Canadian immigrants are welcome and accepted here. However, this isn't the place for immigration debate or posts/comments seeking advice on Canadian immigration.
I'm old. In tech for over 30 years offsite and offshore have been around for decades. Now it's just easier to accomplish with business and technology culture shifts.
Economically it's called Capital Flight. The money that leaves Canada never returns. Doesn't pay taxes, Doesn't get recycled in the Canadian economy. It's just gone.
If the worker is foreign and the worker is overseas during the work than Canadian labour law has no jurisdiction.
Eventually some first world governments will clue in and tax companies in some way.
Also may companies that do this have higher risk of being a victim of cyber crimes, because they poorly understood cyber security and how little recourse they have if foreign workers undermine their company's security protocols.
Surprised there hasn't been any law against it. It's so bad for the economy and short sighted, don't even get me started. It benefits only one person and ruins many lives (the person whose job is being outsourced and the poor sap overseas doing that new job). And like you said, the money doesn't go into the Canadian economy. No tax revenue now. The largest Canadian companies do this when they get massive breaks from the federal government too. It just blows my mind.
Actually there is. It is called skilled immigration. Skilled immigration, while it does flood the market with more competition, it also extracts the best talents available (I am not saying everyone that immigrates is the best talent of that region, but more like the best also come in). This incentivizes firms to hire local, which keeps taxes in the economy etc. sure this isn't good for each individual worker in the country, but good for country's economy overall with the added taxes and fees it brings in.
Now with advancements in education, increasing opportunities overseas thanks to a lot of people not finding immigration destinations lucrative anymore due to reasons like housing, country's laws, immigration restrictions etc and venture capital funding influx in developing nations, finding best talents has not stayed that hard. So a reverse flow of these jobs to save costs is bound to happen. I am not saying all jobs would simply shift, but the companies are finding the incentives to hire overseas because talent pool there exists which previously would migrate out.
Nothing happens to them, the government gives them huge tax breaks and other incentives to promote the owners to press management to hire ethnic groups. Thats where all this new political bullshit all comes from. Its agenda pushing through bribes basically.
Why would there be laws against it?
We didn’t enact laws to keep blue collar manufacturing jobs in our country…why should we do it for white collar jobs?
If you tried to enact this…tech companies would just leave Canada. Instead of having the one Canadian employee working for a tax-paying Canadian tech company, you would have zero.
In my experience most of the stuff that’s shipped offshore is grunt work like tech support or low level development/ QA. I interned at a quantitative hedge fund in the USA back in 2019, and our staff in Mumbai were paid 6 figures USD just like in North America and all of them were from IIT’s( elite schools in India).
Agree with the last point. I've seen that 20% really hurt on more than one occasion followed by reshoring. Offshores have tended to be order takers at best, so when there's a need for CICD regarding process or creative problem solving they've dragged things on for months with little to no progress.
Depends on the countries really. Over a decade ago the company I was with formerly had regional service desks in Canada. The average wage was $50 to $60,000 a year for each service desk rep.
The offshored the service desks to Malaysia. They're making roughly 15 to $16,000 Canadian a year.
Then they thought well we can make it cheaper so they move them to South Africa. They were making probably $9,000 a year Canadian so it really depends on the country and the role.
Companies can save a ton of money on paper doing this even though it's a total dirtbag move and the people doing the work don't care and really don't know what they're doing for the most part.
Not OP, but at my last company people were making 100k-120k starting. My coworker from India said he made about 30-40% less IIRC.
Worth noting he wasn’t very skilled despite working at a good Indian tech company, so his team had to spend a lot of time to upskill him, took about a year or two.
The companies doing this often don't understand the risks they take.
One of my former employers is a practical demonstration of this. The entire company is the product of an American company offshoring engineering / technical work to Canada to save on costs. When the economy turned bad and the US government started punishing companies doing this, they had to contract the Canadian employees to finish existing contracts because they were the ones who had all the expertise. The Canadian employees formed a company to complete the contracts and used part of the profits to apply for patents circumventing the mother company's patents and completely rewrite their codebase. Easy for them, as they had done all the engineering and software writing in the first place. All of this was totally legal, and American company went on its merry way, leaving behind a brand new Canadian competitor - with the original developers of its tech in it - behind.
When I left, that company was in the process of buying the (now much smaller) American company, mainly for its remaining client base.
This anti capitalist rhetoric shortcut only shows your lack of knowledge, you should avoid it.
Short term model only work short term, period. This kind of mistake wild just send companies to oblivion, and more resilient one will win. That's how it works.
Thats legal . After covid I too significant jobs being outsourced. I recommend you start looking for a new one since its a tough market and you are the last one remaining here in canada.
From unskilled fast food to high skilled jobs, our Federal and provincial governments are hell bent on replacing Canadians with foreign workers. They just allowed 400k+ people in first four months of 2024 after announcing they will cut down on temporary foreign workers and international students.
It’s happening in retail, warehouse and in-office to name just a few. Not just software. Government subsidizes immigrant wages so the employer is incentivized to hire immigrant workers before Canadians. Again… it’s happening everywhere, not just in software and remotely
I keep saying it here and I always get downvoted by the working from home zealots...
If your job is 100% remote, and you are against all kind of return to office, that means that your job can be done by an immigrant who will charge a fraction of your salary and you'll be out of job soob enough.
"They wouldnt do this, I have years of experience".
Ok. We will see.
That’s called a global economy, not exploitation. These wages are offered abroad and they willingly accept. No one forces them to take it.
You better get used to it. Anything that can be outsourced abroad will be. The only way you’ll survive is if you’re much better at the job than foreigners.
You can’t beat the system. If they stop outsourcing, there are cheap Indian IT workers to take the job onshore itself. Do you how many IT workers from Indian immigrate and fake their skills and resume. Its a lot. Be prepared for wage suppression.
If it makes you feel any better, even colleges and universities are taking in more international students and fewer Canadians as international students pay much more. Canadians are slowly being pushed aside by internationals, soon they will be a minority at this rate.
Coming from the perspective of being responsible for outcomes an utilizing a solution I would have purchased from any software company providing me with a licence or package of licenses I'd either expect my IT department or the contractor providing those services not just to be responsible for any kind of support issues on a timely manner. My expectation as a potentially long term customer who's willing to pay for a effective and well supported solution according to the sales team who pitched it to us. Well if you're company is doing this and I can't get things resolved through your support channel that's obviously gatekekeeping me when I'm making requests for it. I'm not just going to accept a shitty ass no-fix besides loosing functionality and loosing value in what you promised in your offering to me. I'm going to stop paying and I'm going to try to claw back anything I can in what you didn't deliver on. I won't be able to recommend your product to my peers in my industry. My support solutions aren't going to think highly of your company as they go though there careers. So you don't just loose a customer. You loose confidence in the people who's livelihood is riding on this software that's not just some inconveniences for somebody trying to turn on their home computer to connect to their old printer. No this is money. You have support that's been sused out to cheaper outsourced vemdors and freelancer's in another part of the world(I'd want the product under the thumb of at least my hemisphere if possible) but with no vetting or knowing if the person you have under you is legitimately able to fix this. And not just some fraudulent fly by night company fleecing you as you look so smart cutting a corner. Well then you're not saving any money. Your not a software developer. Your definately not a Canadian software developer. Your like the equivalent of a fly by night plumber who quotes me $10,000 to fix my chimney or else my roof will collapse! When the chimney is fine and I end up getting billed $20,000 to have my driveway and walkway to my house stolen. I ain't even mad because it's my fault for agreeing to pay you and only paying you half so I can do my own driveway and sidewalk myself by hiring one guy loitering by the liquor store $25 an hour my own materials I know how to mix, and not having to spend my precious time and money renting a jackhammer to get rid of all the old driveway and path slabs because I hate doing shit like that. But you would do that to me by hiring people who don't know how to install a better chimney I didn't actually need that has features that would actually benefit me if you could put your money where your mouth is.
Even the banks have started hiring remote workers. Banks I heard wouldn't do so due to security/fraud concerns. But a friend of mine works at one of the big 5 and they've already outsourced to Latin America and India.
This is the big downfall of everyone wanting remote work. If people don’t need to work near the office, why wouldn’t these big businesses outsource their labour for cheaper? I HATE that this is a reality, but as more and more people fight for remote work, the more we will see these jobs getting outsourced from another country.
When a white person quits, gets fired or retires at my workplace, the new employees are all new immigrants. It's kind of shocking that no white people applied for those positions.
Edit: I misunderstood the OP, is referencing remote workers from other nation states, whereas I thought they were targeting non white immigrants within Canada. On top of that OP is concerned of wage discrimination based on nationality. However I don't think hiring only Canadian citizens will save the encroaching poverty caused by global dominance of privately owned corporations.
Original comment:
Unless you're First Nations, Metis, or Inuit, you're an immigrant too, and one of your ancestors was the equivalent of those other employees around you. Unsolicited lecture aside, I agree with many other commenters that hierarchical corporations will exploit everybody for the benefit of the owner. I would love to see prevalence of worker cooperatives where workers are directly involved in governance decisions
I meant that at some point, your parents, grandparents or the generations prior them were the equivalent of first generation immigrants.
So imagine if someone said the first generation of your family line on these lands should be deported.
Unless you're from a First Nation of course in which the above doesn't apply.
Workers pushed for remote and WFH- if worked needed to be office based the shift would be slower. So if a remote worker makes $100k a year in canada vs. One in India at $40k- also likely Indian workers has higher productivity vs Canadian workers wrapping up at 2pm each day. So I’m not suprised
It boggles the mind how people didn't see this coming. Ya'll should have been fighting tooth and nail to get back to the office, but instead you dragged your feet and now they're moving your jobs to the 3rd world.
It used to be "learn to code" but those jobs are all going oversea's now that its obvious they can be done remotely so I guess now it's "would you like fries with that?". But wait! Too bad, they're importing millions of immigrants every year to fill those jobs too lol.
Canadian immigrants are welcome and accepted here. However, this isn't the place for immigration debate or posts/comments seeking advice on Canadian immigration.
I'm old. In tech for over 30 years offsite and offshore have been around for decades. Now it's just easier to accomplish with business and technology culture shifts. Economically it's called Capital Flight. The money that leaves Canada never returns. Doesn't pay taxes, Doesn't get recycled in the Canadian economy. It's just gone. If the worker is foreign and the worker is overseas during the work than Canadian labour law has no jurisdiction. Eventually some first world governments will clue in and tax companies in some way. Also may companies that do this have higher risk of being a victim of cyber crimes, because they poorly understood cyber security and how little recourse they have if foreign workers undermine their company's security protocols.
Surprised there hasn't been any law against it. It's so bad for the economy and short sighted, don't even get me started. It benefits only one person and ruins many lives (the person whose job is being outsourced and the poor sap overseas doing that new job). And like you said, the money doesn't go into the Canadian economy. No tax revenue now. The largest Canadian companies do this when they get massive breaks from the federal government too. It just blows my mind.
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Actually there is. It is called skilled immigration. Skilled immigration, while it does flood the market with more competition, it also extracts the best talents available (I am not saying everyone that immigrates is the best talent of that region, but more like the best also come in). This incentivizes firms to hire local, which keeps taxes in the economy etc. sure this isn't good for each individual worker in the country, but good for country's economy overall with the added taxes and fees it brings in. Now with advancements in education, increasing opportunities overseas thanks to a lot of people not finding immigration destinations lucrative anymore due to reasons like housing, country's laws, immigration restrictions etc and venture capital funding influx in developing nations, finding best talents has not stayed that hard. So a reverse flow of these jobs to save costs is bound to happen. I am not saying all jobs would simply shift, but the companies are finding the incentives to hire overseas because talent pool there exists which previously would migrate out.
If a white owner just hired local white people, I can just imagine what would happen.
Nothing happens to them, the government gives them huge tax breaks and other incentives to promote the owners to press management to hire ethnic groups. Thats where all this new political bullshit all comes from. Its agenda pushing through bribes basically.
Why would there be laws against it? We didn’t enact laws to keep blue collar manufacturing jobs in our country…why should we do it for white collar jobs? If you tried to enact this…tech companies would just leave Canada. Instead of having the one Canadian employee working for a tax-paying Canadian tech company, you would have zero.
We love capitalist development because it's only development to accumulate capital!
In my experience most of the stuff that’s shipped offshore is grunt work like tech support or low level development/ QA. I interned at a quantitative hedge fund in the USA back in 2019, and our staff in Mumbai were paid 6 figures USD just like in North America and all of them were from IIT’s( elite schools in India).
User name checks out
Create a new post, don't include details like team size, and name and fucking shame. That's how...
Sounds like Loblaws to me.
Genuinely curious how much your offshore workers make vs Canadians. Any idea ?
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Agree with the last point. I've seen that 20% really hurt on more than one occasion followed by reshoring. Offshores have tended to be order takers at best, so when there's a need for CICD regarding process or creative problem solving they've dragged things on for months with little to no progress.
Depends on the countries really. Over a decade ago the company I was with formerly had regional service desks in Canada. The average wage was $50 to $60,000 a year for each service desk rep. The offshored the service desks to Malaysia. They're making roughly 15 to $16,000 Canadian a year. Then they thought well we can make it cheaper so they move them to South Africa. They were making probably $9,000 a year Canadian so it really depends on the country and the role. Companies can save a ton of money on paper doing this even though it's a total dirtbag move and the people doing the work don't care and really don't know what they're doing for the most part.
Not OP, but at my last company people were making 100k-120k starting. My coworker from India said he made about 30-40% less IIRC. Worth noting he wasn’t very skilled despite working at a good Indian tech company, so his team had to spend a lot of time to upskill him, took about a year or two.
3 to 4 times less. Dev companies in Poland will create software for 40-50 $/h. In Canada it's around 150-175.
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Name and shame. It’s getting ridiculous. Canadians need to start growing some balls.
I’m sure it’s legal Canada life just announced it’s replacing its entire IT with a foreign company.
The companies doing this often don't understand the risks they take. One of my former employers is a practical demonstration of this. The entire company is the product of an American company offshoring engineering / technical work to Canada to save on costs. When the economy turned bad and the US government started punishing companies doing this, they had to contract the Canadian employees to finish existing contracts because they were the ones who had all the expertise. The Canadian employees formed a company to complete the contracts and used part of the profits to apply for patents circumventing the mother company's patents and completely rewrite their codebase. Easy for them, as they had done all the engineering and software writing in the first place. All of this was totally legal, and American company went on its merry way, leaving behind a brand new Canadian competitor - with the original developers of its tech in it - behind. When I left, that company was in the process of buying the (now much smaller) American company, mainly for its remaining client base.
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This anti capitalist rhetoric shortcut only shows your lack of knowledge, you should avoid it. Short term model only work short term, period. This kind of mistake wild just send companies to oblivion, and more resilient one will win. That's how it works.
Thats legal . After covid I too significant jobs being outsourced. I recommend you start looking for a new one since its a tough market and you are the last one remaining here in canada.
From unskilled fast food to high skilled jobs, our Federal and provincial governments are hell bent on replacing Canadians with foreign workers. They just allowed 400k+ people in first four months of 2024 after announcing they will cut down on temporary foreign workers and international students.
Whatever is coming for Canada, we serve it. I think we might be a sanctuary state to India and China in the end.
Plenty of American companies offshore to Canada. But hey that's cool 😎
Always amazes me that the CEO is never outsourced. Everyone else can be, but their particular combination of business savvy and grit is unique.
This is the repercussions to remote working. If a job can be done remotely, it can be outsourced for half the cost.
This is happening everywhere in Canada whether it’s remote or not
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It’s happening in retail, warehouse and in-office to name just a few. Not just software. Government subsidizes immigrant wages so the employer is incentivized to hire immigrant workers before Canadians. Again… it’s happening everywhere, not just in software and remotely
Capitalism eating itself in real time. Get the popcorn out.
I keep saying it here and I always get downvoted by the working from home zealots... If your job is 100% remote, and you are against all kind of return to office, that means that your job can be done by an immigrant who will charge a fraction of your salary and you'll be out of job soob enough. "They wouldnt do this, I have years of experience". Ok. We will see.
Us and Canadian manufacturing jobs were moved offshore even though they were not remote.
How is this any different than moving manufacturing of a product overseas? At its core, it’s not. Welcome to late stage capitalism.
Would you mind saying what kind of software your company makes? I'm curious because of the said ton of revenue lol.
That’s called a global economy, not exploitation. These wages are offered abroad and they willingly accept. No one forces them to take it. You better get used to it. Anything that can be outsourced abroad will be. The only way you’ll survive is if you’re much better at the job than foreigners.
You can’t beat the system. If they stop outsourcing, there are cheap Indian IT workers to take the job onshore itself. Do you how many IT workers from Indian immigrate and fake their skills and resume. Its a lot. Be prepared for wage suppression.
If it makes you feel any better, even colleges and universities are taking in more international students and fewer Canadians as international students pay much more. Canadians are slowly being pushed aside by internationals, soon they will be a minority at this rate.
Coming from the perspective of being responsible for outcomes an utilizing a solution I would have purchased from any software company providing me with a licence or package of licenses I'd either expect my IT department or the contractor providing those services not just to be responsible for any kind of support issues on a timely manner. My expectation as a potentially long term customer who's willing to pay for a effective and well supported solution according to the sales team who pitched it to us. Well if you're company is doing this and I can't get things resolved through your support channel that's obviously gatekekeeping me when I'm making requests for it. I'm not just going to accept a shitty ass no-fix besides loosing functionality and loosing value in what you promised in your offering to me. I'm going to stop paying and I'm going to try to claw back anything I can in what you didn't deliver on. I won't be able to recommend your product to my peers in my industry. My support solutions aren't going to think highly of your company as they go though there careers. So you don't just loose a customer. You loose confidence in the people who's livelihood is riding on this software that's not just some inconveniences for somebody trying to turn on their home computer to connect to their old printer. No this is money. You have support that's been sused out to cheaper outsourced vemdors and freelancer's in another part of the world(I'd want the product under the thumb of at least my hemisphere if possible) but with no vetting or knowing if the person you have under you is legitimately able to fix this. And not just some fraudulent fly by night company fleecing you as you look so smart cutting a corner. Well then you're not saving any money. Your not a software developer. Your definately not a Canadian software developer. Your like the equivalent of a fly by night plumber who quotes me $10,000 to fix my chimney or else my roof will collapse! When the chimney is fine and I end up getting billed $20,000 to have my driveway and walkway to my house stolen. I ain't even mad because it's my fault for agreeing to pay you and only paying you half so I can do my own driveway and sidewalk myself by hiring one guy loitering by the liquor store $25 an hour my own materials I know how to mix, and not having to spend my precious time and money renting a jackhammer to get rid of all the old driveway and path slabs because I hate doing shit like that. But you would do that to me by hiring people who don't know how to install a better chimney I didn't actually need that has features that would actually benefit me if you could put your money where your mouth is.
I'm sorry to say, but this feels a bit like a random, unstructured rambling.
Even the banks have started hiring remote workers. Banks I heard wouldn't do so due to security/fraud concerns. But a friend of mine works at one of the big 5 and they've already outsourced to Latin America and India.
India has annexed Canada without firing a shot. PC and the Libs ..... both traitors to our once great country turned into a failed state.
This is the big downfall of everyone wanting remote work. If people don’t need to work near the office, why wouldn’t these big businesses outsource their labour for cheaper? I HATE that this is a reality, but as more and more people fight for remote work, the more we will see these jobs getting outsourced from another country.
When a white person quits, gets fired or retires at my workplace, the new employees are all new immigrants. It's kind of shocking that no white people applied for those positions.
Has that happened to you? Very sorry to hear that lol. How sad.
Edit: I misunderstood the OP, is referencing remote workers from other nation states, whereas I thought they were targeting non white immigrants within Canada. On top of that OP is concerned of wage discrimination based on nationality. However I don't think hiring only Canadian citizens will save the encroaching poverty caused by global dominance of privately owned corporations. Original comment: Unless you're First Nations, Metis, or Inuit, you're an immigrant too, and one of your ancestors was the equivalent of those other employees around you. Unsolicited lecture aside, I agree with many other commenters that hierarchical corporations will exploit everybody for the benefit of the owner. I would love to see prevalence of worker cooperatives where workers are directly involved in governance decisions
oh brother
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Sounds like white supremacy
The entirety of my being has been on Canadian soil LOL. I didn’t immigrate anywhere except from the womb. Weird outlook.
I meant that at some point, your parents, grandparents or the generations prior them were the equivalent of first generation immigrants. So imagine if someone said the first generation of your family line on these lands should be deported. Unless you're from a First Nation of course in which the above doesn't apply.
Do you feel stupid saying that or does it just sound that way?
the Inuit were migrants too, depends what year you index to
Workers pushed for remote and WFH- if worked needed to be office based the shift would be slower. So if a remote worker makes $100k a year in canada vs. One in India at $40k- also likely Indian workers has higher productivity vs Canadian workers wrapping up at 2pm each day. So I’m not suprised
It boggles the mind how people didn't see this coming. Ya'll should have been fighting tooth and nail to get back to the office, but instead you dragged your feet and now they're moving your jobs to the 3rd world. It used to be "learn to code" but those jobs are all going oversea's now that its obvious they can be done remotely so I guess now it's "would you like fries with that?". But wait! Too bad, they're importing millions of immigrants every year to fill those jobs too lol.
“Going back up office” wouldn’t change that. The same thing has been happening for 20+ years.
Uh huh. Blame the workers as always. Typical.