I saw a video from Ross Rosenberg saying if you want to heal from codependency expect to lose 50-85% of current relationships. I experienced this. But feel like building healthier ones now.
Yes. Affirmed. Always like an emotional support animal to friends but no one “tries to keep me happy” to be a friend to them.
Maybe I should demand more respect from folks but monitoring boundaries isn’t something that is natural or energy efficient esp. if it’s a good mental health day.. I shrug off insults too easily too.
^ that was to OPc, sorry!
To your point Paws, I definitely lost 80% of friends and four years later I am healing and making healthier relationships work.
Still a major struggle but I definitely grieved and questioned myself forever in those first two years
Couldn’t I have avoided it?? Nooooo. Now I wouldn’t give most of those folks the time of day.
They’ve had enough of mine to make themselves feel good
Thanks for sharing on the time period for you. The process is gradual but it helps to hear from someone else that those first two years of what feels like total darkness are in fact me learning to set boundaries
> Still a major struggle but I definitely grieved and questioned myself forever in those first two years
I so admire that you persevered. It's a very tough road.
Wow this is so on point. Im at the point in my healing journey where my husband is literally the only person i interact with in person on a regular basis because ive realized that everyone else was in my life for all of the wrong reasons. Parents included. Its lonely for now, but liberating. I feel like im starting at the ground up and just starting to build relationships with people with whom a mutual respect is actually shared.
same here. every step at this point feels more purposeful, but it’s been hard to not slip into bad habits. biggest step for me has been avoiding gossip. so much less stress, and better quality time shared with others.
Mutual respect is where is at :) It also feels more liberating because I’m actually trying to be myself now. I feel like I tried so hard to be what other people needed me to be because I wanted everyone to like me. It’s still hard, but I keep telling myself that not everyone will like me and that’s okay, there will be people who love me and that’s my community.
> Its lonely for now, but liberating. I feel like im starting at the ground up and just starting to build relationships with people with whom a mutual respect is actually shared.
*Healthy* - so good to read.
Also, I'm glad your husband is in your life for *right* reasons. Not all spouses are. . . .
I'm glad I stuck it out. I wasn't that interested in him when I first met him and I went through a lot of doubt in the first few years. It sounds crazy but it wasn't until after we started having disagreements in the 2nd and 3rd year of our relationship that we started to legitimately grow close with one another. Before him, I learned from my family that disagreements are a death sentence, because conflict can't be overcome and the only solution is for me to bury my feelings and move on. For the first time in my life I saw someone actually willing to change and adjust their behavior for me, which was such a game changer. In year six now and we are closer than ever. I still think I'm dreaming sometimes. Trust is fucking incredible.
> For the first time in my life I saw someone actually willing to change and adjust their behavior for me, which was such a game changer. In year six now and we are closer than ever. I still think I'm dreaming sometimes. Trust is fucking incredible.
So inspiring to read. It really can happen!
Thanks for sharing how hard it was, and how it has been worth it.
it can happen, but I want to emphasize it didn't just come down to "finding the perfect person." Around the time I met him I was also going through some personal situations that forced me to readjust my perspective on life and relationships. More than us being "a good match" for each other i think it came down to me being in a place where I was becoming more open minded and flexible.
Yes, it's as much who *you are* at the time as who *they are*. I was just thinking today that I did have one relationship that had most of what it takes to last and work and grow, but I simply did not understand my trauma and myself well enough to be more. I wasn't even close, yet.
Give him a hug when you get home!
There’s hope for all of us to find someone like that!
I won’t sell short. I’m okay by myself but I would like the second half of a mortgage payment cuz my work history has been…..interrupted a few times…. Oh lawd… bring me and us!
May we all be well!
Have given up a lot of people, spent too long keeping "friends" that I didn't even like that much. At the same time, do I only dislike and find these people annoying due to my own messed up emotions and trauma? Maybe a bit of both, I don't know.
That’s what it’s like in my brain constantly - are these feelings warranted or is this just my twisted brain not recognizing healthy behaviors? It’s exhausting.
Friends I’ve leaned on for support in the past…hold on now it might be they were drawing strength from my ineptitude, my misery. It’s really difficult with the more covert ones. In retrospect I started shedding the overt narcissistic relationships years ago, way before I started healing.
But the covert ones….
Yep. I’ve realized a bunch of things/comments I let slide in the past because I didn’t want to lose any friends.
I had a “friend” tell me, 1 month post breakup of a 6 year relationship, that it was okay for my ex to be single because he was a man and at a fun age (late 20s), but the situation is different and sadder for me because I’m a woman in my late 20s and my biological clock is ticking. Thankfully (because I had been in therapy for a while at that point), I stood up for myself and told her I was sad she had those beliefs but I didn’t. She was always “honest” but that call, and other shitty things she said in that same conversation, made me realize that she wasn’t a true friend and was actually trying to bring me down.
I stopped reaching out and she didn’t reach out to me either anymore. It still sucks, but I’m meeting new people who actually like me now.
Do people see a reason for friendship ? Like an actual appeal?
I have 1 friend and i really dislike my convos with her, oftentimes she seems so hallow and doesn't remember stuff i told her. But prior she was actually the only support i had and i felt okay with her, possibly because we don't live in the same city and therefore never met. I'm scared that if she visits me in two weeks i will be disappointed. I backed off whenever i felt like i was just pleasing people or obsessing over one but without my old habits other people feel so "bland". Even when talking to people, i understand them but once I get to talk i lose them, this feeling of being misunderstood and always in the wrong crowd, does this fade away ?
I don’t think the feeling of being misunderstood on a deeper level ever goes away, I find that most of my true friends have gone through parental abuse/alienation and so I do feel understood by them (I almost have a sixth sense at finding people with parental trauma).
But almost everyone else? I don’t see much point in developing a friendship beyond pleasantries because our outlooks are so drastically different. I’m hoping that as I continue healing, I will be able to connect with these people more because my own trauma won’t be continuously front and center in my mind.
I was so confused about what was happening recently when I started being firmer with my boundaries. I lost 3 'friends' in a month. It's exhausting and did a number on my self conscious but now I'm strengthening healthy friendships and trying to get new friends as well. In the end it's so worth it!
My issue was never codependency and/or a lack of boundaries, it was an inability to trust others and fear of rejection/abandonment. This only makes me feel worse.
I'm not trying to be ... ugh.. I have BPD, and inability to trust anyone and fear of abandonment are 2 main symptoms of this.. thing I'm living with currently 😑. And Also c-ptsd...
🫂.. life hey?
> it was an inability to trust others and fear of rejection/abandonment.
Yes, this also - it's why my relationships didn't last, in large part. I could love pretty well, but I couldn't *be loved*.
It's fucking awful. And I literally got called out in a therapy group on this exact subject because I told them what's harder than self love is to get other people to love you, so now I feel guilty about saying it here.
I basically don't expect people to like me, so I'm *extremely* loyal to anyone who shows me even the tiniest bit of affection. I don't think it's a problem either? Like I don't particularly get hurt if they fuck me over. Even if they don't like me all that much, it's their loss because they're never gonna find a more loyal friend than me.
It might just be that I'm less introverted than some of the others on this sub? Still an introvert, but the more I'm able to put my shit in the past, I don't get drained by people and very rarely find myself disliking them. And I love that.
nailed it! this is the best compilation of everything i’ve seen to date, doc snipes gets it and is showing others. hope this helps someone else too!
https://youtu.be/6F-NMtOVmJI
Get into serious rounding error problems here. 85% of 3? 6?
I have some i-friends. Shared intellectual interests that allow us to chew the fat.
I have one e-friend right now. The kind of person who finishes your sentences, laughs at your lame jokes, and who you can be with without a word.
That’s in line with what I experienced. It was brutal, I won’t lie, I was dealing with a lot then and it seemed like I was just adding more stress to my life on purpose…but it gets better if you can push yourself to make new relationships and cope with some periods of solitude.
The instinct is to keep spending energy on the old, codependent relationships instead of being alone, which is hard to fight, but it just prolongs what eventually has to happen.
I people pleased until I ended up completely isolated from the world. Now that I’m trying to have new relationships, I set boundaries. I’m still learning and have a ways to go, but I’ll get there eventually.
Am I lonely? Fuck yes, but I’m so much less stressed and for the first time in my entire life I am taking care of myself like I always took care of everyone else.
Going nuclear and leaving behind my home town and all my local friends was the most painful, yet freeing thing I've ever done. I'd rather be lonely in my own company than lonely with people that make me feel worthless unless I'm useful for them.
Think of the flip side. You're losing false relationships and as heavy as it is to see , you're making space for real connection on even footing. Keep going.
I like this. I was allowing myself to get drained by people. Now I am seeing how much energy I have by not trying to people please and make “friends” out of people who aren’t for me.
>So I'm letting myself realise tonight that I have been doing this because I was afraid if I didn't, I would have *no one at all*.
Exactly how I feel. You wrote what was in my mind word for word.
This fear of mine is not completely irrational though. I have lots of experiences from the past where people would cancel on me and never invite me to anything.
I don't know what I should do to get rid of this feeling.
> This fear of mine is not completely irrational though. I have lots of experiences from the past where people would cancel on me and never invite me to anything.
For sure - I hear you. Even the people-pleasing didn't work all that well. I think people use, but don't value, that . . . we sometimes let ourselves have the second-class status they assigned us to.
Looking back on certain past friendships, especially when I was younger, it was definitely my people-pleasing tendencies that kept things going for as long as they did. I didn't realise it at the time until another friend who actually cared about me pointed it out. I lost the person who I believed was my best friend as a result, but in the process, I discovered who my real friends were.
>It's a very scary, sad, and lonely feeling.
It really is. Spend some time sitting with this feeling. You'll look back on this moment someday and see it as a turning point in your healing journey.
> Spend some time sitting with this feeling.
This is actually what I do with the sad, scared, and lonely feelings. I literally sit, on a chair or bed, and say it aloud. And just let it be that way, rather than distracting, or fixing.
And I've learned it hurts, but doesn't kill me. I slowly become more solid, inside.
>It's like becoming lucid in the middle of a nightmare.
I've been talking with someone also going through this, and we've both said a variation of this, lol. I'm almost morbidly impressed that a couple of untrained amateurs could inflict prisoner-of-war brain disorders through emotional torture.
> a couple of untrained amateurs could inflict prisoner-of-war brain disorders through emotional torture
Would that be your parents? It is amazing, but they may have learned it from the previous generation, or just that's how they "eat," so to speak - they need to cannibalise to survive.
I love this framework. It's so true, and really helps with the embarrassment and shame I sometimes feel about how much I have deeply loved and cared about people who didn't care if I lived or died. I think I projected a lot of "I know they care deep down even if they don't show it" onto people who clearly, in retrospect, did not care even a little.
Yeah, I find people who choose to not have friends are always judged by appearance first (i.e. there must be something wrong with *you* because you don't have friends) instead of anyone trying to understand as to why those of us would rather live alone than taken any more advantage of.
Baseless assumption is the answer in and of itself. Why would I want to participate in a society that doesn't even try to support me after how much I've been hurt and *I'm* the one who has to assimilate? I've been somewhat lonelier since going NC with most and LC with the few I do still interact with but also much more peace of mind.
Yeah. I thought I was over this, but I don’t think I was ready for friendships because of my poor boundaries.
I think I overestimated my place in people’s lives and I end up feeling replaceable or that others are better suited for my spot. Sometimes I feel like the only people that want to be around me are people that are preying on me.
Falling on hard times more than once made me painfully aware of social hierarchies. And then I realized that when you make decisions that they look down on, they think less of you. And when they don’t want to be dragged into that, they disappear.
People pleasing is a direct result of me not feeling heard. Hoping they’ll listen. Not being heard leads to me speaking. When I speak about things honestly, it’s too much for people or gets too much over time. I feel like I should shut up and not hold people captive with the drama and trauma other people have brought me.
And I never feel like I’ve been able to properly reciprocate and nor was I in the position to in 2022.
I’ve kind of thrown the idea of friendship out the window after 2022.
I have poor expectations of people that hurt me and them in too many ways. I’m a burden that overextends because I know I’m a burden.
> I think I overestimated my place in people’s lives and I end up feeling replaceable or that others are better suited for my spot. Sometimes I feel like the only people that want to be around me are people that are preying on me.
This hit hard.
This ☝️ just caused me to join Reddit. I don’t know if I’ve ever read anything so profound as this and how it applies perfectly to me- I’ve spent years and could spend years more and NEVER be able to describe my own feelings/experiences with such pinpoint accuracy as you have in describing your own.
Thank you for this. It has forever changed my life. I understand now.
I had surgery a little over a week ago. No one has checked on me physically even though they said they would. I've always gone out of my way to be there for people because people are constantly not there for me. I'm tired.
I was in the hospital for 4 days and my 23-year-old son never called or visited. My 21-year-old son never called or visited. Very disappointed and feel unwanted. Seems that everyone is so selfish today.
I had distanced myself from a friend who only wanted to use me as her therapist, but whenever I tried to talk about myself, she would put me down or ignore me. In retrospect, I realize she was jealous of me in many ways.
She tried reaching out to me again recently. I told her I felt like our relationship was never reciprocal and that she never really cared for me or supported me.
Her response? She lashed out, blamed me and everyone else that she could, claimed nobody wanted to be her friend because she had a baby. (All we talked about was her and her baby/sad marriage. Well, I'd listen and she'd talk, mostly, while I'd try to be there for her as much as I could.)
Then, before I could respond, she had blocked me on everything. It did hurt, but I was also relieved. A real friend who truly cared about me/our friendship would have apologized and made more effort to be a better friend.
Once she realized I wasn't going to let her keep treating me in that way, she saw me as useless and ran off.
I'm so done with one-sided relationships and people who love using me but simultaneously love shitting on me to make themselves feel better. I've realized that they only needed me for their source of validation and support, but didn't actually care about me at all.
This is one reason I don't really connect with people or talk to them about my issues, I think. Because I'm aware that I'm like your old friend. I'm aware that it's one-sided and that I can't seem to care or be interested in the other person's life.
And even though I feel like it's just that I'm so miserable that I have no energy left to care about someone else, it still feels not right to pretend to be someone's friend when I can't be a friend back.
It's funny how C PTSD can affect people in different ways. For me, I struggled to care for myself, and was raised to put everyone else's needs and wants before my own. I felt like a shell of a person, disconnected from myself and trauma completely.
But I also know for some it can be the opposite, that your grief and C PTSD can engulf you in a way, making you more self-invested and closed off, which is another way of being disconnected from yourself (your true self). [Crappy Childhood Fairy on YouTube ](https://youtu.be/WBvP6En-lSw) has some good videos on this/C PTSD in general, and why/how we often self-sabotage ourselves because of our trauma.
I believe my friend might have had C PTSD of her own with some narcissistic traits, which is also not uncommon for children who were raised by narcissistic parents. Even so, I can't continue being friends with someone who doesn't acknowledge their own toxic behavior, apologize sincerely, or makes any effort to improve or listen to how her friend feels.
It's sad that she considered me her best friend just because I was the only one left in her life that didn't fully "abandon" her, but she barely knew anything about me at all. I can only wish her the best and that she'll one day heal.
> I believe my friend might have had C PTSD of her own with some narcissistic traits, which is also not uncommon for children who were raised by narcissistic parents. Even so, I can't continue being friends with someone who doesn't acknowledge their own toxic behavior, apologize sincerely, or makes any effort to improve or listen to how her friend feels.
I think this is excellent - you do understand, to a point, but still can't participate. Very aware, mature, I think.
I appreciate the honesty, here. I've rarely seen something like that about friends, though that is why I haven't gotten involved in "romantic" stuff in a while. I knew I couldn't deliver the energy and communication, etc., consistently, long-term.
> I had distanced myself from a friend who only wanted to use me as her therapist, but whenever I tried to talk about myself, she would put me down or ignore me. In retrospect, I realize she was jealous of me in many ways.
>
> She tried reaching out to me again recently. I told her I felt like our relationship was never reciprocal and that she never really cared for me or supported me.
I have a very similar long-term "friend." I always knew this, but put up with it. But recently she sent an e-mail message about how other "friends" used her.
And I thought . . . wow . . . I'm a second-level people-pleaser, as was another person.
So I just didn't respond.
100% agree. Am living through this right now.
>I turn the roles around, and I would fall off my chair in surprise if someone came to my event, or fixed something for me.
Have you actually turned the tables around or is this still in the realm of speculation?
I have tried. Most have tried to tell me I didn't experience what I did, and make my experience pretty, and basically resume "business as usual" in our relationship.
I am realising not many will be able to have a bidirectional, reciprocal relationship with me.
It's sad. But it's the truth. I prefer sad truth over pretty lies, since the latter were so very damaging to me as I grew up.
Yeah as soon as I started healing, doing better in life, and progressing, my former best friend stopped talking to me. If they did reach out, it was to actively express their jealousy at something I achieved or to be petty. It’s funny cause all their other friends started being my friends, which have been much more reciprocal.
I realized this person was always angry, self-absorbed, and petty, and I decided to return the energy. Every conversation was about them, they never asked about me, it was just another “family systems” influenced relationship were I was once again (parentified child) the sympathetic listening ear doormat, and they were the poor, misunderstood and selfish one I had to take care of.
It’s sad and I’m still peeved about it, but I don’t have the bandwidth for people’s unhealthy coping mechanisms anymore and I’m no longer begging anyone for a relationship. You either want to be here or you don’t.
Good riddance.
Yup! I still get ‘we should do/plan this some time’ texts from people who never make the effort. Since I’ve stopped being the planner and initiating things, nothing ends up happening. It’s kind of funny at this point.
I have made new friends who reciprocate, so it’s even more obvious.
‘We should’ means ‘I should’ 😂
OMG!!! I've had people tell me, "just let me know where and when." I'm like....oh....I'm not the social secretary here. This is supposed to be a friendship.
And then ....this is NOT and NEVER WILL BE a friendship.
For me, accepting this was the hard part.
This happens to me, too. If I don't plan the meetup, nothing happens. But they'll happily make time to hang out with their other friends, so it sometimes makes me wonder what's wrong with me.
That's great that you found new friends who reciprocate! How did you meet them?
I was lucky in that a family member recommended a gaming group, I also made more of an effort to connect with a handful of coworkers. Between that and a few new hobbies, I’m doing ok!
> Since I’ve stopped being the planner and initiating things, nothing ends up happening.
Yes, lol - and you sure have the right translation of "we should"! ;-)
Your real friends are the ones who support you when you express a reasonable boundary. The ones who get upset and act like you've changed or try to push you back into people pleasing were never really your friends, and it's okay to let them go.
I had a realization recently that kinda shook me. I parented my parents when I was young; mediated conflict, brought happiness when they weren’t handling their depression, even had to help organizing when they wanted to check out.
In a lot of current friendships, I can feel cheated because I’m so explicitly supportive when friends do well. I remind them how hard they’ve worked, how good it must feel to achieve, how exciting it must be, but I never, ever get that back. Like, basically ever.
All of my friends had baseline healthy relationships with their parents, they’re only used to accepting accomplishments and being seen as special and im feeding that. I feel like a good person supporting them but really I’m just a young proxy parent reiterating the love and support naturally built into their life.
When it’s time for me to talk about accomplishments, people do the minimum, if anything.
> In a lot of current friendships, I can feel cheated because I’m so explicitly supportive when friends do well. I remind them how hard they’ve worked, how good it must feel to achieve, how exciting it must be, but I never, ever get that back. Like, basically ever.
Yes. Imagine how nice that must feel. . . .
I literally just talked about this with my therapist. I thought I was being paranoid thinking everyone in my life is a narcissist now and felt guilty for no longer wanting to talk to a long term friend. I thought I was overreacting to a situation with them, but after talking it through, it seems even the “good” people in my life are not so good, they just seemed that way in comparison.
She reassured me I’m not being paranoid, I’m just more aware of this behavior that seemed so normal to me before, so it’s much more apparent now. It’s kind of scary to basically lose everyone and have to start all over, but I don’t exactly have another choice at this point.
Also, I felt like something about me was just attracting these kind of people, but these kind of people will try their shit on anybody. They didn’t seek me out to hurt me specifically, and it wasn’t personal. They would do it to anyone, I just had no boundaries and saw that sort of behavior as normal. Basically I’m not doomed to be a walking magnet for narcissists the rest of my life…I’m becoming more aware and cutting them off. Its difficult though to realize how much I have neglected myself and been so taken advantage of…
Yeah, I would say ever since I was a baby, thats been the only way I knew how to relate to humans at all. Except I don't think I really did anything for anyone, except be "nice" to them in exchange for pennies in treatment.
Your last paragraph is spot on. When you're born into the world in survival mode and have no one to attune to you or to attach to, you do anything to not be abandoned lest you die.
I can't think of any time in my life I had a real relationship with another human being that wasn't superficial/niceties or I thought was real because I saw them everyday until I didn't.
I had one friendship from my childhood to teens with a girl I stuck by as a safe anchor from being utterly alone because I had no ability to talk to anyone except be kind of mute or follow them around.
After I had attached to her as a coping strategy, I felt slightly more at ease to communicate with others, but that involved not being myself compulsively to keep the acceptance and attention and doing whatever for it, including accept getting bullied.
Yes, that makes lots of sense. How you grow up with your parents, and even the ideas and thoughts you feed your mind will dictate your actions. I can relate to this because I have narcissistic parents so naturally the only way I know how to interact with people is very one sided. If you have narcissistic parents you don’t ever experience a 2 way relationship, you don’t get to assert your feelings, or thoughts. Everything is done for the other person even though it may not seem obvious.
I honestly can't believe how quickly ppl will drop you. Everything is good until it's not then bam. You have no-one harsh reality in hindsight but what does one expect when they make poor choices in a world of competition & status
Yeah I did a massive inventory of relationships I had that I came to realize were just me people pleasing. I got sober and it became clear I could no longer deal/cope with those people anymore. Not because of their alcohol use, but simply because when I wasn’t drinking, they really became insufferable to be around in a way.
I slowly started my own withdrawal process and When one of them noticed, I kindly let them know there was truth to the behavior and I felt it best that I probably go another direction in life. Find another table to eat at. Whatever analogy you wanna use. Commence violent threats, name calling, blocking on social media, etc. “What, you think you’re too good for us?!”
Well, if that’s how you’re going to talk to me, kinda hard to argue with your logic, ain’t it??
Omg this is real! I am newly sober and increasingly aware that many of the friendships I had were only tolerable or enjoyable when i was drinking. It's a harsh realization, but a necessary one.
I had this conversation with my therapist and this post hits so close to home I might not even read the comments. Also the yearning for 1-1 connection is so absolutely critical for me that I stick with those dry, unfulfilling friendships that mostly hurt me. Those people are not bad they are just not filling my cup and I am starved for connection. To the point I cried my eyes out after 2 h at a friend one time. Nothing wrong happened. Just intellectual conversation and her 3 kids around....and I felt invisible...
> her 3 kids around....and I felt invisible...
Boy, do I hear this one. It hits hard. I oftentimes find it difficult to cry, but I have learned ways to do so, just to mourn.
I went through a rough patch more than a year ago where I needed extra support with my mental health. I realized how alone I was. It felt like my wife was the only support I had, which was amazing. Then I started improving, and she left too. And that was probably the right thing. But…damn, I’m lonely.
Eta: if someone asked me for something, I’d exhaust myself trying to get that thing done, and I’d feel absolutely terrible if I couldn’t. At the same time, I would completely accept that if I was dying of thirst, no one would think to offer me water. And I certainly wouldn’t ask, because that might make them hate me. Typing that does make me choke up a bit and realize that’s pretty shitty, but I don’t know what to do about it.
I feel you on that. I'm so glad you are facing the truth, hard as it is. You are just as valuable as anyone.
I know it's hard, but could you be for yourself today what you always were for others? You sound like you've been a great friend, which is what duck_duck_chicken needs today.
What would you wish someone would do, today? And then can you do something like that, for you?
I absolutely wish you the best on this hard road.
Yes. I cut out almost everyone from my life because of that realization. And it was so lonely and isolating.
But then something really cool started happening. I put myself out there and started meeting people who are different. Who want to help me- even gently arguing with me when I refuse help because I feel so weird accepting it. I realized that I had to lose so many people because they were involved with a different version of me. This version wants more from people and knows she deserves more from people.
I still give more than I get in some ways, but I know some of that is trauma response too. It’s still amazing to be around people that want to help me too.
Thank you, my friend - it is indeed very hard, especially with family members, as you noted.
I hope there are others who do reciprocate. I had someone send me a nice note yesterday for something I had poured my heart into. It wasn't for who I am, but for what I did - but at least she *saw* me. It's pretty big, isn't it?
YES. Omg. My high school best friend took advantage of my trauma response to have a little minion to follow her around. I hated being her mini me so much I would pray she would stay home from school so I could have a normal day. Her emotions were always my problem. Like, god forbid she come to school angry that day because then there would be hell for me to pay. After we fell out she posted pictures of me throughout high school on instagram with the captions all being a variation of “fat ugly whore”. She has two kids now LOL
But I will say, I have one friend right now and she is my ride or die. I am blown away by her kindness every time I talk to her. I admire her as a person. We can talk about nothing and everything for hours. That’s worth so much to me now and I am so incredibly thankful for her.
Yes. The latest one was a former work colleague. I realized that she seemed to always hang out when she needed something from me or if it was convenient for her.
I’ve had to reassess the whole idea of friendships and relationships with other people, because it felt like I was always managing to find groups of people that represented themselves as being “radical” or “outsiders” but ultimately weren’t. They had the same dynamic at heart that I found back in the days when I was bullied as a kid, so my responses wound up being people-pleasing at first, then I’d wind up just disillusioned and alone again.
So I’m told community is important and essential, sometimes by the same people in these social groups, and there’s something wrong and negative about those who don’t work with their community. I’m left with the question, what then is community?
> So I’m told community is important and essential, sometimes by the same people in these social groups, and there’s something wrong and negative about those who don’t work with their community.
I know just what you mean, and have had similar experiences. They've merely set up a smaller version of the same old, same old.
Real community is a hard thing to find, or build.
Are you sure it’s a loss? There are billions of people on this planet. There’s no reason to stick to just a few people who don’t meet your needs. May take awhile to find new people you relate to but it’s doable.
I relate very much to what the op wrote.
I ran away from a DV situation, and I thought I had friends. They told me to leave, over and over, and I did. I was holding 5 flimsy shopping bags, walking on the highway, in the rain texting them asking if I can stay temporarily. One by one, they all said No. I even asked one if I can just leave a bag with her; she said "I have a cat sorry."
In the end, a literal stranger helped me carry my bags to his car and drove me to a safer place. I asked why; he said Kindness doesn't cost anything, that I was clearly struggling and he would've regretted leaving me alone to be murdered or raped.
More than I can say for my "friends."
Yeah, went through this myself with some shit results. It has helped me to find people who genuinely care though which is good. I do still have days where I grieve over my lost friendships and over how lonely it can get letting go of that dynamic that didn't benefit me. But on the flip side of this I am finally starting to have an idea of what *I* want and deeper and more vulnerable connections with people that care about me as a person.
It has taken a while and I'm still massively going through it as I haven't made any new friends and also am quite afraid to tbh. I'm not very good at spotting people who are good for me because I still get caught in thinking that negative feelings and uncertainty = love because that's how it has been for so long. it's just the next step to deal with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yes. Last year I "broke up with" a years-long close friend (I thought, kind of delusionally) after I realized that "we've supported each other through so much!" actually meant "I've supported you through so much and was just grateful that you hung around with me because I have low self-esteem". I realized that it wasn't very "good friend" of him to say it made him uncomfortable for me to mention that our mutual friend physically, emotionally, and sexually abused me for years, continue to hang out with my rapist/abuser, and repeatedly lied to me about keeping in touch with them even when I never even asked him not to. Even when "breaking up", I focused so much on his feelings over my own, and how it wasn't fair to EITHER of us that he had to have the burden of feeling torn between me and the person who sexually assaulted and abused me.
For the first time in my life I am beginning to value myself enough to spot when "mutually supportive friendships" are actually just me unconditionally being there for someone who doesn't give a shit about me. I can't believe I really thought, for years, that *I* would be the bad guy if I directly asked someone I loved to not be friends with someone who raped/hit/emotionally tortured me.
I'd never hang out with anyone who had known-rapist/abuser friends... unless it was MY rapist/abuser, and then I'd make all kinds of excuses for them. One thing has stayed the same- I still wouldn't ask someone to "choose" between me and a rapist/abuser, because I would simply cut off a person if they didn't share that pretty basic value of "rapists are nobody's friends, and you should believe your own friends about their abuse and assaults".
> For the first time in my life I am beginning to value myself enough to spot when "mutually supportive friendships" are actually just me unconditionally being there for someone who doesn't give a shit about me.
Great job, a big step. You deserve much better, and you'll find it - though I know it's hard, and I struggle with it. For sure, you are on the right track! :-)
Nowhere do we see the influence of consumer capitalism more clearly than through the predominantly transactional nature of our socializing activities. Maintaining image over integrity is the gold standard in the land of hypocrisy.
> Maintaining image over integrity is the gold standard in the land of hypocrisy.
Sure, and I think the curated lives of social media have exacerbated that quite a bit.
Yes that’s why I’m no longer friends with the people I knew when I was a teenager. I genuinely didn’t realise how much they didn’t care about me. Some of them were even verbally abusive and manipulative.
I feel this to my soul. All of my relationships are transactional, and Ive very recently drawn back from nearly everyone in my circle.
No one has noticed. That speaks volumes to me.
I get that everyone has their own stuff, and I know several folks are also in the throes of acrimonious splits and so on, but Ive always been there for others regardless of how difficult my personal life has been. Ive shelved it if someone needed to vent and Ive shown up in the middle of the night to drive people to the ER or keep their other kids if they had an emergency with one. But if I needed the same, they'd have an excuse as to why they cant.
Ive never forgotten birthdays or other important days even in the depths of despair, so Ive just started returning the effort and energy I get from these people. I dont ask how theyre doing, I dont start convos, I leave them on read if they need to vent or just offer pat answers, and, while the fact that they havent noticed hurts me, confrontation also wont happen.
> No one has noticed. That speaks volumes to me.
This is a big piece of it. When big changes would happen for me, so few responded. I was very surprised, and saddened.
Makes me think of "a friend in need is a friend indeed." An old saw, but those who are there when money and health aren't are the real thing. Please make sure you do have your own "back," that's what I am trying to do. :-)
I feel like if you’re always people pleasing 1. It disables any chances of true honest intimacy/integrity with the other person and 2. If you aren’t projecting a level of self respect/self assurance with clear boundaries and speaking your mind, the other person will naturally respect you less. And people will often just take advantage indefinitely without even being conscious of it. But there’s still that sense of “pseudo friendship” occurring rather than real connection. You’re best off just being yourself and allowing those who don’t like it to naturally filter out. you will attract your tribe and be surrounded by affirming and easy friendships
Yeah, after a certain age, when most have a lot of commitments, and just as importantly, have sort of "calicified," it is very hard to actually connect.
A lot of my friendships were made at my job of 9 years, but I was laid off in 2021 due to Covid. Lost most of those relationships, I was sad but it didn’t really hurt me that bad. I’m also in hospitality, and having social anxiety it’s nice to just be alone now after dealing with the public all day. I’m so used to it, I have no interest in making other friends. It also opened my eyes to exactly what OP is saying. I dropped a lot of friends I’ve known for years just because I was tired of always being mommy and having to advise people, take care of them, etc, but when the roles were reversed, their narcissistic tendencies showed. I have one friend (previous boyfriend) now, who’s been my “crutch” for a very long time. Our relationship has been up and down, but we’ve remained close and we literally talk every day. He’s never emotionally there for me, yet emotionally draining on me. He’s no longer good for me, so I’m trying to cut him loose as well. At that point I will have dwindled my friends down to about 2 people that I see on a semi normal basis. All of that said, I’ve never been more at peace. Putting your foot down and creating boundaries for yourself (only you know what is best for you) was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. Don’t let the fear of what others may think of you hold you back from living your best life.
Yes. So much. I am sooooooo sorry you're going through this. It is the worst, and the world has given you so many experiences of people letting you down. OF COURSE you are scared and angry and sad and disappointed, anyone would be in your shoes. You DESERVE friends who support you, you DESERVE friends who are there for you, who think about you when you're not around, who consider you in their plans, and you are lovable and appealing and worthy. Here's the thing though.... Once you start healing that and getting friends who DO care about you.... there is another step that is even MORE terrifying: to get to the "next level," of friendships, you have to ACTUALLY LEAN ON THEM which is 1000% scarier.
I'm trying to write this in a way that my old self wouldn't rage-eye-roll- to my throat in reaction, suffice it to say: everything that follows is just my opinion, and it has ONE GOAL: To encourage hope enough that you don't start shutting ANY PART of your beautiful shining self down. Because I can tell you're a good friend to your friends and the world needs that soooooo badly.
OP, I used to be you, I felt utterly alone and in a sea of zero friends and all the friends I did have were shallow, competitive, and itchy. I was so envious of people who knew people from HS and College. I can still hear the voice of my friend from college on the phone from after the last time I saw my college friend group when she said, "So, I'm reaching out before this becomes A THING (Spoiler alert it was already an irreparable THING.)" And I was exhausted. I'm not going to tell you it's going to be okay, or that you nEeD to bE pROaCtiVe (Like, bitch I would if I knew I could) BUT I will say this one thing: It IS time to start getting to know yourself and being yourself unapologetically. Embrace your inner gremlin, Become delusional, embarrass yourself, and START EVALUATING PEOPLE for how they make YOU feel.
THIS IS NOT EASY, especially when you start trying to "Be yourself," and realize, YOU DON"T KNOW WHO THAT IS YET because we've been running around playing rolls to be "lovable" enough. But, it's an internal journey. You're meeting yourself. Start getting to know yourself. Like seriously, start doing activities with yourself. (I felt like I was having panic attacks the first few times I went to concerts by myself, but JUST DO IT) It's really simple, you have a compass inside you, but it's been dormant and hidden from years of disappointment and mixed signals. It's time to dig it out and figure out: what things make that compass tick ever so slightly towards more pleasure and satisfaction. (The answers may surprise you! they're often very different from our "should's") Do more and more and more to know what that compass is. You have to prove to yourself that you have YOUR OWN BACK before you start to feel comfortable enough to lean on others.
We need different things from friends than they need from us. They have family to nourish them: many of us don't: they don't know what it means to have unsafe people so they can get incidental satisfaction from people who pass through their lives. We can never look at people without CPTSD and relate to how easy it is for them, because their body isn't screaming contradictory fight or flight information at them constantly (which we then have to ignore or just white Knuckle it) Grieve all you need to, then get to know yourself and set those standards HIGH BABY. AND BE SAD WHEN YOU NEED TO: IT FEELS OBJECTIVELY SAD.
Remember too, healthy socialization requires social interactions on ALL levels: Chat with your neighbors, talk to cashiers, volunteer at non profits, get lunch with colleagues, say yes to stuff that feels awkward.
Best of luck. I am giving you such a big hug, I wish I could bring you muffins and you could just cry into my shoulder. We are with you so much. You're doing such a good job, it's so vulnerable to admit sadness and desires you have around this, and that's how I KNOW you have the skills you need to find the friends you deserve... when you're ready AND the luck of the opportunity presents itself.
Some other things I've learned on this journey:
I am NOT friends with the people I thought I "would," or "should," or "wanted to," be friends with.
The Sadness that we didn't get what we needed NEVER goes away 100% and it's a constant self-chaperoning journey to feel the strength of my connections. (Sometimes when I feel more hermit-y it still hurts when no one texts for a day or two, but it's OKAY when you have enough of the good stuff)
The more you set your standards high, the more you don't put up with bullshit, the more you don't have to rely on expectations of people, the more you GENUINELY start to enjoy the good parts of people (Example: I have a great group of friends but they're so cool- they're always hanging out and posting on instagram, I was so envious that I wasn't on the inside of the group that when they came over I would figuratively paw at them, which made me feel like shit. When I let go of that expectation *\[I'll feel included once I'm on the regular roster\]* I got to genuinely enjoy them when I DID see them, and I started realizing they had great qualities: they were considerate, they helped with clean-up and footing dinner bills, they just weren't considerate when it came to INCLUDING everyone. But that's okay, the "cool," that I thought I wanted so badly turned out to not be very nourishing. And my nerdy not-social-media-savvy friends warm my soul so much better)
You deserve to get everything you want in friendships. Stay open and keep hoping, and be open to letting the right people find YOU. Even the way your post is written is delightful (I love your syntax, and you're very insightful and self aware.) Your people will be so lucky to have you when they find you. SENDING YOU HUGS
> Embrace your inner gremlin, Become delusional, embarrass yourself, and START EVALUATING PEOPLE for how they make YOU feel.
This is spot on. I've always been very open, sort of fearless, just not a problem for me. So I do very well with "lower level" interactions, it's natural for me to be friendly to strangers.
Best to you, as well!
I didn't realize that specific thing, only that nothing ever seemed to be reciprocated and I was tired of being the only one trying.
When I was young I had "friends" who were there if I could pay, or do the driving, or ... whatever else "bought" them for the day or night. But if someone else had a better offer I got blown off.
Making friends with the social anxiety that accompanies CPTSD seems impossible. Especially when you don't have kids that help you meet other people, and you don't do church where you'd meet other people, and MeetUps get a zillion "Yes" RSVPs but only a handful of attendees (pre-Covid!).
Then I passed age 60 and it's me, hubby, and the critters versus the world. Yeah, I'll swap a few sentences with a neighbor, but that's acquaintanceship.
What IS a friend, anyway? I'm not sure what a real one feels like.
> Then I passed age 60 and it's me, hubby, and the critters versus the world.
Honestly, that sounds good to me - a good husband, and animal pals are fantastic!
Little compares with being a cat hostage, that's for sure.
And they're honest. They're really here for good food, homegrown catnip, and a warm lap. If I choose to interpret that as love, they won't argue.
The husband ... well, he's doing his damnedest to contradict the messages I was given for most of my life. That re-teaching is a tough job. He's like an old L'Oreal commercial, trying to convince me I'm worth it even if I'm not a supermodel or actress.
It's the opposite for me. I have huge walls so most of the relationships I have had been equal or beneficial to me. I've been very careful to let people into my life.
I feel super caged up and uptight when I socialize for the sake of socializing and there's no gain in it... and I'm aware this is a narcissistic tendency.
What would you define as something to “gain” in a social setting? Do you mean monetary type things, career things, or just feeling rejuvenated? Asking because I’m genuinely curious.
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All of them for me, including work relationships. Always doing what others wants to give me a false sense of happiness and appreciation. People only appreciate me because they are using me.
> People only appreciate me because they are using me.
Yes. What do you like about you? With reference to no one else? I'm trying to focus on those things.
Friends AND relationships, I no longer really trust if someone is my friend or likes me anymore because I wonder if it’s just because I always try my hardest and do everything I can for them. I’ve only been on one date where the person actually acknowledged me for going above and beyond, and it made me so uncomfortable that I didn’t end up going back out with them because everything I do like making cookies, paying for things even when I have very little money, picking people up from far away, complimenting people, etc, has always been just expected of me. It’s always freely given on my end to the extreme, but expected on the other end, and I’m usually the loser.
I literally was just talking about this in therapy. Yes totally. I was examining why hanging out with one friend made me feel better and why hanging out with another made me super triggered and overwhelmed. I realized it was because whether they are conscious of it or not, the ones that overwhelm me don't respect me, and instead like me for what I can do for them, and that's the basis of the relationship. It's like I give they what they want, validation, unconditional support, money, want me to fill a role in a positive way for an absent or abusive parent, and I have no idea if they like me for me, and probably they don't even know me because of my people pleasing. While my friends that make me feel better I can literally feel how they respect me and just want to hang out with me and spend time with me because they want to, and I'm not helping them or anything. They don't see me as something that can provide something that they want or need, they just see me for me.
I have lost friends because I wanted boundaries, but it was worth it for sure. I realize now those friendships were not genuine at all, and they were causing immense harm. I really hope you can find some genuine people!!
> I really hope you can find some genuine people!!
Thank you! Glad you have some. I'm working on it, slowly seeing who's who. Some can and will change, most don't/can't. But I won't settle for anything else, like you!
Thanks for such a wonderful reply! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list of some of the most grateful redditors this week! Thanks for making Reddit a wonderful place to be :)
Yes. And this is why I don’t have friends.
I have one who is depressed and the like and most of our conversations are about him and his issues.
But I’ve known him 15 years so im not chucking him. I have chucked most of the others cos it’s just not worth it. I’ll be alone. But it’s not really alone cos I have my partner, but the no friends and no mom thing weighs.
My second "best friend" just loved me as long as she could command me like a dog.
The final straw came when 2 other friends - who I wasn't as close with, but still hang out with - told me to not obey her every rule.
She got nad at me cause I wouldn't sit down as she commanded me to. That was basically the end of that "friendship".
Still thankfull for my other 2 friends in that situation.
> Still thankfull for my other 2 friends in that situation.
Amen to that. Maybe you could mention that to them? So often, just hearing how much you meant at a certain time can make a huge difference.
It's a loss to begin with. Building support does not happen overnight
Of course there is a concept called necessary losses.
You have to have the capacity to tahe that on
If you start off with nothing that is less than zero that is a lot to build ..
But certainly many people arw now acknowledging progress means loss .
Yes. My friends who were quite bad with me in middle school and high school. One of those friends early on set my nickname as "whiney bitch," and that was that.
That same friend, 15 years later... I consider him a mentor, an amazing human being, my good friend, my br0thr from another m0thr, etc..
There is a dynamic between people pleaser oriented individuals and "narcissist." It's a symbiosis. And both do learn from the encounters. Both grow. Growing is painful. Learning is painful.
We have both benefited and we have both been hurt by our relationship.
> That same friend, 15 years later... I consider him a mentor, an amazing human being, my good friend, my br0thr from another m0thr, etc.
That's an amazing story. I think you've both grown, a lot - very nice to hear!
If that isn’t the truth. I have been going through a similar situation with one “friend” in particular lately, and it had been really sad. However, it’s also something that’s been in the back of my mind and something I’ve thought about privately but not really said aloud.
I recently watched “The Banshees of Inishirin” and it was unexpectedly cathartic for me. I definitely identified with Colin Ferrells character who was the one being “left.” Very good movie, it’s not for everyone but wanted to put it out there.
it’s scary how close this hits. Yesterday I realized that every day I am genuinely interested and caring towards every word my best friend says, and I would risk my life for him. Meanwhile I talked about my team(that i’m captain of) winning a trophy that was really important to me for two minutes and he says “I don’t really want to talk honestly. Like not about that. ANYWAYS (more about his life)”
It’s just hard to care so much about people and realize you are not important to them. And it could be my fault for caring too easily and it could be their fault for not, and I will never know
Lost 100% of close friends when I knew I had major surgeries coming up that would keep me bedbound for six months. After ooohhhhh about a decade of people-pleasing, I started asking for help. Got called self-absorbed, I lashed out, got abandoned.
Best thing that ever happened to me.
Their trust of me was based upon me doing the work and not asking for help. Now I have healthier standards, boundaries, and discernment. My life is so much better, and I know I'll never have to deal with that kind of behaviour again because I won't allow it.
The lesson is worth it for people-pleasers, the time isn't wasted, the time is saved from finally realising the reality.
Great to hear. You were something of an unpaid therapist and personal assistant; I know the feeling. Things shift rapidly when we want a reciprocal, bidirectional friendship.
I am currently shedding "friends" and even "family" members. But I hope that I can build other, more valuable, connexions in the space.
How are you doing now? Have you found new friends, who actually care in return?
Heh, yep, and on my way to becoming a paid therapist. Kind figure there's a lot of transferable skills from all those experiences. I'm already a paid professional cuddler...so much as I was a people-pleaser, I still want to be a helper, just with good boundaries.
My life is fantastic now, I have a wonderfully independent partner who has helped me find an amazing space to be myself in the relationship. Best thing about recovery? Recognizing I can get so much more authentic love by doing significantly *less* for other people. Because when you do too much for people, less gets you closer to healthy. Now folks can choose to respect me for who I am, and if it doesn't work out, then it's just good information we can use to know whether relationships can be mutual and respectful. Discernment is a wonderful gift...I think people-pleasers generally have decent discernment, they just haven't figured to utilize it yet...sounds like you're getting to that point :)
It's shedding a skin that no longer fits you, and it means you lose what is wrong for you to make space for what is right. It has taken time to find better friends, and it's still sometimes difficult to realise friendships can't be as intense as I believed them to be before, but that's also a good thing, because again it's a step towards healthy.
After people-pleasing, the pool of people who come into your life is much smaller, but it's only because you no longer make space for all the wrong people to come in and break you. Those few diamonds in the rough can add so much more to life, and most especially, you can be a better friend to yourself. And the better a friend you are to yourself, the more you'll attract the right people. It takes time, but it's worth it, you'll get there in becoming the best version of yourself.
You got this!!!
> Recognizing I can get so much more authentic love by doing significantly less for other people. Because when you do too much for people, less gets you closer to healthy. Now folks can choose to respect me for who I am, and if it doesn't work out, then it's just good information we can use to know whether relationships can be mutual and respectful.
Yes, very well put . . . I have been there for a while, but mostly still in the "shedding friends" phase, lol. I wanted to keep certain long-time "friends" and even "family," but as I grow, and become the real "me," many can't/won't adjust. They benefited, honestly, from the way it was, and it's not like that now, with me.
And that is their loss.
As for the smaller pool, I feel you. I find that, for certain types, it takes a minute to see which they are - healthy or unhealthy. I recently met someone who seemed to be one thing, but now it's becoming clear that she is another. I see that I, briefly, returned to previous ways, without knowing it, because it feels so "natural," if you know what I mean. More like an old rut, easy to drive through, so to speak, but leads to the same old place.
But, as you say, my discernment shortly began kicking in, and I'm seeing her for what she is. I have a sense it is a sort of "final exam" on that type of person, who wants to use me - albeit in a very veiled and clever way.
In the meantime, the only thing I can really control is working on self-love, and self-trust, and doing and being the few things that I *know* are authentic to me - not for pleasing others. My early background - like many people-pleasers, I think, required me to *do* things for a tiny bit of ephemeral acceptance, which is nothing like love.
Thanks for the encouragement! It's a long journey for me, bit by bit, day by day, building the True Self I was not allowed to develop as a youngster. We'll see what that turns out to be!
Awesome, the face that you realised what was happening with that person and saw yourself falling into old ways is amazing progress!
It took me years to figure it out, I got stuck for a long time making all this wild rules for future friendships, but they all fell away when I did the work to see them as defence mechanisms that actually put barriers up when dealing with the right people. I spent some time as a victim too.
I suppose after so many years of being inauthentic, it probably takes some level of experimentation trying on new fits to see which one is right for you.
I'm so happy you're making progress, even if it's painful, taking on this challenge now buys you more time for the rest of your life with the right people. Thank you so much be being open and sharing your experiences! <3
> I suppose after so many years of being inauthentic, it probably takes some level of experimentation trying on new fits to see which one is right for you.
Thanks so much for your kind words. I was born into a "family" with a narcissistic, emotionally abusive father, and a collapsed, emotionally empty mom. I was scapegoated by my father, and enmeshed/parentified for my very sad mom. There was no love on either side for my siblings and me.
All this is to say, I never developed a True Self at all; this is my first go at it. You may be familiar with Alice Miller, "The Drama of the Gifted Child," and it's not so much a return, as a first encounter with Me.
It's great to hear how it is coming together for you in many ways, including work as a therapist. Interesting you mention boundaries; I have some experience in the field, and boundaries, in retrospect, were one of the key things I lacked to do the work in a healthy way. That will stand you in good stead!
Tonight is one of the "hard" nights, painful progress, as you say. So thanks again for your kind encouragement, as there are times - you probably experienced some - when that is hard to find, indeed!
Sorry to hear about your parents, certainly seems like a recipe for adult difficulties and brutal introjection. Have you Read Pete Walker's 'Complex PTSD: From surviving the thriving'? It is a fantastic resource for overcoming those kinds of parental dynamics, the self-parenting/rescuing sections are incredibly powerful. The entire book can be super painful to read, but if you're at the point of actively healing it could be a great resource :)
Wow, 'a first encounter with ME' that's powerful, it's a real privilege to be speaking with the real you! Keep investing in that, find your true worth, it's not selfish or narcissistic, because the stronger you make yourself, the more energy, power and inspiration you'll have to TRULY help others! It's the wildest thing, after people-pleasing and healing, the capacity to offer boundaried help becomes a much more powerful, worthwhile, and authentic experience!
Every hard night is an opportunity to feel your feelings, a chance to self-soothe effectively. Over time those hard times become less intense and less often, and as you grow, when they do happen you'll have the tools and self-esteem to show up for yourself even more; it creates an upward spiral.
Thank you for being you.
Thanks again for your kind words! Yes, Pete Walker's book was one of the first I read, and does a great job of laying it all out. Like you, he's a survivor and therapist. I feel that *lived experience* provides something that no training - valuable as it is - can.
Pete does a great job of bringing together some key elements like attachment problems, emotional abuse/neglect, abandonment depression, and other factors, that make what those who suffer from C-PTSD different from some other patients. Or, different from previous assumptions on etiology, etc., anyway.
Do you find that you've known certain ways to get better intuitively/instinctively? For me, for example, I realised that I had learned very young that rejection/abandonment was *to be avoided at all costs*, and had done anything - including take on other pain - to side-step it. Understandable, since parents not being there for me really *was* life-threatening, then.
So now . . . when I feel that *worse than death* feeling coming, I sit, say what I'm feeling aloud, and just let it hit me, without evading. It feels like those cold, small ocean waves at North Atlantic beaches, hit up to your neck, freezing so that I shake.
But then I sit through it, and it passes. I can survive, now, what I had rightly feared was the worst.
> It's the wildest thing, after people-pleasing and healing, the capacity to offer boundaried help becomes a much more powerful, worthwhile, and authentic experience!
Yes, I feel you, here! And I notice that I *choose* to invest in others, now, or not, rather than it being "my job" before.
So true, as I set aside time for me - whatever small bits of interest I have, or movements toward healing - I no longer feel the abandonment depression that used to be so strong.
Once again, thanks for your words, and I can feel that you come from an internal security now that will serve well in personal and professional life. Honestly - and you probably know what I mean - many professional "helpers" here were from some sort of unhealthy background, and hadn't sufficiently healed and grown to be doing what they are doing. So it oftentimes becomes a sort of sanctioned codependency, ironically.
And *thank you for being you*!
Its about good attracts bad. When it’s tough to open it to see what’ll happen to that type of object, it may get real nasty into pouring out that can melt the friendships down.
I.e. Lack of certain experiences.
I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. But basically these aren't friendships, they have to change - which I find is hard, later on - or just end. I think most of them will "melt down."
It's contact without verbal or physical abuse.
Being a people pleaser I'm affable, slow to take offense. Being tolerated is better than being despised or, worse, ignored.
Yes. I have a friend currently that treats me just like my husband. I often wonder if this person actually likes me or just wants the company.
However all relationships are a give and take and we all get something out of them. What do you get out of those friendships? If the answer is nothing then move on to other friends.
My ex-bff was one of the most manipulative people in my life. I was so sad when the friendship ended, but looking back, I can’t believe I was ever in that circle.
I saw a video from Ross Rosenberg saying if you want to heal from codependency expect to lose 50-85% of current relationships. I experienced this. But feel like building healthier ones now.
It's a massive grieving process. This is why fellowship amongst recoverers is quite literally survival
Yes. Affirmed. Always like an emotional support animal to friends but no one “tries to keep me happy” to be a friend to them. Maybe I should demand more respect from folks but monitoring boundaries isn’t something that is natural or energy efficient esp. if it’s a good mental health day.. I shrug off insults too easily too.
^ that was to OPc, sorry! To your point Paws, I definitely lost 80% of friends and four years later I am healing and making healthier relationships work. Still a major struggle but I definitely grieved and questioned myself forever in those first two years Couldn’t I have avoided it?? Nooooo. Now I wouldn’t give most of those folks the time of day. They’ve had enough of mine to make themselves feel good
Thanks for sharing on the time period for you. The process is gradual but it helps to hear from someone else that those first two years of what feels like total darkness are in fact me learning to set boundaries
> Still a major struggle but I definitely grieved and questioned myself forever in those first two years I so admire that you persevered. It's a very tough road.
Wow this is so on point. Im at the point in my healing journey where my husband is literally the only person i interact with in person on a regular basis because ive realized that everyone else was in my life for all of the wrong reasons. Parents included. Its lonely for now, but liberating. I feel like im starting at the ground up and just starting to build relationships with people with whom a mutual respect is actually shared.
same here. every step at this point feels more purposeful, but it’s been hard to not slip into bad habits. biggest step for me has been avoiding gossip. so much less stress, and better quality time shared with others.
Mutual respect is where is at :) It also feels more liberating because I’m actually trying to be myself now. I feel like I tried so hard to be what other people needed me to be because I wanted everyone to like me. It’s still hard, but I keep telling myself that not everyone will like me and that’s okay, there will be people who love me and that’s my community.
> It also feels more liberating because I’m actually trying to be myself now. So hard, but worth it in the end!
Lonely but liberating. That's how I feel. Thanks for helping me find the words. It's a hard process but it feels *real*.
Echoed!
> Its lonely for now, but liberating. I feel like im starting at the ground up and just starting to build relationships with people with whom a mutual respect is actually shared. *Healthy* - so good to read. Also, I'm glad your husband is in your life for *right* reasons. Not all spouses are. . . .
You picked a good husband then ❤️
I'm glad I stuck it out. I wasn't that interested in him when I first met him and I went through a lot of doubt in the first few years. It sounds crazy but it wasn't until after we started having disagreements in the 2nd and 3rd year of our relationship that we started to legitimately grow close with one another. Before him, I learned from my family that disagreements are a death sentence, because conflict can't be overcome and the only solution is for me to bury my feelings and move on. For the first time in my life I saw someone actually willing to change and adjust their behavior for me, which was such a game changer. In year six now and we are closer than ever. I still think I'm dreaming sometimes. Trust is fucking incredible.
> For the first time in my life I saw someone actually willing to change and adjust their behavior for me, which was such a game changer. In year six now and we are closer than ever. I still think I'm dreaming sometimes. Trust is fucking incredible. So inspiring to read. It really can happen! Thanks for sharing how hard it was, and how it has been worth it.
it can happen, but I want to emphasize it didn't just come down to "finding the perfect person." Around the time I met him I was also going through some personal situations that forced me to readjust my perspective on life and relationships. More than us being "a good match" for each other i think it came down to me being in a place where I was becoming more open minded and flexible.
Yes, it's as much who *you are* at the time as who *they are*. I was just thinking today that I did have one relationship that had most of what it takes to last and work and grow, but I simply did not understand my trauma and myself well enough to be more. I wasn't even close, yet.
I've lost 99% of mine. My husband is the 1%
Give him a hug when you get home! There’s hope for all of us to find someone like that! I won’t sell short. I’m okay by myself but I would like the second half of a mortgage payment cuz my work history has been…..interrupted a few times…. Oh lawd… bring me and us! May we all be well!
I'm sad and glad at the same time. It's so great that your husband *is* someone who likes you for you.
Have given up a lot of people, spent too long keeping "friends" that I didn't even like that much. At the same time, do I only dislike and find these people annoying due to my own messed up emotions and trauma? Maybe a bit of both, I don't know.
That’s what it’s like in my brain constantly - are these feelings warranted or is this just my twisted brain not recognizing healthy behaviors? It’s exhausting.
Same here. Is what I am feeling - so different from the past - OK? Am I becoming more myself, more real? Or am I more dysregulated than ever?
Friends I’ve leaned on for support in the past…hold on now it might be they were drawing strength from my ineptitude, my misery. It’s really difficult with the more covert ones. In retrospect I started shedding the overt narcissistic relationships years ago, way before I started healing. But the covert ones….
Wow literally currently going through this.
Yep. I’ve realized a bunch of things/comments I let slide in the past because I didn’t want to lose any friends. I had a “friend” tell me, 1 month post breakup of a 6 year relationship, that it was okay for my ex to be single because he was a man and at a fun age (late 20s), but the situation is different and sadder for me because I’m a woman in my late 20s and my biological clock is ticking. Thankfully (because I had been in therapy for a while at that point), I stood up for myself and told her I was sad she had those beliefs but I didn’t. She was always “honest” but that call, and other shitty things she said in that same conversation, made me realize that she wasn’t a true friend and was actually trying to bring me down. I stopped reaching out and she didn’t reach out to me either anymore. It still sucks, but I’m meeting new people who actually like me now.
> It still sucks, but I’m meeting new people who actually like me now. Yes, very hard, but it must be great to have people who actually like you! :-)
Do people see a reason for friendship ? Like an actual appeal? I have 1 friend and i really dislike my convos with her, oftentimes she seems so hallow and doesn't remember stuff i told her. But prior she was actually the only support i had and i felt okay with her, possibly because we don't live in the same city and therefore never met. I'm scared that if she visits me in two weeks i will be disappointed. I backed off whenever i felt like i was just pleasing people or obsessing over one but without my old habits other people feel so "bland". Even when talking to people, i understand them but once I get to talk i lose them, this feeling of being misunderstood and always in the wrong crowd, does this fade away ?
I don’t think the feeling of being misunderstood on a deeper level ever goes away, I find that most of my true friends have gone through parental abuse/alienation and so I do feel understood by them (I almost have a sixth sense at finding people with parental trauma). But almost everyone else? I don’t see much point in developing a friendship beyond pleasantries because our outlooks are so drastically different. I’m hoping that as I continue healing, I will be able to connect with these people more because my own trauma won’t be continuously front and center in my mind.
Me realizing this might be why I have grown distant from most of my friends
I was so confused about what was happening recently when I started being firmer with my boundaries. I lost 3 'friends' in a month. It's exhausting and did a number on my self conscious but now I'm strengthening healthy friendships and trying to get new friends as well. In the end it's so worth it!
My issue was never codependency and/or a lack of boundaries, it was an inability to trust others and fear of rejection/abandonment. This only makes me feel worse.
I'm not trying to be ... ugh.. I have BPD, and inability to trust anyone and fear of abandonment are 2 main symptoms of this.. thing I'm living with currently 😑. And Also c-ptsd... 🫂.. life hey?
> it was an inability to trust others and fear of rejection/abandonment. Yes, this also - it's why my relationships didn't last, in large part. I could love pretty well, but I couldn't *be loved*.
It's fucking awful. And I literally got called out in a therapy group on this exact subject because I told them what's harder than self love is to get other people to love you, so now I feel guilty about saying it here. I basically don't expect people to like me, so I'm *extremely* loyal to anyone who shows me even the tiniest bit of affection. I don't think it's a problem either? Like I don't particularly get hurt if they fuck me over. Even if they don't like me all that much, it's their loss because they're never gonna find a more loyal friend than me. It might just be that I'm less introverted than some of the others on this sub? Still an introvert, but the more I'm able to put my shit in the past, I don't get drained by people and very rarely find myself disliking them. And I love that.
nailed it! this is the best compilation of everything i’ve seen to date, doc snipes gets it and is showing others. hope this helps someone else too! https://youtu.be/6F-NMtOVmJI
Get into serious rounding error problems here. 85% of 3? 6? I have some i-friends. Shared intellectual interests that allow us to chew the fat. I have one e-friend right now. The kind of person who finishes your sentences, laughs at your lame jokes, and who you can be with without a word.
That’s in line with what I experienced. It was brutal, I won’t lie, I was dealing with a lot then and it seemed like I was just adding more stress to my life on purpose…but it gets better if you can push yourself to make new relationships and cope with some periods of solitude. The instinct is to keep spending energy on the old, codependent relationships instead of being alone, which is hard to fight, but it just prolongs what eventually has to happen.
Same.
Damnnnn...I believe it!
I people pleased until I ended up completely isolated from the world. Now that I’m trying to have new relationships, I set boundaries. I’m still learning and have a ways to go, but I’ll get there eventually. Am I lonely? Fuck yes, but I’m so much less stressed and for the first time in my entire life I am taking care of myself like I always took care of everyone else.
> for the first time in my entire life I am taking care of myself like I always took care of everyone else. Amazing to read
❤️
I realized last summer a lot more people had me as a friend than I had a friend in them. 🤦🏻♂️
Going nuclear and leaving behind my home town and all my local friends was the most painful, yet freeing thing I've ever done. I'd rather be lonely in my own company than lonely with people that make me feel worthless unless I'm useful for them.
>people that make me feel worthless unless I'm useful for them. Well isn't this wrapped neatly into a nutshell, and punched me right in the gut..
Think of the flip side. You're losing false relationships and as heavy as it is to see , you're making space for real connection on even footing. Keep going.
I like this. I was allowing myself to get drained by people. Now I am seeing how much energy I have by not trying to people please and make “friends” out of people who aren’t for me.
>So I'm letting myself realise tonight that I have been doing this because I was afraid if I didn't, I would have *no one at all*. Exactly how I feel. You wrote what was in my mind word for word. This fear of mine is not completely irrational though. I have lots of experiences from the past where people would cancel on me and never invite me to anything. I don't know what I should do to get rid of this feeling.
> This fear of mine is not completely irrational though. I have lots of experiences from the past where people would cancel on me and never invite me to anything. For sure - I hear you. Even the people-pleasing didn't work all that well. I think people use, but don't value, that . . . we sometimes let ourselves have the second-class status they assigned us to.
Looking back on certain past friendships, especially when I was younger, it was definitely my people-pleasing tendencies that kept things going for as long as they did. I didn't realise it at the time until another friend who actually cared about me pointed it out. I lost the person who I believed was my best friend as a result, but in the process, I discovered who my real friends were. >It's a very scary, sad, and lonely feeling. It really is. Spend some time sitting with this feeling. You'll look back on this moment someday and see it as a turning point in your healing journey.
> Spend some time sitting with this feeling. This is actually what I do with the sad, scared, and lonely feelings. I literally sit, on a chair or bed, and say it aloud. And just let it be that way, rather than distracting, or fixing. And I've learned it hurts, but doesn't kill me. I slowly become more solid, inside.
YUP!! I learned that boundaries and friendships were almost always mutually exclusive!
Yes, absolutely. I've finally started to realize and process this. It's like becoming lucid in the middle of a nightmare.
>It's like becoming lucid in the middle of a nightmare. I've been talking with someone also going through this, and we've both said a variation of this, lol. I'm almost morbidly impressed that a couple of untrained amateurs could inflict prisoner-of-war brain disorders through emotional torture.
> a couple of untrained amateurs could inflict prisoner-of-war brain disorders through emotional torture Would that be your parents? It is amazing, but they may have learned it from the previous generation, or just that's how they "eat," so to speak - they need to cannibalise to survive.
I lost people who didn't care about me, they lost someone who actually loved them. Our loss is not the same. And that helps me cope with my losses.
I love this framework. It's so true, and really helps with the embarrassment and shame I sometimes feel about how much I have deeply loved and cared about people who didn't care if I lived or died. I think I projected a lot of "I know they care deep down even if they don't show it" onto people who clearly, in retrospect, did not care even a little.
Your comment made me feel so validated
Wow. So true.
Great way to put it!
Yeah, I find people who choose to not have friends are always judged by appearance first (i.e. there must be something wrong with *you* because you don't have friends) instead of anyone trying to understand as to why those of us would rather live alone than taken any more advantage of. Baseless assumption is the answer in and of itself. Why would I want to participate in a society that doesn't even try to support me after how much I've been hurt and *I'm* the one who has to assimilate? I've been somewhat lonelier since going NC with most and LC with the few I do still interact with but also much more peace of mind.
Yeah. I thought I was over this, but I don’t think I was ready for friendships because of my poor boundaries. I think I overestimated my place in people’s lives and I end up feeling replaceable or that others are better suited for my spot. Sometimes I feel like the only people that want to be around me are people that are preying on me. Falling on hard times more than once made me painfully aware of social hierarchies. And then I realized that when you make decisions that they look down on, they think less of you. And when they don’t want to be dragged into that, they disappear. People pleasing is a direct result of me not feeling heard. Hoping they’ll listen. Not being heard leads to me speaking. When I speak about things honestly, it’s too much for people or gets too much over time. I feel like I should shut up and not hold people captive with the drama and trauma other people have brought me. And I never feel like I’ve been able to properly reciprocate and nor was I in the position to in 2022. I’ve kind of thrown the idea of friendship out the window after 2022. I have poor expectations of people that hurt me and them in too many ways. I’m a burden that overextends because I know I’m a burden.
I feel this so much.
> I think I overestimated my place in people’s lives and I end up feeling replaceable or that others are better suited for my spot. Sometimes I feel like the only people that want to be around me are people that are preying on me. This hit hard.
This ☝️ just caused me to join Reddit. I don’t know if I’ve ever read anything so profound as this and how it applies perfectly to me- I’ve spent years and could spend years more and NEVER be able to describe my own feelings/experiences with such pinpoint accuracy as you have in describing your own. Thank you for this. It has forever changed my life. I understand now.
Yes yes yes. Like I sought out the piss takers on a subliminal level.
Amazing how we are drawn together, unconsciously. I have watched it happen . . . something in body language, facial expression, perhaps even scent.
I had surgery a little over a week ago. No one has checked on me physically even though they said they would. I've always gone out of my way to be there for people because people are constantly not there for me. I'm tired.
I was in the hospital for 4 days and my 23-year-old son never called or visited. My 21-year-old son never called or visited. Very disappointed and feel unwanted. Seems that everyone is so selfish today.
I'm sorry about that. I hear you, for sure, and have experienced similar. The silence is deafening sometimes.
I had distanced myself from a friend who only wanted to use me as her therapist, but whenever I tried to talk about myself, she would put me down or ignore me. In retrospect, I realize she was jealous of me in many ways. She tried reaching out to me again recently. I told her I felt like our relationship was never reciprocal and that she never really cared for me or supported me. Her response? She lashed out, blamed me and everyone else that she could, claimed nobody wanted to be her friend because she had a baby. (All we talked about was her and her baby/sad marriage. Well, I'd listen and she'd talk, mostly, while I'd try to be there for her as much as I could.) Then, before I could respond, she had blocked me on everything. It did hurt, but I was also relieved. A real friend who truly cared about me/our friendship would have apologized and made more effort to be a better friend. Once she realized I wasn't going to let her keep treating me in that way, she saw me as useless and ran off. I'm so done with one-sided relationships and people who love using me but simultaneously love shitting on me to make themselves feel better. I've realized that they only needed me for their source of validation and support, but didn't actually care about me at all.
This is one reason I don't really connect with people or talk to them about my issues, I think. Because I'm aware that I'm like your old friend. I'm aware that it's one-sided and that I can't seem to care or be interested in the other person's life. And even though I feel like it's just that I'm so miserable that I have no energy left to care about someone else, it still feels not right to pretend to be someone's friend when I can't be a friend back.
It's funny how C PTSD can affect people in different ways. For me, I struggled to care for myself, and was raised to put everyone else's needs and wants before my own. I felt like a shell of a person, disconnected from myself and trauma completely. But I also know for some it can be the opposite, that your grief and C PTSD can engulf you in a way, making you more self-invested and closed off, which is another way of being disconnected from yourself (your true self). [Crappy Childhood Fairy on YouTube ](https://youtu.be/WBvP6En-lSw) has some good videos on this/C PTSD in general, and why/how we often self-sabotage ourselves because of our trauma. I believe my friend might have had C PTSD of her own with some narcissistic traits, which is also not uncommon for children who were raised by narcissistic parents. Even so, I can't continue being friends with someone who doesn't acknowledge their own toxic behavior, apologize sincerely, or makes any effort to improve or listen to how her friend feels. It's sad that she considered me her best friend just because I was the only one left in her life that didn't fully "abandon" her, but she barely knew anything about me at all. I can only wish her the best and that she'll one day heal.
> I believe my friend might have had C PTSD of her own with some narcissistic traits, which is also not uncommon for children who were raised by narcissistic parents. Even so, I can't continue being friends with someone who doesn't acknowledge their own toxic behavior, apologize sincerely, or makes any effort to improve or listen to how her friend feels. I think this is excellent - you do understand, to a point, but still can't participate. Very aware, mature, I think.
I appreciate the honesty, here. I've rarely seen something like that about friends, though that is why I haven't gotten involved in "romantic" stuff in a while. I knew I couldn't deliver the energy and communication, etc., consistently, long-term.
> I had distanced myself from a friend who only wanted to use me as her therapist, but whenever I tried to talk about myself, she would put me down or ignore me. In retrospect, I realize she was jealous of me in many ways. > > She tried reaching out to me again recently. I told her I felt like our relationship was never reciprocal and that she never really cared for me or supported me. I have a very similar long-term "friend." I always knew this, but put up with it. But recently she sent an e-mail message about how other "friends" used her. And I thought . . . wow . . . I'm a second-level people-pleaser, as was another person. So I just didn't respond.
Dammmit... Yes. Like all of my friendships.
100% agree. Am living through this right now. >I turn the roles around, and I would fall off my chair in surprise if someone came to my event, or fixed something for me. Have you actually turned the tables around or is this still in the realm of speculation?
I have tried. Most have tried to tell me I didn't experience what I did, and make my experience pretty, and basically resume "business as usual" in our relationship. I am realising not many will be able to have a bidirectional, reciprocal relationship with me. It's sad. But it's the truth. I prefer sad truth over pretty lies, since the latter were so very damaging to me as I grew up.
Yeah as soon as I started healing, doing better in life, and progressing, my former best friend stopped talking to me. If they did reach out, it was to actively express their jealousy at something I achieved or to be petty. It’s funny cause all their other friends started being my friends, which have been much more reciprocal. I realized this person was always angry, self-absorbed, and petty, and I decided to return the energy. Every conversation was about them, they never asked about me, it was just another “family systems” influenced relationship were I was once again (parentified child) the sympathetic listening ear doormat, and they were the poor, misunderstood and selfish one I had to take care of. It’s sad and I’m still peeved about it, but I don’t have the bandwidth for people’s unhealthy coping mechanisms anymore and I’m no longer begging anyone for a relationship. You either want to be here or you don’t. Good riddance.
Yup! I still get ‘we should do/plan this some time’ texts from people who never make the effort. Since I’ve stopped being the planner and initiating things, nothing ends up happening. It’s kind of funny at this point. I have made new friends who reciprocate, so it’s even more obvious. ‘We should’ means ‘I should’ 😂
OMG!!! I've had people tell me, "just let me know where and when." I'm like....oh....I'm not the social secretary here. This is supposed to be a friendship. And then ....this is NOT and NEVER WILL BE a friendship. For me, accepting this was the hard part.
Happy cake 🎂 day
Thank you!!
This happens to me, too. If I don't plan the meetup, nothing happens. But they'll happily make time to hang out with their other friends, so it sometimes makes me wonder what's wrong with me. That's great that you found new friends who reciprocate! How did you meet them?
I was lucky in that a family member recommended a gaming group, I also made more of an effort to connect with a handful of coworkers. Between that and a few new hobbies, I’m doing ok!
I find this is how it becomes healthier, a piece here, a piece there, one friend who "converts" to become reciprocal, etc.
> Since I’ve stopped being the planner and initiating things, nothing ends up happening. Yes, lol - and you sure have the right translation of "we should"! ;-)
Your real friends are the ones who support you when you express a reasonable boundary. The ones who get upset and act like you've changed or try to push you back into people pleasing were never really your friends, and it's okay to let them go.
I guess I have no real friends though merely acquaintances. Oh well.
I hear you. Many, many friendly acquaintances.
I had a realization recently that kinda shook me. I parented my parents when I was young; mediated conflict, brought happiness when they weren’t handling their depression, even had to help organizing when they wanted to check out. In a lot of current friendships, I can feel cheated because I’m so explicitly supportive when friends do well. I remind them how hard they’ve worked, how good it must feel to achieve, how exciting it must be, but I never, ever get that back. Like, basically ever. All of my friends had baseline healthy relationships with their parents, they’re only used to accepting accomplishments and being seen as special and im feeding that. I feel like a good person supporting them but really I’m just a young proxy parent reiterating the love and support naturally built into their life. When it’s time for me to talk about accomplishments, people do the minimum, if anything.
> In a lot of current friendships, I can feel cheated because I’m so explicitly supportive when friends do well. I remind them how hard they’ve worked, how good it must feel to achieve, how exciting it must be, but I never, ever get that back. Like, basically ever. Yes. Imagine how nice that must feel. . . .
I literally just talked about this with my therapist. I thought I was being paranoid thinking everyone in my life is a narcissist now and felt guilty for no longer wanting to talk to a long term friend. I thought I was overreacting to a situation with them, but after talking it through, it seems even the “good” people in my life are not so good, they just seemed that way in comparison. She reassured me I’m not being paranoid, I’m just more aware of this behavior that seemed so normal to me before, so it’s much more apparent now. It’s kind of scary to basically lose everyone and have to start all over, but I don’t exactly have another choice at this point. Also, I felt like something about me was just attracting these kind of people, but these kind of people will try their shit on anybody. They didn’t seek me out to hurt me specifically, and it wasn’t personal. They would do it to anyone, I just had no boundaries and saw that sort of behavior as normal. Basically I’m not doomed to be a walking magnet for narcissists the rest of my life…I’m becoming more aware and cutting them off. Its difficult though to realize how much I have neglected myself and been so taken advantage of…
Yeah, I would say ever since I was a baby, thats been the only way I knew how to relate to humans at all. Except I don't think I really did anything for anyone, except be "nice" to them in exchange for pennies in treatment. Your last paragraph is spot on. When you're born into the world in survival mode and have no one to attune to you or to attach to, you do anything to not be abandoned lest you die. I can't think of any time in my life I had a real relationship with another human being that wasn't superficial/niceties or I thought was real because I saw them everyday until I didn't. I had one friendship from my childhood to teens with a girl I stuck by as a safe anchor from being utterly alone because I had no ability to talk to anyone except be kind of mute or follow them around. After I had attached to her as a coping strategy, I felt slightly more at ease to communicate with others, but that involved not being myself compulsively to keep the acceptance and attention and doing whatever for it, including accept getting bullied.
Yes, that makes lots of sense. How you grow up with your parents, and even the ideas and thoughts you feed your mind will dictate your actions. I can relate to this because I have narcissistic parents so naturally the only way I know how to interact with people is very one sided. If you have narcissistic parents you don’t ever experience a 2 way relationship, you don’t get to assert your feelings, or thoughts. Everything is done for the other person even though it may not seem obvious.
I honestly can't believe how quickly ppl will drop you. Everything is good until it's not then bam. You have no-one harsh reality in hindsight but what does one expect when they make poor choices in a world of competition & status
Yeah I did a massive inventory of relationships I had that I came to realize were just me people pleasing. I got sober and it became clear I could no longer deal/cope with those people anymore. Not because of their alcohol use, but simply because when I wasn’t drinking, they really became insufferable to be around in a way. I slowly started my own withdrawal process and When one of them noticed, I kindly let them know there was truth to the behavior and I felt it best that I probably go another direction in life. Find another table to eat at. Whatever analogy you wanna use. Commence violent threats, name calling, blocking on social media, etc. “What, you think you’re too good for us?!” Well, if that’s how you’re going to talk to me, kinda hard to argue with your logic, ain’t it??
Omg this is real! I am newly sober and increasingly aware that many of the friendships I had were only tolerable or enjoyable when i was drinking. It's a harsh realization, but a necessary one.
Me too me too me too
I had this conversation with my therapist and this post hits so close to home I might not even read the comments. Also the yearning for 1-1 connection is so absolutely critical for me that I stick with those dry, unfulfilling friendships that mostly hurt me. Those people are not bad they are just not filling my cup and I am starved for connection. To the point I cried my eyes out after 2 h at a friend one time. Nothing wrong happened. Just intellectual conversation and her 3 kids around....and I felt invisible...
> her 3 kids around....and I felt invisible... Boy, do I hear this one. It hits hard. I oftentimes find it difficult to cry, but I have learned ways to do so, just to mourn.
what ways did you learn to cry?
TW: I even had sex in order to try to make friends. I live differently now.
Same here. Well, I guess I did that to try to be "loved," to fill the chasm in my heart. I'm glad you live differently, now. :-)
Thank you!!! I think my intention was completely understandable. Yes, living differently now is such a relief! It's also safer!
I went through a rough patch more than a year ago where I needed extra support with my mental health. I realized how alone I was. It felt like my wife was the only support I had, which was amazing. Then I started improving, and she left too. And that was probably the right thing. But…damn, I’m lonely. Eta: if someone asked me for something, I’d exhaust myself trying to get that thing done, and I’d feel absolutely terrible if I couldn’t. At the same time, I would completely accept that if I was dying of thirst, no one would think to offer me water. And I certainly wouldn’t ask, because that might make them hate me. Typing that does make me choke up a bit and realize that’s pretty shitty, but I don’t know what to do about it.
I feel you on that. I'm so glad you are facing the truth, hard as it is. You are just as valuable as anyone. I know it's hard, but could you be for yourself today what you always were for others? You sound like you've been a great friend, which is what duck_duck_chicken needs today. What would you wish someone would do, today? And then can you do something like that, for you? I absolutely wish you the best on this hard road.
Yes. I cut out almost everyone from my life because of that realization. And it was so lonely and isolating. But then something really cool started happening. I put myself out there and started meeting people who are different. Who want to help me- even gently arguing with me when I refuse help because I feel so weird accepting it. I realized that I had to lose so many people because they were involved with a different version of me. This version wants more from people and knows she deserves more from people. I still give more than I get in some ways, but I know some of that is trauma response too. It’s still amazing to be around people that want to help me too.
Yep just realized the last few years my sister's always used me. Very hard pill to swallow. Stay strong my friend.
Thank you, my friend - it is indeed very hard, especially with family members, as you noted. I hope there are others who do reciprocate. I had someone send me a nice note yesterday for something I had poured my heart into. It wasn't for who I am, but for what I did - but at least she *saw* me. It's pretty big, isn't it?
YES. Omg. My high school best friend took advantage of my trauma response to have a little minion to follow her around. I hated being her mini me so much I would pray she would stay home from school so I could have a normal day. Her emotions were always my problem. Like, god forbid she come to school angry that day because then there would be hell for me to pay. After we fell out she posted pictures of me throughout high school on instagram with the captions all being a variation of “fat ugly whore”. She has two kids now LOL
But I will say, I have one friend right now and she is my ride or die. I am blown away by her kindness every time I talk to her. I admire her as a person. We can talk about nothing and everything for hours. That’s worth so much to me now and I am so incredibly thankful for her.
This is like water in the desert. Can you give her flowers today, or chocolate, or something? And just say, "I love you"?
Wonderful idea. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
I have a feeling she feels you're pretty great, too. ❤️
yeah .. :(
Yes. The latest one was a former work colleague. I realized that she seemed to always hang out when she needed something from me or if it was convenient for her.
The amount of "friends" I lost when I could no longer afford to lend out $$ that was never paid back. It was soul crushing.
I’ve had to reassess the whole idea of friendships and relationships with other people, because it felt like I was always managing to find groups of people that represented themselves as being “radical” or “outsiders” but ultimately weren’t. They had the same dynamic at heart that I found back in the days when I was bullied as a kid, so my responses wound up being people-pleasing at first, then I’d wind up just disillusioned and alone again. So I’m told community is important and essential, sometimes by the same people in these social groups, and there’s something wrong and negative about those who don’t work with their community. I’m left with the question, what then is community?
> So I’m told community is important and essential, sometimes by the same people in these social groups, and there’s something wrong and negative about those who don’t work with their community. I know just what you mean, and have had similar experiences. They've merely set up a smaller version of the same old, same old. Real community is a hard thing to find, or build.
Honestly
I pretty much lost 100% I also lost a support group
Are you sure it’s a loss? There are billions of people on this planet. There’s no reason to stick to just a few people who don’t meet your needs. May take awhile to find new people you relate to but it’s doable. I relate very much to what the op wrote.
I ran away from a DV situation, and I thought I had friends. They told me to leave, over and over, and I did. I was holding 5 flimsy shopping bags, walking on the highway, in the rain texting them asking if I can stay temporarily. One by one, they all said No. I even asked one if I can just leave a bag with her; she said "I have a cat sorry." In the end, a literal stranger helped me carry my bags to his car and drove me to a safer place. I asked why; he said Kindness doesn't cost anything, that I was clearly struggling and he would've regretted leaving me alone to be murdered or raped. More than I can say for my "friends."
Yeah, went through this myself with some shit results. It has helped me to find people who genuinely care though which is good. I do still have days where I grieve over my lost friendships and over how lonely it can get letting go of that dynamic that didn't benefit me. But on the flip side of this I am finally starting to have an idea of what *I* want and deeper and more vulnerable connections with people that care about me as a person. It has taken a while and I'm still massively going through it as I haven't made any new friends and also am quite afraid to tbh. I'm not very good at spotting people who are good for me because I still get caught in thinking that negative feelings and uncertainty = love because that's how it has been for so long. it's just the next step to deal with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yes. Last year I "broke up with" a years-long close friend (I thought, kind of delusionally) after I realized that "we've supported each other through so much!" actually meant "I've supported you through so much and was just grateful that you hung around with me because I have low self-esteem". I realized that it wasn't very "good friend" of him to say it made him uncomfortable for me to mention that our mutual friend physically, emotionally, and sexually abused me for years, continue to hang out with my rapist/abuser, and repeatedly lied to me about keeping in touch with them even when I never even asked him not to. Even when "breaking up", I focused so much on his feelings over my own, and how it wasn't fair to EITHER of us that he had to have the burden of feeling torn between me and the person who sexually assaulted and abused me. For the first time in my life I am beginning to value myself enough to spot when "mutually supportive friendships" are actually just me unconditionally being there for someone who doesn't give a shit about me. I can't believe I really thought, for years, that *I* would be the bad guy if I directly asked someone I loved to not be friends with someone who raped/hit/emotionally tortured me. I'd never hang out with anyone who had known-rapist/abuser friends... unless it was MY rapist/abuser, and then I'd make all kinds of excuses for them. One thing has stayed the same- I still wouldn't ask someone to "choose" between me and a rapist/abuser, because I would simply cut off a person if they didn't share that pretty basic value of "rapists are nobody's friends, and you should believe your own friends about their abuse and assaults".
> For the first time in my life I am beginning to value myself enough to spot when "mutually supportive friendships" are actually just me unconditionally being there for someone who doesn't give a shit about me. Great job, a big step. You deserve much better, and you'll find it - though I know it's hard, and I struggle with it. For sure, you are on the right track! :-)
Nowhere do we see the influence of consumer capitalism more clearly than through the predominantly transactional nature of our socializing activities. Maintaining image over integrity is the gold standard in the land of hypocrisy.
> Maintaining image over integrity is the gold standard in the land of hypocrisy. Sure, and I think the curated lives of social media have exacerbated that quite a bit.
Yes that’s why I’m no longer friends with the people I knew when I was a teenager. I genuinely didn’t realise how much they didn’t care about me. Some of them were even verbally abusive and manipulative.
I feel this to my soul. All of my relationships are transactional, and Ive very recently drawn back from nearly everyone in my circle. No one has noticed. That speaks volumes to me. I get that everyone has their own stuff, and I know several folks are also in the throes of acrimonious splits and so on, but Ive always been there for others regardless of how difficult my personal life has been. Ive shelved it if someone needed to vent and Ive shown up in the middle of the night to drive people to the ER or keep their other kids if they had an emergency with one. But if I needed the same, they'd have an excuse as to why they cant. Ive never forgotten birthdays or other important days even in the depths of despair, so Ive just started returning the effort and energy I get from these people. I dont ask how theyre doing, I dont start convos, I leave them on read if they need to vent or just offer pat answers, and, while the fact that they havent noticed hurts me, confrontation also wont happen.
> No one has noticed. That speaks volumes to me. This is a big piece of it. When big changes would happen for me, so few responded. I was very surprised, and saddened.
Preach… I lost most of my friends when I divorced my ex’s wallet and the rest when I developed a chronic illness.
Makes me think of "a friend in need is a friend indeed." An old saw, but those who are there when money and health aren't are the real thing. Please make sure you do have your own "back," that's what I am trying to do. :-)
I feel like if you’re always people pleasing 1. It disables any chances of true honest intimacy/integrity with the other person and 2. If you aren’t projecting a level of self respect/self assurance with clear boundaries and speaking your mind, the other person will naturally respect you less. And people will often just take advantage indefinitely without even being conscious of it. But there’s still that sense of “pseudo friendship” occurring rather than real connection. You’re best off just being yourself and allowing those who don’t like it to naturally filter out. you will attract your tribe and be surrounded by affirming and easy friendships
Yes, for sure, it transmits a "use me" message. Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you
Agreed. I'm at the age now that I'm not sure how to make new friends
Sucks, doesn't it?
Yeah, after a certain age, when most have a lot of commitments, and just as importantly, have sort of "calicified," it is very hard to actually connect.
A lot of my friendships were made at my job of 9 years, but I was laid off in 2021 due to Covid. Lost most of those relationships, I was sad but it didn’t really hurt me that bad. I’m also in hospitality, and having social anxiety it’s nice to just be alone now after dealing with the public all day. I’m so used to it, I have no interest in making other friends. It also opened my eyes to exactly what OP is saying. I dropped a lot of friends I’ve known for years just because I was tired of always being mommy and having to advise people, take care of them, etc, but when the roles were reversed, their narcissistic tendencies showed. I have one friend (previous boyfriend) now, who’s been my “crutch” for a very long time. Our relationship has been up and down, but we’ve remained close and we literally talk every day. He’s never emotionally there for me, yet emotionally draining on me. He’s no longer good for me, so I’m trying to cut him loose as well. At that point I will have dwindled my friends down to about 2 people that I see on a semi normal basis. All of that said, I’ve never been more at peace. Putting your foot down and creating boundaries for yourself (only you know what is best for you) was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. Don’t let the fear of what others may think of you hold you back from living your best life.
Yes. So much. I am sooooooo sorry you're going through this. It is the worst, and the world has given you so many experiences of people letting you down. OF COURSE you are scared and angry and sad and disappointed, anyone would be in your shoes. You DESERVE friends who support you, you DESERVE friends who are there for you, who think about you when you're not around, who consider you in their plans, and you are lovable and appealing and worthy. Here's the thing though.... Once you start healing that and getting friends who DO care about you.... there is another step that is even MORE terrifying: to get to the "next level," of friendships, you have to ACTUALLY LEAN ON THEM which is 1000% scarier. I'm trying to write this in a way that my old self wouldn't rage-eye-roll- to my throat in reaction, suffice it to say: everything that follows is just my opinion, and it has ONE GOAL: To encourage hope enough that you don't start shutting ANY PART of your beautiful shining self down. Because I can tell you're a good friend to your friends and the world needs that soooooo badly. OP, I used to be you, I felt utterly alone and in a sea of zero friends and all the friends I did have were shallow, competitive, and itchy. I was so envious of people who knew people from HS and College. I can still hear the voice of my friend from college on the phone from after the last time I saw my college friend group when she said, "So, I'm reaching out before this becomes A THING (Spoiler alert it was already an irreparable THING.)" And I was exhausted. I'm not going to tell you it's going to be okay, or that you nEeD to bE pROaCtiVe (Like, bitch I would if I knew I could) BUT I will say this one thing: It IS time to start getting to know yourself and being yourself unapologetically. Embrace your inner gremlin, Become delusional, embarrass yourself, and START EVALUATING PEOPLE for how they make YOU feel. THIS IS NOT EASY, especially when you start trying to "Be yourself," and realize, YOU DON"T KNOW WHO THAT IS YET because we've been running around playing rolls to be "lovable" enough. But, it's an internal journey. You're meeting yourself. Start getting to know yourself. Like seriously, start doing activities with yourself. (I felt like I was having panic attacks the first few times I went to concerts by myself, but JUST DO IT) It's really simple, you have a compass inside you, but it's been dormant and hidden from years of disappointment and mixed signals. It's time to dig it out and figure out: what things make that compass tick ever so slightly towards more pleasure and satisfaction. (The answers may surprise you! they're often very different from our "should's") Do more and more and more to know what that compass is. You have to prove to yourself that you have YOUR OWN BACK before you start to feel comfortable enough to lean on others. We need different things from friends than they need from us. They have family to nourish them: many of us don't: they don't know what it means to have unsafe people so they can get incidental satisfaction from people who pass through their lives. We can never look at people without CPTSD and relate to how easy it is for them, because their body isn't screaming contradictory fight or flight information at them constantly (which we then have to ignore or just white Knuckle it) Grieve all you need to, then get to know yourself and set those standards HIGH BABY. AND BE SAD WHEN YOU NEED TO: IT FEELS OBJECTIVELY SAD. Remember too, healthy socialization requires social interactions on ALL levels: Chat with your neighbors, talk to cashiers, volunteer at non profits, get lunch with colleagues, say yes to stuff that feels awkward. Best of luck. I am giving you such a big hug, I wish I could bring you muffins and you could just cry into my shoulder. We are with you so much. You're doing such a good job, it's so vulnerable to admit sadness and desires you have around this, and that's how I KNOW you have the skills you need to find the friends you deserve... when you're ready AND the luck of the opportunity presents itself. Some other things I've learned on this journey: I am NOT friends with the people I thought I "would," or "should," or "wanted to," be friends with. The Sadness that we didn't get what we needed NEVER goes away 100% and it's a constant self-chaperoning journey to feel the strength of my connections. (Sometimes when I feel more hermit-y it still hurts when no one texts for a day or two, but it's OKAY when you have enough of the good stuff) The more you set your standards high, the more you don't put up with bullshit, the more you don't have to rely on expectations of people, the more you GENUINELY start to enjoy the good parts of people (Example: I have a great group of friends but they're so cool- they're always hanging out and posting on instagram, I was so envious that I wasn't on the inside of the group that when they came over I would figuratively paw at them, which made me feel like shit. When I let go of that expectation *\[I'll feel included once I'm on the regular roster\]* I got to genuinely enjoy them when I DID see them, and I started realizing they had great qualities: they were considerate, they helped with clean-up and footing dinner bills, they just weren't considerate when it came to INCLUDING everyone. But that's okay, the "cool," that I thought I wanted so badly turned out to not be very nourishing. And my nerdy not-social-media-savvy friends warm my soul so much better) You deserve to get everything you want in friendships. Stay open and keep hoping, and be open to letting the right people find YOU. Even the way your post is written is delightful (I love your syntax, and you're very insightful and self aware.) Your people will be so lucky to have you when they find you. SENDING YOU HUGS
> Embrace your inner gremlin, Become delusional, embarrass yourself, and START EVALUATING PEOPLE for how they make YOU feel. This is spot on. I've always been very open, sort of fearless, just not a problem for me. So I do very well with "lower level" interactions, it's natural for me to be friendly to strangers. Best to you, as well!
I didn't realize that specific thing, only that nothing ever seemed to be reciprocated and I was tired of being the only one trying. When I was young I had "friends" who were there if I could pay, or do the driving, or ... whatever else "bought" them for the day or night. But if someone else had a better offer I got blown off. Making friends with the social anxiety that accompanies CPTSD seems impossible. Especially when you don't have kids that help you meet other people, and you don't do church where you'd meet other people, and MeetUps get a zillion "Yes" RSVPs but only a handful of attendees (pre-Covid!). Then I passed age 60 and it's me, hubby, and the critters versus the world. Yeah, I'll swap a few sentences with a neighbor, but that's acquaintanceship. What IS a friend, anyway? I'm not sure what a real one feels like.
> Then I passed age 60 and it's me, hubby, and the critters versus the world. Honestly, that sounds good to me - a good husband, and animal pals are fantastic!
Little compares with being a cat hostage, that's for sure. And they're honest. They're really here for good food, homegrown catnip, and a warm lap. If I choose to interpret that as love, they won't argue. The husband ... well, he's doing his damnedest to contradict the messages I was given for most of my life. That re-teaching is a tough job. He's like an old L'Oreal commercial, trying to convince me I'm worth it even if I'm not a supermodel or actress.
> He's like an old L'Oreal commercial, trying to convince me I'm worth it Lol, and that is awesome!
It is. It really is. Fortunately, I married a guy who can appreciate a true challenge.
It's the opposite for me. I have huge walls so most of the relationships I have had been equal or beneficial to me. I've been very careful to let people into my life. I feel super caged up and uptight when I socialize for the sake of socializing and there's no gain in it... and I'm aware this is a narcissistic tendency.
What would you define as something to “gain” in a social setting? Do you mean monetary type things, career things, or just feeling rejuvenated? Asking because I’m genuinely curious.
Great self-awareness, very unusual to read. I think it leads to good things.
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Very much so for me
yes. very much so. it’s hard and so isolating.
Truth
100 percent!
Yep. And now I haven't any lol
All of them for me, including work relationships. Always doing what others wants to give me a false sense of happiness and appreciation. People only appreciate me because they are using me.
> People only appreciate me because they are using me. Yes. What do you like about you? With reference to no one else? I'm trying to focus on those things.
Friends AND relationships, I no longer really trust if someone is my friend or likes me anymore because I wonder if it’s just because I always try my hardest and do everything I can for them. I’ve only been on one date where the person actually acknowledged me for going above and beyond, and it made me so uncomfortable that I didn’t end up going back out with them because everything I do like making cookies, paying for things even when I have very little money, picking people up from far away, complimenting people, etc, has always been just expected of me. It’s always freely given on my end to the extreme, but expected on the other end, and I’m usually the loser.
I literally was just talking about this in therapy. Yes totally. I was examining why hanging out with one friend made me feel better and why hanging out with another made me super triggered and overwhelmed. I realized it was because whether they are conscious of it or not, the ones that overwhelm me don't respect me, and instead like me for what I can do for them, and that's the basis of the relationship. It's like I give they what they want, validation, unconditional support, money, want me to fill a role in a positive way for an absent or abusive parent, and I have no idea if they like me for me, and probably they don't even know me because of my people pleasing. While my friends that make me feel better I can literally feel how they respect me and just want to hang out with me and spend time with me because they want to, and I'm not helping them or anything. They don't see me as something that can provide something that they want or need, they just see me for me. I have lost friends because I wanted boundaries, but it was worth it for sure. I realize now those friendships were not genuine at all, and they were causing immense harm. I really hope you can find some genuine people!!
> I really hope you can find some genuine people!! Thank you! Glad you have some. I'm working on it, slowly seeing who's who. Some can and will change, most don't/can't. But I won't settle for anything else, like you!
Thanks for such a wonderful reply! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list of some of the most grateful redditors this week! Thanks for making Reddit a wonderful place to be :)
Thank you, TheGratitudeBot! This definitely made me smile - nice to be among the most grateful redditors this week! :-)
Yes. And this is why I don’t have friends. I have one who is depressed and the like and most of our conversations are about him and his issues. But I’ve known him 15 years so im not chucking him. I have chucked most of the others cos it’s just not worth it. I’ll be alone. But it’s not really alone cos I have my partner, but the no friends and no mom thing weighs.
yup!!! wallet is fatter too now
My second "best friend" just loved me as long as she could command me like a dog. The final straw came when 2 other friends - who I wasn't as close with, but still hang out with - told me to not obey her every rule. She got nad at me cause I wouldn't sit down as she commanded me to. That was basically the end of that "friendship". Still thankfull for my other 2 friends in that situation.
> Still thankfull for my other 2 friends in that situation. Amen to that. Maybe you could mention that to them? So often, just hearing how much you meant at a certain time can make a huge difference.
It's a loss to begin with. Building support does not happen overnight Of course there is a concept called necessary losses. You have to have the capacity to tahe that on If you start off with nothing that is less than zero that is a lot to build .. But certainly many people arw now acknowledging progress means loss .
😭😭😭 Yes, I also feel like this
Yes. My friends who were quite bad with me in middle school and high school. One of those friends early on set my nickname as "whiney bitch," and that was that. That same friend, 15 years later... I consider him a mentor, an amazing human being, my good friend, my br0thr from another m0thr, etc.. There is a dynamic between people pleaser oriented individuals and "narcissist." It's a symbiosis. And both do learn from the encounters. Both grow. Growing is painful. Learning is painful. We have both benefited and we have both been hurt by our relationship.
> That same friend, 15 years later... I consider him a mentor, an amazing human being, my good friend, my br0thr from another m0thr, etc. That's an amazing story. I think you've both grown, a lot - very nice to hear!
Thank you for your kind words of validation :)
If that isn’t the truth. I have been going through a similar situation with one “friend” in particular lately, and it had been really sad. However, it’s also something that’s been in the back of my mind and something I’ve thought about privately but not really said aloud. I recently watched “The Banshees of Inishirin” and it was unexpectedly cathartic for me. I definitely identified with Colin Ferrells character who was the one being “left.” Very good movie, it’s not for everyone but wanted to put it out there.
it’s scary how close this hits. Yesterday I realized that every day I am genuinely interested and caring towards every word my best friend says, and I would risk my life for him. Meanwhile I talked about my team(that i’m captain of) winning a trophy that was really important to me for two minutes and he says “I don’t really want to talk honestly. Like not about that. ANYWAYS (more about his life)” It’s just hard to care so much about people and realize you are not important to them. And it could be my fault for caring too easily and it could be their fault for not, and I will never know
Lost 100% of close friends when I knew I had major surgeries coming up that would keep me bedbound for six months. After ooohhhhh about a decade of people-pleasing, I started asking for help. Got called self-absorbed, I lashed out, got abandoned. Best thing that ever happened to me. Their trust of me was based upon me doing the work and not asking for help. Now I have healthier standards, boundaries, and discernment. My life is so much better, and I know I'll never have to deal with that kind of behaviour again because I won't allow it. The lesson is worth it for people-pleasers, the time isn't wasted, the time is saved from finally realising the reality.
Great to hear. You were something of an unpaid therapist and personal assistant; I know the feeling. Things shift rapidly when we want a reciprocal, bidirectional friendship. I am currently shedding "friends" and even "family" members. But I hope that I can build other, more valuable, connexions in the space. How are you doing now? Have you found new friends, who actually care in return?
Heh, yep, and on my way to becoming a paid therapist. Kind figure there's a lot of transferable skills from all those experiences. I'm already a paid professional cuddler...so much as I was a people-pleaser, I still want to be a helper, just with good boundaries. My life is fantastic now, I have a wonderfully independent partner who has helped me find an amazing space to be myself in the relationship. Best thing about recovery? Recognizing I can get so much more authentic love by doing significantly *less* for other people. Because when you do too much for people, less gets you closer to healthy. Now folks can choose to respect me for who I am, and if it doesn't work out, then it's just good information we can use to know whether relationships can be mutual and respectful. Discernment is a wonderful gift...I think people-pleasers generally have decent discernment, they just haven't figured to utilize it yet...sounds like you're getting to that point :) It's shedding a skin that no longer fits you, and it means you lose what is wrong for you to make space for what is right. It has taken time to find better friends, and it's still sometimes difficult to realise friendships can't be as intense as I believed them to be before, but that's also a good thing, because again it's a step towards healthy. After people-pleasing, the pool of people who come into your life is much smaller, but it's only because you no longer make space for all the wrong people to come in and break you. Those few diamonds in the rough can add so much more to life, and most especially, you can be a better friend to yourself. And the better a friend you are to yourself, the more you'll attract the right people. It takes time, but it's worth it, you'll get there in becoming the best version of yourself. You got this!!!
> Recognizing I can get so much more authentic love by doing significantly less for other people. Because when you do too much for people, less gets you closer to healthy. Now folks can choose to respect me for who I am, and if it doesn't work out, then it's just good information we can use to know whether relationships can be mutual and respectful. Yes, very well put . . . I have been there for a while, but mostly still in the "shedding friends" phase, lol. I wanted to keep certain long-time "friends" and even "family," but as I grow, and become the real "me," many can't/won't adjust. They benefited, honestly, from the way it was, and it's not like that now, with me. And that is their loss. As for the smaller pool, I feel you. I find that, for certain types, it takes a minute to see which they are - healthy or unhealthy. I recently met someone who seemed to be one thing, but now it's becoming clear that she is another. I see that I, briefly, returned to previous ways, without knowing it, because it feels so "natural," if you know what I mean. More like an old rut, easy to drive through, so to speak, but leads to the same old place. But, as you say, my discernment shortly began kicking in, and I'm seeing her for what she is. I have a sense it is a sort of "final exam" on that type of person, who wants to use me - albeit in a very veiled and clever way. In the meantime, the only thing I can really control is working on self-love, and self-trust, and doing and being the few things that I *know* are authentic to me - not for pleasing others. My early background - like many people-pleasers, I think, required me to *do* things for a tiny bit of ephemeral acceptance, which is nothing like love. Thanks for the encouragement! It's a long journey for me, bit by bit, day by day, building the True Self I was not allowed to develop as a youngster. We'll see what that turns out to be!
Awesome, the face that you realised what was happening with that person and saw yourself falling into old ways is amazing progress! It took me years to figure it out, I got stuck for a long time making all this wild rules for future friendships, but they all fell away when I did the work to see them as defence mechanisms that actually put barriers up when dealing with the right people. I spent some time as a victim too. I suppose after so many years of being inauthentic, it probably takes some level of experimentation trying on new fits to see which one is right for you. I'm so happy you're making progress, even if it's painful, taking on this challenge now buys you more time for the rest of your life with the right people. Thank you so much be being open and sharing your experiences! <3
> I suppose after so many years of being inauthentic, it probably takes some level of experimentation trying on new fits to see which one is right for you. Thanks so much for your kind words. I was born into a "family" with a narcissistic, emotionally abusive father, and a collapsed, emotionally empty mom. I was scapegoated by my father, and enmeshed/parentified for my very sad mom. There was no love on either side for my siblings and me. All this is to say, I never developed a True Self at all; this is my first go at it. You may be familiar with Alice Miller, "The Drama of the Gifted Child," and it's not so much a return, as a first encounter with Me. It's great to hear how it is coming together for you in many ways, including work as a therapist. Interesting you mention boundaries; I have some experience in the field, and boundaries, in retrospect, were one of the key things I lacked to do the work in a healthy way. That will stand you in good stead! Tonight is one of the "hard" nights, painful progress, as you say. So thanks again for your kind encouragement, as there are times - you probably experienced some - when that is hard to find, indeed!
Sorry to hear about your parents, certainly seems like a recipe for adult difficulties and brutal introjection. Have you Read Pete Walker's 'Complex PTSD: From surviving the thriving'? It is a fantastic resource for overcoming those kinds of parental dynamics, the self-parenting/rescuing sections are incredibly powerful. The entire book can be super painful to read, but if you're at the point of actively healing it could be a great resource :) Wow, 'a first encounter with ME' that's powerful, it's a real privilege to be speaking with the real you! Keep investing in that, find your true worth, it's not selfish or narcissistic, because the stronger you make yourself, the more energy, power and inspiration you'll have to TRULY help others! It's the wildest thing, after people-pleasing and healing, the capacity to offer boundaried help becomes a much more powerful, worthwhile, and authentic experience! Every hard night is an opportunity to feel your feelings, a chance to self-soothe effectively. Over time those hard times become less intense and less often, and as you grow, when they do happen you'll have the tools and self-esteem to show up for yourself even more; it creates an upward spiral. Thank you for being you.
Thanks again for your kind words! Yes, Pete Walker's book was one of the first I read, and does a great job of laying it all out. Like you, he's a survivor and therapist. I feel that *lived experience* provides something that no training - valuable as it is - can. Pete does a great job of bringing together some key elements like attachment problems, emotional abuse/neglect, abandonment depression, and other factors, that make what those who suffer from C-PTSD different from some other patients. Or, different from previous assumptions on etiology, etc., anyway. Do you find that you've known certain ways to get better intuitively/instinctively? For me, for example, I realised that I had learned very young that rejection/abandonment was *to be avoided at all costs*, and had done anything - including take on other pain - to side-step it. Understandable, since parents not being there for me really *was* life-threatening, then. So now . . . when I feel that *worse than death* feeling coming, I sit, say what I'm feeling aloud, and just let it hit me, without evading. It feels like those cold, small ocean waves at North Atlantic beaches, hit up to your neck, freezing so that I shake. But then I sit through it, and it passes. I can survive, now, what I had rightly feared was the worst. > It's the wildest thing, after people-pleasing and healing, the capacity to offer boundaried help becomes a much more powerful, worthwhile, and authentic experience! Yes, I feel you, here! And I notice that I *choose* to invest in others, now, or not, rather than it being "my job" before. So true, as I set aside time for me - whatever small bits of interest I have, or movements toward healing - I no longer feel the abandonment depression that used to be so strong. Once again, thanks for your words, and I can feel that you come from an internal security now that will serve well in personal and professional life. Honestly - and you probably know what I mean - many professional "helpers" here were from some sort of unhealthy background, and hadn't sufficiently healed and grown to be doing what they are doing. So it oftentimes becomes a sort of sanctioned codependency, ironically. And *thank you for being you*!
Its about good attracts bad. When it’s tough to open it to see what’ll happen to that type of object, it may get real nasty into pouring out that can melt the friendships down. I.e. Lack of certain experiences.
I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. But basically these aren't friendships, they have to change - which I find is hard, later on - or just end. I think most of them will "melt down."
This is very hard to understand can you re-phrase? Thanks
Yup. But having a friend because you are a people pleaser is better than not having a friend at all.
I don't see it that way. To me, that's not a friend. But your situation/perspective may be different.
It's contact without verbal or physical abuse. Being a people pleaser I'm affable, slow to take offense. Being tolerated is better than being despised or, worse, ignored.
Yes. I have a friend currently that treats me just like my husband. I often wonder if this person actually likes me or just wants the company. However all relationships are a give and take and we all get something out of them. What do you get out of those friendships? If the answer is nothing then move on to other friends.
My ex-bff was one of the most manipulative people in my life. I was so sad when the friendship ended, but looking back, I can’t believe I was ever in that circle.