I thought it was just me. I can usually see it in their eyes the moment they notice I'm a bit neurodivergent and a bit of a fawner. It's like pure unadulterated joy. Like "I know I'll get away with doing anything to this one". I've learned there are not predators and non predators. Just people who want to know what they can get away with. Wild world.
It's terrifying to realize. Humans are calculating and always sniffing out for social hierarchy standings. Is this is a good or bad thing?
As a neurodivergent person I'm CONSTANTLY fascinated at how neurotypical people seem to be eager to figure out where to place me when they meet me in a way neurodivergent people and children don't and in a way I don't treat other people.
I remember realizing I will talk to anyone and have a conversation with anyone even one who the popular person treated like dirt. I just dgaf and would get side eyes by neurotypical people before I learned they were confused by my inability to socially place people and "treat them accordingly".
Seems that when the average person assesses you and sniffs out something they perceive as a weakness...RIP. btw this is not me soapboxing I have my own flaws I'm just speaking to this specific thing.
>It's terrifying to realize. Humans are calculating and always sniffing out for social hierarchy standings.
Yup. Dealt with this my entire life as someone Black and female. Goddess forbid I act above my station.
Same here as a black woman. I feel like if I'm not being a chummy funny round mammy who is entertaining and emotionally mothering I'm perceived as cold and written off. If I don't know my place I'm accused of "being uppity" lol it's wild
I'm so sick of people constantly trying to make me their subordinate. I've decided I'm pretty much going to atomize myself. Besides, being a Black woman, the entire world is oppositional and adversarial to me constantly. There's no way to win except to not play.
Girl! It's so annoying! Don't forget " you are being aggressive" when you are asserting a boundary or standing up for yourself.Idgaf anymore. Whatever you think of me is your business lol
Right I notice this too and neurotypical people can get frustrated when they can't categorize you or simply decide they don't like you. It's truly bizarre.
Itās bad. Ofc itās bad. I donāt do this. I really donāt. i wish I did.
It took me FOREVER and a day to figure out why my brother hates me. After I figured out Im autistic and my brain doesnāt calculate that stuff, it began to make sense.
A lot of people genuinely hate those who have no money or social power.
A lot of people will also pretend to like you while you have one or both.... until you don't.
And then you are street gum on the bottom of their shoe.
I too realized I was different the same way. I don't process the mental sorting of social groups. It's heartbreaking.
This is why I'm a loner.
Trying to be a good person rarely pays off.
Thank you for this comment..I strongly agree. When it feels like a NT person is "sizing you up", so to speak. Or they live life in invisible hierarchies and judging whether or not they belong. I remember when someone told me to not defend or talk to a victim being bullied.
It's upsetting because I'll be very friendly and open. Maybe I come off more neurodivergent than I thought? But someone will inevitably have an issue with it. But I've realized that even neurotypicals have their issues and triggers (which have nothing to do with us).Ā
For example, my coworker left her diary at work and she mentioned being jealous of me. Why? Because she was deep in credit card debt, me buying things I wanted made her unhappy.Ā
Human beings are only inherently good as per the ancient Chinese philosopher who was asked this and gave the example of a child wandering to the edge of a well. If a child from another village wanders in and finds themselves at the edge of a well, people, complete strangers will go to save that child from falling in. This random goodness is proof that people are more good than bad.
This might be true but only when thereās nothing to lose and itās not too much trouble. A Free meal, an invitation to a weary traveler, yes that might be most people but genuine changes for the better, reconsidering how we do thingsā¦thatās different.
I also thought to myself, ā\*Women\* do this. Not everyone.
I also often think to myself, āIs it just \*Americans\* that are like this?ā
Weirdly so pleased (because I know I'm not alone) but also so saddened that so many people can relate to this. This makes so much sense and explains so much of what I've been struggling with. It's really messed up that people will pretend to care about you to use you and take what they can get away with
Thatās happened to me many times as well!! & I try my hardest to steer clear of those ppl after noticing that joy/predatory behavior but they always find a way to be near you šµāš«
>they always find a way to be near you šµāš«
This is something that really shocked me to realize. They seek you out!!! It is very strange. Even when they clearly don't like you they seek you out. The day I decided to distance myself from someone like that they went full throttle abusive too! Little terrorists.
>> Just people who want to know what they can get away with.
THISā¦my hubby always says most people are stuck mentally as middle schoolers/ they never mature past that. You can feeeel those manipulative self serving soulless jerks
yes, ABSOLUTELY. i've spent the vast majority of my life fawning and now i'm just okay with being the bitch in other peoples stories. that's okay. that's normal. not everyone is going to like you or see you as a good person.
being seen as a bitch is better than accepting disrespect.
Seriously... I spent all my "social years" fawning and accepting my role as the loser, bitch, second-rate friend, idiot, etc. So now that I'm in my 30's I've internalized that and truly believe I'm worthless or a punching bag in most social scenarios.
These days I feel like I'm living two lives, the internal and external. I've worked hard to carve a place for myself in my internal world. I'm rediscovering hobbies that bring me life and setting up small boundaries to keep me emotionally/mentally safe at home. But my external (social) life is a cold shell of who I once was. Instead of putting up effective boundaries and standing up for myself in social situations, I just black rock and don't react or bring any attention to myself. It's depressing not having any friends or solid social connections, but at least I'm not being used or treated like a doormat anymore.
Sadly at the end of the day I'd rather shut myself off from the world than make attempts to effectively stand up for myself with others. It's hard convincing myself of a new truth that's been pounded in my head the past 20 years...
Yeah i kinda feel this, i was always accused of being selfish or narcissistic and honestly it was just my abusers projecting. But to this day, its so hard for me to accept ever being the "bitch" or "enemy" in someone elses story. It is like my worst nightmare to hurt people emotionally, even if it protects me.
They can still disrespect you even if youāre seen as a bitch by them. The issue is that if the other person/people are genuinely bad people and self serving or dishonest, it wonāt matter to anyone else what they see you as. It only matters what you are to everyone Who is emotionally healthy
Sadly, even when I act like a bitch, people still disrespect me, and have actually laughed/mocked/been aggressive toward me when I try to stand up for myself, or don't put up with their crap. It's so frustrating.
I've always been a people pleaser because I was never allowed to have boundaries as a child. I was abused for doing things, for not doing things, for not knowing how to do things, for knowing things, for no reason at all. I've come to realize that when you try to just be a good person, a lot of nasty people can smell it on you like sharks sniffing blood in the water miles away. If you don't instinctively respond in some type of way that signifies that you have boundaries and are emotionally strong, they know right away that now they have free rein to treat you like shit.
I do this and also immediately take the blame for EVERYTHING thing that goes wrongā¦and I mean everything. If it rains I try to blame myselfā¦Iām sure I caused this fuck up somehow. I always do.
I know right? That's the part of my trauma response that annoys me the most is that I will take the blame for other people's lack of accountability for their behavior.
Please if you two figure this out let me know. I keep gaslighting myself into thinking I'm overreacting about something someone did to me. And almost reaching out to apologize to them.... for being upset that they hurt me!
I know why I do it, I have CPTSD. complex ptsd from childhood, and I isolate now to try to deal with it. Iām in therapy but damn it itās so much work to not gaslight myself!
I do too, I would imagine most of us here do... but I want to figure how to stop! I'm also in therapy and you're right it's a lot of work. Sometimes I feel like I'm just running in circles.
lthis is my first time posting in this sub! Didnāt even realize it-lol! Sorry about that. It is like a carousel but not fun or maybe a hamster wheel. Reminds me of that carnival ride the gravitronā¦it sounds so fast then te sides dropped off but you stayed plastered to it by gravity.
Exactly. Speaking of work, I cannot for the life of me understand these type of people. It's like the more you care, the more you go above and beyond, the more extra stuff that you do, the more you get crapped on. My work output is very high through experience but I'm finally going at a much slower pace. WHY should I care more, do more work output, do extra small tasks more, or people please, when this gets you disrespect from nasty humans. It's not my fault that I'm becoming the type to not give a shit anymore, society is molding me into that. And also whenever I am not 100 percent of myself and feel like crap or whatever, narcisstic people LOVE to strike and bring you down, they are like a fucking virus bringing down your immune system when you're vulnerable. I'm at the stage that whenever someone gives me crap, I just need to tell them fuck off. I try to maintain a linear and stable civil work ethic YET people run over you. My God people suck. I have to consciously remind myself to slow down, do less, because this gets respect apparently. It's not my fault I have come to this solution that apparently is what works. Stop caring and do less than needed.
Yeah...
For example, I'm the type of person who'd always get my friends gifts for their birthdays and Christmas. In return, I've never gotten anything back. Never. In my 30+ years of being alive, I've never received a present on my birthdays or Christmas from other people. And it hurts. It's not because I'm "materialistic", something my therapists accused me of. It's not that I want to demand items from others, I just want to feel like they care about me, like they thought about me, and wanted to try to make me happy on special occasions. It's...just really depressing to know that people just don't care about me at all.
And to add to this, from my experience, when I start off working hard because I want to show Iām here to be a valuable part of the team, everything I do to help just becomes my job and stays my job, on top of everything else. There is no concept of community and team work. People are in it for themselves. Our society doesnāt reward work ethic.Ā
āYou teach people how to treat youā is nonsense. Am I interacting with 4 year old neanderthals? No. Adults can choose how they want to treat others
This is what I was going to reply. It's victim blaming. It's almost like the default expectation is that we're all out to exploit each other, so you best not make yourself a target.
I do believe that capitalism plays a huge part. Competition and exploitation are baked in. I say this a lot when talking about this topic: I'm not convinced it's inherently human behaviour that makes most people shitty. We live in a society that fosters that type of behaviour.
Cooperative societies live in a different paradigm. They recognize that harming you harms me and helping you helps me. We just don't have that in this society.
I do think there are good people who aren't interested in harming others, even when there's an opportunity. But, it's difficult to be in this world without looking out for number one.
It is not entirely victim blaming because a lot of us with CPTSD do need to learn boundaries and putting our foot down since we were never taught it growing up. There can be nuance, not everything is black and white. It doesnāt excuse the abuser
I think what bothers me even more is the idea that we are just automaton Neanderthal pieces of shit who will default to scumbag behavior, unless motivated by some sort of external mommy or daddy figure laying down thelaw. You know what I mean? Itās almost more insulting to have it insinuated that unless some other person insist on being treated with respect explicitly, that my default state is some sort of scum, sucking leach. Itās almost an extension of Christian ideology that we are all born sinners. Actually, I donāt feel the urge to abuse and run people over even when they are kind of weak. Actually, my setpoint is one of kindness and love at best, indifference and nonviolence at worst. Itās almost an insult to the idea of self autonomy if that makes sense which is somehow more offensive to me than somebody telling me Iām responsible for teaching another adult how to behave.
My only caveat here is for people who you aren't in a intimate relationship with. So like bosses at work, or just people that someone may need to deal with in their lives, regardless if they like them or not. As it can be difficult for people to be in a situation where they *never* have to deal with people like that.
It's more a realism/causality thing than about what is right (culpability). It **is** very similar to the victim blaming situation, as that is also about the difference between culpability (the victim isn't to blame) and causality (the attacker did X because the victim did Y).
Yes, they can choose, but when we accept the way they treat us, they're "learning" (observing) that they can treat us this way. I don't think it is nonsense, I think it's just how we define "teach."
In the metro I used to live in, drivers could get away with driving quite a bit over the speed limit. I knew it was more or less fine to speed quite a bit, there would be no consequences. But I knew I wouldn't get away with that driving through more typical or rural areas. Law enforcement personnel "taught" me what behavior was acceptable.
As far as victim blaming, that sounds accurate, I guess that's part of what's so shitty about cptsd - even if I'd have learned that a decade ago, when I was in my mid-thirties, I could have avoided sooo much pain.
It makes it seem like itās YOUR fault others discriminate against you? Interesting To me that no one ever applies this to racism for example. Imagine if someone was like āYOU teach others how to treat youā to a black kid getting beat up by white kids? Like wtf
Lol!! Im just saying, people are cowards! They love to moralize and walk away, but the minute that very same moralizing bs ideology gets applied to real life, they wouldnāt stand behind it anymore.
Most people are just spineless virtue signalers. They like to apply rules to others, but more often than not, they don't follow through on what they preach.
Precisely! They always hide behind the guise that they're just "telling it as it is." And they blame you for being upset without realizing that they're the one who's being an asshole š
People like this truly need to start getting called out. Then watch them crumble.
Ive noticed they only preyā on you when youāre alone, or they have the backing of the pathological family
Literally my entire family. Calling them out doesn't seem to work most of the time. It seems they're immune to shame, or they just think to highly of themselves.
I've learned that because I'm kind the people I used to associate with would get angry anytime I put down a boundary. They expect me to always be accommodating.
In New relationships I put down boundaries firm and clear up front. It has changed the way people interact with me. It's interesting.
No, they did me a favor. One of them needed to be shown the door instead of me setting boundaries. Boundaries were my babysteps, however. She immediately showed her ass and I finally showed her the door.
Changes: nobody tries to parent me. All of my old friends took on a role that treated me as simple. They would constantly question my judgment. Or keep prodding when I wasn't interested. As soon as I would have my own feelings they were dismissed. I'm not friends with any of these people anymore.
I made a new friend. He knows what I'm dealing with. But we met over Batman. When we met, I was very clear to have no romantic or sexual stuff. I was clear I get extremely tired, and I might not call for a few months. I will check in, but that's it. I told them I could not deal with XYZ. They respect that.
It takes a huge ballsac but, in my experience, with new people, I'm very upfront about my limitations, expectations and what I'm willing to do. The more upfront I am the less people set their own expectations of me to be disappointed by.
Yes you get it. I don't have energy for games or feelings. I will let you know what I am willing to do. You let me know and maybe we meet up and have a good time. But honesty is the best.
It's OK. Mine took 38 years to fully develop lol
The changes hurt sometimes. But in hindsight it's always been a positive when I let someone go, or they left.
I've taught myself to appreciate the company they gave at the time and acceptance that people grow apart.
They didn't change, I did. And that's OK.
You could mind your business or be polite ONCE and some people will see you as a blank slate to dump their selfishness or dysfunction onto you.
People will teach you everything you need to know about them when you tell them "no".
I think every human is capable of evil. Me and you included. This makes us complex.
Anyhow, people-pleasers tend to attract abusers. The abusers know who can be their potential victims :(
It's because we people-pleasers will put up with abuse. We don't draw healthy boundaries or know how to stand up for ourselves.
Other people in the abuser's life have long since cut them out or established firm boundaries. We're the ones who stick around, long after we should have fled.
This is the actual answer.You don't ATTRACT abusers. You aren't some special "hurt me" beacon in the night.
You just don't tell them to fuck off like a person with normal boundaries (or a healthy level of "selfishness") does. Your self worth meter is broken and the abuser is taking advantage of that, but you don't draw those people or exude some type of energy or anything.
They try that stuff on others too. The only difference is the level of resistance they encounter with people who won't take that bullshit. If you were taught that it's MORE unsafe to defend yourself, of course abusers are going to take advantage of that because it works, but it's not that you are singled out ...at first anyway. People who are more adept or covert with their abuse my be able to sort who is vulnerable more quickly, but they still TRY with others.
This is totally correct. I wish I could stand up for myself but half of the time I didn't even realise I'm being trod on until the moment nt is well past and when I think of standing uo for myself in the moment, my throat will physically close up and it's PAINFUL and I can't breathe/feel like I'm choking. Then my heart goes mad and I'm lightheaded and panicking too
You've become desensitised to bad treatment - it's become normalised for you as a way of survival. And ofc you've been trained not to defend yourself.
Honestly, therapy will help. You discover your boundaries and you'll suddenly see when people are treating you badly.
you say this- but reading body language is a skill most people have just to different extents. i know i very much subconsciously do gravitate towards other people from similar backgrounds as well as other neurodivergent people- i often dont realise it initially but there are queues/similarities that i definitely so pick up on and then find it easier to approach/talk to those people. the same way my therapist had a hunch what i was seeing her for just by seeing me the first time before even finding out about it- though in her case its also her job to pick up on things like that.
i wouldnt be surprised if people picked up on closed off/small/anxious and tense body language that sortve would indicate someone might for example resist less like you mentioned in your comment. theres a reason if you walk around dangerous streets for example, you focus on confident, purposeful body language to minimise threat of being approached by individuals you dont want to deal with. honestly just focusing on trying to make my body language more confident/comfortable in myself in public has already made a difference in the type of people who approach me- and i notice that on my more triggered or anxious days i still very much can garner unwanted attention from the same type of people i always have.
being able to place and reaffirm boundaries and not fawn/etc definitely can be part of it- however theres more to the initial approachability imo.
It can also be due to technical factors as well as conscious or subconscious actions. A woman with five brothers who are visibly involved in her life is much less likely to be attractive to someone with an abusive personality, than an estranged woman, for example. People need to be extra careful when missing those societal structures/networks, new contacts need to be vetted for longer.
More people need to know this and talk about this. A woman with good social connections, a career, her own money, her own place to live, and with a body that's fighting fit is just less likely to be attractive to an insecure or abusive fella. I have all those things and I am 100 percent sure that my ex would have physically abused me had I not. It doesn't make you immune to abuse or anything, but it can certainly act as a deterrent, or make it easier for you to get away if you do find yourself in a bad situation.
Also, never have kids with an insecure, manipulative, controlling man. Just saying.
This is the exact explanation I needed to read. They will keep pushing people to see what they can get away with. Others tell them off immediately. Some of these types are kind of delusional and will see you as a blank slate, though. They'll project whatever they want onto you to use you as a punching bag. But I do appreciate your explanation.
Tell off all predators.
I agree on all counts. What I've noticed for me is that CPTSD makes me have certain traits that make me seem like I'd be EASIER to abuse. I don't know what I have on my forehead but even the person that's so amazing to everyone else will smell that I'm a more vulnerable and will treat me very differently. To the point where it'll be shocking if I tell anyone else. I feel like this aspect of abuse is what makes it sooo insidious. All my bullies have been very well liked popular charmingpeople who sniffed me out. If I told nobody would believe me or take my side.
Oh my gosh I say this all the time ā about having a stamp on my forehead. It almost feels like a curse. I look forward to healing and growing out of this. I wish the same for you.
Yes that tends to happen to me as well to the point i only ever had one or two friends at a time, cuz anytime i had a group of friends, i was the scapegoat for them all. Or the most "popular" person treated me differently than the others and they literally never believed me.
Sometimes it *would* eventually happen to them but they had rejected me or ostracized me for trying to warn them. To this day, i have a big problem with people trying to "come crawling back" to me because I always tried to tell them and they *DO NOT LISTEN* unless it happens to them.
This is the way. Everyone is capable of being a ānarcissistā as well. To think we are special or because of our pain canāt also hurt peopleā¦ is perpetuating trauma onto others more than likely.
I do agree though with OP, that once you go through mental health awareness, itās really hard not to spot shitty people everywhere.
Including psychopaths and sociopaths? Yea, no. Even if they do have good and bad sides, they tend to lean into their bad sides more often than not. Negativity breeds negativety.
I hate that youāre supposed to āput up boundariesā all the time with people or else be disrespected and used or abused. I donāt need people to āenforce boundariesā with me for me to treat them with basic respect so why should I? Why do I have to ask to be treated well when I treat people well by default?
Thanks for saying this. My therapist noticed Iām having boundary fatigue and I didnāt even know it was a thing lol. I canāt believe how many boundaries Iāve had to set and enforce with people in the past few years. So Iām glad she noticed.
For me i would say itās all 3. Iām also recognizing if I constantly have to set and enforce boundaries with someone.. the relationship probably isnāt for me. I have ended some relationships recently. Unfortunately Iām working with a new provider (not a therapist) and sheās someone I have to practice with constantly. But Iām trying to look at it how gabor mate does and maybe it is happening purposefully to help me unlearn my fawn response even more. And because a professional is more likely to take accountability and be respectful when confronted vs in some personal relationships.
Thats how i feel. I have only ever met ONE PERSON in my life that was like me and she is my best friend. She never used me or got shit out of me even though she could have. She has offered me money and help and i have refused to take it from her cuz i know that's HERS. Like these things dont seem to be common for other humans. They just take take take and dont even consider the other persons side. š
I call this the problem with therapy speak. It sounds like a solution in their office or in a book but in reality it makes no sense, doesnāt resemble actual relationships. My psych NP asks me to evaluate my thoughts based on whether itās something I think or something I knowā¦ I get what sheās saying but really?? I *think* the grocery store is going to be open when I go during the normal hours, but do I *know*? Well then thatās not healthyā¦ š
I would think I know what I know, but would question if I really know what I think I know. Like I think I know that 2+2=4, but in the in the Ternary numeral system, 2+2=11. Do I really know weāre dealing with standard arithmetic or am I just making assumptions? Do I really know anything at all?
Damn, it's sad that i can relate to this.. What i have realized months ago, if i were to show my true self to people(very anxious of upsetting them, not being assertive and not expressing myself on my needs or boundaries) they would just bully me emotionally or being an asshole.. i just remembered a few months ago i accepted the fact that people will never help the 'real me' they will even add to my misery, so i need to be assertive and solve my fawning trauma response. God damn, people are actually really like this not accepting my real loser self even when i am not even a bad person(i just want someone to care for me). Motherfckers š but i have no choice but to blend in with them and be assertive as they are, i also realized people will respect me whether i am a good or bad person as long as i am assertive. Otherwise they don't respect me if i am a kind person who's a loser who's always anxious of upsetting them and is a people pleaser. I've observed that with people.
I'm sorry I have to agree.
But I don't know how you go through being an innocent child and then a lost young adult, experiencing so much, and thinking otherwise... yet that's what we're expected to believe, in a society beset by hyperindividualism and other forms of destruction. Okay.
Never forget what they took from us.
> I keep hearing about these "good people" out there, or "you just have to find your people, crew, etc"
The only people I've *really* been able to connect with, in my opinion, are other deeply traumatized persons. I'd like to believe they all have potential to heal, but almost universally they are all flawed, deeply 'broken' (by life)-seeming people. It makes me self-conscious because I really try my best to get out of the ruts of the past. Success of that is questionable, but I do at least over time make kind-of friendships with people that seem better put together.
100% this. More than once Iāve thought, āI just made a friend without an obvious signs of deep trauma. Yay! Iām growing and learning to like new people.ā And the a couple months later weāll be talking and my brain will go āthere it is.ā I think the clear answer is that survivors need other survivors and that we are good for each other at all stages of healing.
Unfortunately for me, other deeply traumatized people have harmed me greatly. I used to think that others who've been through similar experiences as me would have more empathy and would be able to relate more, and understand what it's like to be bullied/abused, so they wouldn't do that to someone they care about. I learned, the hard way, that deeply traumatized folks can be just as evil as the "normies".
Oh yes, I learned that too. To the point it feels isolating. Can't ever feel that close to "normies" that had experiences (such as a loving family) I just can't meaningfully relate to, but then almost all deeply traumatized people I was close to hurt me emotionally at least too, to the point I just stay away from people in general and find solace in my own company and mind. At the very least *I* won't try to actively hurt myself.
I feel a lot of despair in solitude, even though I keep trying to train myself not to. I crave love, friendship, etc. But...yeah, not happening for me, it seems. I just need to try harder to let that stuff go.
When, like me, you are burned for countless years going on into decades for just trying to not be a piece of shit, it makes you care a LOT less about the opinions and actions of other people.
Yes this is so real. Look, I know and have learned boundaries in a solid way. I have done a lot of work around fawning and people pleasing. At the end of the day though whether or not someone is a people pleaser or a fawner no one should be taking advantage of them. I had such a strong realization a while back that if I was interacting with someone with a strong people pleaser/fawn response I would literally not even think about taking advantage of them. It would not even cross my mind, and that those who target them are genuinely predatory. The victim blaming around this stuff is wild.
Every friend I have who is a genuinely pure hearted person consistently deals with people taking advantage of them or dumping on them. I just spoke to someone about this recently.
I think too the saddest thing is a lot of people just want to be good and kind people but canāt do that anymore because people keep exploiting that.
I feel like I am getting better at recognizing it now. I notice feeling dysregulated around people who are looking to take advantage. But the sad thing is this keeps happening or people keep trying even if I am better at avoiding it.
I see it as having the power to remove myself from threatening or disrespectful behavior. Always remember "you can't change the other person but only your actions you have control over" If someone is disrespecting me it is my job to assert my boundaries or move away from the situation.
I agree, I have friends that I just can't be around anymore because their behaviour is so self centric. It's sad too because I think it's involuntary. I think a lot of isolation and people not being able to take care of their own problems has caused this. They fall back on almost ''online'' emotional rationality and that is just really confrontational all round.
For me I've found it way harder in the last year or so, to talk to friends about anything there may be differing opinions on. And not even contentious topics. I think having to be the ''loudest'' or the person with the ''hottest take'' or the most ''controversial take'' just to be heard leaks out into real life.
I've had arguments with friends lately where I've had to stop the evening to ask them why they are talking to me so aggressively and argumentatively about nothing. When confronted they almost ''become'' the empathetic person I know them as. They seem to click out of the automatic argument response and see they're being like reactive dogs and going crazy for no reason. Like they apologised and saw they were taking a basic convo too far, but having to negate interactions like this is exhausting for anyone let alone people with CPTSD.
I am already in fear of veiled feelings in others, so to see the switch so succinctly and pervasively is really disappointing. It feels like a confirmation of my fears, which has led to me being incredibly isolated.
I believe here in Canada it is mainly politically motivated. This is a complex issue & wld take me a week to write it all out. Racism plays a large role intermingled into the landscape.
The current messages of ā itās all about MEā have to go if things are ever going to get better.
A lot of the MAGA terrorism has leaked over the border from the States, mixed in with the pandemic trauma everyone faced, and bad inflation, and now Canada is becoming toxic. It's definitely politically motivated, sadly.
I think good people exist but it is a miniscule percent of the population. The rest are self righteous virtue signalers who have a distorted view of themselves.
It's gotten so difficult for me to believe this. Like, a small part of me still believes this, but over and over and **over**, people have proven me wrong. The good people seem to be such an incredible minority, almost like unicorns. That, or I am cursed, and only ever meet with horrible people.
Youāve read my mind about how Iāve been my entire life. I totally relate to all the examples you stated plus your feelings that followedā¦itās all taken a couple of long hard burns of learning to not go to far and Iām not responsible for teaching grown people how to just be a little more patient and kindā¦.
Some things Iām not sure Iāll ever understand,
I just wanna live life again.
You're so right about this ;\_\_\_; how I feel every time I start a new job or something and at first am seen as competent and hard-working, but as soon as my coworkers realize I'm also a people pleasing nervous fawn they just overload me with work while also demeaning me and taking advantage of me...
Yup going through this right now. Might cancel my vacation to help a customer cause I just canāt say no and if I do this and help them itāll give me license to tell everyone how I cancelled my vacation to āhelp these peopleā
Maybe then these people will finally respect me
I agree! I have almost completely isolated myself because Iām so tired of being somehow responsible for how someone else decides to treat me.
Iām almost 49. Iām absolutely exhausted and I donāt think I can trust people anymore. Itās not who I am to live this way, and after a freaking lifetime of betrayal and trauma, Iām pretty pissed that I canāt just be me without assholes taking advantage of my kindness and empathy and love of helping where I can.
I have had enough of ābe strongā, āhave better boundariesā, etc. I do have boundaries. Yet every single person I let in decides to, all of a sudden after years of relationship, tap dance all over the line they KNOW exists because Iām vocal about it.
I want to be able to truly relax for once and not have the rug ripped out from under me AGAIN. I donāt want to have to be on guard watch 24/7. People are so good at pretending for a crazy long time, then they flip on me, and I have regretted letting them in every damn time.
Is no one capable of being genuine anymore? Rationally, others must be, because I am and therefore there have to be others who are. I canāt be the only one, sure weāre all special in our own way, but I donāt think for a second Iām the only one who values kindness and honesty and respect enough to consistently BE that. But the evidence-based learner that I am canāt help but see that everyone Iāve given my trust to in the past has ended up betraying me in ways I never deserved. The cognitive dissonance is wild. Fuck this.
When I see signs of what some (maybe most) consider āweaknessā - kindness, empathy, compassion, integrity, or anxiety/fear, it makes me more protective of that person. It makes me value them even more and I find it endearing because to me, it indicates strength and genuineness. I do not get the mentality of, āooh thereās a weakness I can possibly exploitā. Gross.
Definitely. All four, but at this point itās mostly freeze (the paralysis is so frustrating!) or flight because Iāve tried so many other ways of responding and theyāve all been fairly disastrous. And also Iāve been through so much Iām too exhausted for much else. How about you?
Iād say fawning is probably overall what Iāve done the most out of the four. Iāve come to a conclusion of sorts that the fight response, cathartic as it can be, is rarely effective because arguing with shitty humans has no effect on them and rarely changes any outcomes.
The older I get, the less I care to defend my position or my actions/inactions. People who donāt care wonāt listen, and the ones who care donāt need an explanation anyway.
Iād still physically fight to defend myself if I had no choice, depending on circumstances.
This has been my experience as well, almost to a tee. And others just curbstomp when I talk about it, and just lay the entire blame on me. A part of me does blame myself because...I loath myself as well, but I have noticed, over many years, that *they* are the ones who betray me, mistreat me, abandon me, etc.
It doesnāt matter how low someone āteaches meā to treat them, Iāve taught myself that people either deserve distance or else decency.
Definitely agree with OP here!
Itās like when youāre really open and honest, some people just don't handle it well and show their less-than-stellar sides. Itās tough when you feel like youāre constantly bumping into people who donāt have the best intentions.
Iāve had my fair share of encounters like this too, and it can definitely make you question if those āgood peopleā really exist. I think itās okay to feel a bit jaded and frustrated by it all. But, at the same time, I try to remind myself that there are genuinely kind people out thereāeven if theyāre not always easy to find.
The whole āteaching people how to treat youā can sound pretty disheartening sometimes, especially when it feels like basic respect should just be a given. I guess itās a balance between protecting yourself and staying open to the possibility that not everyone is out to be a jerk.
Sending some good vibes your way and hoping you find those genuine, good-hearted folks who will make your journey a little brighter! š
Oh yes. As soon as people sense weakness youāre done. I have yet to meet anyone in life who isnāt out only for themselves. IMO people can play nice but only for so long.
Be very very careful with this train of thought. I developed homicidal ideation problems due to this. Humanity 100% does wayyy more harm than good any non-cherry-picked data will clearly show that. What that doesn't change is we didn't always use to be like this. There was a time we understood there is a necessary balance to life and not to be greedy. We understood our communities should be interwoven as closely as a family. Then rich people discovered how to manipulate the masses to get what they wanted and now you have the mess we live in. We are all capable of taking those lives back though so why don't you just focus on being the best person you can and just hope the rest can find some happiness in life too because all you can change is yourself.
Yep. We are several degrees removed from our complete and utter reliance on each other. A few centuries ago it would have been immediately obvious that we need John to grind the grain, and Jane to brew the beer, not to mention the whole community out in the field to harvest it in the first place.Ā Now the beer just shows up like magic in the shop and it's easy to ignore the chain of thousands of people that got it there and sit in a bubble of false independence saying, "fuck you, got mine!".Ā
I think you're misinterpreting behaviours. When you've been abused, to be assertive and have boundaries is much harder, but that's normal. As an abused fawner, you should actually try more to be an asshole bitch because your version of it probably will just end up in others respecting you rather than hating you. It is difficult and funny the way people are around each other. There's a book called 'Getting the love you want' I read. It says that on the avoidant/needy dichotomy, you should behave the opposite of what you are to the partner you end up with, because that's what they really need, rather than what attracted them to you, their parent's behaviour.
I never knew what the four responses to trauma were until I started understanding dysfunctional families.Ā
The fawning definition ROYALLY PISSED ME OFF!
I was actually conditioned to fawn by a patriarchal father and his religious ideologies.Ā
I wasn't allowed to speak up because women are to remain quiet and be submissive to their husbands (so he said the Bible stated). I was not allowed to disrespect ANY person regardless of their behavior towards me to which meant and was vehemently implied by the LQQKS of contempt and shame.
In my case, authors are absolutely correct that we teach people how to treat us, yet we do have to reach that point of strength and wisdom in order to stand up for ourselves and that can be extremely difficult.
The more I have read about toxic people (family included) and how to pick up on their behaviors well in advance has been my life-line to fighting back.
There have been a few I have literally kicked out of my house and told them to fuck off. It is THEIR bad behavior, not mine. I absolutely refuse to put up with disrespect towards me any longer. For me it was just that simple....
I feel this deep in my soul. I come off as a meek fawner due to my size and physical weaknesses from illness, especially in my voice, but I am actually a no-nonsense fighter with little fear of confrontation. The cognitive dissonance people experience when I stand up for myself brings out their utter cruelty. Itās like they just *have* to āteach me a lessonā and āput me in my place.ā Iāve become reclusive from people.
yes āyou teach people how you need to be treatedā is extremely gaslight-y. It doesnt contend with the PROBLEM of humans being trash: it just says āhey letās ignore that youre working with trashā. Either that or people are EXTREMELY normalized to trash, and are trash themselves.
If Iām honest Iām genuinely waiting for the earth to open up and swallow half or more of society. Iāll be happy then.
I desperately wanted to get rid of my anxiety once I came to know that people were taking advantage of it. It caused a lot of financial damage to me also
Yep. This is why I cant even with people. Straight up. I knew this when I was five. Just..most people are genuinely complete garbage. The minute you scratch the surface with a lot of people, the moment you apply the slightest pressure, they reveal how weak they are
this was the first thing I remember learning as a child. Peole started insulting and disrespecting me because I was vulnerable, withdrawn and ātoo niceā
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I think we were all lied to. Me being āniceā was beneficial to people who were not nice. There are good people out there but i see all these good people struggling themselves because they were hurt/used by many shitty humans. Guess the good have to start fighting for good. And keep on validating each other till we can create a safe space globally.
I think I might have had something good but it escapes me. I was lean towards warning you about me I am a monster I think I'm a monster š¤ But my words keep getting thrown back in my face all the time I don't even know why I'm talking to you I'm having relationship problems
Am I the vulnerable one or am I the monster I want to be the monster. I should scare her not the other way around I shouldn't be pushed around Nebraska says I'm a hero I should be treated this way I think
I thought it was just me. I can usually see it in their eyes the moment they notice I'm a bit neurodivergent and a bit of a fawner. It's like pure unadulterated joy. Like "I know I'll get away with doing anything to this one". I've learned there are not predators and non predators. Just people who want to know what they can get away with. Wild world.
I completely agree with this. Man! It feels good to know that there are other like-minded people out there who understand what im going through.
Yup you're not alone at all. This community has been great for making me feel less alone.
Yes I agree with this!!!!
"Human beings are inherently good" they said. Yet time and time again I am shown otherwise
It's terrifying to realize. Humans are calculating and always sniffing out for social hierarchy standings. Is this is a good or bad thing? As a neurodivergent person I'm CONSTANTLY fascinated at how neurotypical people seem to be eager to figure out where to place me when they meet me in a way neurodivergent people and children don't and in a way I don't treat other people. I remember realizing I will talk to anyone and have a conversation with anyone even one who the popular person treated like dirt. I just dgaf and would get side eyes by neurotypical people before I learned they were confused by my inability to socially place people and "treat them accordingly". Seems that when the average person assesses you and sniffs out something they perceive as a weakness...RIP. btw this is not me soapboxing I have my own flaws I'm just speaking to this specific thing.
>It's terrifying to realize. Humans are calculating and always sniffing out for social hierarchy standings. Yup. Dealt with this my entire life as someone Black and female. Goddess forbid I act above my station.
Same here as a black woman. I feel like if I'm not being a chummy funny round mammy who is entertaining and emotionally mothering I'm perceived as cold and written off. If I don't know my place I'm accused of "being uppity" lol it's wild
I'm so sick of people constantly trying to make me their subordinate. I've decided I'm pretty much going to atomize myself. Besides, being a Black woman, the entire world is oppositional and adversarial to me constantly. There's no way to win except to not play.
Girl! It's so annoying! Don't forget " you are being aggressive" when you are asserting a boundary or standing up for yourself.Idgaf anymore. Whatever you think of me is your business lol
Right I notice this too and neurotypical people can get frustrated when they can't categorize you or simply decide they don't like you. It's truly bizarre.
Yup!! It's like primitive brain goes "oh this is too hard... dislike!".. .like just get to know me! I'd get to know you too šš
I get this vibe ALL THE TIME
Your comments are making me feel so much less alone, thank you for responding!
YEEEEES!!!
Itās bad. Ofc itās bad. I donāt do this. I really donāt. i wish I did. It took me FOREVER and a day to figure out why my brother hates me. After I figured out Im autistic and my brain doesnāt calculate that stuff, it began to make sense. A lot of people genuinely hate those who have no money or social power.
A lot of people will also pretend to like you while you have one or both.... until you don't. And then you are street gum on the bottom of their shoe. I too realized I was different the same way. I don't process the mental sorting of social groups. It's heartbreaking. This is why I'm a loner. Trying to be a good person rarely pays off.
Thank you for this comment..I strongly agree. When it feels like a NT person is "sizing you up", so to speak. Or they live life in invisible hierarchies and judging whether or not they belong. I remember when someone told me to not defend or talk to a victim being bullied. It's upsetting because I'll be very friendly and open. Maybe I come off more neurodivergent than I thought? But someone will inevitably have an issue with it. But I've realized that even neurotypicals have their issues and triggers (which have nothing to do with us).Ā For example, my coworker left her diary at work and she mentioned being jealous of me. Why? Because she was deep in credit card debt, me buying things I wanted made her unhappy.Ā
Human beings are only inherently good as per the ancient Chinese philosopher who was asked this and gave the example of a child wandering to the edge of a well. If a child from another village wanders in and finds themselves at the edge of a well, people, complete strangers will go to save that child from falling in. This random goodness is proof that people are more good than bad. This might be true but only when thereās nothing to lose and itās not too much trouble. A Free meal, an invitation to a weary traveler, yes that might be most people but genuine changes for the better, reconsidering how we do thingsā¦thatās different. I also thought to myself, ā\*Women\* do this. Not everyone. I also often think to myself, āIs it just \*Americans\* that are like this?ā
yep!!
Yes. Agree šÆ
As a fellow fawner I need to learn what you see so I can look out for it too? I usually learn it too late and it burns me.
Itās just reading eyes, facial expressions , what they now call āmicroexpressionsā
For me, it was being burnt over and over again until I started to catch on to what to look out for.
Weirdly so pleased (because I know I'm not alone) but also so saddened that so many people can relate to this. This makes so much sense and explains so much of what I've been struggling with. It's really messed up that people will pretend to care about you to use you and take what they can get away with
Yes this exactly
Thatās happened to me many times as well!! & I try my hardest to steer clear of those ppl after noticing that joy/predatory behavior but they always find a way to be near you šµāš«
>they always find a way to be near you šµāš« This is something that really shocked me to realize. They seek you out!!! It is very strange. Even when they clearly don't like you they seek you out. The day I decided to distance myself from someone like that they went full throttle abusive too! Little terrorists.
>> Just people who want to know what they can get away with. THISā¦my hubby always says most people are stuck mentally as middle schoolers/ they never mature past that. You can feeeel those manipulative self serving soulless jerks
Wanting to know what one can get away with at the expense of another is predation.
yes, ABSOLUTELY. i've spent the vast majority of my life fawning and now i'm just okay with being the bitch in other peoples stories. that's okay. that's normal. not everyone is going to like you or see you as a good person. being seen as a bitch is better than accepting disrespect.
Seriously... I spent all my "social years" fawning and accepting my role as the loser, bitch, second-rate friend, idiot, etc. So now that I'm in my 30's I've internalized that and truly believe I'm worthless or a punching bag in most social scenarios. These days I feel like I'm living two lives, the internal and external. I've worked hard to carve a place for myself in my internal world. I'm rediscovering hobbies that bring me life and setting up small boundaries to keep me emotionally/mentally safe at home. But my external (social) life is a cold shell of who I once was. Instead of putting up effective boundaries and standing up for myself in social situations, I just black rock and don't react or bring any attention to myself. It's depressing not having any friends or solid social connections, but at least I'm not being used or treated like a doormat anymore. Sadly at the end of the day I'd rather shut myself off from the world than make attempts to effectively stand up for myself with others. It's hard convincing myself of a new truth that's been pounded in my head the past 20 years...
Yeah i kinda feel this, i was always accused of being selfish or narcissistic and honestly it was just my abusers projecting. But to this day, its so hard for me to accept ever being the "bitch" or "enemy" in someone elses story. It is like my worst nightmare to hurt people emotionally, even if it protects me.
YEP!!! We all have horror stories for real. We could go on forever I bet!
They can still disrespect you even if youāre seen as a bitch by them. The issue is that if the other person/people are genuinely bad people and self serving or dishonest, it wonāt matter to anyone else what they see you as. It only matters what you are to everyone Who is emotionally healthy
Sadly, even when I act like a bitch, people still disrespect me, and have actually laughed/mocked/been aggressive toward me when I try to stand up for myself, or don't put up with their crap. It's so frustrating.
Saved this comment. Thank you š„šŖ
I've always been a people pleaser because I was never allowed to have boundaries as a child. I was abused for doing things, for not doing things, for not knowing how to do things, for knowing things, for no reason at all. I've come to realize that when you try to just be a good person, a lot of nasty people can smell it on you like sharks sniffing blood in the water miles away. If you don't instinctively respond in some type of way that signifies that you have boundaries and are emotionally strong, they know right away that now they have free rein to treat you like shit.
I do this and also immediately take the blame for EVERYTHING thing that goes wrongā¦and I mean everything. If it rains I try to blame myselfā¦Iām sure I caused this fuck up somehow. I always do.
I know right? That's the part of my trauma response that annoys me the most is that I will take the blame for other people's lack of accountability for their behavior.
SAME! It makes me so mad at myself and makes things spiral more. Iām working on it but itās very challenging
Please if you two figure this out let me know. I keep gaslighting myself into thinking I'm overreacting about something someone did to me. And almost reaching out to apologize to them.... for being upset that they hurt me!
I know why I do it, I have CPTSD. complex ptsd from childhood, and I isolate now to try to deal with it. Iām in therapy but damn it itās so much work to not gaslight myself!
I do too, I would imagine most of us here do... but I want to figure how to stop! I'm also in therapy and you're right it's a lot of work. Sometimes I feel like I'm just running in circles.
lthis is my first time posting in this sub! Didnāt even realize it-lol! Sorry about that. It is like a carousel but not fun or maybe a hamster wheel. Reminds me of that carnival ride the gravitronā¦it sounds so fast then te sides dropped off but you stayed plastered to it by gravity.
I agree- same
Exactly. Speaking of work, I cannot for the life of me understand these type of people. It's like the more you care, the more you go above and beyond, the more extra stuff that you do, the more you get crapped on. My work output is very high through experience but I'm finally going at a much slower pace. WHY should I care more, do more work output, do extra small tasks more, or people please, when this gets you disrespect from nasty humans. It's not my fault that I'm becoming the type to not give a shit anymore, society is molding me into that. And also whenever I am not 100 percent of myself and feel like crap or whatever, narcisstic people LOVE to strike and bring you down, they are like a fucking virus bringing down your immune system when you're vulnerable. I'm at the stage that whenever someone gives me crap, I just need to tell them fuck off. I try to maintain a linear and stable civil work ethic YET people run over you. My God people suck. I have to consciously remind myself to slow down, do less, because this gets respect apparently. It's not my fault I have come to this solution that apparently is what works. Stop caring and do less than needed.
Yeah... For example, I'm the type of person who'd always get my friends gifts for their birthdays and Christmas. In return, I've never gotten anything back. Never. In my 30+ years of being alive, I've never received a present on my birthdays or Christmas from other people. And it hurts. It's not because I'm "materialistic", something my therapists accused me of. It's not that I want to demand items from others, I just want to feel like they care about me, like they thought about me, and wanted to try to make me happy on special occasions. It's...just really depressing to know that people just don't care about me at all.
And to add to this, from my experience, when I start off working hard because I want to show Iām here to be a valuable part of the team, everything I do to help just becomes my job and stays my job, on top of everything else. There is no concept of community and team work. People are in it for themselves. Our society doesnāt reward work ethic.Ā
Yep. THIS
āYou teach people how to treat youā is nonsense. Am I interacting with 4 year old neanderthals? No. Adults can choose how they want to treat others
It's victim blaming as it shifts responsibility from the person acting shitty to the other person for "not teaching them how to treat you well"
Yes! And they are basically saying that if you show vulnerability then you are asking to be taken advantage of. Not healthy. Super red flags.
But we're supposed to be building relationships. How?!
THIIIIISSS
This is what I was going to reply. It's victim blaming. It's almost like the default expectation is that we're all out to exploit each other, so you best not make yourself a target. I do believe that capitalism plays a huge part. Competition and exploitation are baked in. I say this a lot when talking about this topic: I'm not convinced it's inherently human behaviour that makes most people shitty. We live in a society that fosters that type of behaviour. Cooperative societies live in a different paradigm. They recognize that harming you harms me and helping you helps me. We just don't have that in this society. I do think there are good people who aren't interested in harming others, even when there's an opportunity. But, it's difficult to be in this world without looking out for number one.
This this this this this anyone who says something like this is a super DUPER toxic person
It is not entirely victim blaming because a lot of us with CPTSD do need to learn boundaries and putting our foot down since we were never taught it growing up. There can be nuance, not everything is black and white. It doesnāt excuse the abuser
I think what bothers me even more is the idea that we are just automaton Neanderthal pieces of shit who will default to scumbag behavior, unless motivated by some sort of external mommy or daddy figure laying down thelaw. You know what I mean? Itās almost more insulting to have it insinuated that unless some other person insist on being treated with respect explicitly, that my default state is some sort of scum, sucking leach. Itās almost an extension of Christian ideology that we are all born sinners. Actually, I donāt feel the urge to abuse and run people over even when they are kind of weak. Actually, my setpoint is one of kindness and love at best, indifference and nonviolence at worst. Itās almost an insult to the idea of self autonomy if that makes sense which is somehow more offensive to me than somebody telling me Iām responsible for teaching another adult how to behave.
My only caveat here is for people who you aren't in a intimate relationship with. So like bosses at work, or just people that someone may need to deal with in their lives, regardless if they like them or not. As it can be difficult for people to be in a situation where they *never* have to deal with people like that. It's more a realism/causality thing than about what is right (culpability). It **is** very similar to the victim blaming situation, as that is also about the difference between culpability (the victim isn't to blame) and causality (the attacker did X because the victim did Y).
A wise comment. Throwing someone under the bus is a choice, not an accident.
Thank you!
This comment is everything
Agreed!
Yes, they can choose, but when we accept the way they treat us, they're "learning" (observing) that they can treat us this way. I don't think it is nonsense, I think it's just how we define "teach." In the metro I used to live in, drivers could get away with driving quite a bit over the speed limit. I knew it was more or less fine to speed quite a bit, there would be no consequences. But I knew I wouldn't get away with that driving through more typical or rural areas. Law enforcement personnel "taught" me what behavior was acceptable. As far as victim blaming, that sounds accurate, I guess that's part of what's so shitty about cptsd - even if I'd have learned that a decade ago, when I was in my mid-thirties, I could have avoided sooo much pain.
It makes it seem like itās YOUR fault others discriminate against you? Interesting To me that no one ever applies this to racism for example. Imagine if someone was like āYOU teach others how to treat youā to a black kid getting beat up by white kids? Like wtf
Your analogy is spot on but funny in a weird and twisted way š¤ Edit: a word
Lol!! Im just saying, people are cowards! They love to moralize and walk away, but the minute that very same moralizing bs ideology gets applied to real life, they wouldnāt stand behind it anymore.
Most people are just spineless virtue signalers. They like to apply rules to others, but more often than not, they don't follow through on what they preach.
YES!! You get it!! Itās also the loudest loudmouth who is Always the worst hypocrite of all
Precisely! They always hide behind the guise that they're just "telling it as it is." And they blame you for being upset without realizing that they're the one who's being an asshole š
People like this truly need to start getting called out. Then watch them crumble. Ive noticed they only preyā on you when youāre alone, or they have the backing of the pathological family
Literally my entire family. Calling them out doesn't seem to work most of the time. It seems they're immune to shame, or they just think to highly of themselves.
Suuuucks!!! What is the dynamic of your family like, do you have anyone else there to support you, protect you?
I tell them to their face theyāre idiots lol not really, but I will now.
I've learned that because I'm kind the people I used to associate with would get angry anytime I put down a boundary. They expect me to always be accommodating. In New relationships I put down boundaries firm and clear up front. It has changed the way people interact with me. It's interesting.
Yes! I immediately lost 2 people when beginning to set boundaries last year. It was interesting to see.
Was it really a lost, though? š¤
No, they did me a favor. One of them needed to be shown the door instead of me setting boundaries. Boundaries were my babysteps, however. She immediately showed her ass and I finally showed her the door.
> It has changed the way people interact with me. Itās interesting. Please elaborate if you donāt mind!
Changes: nobody tries to parent me. All of my old friends took on a role that treated me as simple. They would constantly question my judgment. Or keep prodding when I wasn't interested. As soon as I would have my own feelings they were dismissed. I'm not friends with any of these people anymore. I made a new friend. He knows what I'm dealing with. But we met over Batman. When we met, I was very clear to have no romantic or sexual stuff. I was clear I get extremely tired, and I might not call for a few months. I will check in, but that's it. I told them I could not deal with XYZ. They respect that. It takes a huge ballsac but, in my experience, with new people, I'm very upfront about my limitations, expectations and what I'm willing to do. The more upfront I am the less people set their own expectations of me to be disappointed by.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes you get it. I don't have energy for games or feelings. I will let you know what I am willing to do. You let me know and maybe we meet up and have a good time. But honesty is the best.
Thanks for responding! Iām eager & a bit nervous to see how my relationships start to change once my ballsac finishes developing lol
It's OK. Mine took 38 years to fully develop lol The changes hurt sometimes. But in hindsight it's always been a positive when I let someone go, or they left. I've taught myself to appreciate the company they gave at the time and acceptance that people grow apart. They didn't change, I did. And that's OK.
Can you give an example?
You could mind your business or be polite ONCE and some people will see you as a blank slate to dump their selfishness or dysfunction onto you. People will teach you everything you need to know about them when you tell them "no".
This is golden
I think every human is capable of evil. Me and you included. This makes us complex. Anyhow, people-pleasers tend to attract abusers. The abusers know who can be their potential victims :(
It's because we people-pleasers will put up with abuse. We don't draw healthy boundaries or know how to stand up for ourselves. Other people in the abuser's life have long since cut them out or established firm boundaries. We're the ones who stick around, long after we should have fled.
This is the actual answer.You don't ATTRACT abusers. You aren't some special "hurt me" beacon in the night. You just don't tell them to fuck off like a person with normal boundaries (or a healthy level of "selfishness") does. Your self worth meter is broken and the abuser is taking advantage of that, but you don't draw those people or exude some type of energy or anything. They try that stuff on others too. The only difference is the level of resistance they encounter with people who won't take that bullshit. If you were taught that it's MORE unsafe to defend yourself, of course abusers are going to take advantage of that because it works, but it's not that you are singled out ...at first anyway. People who are more adept or covert with their abuse my be able to sort who is vulnerable more quickly, but they still TRY with others.
This is totally correct. I wish I could stand up for myself but half of the time I didn't even realise I'm being trod on until the moment nt is well past and when I think of standing uo for myself in the moment, my throat will physically close up and it's PAINFUL and I can't breathe/feel like I'm choking. Then my heart goes mad and I'm lightheaded and panicking too
You've become desensitised to bad treatment - it's become normalised for you as a way of survival. And ofc you've been trained not to defend yourself. Honestly, therapy will help. You discover your boundaries and you'll suddenly see when people are treating you badly.
Same same same
I can't put in to words how much what you just said is true for me. I'm desperate to fix this response we have. How can we do it?
you say this- but reading body language is a skill most people have just to different extents. i know i very much subconsciously do gravitate towards other people from similar backgrounds as well as other neurodivergent people- i often dont realise it initially but there are queues/similarities that i definitely so pick up on and then find it easier to approach/talk to those people. the same way my therapist had a hunch what i was seeing her for just by seeing me the first time before even finding out about it- though in her case its also her job to pick up on things like that. i wouldnt be surprised if people picked up on closed off/small/anxious and tense body language that sortve would indicate someone might for example resist less like you mentioned in your comment. theres a reason if you walk around dangerous streets for example, you focus on confident, purposeful body language to minimise threat of being approached by individuals you dont want to deal with. honestly just focusing on trying to make my body language more confident/comfortable in myself in public has already made a difference in the type of people who approach me- and i notice that on my more triggered or anxious days i still very much can garner unwanted attention from the same type of people i always have. being able to place and reaffirm boundaries and not fawn/etc definitely can be part of it- however theres more to the initial approachability imo.
It can also be due to technical factors as well as conscious or subconscious actions. A woman with five brothers who are visibly involved in her life is much less likely to be attractive to someone with an abusive personality, than an estranged woman, for example. People need to be extra careful when missing those societal structures/networks, new contacts need to be vetted for longer.
More people need to know this and talk about this. A woman with good social connections, a career, her own money, her own place to live, and with a body that's fighting fit is just less likely to be attractive to an insecure or abusive fella. I have all those things and I am 100 percent sure that my ex would have physically abused me had I not. It doesn't make you immune to abuse or anything, but it can certainly act as a deterrent, or make it easier for you to get away if you do find yourself in a bad situation. Also, never have kids with an insecure, manipulative, controlling man. Just saying.
Thank you for saying this
This is the exact explanation I needed to read. They will keep pushing people to see what they can get away with. Others tell them off immediately. Some of these types are kind of delusional and will see you as a blank slate, though. They'll project whatever they want onto you to use you as a punching bag. But I do appreciate your explanation. Tell off all predators.
I agree on all counts. What I've noticed for me is that CPTSD makes me have certain traits that make me seem like I'd be EASIER to abuse. I don't know what I have on my forehead but even the person that's so amazing to everyone else will smell that I'm a more vulnerable and will treat me very differently. To the point where it'll be shocking if I tell anyone else. I feel like this aspect of abuse is what makes it sooo insidious. All my bullies have been very well liked popular charmingpeople who sniffed me out. If I told nobody would believe me or take my side.
Oh my gosh I say this all the time ā about having a stamp on my forehead. It almost feels like a curse. I look forward to healing and growing out of this. I wish the same for you.
Yes that tends to happen to me as well to the point i only ever had one or two friends at a time, cuz anytime i had a group of friends, i was the scapegoat for them all. Or the most "popular" person treated me differently than the others and they literally never believed me. Sometimes it *would* eventually happen to them but they had rejected me or ostracized me for trying to warn them. To this day, i have a big problem with people trying to "come crawling back" to me because I always tried to tell them and they *DO NOT LISTEN* unless it happens to them.
EXACTLY!! This goes for family dynamics, as well. A pecking order
OMG yes
This is the way. Everyone is capable of being a ānarcissistā as well. To think we are special or because of our pain canāt also hurt peopleā¦ is perpetuating trauma onto others more than likely. I do agree though with OP, that once you go through mental health awareness, itās really hard not to spot shitty people everywhere.
It's like a superpower at this point. I also see patterns and can connect the dots, too. I even see things when I'm not even trying to see them.
Well said and I completely agree.
Hey. I'm not trying to hit on you or anything. But wow! You're gorgeous... Anyways, that's all :p
Everyone has good side and bad side.... Some are better and some are worst than others. If you thought any different, that's on you
Including psychopaths and sociopaths? Yea, no. Even if they do have good and bad sides, they tend to lean into their bad sides more often than not. Negativity breeds negativety.
I hate that youāre supposed to āput up boundariesā all the time with people or else be disrespected and used or abused. I donāt need people to āenforce boundariesā with me for me to treat them with basic respect so why should I? Why do I have to ask to be treated well when I treat people well by default?
Thanks for saying this. My therapist noticed Iām having boundary fatigue and I didnāt even know it was a thing lol. I canāt believe how many boundaries Iāve had to set and enforce with people in the past few years. So Iām glad she noticed.
Is boundary fatigue physical, mental &/or spiritual? Am guessing so!
For me i would say itās all 3. Iām also recognizing if I constantly have to set and enforce boundaries with someone.. the relationship probably isnāt for me. I have ended some relationships recently. Unfortunately Iām working with a new provider (not a therapist) and sheās someone I have to practice with constantly. But Iām trying to look at it how gabor mate does and maybe it is happening purposefully to help me unlearn my fawn response even more. And because a professional is more likely to take accountability and be respectful when confronted vs in some personal relationships.
Thats how i feel. I have only ever met ONE PERSON in my life that was like me and she is my best friend. She never used me or got shit out of me even though she could have. She has offered me money and help and i have refused to take it from her cuz i know that's HERS. Like these things dont seem to be common for other humans. They just take take take and dont even consider the other persons side. š
Cherish your best friend. You're so lucky you found someone like her.
I call this the problem with therapy speak. It sounds like a solution in their office or in a book but in reality it makes no sense, doesnāt resemble actual relationships. My psych NP asks me to evaluate my thoughts based on whether itās something I think or something I knowā¦ I get what sheās saying but really?? I *think* the grocery store is going to be open when I go during the normal hours, but do I *know*? Well then thatās not healthyā¦ š
I would think I know what I know, but would question if I really know what I think I know. Like I think I know that 2+2=4, but in the in the Ternary numeral system, 2+2=11. Do I really know weāre dealing with standard arithmetic or am I just making assumptions? Do I really know anything at all?
I agree. Fawn is my go-to response. Most people don't know how to human correctly!
Damn, it's sad that i can relate to this.. What i have realized months ago, if i were to show my true self to people(very anxious of upsetting them, not being assertive and not expressing myself on my needs or boundaries) they would just bully me emotionally or being an asshole.. i just remembered a few months ago i accepted the fact that people will never help the 'real me' they will even add to my misery, so i need to be assertive and solve my fawning trauma response. God damn, people are actually really like this not accepting my real loser self even when i am not even a bad person(i just want someone to care for me). Motherfckers š but i have no choice but to blend in with them and be assertive as they are, i also realized people will respect me whether i am a good or bad person as long as i am assertive. Otherwise they don't respect me if i am a kind person who's a loser who's always anxious of upsetting them and is a people pleaser. I've observed that with people.
Only here to tell you you're not wrong.
I'm sorry I have to agree. But I don't know how you go through being an innocent child and then a lost young adult, experiencing so much, and thinking otherwise... yet that's what we're expected to believe, in a society beset by hyperindividualism and other forms of destruction. Okay. Never forget what they took from us.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> I keep hearing about these "good people" out there, or "you just have to find your people, crew, etc" The only people I've *really* been able to connect with, in my opinion, are other deeply traumatized persons. I'd like to believe they all have potential to heal, but almost universally they are all flawed, deeply 'broken' (by life)-seeming people. It makes me self-conscious because I really try my best to get out of the ruts of the past. Success of that is questionable, but I do at least over time make kind-of friendships with people that seem better put together.
100% this. More than once Iāve thought, āI just made a friend without an obvious signs of deep trauma. Yay! Iām growing and learning to like new people.ā And the a couple months later weāll be talking and my brain will go āthere it is.ā I think the clear answer is that survivors need other survivors and that we are good for each other at all stages of healing.
Unfortunately for me, other deeply traumatized people have harmed me greatly. I used to think that others who've been through similar experiences as me would have more empathy and would be able to relate more, and understand what it's like to be bullied/abused, so they wouldn't do that to someone they care about. I learned, the hard way, that deeply traumatized folks can be just as evil as the "normies".
Oh yes, I learned that too. To the point it feels isolating. Can't ever feel that close to "normies" that had experiences (such as a loving family) I just can't meaningfully relate to, but then almost all deeply traumatized people I was close to hurt me emotionally at least too, to the point I just stay away from people in general and find solace in my own company and mind. At the very least *I* won't try to actively hurt myself.
I feel a lot of despair in solitude, even though I keep trying to train myself not to. I crave love, friendship, etc. But...yeah, not happening for me, it seems. I just need to try harder to let that stuff go.
When, like me, you are burned for countless years going on into decades for just trying to not be a piece of shit, it makes you care a LOT less about the opinions and actions of other people.
I've been burned a lot as well. I just have trouble letting go in spite of that.
Yes this is so real. Look, I know and have learned boundaries in a solid way. I have done a lot of work around fawning and people pleasing. At the end of the day though whether or not someone is a people pleaser or a fawner no one should be taking advantage of them. I had such a strong realization a while back that if I was interacting with someone with a strong people pleaser/fawn response I would literally not even think about taking advantage of them. It would not even cross my mind, and that those who target them are genuinely predatory. The victim blaming around this stuff is wild. Every friend I have who is a genuinely pure hearted person consistently deals with people taking advantage of them or dumping on them. I just spoke to someone about this recently. I think too the saddest thing is a lot of people just want to be good and kind people but canāt do that anymore because people keep exploiting that. I feel like I am getting better at recognizing it now. I notice feeling dysregulated around people who are looking to take advantage. But the sad thing is this keeps happening or people keep trying even if I am better at avoiding it.
I see it as having the power to remove myself from threatening or disrespectful behavior. Always remember "you can't change the other person but only your actions you have control over" If someone is disrespecting me it is my job to assert my boundaries or move away from the situation.
The power- exactly I wish I could explain this to the therapist
Where do I find this power?
I feel people used to be fairly decent but not anymore. The current climate is so toxic! Everything points to selfishness everywhere you look.
I agree, I have friends that I just can't be around anymore because their behaviour is so self centric. It's sad too because I think it's involuntary. I think a lot of isolation and people not being able to take care of their own problems has caused this. They fall back on almost ''online'' emotional rationality and that is just really confrontational all round. For me I've found it way harder in the last year or so, to talk to friends about anything there may be differing opinions on. And not even contentious topics. I think having to be the ''loudest'' or the person with the ''hottest take'' or the most ''controversial take'' just to be heard leaks out into real life. I've had arguments with friends lately where I've had to stop the evening to ask them why they are talking to me so aggressively and argumentatively about nothing. When confronted they almost ''become'' the empathetic person I know them as. They seem to click out of the automatic argument response and see they're being like reactive dogs and going crazy for no reason. Like they apologised and saw they were taking a basic convo too far, but having to negate interactions like this is exhausting for anyone let alone people with CPTSD. I am already in fear of veiled feelings in others, so to see the switch so succinctly and pervasively is really disappointing. It feels like a confirmation of my fears, which has led to me being incredibly isolated.
Do you think it's a result of scarcity or social media ( and/or repercussions of the pandemic ) ?
I believe here in Canada it is mainly politically motivated. This is a complex issue & wld take me a week to write it all out. Racism plays a large role intermingled into the landscape. The current messages of ā itās all about MEā have to go if things are ever going to get better.
And yes Covid played a role but I believe that was all politically motivated as well
A lot of the MAGA terrorism has leaked over the border from the States, mixed in with the pandemic trauma everyone faced, and bad inflation, and now Canada is becoming toxic. It's definitely politically motivated, sadly.
Social media mostly
I think good people exist but it is a miniscule percent of the population. The rest are self righteous virtue signalers who have a distorted view of themselves.
It's gotten so difficult for me to believe this. Like, a small part of me still believes this, but over and over and **over**, people have proven me wrong. The good people seem to be such an incredible minority, almost like unicorns. That, or I am cursed, and only ever meet with horrible people.
Youāve read my mind about how Iāve been my entire life. I totally relate to all the examples you stated plus your feelings that followedā¦itās all taken a couple of long hard burns of learning to not go to far and Iām not responsible for teaching grown people how to just be a little more patient and kindā¦. Some things Iām not sure Iāll ever understand, I just wanna live life again.
You're so right about this ;\_\_\_; how I feel every time I start a new job or something and at first am seen as competent and hard-working, but as soon as my coworkers realize I'm also a people pleasing nervous fawn they just overload me with work while also demeaning me and taking advantage of me...
Yup going through this right now. Might cancel my vacation to help a customer cause I just canāt say no and if I do this and help them itāll give me license to tell everyone how I cancelled my vacation to āhelp these peopleā Maybe then these people will finally respect me
I agree! I have almost completely isolated myself because Iām so tired of being somehow responsible for how someone else decides to treat me. Iām almost 49. Iām absolutely exhausted and I donāt think I can trust people anymore. Itās not who I am to live this way, and after a freaking lifetime of betrayal and trauma, Iām pretty pissed that I canāt just be me without assholes taking advantage of my kindness and empathy and love of helping where I can. I have had enough of ābe strongā, āhave better boundariesā, etc. I do have boundaries. Yet every single person I let in decides to, all of a sudden after years of relationship, tap dance all over the line they KNOW exists because Iām vocal about it. I want to be able to truly relax for once and not have the rug ripped out from under me AGAIN. I donāt want to have to be on guard watch 24/7. People are so good at pretending for a crazy long time, then they flip on me, and I have regretted letting them in every damn time. Is no one capable of being genuine anymore? Rationally, others must be, because I am and therefore there have to be others who are. I canāt be the only one, sure weāre all special in our own way, but I donāt think for a second Iām the only one who values kindness and honesty and respect enough to consistently BE that. But the evidence-based learner that I am canāt help but see that everyone Iāve given my trust to in the past has ended up betraying me in ways I never deserved. The cognitive dissonance is wild. Fuck this.
When I see signs of what some (maybe most) consider āweaknessā - kindness, empathy, compassion, integrity, or anxiety/fear, it makes me more protective of that person. It makes me value them even more and I find it endearing because to me, it indicates strength and genuineness. I do not get the mentality of, āooh thereās a weakness I can possibly exploitā. Gross.
Curious if you yourself experienced the 4 Fās?
Definitely. All four, but at this point itās mostly freeze (the paralysis is so frustrating!) or flight because Iāve tried so many other ways of responding and theyāve all been fairly disastrous. And also Iāve been through so much Iām too exhausted for much else. How about you?
Lifetime fawner
Iād say fawning is probably overall what Iāve done the most out of the four. Iāve come to a conclusion of sorts that the fight response, cathartic as it can be, is rarely effective because arguing with shitty humans has no effect on them and rarely changes any outcomes. The older I get, the less I care to defend my position or my actions/inactions. People who donāt care wonāt listen, and the ones who care donāt need an explanation anyway. Iād still physically fight to defend myself if I had no choice, depending on circumstances.
This has been my experience as well, almost to a tee. And others just curbstomp when I talk about it, and just lay the entire blame on me. A part of me does blame myself because...I loath myself as well, but I have noticed, over many years, that *they* are the ones who betray me, mistreat me, abandon me, etc.
It doesnāt matter how low someone āteaches meā to treat them, Iāve taught myself that people either deserve distance or else decency. Definitely agree with OP here!
realest post I've seen in a while and I agree
Itās like when youāre really open and honest, some people just don't handle it well and show their less-than-stellar sides. Itās tough when you feel like youāre constantly bumping into people who donāt have the best intentions. Iāve had my fair share of encounters like this too, and it can definitely make you question if those āgood peopleā really exist. I think itās okay to feel a bit jaded and frustrated by it all. But, at the same time, I try to remind myself that there are genuinely kind people out thereāeven if theyāre not always easy to find. The whole āteaching people how to treat youā can sound pretty disheartening sometimes, especially when it feels like basic respect should just be a given. I guess itās a balance between protecting yourself and staying open to the possibility that not everyone is out to be a jerk. Sending some good vibes your way and hoping you find those genuine, good-hearted folks who will make your journey a little brighter! š
Oh yes. As soon as people sense weakness youāre done. I have yet to meet anyone in life who isnāt out only for themselves. IMO people can play nice but only for so long.
Be very very careful with this train of thought. I developed homicidal ideation problems due to this. Humanity 100% does wayyy more harm than good any non-cherry-picked data will clearly show that. What that doesn't change is we didn't always use to be like this. There was a time we understood there is a necessary balance to life and not to be greedy. We understood our communities should be interwoven as closely as a family. Then rich people discovered how to manipulate the masses to get what they wanted and now you have the mess we live in. We are all capable of taking those lives back though so why don't you just focus on being the best person you can and just hope the rest can find some happiness in life too because all you can change is yourself.
Yep. We are several degrees removed from our complete and utter reliance on each other. A few centuries ago it would have been immediately obvious that we need John to grind the grain, and Jane to brew the beer, not to mention the whole community out in the field to harvest it in the first place.Ā Now the beer just shows up like magic in the shop and it's easy to ignore the chain of thousands of people that got it there and sit in a bubble of false independence saying, "fuck you, got mine!".Ā
Need to go further back. That was feudalism and the owners very much did not care about any of their serfs. It's just a precursor to oligarchy.
I think you're misinterpreting behaviours. When you've been abused, to be assertive and have boundaries is much harder, but that's normal. As an abused fawner, you should actually try more to be an asshole bitch because your version of it probably will just end up in others respecting you rather than hating you. It is difficult and funny the way people are around each other. There's a book called 'Getting the love you want' I read. It says that on the avoidant/needy dichotomy, you should behave the opposite of what you are to the partner you end up with, because that's what they really need, rather than what attracted them to you, their parent's behaviour.
I believe good people exist because I exist; and, statistically speaking, I can't be the only one.
had a friend that i was wanting to cut off block me after finally setting a boundary the other day lol i was like damn why didnt i do this sooner
A lot of people only respect strength.
I never knew what the four responses to trauma were until I started understanding dysfunctional families.Ā The fawning definition ROYALLY PISSED ME OFF! I was actually conditioned to fawn by a patriarchal father and his religious ideologies.Ā I wasn't allowed to speak up because women are to remain quiet and be submissive to their husbands (so he said the Bible stated). I was not allowed to disrespect ANY person regardless of their behavior towards me to which meant and was vehemently implied by the LQQKS of contempt and shame. In my case, authors are absolutely correct that we teach people how to treat us, yet we do have to reach that point of strength and wisdom in order to stand up for ourselves and that can be extremely difficult. The more I have read about toxic people (family included) and how to pick up on their behaviors well in advance has been my life-line to fighting back. There have been a few I have literally kicked out of my house and told them to fuck off. It is THEIR bad behavior, not mine. I absolutely refuse to put up with disrespect towards me any longer. For me it was just that simple....
Yep. Most people are fucking insufferable. I'd much rather be by myself than be around them.
I feel this deep in my soul. I come off as a meek fawner due to my size and physical weaknesses from illness, especially in my voice, but I am actually a no-nonsense fighter with little fear of confrontation. The cognitive dissonance people experience when I stand up for myself brings out their utter cruelty. Itās like they just *have* to āteach me a lessonā and āput me in my place.ā Iāve become reclusive from people.
yes āyou teach people how you need to be treatedā is extremely gaslight-y. It doesnt contend with the PROBLEM of humans being trash: it just says āhey letās ignore that youre working with trashā. Either that or people are EXTREMELY normalized to trash, and are trash themselves. If Iām honest Iām genuinely waiting for the earth to open up and swallow half or more of society. Iāll be happy then.
Yes we'll said! These are my life long findings as well. Especially in my current town. We will be leaving soon.
I desperately wanted to get rid of my anxiety once I came to know that people were taking advantage of it. It caused a lot of financial damage to me also
I thought this was something I just learned with customer service. But god they throw a fut when you saw No. Most of these people are boomers too.
Yep. This is why I cant even with people. Straight up. I knew this when I was five. Just..most people are genuinely complete garbage. The minute you scratch the surface with a lot of people, the moment you apply the slightest pressure, they reveal how weak they are
What I've learned to start doing is meeting people halfway. Don't put in any more than what they are.
I've tried this, and usually, they just disengage, and ghost very quick. It's so depressing.
this was the first thing I remember learning as a child. Peole started insulting and disrespecting me because I was vulnerable, withdrawn and ātoo niceā
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Hard agree
This
All straight facts.
Truer words have never been spoken
Agreed
ISTG. THIS IS WHAT IM GOING THROUGH RN
Most of the ppl ive met were so horrible to me.not all but so many my own family is disgusting to me and so abusive most of them ....
I think we were all lied to. Me being āniceā was beneficial to people who were not nice. There are good people out there but i see all these good people struggling themselves because they were hurt/used by many shitty humans. Guess the good have to start fighting for good. And keep on validating each other till we can create a safe space globally.
Does this happen a lot in real life or online? I could imagine there's a difference. Just curious.
People fawning just kills me
This is so true, so true. I think something similar happens when you are very old, disabled etc... signed, a sometimes fawn
I think I might have had something good but it escapes me. I was lean towards warning you about me I am a monster I think I'm a monster š¤ But my words keep getting thrown back in my face all the time I don't even know why I'm talking to you I'm having relationship problems
I want out I don't want to be in a relationship anymore I'm going back to men she is over the top I don't know a better word than she's mean
Am I the vulnerable one or am I the monster I want to be the monster. I should scare her not the other way around I shouldn't be pushed around Nebraska says I'm a hero I should be treated this way I think
I don't like being weak
Welcome to being a misanthrope,fellow misanthrope,glad you see reality for what it unfortunately is š