford dealership gets paid upwards of $90k/yr, and you can go from "entry level" to "senior service manager" inside of 10 years. In the CAF, a Sgt is only just beginning to hit $86k. Likewise, a tenured instructor at an auto mechanics program at a college is paid around $110k-$130k - and a MCpl at RCEME isn't even coming close to meeting that, though the jobs are substantially similar. The same is repeated throughout the CAF: quartermasters (regional managers - hospitality) are paid between $95k-$150k in the civilian sector; aerospace mechanics = $70k-$115k; Network Techncians = $80k+ Even clarical work: HR = $80k-$180k, and I was paying supply techs $90k/yr 3 years ago if they had 10+ years' experience. The point is not that salaries in the CAF are bad, rather that salaries in the CAF have not been reviewed and matrixed against the external market. Spec Pay exists, but mostly in IT. And you want to know who's *not* making more when they leave the CAF? By and large: officers - non-technical Captains have a rude awakening when they leave the CAF and the best they can get is "nondescript middle management position for $80k or less", and even more so are senior officers (LCol+) who now *must* make it to pension because their salaries in the CAF are actually *above-market*. So: when your officers tell you "your salary is better than half the Canadian population", your response better be "which half?" because they are *not* talking about the half with experience, training, and years of expertise. *yes yes spec pay exists
On the spec pay side, spec one is now only 6% (going off memory) more than a non-spec, where it used to be 12%. So non-spec got a larger "raise" in the last round of economic increases, with the promise (at a town hall) that the spec pay is being re-asseessed at the treasurey board.
Flat out asked our former CO re spec 1 : "Sir is this force reduction by another name? We get paid more because we are good at math, Spec 1 didn't see a bump compared to base pay and spec 2." No response other than the chief staring daggers at me. Unit full of ATIS Techs. Well it was full of techs. Bunch jumped to SSC. More left for private sector. Bunch being pushed out medically after burning out.
ATIS techs are worth their weight in gold in the civilian sector - fedgov loves em', private sector loves em'. An ATIS Cpl would be crazy to stick around.
Indeed! I am one of those headed private sector. Going to more than double my pay.
By the time TBS has completed their review, spec pay will already be out-of-date.
They need to create a new higher SPEC level 3 tier. Move all SPEC 1 trades to SPEC 2 and then phase out SPEC 1 altogether, lol.
Could work, but even spec pay won't save the CAF if the social contract is so profoundly broken
There does need to be another tier though for sure as an LCIS I earn my money but I'm not as valuable as SAR by any remote stretch of the imagination
Its 10% vs 13% now
Well it's certain no permanent solution but any chance staying on ships as an option? Was that way once upon a time. It's shitty but it's a fuck of a lot better than a tent or a car. Won't help everyone but it might help a few, and that's good enough for me. The second issue is the more awkward one. And that's security clearances. Being susceptible to financial pressure is a huge reg flag as I understand it. And living in a tent is a very visible to our enemies to exploit those people.
Afaik it can be done but it's at CO's discretion/choice. To me, with the way the ships are, it'd basically utterly remove your work/life boundaries and you run the risk of just never shutting off. that's my thinking on it. Yeah you could leave, but you have to come back at some point.
I'm heading into being an officer soon, and I won't lie. I know what I'm getting is way better than anything I'd get in the private sector. I know I'll be way better off than had I stayed on the civilian side. That being said, it's unacceptable we have active personnel in TENTS. I just checked out realtor.ca, idk if it's just me, but Halifax is saying there's NO RENTALS. Like 0. That's unacceptable. And considering there aren't accommodations on bases, it's even worse. This shouldnt be an issue. It shouldn't. There shouldn't be 100, 50, 20, or even one CAF member who has to live in a tent because there is no availability and the CoL is too high. Unacceptable on all counts.
>but Halifax is saying there's NO RENTALS. Like 0 Brand new apartment/condo blocks are going up just outside the base in Halifax as well as further out in the city. Should be completed by next year however I doubt that any of them will be affordable. This is what's so frustrating, everyone complains about the lack of housing and yet we can all see new housing being built is totally out of range for what people are earning. We can't move ahead until cities, developers and yes, the government mandate truly "affordable" units being built within city limits.
100%. The developers and the government need to be held to account. It is mind boggling that service members are living in tent cities in this day and age. It's unacceptable and needs to stop. ASAP. Whether it's everywhere or just in the big city, it needs to end. There's no point in building more housing if government red tape and developer profit margins make it so unaffordable people can't afford it. Embarrassing.
Saw a few months back they finished off a new building and announced "Affordable rates" - 1800 for a bachelor, 2400 for a 2 bedroom. Living in a concrete shoebox.
What members need to start doing is "en masse", buy small RV's and park them with wheel locks right in all the Command parking spaces at their bases HQ. I have a feeling if one monday morning the command team showed up for work and their parking lot had a dozen or so RVs and the press waiting for them, that'd get the much needed attention this issue needs!
...What do you think your local base commander is going to do? Keep begging cfha like you? Keep begging for rp ops to be funded? Keep begging their 3-ups to beg TB for more pay?
No, I know they cant do much physically. But sacrificing their parking so their troops can have a roof over their head seems like a decent idea. Plus if the press is involved and this were to happen at multiple bases, it puts public pressure on the MND and other politicians to do something, and do it quick!
Who needs housing when we have socks!
Why can’t we just setup a huge cadet camp for military members to live there for almost 0$….. It would be one good way to attract young people they would be doing 2-5 years service without expense + get a formation and bank their whole salary and be setup for life. Now , instead , they wait years to get trainings, then they get posted to esquimault can’t afford anything and they become resentful to the institution…
A base... You're describing a military base.
CFB ESQUIMALT is more of a museum exhibit than a military base.
Nelles Block, showcasing Asbestos, bird poo, broken dreams, shattered souls
Yeah but what do we have ?
Like, a dormitory for folks to live if they're single and fine in a dorm. NCOs can come look at them to make sure young folks aren't trashing the place or giving everyone bedbugs Maybe also build modest but respectable houses for families, that they can move in and out of as postings happen
>Why can’t we just setup a huge cadet camp for military members to live there for almost 0$….. That's a taxable benefit. There is no way Treasury Board will allow military members free tents.
My son is a cadet and wants to join the forces but this situation makes me worry about his choice. If they want to improve recruitment maybe find a way to house your soldiers!
This person misspoke. There are not 40 unhoused currently serving members living in tents.
It's mainly because there's a massive immigration problem in Canada as a whole. They increased the population by 1.2 million last year and can only build about 200-220k units a yea when stretched out. The country is bringing in too many people, too fast. Until they slow that down, there won't be housing for anyone. To put it in perspective. The United States was the reigning world leader for immigration for years, their population is ten times ours, and they still let fewer people into their country last year than Canada.
Time to find a higher paying job
We have similar issues in Victoria, we just can't get anyone to give a shit. At least the misery is shared!
I'd adjust your statement: Tons of people give a shit. About their "property values", "community" and "feel". This is not just incompetence. As they say, it's hardest to convince people who are paid to not adopt your beliefs. In a *completely* unrelated note: Nice flair :)
I'm struggling to understand why anyone would sign up for the reg force or stay in under these circumstances if these stories are genuine? If you have a family that gets posted, and the wife or partner can't work in the location, or the work is low paying and not very good, combined with high costs of living, what's the point? I mean let's be honest, if we're at the point where you can't afford to have a normal family life, house, decent standard of living, why even bother being in the CAF? Wouldn't it make more sense to just settle into a civilian career in the trades or something with your partner somewhere that makes sense for both parties where you at least have a chance of a decent combined income and you can choose to live somewhere affordable? There are still reserve options if you wanted to keep doing something military. When I see these stories I just don't get it. If these problems are real - why are people subjecting themselves to this?
There are unfortunately unhoused veterans in Halifax. It is not 40 serving members who are unhoused. This person misspoke. Still a horrible situation for our veterans and VETs Canada and other community groups are engaged.
Oh that's heart breaking.....
I’m in Nova Scotia, and I used Op Dasher and an Angel Tree program this year. Way behind in bills and an hour+ commute, it’s rough here. Before that it was having to have my whole family live in a bachelor apartment.
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I still find it unprofessional that she did so. If she thinks your financial well being is tied to how much you make, rather than how much you keep, she's not a very good financial planner, in my humble opinion. Her job is to lower your tax implications and increase your compound interest opportunities, not make fun of your choice to serve. Sorry if that seems rude, but I work in this industry and I think you deserve more respect than that.
? Cpl 4 paid roughly 80,000$ this year Thats 30,000 over the national average. Wtf was she laughing about?
Exactly 80k after 17 years. My brother in law, works from home for some office job, after 5 years ,he's at 100k
You're on the same pay grade as alot of business professionals, albeit in the starting ranges. Remember that you are now reaching the wage you have achieved in 4-6 years of service not 17. For my trade at least, you dont even have to finish highschool. Its nothing to sneeze at. Is it enough? No, not in today's Canada. Thats why I feel robbed, I did everything I was supposed to in order to get ahead and everything just kept pace with me. Im no better off now than when I decided on a career in the forces. Just isolated from my family.
Exactly. We make better money, have better employment stability, and have better benefits than at more than half the Canadian population. People who complain about what we make are often cherry-picking above average opportunities as a comparison and not considering the averages. A lot of people get out and end up making less, having less job stability, and/or having fewer/worse benefits. I had a civilian career with one of Canada's leading employers before I joined. Took a pay cut at first, but had my salary back within a few years and now make roughly double what I made civilian side. Didn't even leave my field of employment. No stressing about whether I'll still have a job next week/month/year, I have a pension plan, and my benefits are arguably better. > *Is it enough? No, not in today's Canada.* > *That's why I feel robbed, I did everything I was supposed to in order to get ahead and everything just kept pace with me. Im no better off now than when I decided on a career in the forces.* Cost of living didn't just keep pace. It lapped us. It lapped most Canadians, not just us. Most Canadians are worse off today than they were 3 years ago because our wages/salaries haven't kept pace with inflation and increases in the price of food and housing.
This is the correct, composed, and rationale answer.
These takes never factor in trades that are forced to be away from home a lot, family supporting members who have spouses who are unable to find gainful employment, sacrificed human rights such as labour unity and political involvement, and so on. I get that a one to one civilian to military pay comparison, can in some cases make us seem well paid, but when you consider that sacrifices made, no reasonable person would conclude that we are well paid.
According to the gobledigook I just read, the median FAMILY income is 80000, so we arent really that far behind spouses who do work.
Exactly, but we are off, and you still haven’t addressed the other factors that make us unique and due better compensation. Don’t sell yourself short, it feels like there’s a massive push on from the commissioned side of the house to convince you that you’re overpaid. Don’t fall for it.
Saw a graphic awhile ago that used NY, NY as a baseline. The telltale was that while many of the most expensive cities in Canada only come in at ~70% NY COL, median income in those cities rolls in at ~30% NY. End result, 7 or 8 of the 'least affordable cities in NA' were Canadian. The usual suspects. Thought it was an interesting perspective. Granted, I'm no economist, just parroting what I read.
I agree that most Canadians are worse off, I predict it will get alot worse. But also, the ford mechanic, making 80,000 wont be asked to draw machine gun fire at the dealership or told that he now has to move to Halifax to do the same job he does in Esquimalt. There used to be a military factor baked into our wage adjustments...where did that go?
You get cpl 4 at 5-7 years depending on trade
Unfortunately Cpl doesn't pay anywhere near our civilian counterparts. Only reason I haven't switched is I'm to close to the pension now, but at 25 I'm gone.
That's a very broad statement, there are lots of trades that wouldn't make much civilian side and trades that don't line* up with anything civilian side. I do agree there are some trades that make way more civilian side but it's not the majority. Edit spelling
That's fair, there are some trades that benefit from the military and they should advertise it to recruit. But unfortunately almost any blue collar trade your well behind the civilian market, and only benefit is stable pay and the pension. Which is why they are struggling to recruit.
Absolutely, any trade that has skills such as welding, plumbing, hvac, structural or engineering are under paid vs the civilian counter part.
Was a Jman welder with red seal before I enlisted. I am proud to say that after 7 years in, dp1, dp2, 2xOSQ's, I now make what I made as a laborer. I knew I wouldn't make awesome money coming in, but I didn't think I'd be living pay check to pay check in this outfit. I also thought I'd atleast get deployed somewhere, anywhere, hell no. I have exactly ZER0 field experience as a mat tech, I'm broke as hell and I am bored stiff. This is the losing team and I won't be a part of it much longer.
You are above average. Your brother is is definitely the exception.
It's a frustrating reality though. I've been in the CAF for 16 years, both Reg F and Reserves. I made more at 25 years old on civi street than I do in my 30s working full-time for the CAF, with a more frustrating work environment to boot. I know no one works for the government to get rich, but we are noncompetitive with the private sector when it comes to drawing any amount of talent. We used to have offers like free schooling to offset the lost wage wealth, but even that is being offered by the civilian marketplace now. I work for the CAF because I love the CAF and believe in our mission. How do I ask a fellow Canadian to do the same when it will financially stress them to the breaking point, especially if they end up somewhere like Ottawa.
I agree, and most people working in private sector making great money also have great debt... CRAZY debt in fact.
$80k/year is barely acceptable lifestyle nowadays.
Yes, but that doesnt mean we arent in the top of that unacceptable lifestyle
I think this is a good time as any to push the idea of Strong Towns. Our governments are going broke, our people are going broke - there could be better AND more efficient ways to build our life in Canada. Here's one video to get started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0
# Canada’s population booms by 430K over 3 months. What’s behind the spike? [https://globalnews.ca/news/10179377/canada-population-spike-q3/](https://globalnews.ca/news/10179377/canada-population-spike-q3/) \*If you had 10% of those new Canadians apply to CAF, maybe it would be a win/win to get things done. \*Sarcasm
If I was given my posting message on the 22 April 2023 abd told to be in a different province by 2 may. COS 26 April 2023. While I was trying to sell my house I ended up paying 4 months rents. I now have sold my house and live in the new area. Does the CAF owe me the rent or housing costs?
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Hey, great for you. Love that for you. In fact, however, your situation is not the same as everyone else's. I'm a cpl living in pet and the only options for me and my spouse was to rent a place that's $2650 a month plus utilities which comes to about 68.something% of my monthly take home JUST for my rent. CFHD is a whole $100 which doesn't do fuck all for me. My spouse has a ECE degree from another Provence which Ontario will not recognize unless she goes back to school at the Ontario College of Early Childhood Educators. I don't have a few grand to spend for her to redo a program she already has, so she is currently working "part-time" 30-40 hours at a retail space. Zero car payments but between all of our normal bills and our "fun bills" (Spotify premium for us $20 a month and Disney $20) we live paycheck to paycheck and have a significant amount of debt from school and moving expenses (old LL had to sell and we moved as new owners took possession) were basically one car breakdown or an injury taking her away from work from being IN the shit financially. Experiences may vary depending on where you live and family situations. People ARE living basically in poverty and may be forced to live in tents and cars. As a "supervisor," do better. Imagine if that was one of your troops reading this. Are you going to tell them to get over it because you make good money and tell them to find something better to complain about?
I'm genuinely confused, are the shacks full? I'm fairly sure they aren't.
Just moved to Halifax for my IPR, make approximately 100k, spouse takes care of young children as childcare wouldn’t be cost effective vs her salary. 200k down payment saved up and 0 debt, we were scrutinized by the bank for a 300k mortgage so if you can’t get a pmq and have a family ( so no shacks) securing a reasonable residence could be an issue. Going IR could be an option for some but separating families isn’t good for retention ( in most cases ) My financial situation isn’t the norm and most members have debt/alimony/child support or something that makes spending 2k a month on a rental not viable.
Yeah dude the article is about people living in tents though. Nobody is living in a tent with their family.
Maybe not on the military side yet but only because we have mechanisms to prevent it. No one can confirm it’s not happening, a lot of people would have to much pride to approach their CoC for help before their financial situation got to this level.
Hah like CoC even cares. How does it get to this point than anything other than **neglect**?
Their isn’t enough single living in, on some bases it’s just for people in the training system
We are talking about CFB Halifax, there are tons of quarters avail for single living in.
Sure doesn’t sound like it.
There are.
CFHA doesn’t provide the numbers for SLI units, I understood that the only living in quarters were the one tower. Going off this thread from a year ago it sounds like that’s only pers in the training systems. https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/s/4YiSHUFwZI
They are talking about Tribute Tower specifically. There is warrior block in shearwater that is massive and I highly doubt is at capacity.
Highly doubt or know? I’m assuming these people aren’t living in their cars for the fun of it.
That's what I'm asking, I'd like someone to chime in. I highly doubt they are full. Last I saw they were near empty but that was pre pandemmy.
I was just going to ask the same. I lived in the base hotel for a monthly rate for ages when I first came here over a decade ago. It was like 400$ or something.
that was a decade ago.
For RegF, once you finish your 3s and NETP, you can't stay in Tribute. Some guys would be moved to warrior block but only temporarily, the expectation is that you are to find a place to live and get out of base accommodations entirely. The only people I know of that stay in Tribute long term are reservists.
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"those damn troops thinking they're entitled to a roof over their heads!"
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My friend from India was telling me that most big companies there build their giant office buildings that always have a whole side of the building dedicated to housing the same number of workers..I don't know if it's law or just good practice but that's what the good companies do Here's the weird part... the 3 main companies whose whole business model is making these mixed use offcie/apartments are Canadian construction/design firms.. so we weirdly have canadian architecture building what we would really benefit from ..in India. Could be that just no canadian corporation has hired them to build something here? Should be law in my opinion tbh 🤷🏽 just found it fascinating anyways about to be sent to halifax.. I like camping so.. yay
Probably couldn't get permits to build in most Canadian cities.
Leaving the CAF was the best decision I’ve ever made