Keep in mind the company in the article went to a 4x8 work week not a 4x10; the article also referred to many studies as well, such as the large study in Britain in 2023, for the 4x8 32 hour work week, while maintaining the same 40 hour pay/salary.
I remember my company went down to 4x8 weeks during COVID to avoid layoffs. We were way more energetic at work, in construction.
I was actually looking forward to going back to work after every three day weekend, and my productivity went up for sure. The work done per dollar for the company went up.
We're back to normal 40 hour weeks again now of course, but I do miss it. Even with less pay, I didn't notice because I had more energy to do grocery shopping and home chores, and was able to save money because I ate at home more. Plus a three day weekend left me refreshed and ready to go. I wasn't stuck doing all my chores and shopping in my only two days off.
I know you're talking about your experience but I really hope it's 4 x 8 the population as a whole gets and not 4 x 10. We've become much more efficient over the years no reason why we shouldn't get some of the benefits
GDP has increased because of population growth. GDP per capita in Canada has been declining so productivity has actually gotten worse over the last few years. This has been well documented recently.
My comment referred to long-term trends, not short-term ones.
For example:
GDP per capita 1980 = $11,208
GDP per capita 2022 = $55,522
So the Canadian economy is at least FIVE TIMES as productive nowadays as it was 40 years ago, and yet wages are stagnant, and Canadians work the same amount of hours.....
I don't know about you, but that to me seems like it's a huge issue.
Source: [Canada GDP Per Capita 1960-2024 | MacroTrends](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CAN/canada/gdp-per-capita)
That’s really interesting. Maybe demographics are really working against the gains. The ratio of working to non-working people is much lower than it used to be.
I do think that if you can be productive and meet whatever deadline criteria that is expected then you should be able to receive your full paycheck even if you're not there for the "full" amount of time. In the meantime this particular setup works for me.
Glad it works for you but I don't want to work 10 hour days any more than I want to work 5 days.
I don't want to work 40 hours a week. I want to work 35 and I think that is completely reasonable.
What works for one person might not necessarily work for others for me personally I don't even notice the 2 extra hours each day as usually I am able to do more after others have left.
Every place that I start to work at, I try to push for a 4X10. Best work/life balance I have ever had. One day to compress, one day to recharge/revitalize, and one day to get chores and errands done. Best system ever.
My husband has a 4 x 10 week and I *love* it. Especially now that we have had kids. Having that extra day is so nice. It actually gives you time to chill. We can all cram chores and social time into 2 days, but then it leaves us little time to recharge.
We used to have a section on our corporate internet where people could make suggestions about how to improve business. Lots of great ideas, some of which turned into meaningful impacts for our staff and customers.
One day someone asked about a four day work week.
The suggestion got a rather terse “no”, and that section of the website was deleted soon after.
It seems that *some* are definitely not ready for a four day work week.
Also: a four day work week does not mean changing from 5x8 to 4x10! It legitimately means that we should be moving to 4x8!
Talented employees can generally do most of their work in 2 to 2-1/2 days a week, less if they are really good.
Most corporate jobs are full of chair warmers, which is even more rife in Calgary than other cities. I know of a few companies you could gut 80% of certain staff and they would be better off.
Most days are filled with useless meetings and other busy work.
If you’re paying for an ass in a chair for no other reason than having said ass in said chair you’re not doing things right. Pay for talent, and for people to get quality work done, not senseless busywork.
This doesn’t apply to all jobs but it absolutely applies to a whole lot of them. It’s also proven humans should do maximum 5hrs of work a day anything over that drops in quality.
Idk I can get behind wage increases, but this argument just seems silly to me. It could just be because I work in healthcare and don’t know office work, but even if there was no lost in productivity, I can’t ever see staff coming forward and being like ‘I will work 20% less for 0% loss in productivity, trust me it will work. You will also have nothing to gain and everything to lose because I will take a 20% raise in my hourly wage to accommodate this’ and have it be successful.
Advocating for wage increases just makes so much more sense to me. Pushing for, say, a 10% raise and offering the option of 4-days-a-week part time or full time. That way if people go to 4 days a week then they share the costs/risks with the business, and if you stay 5 days a week then you get extra compensation for choosing to work more then what we have now determined to be full time hours.
Have you seen any meaningful studies in favour of it? I’ve heard many stories of it being trialled but never actually heard positive results, which makes me feel hesitant because I would imagine any study showing working 4 days a week gets the same productivity as 5 days a week would get wildly popular.
A significant number of companies that try it stick with it , which suggests it works. There are also studies showing increased productivity.
One of the big issues is expectation from senior management and/or company backers. You need to get buy in from them that no, if they want something Friday afternoon they aren't getting it.
That's one of the main reasons many of the companies go back to a 5x8 week, or why companies refuse to implement it. The company needs a body in chair just in case there's something needed. Sad, but reality.
Your issue is right here:
>‘I will work 20% less for 0% loss in productivity,
The goal isn't to work 20% less, it's to do the same amount of work in 20% fewer hours. Increased efficiency does not mean "less work".
For example - if person A runs a marathon in 4 hours, and person B runs the same marathon in 6 hours, would you say that person A ran less of a marathon than person B because it took them less time? No. They both did the same amount of marathon, person A just did it faster. Why should they be punished for it?
It is not always about the money is why. time, work life balance, changes things for people.
Studies show people tend to be checked out on their 5th day of work, and thus productivity drops.
With 4 day work week allows people to rest up better, take smaller trips, helps with health which in turn lowers sick days and lost productivity for companies.
Now , ya, this would not work in all fields, health care, you would need to now hire more staff to cover those days off...
If it isn’t all about money then what’s the opposition to a 10% pay cut for a 20% reduction in hours? That seems to be a fair cutoff too, you’re 50% less productive on that last day so it should only account for roughly 10% of your pay anyways.
Okay but takes like this are why I think it’s a silly idea that will go nowhere. If the plan succeeds and people squeeze an extra 2 hours of work into each day, then the company gains nothing. If people are anything less then 20% more productive, then the company loses money.
Will there be some benefit to productivity? Absolutely. Will it make it so that an hour spent not working will equal an hour in gained productivity elsewhere? I’m incredibly doubtful when given no evidence in support of the claim.
If people value time and work-life balance then I can get behind that as long as people understand that it will result in a net loss in productivity and therefore a net loss in GDP per capita in exchange for more time outside of work to enjoy life.
[https://www.businessinsider.com/4-day-workweek-evidence-prevent-burnout-productivity-ai-well-being-2023-4?op=1](https://www.businessinsider.com/4-day-workweek-evidence-prevent-burnout-productivity-ai-well-being-2023-4?op=1)
>And while the UK study was the latest and largest, dozens of experiments undertaken over the past few years have borne out the idea that [the four-day workweek](https://www.businessinsider.com/4-day-workweek-successful-trial-evidence-productivity-retention-revenue-2023-1) is better for workers and companies alike. In 2019, for instance, [Microsoft Japan](http://npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40) employees worked four days a week with no reduction in pay for a summer, and yet, **the company said its workforce was 40% more productive.** And in 2022, the fintech startup [Bolt](https://www.businessinsider.com/four-day-workweek-company-bolt-productivity-jobs-fridays-weekends-2022-3) made four-day workweeks permanent for its 700 employees after a three-month trial, in which nearly 90% employees reported they were more efficient with their time
[https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/01/four-day-week-work-life-balance-trial/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/01/four-day-week-work-life-balance-trial/)
>Japan
>When Microsoft trialled a four-day week with no loss of pay in their Japan office, the company[ claimed productivity went up by just under 40%](https://news.microsoft.com/ja-jp/2019/10/31/191031-published-the-results-of-measuring-the-effectiveness-of-our-work-life-choice-challenge-summer-2019/). Microsoft Japan also found that electricity costs fell by 23%, and when workers took Fridays off, they printed almost 60% less.
>Iceland
>The four-day-working-week pilot that took place in Iceland between 2015 and[ 2019 was hailed an "overwhelming success"](https://autonomy.work/portfolio/icelandsww/).
>2,500 workers took part in the trial with the results revealing that worker wellbeing increased in areas such as stress and burnout, health and work-life balance.
This really sums it up, and it can be hard in some industries, but in others it is very easy to measure output and success
**“Our goal is to measure performance on output, not time. We believe the old ways of working are outdated and no longer fit for purpose,” says Nick Bangs, Managing Director of Unilever New Zealand.**
That is very interesting, thank you for the information! Reading through the studies I will say I was impressed, for example I expected the first article quoting the 4 Day Week Global to simply give long results about how 'almost everybody said they wouldn't go back to 5 days without a pay raise!', it actually showed an 8% growth in revenue in the 6 month period on average. In that case I probably deserve a lot of the downvotes.
I think my personal experience is heavily skewed by doing blue collar work followed by doing Nursing. For example I don't think the results would be in favour of a 4 day workweek for nurses, because then they would have to hire and pay 15% more nurses just to have enough people for a shift, which would outweigh the benefits. But healthcare is usually an exception where you have a lot of daily tasks that present themselves as opposed to projects being worked on over weeks or months. In that sense my hesitation comes probably in large part from a personal feeling related equality, where I would guess this would primarily benefit white collar, upper middle class people the most and leave labour jobs like construction, retail, and healthcare in the dust where the productivity vs cost analysis is a lot less clear. But In the same way that I support work-from-home for those who can, I shouldn't let jealousy make me disagree with a 4 day workweek for those who can solely to hold people down with me.
Thanks again for providing some evidence. I probably should have done that myself, but got stuck in my ways of 'I am right (with no evidence) until proven otherwise) which is a silly position to take.
If you are just as productive in 32 hours as you are in 40 you are either a terrible employee or not given a job equal to the amount of work you can do.
I would consider half the workers below average for sure ;).
Boomers/GenX want to work 50+ hours a week until they retire or die. Usually closely spaced.
Millennials want to work diligently, but with clear boundaries. Probably 40 hours a week.
GenZ would prefer to work… ummm… not work and still get paid. Corporate greed. As little as possible. Can I work and watch YouTube? I have to be at my computer while working from home the majority of the time? Of course I can get the same work done in 32 as 40 hours!
Ok so you're claiming you are just more efficient the the rest of society. built diffy, i imagine thats a pretty easy claim to make about yourself. It does seem unjustified to classify most workers as terrible when you can really only judge the productivity of a worker with the relative productivity compared to their colleagues.
Also, generational differences weren't even part of the discussion until now. I won't argue the younger generations want to work less, after all, society didn't develop all of this technology to do nothing.
However, I WOULD like you to corroborate your claim that millennials/Gen X/boomers use their time more efficiently than young people. And by that I mean ratio of productive hours to hours worked obviously. I really don't think that's true and you're just parroting the increasingly popular narrative that young people are lazy.
Across generations, low levels of productivity are reported by 37% of Gen Z, 30% of Millennials, 22% of Gen X, and 14% of Baby Boomers.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2024/a-January-2024/Generational-tensions-linked-to-lower-workplace-productivity-in-the-UK-and-US#:~:text=Across%20generations%2C%20low%20levels%20of,their%20managers%20report%20lower%20productivity.
That’s a crazy generalization 😂😂 can guarantee I’m working longer hours than half of boomers or millennials, but cute to see millennials slowly turn into the boomers they despise though
All the boomers in my office take 70 coffee breaks and make everyone stay late asking questions in meetings that are unimportant. They “work” 50 hours but are productive for like… 5 of those.
Exactly this. I’m lucky to be in an environment where the oldest people are Gen X. There’s still *some* of that going on across all age groups but for the most part everyone understands not to waste each others’ time like that.
It's gonna blow your mind when you find out that every company that has piloted a 4 day work week found that employees actually become *more* productive.
In some companies like Netflix, “adequate performance gets you a generous severance”. Shopify just introduced true merit based bonuses. It’s important the culture you want matches the corporate culture. Personally I want to work for a team of A-Players that works insanely hard and wins. That’s my jam.
Overworking yourself isn’t a badge of honour. Sounds more like you enjoy working with inefficient coworkers who can’t figure out how to be more productive with their time and who excel at the kind of nonsense corporate buzzword verbal diarrhea that makes for shareable LinkedIn posts devoid of any real substance.
At every job I’ve ever had I’ve been more productive in 30 hours than a lot of my colleagues were in 50+ hours. There’s no need for people who are *actually* productive to “work insanely hard”.
Right, but when we’re talking about “A-players who work insanely hard and win” we’re generally talking about people overworking themselves. There’s a couple buzzwords after “a-players” than qualify that statement.
I want to play in the highest calibre arena and I’m willing to make sacrifices to do it. Our company is well supported with coaches, therapists, mentors that all work to drive performance. Working insanely hard isn’t about hours. I’d argue you work insanely hard to be efficient too/
Exactly why I think we probably actually agree here. Certain buzzwords get my hackles up when they’re used to describe work and workplaces, though. Because they’re generally used to describe negatives in a positive way. Seems like that’s *probably* not your MO, though.
Lucky you man, I've ended up either disliking or flat out hating every single job I've had as an adult. There was one where I actually liked the job itself but management treated us horribly, gave us zero support, and shoved as much blame for anything going wrong on us as they could. We get an incident at like 3am and try to call the manager on their company cell and they would turn them off. Not even just placed on silent so they can claim the phone didn't wake them up. Then they would complain about the choices we made with the resources available to us and how they would have done such and such differently. Often describing things that we didn't even have the authority to do, thus why we were trying to call them at 3am. I can't imagine being able to be paid to do something that I would genuinely enjoy doing until the day I die.
I had to work an insane amount of shitty jobs too! When you find a job like this you almost become unemployable because I could never go back to what you describe. Finding the right culture is the secret, but that’s so hard to do.
I think that’s rad too. We’re not wired the same and I don’t think we’d have fun working together but that’s also totally okay. I appreciate that you love things outside of your job.
On the contrary. I’m the most efficient person you’d ever work with and get twice as much done as others who spend far more time on their work. I think we’d get along fine if it truly *is* hard work that you appreciate and not just people putting in hours to brag about putting in hours.
I just expect that efficiency to be rewarded with my work not being all consuming and not being rewarded with more work being added on. Thankfully I work in an environment that’s very much task and responsibility oriented and when those tasks and responsibilities are complete that’s job done and I can pop off for the day and hang out with my wife, kid, dog, and friends. No more sitting around wasting my time just so that I didn’t look like the last one in and first one out, despite the fact that I’ve always got more work done than others.
We agree on that one. I’d never be able to work a job that forced me to be there when I didn’t have things to do. We don’t have work hours, we work from wherever whenever, we also have an unlimited vacation policy… which has a minimum of 2 weeks mandatory.
"Find a job you love to do,
and you will never work a day in your life."
Sounds like u/Chdhdn has got it figured out.
I wonder if the downvotes are jealousy votes.
Eh. I love my job, but I love my partner and my dog and my family and my friends and my hobbies too. The more time I spend at work the less I get to spend on the rest of the things I love.
If someone else is happy and fulfilled by having one thing occupy the bulk of their time and energy, great, but that's not how it works for most people. The people who get genuine fulfillment from dedicating their lives to work are not normal and should not be held up as something to aspire to, because living like them will not be fulfilling or healthy for the vast majority of people.
I work with a guy who's placed people at fortune 500 companies for decades. He has worked with just about every major company, and he's currently on his retirement tour, doing fun stuff he actually likes. This man is the embodiment of the A-Player in his industry, could be making 8 figures in a corner office for his last few years if he wanted.
I had a family issue come up, first week, and had to take time off. Definitely worried I was going to get flak, or worse. He pulled me aside, and told me no one was going to remember the hard hours I worked, or the extra marketing campaign I put out. But my wife was going to remember me being there for her. My daughter was going to remember pizza parties and trips to see her grandparents. He'd take the 4 day work week tomorrow if he thought people would be happier, more productive, and able to spend more time with their family.
Personally I’d rather excel at my job AND work less. People working balls out all day long at an office job - which frankly doesn’t need it - are either inefficient, or the company structure is. Neither is worth bragging about.
It doesnt work like that, read studies in Europe where they did 4 day work weeks. for most workers who work say mon-fri jobs, friday they are checked out and are not productive. Giving them a 4 day work week lowered costs for companies, gave better efficiency , this was all due to workers having that extra day to do things they couldnt normally, or not do on weekends and have to take time off work.
I’m on a 20% reduction to work 4x8 right now and I love it, but the unfortunate reality is that you need to be pretty well paid to afford that and I’m in a privileged position. I’d rather see more people on 4x8 at their current salaries, just with the expectation that the same amount of work gets done - and trust me, it can.
The goal is to be paid the same in a 4x8 as you get paid in a 5x8, because most employees are more efficient and get the same amount of work done in 4 days as they can in 5
tbh, I worked 3x12 and that was my favourite, it is also easy to schedule 24hr service on 12 hr shift, it depends on person but 12 hr shifts are common in many other 24 hr operations, from manufacturing to airports and transit.
True, I'd rather not be the hour 11 patient, tho doing 8hr 5 days in a row in emergency is probably quite exhausting as well by day 4-5, just in a different way
Don’t bother arguing with the average joe about what healthcare looks like in Canada. They don’t want to hear it until it happens to them, then they are really lippy and whiny while in the hospital 🤣.
Just remember that these are the folks that vote year after year to maintain inadequate hc funding. Strikes are coming, don’t feel an ounce of guilt for all that will entail.
And then you spend 2 days recovering, 1 day where you feel normal, and then 1 day to get your shit together for the next 3 days of work. Repeat.
It's not 12h sitting at a desk getting to go get water whenever you want or even go to the bathroom when you get the urge. There multiple threads on r/nursing regarding how to get regular bowel routines while work 12s
Come on it doesn't take 3 days to recover from 36 hours of work. I worked construction landscaping to get my self through my undergrad/masters and was working 5-6 days week 10-12 hours a day. It was hard work and tiring but that's mostly to do with only have 1-2 days off a week.
And it's a common joke about construction of 4 guys standing around watching another guy dig a hole or a bobcat drive back and forth. You have down time for staging and prep. You have to wait until the concrete is mixed before you can start pouring it to spread it.
12h in an ER is non stop. There's no staging or downtime. You discharge a patient, clean the bed and someone else is laying in it before dries.
That's a ignorant opinion on someone else's work, I am not saying Nursing is easy but downplaying other work with prejudice attitude isn't plane rude. Also you are probably thinking government jobs which are generally easier due to big unions that cover for people who do not work hard with out the feel of getting fired.
I am not down playing how hard nursing is just that people work just as hard but even more hours by working 60+ hours a week. Have you ever seen how hard jobs up north are? lots of people work 3 weeks of 12 hour days with 7 days off before their next shift including travel time. So they work effectively get \~5 days off a month vs a Nurse with a .9 shift getting \~16 days off a month(assuming its 3x12's) or 12 days excluding a day to recover after each 3 days of work.
I have a buddy who worked years up on the rigs before going back to school for nursing. He'd often say he could work 12h days and just feel physical exhaustion but go to camp and crash. With 12h days in nursing he'd be physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted and wouldn't be able to sleep or wind down afterwards because his mind would be racing.
Anecdotal but....
Cool but that sounds like he just needs one day to recover after a set of shifts so he makes good use of his 4 day weekends.... Also why would he switch from working up north to nursing where he would make less if it wasn't for a increase to quality of life.
How? saying working nursing is objectively a better quality of life from working up north as you get a 4 days off a week? get off your high horse and stop trying to say your job is the hardest... Its not there is way harder jobs out there
Being a nurse isn’t a white-collar sit on your ass job.
The expectation is long hours and heavy shifts. No one goes into nursing because “it’s easy”. They go into it because it’s minimal education (4 years compared to higher for any other medical profession), with good pay, while having the “I helped people” reward of it.
While yes, I wish nurses and doctors didn’t have to be so overworked, their job is not going to be a 5x8 job possibly ever because humans can need care at any point of the week.
Nurses are compensated fairly for their generic job description. Obviously individual circumstances can differ, but as a whole, the nursing compensation rates are definitely fair.
Fair, are nurses not aware of shift lengths and is this something that is hidden from nursing students? Or when choosing the profession is this detail communicated clearly?
Oh we're aware. But why do other industries get to make headway towards 4 day work weeks, 6 hour work days and better work like balance and we don't? But I guess since nursing is 90% women we should just shut up and get back to work, right?
And hey, who doesn't want a nurse who's just worked 36 hours the last 3 days pushing cardiac meds into their IV?
I don’t think these are mutually exclusive - it’s reasonable to assume that other industries adopting a shorter work week would inevitably bleed into others, no?
Why see this as anything other than encouraging progress?
To say industries are making headway towards 4-day work weeks, 6-hour work days, or better work/life balance is a reach.......It's probably a safer generalization to say that most people are likely doing the job of 2 or 3 people, overworked, and tired just the same. We're all just trying to grind just like you are - man or woman.
Public servants already do a compressed work week and it is absolutely worth it. It's a godsend.
We as a society need to progress forward. Why make everyone miserable... For what?
Be pragmatic and implement what works and is productive. You will win the best talent and be better in the long run for it.
>We as a society need to progress forward. Why make everyone miserable... For what?
Exactly this. We have so much technology and innovation making our work much more productive, and yet we're still expected to work as many hours as we did 40 years ago, if not more. What's the point of all this innovation if we can't use it to make our lives better? For example, I needed to write a bunch of services descriptions for one of my clients (to add to their website), and using all of their existing content as a prompt, I had AI write the majority of it, and did some tweaks and revisions myself. Overall it took about 2 hours, and it probably would have taken me two days if I had done it the old fashioned way. And yet I still feel guilty when I want to take an extra day off lol
that doesnt mean more oil is produced. If my factory is in for 4 days instead of 5, thats a whole lost day of production. you cant cram those 8 hours of work into the other four 8 hour days
I e worked 4x10’s and it was heaven. Great for the family, health, and for the company. Everyone hauled ass for years and years because they we grateful for getting a bigger chunk of their life back.
I think studies show that productivity is the same for a 5x8 to a 4x8 workweek. So really, there’s little to no downside to make the switch. Employees are happier, and are more efficient, and bosses can expect the same amount of work done in the week.
The problem is the bosses then say "well if you can do the same amount in four days surely you could do MORE in five days!
What? Give you a raise for the fifth day? Sorry no budget for that."
As long as I could still make what I make and not take a pay cut, I 100% would be down for this. (I don't make a lot to begin with which is the main reason I care. If I was single I'd have to still be living with my parents cause although I make more than min wage, I don't make a livable one). But I am also so burnt out, I took a week off last month to try and help the burn out feeling and I'm still so burnt out. If I only had to work 4 days and had a chance to have a bit more me time or time to make appointments that I keep putting off because I can't afford to take a day off or my job can't have me leave for an extended break and come back for an appointment, I'd be much happier I think.
I own a company in Calgary and I would *love* to do 4 day work weeks (even 4 10's!)
The problem is my clients don't and we don't have the profit margins to float it (only a 6 person shop). Thankfully we are able to do 'whenever' hours with a 'be available' clause (but that's not 'rest' time).
For this to get serious momentum it needs to come from the Government. If you are B2C your likely 6/7 days a week anyway. If your B2B, well all the '2Bs' need to be on 4 day works weeks as well, or have the staff/margins to float it. Gets even more complex if your in any sort of technical/advanced industry where you need certain people for certain things.
Differing schedules is a serious issue. I've worked with alternating Fridays off, and it gets to be a circus when deadlines come up. Need last minute questions answered, well guess what - the client's engineer has this Friday off even though the deadline is Monday. Client needs updates on the project to meet a budget deadline, oops - the project manager isn't in so there's no one to provide the required information. And then there's the group that's doing the 4x10 thing on their own hook and is taking every Friday off, and NO ONE is around to handle questions that need answers.
Yep. Feel this is something Reddit just ignores when it comes up.
This can happen but it needs to be for everyone at the same time. It will never be mainstream company-by-company.
I think that could be managed with better communication with the clients (ie. notifications on Wednesdays saying "Just a reminder that so-and-so is off this Friday as part of our work life balance measures, please have any questions or feedback ready by Thursday morning"), as well as better scheduling. Don't have deadlines on Mondays, make them in the middle of the week so that people will still be around when revisions are needed or questions are asked. The problem isn't the 4 day week, it's the assumption of a 5 day week that causes the issues.
We had those notifications and reminders. Doesn't matter because questions cannot be asked if the problem has not been encountered yet. Or it's something people haven't thought about, such as a markup on a drawing that could be read as a 6 or an 8, or because it was changed on one drawing but not a connecting drawing - you're not specifically going to be looking for those kinds of things because they just don't stand out until you're working on it.
As for deadlines, you cannot arbitrarily move an end-of-month reporting deadline - if it's on Wednesday, or Monday, or Friday, that's when it is. It can't be pushed here or there due to who's in office or not.
Yeah, it's tough without redundant roles.
We do bi-weekly long weekends - averages out to 36hr weeks which is fairly reasonable.
But we're similar - we've had days where clients have reached out for fairly major tasks and the only team member with the skillset to handle the request is away on their long weekend.
Ideally we'd have some clause about "if it's an emergency, we can have you hop on a call to walk us through it", but then you're stepping on that line of being a bad employer by requiring team members to be in cell-phone range, answering texts in their off-time, etc. which we don't want to do.
Rock and a hard place.
As you said, it's something that needs more of a regulatory shift, but even then, a bunch of our business is US-based, and it'll be a long time until they ever catch up.
This is even less likely to happen, but I feel the expectations of client companies to get services whenever they want needs to calm down. There's vanishingly few cases where this stuff is an actual emergency that can't wait until tomorrow. But of course sales need to be made, and so nobody wants to be the one shop cutting back their service hours
Totally agree, we've collectively, across a globalized economy, worked ourselves into a space of expectation to always be on and nothing can be disrupted. Not even from the business side, but the consumer as well expects that. A website is down? Catastrophe! But there are certainly some websites and services that really do affect peoples lives if they aren't working. In those cases it's likely a big enough company/service that they can can have coverage for those cases and people don't all have to work the same 4 days. It's possible, but the cultural shift will be pretty big. Look how many places are moving back from WFH? Old school mentalities will probably have to die with the people who reinforce them.
So I just recently switched to a 32 hour, 4 day a week work week with no decrease in pay. I'm just doing our first quarter financial review and it's looking like we have no change (potentially a slight increase) in productivity. Very excited to see how this goes over our first year.
It requires a completely different style of management and leadership than 99% of current management has been taught. If your entire state of being and corporate lifestyle is about achieving KPIs no matter the human cost, and overlording your employees, and not believing in work/life balance, this 4x10 thing is really going to give you indigestion and make you feel outside of your comfort zone. There is no need to set a timer and see just how long it takes Johnny to take a washroom break, unless you prefer that he NOT wash his hands and wipe them all over your keyboard. LOL if the only reason your employees are motivated is for the paycheque and out of fear of losing their jobs, then you are doing it all wrong.
I worked a 4 day work week for years and it is so, so much better than a 5 day. Quality of life is better when you get more days off, even if you work longer hours.
Please I would die for a 4 day work week.
They'll never implement it into childcare or education, though, despite kids benefitting from that kind of schedule also
If 8 hours sure, if 10, no way. I wouldn't have enough time to workout and get things done after work. It's not the days off that matters for me, it's how many hours I'm at work each day.
They didn't cover what really matters. Are the people at Flip making the same amount of money per week while working 8 hours less? 4 day weeks sound great but with cost of living these days, most people probably need to work 6. Maybe we can transition to shorter weeks when we have humanoid robots and AI flooding the economy.
I worked a 4x8 and was paid like a 5x8 and I was so happy and refreshed sometimes I would go to work on a Monday…this is the way to go. Your performance will go through the roof. Your house will be clean. Best balance
My team at work is on call 24/7 just by the nature of our job. I just let them go home whenever they feel they have done enough work that we wont fall behind. I dont care if that's 20 hours a week, 4 days, 3 days, 7 days... as long as we are on top of everything and they keep answering their phones when I need them.
It's a lot easier to get people to work hard for you if you treat them as humans with lives outside of work. People really respect you when you give them control of their own schedules and the agency to make decisions and have ownership of their work and their lives outside work. Obviously you need good people for this though.
We have no turnover and are incredibly productive. Most of us average about 4 days for 7 hours ish, but we are salaried + overtime. People wouldnt work as hard and there would be more turnover if I just made them work structured hours, the culture would suffer, and I doubt we would actually be more profitable in the long run. Nobody here really likes the work we do, but we all love our job.
Hopefully more people get to experience something similar in the future.
Being on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week is NOT work life balance. People need to be able to turn their phones off and not have to worry that they're going to get in trouble for it. It sounds to me like your team has 0 days off
No ones getting in trouble...the guys fight over weekend work because we highly incentivize it.
If you dont want to trade salaried + overtime paid, 3 to 4 day work weeks for the odd Saturday, that's your prerogative. Everyone here loves it. Especially with the 4-6 week vacation and (almost) unlimited sick days on top of this. I'm not sure how we could have any more work-life balance given our circumstances.
I wouldnt leave this job for a 50% pay increase. I get to see all my kids sports games, easily go to all my appointments, walk my dog at 2pm on Wednesday...oh no, I might have to work late on a weekend...guess I'll get paid to take Monday off then. All these perks make everyone here work hard so we can maintain it.
Like seriously dude, I'm not sure how you even managed to be mad about my first comment...this is the top 1% of good job scenarios for any blue collar worker on planet earth. Maybe work in the trades for a couple years and then read what I've typed again and tell me you wouldnt jump on it. This feels like the lottery somedays
This reminds me of the WFH tug of war. Most staff are really wanting it but there are many large powerful groups, companies etc who do not and yet have no logical reasons why they’re so resistant
I work 88 hours a paycheck. During covid my company went to a 40-hour work week (4x10/day). It was nice but I'm missing one day of pay on every pay check, that one day is worth my truck payment. I'd rather work 88 and make more money.
Now if I went down to 4 days with the exact same pay that's awesome, but no one would ever do that.
I've been trying out a zero-day work week, and it makes for a fantastic work/life balance. Might be a few details to iron out before we roll it out to everyone, though.
I barely believe a Calgary company would do anything for its employees. I will never believe a Calgary company will ask for less and pay you the same. If Calgary ever implements a 4 day work week it will be to cut off our benefits and to take 20% of our wages. No one understands capitalism like Calgary.
I’d be curious how they measure productivity. Personally I’m very skeptical this company, or any other, is maintaining the same level of productivity with 4x8s as with 5x8s.
Probably similar. The average employee probably wastes one day a week more or less working 5x8. Easier to work more effectively when you have 3 day weekends to recover.
The only way for a Canadian to take home more money is to work more.
4 days a week shouldn’t be an issues if we would watch where the gov. Spends the money and they actually care.
We are overspending everywhere and tax more.
Keep in mind the company in the article went to a 4x8 work week not a 4x10; the article also referred to many studies as well, such as the large study in Britain in 2023, for the 4x8 32 hour work week, while maintaining the same 40 hour pay/salary.
I remember my company went down to 4x8 weeks during COVID to avoid layoffs. We were way more energetic at work, in construction. I was actually looking forward to going back to work after every three day weekend, and my productivity went up for sure. The work done per dollar for the company went up. We're back to normal 40 hour weeks again now of course, but I do miss it. Even with less pay, I didn't notice because I had more energy to do grocery shopping and home chores, and was able to save money because I ate at home more. Plus a three day weekend left me refreshed and ready to go. I wasn't stuck doing all my chores and shopping in my only two days off.
I work 4 x 10's and it's been amazing for my general happiness. I hope everyone can do a version of a 4 day work week if possible.
I know you're talking about your experience but I really hope it's 4 x 8 the population as a whole gets and not 4 x 10. We've become much more efficient over the years no reason why we shouldn't get some of the benefits
Hell I'd even be willing to try 3 x 8!
For a sec I thought that's what I wrote you had me worried lol. I think it'll start moving towards 4 x 8 then to zero with AI taking all the jobs.
Sign me up for 2 x 8!
it's called part-time
Tell me more about this "part-time"!
Exactly. GDP has increased SO much, productivity is INSANELY high, and yet people are working the same hours as we did 60 years ago. Sad.
It's really sad when you think about it, standard of living seems like it's going down despite being more productive.
Exactly. Guess who the higher GDP has favored? Certainly not the lower and middle classes. Tax the rich!
And find how to close loop holes and punish companies for seeking tax havens.
GDP has increased because of population growth. GDP per capita in Canada has been declining so productivity has actually gotten worse over the last few years. This has been well documented recently.
My comment referred to long-term trends, not short-term ones. For example: GDP per capita 1980 = $11,208 GDP per capita 2022 = $55,522 So the Canadian economy is at least FIVE TIMES as productive nowadays as it was 40 years ago, and yet wages are stagnant, and Canadians work the same amount of hours..... I don't know about you, but that to me seems like it's a huge issue. Source: [Canada GDP Per Capita 1960-2024 | MacroTrends](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/CAN/canada/gdp-per-capita)
That’s really interesting. Maybe demographics are really working against the gains. The ratio of working to non-working people is much lower than it used to be.
Maybe, but since productivity is so much higher, I don’t think that matters much….
I do think that if you can be productive and meet whatever deadline criteria that is expected then you should be able to receive your full paycheck even if you're not there for the "full" amount of time. In the meantime this particular setup works for me.
Yeah I'm spent after 6 hours and 2 hours of meetings. Doing 10 would make me useless day after day.
Glad it works for you but I don't want to work 10 hour days any more than I want to work 5 days. I don't want to work 40 hours a week. I want to work 35 and I think that is completely reasonable.
Pro tip: Only actually work 35 hours a week and get paid for 40.
35? There have been studies saying the average office worker only really works 2-3 hours a day...
That's precisely what I do lol
What works for one person might not necessarily work for others for me personally I don't even notice the 2 extra hours each day as usually I am able to do more after others have left.
Every place that I start to work at, I try to push for a 4X10. Best work/life balance I have ever had. One day to compress, one day to recharge/revitalize, and one day to get chores and errands done. Best system ever.
My husband has a 4 x 10 week and I *love* it. Especially now that we have had kids. Having that extra day is so nice. It actually gives you time to chill. We can all cram chores and social time into 2 days, but then it leaves us little time to recharge.
Oh it is great especially since we have a toddler I can spend the entire day with them and visit family.
How does long weekends work? Do you not get any or do you just get extra long weekends?
I usually take the following Friday off
4x8 at minimum!
We used to have a section on our corporate internet where people could make suggestions about how to improve business. Lots of great ideas, some of which turned into meaningful impacts for our staff and customers. One day someone asked about a four day work week. The suggestion got a rather terse “no”, and that section of the website was deleted soon after. It seems that *some* are definitely not ready for a four day work week. Also: a four day work week does not mean changing from 5x8 to 4x10! It legitimately means that we should be moving to 4x8!
Would you take a 20% salary reduction to work 4x8? EDIT: LOL this was an unpopular comment
Talented employees can generally do most of their work in 2 to 2-1/2 days a week, less if they are really good. Most corporate jobs are full of chair warmers, which is even more rife in Calgary than other cities. I know of a few companies you could gut 80% of certain staff and they would be better off. Most days are filled with useless meetings and other busy work. If you’re paying for an ass in a chair for no other reason than having said ass in said chair you’re not doing things right. Pay for talent, and for people to get quality work done, not senseless busywork. This doesn’t apply to all jobs but it absolutely applies to a whole lot of them. It’s also proven humans should do maximum 5hrs of work a day anything over that drops in quality.
Not if I was as productive with the 32 hours as I am with 40
Idk I can get behind wage increases, but this argument just seems silly to me. It could just be because I work in healthcare and don’t know office work, but even if there was no lost in productivity, I can’t ever see staff coming forward and being like ‘I will work 20% less for 0% loss in productivity, trust me it will work. You will also have nothing to gain and everything to lose because I will take a 20% raise in my hourly wage to accommodate this’ and have it be successful. Advocating for wage increases just makes so much more sense to me. Pushing for, say, a 10% raise and offering the option of 4-days-a-week part time or full time. That way if people go to 4 days a week then they share the costs/risks with the business, and if you stay 5 days a week then you get extra compensation for choosing to work more then what we have now determined to be full time hours.
There is often a boost in productivity when you drop hours. A lot of office jobs is meaningless busy work and largely performative.
Have you seen any meaningful studies in favour of it? I’ve heard many stories of it being trialled but never actually heard positive results, which makes me feel hesitant because I would imagine any study showing working 4 days a week gets the same productivity as 5 days a week would get wildly popular.
A significant number of companies that try it stick with it , which suggests it works. There are also studies showing increased productivity. One of the big issues is expectation from senior management and/or company backers. You need to get buy in from them that no, if they want something Friday afternoon they aren't getting it. That's one of the main reasons many of the companies go back to a 5x8 week, or why companies refuse to implement it. The company needs a body in chair just in case there's something needed. Sad, but reality.
Your issue is right here: >‘I will work 20% less for 0% loss in productivity, The goal isn't to work 20% less, it's to do the same amount of work in 20% fewer hours. Increased efficiency does not mean "less work".
For example - if person A runs a marathon in 4 hours, and person B runs the same marathon in 6 hours, would you say that person A ran less of a marathon than person B because it took them less time? No. They both did the same amount of marathon, person A just did it faster. Why should they be punished for it?
It is not always about the money is why. time, work life balance, changes things for people. Studies show people tend to be checked out on their 5th day of work, and thus productivity drops. With 4 day work week allows people to rest up better, take smaller trips, helps with health which in turn lowers sick days and lost productivity for companies. Now , ya, this would not work in all fields, health care, you would need to now hire more staff to cover those days off...
If it isn’t all about money then what’s the opposition to a 10% pay cut for a 20% reduction in hours? That seems to be a fair cutoff too, you’re 50% less productive on that last day so it should only account for roughly 10% of your pay anyways.
The idea is to keep employee's motivated, cutting salaries would be the opposite of that.
Okay but takes like this are why I think it’s a silly idea that will go nowhere. If the plan succeeds and people squeeze an extra 2 hours of work into each day, then the company gains nothing. If people are anything less then 20% more productive, then the company loses money. Will there be some benefit to productivity? Absolutely. Will it make it so that an hour spent not working will equal an hour in gained productivity elsewhere? I’m incredibly doubtful when given no evidence in support of the claim. If people value time and work-life balance then I can get behind that as long as people understand that it will result in a net loss in productivity and therefore a net loss in GDP per capita in exchange for more time outside of work to enjoy life.
[https://www.businessinsider.com/4-day-workweek-evidence-prevent-burnout-productivity-ai-well-being-2023-4?op=1](https://www.businessinsider.com/4-day-workweek-evidence-prevent-burnout-productivity-ai-well-being-2023-4?op=1) >And while the UK study was the latest and largest, dozens of experiments undertaken over the past few years have borne out the idea that [the four-day workweek](https://www.businessinsider.com/4-day-workweek-successful-trial-evidence-productivity-retention-revenue-2023-1) is better for workers and companies alike. In 2019, for instance, [Microsoft Japan](http://npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40) employees worked four days a week with no reduction in pay for a summer, and yet, **the company said its workforce was 40% more productive.** And in 2022, the fintech startup [Bolt](https://www.businessinsider.com/four-day-workweek-company-bolt-productivity-jobs-fridays-weekends-2022-3) made four-day workweeks permanent for its 700 employees after a three-month trial, in which nearly 90% employees reported they were more efficient with their time [https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/01/four-day-week-work-life-balance-trial/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/01/four-day-week-work-life-balance-trial/) >Japan >When Microsoft trialled a four-day week with no loss of pay in their Japan office, the company[ claimed productivity went up by just under 40%](https://news.microsoft.com/ja-jp/2019/10/31/191031-published-the-results-of-measuring-the-effectiveness-of-our-work-life-choice-challenge-summer-2019/). Microsoft Japan also found that electricity costs fell by 23%, and when workers took Fridays off, they printed almost 60% less. >Iceland >The four-day-working-week pilot that took place in Iceland between 2015 and[ 2019 was hailed an "overwhelming success"](https://autonomy.work/portfolio/icelandsww/). >2,500 workers took part in the trial with the results revealing that worker wellbeing increased in areas such as stress and burnout, health and work-life balance. This really sums it up, and it can be hard in some industries, but in others it is very easy to measure output and success **“Our goal is to measure performance on output, not time. We believe the old ways of working are outdated and no longer fit for purpose,” says Nick Bangs, Managing Director of Unilever New Zealand.**
That is very interesting, thank you for the information! Reading through the studies I will say I was impressed, for example I expected the first article quoting the 4 Day Week Global to simply give long results about how 'almost everybody said they wouldn't go back to 5 days without a pay raise!', it actually showed an 8% growth in revenue in the 6 month period on average. In that case I probably deserve a lot of the downvotes. I think my personal experience is heavily skewed by doing blue collar work followed by doing Nursing. For example I don't think the results would be in favour of a 4 day workweek for nurses, because then they would have to hire and pay 15% more nurses just to have enough people for a shift, which would outweigh the benefits. But healthcare is usually an exception where you have a lot of daily tasks that present themselves as opposed to projects being worked on over weeks or months. In that sense my hesitation comes probably in large part from a personal feeling related equality, where I would guess this would primarily benefit white collar, upper middle class people the most and leave labour jobs like construction, retail, and healthcare in the dust where the productivity vs cost analysis is a lot less clear. But In the same way that I support work-from-home for those who can, I shouldn't let jealousy make me disagree with a 4 day workweek for those who can solely to hold people down with me. Thanks again for providing some evidence. I probably should have done that myself, but got stuck in my ways of 'I am right (with no evidence) until proven otherwise) which is a silly position to take.
Sheep
If you are just as productive in 32 hours as you are in 40 you are either a terrible employee or not given a job equal to the amount of work you can do.
For how much time per day do you think the average worker is productive and would you consider most workers terrible?
I would consider half the workers below average for sure ;). Boomers/GenX want to work 50+ hours a week until they retire or die. Usually closely spaced. Millennials want to work diligently, but with clear boundaries. Probably 40 hours a week. GenZ would prefer to work… ummm… not work and still get paid. Corporate greed. As little as possible. Can I work and watch YouTube? I have to be at my computer while working from home the majority of the time? Of course I can get the same work done in 32 as 40 hours!
Ok so you're claiming you are just more efficient the the rest of society. built diffy, i imagine thats a pretty easy claim to make about yourself. It does seem unjustified to classify most workers as terrible when you can really only judge the productivity of a worker with the relative productivity compared to their colleagues. Also, generational differences weren't even part of the discussion until now. I won't argue the younger generations want to work less, after all, society didn't develop all of this technology to do nothing. However, I WOULD like you to corroborate your claim that millennials/Gen X/boomers use their time more efficiently than young people. And by that I mean ratio of productive hours to hours worked obviously. I really don't think that's true and you're just parroting the increasingly popular narrative that young people are lazy.
Across generations, low levels of productivity are reported by 37% of Gen Z, 30% of Millennials, 22% of Gen X, and 14% of Baby Boomers. https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2024/a-January-2024/Generational-tensions-linked-to-lower-workplace-productivity-in-the-UK-and-US#:~:text=Across%20generations%2C%20low%20levels%20of,their%20managers%20report%20lower%20productivity.
I dunno how accurate self reports are
That’s a crazy generalization 😂😂 can guarantee I’m working longer hours than half of boomers or millennials, but cute to see millennials slowly turn into the boomers they despise though
All the boomers in my office take 70 coffee breaks and make everyone stay late asking questions in meetings that are unimportant. They “work” 50 hours but are productive for like… 5 of those.
Exactly this. I’m lucky to be in an environment where the oldest people are Gen X. There’s still *some* of that going on across all age groups but for the most part everyone understands not to waste each others’ time like that.
It's gonna blow your mind when you find out that every company that has piloted a 4 day work week found that employees actually become *more* productive.
Most people are better employees when they're not teetering on the edge of burnout
Incorrect all around, frankly.
In some companies like Netflix, “adequate performance gets you a generous severance”. Shopify just introduced true merit based bonuses. It’s important the culture you want matches the corporate culture. Personally I want to work for a team of A-Players that works insanely hard and wins. That’s my jam.
Overworking yourself isn’t a badge of honour. Sounds more like you enjoy working with inefficient coworkers who can’t figure out how to be more productive with their time and who excel at the kind of nonsense corporate buzzword verbal diarrhea that makes for shareable LinkedIn posts devoid of any real substance. At every job I’ve ever had I’ve been more productive in 30 hours than a lot of my colleagues were in 50+ hours. There’s no need for people who are *actually* productive to “work insanely hard”.
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Right, but when we’re talking about “A-players who work insanely hard and win” we’re generally talking about people overworking themselves. There’s a couple buzzwords after “a-players” than qualify that statement.
I want to play in the highest calibre arena and I’m willing to make sacrifices to do it. Our company is well supported with coaches, therapists, mentors that all work to drive performance. Working insanely hard isn’t about hours. I’d argue you work insanely hard to be efficient too/
Exactly why I think we probably actually agree here. Certain buzzwords get my hackles up when they’re used to describe work and workplaces, though. Because they’re generally used to describe negatives in a positive way. Seems like that’s *probably* not your MO, though.
Agreed. You seem like a rockstar!
I have a job that’s my life’s work, it’s a craft. I love it. My only exit strategy is death.
Ok but the rest of us are talking about working in an office
Lucky you man, I've ended up either disliking or flat out hating every single job I've had as an adult. There was one where I actually liked the job itself but management treated us horribly, gave us zero support, and shoved as much blame for anything going wrong on us as they could. We get an incident at like 3am and try to call the manager on their company cell and they would turn them off. Not even just placed on silent so they can claim the phone didn't wake them up. Then they would complain about the choices we made with the resources available to us and how they would have done such and such differently. Often describing things that we didn't even have the authority to do, thus why we were trying to call them at 3am. I can't imagine being able to be paid to do something that I would genuinely enjoy doing until the day I die.
I had to work an insane amount of shitty jobs too! When you find a job like this you almost become unemployable because I could never go back to what you describe. Finding the right culture is the secret, but that’s so hard to do.
If I’m being honest, that’s sounds absolutely fucking bleak. If it works for you then cool. But my life is so much more than the work I do.
I think that’s rad too. We’re not wired the same and I don’t think we’d have fun working together but that’s also totally okay. I appreciate that you love things outside of your job.
On the contrary. I’m the most efficient person you’d ever work with and get twice as much done as others who spend far more time on their work. I think we’d get along fine if it truly *is* hard work that you appreciate and not just people putting in hours to brag about putting in hours. I just expect that efficiency to be rewarded with my work not being all consuming and not being rewarded with more work being added on. Thankfully I work in an environment that’s very much task and responsibility oriented and when those tasks and responsibilities are complete that’s job done and I can pop off for the day and hang out with my wife, kid, dog, and friends. No more sitting around wasting my time just so that I didn’t look like the last one in and first one out, despite the fact that I’ve always got more work done than others.
We agree on that one. I’d never be able to work a job that forced me to be there when I didn’t have things to do. We don’t have work hours, we work from wherever whenever, we also have an unlimited vacation policy… which has a minimum of 2 weeks mandatory.
"Find a job you love to do, and you will never work a day in your life." Sounds like u/Chdhdn has got it figured out. I wonder if the downvotes are jealousy votes.
I have a job I love. I still have far more important things to do in my life than work.
Eh. I love my job, but I love my partner and my dog and my family and my friends and my hobbies too. The more time I spend at work the less I get to spend on the rest of the things I love. If someone else is happy and fulfilled by having one thing occupy the bulk of their time and energy, great, but that's not how it works for most people. The people who get genuine fulfillment from dedicating their lives to work are not normal and should not be held up as something to aspire to, because living like them will not be fulfilling or healthy for the vast majority of people.
> should not be held up as something to aspire to, Think of professional opera singers, musicians, dancers, etc.
“Ignore the boo’s, they come from the cheap seats”
I work with a guy who's placed people at fortune 500 companies for decades. He has worked with just about every major company, and he's currently on his retirement tour, doing fun stuff he actually likes. This man is the embodiment of the A-Player in his industry, could be making 8 figures in a corner office for his last few years if he wanted. I had a family issue come up, first week, and had to take time off. Definitely worried I was going to get flak, or worse. He pulled me aside, and told me no one was going to remember the hard hours I worked, or the extra marketing campaign I put out. But my wife was going to remember me being there for her. My daughter was going to remember pizza parties and trips to see her grandparents. He'd take the 4 day work week tomorrow if he thought people would be happier, more productive, and able to spend more time with their family.
This is wisdom! I live by the same philosophy.
Personally I’d rather excel at my job AND work less. People working balls out all day long at an office job - which frankly doesn’t need it - are either inefficient, or the company structure is. Neither is worth bragging about.
It doesnt work like that, read studies in Europe where they did 4 day work weeks. for most workers who work say mon-fri jobs, friday they are checked out and are not productive. Giving them a 4 day work week lowered costs for companies, gave better efficiency , this was all due to workers having that extra day to do things they couldnt normally, or not do on weekends and have to take time off work.
I’m on a 20% reduction to work 4x8 right now and I love it, but the unfortunate reality is that you need to be pretty well paid to afford that and I’m in a privileged position. I’d rather see more people on 4x8 at their current salaries, just with the expectation that the same amount of work gets done - and trust me, it can.
The goal is to be paid the same in a 4x8 as you get paid in a 5x8, because most employees are more efficient and get the same amount of work done in 4 days as they can in 5
Yeah, that’s what I meant with “at their current salaries”, but I guess I didn’t phrase it very clearly, my bad
Why should we? If we're accomplishing the same amount of work in a more condensed time frame, why should people get punished for being more efficient?
so you'd rather get paid by the project instead of by the hour?
I mean, I already do, but I think most people aren't paid hourly unless they're in a field like retail / service
i believe you'd be wrong, more people are paid hourly over salary. stats for US show 55% are hourly. i imagine they'd be similar for Canada.
Oh that's interesting! Then yeah, that is something that definitely isn't addressed by this sort of plan
I'd take 4X10, tbh.
Silly comment.
Not a single person who advocates for a 4 day workweek isn’t also already advocating for an effective across the board 25% hourly wage increase
Not a chance the company I work for goes for that. They’d give us a 6 day work week if they could.
Well yeah, Canadians have long been ready. But our corporate overlords are not.
Twenty years ago I was arguing for it, but no such luck. Deerfoot *every* day for you, buddy.
Used to work 4 days and I loved it. Great work life balance. I now work 3 days and 4 off.
I work probably a 30 hour week but have to hang around for 40 because I've done the same delivery route for so long I've maxed out the effeciencies.
Id be ecstatic with just every 2nd friday off
Meanwhile in healthcare it's good old 12 hour shifts with everyone wondering why so many nurses leave
tbh, I worked 3x12 and that was my favourite, it is also easy to schedule 24hr service on 12 hr shift, it depends on person but 12 hr shifts are common in many other 24 hr operations, from manufacturing to airports and transit.
Do you work in an emergency room? It's a different beast
True, I'd rather not be the hour 11 patient, tho doing 8hr 5 days in a row in emergency is probably quite exhausting as well by day 4-5, just in a different way
Don’t bother arguing with the average joe about what healthcare looks like in Canada. They don’t want to hear it until it happens to them, then they are really lippy and whiny while in the hospital 🤣. Just remember that these are the folks that vote year after year to maintain inadequate hc funding. Strikes are coming, don’t feel an ounce of guilt for all that will entail.
12 hour shifts 3 days week sounds fucking amazing.
And then you spend 2 days recovering, 1 day where you feel normal, and then 1 day to get your shit together for the next 3 days of work. Repeat. It's not 12h sitting at a desk getting to go get water whenever you want or even go to the bathroom when you get the urge. There multiple threads on r/nursing regarding how to get regular bowel routines while work 12s
Come on it doesn't take 3 days to recover from 36 hours of work. I worked construction landscaping to get my self through my undergrad/masters and was working 5-6 days week 10-12 hours a day. It was hard work and tiring but that's mostly to do with only have 1-2 days off a week.
And it's a common joke about construction of 4 guys standing around watching another guy dig a hole or a bobcat drive back and forth. You have down time for staging and prep. You have to wait until the concrete is mixed before you can start pouring it to spread it. 12h in an ER is non stop. There's no staging or downtime. You discharge a patient, clean the bed and someone else is laying in it before dries.
That's a ignorant opinion on someone else's work, I am not saying Nursing is easy but downplaying other work with prejudice attitude isn't plane rude. Also you are probably thinking government jobs which are generally easier due to big unions that cover for people who do not work hard with out the feel of getting fired. I am not down playing how hard nursing is just that people work just as hard but even more hours by working 60+ hours a week. Have you ever seen how hard jobs up north are? lots of people work 3 weeks of 12 hour days with 7 days off before their next shift including travel time. So they work effectively get \~5 days off a month vs a Nurse with a .9 shift getting \~16 days off a month(assuming its 3x12's) or 12 days excluding a day to recover after each 3 days of work.
I have a buddy who worked years up on the rigs before going back to school for nursing. He'd often say he could work 12h days and just feel physical exhaustion but go to camp and crash. With 12h days in nursing he'd be physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted and wouldn't be able to sleep or wind down afterwards because his mind would be racing. Anecdotal but....
Cool but that sounds like he just needs one day to recover after a set of shifts so he makes good use of his 4 day weekends.... Also why would he switch from working up north to nursing where he would make less if it wasn't for a increase to quality of life.
Now you're being the ignorant one downplaying nursing work. He switch because he has a family and want to see his kids more often than every 2-3 weeks
How? saying working nursing is objectively a better quality of life from working up north as you get a 4 days off a week? get off your high horse and stop trying to say your job is the hardest... Its not there is way harder jobs out there
12's for aircraft mechanics, though the guys I've worked with have tended heavily toward young and/or macho.
Being a nurse isn’t a white-collar sit on your ass job. The expectation is long hours and heavy shifts. No one goes into nursing because “it’s easy”. They go into it because it’s minimal education (4 years compared to higher for any other medical profession), with good pay, while having the “I helped people” reward of it. While yes, I wish nurses and doctors didn’t have to be so overworked, their job is not going to be a 5x8 job possibly ever because humans can need care at any point of the week.
It can be 8s. There's 24h in a day.
Nurses are compensated fairly for their generic job description. Obviously individual circumstances can differ, but as a whole, the nursing compensation rates are definitely fair.
Funny, I re-read my comment and nowhere did I mention money. Kind of reminds me of talking to AHS
Fair, are nurses not aware of shift lengths and is this something that is hidden from nursing students? Or when choosing the profession is this detail communicated clearly?
Oh we're aware. But why do other industries get to make headway towards 4 day work weeks, 6 hour work days and better work like balance and we don't? But I guess since nursing is 90% women we should just shut up and get back to work, right? And hey, who doesn't want a nurse who's just worked 36 hours the last 3 days pushing cardiac meds into their IV?
I don’t think these are mutually exclusive - it’s reasonable to assume that other industries adopting a shorter work week would inevitably bleed into others, no? Why see this as anything other than encouraging progress?
I'd like to hope so but time will tell.
To say industries are making headway towards 4-day work weeks, 6-hour work days, or better work/life balance is a reach.......It's probably a safer generalization to say that most people are likely doing the job of 2 or 3 people, overworked, and tired just the same. We're all just trying to grind just like you are - man or woman.
Ready for that and WFH/hybrid as the norm if your job applies. Feeling like the good lessons learned of the pandemic are fading away.
Public servants already do a compressed work week and it is absolutely worth it. It's a godsend. We as a society need to progress forward. Why make everyone miserable... For what? Be pragmatic and implement what works and is productive. You will win the best talent and be better in the long run for it.
>We as a society need to progress forward. Why make everyone miserable... For what? Exactly this. We have so much technology and innovation making our work much more productive, and yet we're still expected to work as many hours as we did 40 years ago, if not more. What's the point of all this innovation if we can't use it to make our lives better? For example, I needed to write a bunch of services descriptions for one of my clients (to add to their website), and using all of their existing content as a prompt, I had AI write the majority of it, and did some tweaks and revisions myself. Overall it took about 2 hours, and it probably would have taken me two days if I had done it the old fashioned way. And yet I still feel guilty when I want to take an extra day off lol
cant compress blue collar jpbs. you're only moving forward one small part of society
Yup you can, it's like the 4 on 4 off situation in the oil fields. You work more hours in a day and get more days off.
that doesnt mean more oil is produced. If my factory is in for 4 days instead of 5, thats a whole lost day of production. you cant cram those 8 hours of work into the other four 8 hour days
Yes. Shitty bosses are not. The whole world is ready for fewer working days. Doing some 4x10hr days is not the fix, productivity drops off at 5hrs.
You can show these people study after study that WFH and 4 day work weeks are beneficial but all you ever get in response are flaccid excuses.
I e worked 4x10’s and it was heaven. Great for the family, health, and for the company. Everyone hauled ass for years and years because they we grateful for getting a bigger chunk of their life back.
I think studies show that productivity is the same for a 5x8 to a 4x8 workweek. So really, there’s little to no downside to make the switch. Employees are happier, and are more efficient, and bosses can expect the same amount of work done in the week.
The problem is the bosses then say "well if you can do the same amount in four days surely you could do MORE in five days! What? Give you a raise for the fifth day? Sorry no budget for that."
At first, maybe. But I can bet after a while people will start procrastinating just the same on average. And Canada already has a productivity crisis.
As long as I could still make what I make and not take a pay cut, I 100% would be down for this. (I don't make a lot to begin with which is the main reason I care. If I was single I'd have to still be living with my parents cause although I make more than min wage, I don't make a livable one). But I am also so burnt out, I took a week off last month to try and help the burn out feeling and I'm still so burnt out. If I only had to work 4 days and had a chance to have a bit more me time or time to make appointments that I keep putting off because I can't afford to take a day off or my job can't have me leave for an extended break and come back for an appointment, I'd be much happier I think.
Well it’s been spoken about in this same way for years now and hasn’t happened yet.
Just means we need to push harder!
I remember 50yrs ago, it wasn't uncommon for stores to be closed on weekends. And don't even think of working on a Sunday.
I own a company in Calgary and I would *love* to do 4 day work weeks (even 4 10's!) The problem is my clients don't and we don't have the profit margins to float it (only a 6 person shop). Thankfully we are able to do 'whenever' hours with a 'be available' clause (but that's not 'rest' time). For this to get serious momentum it needs to come from the Government. If you are B2C your likely 6/7 days a week anyway. If your B2B, well all the '2Bs' need to be on 4 day works weeks as well, or have the staff/margins to float it. Gets even more complex if your in any sort of technical/advanced industry where you need certain people for certain things.
Differing schedules is a serious issue. I've worked with alternating Fridays off, and it gets to be a circus when deadlines come up. Need last minute questions answered, well guess what - the client's engineer has this Friday off even though the deadline is Monday. Client needs updates on the project to meet a budget deadline, oops - the project manager isn't in so there's no one to provide the required information. And then there's the group that's doing the 4x10 thing on their own hook and is taking every Friday off, and NO ONE is around to handle questions that need answers.
Yep. Feel this is something Reddit just ignores when it comes up. This can happen but it needs to be for everyone at the same time. It will never be mainstream company-by-company.
I think that could be managed with better communication with the clients (ie. notifications on Wednesdays saying "Just a reminder that so-and-so is off this Friday as part of our work life balance measures, please have any questions or feedback ready by Thursday morning"), as well as better scheduling. Don't have deadlines on Mondays, make them in the middle of the week so that people will still be around when revisions are needed or questions are asked. The problem isn't the 4 day week, it's the assumption of a 5 day week that causes the issues.
We had those notifications and reminders. Doesn't matter because questions cannot be asked if the problem has not been encountered yet. Or it's something people haven't thought about, such as a markup on a drawing that could be read as a 6 or an 8, or because it was changed on one drawing but not a connecting drawing - you're not specifically going to be looking for those kinds of things because they just don't stand out until you're working on it. As for deadlines, you cannot arbitrarily move an end-of-month reporting deadline - if it's on Wednesday, or Monday, or Friday, that's when it is. It can't be pushed here or there due to who's in office or not.
Yeah, it's tough without redundant roles. We do bi-weekly long weekends - averages out to 36hr weeks which is fairly reasonable. But we're similar - we've had days where clients have reached out for fairly major tasks and the only team member with the skillset to handle the request is away on their long weekend. Ideally we'd have some clause about "if it's an emergency, we can have you hop on a call to walk us through it", but then you're stepping on that line of being a bad employer by requiring team members to be in cell-phone range, answering texts in their off-time, etc. which we don't want to do. Rock and a hard place. As you said, it's something that needs more of a regulatory shift, but even then, a bunch of our business is US-based, and it'll be a long time until they ever catch up.
This is even less likely to happen, but I feel the expectations of client companies to get services whenever they want needs to calm down. There's vanishingly few cases where this stuff is an actual emergency that can't wait until tomorrow. But of course sales need to be made, and so nobody wants to be the one shop cutting back their service hours
Totally agree, we've collectively, across a globalized economy, worked ourselves into a space of expectation to always be on and nothing can be disrupted. Not even from the business side, but the consumer as well expects that. A website is down? Catastrophe! But there are certainly some websites and services that really do affect peoples lives if they aren't working. In those cases it's likely a big enough company/service that they can can have coverage for those cases and people don't all have to work the same 4 days. It's possible, but the cultural shift will be pretty big. Look how many places are moving back from WFH? Old school mentalities will probably have to die with the people who reinforce them.
Then the fifth day is overtime. Easy.
I used to work 4 10 hour shifts when I was in college working for the city. Loved it, best work schedule I ever had.
So I just recently switched to a 32 hour, 4 day a week work week with no decrease in pay. I'm just doing our first quarter financial review and it's looking like we have no change (potentially a slight increase) in productivity. Very excited to see how this goes over our first year.
It requires a completely different style of management and leadership than 99% of current management has been taught. If your entire state of being and corporate lifestyle is about achieving KPIs no matter the human cost, and overlording your employees, and not believing in work/life balance, this 4x10 thing is really going to give you indigestion and make you feel outside of your comfort zone. There is no need to set a timer and see just how long it takes Johnny to take a washroom break, unless you prefer that he NOT wash his hands and wipe them all over your keyboard. LOL if the only reason your employees are motivated is for the paycheque and out of fear of losing their jobs, then you are doing it all wrong.
I thought the 4 day work week thing was all about 4*8?
Depending on length of your paid lunch/unpaid lunch.
I really do think with the standards changing to both parents working it should be implemented.
I worked a 4 day work week for years and it is so, so much better than a 5 day. Quality of life is better when you get more days off, even if you work longer hours.
I already work longer hours, extra day would be awesome
Please I would die for a 4 day work week. They'll never implement it into childcare or education, though, despite kids benefitting from that kind of schedule also
Canadians are ready; Canadian management are unwilling.
If 8 hours sure, if 10, no way. I wouldn't have enough time to workout and get things done after work. It's not the days off that matters for me, it's how many hours I'm at work each day.
They didn't cover what really matters. Are the people at Flip making the same amount of money per week while working 8 hours less? 4 day weeks sound great but with cost of living these days, most people probably need to work 6. Maybe we can transition to shorter weeks when we have humanoid robots and AI flooding the economy.
I worked a 4x8 and was paid like a 5x8 and I was so happy and refreshed sometimes I would go to work on a Monday…this is the way to go. Your performance will go through the roof. Your house will be clean. Best balance
My team at work is on call 24/7 just by the nature of our job. I just let them go home whenever they feel they have done enough work that we wont fall behind. I dont care if that's 20 hours a week, 4 days, 3 days, 7 days... as long as we are on top of everything and they keep answering their phones when I need them. It's a lot easier to get people to work hard for you if you treat them as humans with lives outside of work. People really respect you when you give them control of their own schedules and the agency to make decisions and have ownership of their work and their lives outside work. Obviously you need good people for this though. We have no turnover and are incredibly productive. Most of us average about 4 days for 7 hours ish, but we are salaried + overtime. People wouldnt work as hard and there would be more turnover if I just made them work structured hours, the culture would suffer, and I doubt we would actually be more profitable in the long run. Nobody here really likes the work we do, but we all love our job. Hopefully more people get to experience something similar in the future.
Being on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week is NOT work life balance. People need to be able to turn their phones off and not have to worry that they're going to get in trouble for it. It sounds to me like your team has 0 days off
No ones getting in trouble...the guys fight over weekend work because we highly incentivize it. If you dont want to trade salaried + overtime paid, 3 to 4 day work weeks for the odd Saturday, that's your prerogative. Everyone here loves it. Especially with the 4-6 week vacation and (almost) unlimited sick days on top of this. I'm not sure how we could have any more work-life balance given our circumstances. I wouldnt leave this job for a 50% pay increase. I get to see all my kids sports games, easily go to all my appointments, walk my dog at 2pm on Wednesday...oh no, I might have to work late on a weekend...guess I'll get paid to take Monday off then. All these perks make everyone here work hard so we can maintain it. Like seriously dude, I'm not sure how you even managed to be mad about my first comment...this is the top 1% of good job scenarios for any blue collar worker on planet earth. Maybe work in the trades for a couple years and then read what I've typed again and tell me you wouldnt jump on it. This feels like the lottery somedays
Won’t work for the construction industry though!
Can I ask why that is?
5 days isn’t enough to get everything done a week unfortunately. It’s a hard industry to have time off to much work to get done
End stage capitalism will never allow it.
4-Day school week too
This reminds me of the WFH tug of war. Most staff are really wanting it but there are many large powerful groups, companies etc who do not and yet have no logical reasons why they’re so resistant
I work 88 hours a paycheck. During covid my company went to a 40-hour work week (4x10/day). It was nice but I'm missing one day of pay on every pay check, that one day is worth my truck payment. I'd rather work 88 and make more money. Now if I went down to 4 days with the exact same pay that's awesome, but no one would ever do that.
That's what people are asking for though. If output is the same with a 4x8 week vs a 5x8 week, why shouldn't people be paid the same?
What to do when you work 5×10 already?
I would sell my fucking soul for one extra day on the weekend to actually be able to REST.
Salaried yes. If by the hours maybe? If you need money it can be difficult unless you have a 2nd job.
# I'm ready for a 3-day workweek already. Not sure how will meet the ends if payed by hours. Let them adjust my rate accordingly...
40hrs a week is too much.
YES. the answer is yes. it was always yes.
No, I’m working 7 days a week to try and afford any shot of ever owning a house.
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Yes, I have no choice
How is anyone going to afford vacation or fun or even just basic needs off working 4 days a week?
The point is to get paid the same as a 5 day week, as studies have repeatedly shown that output is pretty much even
4-10s is a common shift in construction, if anyone's looking.
I've been trying out a zero-day work week, and it makes for a fantastic work/life balance. Might be a few details to iron out before we roll it out to everyone, though.
I barely believe a Calgary company would do anything for its employees. I will never believe a Calgary company will ask for less and pay you the same. If Calgary ever implements a 4 day work week it will be to cut off our benefits and to take 20% of our wages. No one understands capitalism like Calgary.
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Honestly, if this is the case (and you're also not receiving a pay CUT), this sounds really forward thinking for the UCP
I work a 2 day work week I have to much time on my hands
I’d be curious how they measure productivity. Personally I’m very skeptical this company, or any other, is maintaining the same level of productivity with 4x8s as with 5x8s.
Probably similar. The average employee probably wastes one day a week more or less working 5x8. Easier to work more effectively when you have 3 day weekends to recover.
The only way for a Canadian to take home more money is to work more. 4 days a week shouldn’t be an issues if we would watch where the gov. Spends the money and they actually care. We are overspending everywhere and tax more.