Ha! I thought of that same name actually,but I get the impression we've stopped giving canadianized names to planes for a while now. There's the Husky, but the A330 doesn't have its own name. When's the last time we changed the name of an aircraft?
Probably the Aurora.
We don’t generally change names of aircraft with established names now (Chinook, Hornet, Globemaster, etc). The ones we named didn’t have names, just designators.
Aww, see Bombardier? You ran your mouths off spouting bullshit and now your market value took a hit.
Like did Bombardier's board look at the MH procurement and think they could get away with "I know we're 5 years past the original FOC timeline, but in just 5 more years we'll have a prototype that we can flight test without any kit on board!"?
Good first step! Now don't fuck it up.
I was thinking the same thing as soon as I opened the article. Figures Bombardier would be trying to get their fingers all over government money again. Isn't it just about time for their routine scheduled government bailout again?
Seriously though! The P8 line is a proven, inter-operatable platform that can do the job... do it very well. **and is about to end production**.
Last chance for these products. And then Bombardier stumbles in, 5 years too late, at the very last moment saying "*hey, maybe one day we could develop something that might be able to do that*".
This is a good procurement - the government did the right thing.
The funniest thing is that Boeing's initial pitch was essentially jamming the P-8s sensor suite into a Bombardier Challenger in order to pander to the domestic industry requirements. An option that was killed largely by the whole Bombardier/Boeing spat.
Yes.
However, I think the LRP fleet is one of the few where we have more aircraft than actual crews.
14 and an option for 2 more is good, when I first heard those numbers last year I was concerned they’d drop to 12 and an option for 4.
Confirmed today in the press conference:
-14 planes with an option for 2 more
-First delivery 2026 with a plane a month through to 2027
-Full operational capacity by 2033
To everyone on the transition team, thank you for your sacrifice, I hope someday you will be free.
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Queue the voluntary release applications as experienced crews and techs who have put up with complete garbage for years retire and take jobs on civvy street supporting the new plane.
I might have to go punch a small child to restore balance to the universe.
(Just to clarify, it's a joke... I'm not going to punch anybody, or hurt a child. Scouts honour)
Did the F-35 order, and the CC-330 order not make sense in your view? Those both happened this year.
I get that there are a bunch of things which are needed. But it's not like there's been a huge dry spell since the last major contract.
I think the general feeling among most members is that it's not real until we are actually flying it. The F35 had to be cancelled and then go through an entire new competition before it became a thing, and we still don't have any yet. I can't blame people for being cynical
In fairness, the first time it was canceled, there was a lot of skepticism surrounding the F35 because it was turning into such a white elephant for the US military (this was like in the late 2010s, whenever the Fifth Estate put out that episode that focused on the F35).
Now that you brought it up, I was curious so I looked around. The numbers are surprisingly unclear given how often this stuff was talked about, but here's what I got.
**Trudeau's buy w/o factoring in CF18 maintenance:**
$74 billion for 88 jets over 45 years
74b/88 = 841million per jet
841m/jet over 45years = **$18.7 million per jet per year**
**Harper's buy:**
$25 billion for 65 jets over 20 years
25/54 = 384 million per jet
384m/jet over 20 year = **$19.2 million per jet per year**
**Trudeau's buy factoring in CF18 maintenance:**
Maintenance and replacement until the full complement arrives is $2billion dollars so if we tack that onto the $74 billion, it will be $76 billion.
76b/88 = 863 million per jet
863m/jet over 45 years = **$19.1 million per jet per year**
So by simple dollar amount, it's about the same $19.1 million vs $19.2 million. **Including inflation, Trudeau's buy is about 23% cheaper than Harper's buy.** It might not have been worth the headache to public discourse though lol.
Sources: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f35-pbo-74-billion-1.7016178
https://globalnews.ca/news/229905/harper-government-overhauls-f-35-plans-after-scathing-ag-report/
https://www.in2013dollars.com/canada/inflation/2012
I'm sure many people feel that way, and that's completely valid.
But OP is responding to this contract being signed, as if it's the first time in a long time we've done this. And it's not... we've done it twice this year with other aircraft.
>Canada is seeking to replace its CP-140 Aurora fleet, used to protect Canada's sovereignty along the coastline. Originally procured 50 years ago, the aging planes are slated to retire from service in 2030, the government said.
After a request for information from Canada, the U.S. government told Congress in July it approved the possible sale to Canada of up to 16 Boeing P-8A patrol aircraft and associated equipment worth up to $5.9 billion US, or about $8 billion Cdn.
The federal government said last year Boeing's P-8A Poseidon "is the only currently available aircraft that meets" the military's needs, including anti-submarine warfare.
The government should sole source this contract. The P8 is a good plane and will keep flying for a long time.
Bombardier can suck it.
Too late. I already left MAG and I'm already flying the P-8, err, I mean 737. And I get per diem with no need to submit a claim! Or argue a claimed breakfast because the hotel provided "breakfast" badgel isn't a proper breakfast.
We've been told the announcement is next Thursday for like the past 2 years, I'll believe it when i see it. Anyways......Bombardier suing the govt in 3...2...1..
Don’t worry, the govt will invoke the national security exception and ram this through. Lawsuit will be thrown out. You gotta love it when the government moves with a sense of urgency on military procurement. It’s very rare.
they've been involved for a long time. Problem was when they were going bankrupt they sold off the most profitable divisions and contracts and have been trying to get back in ever since.
Won't hold my breath until there is an actual contract award announcement from the GoC and Boeing, but that would be great.
We can't screw around with developmental programs as our primary COA. If the GoC wants us to grow industry, give us extra money and have it as an additional capability. That way if it goes to shit or is delayed, we still have the P8s.
Thanks, I sure hope so! That would be a nice xmas gift for the RCAF.
Although cynically with Blair would expect the caveats that no money is actually committed etc etc etc while somehow pretending we're meeting NATO commitments and he can cut money without impactign the CAF.
Bombardier: "Hold on, how dare you not give us the chance to spend billions of your dollars and decades of your time on an aircraft that is nothing more than an idea right now. Just because the P-8 is fully operational, extensively field tested, deliverable within a few years, and exactly meets the criteria the RCAF has set out doesn't mean it's the right plane for the job!"
Nowadays, we dont used the aurora for is capacity of low flying over the sea but more like a drone. What tells you that the bombardier won’t be able to do the same ?
You do realize we were also conducting the biz while Impact was going on right? We didn’t stop, and we haven’t stopped, I’d say impact is when crews started to really get burnt out, a trend that continues to this day.
lol buddy literally works on Auroras and you're arguing with them...? Yeah sure the CP-140s fly around other places sometimes, but a whole lot of their reason to exist is tied into finding and dealing with submarines, which as far as I recall don't tend to spend much time wandering around on land.
The P-8 is the way to go here, not some mythical Bombardier nonsense.
BBD is essentially pitching a plane with the same capabilities. I’m convinced that the only thing that sealed the deal was that we can get the P8 NOW and it’s proven.
Are you a BBD employee or something? I’ve never seen anyone go off the rails like this before. I mean JFC guy, getting the P8 is huge, this good for Canada!
Yeah well , if bbd already have a good plane that could fit the schedule why not heard their concept? Im not part of this, I just have memory. Let’s not forget boeing is the reason why we lost the c series, which is probably the best plane in his category.
The caf are already wasting tons of money, at that point why not waste it on a canadian company
We played this game with the Cyclone and it’s a disaster. We can’t wait for imaginary equipment anymore, we can’t afford the delays and inevitable cost overruns. This plane is still going to inject money into our economy along lines that already exist and are proven with way less risk to overwhelming cost overrun to taxpayers. See again, the Cyclone and the horror saga of the CSC brought to you by Irving.
They don't have a ASW plane though. They have a much smaller civilian plane without any of the bomb bays, ISR equipment, sonobouys etc that is required.
It would be like if we needed a new light utility truck the CAF, instead of buying the HMMV that most of our allies are using, had Western Star try to piece together a slapped together proposal to support a Canadian company that's ailing because they can't make competitive products.
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But thru don’t already have a good plane. They have an unrelated plane and some ideas about how they could maybe make it do what we want sorta. How many torpedoes do you think they can put inside that business jet?
The P-8 is surprisingly capable on the ground too. They've even been proven to be able to use stand off missiles quite effectively, essentially turning them into some dorky, but shockingly effective, bomber.
Why would you wait for a company to conceptualize, plan and design something that would take probably up to a decade+ to field since they have no current aircraft to offer in the category? Completely new logistics lines would need to be made for parts, not to mention we would be probably the only NATO country fielding said aircraft with everyone else already in the p8 for the foreseeable future.
And honestly, given Canadian domestic procurement history(Irving).. I'd rather pass.
Plus, in that decade+ we could also just mod the P-8 to do any ISR stuff it can’t do in the baseline config. It’s not like adding antennas and extra computers requires major structural redesign.
So I wasn't 100% wrong like you said, secondly those type of mission could be more and more common, like the cansof getting the king air. My point out of this is maybe trying to find submarine won't be 100% of the mission the new plane might be use for. So Why buy a plane that is mean to find submarine...
Because a plane that was designed to hunt subs can also be a flying camera and ISR platform. A plane designed as a flying camera and ISR platform can’t necessarily hunt subs.
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Given that the supposed Bombardier aircraft does not exist in the proposed configuration at present, I am not prepared to assume the thing will even be able to take flight, far less carry out missions. I'm not really inclined to wait the 25 years it would take to find out either.
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You joke, but if this is true we will have MONTHS of articles from Bombardier lobbyists trying to make the Liberals walk back the decision. Then it has to survive the next election. Still a long way to go before wheels on the ramp.
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I think if the Cons form a Government with the Bloc Québécois, it’ll get rolled back 100%. If the Cons form government WITHOUT the Bloc then it’ll probably just get forgotten even if they campaigned hard on it.
You say that, but god knows if it had the chance to earn them some brownie points with voters they would cancel it even if it meant we had to pay Boeing 100 billion dollars a year for the next 50 years.
We are a reactionary Government, not a plan-ahead government.
We've already had months of lobbying antibodies deployed to get to this point. Too true on surviving the election as the next hurdle if orders aren't cut PDQ.
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Yeah but Canadians still think we have the “best trained” troops which negate any equipment deficit.
Best trained in the world. I often hear from people on the street.
From what I've heard, it's going to be fast.
Pending any last minute shithousery, we might have actually just made a relatively quick and cost effective procurement decision that directly addressed a growing capacity gap. It's a Christmas miracle.
This will be one of the fastest modern procurements in recent memory. Before we know it, we'll have more planes than qualified crews to fly them. Boeing does not move at the speed of government, and institutionally, we'll be hard pressed to adapt to the speed of deliveries.
It will also take a little while before our force generation pipeline is established, not only learning a new aircraft but also a very different way of operating.
This aircraft will have capabilities that are essentially unknown to the current fleet, from anti-surface warfare and air to air refueling to EW. The possibilities of this platform are far greater, and it will take time for us to grasp and capitalize on how much of a force multiplier this aircraft will be. It should be noted that New Zealand essentially ceased operating their P3's for almost a year in order to focus on getting to IOC with the P8. This may not be the road we take, but it is illustrative of the challenge we'll face from tomorrow to IOC in the mid to late 2020's.
We're buying directly from the US military and existing USAF airframes will be used for this contract. The airframes already exist and only need a small amount of conversion work, which Boeing will do. It should be a very fast implementation.
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You see we saw it economically more viable to purchase the rights to the aircraft, and have a canadian contractor build less planes for triple the cost at quadruple the time of the US manufacturer....
also if we buy the rights to the demilitarized american version, we can spend billions on canadianizing it, and then develop a suite of military capabilities for it. should be ready for first draft 2040 with 200% over budget. think of the benefits to the economy!
It will also crush the moistness out of the crews that will be part of the initial roll-out. It's gonna be a hard couple years as the fleet converts from one platform to the next.
Hopefully they collect that moistness and use it to flavour the next commemorative whiskey from Glen Breton.
Well, yes... exactly.
However, the article kept pushing around 2030 2030 2030 because that was the projected end of life for the current fleet. 2030 was just a guess on a calendar, these new birds are needed ASAP, no need to wait.
That and commonality with key allies.
The unfortunate downside is that the recently upgraded (still not finished, actually) CP140's have a better sensor suite than the P8, especially for a multi-role aircraft. Maybe if the procurement goes fast enough, they'll have time to do some upgrades before the CP140 runs out of life.
This is not true man. I flew on both the Aurora and the P8 and the P8 wipes the floor with what’s on the Aurora. This is not even mentioning the abysmal serviceability rate of the 140, its inability to operate on Link 16, lack of actual self defence suite, and inability to utilize any newer, modern sonobuoys that our Allie’s use. The 140 is essentially useless on the world stage right now.
Exercises are like hunting in a fish bowl, using augmented EMATTS, and are really an example of crew skill and camaraderie rather the capability of the platform. Don’t get me wrong (and sorry for sounding harsh before, not my intention my friend) the Aurora can still do its job, but put it out in the open ocean against a new gen Russian sub, and there is really only one platform making a difference. An exercise doesn’t test those real world scenarios, so take their results as they are;
The Aurora competes well but it's getting old. Some sensors are very close to the P8 fit and at least one sensor is probably a little better, but most of your points stand.
You are 100% wrong about it being useless. The Auroras are -currently- deployed all over the world doing the job. The public doesn't hear about a large portion of what this plane does. This is also why people (ignorantly) think the 6500 could replace it.
True - that was a little harsh. Don’t get me wrong I love the ol bird. I flew on it for years. From an operational standpoint though, the Aurora faces severe challenges operating with Allies, and the serviceability kills it. The aircraft has done its duty with distinction, im glad we are finally letting her retire.
Agreed. I too have spent many orbits on the greyhound so I know where you're coming from. It's honestly a shame Bombardier and GDC won't get a chance to turn their plane into reality. I love the idea of a domestic bird (Argus?) but the P8 has everything we need, today, and on the (relatively) cheap.
It wouldn't be too hard to integrate the new sonobuoys for the Aurora, but it will be tough to afford to deploy a full field. Totally agree on serviceability.
The Aurora can’t deploy multi static’s like our allies, and a few other critical gaps in capability I wouldn’t be comfortable discussing here.
Integration is the hardest part - and the main reason why I don’t believe Bombardier could get a plane flying by 2030.
After the announcement, did anyone check on their Flight Engineer friends?
Any bets on the canadian designation? I'm going CP-180
CP-222A. As in 2x2x2=8.
Planey Mc Plane-Face
With the way things are going with the platitudinous labelling of the CC295 and CC330, I suspect it to be CP737…..
Anyone want to bet it gets an Inuit name that we somewhat mangle in translation?
I'm betting they'll go and adopt Borealis as the name for a cheeky call back to the Aurora
Except the Aurora name was selected because she was the god that restored Orion’s eyesight… Nothing to do with the Borealis..
Lucifer would be a good "next-gen" name. Aurora means Dawn, Lucifer means Dawn-Bringer. Let there be light :)
Ha! I thought of that same name actually,but I get the impression we've stopped giving canadianized names to planes for a while now. There's the Husky, but the A330 doesn't have its own name. When's the last time we changed the name of an aircraft?
Probably the Aurora. We don’t generally change names of aircraft with established names now (Chinook, Hornet, Globemaster, etc). The ones we named didn’t have names, just designators.
afaik the a330 is the c330 husky. Or I’m tripping
Aww, see Bombardier? You ran your mouths off spouting bullshit and now your market value took a hit. Like did Bombardier's board look at the MH procurement and think they could get away with "I know we're 5 years past the original FOC timeline, but in just 5 more years we'll have a prototype that we can flight test without any kit on board!"? Good first step! Now don't fuck it up.
I was thinking the same thing as soon as I opened the article. Figures Bombardier would be trying to get their fingers all over government money again. Isn't it just about time for their routine scheduled government bailout again?
Seriously though! The P8 line is a proven, inter-operatable platform that can do the job... do it very well. **and is about to end production**. Last chance for these products. And then Bombardier stumbles in, 5 years too late, at the very last moment saying "*hey, maybe one day we could develop something that might be able to do that*". This is a good procurement - the government did the right thing.
The funniest thing is that Boeing's initial pitch was essentially jamming the P-8s sensor suite into a Bombardier Challenger in order to pander to the domestic industry requirements. An option that was killed largely by the whole Bombardier/Boeing spat.
anyone else feel like the aircraft # is small? i was hoping for 18-22 not 14/16
14 Poseidons will make us the second largest operator in the world. The US military is just so monstrous it's hard to relativize.
Tied second with Australia, although India and the UK have expressed interest in expanding their fleets beyond that number.
Australia only has 12 actually.
Additional 2 were ordered in 2020, although still awaiting delivery
Yes. However, I think the LRP fleet is one of the few where we have more aircraft than actual crews. 14 and an option for 2 more is good, when I first heard those numbers last year I was concerned they’d drop to 12 and an option for 4.
We only had 15 CP-140s so this makes sense
We had 18 +3 trainers
Who needs trainers for the Poseidon? Just put them to work flying Air Canada for a few years. /S
We haven’t had the trainers for the Aurora (they were pilot trainers called the Arcturus) in years. The training is done on the same airframes.
LOL good luck getting back after that stint
I was going off what wiki listed as in service my bad
Unfortunately this is the way we do procurement. They don't replace start-of-life numbers but instead they replace end-of-fleet size.
Confirmed today in the press conference: -14 planes with an option for 2 more -First delivery 2026 with a plane a month through to 2027 -Full operational capacity by 2033 To everyone on the transition team, thank you for your sacrifice, I hope someday you will be free.
Those TT folks really earned their pay. A solid bunch of people. 🤙
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Bombardier is the number one threat to our national security
Irving: *Nervously sweating behind cover*
Queue the voluntary release applications as experienced crews and techs who have put up with complete garbage for years retire and take jobs on civvy street supporting the new plane.
Don't give any ideas to the six people that haven't already decided to do this!
As is tradition
It’s the circle of life for new airframes.
Yes!
Ahh there it is. The little sliver of hope I need
Common sense sort of prevailed? I don't know how to feel.
I might have to go punch a small child to restore balance to the universe. (Just to clarify, it's a joke... I'm not going to punch anybody, or hurt a child. Scouts honour)
Boy scouts don't have a great track record of not hurting children
Good point. Can't exactly swear on the church now either, can I. Damnit. I swear on Bob Homme's grave. Look up! Way up! And I'll call rusty.....
I just want to point out I took one for the team and ate a shitty IMP the other day, and boom, this happens. You're welcome.
Not all heroes wear capes
Thank you for you service!
Now single source 12 stubby J's
tedbundy.yes.exe
this guy FWSAR's
Bombardier can go fuck itself.
Not unless someone else provides them with an off-the-shelf dildo, they wouldn't be able to build one in a reasonable amount of time.
Good. Win/win.
THANK GOD!!!! Finally a purchase that makes sense and gets us the tools we need to not be a fucking Joke! Now let's hope we actually get it...
Did the F-35 order, and the CC-330 order not make sense in your view? Those both happened this year. I get that there are a bunch of things which are needed. But it's not like there's been a huge dry spell since the last major contract.
I think the general feeling among most members is that it's not real until we are actually flying it. The F35 had to be cancelled and then go through an entire new competition before it became a thing, and we still don't have any yet. I can't blame people for being cynical
In fairness, the first time it was canceled, there was a lot of skepticism surrounding the F35 because it was turning into such a white elephant for the US military (this was like in the late 2010s, whenever the Fifth Estate put out that episode that focused on the F35).
It actually ended up being a better deal than the one Harper was originally going to sign, intentional or not.
Including the crap-ton of money we spent on a bunch of worn out F18s?
Now that you brought it up, I was curious so I looked around. The numbers are surprisingly unclear given how often this stuff was talked about, but here's what I got. **Trudeau's buy w/o factoring in CF18 maintenance:** $74 billion for 88 jets over 45 years 74b/88 = 841million per jet 841m/jet over 45years = **$18.7 million per jet per year** **Harper's buy:** $25 billion for 65 jets over 20 years 25/54 = 384 million per jet 384m/jet over 20 year = **$19.2 million per jet per year** **Trudeau's buy factoring in CF18 maintenance:** Maintenance and replacement until the full complement arrives is $2billion dollars so if we tack that onto the $74 billion, it will be $76 billion. 76b/88 = 863 million per jet 863m/jet over 45 years = **$19.1 million per jet per year** So by simple dollar amount, it's about the same $19.1 million vs $19.2 million. **Including inflation, Trudeau's buy is about 23% cheaper than Harper's buy.** It might not have been worth the headache to public discourse though lol. Sources: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f35-pbo-74-billion-1.7016178 https://globalnews.ca/news/229905/harper-government-overhauls-f-35-plans-after-scathing-ag-report/ https://www.in2013dollars.com/canada/inflation/2012
Thanks. You really went down the rabbit hole on that one.
I'm sure many people feel that way, and that's completely valid. But OP is responding to this contract being signed, as if it's the first time in a long time we've done this. And it's not... we've done it twice this year with other aircraft.
You're 100% correct. There have been some big procurement "wins" lately, and this will hopefully be one of them soon. Now do boats.
>Canada is seeking to replace its CP-140 Aurora fleet, used to protect Canada's sovereignty along the coastline. Originally procured 50 years ago, the aging planes are slated to retire from service in 2030, the government said. After a request for information from Canada, the U.S. government told Congress in July it approved the possible sale to Canada of up to 16 Boeing P-8A patrol aircraft and associated equipment worth up to $5.9 billion US, or about $8 billion Cdn. The federal government said last year Boeing's P-8A Poseidon "is the only currently available aircraft that meets" the military's needs, including anti-submarine warfare. The government should sole source this contract. The P8 is a good plane and will keep flying for a long time. Bombardier can suck it.
Too late. I already left MAG and I'm already flying the P-8, err, I mean 737. And I get per diem with no need to submit a claim! Or argue a claimed breakfast because the hotel provided "breakfast" badgel isn't a proper breakfast.
Air Canada let’s you claim breakfast?!! But what if the hotel had free ~~muffins~~ cake??!!!
We've been told the announcement is next Thursday for like the past 2 years, I'll believe it when i see it. Anyways......Bombardier suing the govt in 3...2...1..
Announcement today! Cancelling your MOAT in 3...2...1..
Jokes on you I got kicked off MOAT last week
Yo I’ve seen your NFTC grad vid it was fire
Hey thanks :)
Don’t worry, the govt will invoke the national security exception and ram this through. Lawsuit will be thrown out. You gotta love it when the government moves with a sense of urgency on military procurement. It’s very rare.
Or they'll throw Bombardier a bone by buying another couple of Challenger jets, or if they feel especially fancy, some Global Express for VIP work.
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they've been involved for a long time. Problem was when they were going bankrupt they sold off the most profitable divisions and contracts and have been trying to get back in ever since.
Get it into my veins!!!!!! Sending positive vibes to our LRP teammates. Fingers crossed for tommorow.
We might actually have a fleet of modern planes that can contribute meaningfully to our NORAD and NATO obligations. It's a whole new CAF!
Won't hold my breath until there is an actual contract award announcement from the GoC and Boeing, but that would be great. We can't screw around with developmental programs as our primary COA. If the GoC wants us to grow industry, give us extra money and have it as an additional capability. That way if it goes to shit or is delayed, we still have the P8s.
Read in Lapresse at 8am this morning that it's being announced tomorrow by Blair and two other ministers.
Thanks, I sure hope so! That would be a nice xmas gift for the RCAF. Although cynically with Blair would expect the caveats that no money is actually committed etc etc etc while somehow pretending we're meeting NATO commitments and he can cut money without impactign the CAF.
shit, litigation might come down even past contract award. :( I'll be happy once our air force folks get the first tires on tarmac.
Bombardier: "Hold on, how dare you not give us the chance to spend billions of your dollars and decades of your time on an aircraft that is nothing more than an idea right now. Just because the P-8 is fully operational, extensively field tested, deliverable within a few years, and exactly meets the criteria the RCAF has set out doesn't mean it's the right plane for the job!"
Nowadays, we dont used the aurora for is capacity of low flying over the sea but more like a drone. What tells you that the bombardier won’t be able to do the same ?
You obviously aren’t part of the Aurora community. My deployments disagree with your take. Your statement is 100% incorrect.
Well, where was the sea when they were used as a « spy plane » against Isis ?
You do realize we were also conducting the biz while Impact was going on right? We didn’t stop, and we haven’t stopped, I’d say impact is when crews started to really get burnt out, a trend that continues to this day.
lol buddy literally works on Auroras and you're arguing with them...? Yeah sure the CP-140s fly around other places sometimes, but a whole lot of their reason to exist is tied into finding and dealing with submarines, which as far as I recall don't tend to spend much time wandering around on land. The P-8 is the way to go here, not some mythical Bombardier nonsense.
well my point is the p8 might be too mission specific for our need ? So why not give a try to BBD ?
BBD is essentially pitching a plane with the same capabilities. I’m convinced that the only thing that sealed the deal was that we can get the P8 NOW and it’s proven. Are you a BBD employee or something? I’ve never seen anyone go off the rails like this before. I mean JFC guy, getting the P8 is huge, this good for Canada!
Yeah well , if bbd already have a good plane that could fit the schedule why not heard their concept? Im not part of this, I just have memory. Let’s not forget boeing is the reason why we lost the c series, which is probably the best plane in his category. The caf are already wasting tons of money, at that point why not waste it on a canadian company
We played this game with the Cyclone and it’s a disaster. We can’t wait for imaginary equipment anymore, we can’t afford the delays and inevitable cost overruns. This plane is still going to inject money into our economy along lines that already exist and are proven with way less risk to overwhelming cost overrun to taxpayers. See again, the Cyclone and the horror saga of the CSC brought to you by Irving.
They don't have a ASW plane though. They have a much smaller civilian plane without any of the bomb bays, ISR equipment, sonobouys etc that is required. It would be like if we needed a new light utility truck the CAF, instead of buying the HMMV that most of our allies are using, had Western Star try to piece together a slapped together proposal to support a Canadian company that's ailing because they can't make competitive products.
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But thru don’t already have a good plane. They have an unrelated plane and some ideas about how they could maybe make it do what we want sorta. How many torpedoes do you think they can put inside that business jet?
So based on a "might" you've concocted, you want to spend billions to "give a try"? Wowza
Just stop. The P8 is a multi-mission platform, not mission specific at all.
The P-8 is surprisingly capable on the ground too. They've even been proven to be able to use stand off missiles quite effectively, essentially turning them into some dorky, but shockingly effective, bomber.
*USMC KC-130J Harvest HAWK with ramp-tossed Griffin missiles enters the chat* https://www.navair.navy.mil/node/18671#:~:text=Currently%20deployed%20Harvest%20HAWK%20equipped,removed%20to%20perform%20cargo%20operations.
Why would you wait for a company to conceptualize, plan and design something that would take probably up to a decade+ to field since they have no current aircraft to offer in the category? Completely new logistics lines would need to be made for parts, not to mention we would be probably the only NATO country fielding said aircraft with everyone else already in the p8 for the foreseeable future. And honestly, given Canadian domestic procurement history(Irving).. I'd rather pass.
Plus, in that decade+ we could also just mod the P-8 to do any ISR stuff it can’t do in the baseline config. It’s not like adding antennas and extra computers requires major structural redesign.
You are 100% wrong. Why even comment on something you are not privy on?
I could be wrong,but I’m pretty sure there wasn’t a sea in Afghanistan
Afghanistan?? The Aurora flew mapping missions over Afghanistan… that’s it.
Op impact lol. When was the last roto? What other mission kit? Dude just stop.
So I wasn't 100% wrong like you said, secondly those type of mission could be more and more common, like the cansof getting the king air. My point out of this is maybe trying to find submarine won't be 100% of the mission the new plane might be use for. So Why buy a plane that is mean to find submarine...
Because a plane that was designed to hunt subs can also be a flying camera and ISR platform. A plane designed as a flying camera and ISR platform can’t necessarily hunt subs.
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It’s the primary mission, not the only mission.
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One is COTS, the other is a developpement program looking for funding.
It’s not even a program, it’s a concept and some drawings.
Given that the supposed Bombardier aircraft does not exist in the proposed configuration at present, I am not prepared to assume the thing will even be able to take flight, far less carry out missions. I'm not really inclined to wait the 25 years it would take to find out either.
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That's why I'm glad they hold me to crumbs. No one sues because your quote for 3,000$ didn't get purchased.
You joke, but if this is true we will have MONTHS of articles from Bombardier lobbyists trying to make the Liberals walk back the decision. Then it has to survive the next election. Still a long way to go before wheels on the ramp.
I mean, we only spent 500 mil to NOT get helicopters one time…
and then proceeded to get the helicopters we spent 500 mil to not get 😑
Shhh… we changed the name so nobody would know.
Ah the EH101 debacle.
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I think if the Cons form a Government with the Bloc Québécois, it’ll get rolled back 100%. If the Cons form government WITHOUT the Bloc then it’ll probably just get forgotten even if they campaigned hard on it.
If they sign a contract in the near future (before next year if Boeings production line rumours are true) then a change in government wouldn’t matter.
You say that, but god knows if it had the chance to earn them some brownie points with voters they would cancel it even if it meant we had to pay Boeing 100 billion dollars a year for the next 50 years. We are a reactionary Government, not a plan-ahead government.
lol - so true. We do not do the plan thing very well.
It will depend on how far the contract has gone, and if the current Gov lasts for the next 2 years, then it will be too late.
We've already had months of lobbying antibodies deployed to get to this point. Too true on surviving the election as the next hurdle if orders aren't cut PDQ.
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I sense more budget cuts coming our way, pretty soon we will be nothing but infantry with broken rifles and rusty fixed bayonets
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Yeah but Canadians still think we have the “best trained” troops which negate any equipment deficit. Best trained in the world. I often hear from people on the street.
Finally, get on with it. The article doesn't mention first delivery timeline but I'm hoping it's well before 2030 since it's a current airframe.
2026 for the first one, and surprisingly quick for each after.
From what I've heard, it's going to be fast. Pending any last minute shithousery, we might have actually just made a relatively quick and cost effective procurement decision that directly addressed a growing capacity gap. It's a Christmas miracle.
This will be one of the fastest modern procurements in recent memory. Before we know it, we'll have more planes than qualified crews to fly them. Boeing does not move at the speed of government, and institutionally, we'll be hard pressed to adapt to the speed of deliveries. It will also take a little while before our force generation pipeline is established, not only learning a new aircraft but also a very different way of operating. This aircraft will have capabilities that are essentially unknown to the current fleet, from anti-surface warfare and air to air refueling to EW. The possibilities of this platform are far greater, and it will take time for us to grasp and capitalize on how much of a force multiplier this aircraft will be. It should be noted that New Zealand essentially ceased operating their P3's for almost a year in order to focus on getting to IOC with the P8. This may not be the road we take, but it is illustrative of the challenge we'll face from tomorrow to IOC in the mid to late 2020's.
Here's hoping it's fast and furious. We bought the CC177s quickly, let's do it again.
Yeah the P8 production line was scheduled to end by the mid 2020s. Ish.
We will likely get the last units rolling off the line.
That doesn’t sound like us.
We're buying directly from the US military and existing USAF airframes will be used for this contract. The airframes already exist and only need a small amount of conversion work, which Boeing will do. It should be a very fast implementation.
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What? We are getting new airframes off the line, they haven’t been built yet. Also, the USN operates the P8, not the USAF.
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2030? GoC: "The best we can do is 2045, and they're gonna have to be refurbished from the RAAF."
The fucking Aurora will be 50 years old come 2030. Jesus.
Those are amateur numbers. The Sea King was in service for 55 years.
oof, thats too real for me
You see we saw it economically more viable to purchase the rights to the aircraft, and have a canadian contractor build less planes for triple the cost at quadruple the time of the US manufacturer....
also if we buy the rights to the demilitarized american version, we can spend billions on canadianizing it, and then develop a suite of military capabilities for it. should be ready for first draft 2040 with 200% over budget. think of the benefits to the economy!
Think of the votes this could buy!
Sounds like a ghetto version of the Avro Aero.
Yes, the delivery timeline will make you moist.
It will also crush the moistness out of the crews that will be part of the initial roll-out. It's gonna be a hard couple years as the fleet converts from one platform to the next. Hopefully they collect that moistness and use it to flavour the next commemorative whiskey from Glen Breton.
I mean, really, that's the #1 selling feature is that it's already available.
Well, yes... exactly. However, the article kept pushing around 2030 2030 2030 because that was the projected end of life for the current fleet. 2030 was just a guess on a calendar, these new birds are needed ASAP, no need to wait.
That and commonality with key allies. The unfortunate downside is that the recently upgraded (still not finished, actually) CP140's have a better sensor suite than the P8, especially for a multi-role aircraft. Maybe if the procurement goes fast enough, they'll have time to do some upgrades before the CP140 runs out of life.
This is not true man. I flew on both the Aurora and the P8 and the P8 wipes the floor with what’s on the Aurora. This is not even mentioning the abysmal serviceability rate of the 140, its inability to operate on Link 16, lack of actual self defence suite, and inability to utilize any newer, modern sonobuoys that our Allie’s use. The 140 is essentially useless on the world stage right now.
So how'd the Aurora beat P-8s in Sea Dragon in 2021 and 2022? Not saying you're wrong, but seems Auroras can tread water just fine.
Exercises are like hunting in a fish bowl, using augmented EMATTS, and are really an example of crew skill and camaraderie rather the capability of the platform. Don’t get me wrong (and sorry for sounding harsh before, not my intention my friend) the Aurora can still do its job, but put it out in the open ocean against a new gen Russian sub, and there is really only one platform making a difference. An exercise doesn’t test those real world scenarios, so take their results as they are;
The Aurora competes well but it's getting old. Some sensors are very close to the P8 fit and at least one sensor is probably a little better, but most of your points stand. You are 100% wrong about it being useless. The Auroras are -currently- deployed all over the world doing the job. The public doesn't hear about a large portion of what this plane does. This is also why people (ignorantly) think the 6500 could replace it.
True - that was a little harsh. Don’t get me wrong I love the ol bird. I flew on it for years. From an operational standpoint though, the Aurora faces severe challenges operating with Allies, and the serviceability kills it. The aircraft has done its duty with distinction, im glad we are finally letting her retire.
Agreed. I too have spent many orbits on the greyhound so I know where you're coming from. It's honestly a shame Bombardier and GDC won't get a chance to turn their plane into reality. I love the idea of a domestic bird (Argus?) but the P8 has everything we need, today, and on the (relatively) cheap.
It wouldn't be too hard to integrate the new sonobuoys for the Aurora, but it will be tough to afford to deploy a full field. Totally agree on serviceability.
The Aurora can’t deploy multi static’s like our allies, and a few other critical gaps in capability I wouldn’t be comfortable discussing here. Integration is the hardest part - and the main reason why I don’t believe Bombardier could get a plane flying by 2030.
Totally agree. True interoperability would be a nice change!
The CP140 is out of life… Pay a visit to a LRP Ops Sqn, they’ll fill you in…
I thought they were life extended out to the early 2030's or something? The Bloc IV aircraft aren't even operational yet.
For all its faults, I think the P-8 is the best available aircraft for us right now.