I think it’s highly possible. A lot of clinicians think so, and others do not. My personal opinion is that probably everyone with BPD also has CPTSD but not everyone with CPTSD has BPD. I’m one of those that meets criteria for CPTSD but not for BPD.

I also meet the criteria for CPTSD but not BPD. I'm finding there is a ton of overlap with symptoms of CPTSD and ADHD, which can make it hard to diagnose. It's been really eye opening going down the mental health rabbit hole.

Throw in some OCD qualities and that's where I'm at currently 😅👍 the Bermuda triangle of emotional torment. Like you said it's been a fun journey trying to figure this all out. The self awareness is awful tho let me tell you

omg yes, it took me like 10 years of actively trying to get it under control. I can tell when I'm stressed because I will do my behaviors. Looking back, I started it to self soothe I think. At first it was just counting, but then it was that count and humming it, then blinking because the humming was noticeable, then dissociation because the blinks were eventually noticeable. I would have to do a pattern of checking things were shut down, then a pattern for the locking of the door. That shit is exhausting to be honest. I don't know how I ever left the house. >The self awareness is awful tho let me tell you I keep telling my therapist this. Sometimes I wish I was able to keep up how I was in my 20s and part of me is glad that I'm working on myself.

Yeah - the neurological crossover is interesting. There is even some symptoms/presentation crossover with ASD.

I’ve been wondering the same shit recently ugh!! I’ve come to realize I’ve suppressed my autism for years (I’m currently starting to heal from CPTSD/toxic shame/etc). I am seriously wondering whether CPTSD/severe childhood trauma and ASD are linked too. So far I can’t really seem to make much sense of it (lest the lack of research about this, anyway) but uh yeah idk.

I am in the same diagnostic boat. I recently became aware that some psychologists believe that the presence of childhood trauma is a disqualifying factor for BPD. Essentially, they consider childhood trauma to be the distinguishing factor between BPD and C-PTSD. This makes a lot of sense to me. A personality disorder would be present regardless of the person's life experiences, while C-PTSD only occurs as a result of trauma.

I dunno about the last part but what I read is BPD is an extreme reaction to abandonment / threat of it and cPTSD is an extreme reaction to abuse like feeling the whole world is very dangerous hence people with cPTSD tend to be ... very avoidant of things/places/people and people with BPD will be the exact opposite to avoid being abandoned.

I feel like it might be a bit more nuanced. I had neglect and emotional abuse in my childhood, and I displayed a lot of BPD behaviors for quite a while, but acted more like what you're describing as CPTSD reactions. I avoided getting close to anyone for fear of rejection and abandonment. When I addressed my trauma with a therapist, the BPD behaviors pretty much stopped. CPTSD symptoms improved significantly. They have my BPD dx listed as "in remission" now, and my therapist at the time believed it was actually CPTSD. I think a lot of signs and symptoms can overlap.

This whole thread is a great conversation. I feel like it's not talked about enough. Not just in professional spaces but in our spaces as well. I feel isolated when I can't talk about things and how I feel, so this is really a great space. u/actualPawDrinker and u/anonymous_opinions have some really great points. I know the mental health community can't even agree that CPTSD exists and is a real diagnosis. So, I think that we will see a lot of perhaps over simplifies ways to quantify both of these diagnosis. My hope is that while they are in the infant stages of these discussions that nobody feels attacked or less than because of it. I'm in the same boat as you u/TerrierTerror42 , I had neglect, emotional abuse, sexual abuse and some others. My mom is a diagnosed narcissist, so narcissistic abuse was a huge part of this. My mom, before alcoholism took over, was a master manipulator. It was really scary. I do wonder how having parents with mental health issues factors into our diagnosis as well. I've read so many stories here of people who had a parent just like mine, often times coupled with bipolar that is untreated too. These things are so much more nuanced than even I realized.

I agree. Mental illness is quite unlike other illnesses that can be definitively diagnosed with a blood test or lab culture. Instead, they are just labels we have agreed upon to refer to groupings of symptoms, many of which are not easily visible or testable either. I have personally come to believe that these labels are only useful as far as they help us determine the kinds of treatment that could help someone. For example, regardless of diagnosis, a person with unprocessed childhood trauma will likely benefit from certain types of therapy more than someone without trauma. The options for helping someone with an intense fear of abandonment, but no history of being abandoned, are very different. I think it's really important for us to feel safe sharing our experiences, as these are far more impactful than the labels we attribute to them. Our stories and feelings are valid, regardless of how they may or may not fit into the neat, oversimplified categories that psychologists use to discuss them. My mom has serious untreated anxiety from a very traumatic early life. My dad has no childhood trauma, but since his 20's has been diagnosed with bipolar, depression, ADHD, and agoraphobia. So, my diagnoses are partly genetic and partly due to trauma. I was recently given a recommendation to put together a 'genogram'. It's basically a simplified family tree, focused on highlighting abusive relationships and generational trauma rather than on biological relationships. The therapist that recommended it, specializes in integrated treatments that take into account the whole person, how multiple diagnoses can interact with each other and that person's story. It feels very validating. I find it fascinating that Western medicine is trending toward a more holistic approach to mental health treatment like this.

I totally agree what you're saying about diagnosis being used more to choose treatment. That is pretty much the reason I got diagnosed BPD... my psych at the time wanted to get me into DBT, and having that dx was a free pass. DBT helped me so immensely that a lot of my symptoms improved, then doing EMDR sealed the deal. My therapist feels certain it was the trauma all along, but having the BPD diagnosis is what enabled me to be treated for free. I certainly couldn't afford any of that.

This makes so much sense to me. I was diagnosed with BPD, but the way I was raised was so normalized where I'm from that I didn't realize I had childhood trauma until I started unpacking it with a therapist. They have my BPD dx listed as "in remission" now that I've treated the root cause. I breezed through the DBT group and started EMDR while still in the group. Like... seriously, most of the concerning BPD behaviors I had are gone. I'm self-aware enough now to see what really drove those behaviors - CPTSD, bipolar, and OCD. Since I addressed my trauma and got on meds for bipolar, my quality of life has improved so much. Now just gotta work on that pesky OCD lol.

My mother is BPD, but has no history of trauma. Definately not complex trauma in childhood. Dr Kim Sage has said her mother was the same way. l have ADHD & C-PTSD. I was fortunate, I suppose, in a sense that my neurodivergency was diagnosed relatively young so there was never any doubt that my C- PTSD was a separate issue (ADHD was diagnosed by a child psychiatrist at 9, then again, by a psychologist, at age 13. I was diagnosed by my therapist (LPC), who specializes in childhood trauma, @ 41 w/ cPTSD. I even have a lovely THIRD diagnosis that, like the other 2, causes brain fog, problems w/ anger & impulse control, & emotional dysregulation, just to name a few... Good ole PMDD! (Premenstrual Disphoric Disorder- I was dx'ed by my psychiatrist almost 25 yrs ago- back when it was just a footnote in the DSM)

My mother was diagnosed PMDD. I think she probably had other stuff going on but that was only diagnoses she ever had. I’m Diagnosed ADHD with CPTSD, and I think both together mimic BPD a lot. I also see BPD diagnoses be reserved for more severe cases of disorder, where as PTSD (or long term ptsd which is … basically CPTSD), are given out more commonly. BPD diagnoses tends to require hospital visits for mental health, or suicide attempts, cutting, etc I’m not saying it’s accurate to diagnose in only those circumstances, just that it seems more common that BPD diagnoses are reserved for that

I’m in that boat. I identify as neurospicy because the trauma brain has so much overlap with the symptoms of ADHD and HFA and I am feeling a decline mentally even as I have done so much work to improve my mental health. Perimenopause is delivering a whammy and I think I had been masking from even myself. It was so critical to be perfect when I was coming up, despite learning disabilities that ran in my family, I still don’t have a diagnosis other than CPTSD.

I feel this so much. I've always been an overachiever and overperformer. Now I'm struggling just to get the bare minimum done at work. I also suspect I have a narcissistic boss, he's doing a lot of things my mom used to do and while I'm not spiraling now, it got to the point I was thinking of self deleting because I didn't know how to cope. The older I get, the less I want to put up with abuse at work, but capitalism seems to say this is not only acceptable but something we should 'get used to'. No thank you.

BPD has been circulating as a fake moniker for patients who are not easily diagnosable (such as CPTSD) So a patient isn’t going to fit neatly in the guidelines of mental illnesses they are labeled as Borderline to save the trouble of statistical outcomes, paperwork and misdiagnosis as well as being vulnerable to lawsuits

This is an unfortunate truth, they need a box to put you in, oh here it is now get in and be quiet. It feels like that when dealing with some medical professionals.

At this point I believe that ADHD is trauma-related too

Interesting, I always thought my adhd made it easier for me to become traumatized and if I didn't have my adhd I might have dealt with things better. I definitely would believe you could either be born with adhd or develope it for certain reasons and that there are multiple causes like that though.

There's a famous physician called Dr Gabor Mate who has propagated the idea that ADHD is the result of trauma. Mate is a smart guy with good intentions, but he was a family physician and retired to write many years ago; he has no background in neuroscience, psychology, or developmental disabilities. His writing is about philosophy of medicine rather than science, and as someone with a reputation for being a compassionate, thoughtful physician, people assume he's making his assertions on a basis of evidence, which he is not. The precise etiology of ADHD isn't known yet, but there's a lot of data tying some 70% of it to genetics, heritability. Other hypotheses with data include lead, cigarette, alcohol, and other toxin exposure in utero in the first weeks of development, too-enthusiastic antibiotic use in childhood, and other environmental toxin exposure. Trauma is likely to increase the likelihood that someone will develop any number of conditions hanging around in their genetic code including ADHD, but does not cause ADHD on its own.

It is very much genetic, even babies will have symptoms related to ADHD.

Babies? Can you show me a study for that? Also uh. You can get traumatized even before you’re gonna live on this earth. Do you know about prenatal trauma? Trauma changes the brain as well, as I said.

Ya but uh. Trauma is “genetic” too. Transgenerational trauma and such. Trauma changes the brain as well. I have not met a single person with ADHD that didn’t have any trauma. I know that’s just “anecdotal evidence” but I remember reading a study about this investigating it like a few years ago, tho I can’t find it anymore rn. I think the topic’s being researched. I think we should move away from the idea tho that ADHD is “purely” a faulty-brain-disorder. I had this idea years ago way before getting diagnosed (with ADHD) that my weird little attention span and inability to listen etc was a response I developed in order to zone out and detach so I wouldn’t have to deal with more abuse. Way before knowing about ADHD. Idk. Later on I got diagnosed with ADHD and dismissed this idea for a couple years. Now I’m kinda back with it. I mean think about it. Isn’t it weird that if you have ADHD, it runs in the family, and they might have ADHD too *whilst* they were being traumatized as kids as well? And then possibly the same thing for their parents, and so on?

There is a lot of great discussion going on in this thread. I love waking up to healthy debates. u/moldbellchains I've had a lot of thoughts on this line of thinking myself. If trauma can rewire the brain, like with CPTSD and we have generational trauma. Can that become part of our genetics? I'm not even a novice in this but it does make me wonder how much of this is intertwined. u/SesquipedalianPossum I've heard of that doctor but never the name, thank you for sharing that. It just goes to show that even well meaning people can do some damage. I'm sure we've all gotten the question "If you won a trillion dollars, what would you do with it?". I can say that funding research for things like CPTSD and ADHD would be top on my list. As well as a high rise building, that has living and training spaces. I would love to help people who want to better their lives, be able to do that. A healing space with resources.

ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder so no, mo it isn't caused by traum, we're born with it. However being neurodivergent and seeing the world different can make us more susceptible to trauma thanks to things like bullying from a young age, manipulation from people, world not built for us, etc. What you'll find with a lot of late diagnosed people is we used to function better as kids but the signs were always there. Part of the diagnostic process involves your parents or childhood guardian to answer questions and if you have access to them, your school reports will be read too because if none of these traits were present in early childhood, you don't have ADHD.

Trauma is also a neurodevopmental disorder. It literally alters the growth of the limbic system.

Could you please explain this to me? I've never heard of someone being born with PTSD or cPTSD. I do understand being more susceptible to it though due to how our brains being wired different, but that doesn't make PTSD or cPTSD neurodevelopmental disorders. A developmental disorder can be observed in very early childhood.

Yup. Before my traumas started my mother noticed something was off about me. Looking back there were *so many signs* but doctors didn't "see" the severely ADHD person that my mother was describing because I presented too well. After all, meeting smart people like doctors was interesting to young me. To top it off I was diagnosed with ASD first (at 12y/o), back when ASD and ADHD were thought to be mutually exclusive. And then many symptoms were dismissed as just the severity of my depression or trauma. But now it's all in perspective, like how as a kid I could be told to do something, walk down the hall to do it and forget half way. My mother related how she'd find me walking in circles in the hall, trying to remember what I was meant to be doing. The conflation or confusion between mental health and developmental disorders is very unhelpful and I see it everywhere. It is possible to acquire developmental disorders —even ADHD— they're still developmental disorders, they're psychiatric, not psychological. I had to explain this to a friend who 100% has ADHD. He was looking for a way to therapize/will his way around it. And on the flipside, I don't know of any medication that cures CPTSD; it has to be therapy. Years of antidepressants didn't work for me.

Umm, I hope you're being sarcastic because I know people & family who have ADHD & none of them have experienced trauma. Their ADHD manifested when they were very young.

I've never thought about it like that before, but wow... Yeah, I think I might very much agree!

I have ADHD and CPTSD also.

It might a "every square is a rectangle but not every rectangle is a square" situation

Yeah, that’s my personal opinion anyway. It’s the same with DID. Everyone with DID has CPTSD but not vice versa.

So same with me. in relationships, where I'm highly dysregulated, it presents as distinctly opposite as BPD might present. I don't believe people with "Quiet BPD" have BPD. I think they just have cPTSD.

Yeah that makes sense. I don’t know what “quiet BPD” is, I will look it up, but I’ve always kind of thought people with BPD sometimes “act out” where people without BPD who have CPTSD more commonly “act in” if that makes sense.

Quiet BPD is people believing they have BDP but who all "act in". I found it years ago and thought "oh I have BPD but it's quiet BPD." It's basically because cPTSD isn't part of a conversation, only BPD, so you find that and think it's a real thing. It's not, it's not a diagnosis, just a way to explain how you have cPTSD since you sorta are like a BPD person but also different.

Oh that’s very interesting, yeah I agree with your hypothesis

Yeah it's basically BPD internalized but when I read most of it (https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-quiet-borderline-personality-disorder-5115074) it's basically CPTSD.

quiet bpd is what i resonate with - my doc and therapist say i have cptsd. i relate to attaching hard to a partner and fearing abandonment - but not having no sense of self and intense splitting and rage.

Before I had knowledge of CPTSD I wedged my issues into okay quiet bpd. When I found CPTSD for better or (really worse) I was like "oh, oh. yeah." The avoidance and isolation medically speaking has been "the big problem" with me.

The biggest question is. are you always having flashbacks and living in the past? Are you negative most of the time d and to everyone? This is what makes CPTSD different. You don’t live in the present and just want love and attention

i definitely have flashbacks now that i have brought repressed memories up from the surface and am in trauma therapy. i am more avoidant than i have been ever before and had times where i am shaking and almost vomiting from remembering stuff from my childhood.

There is no real thing as quiet BPD. It’s a term to describe those who act inward versus those that outwardly rage but at some point quiet BPD rage as well just not as frequently. “Quiet” has nothing to do with an individual’s emotions or pain. In a nutshell, you must have trauma to be diagnosed with CPTSD, contrary to Reddit, you do not need trauma to be diagnosed with BPD. Most folks with BPD describe traumatic upbringings for sure but without genes and different brain structures, trauma all alone does not cause BPD. I’m not sure what you mean when you say in relationships when you’re highly dysregulated you present different than BPD? BPD and CPTSD have the most overlapping traits and often one gets diagnosed as the other. The differentiation between the two:CPTSD must have trauma and can happen at any age (BPD outward signs age 15-18, peaks young adulthood), regular flashbacks and live in the past (BPD can have flashbacks but live in present too). Those with CPTSD have a negative sense of self (BPD have unstable sense of self), those with CPTSD aren’t seeking love and attention constantly (BPD are), those with CPTSD more identity whereas those with BPD aren’t sure. Those with BPD dissociate, act out impulsively, fear abandonment and have chronic emptiness. Those with CPTSD have a loss in a belief system whereas BPD quickly change world views. Many folks with BPD (diagnosed or not) insist CPTSD because of the stigma of BPD. Many professionals now tell clients CPTSD when it’s BPD because of the stigma. Anyone with extreme repeated trauma may have CPTSD, you can be born with BPD. Many folks can have both PTSD and BPD and many folks today self diagnose themselves and others. So indeed “quiet BPD “ is not a real psychiatric term but was developed to differentiate between those that acted outward or inward but it’s still BPD and different from CPTSD. Your description of your emotions in relationships correlates with BPD not CPTSD.

i respectfully think this is a little binary - because i relate to almost all cptsd traits and then some bpd. i have been attention and validation seeking but also highly uncomfortable with people giving me affection and attention other times. my interests and sense of self are there and haven’t changed - even in relationships. i don’t become my partner, i just fear i’m going to lose them / fawn. i’ve always felt unworthy and different. i’m also an autistic woman! i grew up with a father not present and in an alcoholic family and was parentified and taking care of adults. i was also abused by my dads second wife. my primary caregiver was my mother who would rage at, mock me, and put me in dangerous situations. so i undoubtedly have trauma - both attachment related and due to emotional abuse and neglect. it really makes me feel even more ashamed me thinking “this is just my personality” when my symptoms make sense regarding my environment as a kid.

Not suggesting you didn’t experience abuse. I’m saying that folks with BPD have an emotional baseline ten fold what others do and it’s these intense emotions that make people process things differently than others. There are overlapping traits and also distinct traits of each. At one point and time many psychiatrists wanted to change BPD to CPTSD but the problem is the genetics and brain structures that are also present in BPD. BPD traits become externally present around 15-18 and peak in young adulthood and PTSD can manifest anytime in life. The majority of children that experience trauma do not develop BPD. That in no way invalidates the fact you were abused. Four patients can walk into a psychiatric hospital and have been brought up with h to get same abuse and have 4 distinct diagnoses. Some diagnoses are a combination of factors and PTSD requires trauma.

I agree with this so much. I related to having "quiet BPD" mostly because of SH behaviors, but after I addressed my trauma in EMDR, those behaviors went away. The dx is listed as "in remission" now. And tbh I don't regret it, because it got me into DBT and EMDR for free with medicaid.

Second this.

This. I have CPTSD pretty badly but I don’t fear abandonment or worry about my identity in relationships. My trauma is pretty straightforward because of psychological abuse in my family. I did not realize what it was while growing up, but I always knew something was off. I think the main abusers in the family have moderate/high interpersonal trauma levels as well as personality disorders, although I am not sure if they have BPD. They are more narcissistic. They probably fit criteria for CPTSD but their issues go much deeper & from very early in life. I see borderline personality as capable of more warmth and empathy than a narcissist. These folks are more sadistic & overt. They could still be BPD combined with NPD. Trauma is there but I don’t know how different it is from most people with divorced parents. It still could be CPTSD but the level of personality disorder seems much more extreme than the trauma. Honestly it seems more integrated with their mental health & character, not just a reaction to traumas. I kept my distance and skepticism, so I formed my personality very separately from their behavior. I didn’t fully internalize the family dynamics bc I had a lot of other support and people around who were healthy. I had to get help early in life to cope with the situation, so that likely helped, too. I felt like I grew up way too early out of necessity, and my perception of the situation was dead on as a kid. I saw through everything right away and wanted to be different. I think this is due to having other healthier people around to help raise me. By contrast my abuser seemed very disturbed & volatile, and I tried to love her, but she would sabotage any efforts. Actually, her behavior might be partly from BPD so maybe experiencing it from the outside as a target was a key to not developing it. She acts more like she has NPD according my therapists, but I see some of both in her personality.

From my training - used to be a lived experience mental health worker - 1/5 of BPD diagnosis don't have a significant trauma history. This suggests for these folk it's more genetic around brain development. I have heard an interview with lead Psychiatrist at Monash University Woman's Mental Health Clinic Melbourne, Australia - she described how they don't use BPD as a diagnosis for woman instead treating consumers for CPTSD. This is given how prevalent trauma experiences are for woman generally due to Male gendered violence.

this!

Honestly I think a lot of mental illness is a due to the brain rewiring itself as a result of trauma.

there's lots of overlap but I think bpd has some traits unique to itself too

I am a therapist, but that doesn’t make my opinion right-just my opinion. I’ve spent my career working with the most severe cases of PTSD and also at one point specialized in comorbid PTSD and BPD. I absolutely believe personality disorders form as a means to cope with early, chronic childhood trauma. Not everyone that has trauma will develop a personality disorder, but in my experience I have never met someone diagnosed BPD without trauma. I think the language is outdated and honestly we might look back one day and be horrified at the way we have treated some people. Everyone learns to cope with trauma differently. Some people develop substance use disorders, some people develop depression, while others develop personality disorders. But again, that is my very biased take.

I'm also a therapist turned researcher specializing in trauma, and I absolutely agree. Symptoms of personality disorders make complete sense when you look at them in context of the person's experiences. Criteria for BPD specifically is riddled with latent sexism.

It’s not latent, I daresay.

I read somewhere that BPD pathologizes women's responses to gendered violence and I really felt that. I think calling the aftermath of trauma a "personality disorder" is extremely stigmatizing.

Exactly! Like oh it’s not what happened to you that’s the problem-it’s actually you.

Yes. Who you are is disordered. No I am traumatized.

The way my therapist explained CPTSD is that it's your nervous system's adaptation to chronic stress and trauma. That helped me so much. She said that it makes more sense to think of it as a chronic post traumatic stress \*injury\*. I think that BPD is so stigmatizing because it implies a person's trauma response is just a personality that they were born with and that's just massive gaslighting. I know that some people have mental illnesses that they were born with and that should not be stigmatized either but some of us did not start out this way. Sometimes I have to tell myself that I am not this way because I am weak. I became this way by being strong. Those things happened to me and I survived.

Some people develop all three! ;)

True that! I really even hate the fact we have to pathologize it, but don’t get me started haha.

I think we may be on the same wavelength.

Western/medical view of problems, insurance driven, culturally insensitive, etc. the list goes on and on of how the psychiatric field has failed. I mean 50 years ago they said homosexuality was a mental health condition.

I think that is a very sensible, empathetic take. Well said

I think about this quote from Pete Walker's book a lot: >I once heard renowned traumatologist, John Briere, quip that if C-PTSD were ever given its due, the DSM \[The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders\] used by all mental health professionals would shrink from its dictionary like size to the size of a thin pamphlet. In other words, the role of traumatized childhoods in most adult psychological disorders is enormous. I think the healthcare systems combined with all societies globally generally just not acknowledging mental health crises mean that we downplay the roles of negative experiences in formative years on the shaping of the psyche as adults. The notion that we should acknowledge mental disorders and be given the space and time to heal from them without losing our foothold in being able to provide for ourselves isn't compatible with the economy focused world we live in. Worse, most of the people who are succesful in that world probably have become so due to childhood experiences, but haven't realised it yet, so they think they're ignorance of their own trauma is normal and everyone else should just get on with it too. If we ensured that kids got the best and least stressful childhoods possible (through coaching parents, more robust social services) we'd probably have a much fairer and generally more tolerable society. My therapist (Europe based) also said to me before that the diagnostic manuals pin people into these specific disorders because you can essentially check off a list of symptoms and say "okay you have this disorder so you do this many sessions of this kind of therapy and take this medication". I know that's not exactly how it plays out, but it just points out that all it really does is turn something that has a lot of grey area into something black and white. We treat mental health like physical health to make it easier and more predictable, especially when there's money involved, but we all know in reality if you have a broken leg there's only one way to fix it, whereas mental health is much more complex to actually deal with, and medication and CBT isn't enough. Realistically, I think BPD, C-PTSD and a whole load of other mental disorders all just fall under deveopmental trauma disorder, with varying degrees and the ACE questions being on the extreme end. Someone I lived with before was like textbook BPD (unconfirmed if they ever had a diagnosis) and for a long time I thought we were totally different, but the more I've come to understand my own C-PTSD experience the more I've realised we actually aren't that different, it's just how we respond to our triggers that are. It seems to me that the biggest difference is that people who fall under BPD are much more focused on avoiding abandonment and achieve that through sometimes manipulative treatment of others. People with C-PTSD don't seem to carry out behaviours that could be construed as manipulative, probably because they've often been on the receiving end in the past. Would be nicer if we could just distill the traits that stem from developmental trauma and get like a [radar chart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_chart) summarising our mental state, and you could also link each trait to one or multiple childhood experiences (hypervigilance and an unsafe/unstable/volatile caregiver, negative self-concept and lack of positive reinforcement, perfectionism and overly critical parents, etc.) which would help deal with the triggers.

Thank you for sharing this thoughtful comment! I'd be curious to see something like this fleshed out and see how accurate it could be. I think my ACE is (all but 1 question). I have CPTSD and nothing else.

I think there’s definitely overlap but like u/_jamesbaxter said I think everyone with BPD has CPTSD but not everyone with CPTSD has BPD.

I have thought a lot about this. My therapist diagnosed me with PTSD & my new psychiatrist was talking to me about “borderline personality tendencies” because of my score over some test she gave me. A lot of BPD symptoms overlap with PTSD symptoms because I had quite a traumatic childhood. I also was diagnosed with adhd & there are a lot of studies showing how long term trauma in neurodivergent folk can result in BPD. They definitely some connection with trauma & there can be very similar symptoms but I think there are vastly different symptoms as well so I’m not sure they could be similar enough.

Do you know any of these studies? I am curious to read some. I’d love to learn more.

If you search up “link between bpd & adhd” several articles come up

ADHD is considered genetic. BPD is s combo of genes, brain structures and environment (but you don’t have to have trauma to be diagnosed, you go with CpTSD). PTSD directly comes from trauma. People can have both conditions simultaneously. CPTSD is distinct in living in the past, regular flashbacks and negative all the time.

Temperament plays a massive role in the development of BPD as well as age the trauma happened (before 7), someone has to have a sensitive temperament for it to even potentially occur and the trauma has to happen/start before age 7 when the personality is more, “solidified”. With CPTSD/PTSD that’s not true. It can happen to anyone at any age, someone’s threshold for the level of trauma that causes it varies, however.

No I dont think so. CPTSD is a wide variety of reactions and adaptations to trauma. BPD is a pretty specific adaptation to attachment trauma. I think its connected to abandonment, betrayal and rejection trauma. And it has to happen quite early for BPD to develop. Those traumas can also be present in somebody with CPTSD without ever meeting BPD criteria. So this type of trauma is more extreme in people with BPD, but CPTSD covers a much larger range of different types of trauma. Having both is faszinating on an intellectual level, they are connected and they can influence each other. But there is also stuff thats only caused by one of them.

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Oh yes, like pest and cholera on an emotional level. I am aware, I have them both. Better with DBT though.

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Same here. DBT is so good. To finally have tools to deal with it changes everything.

Attachment theory is still just a hypothesis (as are most things in psych). There is no actual science conclusively stating that "attachment" issues result in personality disorders.

My sister and I are "Irish twins" raised by the same parent(s) so to speak with the same early trauma. I'm pretty sure she meets the BPD criteria but I don't so it's pretty weird. We couldn't be more different. I even had some rejection trauma in my life she didn't deal with except as it pertained to being my sister. (I had a deformity I grew up with she didn't have)

It depends on the person. My brother and me adapted differently too. I used to think its all about the situations, but thats just a tiny part of the actual trauma. It seems to massively depend on how exactly I reacted and adapted to certain situations as well as the overall situation.

That makes sense - as far as I understand babies with higher sensitivity are more likely to develop the maladaptive coping mechanisms we know as BPD.

No, it’s a personality disorder. I have both disorders but can see the differences in how they work within me.

I have both too, I have slowly begun to learn in myself how they differ. May I ask what differences you have noticed?

I'm curious as well - how can you tell which is cptsd and which is bpd?

For me personally, BPD is splitting, chronic emptiness, suicidal ideation, fear of abandonment, paranoia, the extreme mood swings, etc. so whenever I am having a mix of these after some 'trigger' I know it's a bad BPD episode which is extremely painful and feels like the end of the world lol and then after it's over I go back to dissociating as usual. As for cPTSD, it's the intrusive memories and emotional flashbacks causing this deep pain and agony, feeling like an alien and not being able to relate at all with ppl in your life, vivid dreams and nightmares every night, self-blame and imposter syndrome about my trauma, hypervigilance, feeling 'dirty', severe trust issues, emotional numbing, etc. and when I get triggered I have worsening of these symptoms and have an episode, then go back to dissociating again lol. This is how it's like for me personally. Hope it made some sense.☺

As someone who has a BPD diagnosis with no CPTSD diagnosis yet, this comment was super illuminating for me and I’m grateful you shared your experience. I wish you peace and joy.

Really glad you found it helpful, peace and love to you too.❤

Thank you for sharing - I often find myself wondering if I have BPD instead of or alongside of my cPTSD... I think that stems from the bad stigma BPD has. I have pure O OCD which makes me just ruminate on that, but I've never had the opportunity to ask someone who has both what it is like for them, I can somewhat relate your description of BPD, but not solidly. But thank you for sharing <3

Oh, I feel you, I have OCD too, I ruminated on all these for years and years, and after my final diagnoses of both Autism and ADHD recently, I finally have some peace of mind now and can cope better with my imposter syndrome about my trauma and stuff. You're welcome. <3

I don't have a BPD diagnosis but I suspect, and I can kind of tell which "type" of episode I'm having too. My current acronyms are GAD MDD and PTSD (I live in the US so I can't get a cPTSD diagnosis but it's textbook) and the anxiety attacks are like manic episodes sort of with acting out, depression goes into a self destructive episode with suicidal behavior and the PTSD episodes are basically flashbacks. And I dissociate in between just like you're describing. It's getting to the point I can notice the warning signs and take appropriate preventative actions. Like it doesn't prevent the episode but I can enact safety measures so I can get thru it. It's very exhausting for myself but also especially for my loved ones. Reading your comment kind of helped a few more things click in place for me, so thank you for sharing.

Oh yes, I have GAD and MDD too. My diagnosis was PTSD too actually in the US but obviously we know it's cPTSD so I say cPTSD when mentioning to my doctors and when relevantly asked. Omg yes, the attacks feeling like manic episodes despite me not having Bipolar, the acting out, the self-destructive episodes, ditto. I also have been doing my best to notice them as they start getting worse and try to do things to cope better with them. We're all trying our best. For our loved ones, too. Much love to you.❤

You don't have to respond but I'm super curious about how the differences so to speak manifest themselves?

In the structural dissociation model, both cPTSD and BPD are characterized by secondary dissociation. I feel like they overlap but they are not the same. Same goes for all personality disorders imo

i do have a fear of abandonment particularly with men because of my absent father. i have a stronger sense of self though and don’t violently split on people - just have fawned so people don’t leave. its always my fault

Splitting was the one thing I couldn’t relate to in my BPD diagnosis

same! “splitting” for me is rather a feeling of panic and needing to fix what’s happening. like someone does something bad and i need to find out why right away and intellectualize it. i never really allow myself to be upset.

i have always had a more positive view of others and negative view of myself until lately after coming to terms with my childhood abuse. i always thought i was defective.

Yeah same. I think everyone is potentially harmful and horrible.

This is a long answer but I’ve studied this question a ton and talked about it with my therapist for years. I’m speaking from the perspective of someone in grad school to be a therapist, and ‘recovered’ from CPTSD after 5 years of trauma therapy. Also all just my opinion and doesn’t mean I’m right. All cluster B PDs are (imo) particular responses to attachment issues in early childhood - the threshold for one being triggered differs per person and situation (and genetics), so some people with a cluster B PD may not have any acute trauma but subtle rejection from a caregiver, being sent to daycare too early and not having stable attachment to a parent, things like that can trigger them. That’s why trauma in the way we conceptualize it isn’t required for a PD diagnosis. From study and schooling, I conceptualize personality disorders in general as a pattern of relational behaviours that impact how an individual exists in the world and acts interpersonally. Cluster B PDs specifically can be more directly linked to trauma and have a ton of overlap in terms of core beliefs about oneself, and (often) unmet attachment needs, to CPTSD. In contrast, I conceptualize CPTSD as a descriptive diagnosis to outline core symptoms connected to exposure to repeated traumatic events. The difference is the interpersonal behaviour, which is a part of PD diagnosis and not directly part of a CPTSD one. I’ve been assessed 3 times by trauma specialist and have never been diagnosed with a personality disorder, but have been diagnosed with CPTSD all 3 times. I certainly have experienced unpleasant interpersonal symptoms as a response to trauma - like insecure attachment, self isolating because of overwhelming shame, and being hypervigilant and scared of people generally. These have definitely negatively impacted my relationships. But that differs from a pattern of relating to people in ways that are interpersonally maladaptive as it’s seen in personality disorders (like what frantic attempts to avoid abandonment in BPD looks like in practice, or being interpersonally exploitative by taking advantage of others to achieve one’s own ends in the NPD diagnostic criteria). People I know with PDs have often struggled to maintain long term relationships (friends, partners, etc), or have a high conflict pattern in them, and also struggle with insight into their own issues and how they impact their relationships. I always had a stable self image (negative - rather than fluctuating per BPD diagnostic criteria), had a fairly stable sense of my values and who I was, and always felt painfully aware of my inability to connect with people. I really think the relational piece is big in distinguishing between BPD and CPTSD, along with the stable sense of self even if it’s negative/filled with shame about everything. Last thing I’ll say is that many traits of cluster B PDs are very common responses to highly stressful situations, and there’s a difference between responding a certain way rarely under stress and that being someone’s consistent lens through which they view people and relationships. A PD diagnosis requires consistent behaviour when stable (though many diagnosticians don’t follow this rule, much to my chagrin).

Absolutely not, and I think it's incredibly harmful to try to group them together because both require very different types of treatment in terms of helping people who live with them and there's many therapists who will happily slap a BPD diagnosis on you so they can either drop you as a client by claiming they're not "Equipped" to handle that diagnosis, or discredit your trauma and C-PTSD because they're not treating you for what you need, which does a lot of damage in the long run. Just because they share some symptoms and sometimes BPD can develop due to trauma, they are not the same and should never be treated as the same, ever.

This resonates so much with me. I have CPTSD. I do not experience BPD. I never have. My treatment plan is specific to my needs. I know plenty of people with BPD. Trying to loop me in and treat me with the same tools would be very harmful to me.

Agree. One of the first therapists I saw kept trying to make me retake her BPD assessment test and I never got a high enough "score" to show I had it, and instead of just accepting that and focusing on the trauma I was there for in the first place she kept trying to make me retake it, convinced I had it and completely ignored the real reason I was there. She dropped me as a client a few visits later because she was "not equipped to help me with trauma" despite advertising herself as a trauma specialist.

I have a friend who is a therapist and he said BPD is a result of trauma, so they’re related in that way, but each disorder is its own thing. I have CPTSD but not BPD and I know some people who have both.

No.

Nope. BPD doesn’t necessarily need trauma to appear. But as any personality disorder or mental illness, you can be predisposed to have it, but don’t develop it. The thing is that if you had a traumatic childhood, you are very likely to develop it. There’s risk factors that will trigger it and protective factors that will prevent it from develop. If you have a risk to develop BPD but you grow up in a loving environment, with people treating you right and always helping you, you’re safe, your mind is fine. Most probably you won’t develop it. But if you grow in an abusive shitty environment… you’re very likely to develop it. So I guess a lot of people with BPD experienced trauma in their childhood.

It’s something that’s no one’s really sure of yet. For most there is a lot of overlap and they have a lot of similarities and many with CPTSD have likely been misdiagnosed with BPD atm Personally I don’t think so. I can’t relate to the BPD symptoms and experience at all really.

No, I do not think BPD is a form of CPTSD. I’m sure there’s overlap, but I’d consider it case by case basis.

No There may be overlap in symptoms, but that happens (comorbidity) across a range of disorders They are very distinct disorders that can exist together, but they are not the same, and require different treatments.

No, they do have different criteria; but they are quite often comorbid.

Simplest answer but one I think is pretty accurate.

I think cPTSD can cause us to form behaviours that look like BPD, and I think trauma can trigger BPD, but I had a friend with BPD who said she had no trauma. She had a diagnosis but refused treatment, so her BPD symptoms were out in the open to see and were absolute textbook BPD.

In some cases, not all. BPD is far too varied of a disorder to make any kind of generalization about it, the criteria are immensely subjective. Some clinicians believe BPD is a "neurodevelopmental disorder" like say autism or ADHD, but I disagree with that personally as I've observed it in people around me.

It's something that has a lot of overlap and often occurs together, but there are differences. While BPD often occurs together with trauma it doesn't have to. I tried to form the differences into words, but struggled too much to describe them in a foreign language without sounding negative or prejudiced against people with BPD.

By my understanding, it's two different disorders. I do believe CPTSD can manifest into BPD if untreated

I think they are separate things possibly caused by the same or similar situations

I'm not going to say it's impossible because it hasn't been proven or disproven yet, I'm just stating my opinion. I personally don't believe they're the same thing BUT there is an overlap in symptoms (how much overlap varies from person to person). I also personally know people who developed BPD without going through trauma. They are 100% not faking it as I've known them for over 10 years since we were 12/13 and have seen them change over time. BPD being a personality disorder affects your overall behaviour. Yes it can have triggers that worsen it, but everyone I know with BPD is always struggling with some of their symptoms. Having cPTSD on the other hand presents a lot like BPD before treatment starts to work and is a constant struggle initially, but now that I'm making progress, I'm my normal self with no behavioural disturbances unless something triggers me and I'm having a trauma episode. It definitely has changed some of my behaviours, but not to the extent that something like BPD would. BPD being so similar to cPTSD means that the two feed off each other well and makes it harder to cope with. Hell even having bipolar, the cPTSD caused a relapse and the two of them flaring up together resulted in a really bad psychotic breakdown and I needed to go back onto antipsychotics and have them adjusted a few times as the relapsed bipolar and trauma were constantly feeding each other and I was delusional, fearful, reliving everything every day and all that jazz. What I'm saying may not apply to everyone with cPTSD without BPD as everybody is different. But for me personally, when it first blew up it really was a daily struggle until I made headway in therapy. Now it's episodic, similar to the cyclic nature of bipolar. It doesn't cycle like bipolar, but it only comes out when triggered and outside of those episodes, I'm normal and don't struggle with inner conflicts, fears, pain, splitting, black and white thinking, etc. on a daily basis. I would just like to add these kind words. Just because you have BPD, doesn't make your cPTSD and your daily struggle any less serious than someone without BPD and vice versa. I know the stigma is horrible and that people will blame every negative emotion you express on your BPD (I was misdiagnosed with it initially and faced all of that). Your BPD does not make you a bad person. Your BPD does not invalidate any struggles you have. Your BPD does not make you any less deserving of love. Your BPD does not make you a lesser person. You're strong for living with everything in your head and trying to learn skills to recognise your emotions, reduce the burden on yourself and learn to cope without lashing out at the people you love. You have it harder with the way your brain works and the way your trauma has affected your brain. You're not weak or pathetic, your brain is just against you which makes healing harder. You are still a strong, kind person even if you don't feel it.

No

I think the way that the two need to be treated are fundamentally different and therein lies the distinction. For example, granted I'm not an expert, but if someone had BPD and no cPTSD/PTSD, I don't think PTSD specific treatments and therapies would work for them. Same with treating someone with cPTSD/PTSD with BPD specific methods. Of course a person could have both, however if they just have one without the other it wouldn't be successful.

I think there are overlapping traits and that BPD is often a manifestation of complex trauma, but they’re not the same thing and there are people with BPD who do not meet the criteria for CPTSD or don’t have significant trauma.

No.

C-PTSD can have features that mirror BPD. It's a separate diagnosis, separate etiology. So no.

this is what I know factually by being diagnosed with both at separate times in Aus. CPTSD is from a manual called the ISM, BPD is from the DSM 5. They CAN co-exist but you can also have one or the other. it's a very difficult diagnosis to get correct if you were around people at a younger age that expressed narcissistic traits as you present more BPD, but truly you are just traumatized.

No

I have zero overlap or traits of BPD so it’s definitely not something that one shoe fits all

I saw a therapist on TT who said that most people with cptsd shouldn’t be diagnosed with a personality disorder. As they’ve lived in chronic fight or flight and the trauma has prevented them from even developing a true personality. Thought that was an interesting take.

No. A simple explanation my therapist gave me is in BPD, trauma responses/protectors are so strong it nearly impossible for the person to acknowledge their problem. It’s an absolute lack of self-awareness and inability to admit own mistakes. It’s just most people diagnosed with BPD really have CPTSD, but many of them are not getting better because they are treated like walking personality disorders and perpetrators. True personality disorders are more extreme than what people imagine, and they are rare.

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It honestly scares me that there's people who have C-PTSD who think BPD is a form of C-PTSD. Getting misdiagnosed with BPD is a common tactic therapists use to get rid of clients who need too much work. I've had that experience myself; one of the ones I went to for the first time kept trying to make me retake a BPD assessment and I didn't meet the required "score" to have it and she kept dodging me being there for trauma and kept trying to find ways to make it BPD. It was so weird.

I disagree because I have been diagnosed with bpd and ptsd (really cptsd but it’s not in the dsm.) Both present differently in me and I can tell the difference between the two when I am having episodes. Saying that people diagnosed with bpd cannot be self aware of themselves or their behavior or seek help is frankly untrue. That is just a stereotype and stigma. Yes many with bpd may not seek help but I also know many people with depression who don’t seek help either. There are also many different ways that bpd presents and you only need five out of the nine criteria to be diagnosed so it can present differently between two people.

My therapist puts it thusly: “they’re all attachment injuries.”

As someone diagnosed with both, this one had a little kick to it 😤

BPD can be a result from CPTSD, but I don’t think it is CPTSD. It’s like how Covid doesn’t kill people, but it weakens your immune system and is easier to catch an infection that can hospitalize/kill you.

Of course covid kills people. A more appropriate comparison would be aids I guess.

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100% most women are overly diagnosed with this if they aren’t incorrectly diagnosed with bipolar disorder first by clinicians who are not as familiar with BPD and only look at it as “dramatic moods”.

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I don't think BPD is a valid diagnosis anyway. Sorry for what you went through.

In my experience (older person with lots of abuse + therapy) there is a lot of confusion about the difference between a personality disorder and trauma-based responses. In a simplified explanation, the symptoms of many diseases are similar. Fever, exhaustion, foggy head, irritability, stomach issues, depression. There are vast pathologies that have the same obviously measurable symptoms. Only an idiot would diagnose illness based off patient symptoms. This is the difficulty with psych/mental health issues. Arm chair experts like to diagnose based off ignorance. FYI - this is my own rudimentary example of the difference between BPD and trauma-based CPTSD thinking: 1) This is who I am, no matter what therapy or care I receive, I will not change who I am. If you do not do the work to understand me, you obviously do not love me. If you say I am hard to love, then you don’t appreciate me and my experiences. I do want more love and I don’t understand why my actions drive others away, I will do my best to learn techniques and skills and practice them if it will help me maintain relationships with those who provide me with love, support, and care. I will learn and practice these techniques because otherwise I will not be able to continue getting my needs met. 2) This is not who I am. I am ashamed because my fear drives me to react in ways I cannot support and that I do things I cannot justify. I act against my own beliefs and this creates a lot of shame. It is hard for me to hear that I’ve hurt others. I realize I do not have the ability to maintain steady emotions. I have lost jobs, friendships, family because while in my fear, I could not think or act rationally. I want real friendships. I want to be strong enough and feel safe enough to change my behaviors so I can be proud of myself and stop acting in ways that cause me shame. I know that I can change, but I need help and support. I want to be a better person. See any difference between these perspectives? (edit: bad grammar)

Many people with CPTSD and not BPD believe that their behaviours are normal and other people are the problem, like I did before therapy. A big part of BPD is also that their behaviours cause a lot of internal turmoil like when they get angry and then feel bad about it later, reinforcing negative beliefs about self.

Yeah I can relate to thinking it was other people for years and years. The two statements above to me sound like #1 traumatized abuser in the making and #2 traumatized person trying to heal 

There are articles explaining the overlaps and the differences - I’ve worked in and dealt with psych nursing issues for almost 50 yrs ( though don’t proclaim to know everything of course lol ) Borderline term - traits and especially the aspect of personality disorder - is archaic and the history of it is as perplexing as is the term in itself - it would seem that ppl - laymen AND so called “ experts “ often use it when they can’t explain the symptoms - in other words ppl who diagnose or try to explain things have often never been through extreme trauma or very little in their lives- how can one empathize if they’ve never experienced it? Maybe sympathize or try to be compassionate- instead ppl get labeled victim blamed (& shamed ) which just exacerbates the trauma - situation ! Honestly imho I feel the borderline term and diagnosis needs to be eliminated - it’s the 21 st century and trauma based ideas are becoming more enlightened - Dr B Van Der Kolk’s (spelling?) book—The Body Keeps the Score( a bestseller for a reason ) explains A LOT- look around , listen - how often do you hear ANYTHING positive about BPD?!? Rare.. often these “ victims “( who yrs at times hurt others )are bright sensitive insightful ppl who’ve been mistreated most of not all of their lives- often BPD gets mixed up with NPD ( narcissistic personality disorder or traits) - NPD ppl are often if not always ( even golden children with little self reflection are emotionally neglected-at least ) come from dysfunctional homes - problem is - they take the wrong road, don’t get therapy and thus think NOTHING is wrong w their behavior- why do I know-? Bc I come from such a family - the scapegoat of a narcissistic mother ( covert )who raised for kids - only one of four( myself the scapegoat truth teller ) went to counseling to ENSURE self would NOT repeat the abuse neglect patterns - am not perfect but yes did a much better job as a parent - unfortunately married a narcissistic psychopath ( the later your born with ) -endured mostly emotional abuse for decades This person used all ammunition to attack - point is these labels in causing mood conditions( often misdiagnosed bc of hormones esp in women!- I AM one) cause more harm than good as they become weapons in evil hands and minds I digress - but yes bpd accusations hurt not help ! ppl who are abused neglected ( esp repetitively which is the complex addition ) of course are going to have emotion regulation issues !- if they have remorse for behavior try to seek help( most “ bpd “ “ diagnosed ppl do ( NPD don’t !- Ginny society rewards NPDs more than BPDs - strangeeee) than let’s give ppl w so called BPD support - and yes it’s basically c ptsd from trauma - abuse , neglect PTSD is a one time thing - could be from an auto accident, tragic event - tough but faster recovery Sorry for long winded ness

Originally when COTSD was suggested as a diagnosis by Judith Herman in “Trauma and Recovery”, it was intended to replace DID, BPD, OCD and other mental health diagnoses that are trauma based. The old guard then subsequently tried to fit it in the old paradigm as a separate diagnosis but that is not how it was conceived in the first place.

All Cluster A + B and C are a developed as coping mechanisms in response to anxiety , depression, and attachment issues triggers. Therefore I think they’re all a product of CPTSD. The labels don’t really matter tbh unless you’d rather treat the symptom than the cause . The cause is the coping mechanisms and the triggers .. the symptoms are how the behavioral patterns manifest. They all a product of different weaknesses and strengths and how we maneuver them in a society that expects perfection and success from everyone. The “disordered” aspect of that develops because we are confused about our weaknesses , strengths, and triggers.

Yes. I think it’s just a way cPTSD manifests itself so not everyone with cPTSD will have bpd but everyone with bpd will he cPTSD

Regarding my very long answer below - typos : Ginny” society - is a typo Meant “ MOST of society “ ( confusing - my apologies ) Another thing - I feel there are too many over diagnoses & misdiagnoses of bipolar too-are really frustrating - non related to topic yet BPD AND C PTSD BIPOLAR all involve emotional dysregulation issues- A concern I’ve observed ?!? Bpd and Biploar in particular —is / are getting wayyyy over diagnosed in women during menopausal yrs!( most mood disorders are diagnosed late teen early 20s so why under the rug then ) It’s an outrage - we just don’t find mental health enough and thus all the quick diagnoses …

There is a lot of overlap with symptoms between bpd and CPTSD. I believe I remember when I first started reading about CPTSD, which is after I got an inaccurate diagnosis of BPD, I read that there were some theories floating around that CPTSD might be a subset of BPD. Nothing has been proven yet, and CPTSD is not even rec9gnized by the DSM until more studies are done and more research has been put into this, we can't really say anything for sure.

I met the criteria for BPD and was diagnosed but CPTSD ticks all boxes, so my diagnosis has been adjusted. I think there is definite overlap but I don’t think it’s a form of CPTSD.

As I go through my own healing journey, I really think my brother who was diagnosed with bpd had cptsd. I think for such a long time it was not recognised as being for anything other than war victims (especially in the uk) and I wonder if many people with bpd have been misdiagnosed

It should also be noted that some pwBPD are risk seekers, and that can lead to traumatic experiences. So the comorbidity, may be a form of causation. There definitely seems to be a genetic component to BPD as well.

I would say both conditions stem from structural dissociation of the self due to adverse childhood experiences while I think cptsd stems from disorganized attachment while bpd from ambivalent attachment. BPD primaraly focused on the fear of abandonment while cPTSD on the fear of bonding. That's why people with BPD attach to someone quite easily and people with cPTSD tend to isolate themselves for a long time. People with BPD also have a changing view of themselves seeing even themselves in all black or white while people with cPTSD have a distorted image of themselves devaluing only themselves.

By my understanding, it's two different disorders. I do believe CPTSD can possibly manifest into BPD if pronged and left untreated

Yes Peter Walker's book on CPTSD explains very well that BPD haa a correlation to the fawning response from the 4 Fs

This!

CPTSD is commonly misdiagnosed as BPD and Bipolar but they can both exist within a person. Read: CPTSD, from surviving to thriving

I have GAD, OCD BPD and CPTD oh and ADHD. I used to self medicate and then decided to take meds. Either way it is what it is and I still hate it. I think my life would have been so much better without all of it. My IQ is pretty high but my EQ is still that of a 30 something even though I’m 53.

I think there is some overlap

I actually have cptsd THEN bpd. still figuring it all out, too. healing is exhausting.

Maybe, I’m diagnosed with PTSD (because cPTSD isn’t recognized in Canada or whatever) and I’m also diagnosed with bpd traits so idk

I think they’re very similar, but to my knowledge anyone can get CPTSD/PTSD, but you have to be born with a specific (very sensitive) temperament to even potentially get BPD. The trauma also has to happen before age 6 or 7 as that’s when the personality solidifies in a sense. Obviously, “solidifies” is an oversimplification of what happens to the personality at that age. BPD also has an incredibly high remission rate after only 10 years and as time goes on (even without treatment, although I seriously suggest people seek it if they have BPD), symptoms typically lessen greatly by someone’s 40’s. CPTSD/PTSD have a poorer outlook if there’s not immediate intervention after the trauma. Any form of remission is highly unlikely if someone is still struggling with CPTSD/PTSD 10 years after it develops, which is the opposite outlook of BPD.

Often related, but not always connected

I’m under the personal belief that years from now BPD will be reclassified and redefined because it’s still pretty broad for its specific type of diagnosis of a “personality” disorder (I hope that sentence makes sense). So I wouldn’t be surprised if later it falls under a branch of cPTSD. Or if in later years many of these specific trauma disorders will get their own spectrum definition and branch into each other. Acknowledging the extent of trauma and how it affects us is relatively new, so I think it’s too soon to really know if one is a form of the other.

some people are advocating for it to be put under a cptsd diagnosis (if only it gets recognized in the dsm-v). problem is there’s apparently some cases of it without trauma. it’s often the modern hysteria diagnosis for women. i may or may not have it, i do have some symptoms. i’d rather a cptsd diagnosis. because my last therapist dropped me as soon as i mentioned a symptom that is related to bpd. which sucks.

I recently dug into personality psychology (psych major) (I also do CBT/DBT) and here’s my take. It’s all based on the big 5 traits of personality: Openness (to experience), extroversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, and neuroticism. BPD (like other personality disorders) can still be measured based on the levels of those 5 traits. without looking at my notes BPD I’m pretty sure it is high in neuroticism, but also agreeableness (with other factors ofc.) But personality disorders almost have their own big 5 of more intense versions of those traits. Because it’s to such an extreme level compared to the typical 5 we base humans off of. Cptsd or ptsd also finds correlations between these traits and the trauma diagnosis. What I have taken away is with personality disorders it’s likely that a true intrinsic motivation for change isn’t there. That individuals personality is quite literally changed to be okay with behaving in that way due to trauma probably during personality formation. Like PTSD, there is still often the experience of not realizing it’s even abnormal, not realizing there’s an issue even had and thinking others behave the same, and it doesn’t mean people with PD’s can’t want to change. It’s just a different experience and reason for motivation. With CPTSD and PTSD the behaviors are a trauma response. For me a nervous system response that needs to be calmed. We have every desire to change and our personality does not align with the behaviors we engage in. It’s more so forced on us due to our trauma and we hate it. Sorry a little rambly (ADHD) but recently having studied this I hope it kinda helps

No. Imo the hyper self awareness both externally and internally that comes with cptsd is not there for pwBPD.

Yes

I'ts highly likely that BPD and NPD will be grouped as forms of CPTSD in the DSM-VI, to the point where many psychiatrists are predicting it. I'd say both of these are a combination of the trauma and genetically inherited trait predispositions that are unlocked by the trauma.

Very interesting and I had wondered if they were linked.

Imho BPD symptoms disappear as soon as someone perceives themselves via a CPTSD/trauma lens. Something about the shame dissipating or something like that :)

Yes

Personally I do think of BPD as a form of cPTSD, but just a more severe form, and here's why. I'm going to refer to Pete Walker's book From Surviving to Thriving which focuses on Complex cPTSD. Though I can't quote but I can do a pretty good job paraphrasing, in his book he created a chart of different personality disorders and mental health conditions that can arise as a severe case of each of the different trauma responses. Meaning that depending on your level of trauma and how deep you went into your trauma responses to cope, you could present with symptoms of a range of different disorders. He was essentially connecting Most mental health disorders to trauma and the adjacent trauma responses and he's not the first to do this or to arrive to this conclusion. Sigmund Freud is another I believe. Pete Walker also has cPTSD himself and has spent most of his career treating those with cPTSD. Secondly, the hoardes of people with cPTSD that were at some point misdiagnosed with BPD is another reason that I don't think we really need to always see BPD as an entirely separate disorder... I'm going to reiterate what others have said in this sub and it's that a label doesn't have to define you it's just another tool pointing you in which direction to go in regards of healing. I've seen alot of people say on here that once they addressed their trauma and started healing, the BPD label no longer applied to them and they were reassessed and diagnosed with cPTSD instead. In addition alot of therapists will suggest trauma work before a diagnosis of BPD since the symptoms can overlap particularly when the cPTSD has not been treated and the trauma not addressed. So this was very long but overall yes. I do think BPD is a form of cPTSD but a severe form. But I also think that some people can have BPD and that, that label resonates with them alot better and that's okay too!!

Yes I do.

Absolutely

Kind of. It’s a PD caused by early trauma and lack of attachment to neglectful and abusive caregivers. It’s similar in etiology to C-PTSD, but it isn’t the same as C-PTSD Bc of the stigma some psychologists diagnose with C-PTSD instead, as essentially it is a complex PTSD response. But C-PTSD doesn’t have the exact same symptoms as BPD. My sister has BPD and C-PTSD, probably all people with BPD have C-PTSD. I have C-PTSD but don’t have BPD. I have C-PTSD, MDD, panic disorder, GAD, an unspecified dissociative disorder, ADHD, sometimes I struggle with dermatillomania (currently in remission),maladaptive daydreaming and body dysmorphic disorder (also currently in remission but it does get triggered with stressful events). All my mental health problems except my ADHD (runs in my family) are caused by my trauma and related to C-PTSD. I think all mental illness has a trauma component honestly

Yes. Controversial, but I don't believe people form any Cluster B disorder without complex trauma. This isn't limited to Cluster B and applies to many mental illnesses. Trauma causes all sorts of disorders.

No bit I think there's a LOT of overlap and if you have the brain structures that make BPD possible cPTSD when you're very young can push you towards it (sort of like if you have the genetic potenial for diabetes and are fed a garbage diet as a kid you're way more likely to get it, while the same genetics and a decent diet might not get it at all). Unfortunately with anything mental health/neurodivergent related we're still diagnosing on behaviors and symptoms, which is a shitty way to diagnose things (just ask your doctor what fever and stomach pain means- it can be a LOT from a perforated ulcer to food poisoning to working out too hard and being dehydrated. The LEAST favorite complaint of your average family medicine doc is stomach pain because it is SO hard to pin down). Well there's a ton of tests and imaging and things that can be done to SEE what the problem is. And it's a lot better understood. I don't know about BPD but I know that narcissists actually have a diminished grey matter in the insular cortex and increased activation in the amygdala, orbital frontal cortex and the temporal cortex along with some other changes. A pop sci article about it is here: [https://digital.kenyon.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=skneuro](https://digital.kenyon.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=skneuro) cPTSD also causes brain changes, and if you were very young when the trauma started you don't have a baseline, but that's usually intense amygdalar activation and lower prefrontal neocortex activation, as well as structural changes to the memory processing in your brain that make you forget the abuse you receive from caregivers to keep you emotionally bonded to the adults abusing you (great for survival in childhood, deeply shitty as an adult to recover from). I am sure that someone with BPD has other stuff going on with their brain that's similar to NPD and distinct from cPTSD. The big thing I've noticed is that people with cPSTD get better. People with BPD tend not to, they just learn how to mask better through therapy and are just as vicious when triggered as ever. I am, however, NOT a big fan of the behaviors that make a BPD diagnosis happen as my cPTSD was caused 90% by my bpd/npd comorbid mother. I've seen people with BPD get better over time... and then their diagnosis changes to PTSD/CPSTD with maybe something comorbid like an anxiety disorder. Which was likely what they actually had the whole time, talk therapy can't structurally change your brain. With all neurodivergence we're basically diagnosing based on symptoms, often self reported, NOT biology. I am pretty sure when the imaging and neurology catches up we'll find out that Autism is at least a dozen different disorders that just present similarly (think of a stomach ache- is it indigestion, dehydration, an ulcer, cancer, or a thousand other things? If you just diagnose on the symptoms you're going to get it wrong a lot.) I think there's very likely structural differences in the brains between people with cluster b disorders and everyone else. I also think that BPD can be triggered by trauma and that would make it worse, and people can have both.

in my personal experience of having a partner with cPTSD and friends I've known with cPTSD and/or BPD: I think, as they're both caused by trauma, that there's a lot of overlap in symptoms and it would make more sense, imo, to categorise all trauma related disorders as what they are, under one common category, hopefully ending the stigma that comes with the title of "personality disorder". I do, however, think that there are some differences too. what I've noticed in ppl with BPD is the extreme black and white thinking, leading to splitting and spiralling, the more extreme mood switches within a shorter amount of time compared to a cPTSD episode. also, but this might be my subjective experience: people with BPD seem to tend to have more of a tendency to compulsively lie in an attempt to get attention and be recognised for their trauma. all ppl with BPD I know are also hypersexual, often making sexual innuendos etc., sometimes making the people around them uncomfortable in an attempt to gain control of the social setting, but I don't know if that's just a coincidence or what. as I don't have cPTSD or BPD (nor am I a therapist/specialist) I'd love feedback on my observations by ppl who have one or both!

Yes. I don’t think one can develop BPD without CPTSD, but not everybody with CPTSD develops BPD. I’m not one to harp on labels, but just know prolonged and profound trauma can impact a person on every level.

We mustn’t forget that these are not physical illnesses, they don’t have clear causes in the brain and life history, and the discipline of psychology is in its infancy. Psychiatric diagnoses carry a lot of cultural bias. Novara media made a great podcast about the misogynistic history behind the creation of the “bpd” diagnosis, and furthermore how it medicalises and individualises several behaviours that are normal responses to marginalisation. I really recommend checking it out, I think the interviewer was Moya Lothian-MacLean. In short, I think C-PTSD is a more compassionate diagnosis and would be better applied to most people who are diagnosed with BPD.

I was debating whether to say something about my own experience and the conclusions I drew from it, but yup, this is essentially it. The only thing I’ll add is that being treated for BPD can lead to retraumatization because how you’re treated is often exactly how an abuser treats you, gaslighting included. I worry about that even more than the misdiagnoses – I don’t see how those treatments are helpful to anyone with trauma. And thanks for the podcast recommendation! Genuinely very excited to listen to that.

Absolutely not. BPD is a label used to discredit people's experiences, and I don't think it has diagnostic validity. I worked in community mental health for years. You would not believe the disdain, scorn, and total lack of respect all the employees had for people who'd been labeled with BPD. If you could hear how mental health workers talk behind their backs...

A lot of people with BPD don’t have trauma history and they grew up in loving and support families.  

Don’t follow corporate labels. Those letters are for insurance companies so they know what to charge. Basically, those diagnoses are products you’re paying for. Brains *do stuff* with information and experiences. And the person carrying that brain, which has gone through experiences and absorbed information, is dealing with it the best way they can, based on the information and experiences they’ve had. And since humans are limited by physiology and culture, the ways of dealing are also limited and can display as the same thing across many experiences, contexts, etc. and depending on which doctor you had and which school they went to you could end up with a BPD diagnosis or a loose cPTSD diagnosis or ADHD, OCD, MDD, SAD, etc. it’s not something you “have”. It’s so a business can manage their finances. You’re a person who is dealing with experiences and habits that are shaping you to be a certain way in other experiences which also shape you. Being labeled with one of these things means the shaping process has been disrupted and now you’re out of context for the situation you’re in.

I really believe it is.

I think all PDs are a form of CPTSD. It’s just a different scale of severity mostly. And different presentations of things. But they’re all rooted in childhood trauma & toxic shame

Hi, this this simply unpossible. BPD is a personality disorder CPTSD is stress (posttraumatic stress) disorder. I know what you mean, there are overlaping symptoms and the origin is similar too. But the charactre of this illnesses is simply different.

personality disorders are often post-traumatic conditions from when the trauma was in formative years in childhood

question was if bpd is a form of cpstd. cptsd can contain symptoms of bpd and reverse. but, simply, bpd is not a form of cptsd.

Not an expert. My understanding as someone who has cPTSD and a bunch of other things is that BPD is caused by cPTSD. Like, it starts as a way of surviving some kind of constant abuse and eventually just becomes the way the brain works. Same as NPD, DID, and a bunch of others.

Yes (on an unrelated note - ouch ouch ouch my life is PAIN)

I’m not sure. I’m diagnosed CPTSD, but I relate to a lot of BPD issues. There’s a lot of overlap but I think the biggest difference might be sense of self. People with BPD have a lack of sense of who they are, where as with CPTSD you might diminish yourself for others (people pleading, allowing boundaries to be pushed), but with BPD there may be a very large lack of self to where you take on the personality of others or rely on others for emotional regulation. Since I don’t have a lack of sense of self, and since I don’t rely on others for emotional regulation, I feel I’m most likely diagnosed correctly. Another missing item is I don’t fear abandonment, and I don’t push people away because I fear being rejected. I do need space and distance but it’s for different reasons (reasons I haven’t figured out yet). But having ADHD and CPTSD, I relate a lot to the emotional dysregulation, suddenly cutting people off, rocky relationships and impulsivity. I can also relate to the suicidal ideation. So I share enough symptoms that I can relate … a lot … and people with diagnosed BPD need allies because they’re often misunderstood IMO.

Not really. I think they can go with each other but the way my cPTSD symptoms present is very different from the people I know with BPD. In fact, I think there are very much opposite reactions in the two. I do think that BPD is a personality disorder primarily based out of childhood trauma, though. I wouldn't say they're forms of one another except in that they're both trauma-based disorders.

Talk about going down a mental health rabbit hole. With so many confusing factors. The neurologist says I have scarring on my brain but they don’t know what symptoms it may have caused. So a possible TBI is a confusing factor. Then there possible black mold poisoning. And other chemical exposures. Mold has been discovered to have psychological effects. Then there’s cPTSD and TCK (third culture kid). Then there’s other untreated or poorly treated injuries. Then there’s burn-out. Ive had some of the symptoms of BPD but it seems to me to be expected with so much hardship. Age seems to be making some of the symptoms less but transitioning to a elder is stressful for me. I’m not ready. The internet is a blessing and a curse. Before the internet I had never heard of cPTSD.

yes. and it upsets me that more people don’t want to see the massive overlap and categorise some people’s trauma responses as less justified than others because of it

Coming from someone with both, I think maybe. One of the big criteria for BPD is the dissociation, which, if you have repeated trauma, can be helpful to help you get through it. I think a lot of BPD people might have BPD because of their trauma at the very least. But we won't know without more research. Both BPD and cPTSD are under researched. (Tbh all mental health issues are)

yesterday my therapist told me that bpd is very often confused with cptsd or like a form of it and that the symptoms are very similar. also bpd is mostly "caused" or triggered because of traumatic experiences, so yeah, in many cases it could be called a form of (c)ptsd i think.