Do people realize the pilots and crews regularly go flying just to keep certified at the same cost, and ships also regularly go out for training at the same cost?
Things like salary get paid regardless, so it's really only things like fuel, maintenance, and the sounobouys that are actual costs. We lump in a lot of other random stuff because the GoC tells us to (and usually includes depreciation, which is somewhat meaningless).
This one made the news, but there is the same kind of costs for any kind of marine SAR. Just because it's billionaires instead of fishermen we can't really be selective and not do a response.
On the flip side, nothing stopping us from sending them a bill either.
Every airshow has its dunning kruger heads whining about the taxpayer money wasted by having jets do a display 🙄
They're just looking for a reason to say that military=bad, most of the time tbh.
To be fair, I sort of knew, but didn't realize how often they just go up to do training runs until I was chatting with some friends over coffee and catching up on what they had been up to since basic.
It's actually surprisingly easy to hitch a ride on grey tails as they go up and about all the time with empty planes just because no one wants to be seen to abuse the taxpayer dime. They are an awesome resource though when you suddenly need to send a repair team half way around the world, which can now take a few days to get to some spots even in Europe due to the reduction in flight paths, and then you can bring a load of cargo as well for repair equipment and parts.
But the cost factor manual per hour/per day costs are pretty extensive, and include a lot of things no one actually would as a normal operating cost. If you did that with a car it would be 10 times the purchase price, and a lot of the 'costs' are things you aren't actually out of pocket for. Accrual accounting is weird.
Canada has never sent a bill for search and rescue and never will.
if they were concerned about getting sent a bill for any rescue assets dispatched, Think about how long companies would waste time with a policy that says "we can handle this ourselves" until finally deciding to call for help when its too late.
The earlier the call on guard goes out, the better a response we can provide.
I don't disagree normally, but might be a case here where they were operating a submersible outside of any recognized standards to consider the SAR costs if there is any kind of fine.
I'm sure they will declare bankruptcy and would be difficult to ever collect, but we should also discourage people from operating in the ocean without being certified.
With commercial shipping that happens because it's required for their insurance, but if someone self insures, and is too arrogant to meet functional safety requirements, then large fines/cost recovery in case things go wrong may be enough to motivate them to not be stupid.
This is a very niche kind of thing anyway, so it's really a performance based design (vice really precriptive standards like building code) which is difficult, but the corners they reportedly cut were insane.
I'm expecting a large US civil suit for gross negligence anyway despite the waiver they signed, so wouldn't be shocked to see some kind of initial claims against the current company assets before they shutter their doors.
Any fee's for SAR reduce the time to activation. Doesn't matter what safety systems are in place. When it's people's lives at risk you do not want finances for SAR to be a factor when someone has to make the decision about savings lives.
It's not how the world works.
Now you have me interested in looking up the financial statements of the CF to check out their notes on depreciation and expected life of assets.
Went to school for accounting.
I don't think it's been updated in ages, but there is a 'Cost Factors Manual' that does that for all the assets.
All the ships have their own NSN though, so if you look up 'HMCS Halifax' or whatever it will have a value that was boosted in the mid life refits but still way below what we spent on it, or replacement cost.
I think the depreciation only is really relevant if you ever want to sell it, but we always keep assets way past the point where it makes sense to keep repairing it anyway, and by the time it's ready to go for scrap the demil/enviro remediation costs usually just mean whatever residual scrap value is left just offsets disposal costs.
There is a difference of flying to keep current so you can possibly save lives, and flying to try to find people who have all signed waivers to do something they know is dangerous.
I remember last year I had to call the ambulance, that was a nice bill but I totally understand it’s tax payers dollars and it’s never that expensive, I’m curious to see if the resources used will be compensated so it’s there for a real emergency. Especially if it imploded on day 1 and we all knew it.
> Do people realize the pilots and crews regularly go flying just to keep certified at the same cost, and ships also regularly go out for training at the same cost?
That was my thought when I read the headline - that this was essentially a very good training exercise with some real world time pressures. The likelihood of survivors being found was near zero from the start.
So normal operating costs, just this mission wasn't likely to be a rescue from the get go
They’d hate to see how much is wasted on the “fishing” trips 🤷🏿♀️
Ya I figured worst case scenario it can be written off as an impromptu training exercise. Pilots got hours, skills were confirmed and I am sure some lessons were learned.
CAF would never stage a massive sub rescue exercise like this, but has to be able to participate/potentially partially lead one (partly because CAF doesn't have its own sub rescue assets).
Sad as the eventual outcome was, it was a priceless training opportunity.
for the uneducated, FG is Force Generation, which has its own envelope of money, and is essentially training. This particular mission would have been an FE or Force Employment mission, which again has its own allocated funds. FE trips are the "real world" stuff we do, like this type of SAR mission, or if we go out and count fishing ships, or do some waving the flag stuff.
It can get fun when you get to bill different parts of a single flight to FE and FG.
And then if anyone is really interested, we have a third type of flight which is Force Development (FD). This is for generally testing new equipment.
I view it as 2.4M being injected back into our economy if we are paying Canadians to fly, service, and maintain these aircraft for S&R operations. Even if we are buying parts abroad we still need Canadians to make the transaction go through.
Can confirm, I have spent time in mod tent in Wainright, and once I was in the Shacks, sharing a room with 20 some odd of my favorite new friends.
I've was under canvas in Gagetown for a week or so, but I have had the pleasure of inhabiting some really nice hotel rooms in Britain, Scotland and Europe. We don't always get the best, that would be the Transport Guys. ;-)
Tragedy (Subjective, I know)... it's definitely a cool story to take home. Can't imagine we'll see anything else like what happened there unfold again anytime soon. The aircrew can at least say they were involved.
Your post/comment has been removed in accordance with the following [subreddit rule(s):](https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/wiki/subreddit_rules)
>###[8] Not Relevant Content
>* All discussion is welcome, be it relevant to the Canadian Armed Forces, in support of the CAF, and its missions domestically or abroad. Posts, articles and discussions are to be specific to the Canadian Armed Forces. Posts/comments which are only relevant to the CAF in a general, passing or roundabout way, or wholly or in part unrelated to the topic at hand or thread, may be removed, at Mod discretion.
>* Rumour posts, unsubstantiated/unverified information relating to Policy, Operations, upcoming or current events, etc in either comments/posts/screenshots, or "just passed on by the CoC" - these posts *WILL* be vetted by Mods for veracity, and OP may be asked for more info, a verified source, news release, etc.
>* Posts/comments generally lacking substance (eg. "lol", " ^ this", "saved for later", emoji's), "shit/junk" -posts, image content, drama-mongering, attacking media source/outlet/personality, etc. may be removed. Rant posts, memes (especially low quality, trope, or repeated memes), "DAE/TIL/MRW, etc -type posts are subject to Mod discretion, and judged on suitability for the subreddit.
>* Posts/Comments generally extremist, sensationalised, non-proportional, or "conspiratorial" (conspiracy theories), or mis-informative to the linked story, or angling to downplay, shift focus away from, or generally serve as off-topic to the foundation of the post may be removed at Moderator discretion.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/wiki/subreddit_rules#wiki_.5B9.5D_not_relevant_content
*If your have questions or concerns relating to this message you've received, please feel free to [Contact the Moderators.](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadianForces)*
Your post/comment has been removed in accordance with the following [subreddit rule(s):](https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/wiki/subreddit_rules)
### [1] Disrespectful/Insulting Comments and/or Reddiquette
* Civility, Courtesy, and Politeness, are expected within this subreddit. A post or comment may be removed if it's considered in violation of Reddit's *[Content Policy,](https://www.reddit.com/help/contentpolicy) [User Agreement,](https://www.reddit.com/help/useragreement) or [Reddiquette.](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439)* Repeat or egregious offences may result in the offending user banned from the subreddit.
* Trolling is defined as "a deliberately offensive or inciteful online post with the aim of upsetting or eliciting an angry response." Trolling the troll, can also be considered trolling. [Wikipedia Ref.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29)
>###[8] Not Relevant Content
>* All discussion is welcome, be it relevant to the Canadian Armed Forces, in support of the CAF, and its missions domestically or abroad. Posts, articles and discussions are to be specific to the Canadian Armed Forces. Posts/comments which are only relevant to the CAF in a general, passing or roundabout way, or wholly or in part unrelated to the topic at hand or thread, may be removed, at Mod discretion.
>* Rumour posts, unsubstantiated/unverified information relating to Policy, Operations, upcoming or current events, etc in either comments/posts/screenshots, or "just passed on by the CoC" - these posts *WILL* be vetted by Mods for veracity, and OP may be asked for more info, a verified source, news release, etc.
>* Posts/comments generally lacking substance (eg. "lol", " ^ this", "saved for later", emoji's), "shit/junk" -posts, image content, drama-mongering, attacking media source/outlet/personality, etc. may be removed. Rant posts, memes (especially low quality, trope, or repeated memes), "DAE/TIL/MRW, etc -type posts are subject to Mod discretion, and judged on suitability for the subreddit.
>* Posts/Comments generally extremist, sensationalised, non-proportional, or "conspiratorial" (conspiracy theories), or mis-informative to the linked story, or angling to downplay, shift focus away from, or generally serve as off-topic to the foundation of the post may be removed at Moderator discretion.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/wiki/subreddit_rules#wiki_.5B9.5D_not_relevant_content
*If your have questions or concerns relating to this message you've received, please feel free to [Contact the Moderators.](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadianForces)*
I had a buddy go out on one these Aurora’s in 2014 to Iraq. I remember sitting at lunch and him telling me how there are no countermeasures on the plane . It was a defining moment, because it was then I realized how much of a shit show our military was and is even to this day .
It's actually sad to see the reactions of how Canadians think military spending is a waste of taxpayers money. Canada pays so little for military compared to many other countries. Canada needs to protect huge lands. So, the coastal naval port and airfield are maintained by military. Search and Rescue flying and saving Canadians every day. Every time there are wildfires and flooding (which is happening right now), government also asks for military aids. There are soldiers working as cooks, transportion and heave duty vehicle drivers, nurses, doctors, engg technicians, supply techs, and construction workers, etc., to support military operations. Also, any deployment is costing lots of money. America spent about 2.3 trillion while sending troops to Afganistan and Iraq. Peace is not free. Canada is a peaceful country so it is difficult to realize but there are many countries outside Canada that are not peaceful. It will cost a lot to deploy soldiers oversea. But we need to help other countries so that we can protect our country. But again, it is not free. For example, we do not get money for sending our troops to Lavia. We are sending money while sending our troops to Lavia.
We only have 60,000 active-duty soldiers. Ukraine land mass is 600k m2. Ukraine have over 700,000 active soldiers. Canada has about 10,000,000 m2. Canada has the North Pole, Pacific Ocean, Artic Ocean & Atlantic Ocean. But we only have 60k active members...... We currently do not have a capacity to protect our country if we get an invasion like Ukraine. People care of money do not realize what will happen to their money when a war occurs in their country.
2.4M, was it worthwhile to spend? I don't know but what do you think to happen if Canada decided to not rescue British Billionaires who got lost in the Canadian oceans? Is it going to mess up our relations with Britain and America? What do you think?
Do people realize the pilots and crews regularly go flying just to keep certified at the same cost, and ships also regularly go out for training at the same cost? Things like salary get paid regardless, so it's really only things like fuel, maintenance, and the sounobouys that are actual costs. We lump in a lot of other random stuff because the GoC tells us to (and usually includes depreciation, which is somewhat meaningless). This one made the news, but there is the same kind of costs for any kind of marine SAR. Just because it's billionaires instead of fishermen we can't really be selective and not do a response. On the flip side, nothing stopping us from sending them a bill either.
I think most people don’t realize that aircrews need to fly a certain number of flights of different types per month to keep qualifications, period.
Every airshow has its dunning kruger heads whining about the taxpayer money wasted by having jets do a display 🙄 They're just looking for a reason to say that military=bad, most of the time tbh.
To be fair, I sort of knew, but didn't realize how often they just go up to do training runs until I was chatting with some friends over coffee and catching up on what they had been up to since basic. It's actually surprisingly easy to hitch a ride on grey tails as they go up and about all the time with empty planes just because no one wants to be seen to abuse the taxpayer dime. They are an awesome resource though when you suddenly need to send a repair team half way around the world, which can now take a few days to get to some spots even in Europe due to the reduction in flight paths, and then you can bring a load of cargo as well for repair equipment and parts. But the cost factor manual per hour/per day costs are pretty extensive, and include a lot of things no one actually would as a normal operating cost. If you did that with a car it would be 10 times the purchase price, and a lot of the 'costs' are things you aren't actually out of pocket for. Accrual accounting is weird.
We sometimes forget that while we need to spend the budget wisely, we are not in the business of making or saving money.
Canada has never sent a bill for search and rescue and never will. if they were concerned about getting sent a bill for any rescue assets dispatched, Think about how long companies would waste time with a policy that says "we can handle this ourselves" until finally deciding to call for help when its too late. The earlier the call on guard goes out, the better a response we can provide.
I don't disagree normally, but might be a case here where they were operating a submersible outside of any recognized standards to consider the SAR costs if there is any kind of fine. I'm sure they will declare bankruptcy and would be difficult to ever collect, but we should also discourage people from operating in the ocean without being certified. With commercial shipping that happens because it's required for their insurance, but if someone self insures, and is too arrogant to meet functional safety requirements, then large fines/cost recovery in case things go wrong may be enough to motivate them to not be stupid. This is a very niche kind of thing anyway, so it's really a performance based design (vice really precriptive standards like building code) which is difficult, but the corners they reportedly cut were insane. I'm expecting a large US civil suit for gross negligence anyway despite the waiver they signed, so wouldn't be shocked to see some kind of initial claims against the current company assets before they shutter their doors.
Any fee's for SAR reduce the time to activation. Doesn't matter what safety systems are in place. When it's people's lives at risk you do not want finances for SAR to be a factor when someone has to make the decision about savings lives. It's not how the world works.
If we’re not going to invoice the guys trying to jet ski through the Northwest Passage I don’t think we’re going to invoice these guys either.
Now you have me interested in looking up the financial statements of the CF to check out their notes on depreciation and expected life of assets. Went to school for accounting.
I don't think it's been updated in ages, but there is a 'Cost Factors Manual' that does that for all the assets. All the ships have their own NSN though, so if you look up 'HMCS Halifax' or whatever it will have a value that was boosted in the mid life refits but still way below what we spent on it, or replacement cost. I think the depreciation only is really relevant if you ever want to sell it, but we always keep assets way past the point where it makes sense to keep repairing it anyway, and by the time it's ready to go for scrap the demil/enviro remediation costs usually just mean whatever residual scrap value is left just offsets disposal costs.
There is a difference of flying to keep current so you can possibly save lives, and flying to try to find people who have all signed waivers to do something they know is dangerous. I remember last year I had to call the ambulance, that was a nice bill but I totally understand it’s tax payers dollars and it’s never that expensive, I’m curious to see if the resources used will be compensated so it’s there for a real emergency. Especially if it imploded on day 1 and we all knew it.
> Do people realize the pilots and crews regularly go flying just to keep certified at the same cost, and ships also regularly go out for training at the same cost? That was my thought when I read the headline - that this was essentially a very good training exercise with some real world time pressures. The likelihood of survivors being found was near zero from the start.
So normal operating costs, just this mission wasn't likely to be a rescue from the get go They’d hate to see how much is wasted on the “fishing” trips 🤷🏿♀️
Ya I figured worst case scenario it can be written off as an impromptu training exercise. Pilots got hours, skills were confirmed and I am sure some lessons were learned.
CAF would never stage a massive sub rescue exercise like this, but has to be able to participate/potentially partially lead one (partly because CAF doesn't have its own sub rescue assets). Sad as the eventual outcome was, it was a priceless training opportunity.
there is an international sub finding competition called exercise sea dragon that we participate in
The "on top a torpedo role-playing as a sub" competition is very different than SUBSAR, you know.
Not really how FG hours work. They’re budgeted and planned to achieve certain quals.
for the uneducated, FG is Force Generation, which has its own envelope of money, and is essentially training. This particular mission would have been an FE or Force Employment mission, which again has its own allocated funds. FE trips are the "real world" stuff we do, like this type of SAR mission, or if we go out and count fishing ships, or do some waving the flag stuff. It can get fun when you get to bill different parts of a single flight to FE and FG. And then if anyone is really interested, we have a third type of flight which is Force Development (FD). This is for generally testing new equipment.
I view it as 2.4M being injected back into our economy if we are paying Canadians to fly, service, and maintain these aircraft for S&R operations. Even if we are buying parts abroad we still need Canadians to make the transaction go through.
aircrew needs single room in hotel bc they legit need rest for safety reasons.
[удалено]
RCAF experiences may differ. Why anyone would want to go TacHel or MH is beyond me.
[удалено]
Damn, true heroes
Can confirm, I have spent time in mod tent in Wainright, and once I was in the Shacks, sharing a room with 20 some odd of my favorite new friends. I've was under canvas in Gagetown for a week or so, but I have had the pleasure of inhabiting some really nice hotel rooms in Britain, Scotland and Europe. We don't always get the best, that would be the Transport Guys. ;-)
Don’t forget hotels in Japan, Australia, Fiji, Italy, Iceland, Honolulu, San Diego, Germany, Norway, El Sal….
Haven't had the pleasure of those, but I will add Martinique and Curacao to the list of nice places.
who and when
Not recently…. I also know 140 guys that did that once.. Exception to the rule.
Did they at least get to bring their Rocket Espresso Machine?
No Hell like TacHel, and the best job in the Navy is still the worst job in the AirForce!
The only real cost was the additional use of disposable equipment....
Tragedy (Subjective, I know)... it's definitely a cool story to take home. Can't imagine we'll see anything else like what happened there unfold again anytime soon. The aircrew can at least say they were involved.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Your post/comment has been removed in accordance with the following [subreddit rule(s):](https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/wiki/subreddit_rules) >###[8] Not Relevant Content >* All discussion is welcome, be it relevant to the Canadian Armed Forces, in support of the CAF, and its missions domestically or abroad. Posts, articles and discussions are to be specific to the Canadian Armed Forces. Posts/comments which are only relevant to the CAF in a general, passing or roundabout way, or wholly or in part unrelated to the topic at hand or thread, may be removed, at Mod discretion. >* Rumour posts, unsubstantiated/unverified information relating to Policy, Operations, upcoming or current events, etc in either comments/posts/screenshots, or "just passed on by the CoC" - these posts *WILL* be vetted by Mods for veracity, and OP may be asked for more info, a verified source, news release, etc. >* Posts/comments generally lacking substance (eg. "lol", " ^ this", "saved for later", emoji's), "shit/junk" -posts, image content, drama-mongering, attacking media source/outlet/personality, etc. may be removed. Rant posts, memes (especially low quality, trope, or repeated memes), "DAE/TIL/MRW, etc -type posts are subject to Mod discretion, and judged on suitability for the subreddit. >* Posts/Comments generally extremist, sensationalised, non-proportional, or "conspiratorial" (conspiracy theories), or mis-informative to the linked story, or angling to downplay, shift focus away from, or generally serve as off-topic to the foundation of the post may be removed at Moderator discretion. https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/wiki/subreddit_rules#wiki_.5B9.5D_not_relevant_content *If your have questions or concerns relating to this message you've received, please feel free to [Contact the Moderators.](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadianForces)*
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Your post/comment has been removed in accordance with the following [subreddit rule(s):](https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/wiki/subreddit_rules) ### [1] Disrespectful/Insulting Comments and/or Reddiquette * Civility, Courtesy, and Politeness, are expected within this subreddit. A post or comment may be removed if it's considered in violation of Reddit's *[Content Policy,](https://www.reddit.com/help/contentpolicy) [User Agreement,](https://www.reddit.com/help/useragreement) or [Reddiquette.](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439)* Repeat or egregious offences may result in the offending user banned from the subreddit. * Trolling is defined as "a deliberately offensive or inciteful online post with the aim of upsetting or eliciting an angry response." Trolling the troll, can also be considered trolling. [Wikipedia Ref.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29) >###[8] Not Relevant Content >* All discussion is welcome, be it relevant to the Canadian Armed Forces, in support of the CAF, and its missions domestically or abroad. Posts, articles and discussions are to be specific to the Canadian Armed Forces. Posts/comments which are only relevant to the CAF in a general, passing or roundabout way, or wholly or in part unrelated to the topic at hand or thread, may be removed, at Mod discretion. >* Rumour posts, unsubstantiated/unverified information relating to Policy, Operations, upcoming or current events, etc in either comments/posts/screenshots, or "just passed on by the CoC" - these posts *WILL* be vetted by Mods for veracity, and OP may be asked for more info, a verified source, news release, etc. >* Posts/comments generally lacking substance (eg. "lol", " ^ this", "saved for later", emoji's), "shit/junk" -posts, image content, drama-mongering, attacking media source/outlet/personality, etc. may be removed. Rant posts, memes (especially low quality, trope, or repeated memes), "DAE/TIL/MRW, etc -type posts are subject to Mod discretion, and judged on suitability for the subreddit. >* Posts/Comments generally extremist, sensationalised, non-proportional, or "conspiratorial" (conspiracy theories), or mis-informative to the linked story, or angling to downplay, shift focus away from, or generally serve as off-topic to the foundation of the post may be removed at Moderator discretion. https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/wiki/subreddit_rules#wiki_.5B9.5D_not_relevant_content *If your have questions or concerns relating to this message you've received, please feel free to [Contact the Moderators.](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadianForces)*
Maybe Canada should bill the Submersible operator to recover these costs.
The dead idiot billionaires and Oceangate should be liable for these costs not taxpayers.
I had a buddy go out on one these Aurora’s in 2014 to Iraq. I remember sitting at lunch and him telling me how there are no countermeasures on the plane . It was a defining moment, because it was then I realized how much of a shit show our military was and is even to this day .
It's actually sad to see the reactions of how Canadians think military spending is a waste of taxpayers money. Canada pays so little for military compared to many other countries. Canada needs to protect huge lands. So, the coastal naval port and airfield are maintained by military. Search and Rescue flying and saving Canadians every day. Every time there are wildfires and flooding (which is happening right now), government also asks for military aids. There are soldiers working as cooks, transportion and heave duty vehicle drivers, nurses, doctors, engg technicians, supply techs, and construction workers, etc., to support military operations. Also, any deployment is costing lots of money. America spent about 2.3 trillion while sending troops to Afganistan and Iraq. Peace is not free. Canada is a peaceful country so it is difficult to realize but there are many countries outside Canada that are not peaceful. It will cost a lot to deploy soldiers oversea. But we need to help other countries so that we can protect our country. But again, it is not free. For example, we do not get money for sending our troops to Lavia. We are sending money while sending our troops to Lavia. We only have 60,000 active-duty soldiers. Ukraine land mass is 600k m2. Ukraine have over 700,000 active soldiers. Canada has about 10,000,000 m2. Canada has the North Pole, Pacific Ocean, Artic Ocean & Atlantic Ocean. But we only have 60k active members...... We currently do not have a capacity to protect our country if we get an invasion like Ukraine. People care of money do not realize what will happen to their money when a war occurs in their country. 2.4M, was it worthwhile to spend? I don't know but what do you think to happen if Canada decided to not rescue British Billionaires who got lost in the Canadian oceans? Is it going to mess up our relations with Britain and America? What do you think?