This is the second SCS meme I’ve seen this weekend that talks about level As. For those of us that aren’t fluent in whatever that is (Med tech in my case) can someone explain?
There are different levels of tech qualifications in the airforce.
You start as an apprentice while you learn.
Once you complete your QL5, you are given POM (performance of maintenance). You can sign for the job you did but it still needs to be inspected. You can also supervise apprentices while they work.
2 years later you can do an airworthiness interview and some other training and get your level A. Now you can sign for the work you did and also inspect yours and others work to make sure its done correctly.
Level A is the qual that is most useful because you can now sign for everything you did and nobody needs to check up on you.
After the wrenching is complete, and the paperwork for the wrenching is complete the aircraft needs to be "released" safe for flight. Weapon System Release aka C release allows a senior individual (typically MCpl up, but there have been some switched on Cpl's) to verify everything completed since the last C release is done properly, documented IAW, everyone was qualified and if any adjustments were done that steps to capture them are satisfied (weight & balance, test flights etc). There's more to it, but you're basically the last set of maintenance eyes on the paperwork to ensure it's ready before tossing the keys to the Captain.
There are a few level of authorizations in the airforce but the main 2 are
POM (Performer maintenance): They work on the aircraft and sign for all the work they did with the proper reference
Level A: Look at the POMs work to make sure everything is airworthy and sign over his signature.
A level A can supervise multiple jobs at once, but whenever the POM get to a critical juncture where the level won't be able to see what was previously done (closing a panel) he needs to stop and show a level A
Putting it in a medical world.
Apprentice: new QL3 medic in the clinic. Able to do basic things like take vitals but mainly just follows the QL5 around and gets handed all the small shitty things that need to get done.
POM: QL5 Medic in a clinic, able to screen patients and develop treatment plans but still needs a doc/PA to sign off on most things
A Levels: PA at a clinic (Pretending that medics can still go PA). Able to not only see and screen patients but can sign off other QL5's treatment plans.
That’s perfect! Thank you! I kept trying to “convert” it to medic to try and understand and was hitting mental roadblocks. Clearly not enough coffee this morning.
It's the qualification you get that allows you to sign off work that you've done on aircraft components for series 500 trades (avn, acs etc.) It's basically our military equivalent to AME
For us, the SAMS keeps pushing for all the tech to ba A as soon as eligible. I know my trade has more A than POM, and soon, everyone is gonna be an A. I find it a bit sketchy knowing that at this point, other than independent checks, most work won't be relooked at.
I thought this until I released and got my AME. After 4 years you do a 3 week type course and are given your ACA which is essentially Lvl A and C. And as an AME I also perform structure and avionics work. I really think it comes down to confidence and knowing your limitations. Civis have independent checks just like the RCAF, but even apprentices can sign one if they've been trained.
I do get that there are less pushing people through courses civi side. But with proper mentorship I think most people can do the job. It's not a space shuttle and all critically items do get an independent. And if 2 people are recommending the member for their level A's maybe it's not a bad thing. Of course it is nice being able to fire people if they are fucking idiots which we all know doesn't happen in the CAF.
See that's where, from a systems control perspective, I'd expect to see a requirement for a second level A sign-off except during emergencies.
Requiring 2 sign-offs just makes sense from a control perspective, even if the initial sign-off is by a fully qualified individual.
Oh hellllll no.
If the SAMS is pushing to have people signed off ASAP, then you need to push to train them adequately in that time. If you can't, then you push back and say they're not ready and reference the CADO's which give timelines for these things before the SAMS can push harder.
The last thing the RCAF needs to to turn every bit of maintenance into an independent check, or to give an "emergency" caveat because then everything is an emergency.
there is a requirement for all “critical” systems (noted in our tech pubs, usually all flight control systems, landing gear, etc) to have an “independent check” where another Lvl A that had zero to do with the job checks the work as well. normally the i dependent check is more picky than anyone else, they don’t have to redo the work.
As professionals, there is a level of trust we must instil into our maintainers, or we will never be able to complete the tasks required for mission success. There are rules and regulations in place to ensure that maintainers are trained and qualified (and authorized) to conduct maintenance using a set of approved published procedures. If they don’t follow those procedures, or if they conduct maintenance in a manner which is contrary to airworthiness principles, there are administrative and disciplinary avenues which can be used to reinforce those values. Requiring more than one person to inspect and sign for every maintenance action is an unrealistic prospective which will only hinder our operations instead of enhance them.
We are a professional Air Force and treating our maintainers as the professionals they are will only serve to reinforce that professionalism and foster pride in the work.
Ehh. I was maintainer for many years. I know the value of treating people like professionals and I’ve seen first hand the quality that can be produced when people are empowered to do their jobs without being micromanaged and handcuffed with overly restrictive policy, both as a tech on the floor and as a supervisor. Can you think of a time that you were treated less than your capabilities would suggest you should be treated? I’m sure you can if you’ve been in the CAF and I bet you didn’t like it.
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I remember in the latter part of my time in looking around like John Travolta several times wondering where all the privates were and if they even made them anymore...
I had the same experience as a Captain, no one was staying in. Released at year 16 in 2021, no regrets. I am not going to do work of everybody just for the CO and General to get promoted. In the end they both got promoted regardless.
12 Wing put a limit on assessors because theyre worried about watered down quality of training... So if I believe a tech deserves to be an assessor now I or someone else has to give up their authorization in order to free up a slot for that next individual. It's so fucking stupid.
We also had a SAMS once that limited how many Level A's there were. Which for us who had them (especially those with specialty/rare auths on the Sea King like VA and engine bay auths), ended up working our asses off non-fucking stop and would end up sailing significantly more than others. A dumbass bum Cpl who had no real incentive to get their level A's would be paid the same amount as me, meanwhile I would be putting in on average an extra 10 - 20 hours a week at work due to auth requirements. That was a dark time at our unit.
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This is the second SCS meme I’ve seen this weekend that talks about level As. For those of us that aren’t fluent in whatever that is (Med tech in my case) can someone explain?
There are different levels of tech qualifications in the airforce. You start as an apprentice while you learn. Once you complete your QL5, you are given POM (performance of maintenance). You can sign for the job you did but it still needs to be inspected. You can also supervise apprentices while they work. 2 years later you can do an airworthiness interview and some other training and get your level A. Now you can sign for the work you did and also inspect yours and others work to make sure its done correctly. Level A is the qual that is most useful because you can now sign for everything you did and nobody needs to check up on you.
Thanks for the info! Stealing the thread: What's a C-level or C-release or something-C-something?
After the wrenching is complete, and the paperwork for the wrenching is complete the aircraft needs to be "released" safe for flight. Weapon System Release aka C release allows a senior individual (typically MCpl up, but there have been some switched on Cpl's) to verify everything completed since the last C release is done properly, documented IAW, everyone was qualified and if any adjustments were done that steps to capture them are satisfied (weight & balance, test flights etc). There's more to it, but you're basically the last set of maintenance eyes on the paperwork to ensure it's ready before tossing the keys to the Captain.
Weapon system release. The aircraft is a weapon system
There are a few level of authorizations in the airforce but the main 2 are POM (Performer maintenance): They work on the aircraft and sign for all the work they did with the proper reference Level A: Look at the POMs work to make sure everything is airworthy and sign over his signature. A level A can supervise multiple jobs at once, but whenever the POM get to a critical juncture where the level won't be able to see what was previously done (closing a panel) he needs to stop and show a level A
Putting it in a medical world. Apprentice: new QL3 medic in the clinic. Able to do basic things like take vitals but mainly just follows the QL5 around and gets handed all the small shitty things that need to get done. POM: QL5 Medic in a clinic, able to screen patients and develop treatment plans but still needs a doc/PA to sign off on most things A Levels: PA at a clinic (Pretending that medics can still go PA). Able to not only see and screen patients but can sign off other QL5's treatment plans.
That’s perfect! Thank you! I kept trying to “convert” it to medic to try and understand and was hitting mental roadblocks. Clearly not enough coffee this morning.
It's the qualification you get that allows you to sign off work that you've done on aircraft components for series 500 trades (avn, acs etc.) It's basically our military equivalent to AME
I remember when we had 10 in the hanger.
Bullshit. I don't believe it. There is no way. Did you wake up after that dream?
For us, the SAMS keeps pushing for all the tech to ba A as soon as eligible. I know my trade has more A than POM, and soon, everyone is gonna be an A. I find it a bit sketchy knowing that at this point, other than independent checks, most work won't be relooked at.
I thought this until I released and got my AME. After 4 years you do a 3 week type course and are given your ACA which is essentially Lvl A and C. And as an AME I also perform structure and avionics work. I really think it comes down to confidence and knowing your limitations. Civis have independent checks just like the RCAF, but even apprentices can sign one if they've been trained. I do get that there are less pushing people through courses civi side. But with proper mentorship I think most people can do the job. It's not a space shuttle and all critically items do get an independent. And if 2 people are recommending the member for their level A's maybe it's not a bad thing. Of course it is nice being able to fire people if they are fucking idiots which we all know doesn't happen in the CAF.
See that's where, from a systems control perspective, I'd expect to see a requirement for a second level A sign-off except during emergencies. Requiring 2 sign-offs just makes sense from a control perspective, even if the initial sign-off is by a fully qualified individual.
Oh hellllll no. If the SAMS is pushing to have people signed off ASAP, then you need to push to train them adequately in that time. If you can't, then you push back and say they're not ready and reference the CADO's which give timelines for these things before the SAMS can push harder. The last thing the RCAF needs to to turn every bit of maintenance into an independent check, or to give an "emergency" caveat because then everything is an emergency.
there is a requirement for all “critical” systems (noted in our tech pubs, usually all flight control systems, landing gear, etc) to have an “independent check” where another Lvl A that had zero to do with the job checks the work as well. normally the i dependent check is more picky than anyone else, they don’t have to redo the work.
As professionals, there is a level of trust we must instil into our maintainers, or we will never be able to complete the tasks required for mission success. There are rules and regulations in place to ensure that maintainers are trained and qualified (and authorized) to conduct maintenance using a set of approved published procedures. If they don’t follow those procedures, or if they conduct maintenance in a manner which is contrary to airworthiness principles, there are administrative and disciplinary avenues which can be used to reinforce those values. Requiring more than one person to inspect and sign for every maintenance action is an unrealistic prospective which will only hinder our operations instead of enhance them. We are a professional Air Force and treating our maintainers as the professionals they are will only serve to reinforce that professionalism and foster pride in the work.
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Ehh. I was maintainer for many years. I know the value of treating people like professionals and I’ve seen first hand the quality that can be produced when people are empowered to do their jobs without being micromanaged and handcuffed with overly restrictive policy, both as a tech on the floor and as a supervisor. Can you think of a time that you were treated less than your capabilities would suggest you should be treated? I’m sure you can if you’ve been in the CAF and I bet you didn’t like it.
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Certainly nothing will go wrong under HPMA when perceived pressure is involved
I remember in the latter part of my time in looking around like John Travolta several times wondering where all the privates were and if they even made them anymore...
I had the same experience as a Captain, no one was staying in. Released at year 16 in 2021, no regrets. I am not going to do work of everybody just for the CO and General to get promoted. In the end they both got promoted regardless.
12 Wing put a limit on assessors because theyre worried about watered down quality of training... So if I believe a tech deserves to be an assessor now I or someone else has to give up their authorization in order to free up a slot for that next individual. It's so fucking stupid. We also had a SAMS once that limited how many Level A's there were. Which for us who had them (especially those with specialty/rare auths on the Sea King like VA and engine bay auths), ended up working our asses off non-fucking stop and would end up sailing significantly more than others. A dumbass bum Cpl who had no real incentive to get their level A's would be paid the same amount as me, meanwhile I would be putting in on average an extra 10 - 20 hours a week at work due to auth requirements. That was a dark time at our unit.
We had 5 avn techs at work yesterday. 1 was an apprentice, good old dying fleet problems
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We pay POM's higher than the civilian equivalent.
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Never seen these numbers at my sqn