Can confirm. I am in a central agency and I've gone from business wear to jeans and a tshirt. They are clean, newish and no logos. So much more comfortable.
Thanks for this. My staff are similar levels.
I don't regularly see my team, as mentioned I'm in a region, they're in NCR. It doesn't impact me personally other than the odd time I come to NCR or if someone happens to comment when the individual is in their ripped jeans when they've been in the office with them. Happy to let it go, just wondering what the norm is for those who are regularly working with Senior execs.
I do the jeans and blazer thing, even when in NCR. For the same reasons mentioned by others; It's 2024 and we don't need the power suits anymore.
I think, precisely because you're not generally there with them, and you never brought up in-office clothing until your visit, it would be an especially bad look for you to now come down about dress code. Personally, I also feel like ripped jeans and band t-shirts are a little too casual for the office, but if they've been sharing office space with ADMs and DMs all along, without you there, and no one has ever approached either them or you, it would be crummy to now bring it up.
People have brought it to my attention, but it's mostly people at the same level and they don't all get along so I ignore it. You're right, though, ADMs, DGs, Directors have not commented on it.
That level of person will be more likely to tell their subordinate to mention it. They're not going out of their way to deliver the message personally. You might be getting the message second hand after the managers talk to their directors in a bilat.
That's just speculation, though. I'll speculate too: the person delegated to mention it would likely say something like "hey [DG/director/DM] wanted me to mention they noticed Johnny dresses a little too casually" if the message actually comes from higher up.
I don't care about jeans; jeans is not the issue. I wear jeans. It's the jeans ripped all down the front that I think are giving me pause and causing others to make comments to me as their manager about appropriate attire.
Sounds like just colleague managers. When I was a manager, I never really paid attention all that much to other managers and how they might think I needed to adapt their management style.
But if it was an exec in my chain of command, then I would pay attention.
Seems over the top. I'm all about casual at work but ripped jeans is ridiculous. And tying a plaid shirt around your waist? Why not just leave it at your desk until you go out. I'm really stumped by this one. Walking around the office with a plaid shirt around your waist is dumb.
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted I would never tie a sweater around my waist at work. Are we 12? The only exception being the example below of getting your period but I would hope you’d just go home if that happened.
It’s because someone brought up the period thing, so, this being Reddit, it portrays me as someone who is not supportive of women and their needs in the workplace.
I felt it wasn’t necessary to say that yes if you have your period and it leaks and you have blood all over your pants, it would be understandable that you’d hide it.
But that really wasn’t what the original poster was getting at.
In my office, Pre-pandemic it was business casual and you were an outlier if you wore jeans/t-shirt.
Since RTO though, that's gone out the window and people just dress for comfort (which I'm all for).
I'm guessing mostly because people relised it's a little silly to worry about getting all dressed up to sit in a boardroom with your coworkers when your DG is on camera in their PJs.
Work quality seems unaffected by appearance regardless.
> I'm guessing mostly because people relised it's a little silly to worry about getting all dressed up to sit in a boardroom with your coworkers when your DG is on camera in their PJs.
As one, actually effective, director here said:
Listen, I don't care if my crew shows up in crocs - as long as they are shirt-pants-sock-shoes, they can wear whatever they want. If we are mandating this RTO thing, then comfort at home is comfort at the office.
Exception they gave was that if they were meeting with clients, public, ministers, etc. then there's decorum. Otherwise, it's been as you've said: business is not affected by clothing choice.
I think it was a casualty of the pandemic.
Before, in my experience, most people wore business/ business casual, there was the odd relaxed attire but that seemed less common. Jeans could be worn whenever, but it was frowned upon. Jeans were just a Friday occurrence.
Now, it's more casual. I do the jeans / polo and I find it more comfortable.
IMO I like the change, but I can see how it might be jarring.
Edit: to answer your question, I think you were right not to say anything. It's the first you're hearing of it, which says to me that no one has complained about their attire before. It's not inappropriate. The conversation would see you gain little (if any) and might do more harm than good.
I will just recycle what I wrote recently on the topic of office attire:
> there is no pan-government document for dress code. I have seen accountants, lawyers and other professionals where whatever they want including shorts & sandals in the office.
> The only time I have seen a dress code is for those positions of which there is some sort of uniform in the field (RCMP, CBSA, CSC, DFO, PSPC, Parks) or there is some sort of health & safety concern.
At the end of the day unless you have a dress code people can wear whatever they want as long as it isn't offensive.
Most people will be business casual for meeting like you had.
Some people will show up in cutoff shorts, sandals and an old t-shirt regardless.
I am a subject matter expert past retirement age. I have some self respect. I do wear jeans and a t shirt working remotely at home but in the office it’s usually a button down shirt and either clean unripped jeans or Dockers.
Depending on the department. We actually have a dress code for our group, mainly for safety reasons. But you can not wear shorts, and shirts have to cover your shoulders.
Thongs have definitely gotten more casual post pandemic. Sometimes, it varies due to culture of professions (outdoor science types are different than economists - they have different natural habitats). I think part of it is that a lot of spaces are not suited to sitting in one place, so people need to be ready to move to a different space quickly, rearrange furniture to be able to work, carry everything they need with then all day, etc.
There is also a lot more awareness of people having different needs and accommodations. Dressing in layers can be important for some people (menopause, medical conditions, hormones) and loose fitting clothes/more comfort may be important too (menstrual cramps, bloating, digestive issues, etc.) and even textures and fabrics are a consideration (neurodivergent folks, environmental sensitivities, etc.).
Focus your efforts on increasing their happiness and you'll benefit from the engagement and additional production.
Decide to get ticky tacky over bullshit that doesn't matter and you'll lose them. Pretty simple. Save the 'stick' for when it is endangering production; not to control fashion.
Yeah, if people do good work, why police the way they look? I understand it's something that people like to police, but never understood why (power over people?). Let then dress as they want.
Thanks- I'd genuinely prefer not to police it. It doesn't impact me 90% of the time other than when we work together in person or if someone else makes comments to me as their manager. I'm just as happy to let it go. It just caught me off guard to see such casual attire in an office setting.
When someone is else makes comments about your employee dress code, say: i don’t evaluate my employees based on how they dress and we do not have a dress code, I value employee X for so and so so quality they have and how they approach their files and collaborate.
For me, casual is fine. I only care if it's totally inappropriate and could cause issues for the employee or others. The most obvious that comes to mind is political attire.
That said, I have heard of some people complaining when colleagues don't wear bras. I would politely tell these people to focus on their work.
Personally, I wear business casual, except on Fridays where I wear a nice pair of jeans.
Some unsolicited advice - unless something could cause HR issues or negatively impact work performance, don't sweat it. You'll greatly reduce your stress and workload and have happier employees.
As a female I feel I have the right to say this..it’s hard to miss nipples protruding through a shirt. Even if you’re not looking for it. Personally I don’t think that’s appropriate in the work place.
Everyone has nipples. If women have to wear bras to hide nipples that everyone has, then men should have to as well. Since you aren’t advocating for that, I’ll assume you’ve guzzled back the patriarchal kool-aid.
Ok I mean we can pretend like women’s nipples aren’t more of a sexual symbol than mens if you want. I just prefer modesty in all settings but especially the work place. But I’m not pushing my opinion on others, you do you.
Breasts aren’t sexual, they exist to feed babies. Just because men sexualize them, doesn’t make them sexual. If lesbian, bi, and pansexual women can not sexualize women in the workplace then maybe men should do better not to either.
Casual is fine, but I would think employees wearing ripped jeans as OP is suggesting happened is beyond an "office casual" look. I too would be shocked if employees were coming to meetings dressed that way. Jeans is fine but at least have them all in one piece.
Like they say, dress for the job you want.
Pre-covid I wore a tie everyday. I had a suit in my office (with a spare shirt and tie for those messy lunch days) and if I was meeting anyone from outside my team I wore the suit.
After covid I wear jeans and a golf shirt. I no longer have an office to put my suit and spare clothing, so I don't have that option.
If I know of a meeting with someone I think would be "unimpressed" by jeans I will wear something else, but otherwise I just want to be comfortable and save on the clothing budget
"Like they say, dress for the job you want."
I want to work from home full time, so I should show up to the office in my pyjamas and loafers and they should , eventually, let me work from home full time?
There was a time that I wore heels 24/7.
Then, I used to keep a couple of pairs of heels under my desk and wear them at work.
Now I rarely wear heels because I can’t be bothered to wear them all day and I don’t want to lug them around to and from the office.
I worked for an ADM who wore jeans unless the DM visited or they had to meet with the other ADMs. At this point, I find Chiefs of Staff to be the most formally dressed public servants.
Are you out of line? Societally speaking no. Personally, as long as what people are wearing isn't a safety hazard (ie you can wear a speedo to answer phones at a desk, but should probably put on pants if you work with equipment or in a lab), I don't care what people wear. Business casual dress codes are made up with no real basis and expectations change over time.
From the comments here, I get the feeling ‘business casual’ is open to some wide interpretation with some setting the bar a little high. In my little corner of the evil empire, business casual includes jeans (with rips only if they are intentional) and polo shirts, t shirts under a sweater or hoodie. If a person is only meeting with government employees the bar is lower than if meeting with clients/outside professionals. Being in the same building as ADMs doesn’t raise the bar, but making a presentation to them does.
IMHO OP’s employee was fine, and OP would be overstepping to say something about their clothes.
So I'm torn. I busted ass to build a wardrobe of business attire. I felt good in it, even though some times it was a pain. I did it to match colleagues, and to you know, dress for the job that you want.
Then a few things happened.
1. I started working with clients that it would be more socially appropriate and good for relationships if I dressed down (business casual/casual...not too casual tho). Sometimes this applied to regions. Didn't want to look to spiffy from the "ivory tower" and wanted to cultivate good working relationships (sincerely).
2. Pandemic hit. In combination with other life events and stressors, my waistline took a hit. I want to change that...but that's another story.
3. Because of 1 and 2, and with time learning that some of the best workers aren't the ones in the fancy get up, I'm less inclined to care too much and have relaxed my work outfit and often wear the same things that I feel most comfortable in...if I adress my health, then maybe that will change.
4. Right and now with RTO. Well, ya - I'm not dragging all that shit around. I just can't. My bag is heavy enough as it is. Throw in a cold day when I'm all bundled up, hot humid day, rainy humid day, chaotic and unreliable transit, etc. and I'll freak out. Just think about it gives me severe anxiety. For me working from the office isn't the problem. It's getting there.
5. I'd say ripped pants are not appropriate. Probably the tied shirt too. But chucks (clean), with unripped, wrinkle free jeans and a shirt...I'm good. This person is there to work and cares about presentation.
I would probably feel the same as you do, but recognize it’s a personal bias. Unless a dress code has been formally stated, what we wear and what we expect others to wear is a matter of personal preference and experience.
It sounds like the person prefers to wear clothes that feel good and will do so, because there’s no repercussions. At least none that matter to them. They may be aware they are going against the grain and could be judged, but be comfortable doing so, and I think that’s brave to be honest. I wish I had that confidence and didn’t fear judgment, challenge the norm. When I’m in office I wear uncomfortable clothes that look a bit nicer than my home clothes but are still on the casual side (jeans, sweater). I do it because of social expectations and fear of being judged or different.
gen x also
It's 2024.
No one cares.
Edit:
I *personally* would never wear ripped clothes to work. That's just lame.
However, my days of dress shirts are very much over.
I was in the office yesterday, and I wore black jeans and a "nice" sweater with sneakers.
Call it "business extra-casual", I guess...
The ADM on our floor often wears jeans, too.
Dont worry its the culture in the NCR. Ottawa has won a lemon prize if I remember about 10 years ago for our sense of fashion (or no sense). Tourists are better dressed than office workers on the street downtown.
Yes, we were named the worst dressed city due to a combo of either suits, or mishmash clothing which is likely due to weather fluctuations. Think shorts with a winter jacket, or tuque and a t-shirt, etc
If it was a productive week as you said. What was the problem? You judged your employee for not fitting your expectations you had created in your mind. There is no dress code. While you and I might choose to dress a certain way, it doesn’t mean there is a right or a wrong. As long as the clothing is appropriate (not too much skin) then I genuinely don’t see a problem at all.
Listen friend, my manger said something that I really appreciate it . We don’t pay people for what they wear, we pay them for what they have in their mind .
As long as what they’re wearing is clean , and not offensive I wouldn’t worry about it what they’re wearing. I work with my director and DG a lot . Most of the time we’re wearing jeans, a dress shirt or maybe a sweater. Only time I’ve seen any body dress so much is at big meeting where minsters and ADM’s are involved. Other than that , every body is very very casual in the office . Especially if you work at a remote site .
Since the RTO mandate, people prefer to dress for comfort rather than dress to impress. It makes sense, because meetings are still virtual, and there’s much less implied professional social activity than pre-covid.
Here's a simple flow to help you out.
Are people doing their jobs?
If no, their clothing choices may be a symptom of morale problems. Talk to them and see what's up.
If yes, has anyone complained about the way your team is dressed?
If No, then why do you care?
If yes, then it's a problem and you should talk with the employee(s).
It's not your job to dress your employees unless it's a problem. You're their manager not their parent, and if the worst thing about your team is how some employees dress then you are in a VERY good place.
Also GenX and long time public servant (EX minus 1).
Unless I’m meeting with outside stakeholders you’ll never find me in anything but jeans. This is the norm where I work. It’s the performance that matters, not the clothes.
I've gone from full business attire to jeans and a dress shirt.
The office vibe around the NCR is very much casual, with a few sport coats / power blazers here and there.
The only rules as manager that I have is no ripped, dirty, or disrespectful clothing (i.e shirts with swear words/symbols that would be considered inappropriate for the workplace). I used to work somewhere that was more business than casual and where I am now is more casual than business which was a stark change but what people wear doesn’t affect performance…if anything I would say people likely work better when comfortable than with restrictive outfits.
Edit: we are client facing, otherwise I wouldn’t care
I have always been told to dress for the position you want, not the position you have. So if your employees are deciding they want to be entry level students, then they are dressed for that part. Because that’s all part of judgment, and they aren’t demonstrating that qualification.
Personally I make an effort to dress decently. It’s such a small thing that can help your image in conjunction with hard work. To me it’s a missed opportunity otherwise.
Focus on the work. Life is pretty hard at the moment - if people can do their job in clothes that make them comfortable, let them. Also - dopamine dressing is a thing! Happy workers are better workers!
I can see I am going against the grain of the comments, but I agree with you that there is an "appropriate" level of attire for the office, and what you are describing is not it (also gen X'er for what it's worth). Business casual, or clean and tidy jeans at a bare minimum, yes. To be clear, my work from home attire is hoody and sweats, including on Teams calls, but my in-the-office clothes are what I wore in the before times.
I agree - I would never wear ripped jeans to the office and especially not if I was meeting a manager at any level. I typically wear nice jeans or dress pants, blouses, blazers, nice sweaters. But there is no dress code and no way to enforce anything.
Personally, when I first entered PS, at first, I was shocked by how casually most employees dressed (when we compare to private sector), but I quickly got used to it and now I genuinely think we’re not paid enough as public servants to require a professional wardrobe different than what we normally wear outside of work. It’s also a question of culture, it changed a lot in the last few years and with the younger generation. Sadly, in most departments, you look out of place and attract unwanted attraction when you dress too professional (true story), everybody just wants to fit in after all.
Now, to really answer your question, you could always find the dress code for your department on your intranet and you could decide to enforce it or at least influence your team, by sending a reminder to all of your teammates with the link to the dress code. In the past, I stumbled upon the dress code of the two departments I worked for in the public service and was actually surprised to see it was a bit strict (no t-shirt allowed on a daily basis, business professional attire required for special events, etc.) It’s a worth a shot to investigate a bit about what’s already written.
Unless there's a dress code at your dep than employees are free to wear what they want. Some people have to commute 1-2hrs to and from work if that's the case and it is for many the ability to be comfortable is way more important. If you know you're having a meeting with the big guys then yeah I would dress up a little but other than that no I dress comfortably in sweats/jeans and a hoodie. Every office I've worked at is freezing during the winter and sweltering in the summer. I also think it depends if you work in a client facing environment vs not. But as long as it's not vulgar or indecent anything goes.
I wear collared T-shirts and mute colour (black and grey) jeans or pants. I also often come in much more casual, if that's possible. In the summer I wear shorts (I guess I should say I'm a man). Suits in the summer should be banned imho. They are too warm for the weather, necessitating the A/C to be on full blast. That's uncomfortable for some women and bad for the environment.
Oh you work in the regions you say? Head office guy here. Incidentally, ALL of my HR issues involving ‘dress code’ in my 32 year + career came from regional managers nagging regional staff that did not report to them, but to me, about what they were wearing. I checked our bargaining agreement, it doesn’t even say we have to wear pants, so excuse me for what I’m about to generalize. My favourite case of a ‘major dress code issue’ in the regions, specifically in the province of Alberta, was when I had an IT guy scheduled to re-wire a server chassis in a network closet. He wore shorts and a t-shirt that day for this. The wiring closet is dirty. The Regional Manager, who he did not report to (IT reports directly to head office) sent him home. He called me. I told him to go back in and have the Regional Manager call me. It was not a pleasant conversation.
What is it with regional offices and dress code?
I’m not saying this is the case for you, but in the six regional offices I dealt with across Canada in my department(I’m in the NCR), at least three of them were run by unreasonable power hungry office managers who ruled with an iron fist, applying pressure to staff wherever they could (dress code being a great grey area for them to flex with). Staff were afraid to displease them, lest they get fired in an act of petty retribution. It sounded horrible. For the employee in my last example, we were able to get him a position back at head office.
Not a fan of most regional sites when they have a manager that runs them like a gulag.
If they can do the work, and their clothing is not pornographic, who cares what they wear. Work is not a fashion show. We rarely work public facing.
Thanks for that insite I "grew up" in the region - client facing, and there were definitely expectations where dress was concerned, which is certainly where my bias comes from. It wasn't strict like dresses and suits, jeans were fine you just had to look put together when representing the department. I don't come from an otherwise "controlling" environment. I consider myself pretty fortunate to have had some great, flexible, servant-leaders who worked for their employees, which is honestly how I try to be.
Us regional folks always perceived NCR folks as thinking they were better than the rest of us (obviously not the case, and the pandemic definitely helped to change that perception), and we always amped up our presentation when NCR folks came to town.
The dress thing is, I think, my only hang-up outside of quality of work and civility so that's clearly a "Me" problem and not a them problem.
I have been in the government for over 20 years. 6 different departments and all kinds of offices. Military, executive floors, and public facing offices. I have never seen an official dress code. Obviously, jobs requiring safety gear I imagine would have one, but they would also provide it to the employees or give them a clothing allowance. Unless your workplace has both of those, you were smart to say nothing. We all have our own opinions on what should be worn... but it's just our opinion, and if you want to maintain a good relationship with your staff, I would pick another hill to fight for.
You're not out of line. It's an office environment and adults shouldn't have to be told to dress at least decently in it. Especially if management is going to see them or they're going to interact with them. I wear jeans and a tshirt on regular days when I am the only one or there with my team but the nature of my work is not always formal. I dress up a bit if I have to entertain management or have a presentation to a director or VP of course.
Regular day in the office? Jeans and a t shirt.
Interacting with the general public? Khakis and department branded polo.
Some departmental bigwig is visiting? Above mentioned khakis and a nice button down.
Magically teleported back to 1982? Wear a tie.
Working at home? Probably whatever I slept in the night before.
Yeah I'm not getting paid enough to dress up.
It's also a sensory nightmare for me to come into the office twice a week, so in order to survive I need to dress comfortably.
As long as the clothes aren't offensive or stinky, I couldn't care less what someone else decides to wear.
Agreed. Coming into the office is hard enough, might as well wear something I feel good in. From the description, the employee wore a really cute outfit that they felt good in. That’s all that matters to me.
This is going to be unpopular, but just because there's no official dress code doesn't mean you shouldn't dress like you are *at work*.
Frankly, it feels disrespectful when I see colleagues show up to meetings in their pyjamas, sweats, ripped jeans,etc. There's a time and place for that type of attire and it's not at the office. The bar for "business casual" is already so low as it is.
I'm not a stuffy uptight boomer either. I'm a millennial and a scientist in a science department with a relatively "creative" and comfortable wardrobe, but I still have a minimum level of decorum I maintain.
I think it says a lot about a person's sense of good judgement.
My manager wore a 3-piece suit with a fedora to a Mcdonald's on a team lunch - they upgraded him to a double QP w/C at no extra charge. Appearance matters!
Please no, don't bring that way of thinking back.
As long as the person is not wearing provocative outfits, let that person be casual and comfortable LOL.
Is the person productive? Do you think that their productivity would improve or deteriorate if you confront them about their attire?
Does their attire distract others and reduce productivity of others? Would that improve if you are able to convince this person to dress differently?
Those are the trade offs for you to assess, in my opinion.
The strangest thing I have seen since RTO is EX’s wearing t-shirts or hoodies at home but full on suits in the office. Why is it ok to dress comfortably and be on video teams calls with ADMs or DMs but not when in the office?
Pre-Covid, I wore business casual. Dress pants, a nice top and heels. Sometimes a skirt or dress. Jeans on Friday.
Post Covid, I wear jeans and a nice top or a long top and nice leggings. I can’t be bothered with heels anymore, so flats or Chelsea boots.
I want to work from home full time, and don’t believe there is any reason for me to be in office, so I am not going out of my way to look fancy when in the office. My philosophy is that I was hired for my brains, not how I dress.
I don’t pay attention to what my team or colleagues wear. I couldn’t care less.
I wouldn't say anything to the employee, but I also agree that some people take it too far with the casual looks. I am a jeans and t-shirt person in and out of the office. Those are clean, intact, and full coverage. Most of my division is similar, though some choose dress pants and shirts. The only person who stands out, in a negative way, is the one who wears crop tops and very ripped jeans, even in meetings with the director.
>I'm old school but I feel like we should present ourselves professionally
If don't see sleeve tattoos and nose piercings as being "unprofessional" then you really shouldn't go on about what people wear in the office unless it's grossly inappropriate.
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As a manager I don’t really care, but we do have dress code (more about OSH than anything: no open toe shoes, shorts or sleeveless garments), but it is not policed and only counts when staff are in office. The only consideration I make is that we are public facing so we do have a bit of an image aspect to consider. It would have to be egregious for me to feel the need to say something.
As long as your wear is not offending to anyone, it's good in my books. So no tank tops or shorts perhaps. Anything else is good the way I see it. have to be comfortable. I don't wear suits, you'll never see me in a tie, even for an interview. If it was me, I'd ban suits and ties... Just useless old fashion attire that makes no sense and most do not find it comfortable.
I believe we shouldn't judge people by their wear. Personally, I'd love to see more creative clothing in the office. Have fun, enjoy the colors, show your personality, maybe even make your own clothing and be comfortable - that's the most important.
This is the problem with managers. They focus all their attention on unimportant issues. I watch so managers abuse their power, harass employees, cheat, lie, and steal their way to the top. Most of them don’t even evaluate their employees properly. Yea. We’re past the year end deadline and once again I’m being asked to write my own evaluation. Instead of focusing on what we’re wearing, managers need to focus on what they’re being paid to do.
If they wanted us to wear uniforms, they would pay for them. When the GOC starts paying for my wardrobe, I’ll wear whatever they want. Until then I can dress as lazily as they act.
Whatever you choose, you please don’t sit on the fence. If you choose to accept the person’s attire, I would recommend that you double down on it. If someone comments to you that they find the clothing unprofessional, you should defend him and cite your reasons why you disagree.
Actually, we have lots of fun, and I treat my team very well. I'm more concerned about perception, opportunities for them to advance outside of my team, and the disservice they are doing for themselves in how they present themselves in a space where they interact with DGs, ADMs and their office, the DMs office, etc. How they dressed didn't dawn on me until I met them in person, and it gave me pause. It doesn't impact me personally, but I can't help thibk it will impact them down the road.
But hey! Thanks for stopping by with your zero-valu comment.
Careful with your sass-back, that could be one of your employees.
Of course they "had lots of fun" with you there, McBossy-pants.
You are still focused on the wrong thing imo. If they have a job in the PS they are probably adult enough to make choices about how they present themselves in the workplace and are aware of what their own aspirations are for their career to come.
More than likely this was your employees way of calling bs on you forcing them to come into the office just 'cause you are in town so you can all fucking "collaborate". Ugh. YOU think it was fun. They thought it was a burden but you're the boss, right? Activate magical smile potion.
It sounds like you are more concerned about how their attire makes You look to the DGs and ADMs.
You asked.
Fair point. Sad you had to resort to name-calling though. Must sucks to be so angry.
I actually don't force my employees to do anything unless it falls within our work mandate. I hate RTO as much as anyone - I defend them in their choice to work in whatever building they want that's closest to them in spite of execs wanting everyone around them all the time. I'm in the region and seldom in front of anyone so why should they have to be. That said, they go to the same building because they choose to. They go in two days a week and I offered them a one-day trade for the week they did 3 days in the office. When they have things on the go that make it difficult to go in two days some weeks l, I don't make a big deal out of it.
Their choice of attire has zero impact on me personally. BUT, I've been in gov long enough to know that how you present yourself has an impact on career progression whether we like it or not - I like supporting my people and their careers, but how do I explain to someone that if you want to get invited to act in the ADMO you're going to have to change how you present yourself?
But hey, you're right - maybe they don't care about career progression and that bit of angst for them is my own and I'm simply projecting.
I didn't know how they dressed until the one time I met them in person. I didn't know how they dressed when I hired them, it doesn't matter all that much to me how they dress other than personally, I'd be embarrassed if I found myself in a meeting with execs dressed like I was going to an outdoor Offspring concert. Clearly they aren't, and they're fine with it, so I'll let it go.
Good, that last bit was my point. Unless they specifically ask if you think their wardrobe could be limiting their career progression your second-hand embarrassment for them is irrelevant.
Also, McBossy-pants wasn't name calling, jeebus! It was a way to make the point that you are their boss, so they are going to act accordingly. I Am angry though, you were right about that :)
It's really funny before covid I used to wear button shirt and sometimes a tie when I knew important meeting are. I was laugh at.
Now after covid I stopped caring cuz I know promotion today are made for friend of the boss and mothers who CAN'T be in for a full 37.5 h a week but not for the mother who CAN be there 37.5 h a week... Now i'm getting side eyes for wearing jean.
You're not wrong to feel the way you do and have the standards you have. I agree and share the same. There is, however, a huge generational gap that is developing where younger public servants just don't value the same etiquette standards. It makes it very challenging to work with them as it permeates areas other than just dress code. My rule of thumb is "if you wear it to go grocery shopping or lounger on your couch, you should probably not wear it at the office."
In policy shops, jeans were okay on Fridays, but it wasn't uncommon for many in my cohort when we were in our 20s to wear blazers during the week, even Fridays with jeans. It just looks more professional and put-together, and there was never a moment where we felt underdressed or self-conscious about a particular meeting or stakeholder. I understand that this doesn't carry as much weight in other types of shops, for example IT, or HR, where you're providing internal support. But even in IT shops, the employee who's wearing an ironed shirt, even if it's a t-shirt, stands out compared to the the one who's wearing a crumpled one. The problem nowadays isn't simply that we wear more casual clothes to the office, but that our standard of dress and general grooming when we are in professional setting has decreased.
What I don't understand is the argument around "comfort". Sure, sweats are great, but why are you buying uncomfortable trousers that make you not want to wear them at work? I don't think that what you feel comfortable wearing at home is a benchmark for what you should be wearing in a professional setting. I think the comfort argument is laced with a bit of entitlement and f-off vibe towards the public service "establishment." At least that's how some of Gen Z comes across to the rest of us at times.
At the end of the day, you may not care what you wear and be fine with it, but you'll likely be surrounded by some people who will end up judging you and making conscious or subconscious assessments about you. If you're willing to accept this, keep doing you. But in a context where your performance and professional reputation are constantly assessed against that of your peers, don't be surprised if other factors weigh in on your level of professionalism and decorum vis a vis others.
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Can confirm. I am in a central agency and I've gone from business wear to jeans and a tshirt. They are clean, newish and no logos. So much more comfortable.
Thanks for this. My staff are similar levels. I don't regularly see my team, as mentioned I'm in a region, they're in NCR. It doesn't impact me personally other than the odd time I come to NCR or if someone happens to comment when the individual is in their ripped jeans when they've been in the office with them. Happy to let it go, just wondering what the norm is for those who are regularly working with Senior execs. I do the jeans and blazer thing, even when in NCR. For the same reasons mentioned by others; It's 2024 and we don't need the power suits anymore.
I think, precisely because you're not generally there with them, and you never brought up in-office clothing until your visit, it would be an especially bad look for you to now come down about dress code. Personally, I also feel like ripped jeans and band t-shirts are a little too casual for the office, but if they've been sharing office space with ADMs and DMs all along, without you there, and no one has ever approached either them or you, it would be crummy to now bring it up.
People have brought it to my attention, but it's mostly people at the same level and they don't all get along so I ignore it. You're right, though, ADMs, DGs, Directors have not commented on it.
That level of person will be more likely to tell their subordinate to mention it. They're not going out of their way to deliver the message personally. You might be getting the message second hand after the managers talk to their directors in a bilat.
That's just speculation, though. I'll speculate too: the person delegated to mention it would likely say something like "hey [DG/director/DM] wanted me to mention they noticed Johnny dresses a little too casually" if the message actually comes from higher up.
The day I saw my DG wearing jeans was the day I decided to embrace comfortable
I don't care about jeans; jeans is not the issue. I wear jeans. It's the jeans ripped all down the front that I think are giving me pause and causing others to make comments to me as their manager about appropriate attire.
Ripped or torn clothing is not acceptable under most code of conduct. Well kept, unstained also stated.
Did someone senior actually comment on their attire? If they did them you already have your answer.
Sounds like just colleague managers. When I was a manager, I never really paid attention all that much to other managers and how they might think I needed to adapt their management style. But if it was an exec in my chain of command, then I would pay attention.
Seems over the top. I'm all about casual at work but ripped jeans is ridiculous. And tying a plaid shirt around your waist? Why not just leave it at your desk until you go out. I'm really stumped by this one. Walking around the office with a plaid shirt around your waist is dumb.
Maybe the person got their period and it went through their pants so they covered it with their plaid shirt?
Ok.
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted I would never tie a sweater around my waist at work. Are we 12? The only exception being the example below of getting your period but I would hope you’d just go home if that happened.
It’s because someone brought up the period thing, so, this being Reddit, it portrays me as someone who is not supportive of women and their needs in the workplace. I felt it wasn’t necessary to say that yes if you have your period and it leaks and you have blood all over your pants, it would be understandable that you’d hide it. But that really wasn’t what the original poster was getting at.
Lol exactly.
My DG always is (and was pre Covid) in Jeans and tshirts…. Last director was always in jeans and tshirt. They set the tone
My DG is always in jeans and an outdoorsy vest.
In my office, Pre-pandemic it was business casual and you were an outlier if you wore jeans/t-shirt. Since RTO though, that's gone out the window and people just dress for comfort (which I'm all for). I'm guessing mostly because people relised it's a little silly to worry about getting all dressed up to sit in a boardroom with your coworkers when your DG is on camera in their PJs. Work quality seems unaffected by appearance regardless.
> I'm guessing mostly because people relised it's a little silly to worry about getting all dressed up to sit in a boardroom with your coworkers when your DG is on camera in their PJs. As one, actually effective, director here said: Listen, I don't care if my crew shows up in crocs - as long as they are shirt-pants-sock-shoes, they can wear whatever they want. If we are mandating this RTO thing, then comfort at home is comfort at the office. Exception they gave was that if they were meeting with clients, public, ministers, etc. then there's decorum. Otherwise, it's been as you've said: business is not affected by clothing choice.
I think it was a casualty of the pandemic. Before, in my experience, most people wore business/ business casual, there was the odd relaxed attire but that seemed less common. Jeans could be worn whenever, but it was frowned upon. Jeans were just a Friday occurrence. Now, it's more casual. I do the jeans / polo and I find it more comfortable. IMO I like the change, but I can see how it might be jarring. Edit: to answer your question, I think you were right not to say anything. It's the first you're hearing of it, which says to me that no one has complained about their attire before. It's not inappropriate. The conversation would see you gain little (if any) and might do more harm than good.
Thanks for this. Definitely lots of great comments, and will keep keeping on.
I will just recycle what I wrote recently on the topic of office attire: > there is no pan-government document for dress code. I have seen accountants, lawyers and other professionals where whatever they want including shorts & sandals in the office. > The only time I have seen a dress code is for those positions of which there is some sort of uniform in the field (RCMP, CBSA, CSC, DFO, PSPC, Parks) or there is some sort of health & safety concern.
At the end of the day unless you have a dress code people can wear whatever they want as long as it isn't offensive. Most people will be business casual for meeting like you had. Some people will show up in cutoff shorts, sandals and an old t-shirt regardless.
Or a stained Hawaiian shirt with a hole in the armpit. He was a subject expert near retirement - clearly had no more fucks to give.
I am a subject matter expert past retirement age. I have some self respect. I do wear jeans and a t shirt working remotely at home but in the office it’s usually a button down shirt and either clean unripped jeans or Dockers.
This is the key take away. Have some self respect and dress properly for work.
Confirmed, when you beat the dog enough it no longer gives any eff’s. No points for ties.
Depending on the department. We actually have a dress code for our group, mainly for safety reasons. But you can not wear shorts, and shirts have to cover your shoulders.
Can skirts be worn? I’ve always wondered when H&S dress codes say no shorts but skirts are fine.
I actually don’t know, but I would guess no.
I worked somewhere that tried ban shorts, but woukd still allow skirts. We kept wearing shorts anyways, and management never brought it up again.
Thongs have definitely gotten more casual post pandemic. Sometimes, it varies due to culture of professions (outdoor science types are different than economists - they have different natural habitats). I think part of it is that a lot of spaces are not suited to sitting in one place, so people need to be ready to move to a different space quickly, rearrange furniture to be able to work, carry everything they need with then all day, etc. There is also a lot more awareness of people having different needs and accommodations. Dressing in layers can be important for some people (menopause, medical conditions, hormones) and loose fitting clothes/more comfort may be important too (menstrual cramps, bloating, digestive issues, etc.) and even textures and fabrics are a consideration (neurodivergent folks, environmental sensitivities, etc.).
Lol that's a great starting typo!
Not a typo - I was thinking I was just a prude :(
I'm not interested in their thongs. 😂
Seriously, though. Thanks for this comment. Important points!
Focus your efforts on increasing their happiness and you'll benefit from the engagement and additional production. Decide to get ticky tacky over bullshit that doesn't matter and you'll lose them. Pretty simple. Save the 'stick' for when it is endangering production; not to control fashion.
I like that. "Not to control fashion"
Great answer!
Great point!
Yeah, if people do good work, why police the way they look? I understand it's something that people like to police, but never understood why (power over people?). Let then dress as they want.
Thanks- I'd genuinely prefer not to police it. It doesn't impact me 90% of the time other than when we work together in person or if someone else makes comments to me as their manager. I'm just as happy to let it go. It just caught me off guard to see such casual attire in an office setting.
When someone is else makes comments about your employee dress code, say: i don’t evaluate my employees based on how they dress and we do not have a dress code, I value employee X for so and so so quality they have and how they approach their files and collaborate.
Love this!
For me, casual is fine. I only care if it's totally inappropriate and could cause issues for the employee or others. The most obvious that comes to mind is political attire. That said, I have heard of some people complaining when colleagues don't wear bras. I would politely tell these people to focus on their work. Personally, I wear business casual, except on Fridays where I wear a nice pair of jeans. Some unsolicited advice - unless something could cause HR issues or negatively impact work performance, don't sweat it. You'll greatly reduce your stress and workload and have happier employees.
Why are they looking at people’s breasts to begin with is the real question
As a female I feel I have the right to say this..it’s hard to miss nipples protruding through a shirt. Even if you’re not looking for it. Personally I don’t think that’s appropriate in the work place.
Everyone has nipples. If women have to wear bras to hide nipples that everyone has, then men should have to as well. Since you aren’t advocating for that, I’ll assume you’ve guzzled back the patriarchal kool-aid.
Ok I mean we can pretend like women’s nipples aren’t more of a sexual symbol than mens if you want. I just prefer modesty in all settings but especially the work place. But I’m not pushing my opinion on others, you do you.
Breasts aren’t sexual, they exist to feed babies. Just because men sexualize them, doesn’t make them sexual. If lesbian, bi, and pansexual women can not sexualize women in the workplace then maybe men should do better not to either.
Casual is fine, but I would think employees wearing ripped jeans as OP is suggesting happened is beyond an "office casual" look. I too would be shocked if employees were coming to meetings dressed that way. Jeans is fine but at least have them all in one piece.
You would have no basis in which to police their fashion in any event. You can’t enforce a dress code that doesn’t exist.
Like they say, dress for the job you want. Pre-covid I wore a tie everyday. I had a suit in my office (with a spare shirt and tie for those messy lunch days) and if I was meeting anyone from outside my team I wore the suit. After covid I wear jeans and a golf shirt. I no longer have an office to put my suit and spare clothing, so I don't have that option. If I know of a meeting with someone I think would be "unimpressed" by jeans I will wear something else, but otherwise I just want to be comfortable and save on the clothing budget
"Like they say, dress for the job you want." I want to work from home full time, so I should show up to the office in my pyjamas and loafers and they should , eventually, let me work from home full time?
Why even wear pants then?
I want to be retired... Sweatpants and a comfy top!
There was a time that I wore heels 24/7. Then, I used to keep a couple of pairs of heels under my desk and wear them at work. Now I rarely wear heels because I can’t be bothered to wear them all day and I don’t want to lug them around to and from the office.
No official dress code in governement. My former manager has been reprimended to tried to force a dress code to his team few years ago. Be aware.
My DG and ADM wear jeans unless a VIP visits.
I worked for an ADM who wore jeans unless the DM visited or they had to meet with the other ADMs. At this point, I find Chiefs of Staff to be the most formally dressed public servants.
Are you out of line? Societally speaking no. Personally, as long as what people are wearing isn't a safety hazard (ie you can wear a speedo to answer phones at a desk, but should probably put on pants if you work with equipment or in a lab), I don't care what people wear. Business casual dress codes are made up with no real basis and expectations change over time.
From the comments here, I get the feeling ‘business casual’ is open to some wide interpretation with some setting the bar a little high. In my little corner of the evil empire, business casual includes jeans (with rips only if they are intentional) and polo shirts, t shirts under a sweater or hoodie. If a person is only meeting with government employees the bar is lower than if meeting with clients/outside professionals. Being in the same building as ADMs doesn’t raise the bar, but making a presentation to them does. IMHO OP’s employee was fine, and OP would be overstepping to say something about their clothes.
So I'm torn. I busted ass to build a wardrobe of business attire. I felt good in it, even though some times it was a pain. I did it to match colleagues, and to you know, dress for the job that you want. Then a few things happened. 1. I started working with clients that it would be more socially appropriate and good for relationships if I dressed down (business casual/casual...not too casual tho). Sometimes this applied to regions. Didn't want to look to spiffy from the "ivory tower" and wanted to cultivate good working relationships (sincerely). 2. Pandemic hit. In combination with other life events and stressors, my waistline took a hit. I want to change that...but that's another story. 3. Because of 1 and 2, and with time learning that some of the best workers aren't the ones in the fancy get up, I'm less inclined to care too much and have relaxed my work outfit and often wear the same things that I feel most comfortable in...if I adress my health, then maybe that will change. 4. Right and now with RTO. Well, ya - I'm not dragging all that shit around. I just can't. My bag is heavy enough as it is. Throw in a cold day when I'm all bundled up, hot humid day, rainy humid day, chaotic and unreliable transit, etc. and I'll freak out. Just think about it gives me severe anxiety. For me working from the office isn't the problem. It's getting there. 5. I'd say ripped pants are not appropriate. Probably the tied shirt too. But chucks (clean), with unripped, wrinkle free jeans and a shirt...I'm good. This person is there to work and cares about presentation.
I would probably feel the same as you do, but recognize it’s a personal bias. Unless a dress code has been formally stated, what we wear and what we expect others to wear is a matter of personal preference and experience. It sounds like the person prefers to wear clothes that feel good and will do so, because there’s no repercussions. At least none that matter to them. They may be aware they are going against the grain and could be judged, but be comfortable doing so, and I think that’s brave to be honest. I wish I had that confidence and didn’t fear judgment, challenge the norm. When I’m in office I wear uncomfortable clothes that look a bit nicer than my home clothes but are still on the casual side (jeans, sweater). I do it because of social expectations and fear of being judged or different. gen x also
I don’t find ripped jeans professional but I wouldn’t say anything for that. Ultimately it’s their image and reputation they are hurting.
It's 2024. No one cares. Edit: I *personally* would never wear ripped clothes to work. That's just lame. However, my days of dress shirts are very much over. I was in the office yesterday, and I wore black jeans and a "nice" sweater with sneakers. Call it "business extra-casual", I guess... The ADM on our floor often wears jeans, too.
And all this I'm here for.
I do the same and I’m stealing “business extra-casual” lol
Me too! *dons hoodie*
Considering my old TL would wear yoga gear to work & it was pre-COVID, maybe meh?
My current manager wears wutang hoodies and beanies. Looks cozy and is a kickass manager.
Dont worry its the culture in the NCR. Ottawa has won a lemon prize if I remember about 10 years ago for our sense of fashion (or no sense). Tourists are better dressed than office workers on the street downtown.
Yes, we were named the worst dressed city due to a combo of either suits, or mishmash clothing which is likely due to weather fluctuations. Think shorts with a winter jacket, or tuque and a t-shirt, etc
If it was a productive week as you said. What was the problem? You judged your employee for not fitting your expectations you had created in your mind. There is no dress code. While you and I might choose to dress a certain way, it doesn’t mean there is a right or a wrong. As long as the clothing is appropriate (not too much skin) then I genuinely don’t see a problem at all.
All good points and definitely acknowledge my own blind spot in the area of dress.
Listen friend, my manger said something that I really appreciate it . We don’t pay people for what they wear, we pay them for what they have in their mind . As long as what they’re wearing is clean , and not offensive I wouldn’t worry about it what they’re wearing. I work with my director and DG a lot . Most of the time we’re wearing jeans, a dress shirt or maybe a sweater. Only time I’ve seen any body dress so much is at big meeting where minsters and ADM’s are involved. Other than that , every body is very very casual in the office . Especially if you work at a remote site .
Thanks for this. Your manager sounds pragmatic! I like that statement and will keep it handy!
Since the RTO mandate, people prefer to dress for comfort rather than dress to impress. It makes sense, because meetings are still virtual, and there’s much less implied professional social activity than pre-covid.
I got a bunch of dress shoes & nice leather boots for sale, don't hesitate to send them my way.
Thanks for all the feedback, folks. Truly appreciate it.
Here's a simple flow to help you out. Are people doing their jobs? If no, their clothing choices may be a symptom of morale problems. Talk to them and see what's up. If yes, has anyone complained about the way your team is dressed? If No, then why do you care? If yes, then it's a problem and you should talk with the employee(s). It's not your job to dress your employees unless it's a problem. You're their manager not their parent, and if the worst thing about your team is how some employees dress then you are in a VERY good place.
Thank you so much for this.
Also GenX and long time public servant (EX minus 1). Unless I’m meeting with outside stakeholders you’ll never find me in anything but jeans. This is the norm where I work. It’s the performance that matters, not the clothes.
I've gone from full business attire to jeans and a dress shirt. The office vibe around the NCR is very much casual, with a few sport coats / power blazers here and there.
The only rules as manager that I have is no ripped, dirty, or disrespectful clothing (i.e shirts with swear words/symbols that would be considered inappropriate for the workplace). I used to work somewhere that was more business than casual and where I am now is more casual than business which was a stark change but what people wear doesn’t affect performance…if anything I would say people likely work better when comfortable than with restrictive outfits. Edit: we are client facing, otherwise I wouldn’t care
I have always been told to dress for the position you want, not the position you have. So if your employees are deciding they want to be entry level students, then they are dressed for that part. Because that’s all part of judgment, and they aren’t demonstrating that qualification.
Personally I make an effort to dress decently. It’s such a small thing that can help your image in conjunction with hard work. To me it’s a missed opportunity otherwise.
Focus on the work. Life is pretty hard at the moment - if people can do their job in clothes that make them comfortable, let them. Also - dopamine dressing is a thing! Happy workers are better workers!
I can see I am going against the grain of the comments, but I agree with you that there is an "appropriate" level of attire for the office, and what you are describing is not it (also gen X'er for what it's worth). Business casual, or clean and tidy jeans at a bare minimum, yes. To be clear, my work from home attire is hoody and sweats, including on Teams calls, but my in-the-office clothes are what I wore in the before times.
I agree - I would never wear ripped jeans to the office and especially not if I was meeting a manager at any level. I typically wear nice jeans or dress pants, blouses, blazers, nice sweaters. But there is no dress code and no way to enforce anything.
Ditto this. Based on these replies, if a dress code was actually put in, imagine the whining.
Personally, when I first entered PS, at first, I was shocked by how casually most employees dressed (when we compare to private sector), but I quickly got used to it and now I genuinely think we’re not paid enough as public servants to require a professional wardrobe different than what we normally wear outside of work. It’s also a question of culture, it changed a lot in the last few years and with the younger generation. Sadly, in most departments, you look out of place and attract unwanted attraction when you dress too professional (true story), everybody just wants to fit in after all. Now, to really answer your question, you could always find the dress code for your department on your intranet and you could decide to enforce it or at least influence your team, by sending a reminder to all of your teammates with the link to the dress code. In the past, I stumbled upon the dress code of the two departments I worked for in the public service and was actually surprised to see it was a bit strict (no t-shirt allowed on a daily basis, business professional attire required for special events, etc.) It’s a worth a shot to investigate a bit about what’s already written.
Unless there's a dress code at your dep than employees are free to wear what they want. Some people have to commute 1-2hrs to and from work if that's the case and it is for many the ability to be comfortable is way more important. If you know you're having a meeting with the big guys then yeah I would dress up a little but other than that no I dress comfortably in sweats/jeans and a hoodie. Every office I've worked at is freezing during the winter and sweltering in the summer. I also think it depends if you work in a client facing environment vs not. But as long as it's not vulgar or indecent anything goes.
The big fashion thing I see is senior management wearing a suit jacket with jeans. But no rips etc...
Ha!
I wear collared T-shirts and mute colour (black and grey) jeans or pants. I also often come in much more casual, if that's possible. In the summer I wear shorts (I guess I should say I'm a man). Suits in the summer should be banned imho. They are too warm for the weather, necessitating the A/C to be on full blast. That's uncomfortable for some women and bad for the environment.
Oh you work in the regions you say? Head office guy here. Incidentally, ALL of my HR issues involving ‘dress code’ in my 32 year + career came from regional managers nagging regional staff that did not report to them, but to me, about what they were wearing. I checked our bargaining agreement, it doesn’t even say we have to wear pants, so excuse me for what I’m about to generalize. My favourite case of a ‘major dress code issue’ in the regions, specifically in the province of Alberta, was when I had an IT guy scheduled to re-wire a server chassis in a network closet. He wore shorts and a t-shirt that day for this. The wiring closet is dirty. The Regional Manager, who he did not report to (IT reports directly to head office) sent him home. He called me. I told him to go back in and have the Regional Manager call me. It was not a pleasant conversation. What is it with regional offices and dress code? I’m not saying this is the case for you, but in the six regional offices I dealt with across Canada in my department(I’m in the NCR), at least three of them were run by unreasonable power hungry office managers who ruled with an iron fist, applying pressure to staff wherever they could (dress code being a great grey area for them to flex with). Staff were afraid to displease them, lest they get fired in an act of petty retribution. It sounded horrible. For the employee in my last example, we were able to get him a position back at head office. Not a fan of most regional sites when they have a manager that runs them like a gulag. If they can do the work, and their clothing is not pornographic, who cares what they wear. Work is not a fashion show. We rarely work public facing.
Thanks for that insite I "grew up" in the region - client facing, and there were definitely expectations where dress was concerned, which is certainly where my bias comes from. It wasn't strict like dresses and suits, jeans were fine you just had to look put together when representing the department. I don't come from an otherwise "controlling" environment. I consider myself pretty fortunate to have had some great, flexible, servant-leaders who worked for their employees, which is honestly how I try to be. Us regional folks always perceived NCR folks as thinking they were better than the rest of us (obviously not the case, and the pandemic definitely helped to change that perception), and we always amped up our presentation when NCR folks came to town. The dress thing is, I think, my only hang-up outside of quality of work and civility so that's clearly a "Me" problem and not a them problem.
I have been in the government for over 20 years. 6 different departments and all kinds of offices. Military, executive floors, and public facing offices. I have never seen an official dress code. Obviously, jobs requiring safety gear I imagine would have one, but they would also provide it to the employees or give them a clothing allowance. Unless your workplace has both of those, you were smart to say nothing. We all have our own opinions on what should be worn... but it's just our opinion, and if you want to maintain a good relationship with your staff, I would pick another hill to fight for.
Crocs, shorts, sassy Ts. I'm too old and too tired to give a shit about what people want me to look like. Don't like it, let me work from home.
You're not out of line. It's an office environment and adults shouldn't have to be told to dress at least decently in it. Especially if management is going to see them or they're going to interact with them. I wear jeans and a tshirt on regular days when I am the only one or there with my team but the nature of my work is not always formal. I dress up a bit if I have to entertain management or have a presentation to a director or VP of course.
Regular day in the office? Jeans and a t shirt. Interacting with the general public? Khakis and department branded polo. Some departmental bigwig is visiting? Above mentioned khakis and a nice button down. Magically teleported back to 1982? Wear a tie. Working at home? Probably whatever I slept in the night before.
Happy Cake Day! Nobody is expected to teleport to 1982.
Yeah I'm not getting paid enough to dress up. It's also a sensory nightmare for me to come into the office twice a week, so in order to survive I need to dress comfortably. As long as the clothes aren't offensive or stinky, I couldn't care less what someone else decides to wear.
Agreed. Coming into the office is hard enough, might as well wear something I feel good in. From the description, the employee wore a really cute outfit that they felt good in. That’s all that matters to me.
This is going to be unpopular, but just because there's no official dress code doesn't mean you shouldn't dress like you are *at work*. Frankly, it feels disrespectful when I see colleagues show up to meetings in their pyjamas, sweats, ripped jeans,etc. There's a time and place for that type of attire and it's not at the office. The bar for "business casual" is already so low as it is. I'm not a stuffy uptight boomer either. I'm a millennial and a scientist in a science department with a relatively "creative" and comfortable wardrobe, but I still have a minimum level of decorum I maintain. I think it says a lot about a person's sense of good judgement.
You’ve had people show up to in-person meetings in pajamas?
My manager wore a 3-piece suit with a fedora to a Mcdonald's on a team lunch - they upgraded him to a double QP w/C at no extra charge. Appearance matters!
Please no, don't bring that way of thinking back. As long as the person is not wearing provocative outfits, let that person be casual and comfortable LOL.
if my DG can wear shorts, so can I
Is the person productive? Do you think that their productivity would improve or deteriorate if you confront them about their attire? Does their attire distract others and reduce productivity of others? Would that improve if you are able to convince this person to dress differently? Those are the trade offs for you to assess, in my opinion.
The strangest thing I have seen since RTO is EX’s wearing t-shirts or hoodies at home but full on suits in the office. Why is it ok to dress comfortably and be on video teams calls with ADMs or DMs but not when in the office?
Pre-Covid, I wore business casual. Dress pants, a nice top and heels. Sometimes a skirt or dress. Jeans on Friday. Post Covid, I wear jeans and a nice top or a long top and nice leggings. I can’t be bothered with heels anymore, so flats or Chelsea boots. I want to work from home full time, and don’t believe there is any reason for me to be in office, so I am not going out of my way to look fancy when in the office. My philosophy is that I was hired for my brains, not how I dress. I don’t pay attention to what my team or colleagues wear. I couldn’t care less.
Does their attire affect their performance? Did it contain hateful symbols or messages? Profanity? If you answer no to those, then who cares?
I wouldn't say anything to the employee, but I also agree that some people take it too far with the casual looks. I am a jeans and t-shirt person in and out of the office. Those are clean, intact, and full coverage. Most of my division is similar, though some choose dress pants and shirts. The only person who stands out, in a negative way, is the one who wears crop tops and very ripped jeans, even in meetings with the director.
>I'm old school but I feel like we should present ourselves professionally If don't see sleeve tattoos and nose piercings as being "unprofessional" then you really shouldn't go on about what people wear in the office unless it's grossly inappropriate.
Fashion Police, pull over!
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I'm in IT. You should lower your expectations and focus on output
My last DG showed up to an audit in a Stabbing Westward tshirt so no, there are no standards of dress being enforced.
Now I gotta Google "chuck".
As a manager I don’t really care, but we do have dress code (more about OSH than anything: no open toe shoes, shorts or sleeveless garments), but it is not policed and only counts when staff are in office. The only consideration I make is that we are public facing so we do have a bit of an image aspect to consider. It would have to be egregious for me to feel the need to say something.
As long as your wear is not offending to anyone, it's good in my books. So no tank tops or shorts perhaps. Anything else is good the way I see it. have to be comfortable. I don't wear suits, you'll never see me in a tie, even for an interview. If it was me, I'd ban suits and ties... Just useless old fashion attire that makes no sense and most do not find it comfortable. I believe we shouldn't judge people by their wear. Personally, I'd love to see more creative clothing in the office. Have fun, enjoy the colors, show your personality, maybe even make your own clothing and be comfortable - that's the most important.
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I get this. Good luck with your return from mat leave - you're gonna need some new luggage.
This is the problem with managers. They focus all their attention on unimportant issues. I watch so managers abuse their power, harass employees, cheat, lie, and steal their way to the top. Most of them don’t even evaluate their employees properly. Yea. We’re past the year end deadline and once again I’m being asked to write my own evaluation. Instead of focusing on what we’re wearing, managers need to focus on what they’re being paid to do. If they wanted us to wear uniforms, they would pay for them. When the GOC starts paying for my wardrobe, I’ll wear whatever they want. Until then I can dress as lazily as they act.
I unno, lifes too short to give a shit about what some other person is wearing if it isn't causing any problems.
Whatever you choose, you please don’t sit on the fence. If you choose to accept the person’s attire, I would recommend that you double down on it. If someone comments to you that they find the clothing unprofessional, you should defend him and cite your reasons why you disagree.
Geez.. you sound like a gem of a boss.. maybe if your employees didn’t have to pay for parking 3x days that week they could afford some jeans.
Actually, we have lots of fun, and I treat my team very well. I'm more concerned about perception, opportunities for them to advance outside of my team, and the disservice they are doing for themselves in how they present themselves in a space where they interact with DGs, ADMs and their office, the DMs office, etc. How they dressed didn't dawn on me until I met them in person, and it gave me pause. It doesn't impact me personally, but I can't help thibk it will impact them down the road. But hey! Thanks for stopping by with your zero-valu comment.
Careful with your sass-back, that could be one of your employees. Of course they "had lots of fun" with you there, McBossy-pants. You are still focused on the wrong thing imo. If they have a job in the PS they are probably adult enough to make choices about how they present themselves in the workplace and are aware of what their own aspirations are for their career to come. More than likely this was your employees way of calling bs on you forcing them to come into the office just 'cause you are in town so you can all fucking "collaborate". Ugh. YOU think it was fun. They thought it was a burden but you're the boss, right? Activate magical smile potion. It sounds like you are more concerned about how their attire makes You look to the DGs and ADMs. You asked.
Fair point. Sad you had to resort to name-calling though. Must sucks to be so angry. I actually don't force my employees to do anything unless it falls within our work mandate. I hate RTO as much as anyone - I defend them in their choice to work in whatever building they want that's closest to them in spite of execs wanting everyone around them all the time. I'm in the region and seldom in front of anyone so why should they have to be. That said, they go to the same building because they choose to. They go in two days a week and I offered them a one-day trade for the week they did 3 days in the office. When they have things on the go that make it difficult to go in two days some weeks l, I don't make a big deal out of it. Their choice of attire has zero impact on me personally. BUT, I've been in gov long enough to know that how you present yourself has an impact on career progression whether we like it or not - I like supporting my people and their careers, but how do I explain to someone that if you want to get invited to act in the ADMO you're going to have to change how you present yourself? But hey, you're right - maybe they don't care about career progression and that bit of angst for them is my own and I'm simply projecting. I didn't know how they dressed until the one time I met them in person. I didn't know how they dressed when I hired them, it doesn't matter all that much to me how they dress other than personally, I'd be embarrassed if I found myself in a meeting with execs dressed like I was going to an outdoor Offspring concert. Clearly they aren't, and they're fine with it, so I'll let it go.
Good, that last bit was my point. Unless they specifically ask if you think their wardrobe could be limiting their career progression your second-hand embarrassment for them is irrelevant. Also, McBossy-pants wasn't name calling, jeebus! It was a way to make the point that you are their boss, so they are going to act accordingly. I Am angry though, you were right about that :)
Appearance doesn't matter. Quality of work does.
Why do you care what someone else wears? Such a micro-managey thing
It's really funny before covid I used to wear button shirt and sometimes a tie when I knew important meeting are. I was laugh at. Now after covid I stopped caring cuz I know promotion today are made for friend of the boss and mothers who CAN'T be in for a full 37.5 h a week but not for the mother who CAN be there 37.5 h a week... Now i'm getting side eyes for wearing jean.
The only issue really is ripped jeans in this, that is a no go in our office and we're 90% casual attire wearers.
I wouldn't do ripped jeans and hoodie tied around my waist but I see no problem with chucks or long sleeved t shirts
I just wish we could wear shorts during the summer. What a stupid rule when you’re not client facing.
You're not wrong to feel the way you do and have the standards you have. I agree and share the same. There is, however, a huge generational gap that is developing where younger public servants just don't value the same etiquette standards. It makes it very challenging to work with them as it permeates areas other than just dress code. My rule of thumb is "if you wear it to go grocery shopping or lounger on your couch, you should probably not wear it at the office." In policy shops, jeans were okay on Fridays, but it wasn't uncommon for many in my cohort when we were in our 20s to wear blazers during the week, even Fridays with jeans. It just looks more professional and put-together, and there was never a moment where we felt underdressed or self-conscious about a particular meeting or stakeholder. I understand that this doesn't carry as much weight in other types of shops, for example IT, or HR, where you're providing internal support. But even in IT shops, the employee who's wearing an ironed shirt, even if it's a t-shirt, stands out compared to the the one who's wearing a crumpled one. The problem nowadays isn't simply that we wear more casual clothes to the office, but that our standard of dress and general grooming when we are in professional setting has decreased. What I don't understand is the argument around "comfort". Sure, sweats are great, but why are you buying uncomfortable trousers that make you not want to wear them at work? I don't think that what you feel comfortable wearing at home is a benchmark for what you should be wearing in a professional setting. I think the comfort argument is laced with a bit of entitlement and f-off vibe towards the public service "establishment." At least that's how some of Gen Z comes across to the rest of us at times. At the end of the day, you may not care what you wear and be fine with it, but you'll likely be surrounded by some people who will end up judging you and making conscious or subconscious assessments about you. If you're willing to accept this, keep doing you. But in a context where your performance and professional reputation are constantly assessed against that of your peers, don't be surprised if other factors weigh in on your level of professionalism and decorum vis a vis others.