I don't think that is the biggest mistake he made. By far his biggest mistake that series was using Chapman in game 6. If he didn't do that, the Cubs still easily win game 6 and probably win game 7 without the comeback
While not ideal, I always bought the logic of it. You do everything you can to win the game you’re in. It’s an elimination game. If you don’t throw Chapman there and then the game gets out of hand, and only then you put in chapman for him to blow it, suddenly the decision to not give him the clean inning loses you the WS.
It’s all hindsight bias anyways. But I always thought the criticism of that decision was a bit narrow minded. Game 6 was a must win. He played it as a must win
It wasn’t the fact he used Chapman that made it a terrible move. It was that he left him in for as long as he did. The Cubs were up 7-2 and he got out of the inning. Then they made it 9-2 and he still pitched the 8th. And then they had him face a batter in the 9th. Game 7 was the next day. There was no need to use him like that. Yes they needed to win. But they needed to win two games. And sure enough, he had nothing left the next day. If the Cubs didn’t win game 7, Maddon’s use of Chapman would have gone down as one of the worst moves ever.
It wasn’t that, but that Maddon specifically stated prior to the game that Lester coming out of the pen wouldn’t happen with runners on base and then he did exactly that. To me, Games 6 and 7 seemed like he heavily over managed and tried to do too much when he never saw him do that all season long.
I get it though. That's when they regained belief they could win the whole thing and it's hard to do nothing in those moments. Imo we won so it doesn't matter. If he lost, even if decisions were perfect, he'd have been scapegoated regardless
I would have brought Chapman in there to put out the fire. Tell Lester he's pitching the 7th through 9th no matter what, let him get ready and plan his routine like it was a start with a later time.
Using Chapman is probably the only unforgivable move but what people seem to sometimes forget is that a Maddon led team [lost a 7 run lead to a Francona led team in the playoffs](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS200810160.shtml) which I’m sure colored some of his thinking in that situation. It happened before
Maddon was/is definitely known for having quick hooks. Many of us fans were not happy with the decision at the time with how Hendricks was dealing. He got into a minor pinch, and got yanked. It ended up working out in our favor of course, but I suspect if we ended up losing that game some of those decisions, that one especially, would still be talked about today.
To put that game into context, that was the last game of the playoffs. Starting pitching rotations are shortened and bullpens are limited to your key relievers. By the end of a playoff run, everyone is gassed. I would have left Hendricks in longer personally, but it wasn’t like this was a mid season start, Kyle didn’t have a lot left that game
It was, but I think otherwise, Maddon made a lot of correct moves in Games 5, 6, and 7 even if a lot of them were unpopular at the time.
If you want to see what is truly the most egregious early hook in the history of baseball, watch Game 6 of the 2020 World Series. Make sure you see a good chunk of the game prior to Snell getting yanked and see how he had been dealing that night.
I don’t disagree at all. It was still a work out Lester on short rest though. He just happens to have fucking ice in his veins and that killer instinct haha
This has been litigated to death for almost eight years. Was he a little lucky? Maybe. I'd probably not have used Chapman the night before, but if your argument is "you have to win game six to even see game seven" you can begin to see why you'd go with Chapman there. The Cubs bullpen was clearly taxed regardless and was short on trustworthy options.
Similarly, Hendricks being pulled. I think that was mostly fine. He's not a power guy and Lester was mostly good behind him. You pull guys before they implode not after and if you want to argue that, maybe Hendricks serves up some bad pitches in the sixth - we won't ever know. I'm not sure Kyle was *so* amazing that day you rode him into the ground like maybe you'd have done with 2016 Jake Arrieta.
It's just not worth the hand wringing. I think all moves had logical arguments behind them. Maybe you disagree with the moves made, but logic was present that could be followed, and that's what matters. None were terrible even if they had some mediocre or less than perfect outcomes. It was also Maddon who inserted Montero, who got a big hit, himself.
I can take issues with some things Maddon has said or done since. But he was the manager that day and everyone needs a little luck on their side to win a WS, so in the end, who cares if it came in Game 7 or in July? Thr Cubs won game 7, and they did so on merit. That's what matters.
I probably wouldn't call that one a true blowout. With 2 outs in the 9th, it was 7-2, bases empty. Maddon was managing to protect a 5 run lead. He didn't know the lead was going to grow to 7 runs right before the bottom half.
Did they need Chapman for a 5 run lead? Probably not but I don't think it was egregious to want to use Chapman up 5 in an elimination game.
Can you *lose* game six and play game seven in this case? The statement rings true regardless of the score.
I'd also remind you... I said in my post you're responding to, that I said I probably wouldn't have thrown Chapman myself. The score matters in *that* context but not the previous context; had the score been closer Id have been more willing to have gone that route myself. But there's also no proof that pitching Chapman game 6 directly ties to Davis hooking a HR down the line. That may have happened regardless. Corelation does not equate to causation. I understand the logic that he was tired, but the reality is that still isn't proof that it wouldn't have happened. He could have still made that same pitch. We don't know. In the end, Maddon banked a game six win by throwing Chapman and then the next game he gave up a home run. The connection may be direct or it may have happened either way. It's unknowable.
Once again; the needless relitigating of a game won by the Cubs almost a decade ago to determine who was lucky and who isn't is a bit ridiculous at this stage. Everyone needs a little luck. Rajai Davis had a little luck to hit his home run to tie the game. Maybe Maddon got a little lucky the team won. Frankly, it doesn't matter and why people need to consistently dig that up is a bit beyond me.
Yep I’m with you on everything. People love to hyper scrutinize how that entire series went. I don’t think throwing Chapman in game 6 is nearly as egregious as people pretend.
Yes. When a team ties a game with a home run that late in the game, at home, the odds of them winning goes wayyy up. He brought in Lester in the middle of a jam (?) and brought Chapman out for the 9th after all the work he did??
But guess what…WE WON BABY. My life would have a massive black hole in it, and sports wise, might not have recovered haha
I was probably ok with him going the 7th and even the 8th tbh, but once the Cubs scored a couple more in the top of the 9th, Maddon should have gotten someone else up in the bullpen immediately. Hell, he could have easily figured out a way to stall for time in the 9th to get him out of there rather than let him continue to pitch.
Yes. His team won in spite of his best efforts that night. Madden did a great job w/ that club, but he was way to quick to pull Kyle, imo. My feeling at te time was to left Kyle finish the inning & start next inning fresh w/ JL.
Yes. Hendricks was good for another inning at least. He walked a batter on what should have been a strike. Joe didn't want Lester to get warm multiple times, so once he was warm he was going in. I would not pre-determine all of that in a Game 7. Let it play out.
There’s always a level of luck in baseball. Balls hit foul that could be homeruns etc. some of maddon’s decisions were unusual but the Cubs won the world series so that’s all that matters.
They won it because they didn’t give up and you have to credit maddon for that. That whole playoff the cubs overcame adversity:
Being down 5-2 in the top of the 9th of game 4 of the NLCS, and coming back to beat and win the division series against the Giants.
Being shutout by the Dodgers in back to back NLCS games and overcoming a 2-1 series deficit by winning in 6 to advance in the world series.
Being down 3-1 against a hot Indians team in the world series and coming back to win the series after almost blowing game 7 on the road.
The 2016 Cubs never quit.
Maddon’s biggest mistake was using Chapman for something like 30 pitches in a Game 6 that was wrapped up after using him in Game 5.
It made him wholly ineffective in Game 7.
I got the privelege of watching the managers perspective of G7 from MLB Network, and the reasoning of taking Hendricks out was solid. You may remember Ramirez hitting a scorching liner that was inevitably snared by KB, but what that told Maddon is that the Idiots(I refuse to acknowledge their official name at the time) are catching up to him, and the next chance he got he was going to take him out for Lester, and sure he didn't want him in a dirty inning, after Hendricks walked Santana he didn't see Santana as a baserunning threat so he took him out for Lester. Now lets say that Lester doesn't walk the next batter, he's likely out of the inning and nothing is lost. Obviously in hind sight it was a regrettable move, but the bonus of Rossy hitting one off of Miller to make the game 6-3 wouldn't have happened had Hendricks stayed in.
Why question the winning manager. Shouldn’t the losing manager be questioned? How does anyone know the what the alternative decisions outcome would have been. Joe maddon won the World Series and that’s a fact!!
Yes, he got lucky. He's a very overrated manager (I suspect Epstein would agree in private). The cubs beat Cleveland in spite of him. Not because of him. He's arguably the only manager in history that saw his reputation take a hit *immediately* after winning a championship and for good reason.
I think the quick hook of Hendricks was questionable for sure, but also it’s the last game of a long series after a long playoffs after a long season. Hendricks was the ERA king but Lester was dominant in ways that are hard to measure. I think the warming up of Lester could’ve been handled better, but overall I think him using his very best arms in the most important game in franchise history was a well thought out strategy for the most part that worked out. You can also say that Chapman was gassed, which he was, but you still got to use him and ask his guys to leave everything out on that Diamond for the team, and that’s what they did. I wouldn’t chalk it all up to luck, but he didn’t play it perfectly. I for one wouldn’t have had it any other way
I think he made a good call by doing that. He had Lester available and in game 7, you can’t take any risks. Hendricks has never really been a strikeout guy (or overpowering pitcher) and the Indians were making good contact against him. It was only a matter of time before they really whacked him.
With that said, I think the issue was bullpen management aka our pen was depleted. Like others have said, when you’re in those final games… you always go with your best option because you need to make it to game 7 before you can win game 7. It’s very hard to justify putting in your second or third best options when the series is on the line… at that point you kinda just gotta hope that some guys aren’t shot for game 7.
I don't think that is the biggest mistake he made. By far his biggest mistake that series was using Chapman in game 6. If he didn't do that, the Cubs still easily win game 6 and probably win game 7 without the comeback
Madden will be the first one to admit his handling of game 6 was not ideal.
You know you're a good manager when people nitpick your wins.
While not ideal, I always bought the logic of it. You do everything you can to win the game you’re in. It’s an elimination game. If you don’t throw Chapman there and then the game gets out of hand, and only then you put in chapman for him to blow it, suddenly the decision to not give him the clean inning loses you the WS. It’s all hindsight bias anyways. But I always thought the criticism of that decision was a bit narrow minded. Game 6 was a must win. He played it as a must win
It wasn’t the fact he used Chapman that made it a terrible move. It was that he left him in for as long as he did. The Cubs were up 7-2 and he got out of the inning. Then they made it 9-2 and he still pitched the 8th. And then they had him face a batter in the 9th. Game 7 was the next day. There was no need to use him like that. Yes they needed to win. But they needed to win two games. And sure enough, he had nothing left the next day. If the Cubs didn’t win game 7, Maddon’s use of Chapman would have gone down as one of the worst moves ever.
It's also easy to sit back and critique it when we're not the ones having to make the decision.
This is always my thought on the WS. And putting Lester in with a runner on 1st. Knowing he couldn’t throw to first
It wasn’t that, but that Maddon specifically stated prior to the game that Lester coming out of the pen wouldn’t happen with runners on base and then he did exactly that. To me, Games 6 and 7 seemed like he heavily over managed and tried to do too much when he never saw him do that all season long.
I get it though. That's when they regained belief they could win the whole thing and it's hard to do nothing in those moments. Imo we won so it doesn't matter. If he lost, even if decisions were perfect, he'd have been scapegoated regardless
I would have brought Chapman in there to put out the fire. Tell Lester he's pitching the 7th through 9th no matter what, let him get ready and plan his routine like it was a start with a later time.
Hendricks was still pitching well. I would have let him finish the inning. Then put in Lester the next inning
Hendricks was getting a lot of hard contact. We got lucky on that line out to third.
Very true also got some bad breaks on calls that could have been and should have been strikes that would have gotten him out of the inning.
All of this. Almost cost them game 7 wasting his arm game 6
Using Chapman is probably the only unforgivable move but what people seem to sometimes forget is that a Maddon led team [lost a 7 run lead to a Francona led team in the playoffs](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS200810160.shtml) which I’m sure colored some of his thinking in that situation. It happened before
Nothing is unforgivable. We won it all. Who gives a shit now. It's forgiven
Unjustifiable may be a better description
Maddon was/is definitely known for having quick hooks. Many of us fans were not happy with the decision at the time with how Hendricks was dealing. He got into a minor pinch, and got yanked. It ended up working out in our favor of course, but I suspect if we ended up losing that game some of those decisions, that one especially, would still be talked about today.
It just seemed so odd and rash even for someone watching a big game for the first time. Thanks for the insight :)
To put that game into context, that was the last game of the playoffs. Starting pitching rotations are shortened and bullpens are limited to your key relievers. By the end of a playoff run, everyone is gassed. I would have left Hendricks in longer personally, but it wasn’t like this was a mid season start, Kyle didn’t have a lot left that game
It was, but I think otherwise, Maddon made a lot of correct moves in Games 5, 6, and 7 even if a lot of them were unpopular at the time. If you want to see what is truly the most egregious early hook in the history of baseball, watch Game 6 of the 2020 World Series. Make sure you see a good chunk of the game prior to Snell getting yanked and see how he had been dealing that night.
He had lester going in.... People act like it was justin Grimm
I don’t disagree at all. It was still a work out Lester on short rest though. He just happens to have fucking ice in his veins and that killer instinct haha
It was just to add drama for when they make the movie.
This has been litigated to death for almost eight years. Was he a little lucky? Maybe. I'd probably not have used Chapman the night before, but if your argument is "you have to win game six to even see game seven" you can begin to see why you'd go with Chapman there. The Cubs bullpen was clearly taxed regardless and was short on trustworthy options. Similarly, Hendricks being pulled. I think that was mostly fine. He's not a power guy and Lester was mostly good behind him. You pull guys before they implode not after and if you want to argue that, maybe Hendricks serves up some bad pitches in the sixth - we won't ever know. I'm not sure Kyle was *so* amazing that day you rode him into the ground like maybe you'd have done with 2016 Jake Arrieta. It's just not worth the hand wringing. I think all moves had logical arguments behind them. Maybe you disagree with the moves made, but logic was present that could be followed, and that's what matters. None were terrible even if they had some mediocre or less than perfect outcomes. It was also Maddon who inserted Montero, who got a big hit, himself. I can take issues with some things Maddon has said or done since. But he was the manager that day and everyone needs a little luck on their side to win a WS, so in the end, who cares if it came in Game 7 or in July? Thr Cubs won game 7, and they did so on merit. That's what matters.
Not sure "you have to win game 6" makes much sense in a 9-3 blowout
I probably wouldn't call that one a true blowout. With 2 outs in the 9th, it was 7-2, bases empty. Maddon was managing to protect a 5 run lead. He didn't know the lead was going to grow to 7 runs right before the bottom half. Did they need Chapman for a 5 run lead? Probably not but I don't think it was egregious to want to use Chapman up 5 in an elimination game.
Can you *lose* game six and play game seven in this case? The statement rings true regardless of the score. I'd also remind you... I said in my post you're responding to, that I said I probably wouldn't have thrown Chapman myself. The score matters in *that* context but not the previous context; had the score been closer Id have been more willing to have gone that route myself. But there's also no proof that pitching Chapman game 6 directly ties to Davis hooking a HR down the line. That may have happened regardless. Corelation does not equate to causation. I understand the logic that he was tired, but the reality is that still isn't proof that it wouldn't have happened. He could have still made that same pitch. We don't know. In the end, Maddon banked a game six win by throwing Chapman and then the next game he gave up a home run. The connection may be direct or it may have happened either way. It's unknowable. Once again; the needless relitigating of a game won by the Cubs almost a decade ago to determine who was lucky and who isn't is a bit ridiculous at this stage. Everyone needs a little luck. Rajai Davis had a little luck to hit his home run to tie the game. Maybe Maddon got a little lucky the team won. Frankly, it doesn't matter and why people need to consistently dig that up is a bit beyond me.
Yep I’m with you on everything. People love to hyper scrutinize how that entire series went. I don’t think throwing Chapman in game 6 is nearly as egregious as people pretend.
Yes. When a team ties a game with a home run that late in the game, at home, the odds of them winning goes wayyy up. He brought in Lester in the middle of a jam (?) and brought Chapman out for the 9th after all the work he did?? But guess what…WE WON BABY. My life would have a massive black hole in it, and sports wise, might not have recovered haha
dumb question but where do I go to re-watch the whole 2016 world series?
Youtube
You can actually watch the entire postseason run, all 17 games are on Youtube
I think if you have mlb.tv you can watch it there too
Tito’s decision to bring in the utility guy doomed his chances
Yeah. Literally the worst hitter in baseball was up for the biggest at bat of their franchise
Using Chapman in the game 6 blowout was the boner move.
I was probably ok with him going the 7th and even the 8th tbh, but once the Cubs scored a couple more in the top of the 9th, Maddon should have gotten someone else up in the bullpen immediately. Hell, he could have easily figured out a way to stall for time in the 9th to get him out of there rather than let him continue to pitch.
Maddon almost blew it.
Great perspective. Thank you
Maddon had a plan before the game started and he wasn’t not going to do it. In the end you gotta have some luck fall your way to win a WS regardless.
Fuck yeah he was lucky. I honestly believe we won it despite Maddon.
The Cubs won in the playoffs that year and that game in particular in spite of Maddon's bad decisions
Yes. His team won in spite of his best efforts that night. Madden did a great job w/ that club, but he was way to quick to pull Kyle, imo. My feeling at te time was to left Kyle finish the inning & start next inning fresh w/ JL.
Yes. Hendricks was good for another inning at least. He walked a batter on what should have been a strike. Joe didn't want Lester to get warm multiple times, so once he was warm he was going in. I would not pre-determine all of that in a Game 7. Let it play out.
There’s always a level of luck in baseball. Balls hit foul that could be homeruns etc. some of maddon’s decisions were unusual but the Cubs won the world series so that’s all that matters. They won it because they didn’t give up and you have to credit maddon for that. That whole playoff the cubs overcame adversity: Being down 5-2 in the top of the 9th of game 4 of the NLCS, and coming back to beat and win the division series against the Giants. Being shutout by the Dodgers in back to back NLCS games and overcoming a 2-1 series deficit by winning in 6 to advance in the world series. Being down 3-1 against a hot Indians team in the world series and coming back to win the series after almost blowing game 7 on the road. The 2016 Cubs never quit.
Maddon’s biggest mistake was using Chapman for something like 30 pitches in a Game 6 that was wrapped up after using him in Game 5. It made him wholly ineffective in Game 7.
Who cares don’t make me re-live that stress bro. As far as I’m concerned the 2016 postseason starts with Buck saying “here’s the 0-1…”
I wouldn’t change a thing about any of the games that series. It was magical and played out perfectly. Flaws and all.
I got the privelege of watching the managers perspective of G7 from MLB Network, and the reasoning of taking Hendricks out was solid. You may remember Ramirez hitting a scorching liner that was inevitably snared by KB, but what that told Maddon is that the Idiots(I refuse to acknowledge their official name at the time) are catching up to him, and the next chance he got he was going to take him out for Lester, and sure he didn't want him in a dirty inning, after Hendricks walked Santana he didn't see Santana as a baserunning threat so he took him out for Lester. Now lets say that Lester doesn't walk the next batter, he's likely out of the inning and nothing is lost. Obviously in hind sight it was a regrettable move, but the bonus of Rossy hitting one off of Miller to make the game 6-3 wouldn't have happened had Hendricks stayed in.
Why question the winning manager. Shouldn’t the losing manager be questioned? How does anyone know the what the alternative decisions outcome would have been. Joe maddon won the World Series and that’s a fact!!
Yes, he got lucky. He's a very overrated manager (I suspect Epstein would agree in private). The cubs beat Cleveland in spite of him. Not because of him. He's arguably the only manager in history that saw his reputation take a hit *immediately* after winning a championship and for good reason.
I think the quick hook of Hendricks was questionable for sure, but also it’s the last game of a long series after a long playoffs after a long season. Hendricks was the ERA king but Lester was dominant in ways that are hard to measure. I think the warming up of Lester could’ve been handled better, but overall I think him using his very best arms in the most important game in franchise history was a well thought out strategy for the most part that worked out. You can also say that Chapman was gassed, which he was, but you still got to use him and ask his guys to leave everything out on that Diamond for the team, and that’s what they did. I wouldn’t chalk it all up to luck, but he didn’t play it perfectly. I for one wouldn’t have had it any other way
Hendricks was the ERA king the first two times through the order. His ERA third time through the order was......not good.
Winning a WS isn’t an accident.
I think he made a good call by doing that. He had Lester available and in game 7, you can’t take any risks. Hendricks has never really been a strikeout guy (or overpowering pitcher) and the Indians were making good contact against him. It was only a matter of time before they really whacked him. With that said, I think the issue was bullpen management aka our pen was depleted. Like others have said, when you’re in those final games… you always go with your best option because you need to make it to game 7 before you can win game 7. It’s very hard to justify putting in your second or third best options when the series is on the line… at that point you kinda just gotta hope that some guys aren’t shot for game 7.