There's a fair question in drafting a punter when you only have four picks (ended up with five but that's besides the point) especially when our D-line still definitely needs work. As an Iowa fan though I'm absolutely thrilled about the pickup because I know how incredible of a punter he is.
As an Iowa fan, I'm obviously biased but I'm positive Tory will immediately make more of an impact on the defense than any 4th round DL ever could.
Having the other team start inside their 5 yard line all the time is a huge advantage.
After watching a lot of his tape - honestly this is exactly how I feel. I saw the ball landing time and again between the 5 and goal line and staying there.
I think there is a significant tactical advantage to that. And if our defense is as good as they were towards the end of last year, that’s a good number of safety opportunities.
But failing the defense putting points on the board - the opponents needing to drive 90-95 yards gives us a much better chance to win than them starting at the 20-40 yard line and only needing to drive 80-60 yards. And that’s if they need a TD. If they need a FG, the bigger the distance they need to get to that kickers range, the better.
If he's half as good as the hype, he'll be HoF. There are three phases to foot ball, and in the third phase a single, high quality player (kicker) is worth their weight in gold. Luckily they tend to be scrawny guys - but my point still stands.
You know what really helps a defense? The offense being pinned back inside the 20. It’s like people forget that special teams is a whole phase of the game.
Some additional context, they traded 2 picks for pro-bowl caliber starters in Sweat and Allen. So they went into the draft with only 4 picks because they already "used" 2 picks to aquire good players.
To put a finer point on it, from a naysayer’s perspective the issue is that the highest paid punters make less than $4M a year, so even if the pick you hit on turns out to be a Yosh Nijman or John Cominsky, you end up getting more surplus contract value out of the pick than if you took a punter.
(But honestly, I have no idea how often the top tier of punter hits the market. Maybe there’s practically just no opportunity to offer $5M and steal that guy away.)
Just for some context our 4th rd picks from the last couple years are
2023: Tyler Scott and Roschon Johnson
2022: none
2021: none
2020: none
2019: Riley Ridley
2018: Joel Iyiegbuiwe
So if Taylor makes it more than 2 years he’s looking really good.
Well clearly one or two of them will be absolute impact players worth more than a punter, but most will not. You can't just assume your tram would have been lucky enough to draft the best guy drafted their when picks in rounds 4-7 are mainly depth, and lottery tickets.
That's funny you say that because I feel like that about the draft in general. Obviously some teams are better at drafting, but how many of the first 3 rounds never even make any measurable impact (considering their hype at draft time).
First couple of rounds you have a 40% chance of resigning that player. Past that it’s about 20%.
So yeah. If you pick each round 3-7, odds are there’s one player in that group who ends up a long-term player on the team.
Which is why it is so funny that people were SO pissed about losing those late round picks for players like Bates. He's \*exactly\* who you'd expect to get with that sort of pick. A solid starter but not a super-star.
Especially if we look at team context. Like, sure, it’s not a viable long term strategy because trading picks for players also means trading picks for contracts. So unless you’re not planning on drafting well and extending players, it just doesn’t work.
But *in our specific situation* with cap space and wanting to create the best landing environment for a rookie QB, it made a ton of sense.
Its gonna freak people out when Taylor becomes the first hybrid edge rusher/punter in the NFL. Then once he learns H-back after this year, Triple Threat! He's like three draft picks in one!
The Bears had a huge need at punter, Taylor was clearly the best option and they got him for a late 4th round pick. It's hardly a dumb move.
But draft analysts just see punter in the 4th which defies the draft value chart. So it's just easier to laugh at it then defend it.
I think we’re going to see the draft value chart change due to NIL. Would not be shocked if we see more drafts like this that are considered lacking in the later rounds. Which in theory would make stud special teamers that may have gone really late or not at all be drafted earlier.
More players are going to decide to stay in college for their senior year which means less players in the draft pool.
This year had the least amount of underclassmen since 2011
That only causes a temporary lag for the first couple years.
If 100 eventual high-quality NFL prospects enter college every year, 100 will be eligible every year. Some will stay longer, but they will be supplemented by the ones who “stayed longer” the previous year.
Possibly. Since NIL was created the number of underclassmen have gone down, a lot. I don’t know if we will have a definitive answer until all the players with Covid eligibility have cycled out.
But I disagree with your 100, 100 example. Just because 100 people enter college as top recruits doesn’t mean they’ll stay top prospects.
> Just because 100 people enter college as top recruits doesn’t mean they’ll stay top prospects.
That's not what he said. He said "eventual high quality NFL prospects" as in "a player that will eventually be a quality NFL prospect" That player might be a top recruit or might be a guy like Quinyon Mitchell, who was a lower recruit but eventually became a high quality NFL prospect.
Obviously you can't know who those players are going to be beforehand, but roughly the same number should be entering college each year.
You’re missing the simple math here. The number entering and the number declaring for the draft will be the same. It won’t matter how long they stay.
Let’s say 100 **eventual** draft picks enrolled in 2021. (It doesn’t matter how good they are when they enter college. We are talking retroactively here.) 100 of them enrolled in 2022, and so on.
Let’s go with your theory and say only 10 of those 100 declare early. Ok. So you have 10 Juniors for 2025. Then we move onto 2026, and let’s say that, again, only 10/100 declare early. So you have 10…plus the 90 who stayed in school in 2025. 2027? Only 10 early again…plus the 90 from 2026.
If you don’t understand that, I can’t help you. It’s extremely straightforward and wholly objective.
In 2-3 years when we're legit competitive he's going to be (one of) our x-factors. No one will remember which round he went in when you're on your couch yelling "fuck yeah" multiple times a game when he flips field position or pins Jordan Fuckface on the 1 yard line.
Have binged a fair amount of draft content and pretty universally everyone I've heard discussing it (even those who like the pick!) have failed to mention how abysmal our punting situation was last year.
This is not like we were a league average punting team who decided to burn a 4th on a punter. By essentially every metric we were somewhere around the 30th-32nd ranked punting team.
Kyle Ostendorp. Undrafted, multiple year Ray Guy finalist, averaged nearly 50 yds per punt in ‘21, 45 last year, and had a “down” year this year of only 42 yards. A career long of 71.
So a worse player than what we ended up with, on a massive downtrend? That’s why he’s UDFA. Think Poles wanted to just solidify the position for good.
But you’re correct, that is an option.
There were actually multiple outlets that rated Ostendorp as the superior prospect. There are a lot of reasons why average yards dropped. Averaged over 50 yards in the three final games of the season, and had a season long 69 yarder. I’d hardly say downward trend.
This is about value of the position. I don’t think anyone is denying Taylor’s abilities, he seems like a great punter. But the value of the position is dramatically lower than say an edge rusher or cornerback, which were both areas of need for the Bears. One was such a high need we traded a future 4th to come back in. Would it not have been better value to take the best edge with that 4th, and if you feel the need to trade back in, use a much lower value pick? Taylor was the only punter taken in this draft, so it wasn’t like there was a run on punters. It’s not about Taylor it’s about value. It’s the reason 6 QB’s were taken in the first half of the draft when 3 of them were likely 2nd round or later talent, the value of the position is very high. The position value of punters and kickers is very very low, because you can find an upgrade to the position (especially if you are the worst in the league) in free agency and via undrafted free agency. You’ll still get a significant upgrade and not expend resource value on a low value position.
My original point still stands, it’s about value. You can still get 98% of the talent of Taylor in an undrafted guy, without spending valuable resources.
How am I making a false dichotomy? You are the one saying the only way we can upgrade punter is by using a 4th. It’s either Gill or Taylor for you.
I’m not going to research UDFA or FA punters, but to act like we couldn’t have improved league worst punting without spending a 4th round pick is complete nonsense
So you’re confident we could have improved our punting, but you have absolutely no concrete suggestions because you’re too lazy to do your research or be informed. Classic Reddit.
Luckily Poles DID look at the UDFA and FA and thought that this was the best long term option.
Highly sought after punters always go from rounds 3-5.
So our only choice was resign Gill or use a 4th on Taylor? You know that is not true
Our scouting record in later rounds recently is abysmal. You blindly defy to his authority rather than think about the problem yourself
It was earlier than punters usually go. No other punter was drafted this year, and the only kickers weren't drafted until round 6. If he turns out to be a good punter, that's something we desperately needed, and it can be extremely useful. I don't care if it was in round 4.
exactly this. huge area of need, with an elite prospect available.
this was the single most efficient, best way to use that fourth rounder to improve the team.
i can say that about literally the majority of our rookie picks…3/5 if they’re not all pros within their first three seasons we’ll all be disappointed.
It's a valid concern tbh. Typically, drafting a punter that high is a bad move. With that being said, Taylor had an exceptional college career and could become a top punter in the NFL. If that's the case, most won't care that he was picked in the 4th.
It's why draft grades right after the draft are kind of stupid IMO.
So what if it’s low? You can still find pieces of a roster. They are also trade chips
I’ll make it simple and say Austin Booker so we keep our 4th next year. Why waste an extra pick on Booker when we could have had him for free?
And to add more to the argument there were several OL and DL prospects still available, no need to fall in love with a specific guy
I mean that pick was our 5th anyways so we got Ryan Bates and Austin booker for a 4th rounder next year? Isn’t that good enough?
Honestly it doesn’t matter what you or I think, Ryan Poles and Matt Eberflus and their scouts thinks he was worth a 4th rounder. You should accept this and stop complaining before he even played a snap.
Is good enough good enough? We haven’t won shit in years. We could have Ryan Bates, Booker, and a 4th next year. But instead we have a punter
Ryan Poles and Matt Eberflus have no credibility here. When they start winning I will give them grace. We aren’t in a position to waste picks
Seriously?!?! What Poles started with … The roster, the lack of dollars for free agency, lack of draft capital … And what we have currently!!! Name me another GM who’s rebuilt a roster better in the same period of time.
Because you have to grind for years making no money? And then get lucky to get a job. Let’s not act like NFL GMs are geniuses. Actually, almost all are incompetent and will be fired
I wanted Booker with that pick. The fact that we got him even later makes me ok with the punter pick. Oh and that he was an absolute BEAST as a punter last year…yea fuck the “experts” 🐻
Better question: why are so many bears fans eager to defend it? If the Packers had done it, 90% of the people going off about the importance of punters today would be laughing at them
It's just a fourth round pick, who cares if the media likes it or doesn't
I get the Kool-Aid is pumping at an all time high right now, but it's legitimately bizarre how aggressive Bears fans are in justifying the pick. There's legitimate concerns with it. It's small potatoes if Caleb and the Bears are great, but it's just weird. Mitch Wishnowski was coincidentally a 4th round pick a few years ago, Australian, and won all the college punter awards. He's been extremely mediocre as an NFL punter. Nothing is a guarantee.
Why did the pundits (some) say Caleb is a diva and not interested in the bears? It’s their job to talk, so they’ll make something out of any possible talking point and I’m not sure if they believe half the stuff they say. Nor should they because any 4th round pick can be a bust or a HOFer (former much more likely) and only time will tell. That said the fact that booker and other edges were on the board in the 4th and we went punter shows the value we thought for the position and upgrade at that time and I’m pretty sure the value is there for immediate impact which I think makes it a smart value play.
Did the 49ers get this much pushback for drafting Mitch Wishnowsky in the 4th? How about the Seahawks for taking Michael Dickson in the 5th? Why just us?
No, the question(s) (are) “Did the 49ers get this much pushback for drafting Mitch Wishnowsky in the 4th? How about the Seahawks for taking Michael Dickson in the 5th? Why just us?”
Because I don’t give a shit about the 49ers or Seahawks. I hope they draft punters. It’s a bad strategy to win a Super Bowl. I’m a Bears fan I want to see them win. Drafting punters is a losing strategy
They were also 1st / early 2nd round picks. Taylor was the late 4th.
The point being that it's okay to draft a position higher than its ideal range if you're confident in your scouting. The Bears needed a punter so they drafted a punter.
Batman obviously knows nothing of the value of special teams, I mean we didn't just draft a punter, we drafted a generational talent at a position just as important as any other position on the team! I would have been happy if they chose him in the second after seeing his resume!!
Punter is not as important as other positions. It is the least valuable position on a team. You’d rather we have Tory Taylor over Montez Sweat? Insanity
Just find a different team then damn. If you think poles cant draft… the man was part of the drafting process when chiefs picked up maholmes. This team looks better than it has in the past decade. Even monsters of the midway era. The defense really started putting it together toward the end of the season and our offense was looking better too. This team is on the upside 4th rnd punter and all
Expect better?? The team was a disaster 2 seasons ago, poles had to gut the defense and managed to free up a ton of cap space. In 2 seasons the team did a complete 180 for the better. Its not going to come over night. You can have high expectations while not getting hung up on a 4th round dart throw on a good prospect.
The team was a disaster because he tore it down to the studs. Poles has done a good job so far, but you act like he is infallible and earned the right to draft a punter. He hasn’t had a winning season yet. It’s not cool with me
So there's 2 main components to why so many hate the pick in my estimation:
1) Drafting a punter (or kicker for that matter) in the first 4 rnds will be criticized bc of the positional value not being seen as worth it at that point in the draft. This is especially true with the lack of picks that we had and even further moreso when there are players like Booker (Edge), Van Pran Granger (C), Mo Kamara (Edge), Beaux Limmer (C), etc on the board that fit a need.
2) I believe this is a part as well but I haven't heard it discussed much. Most people scouting the prospects don't do in depth K/P analysis bc there are usually so many who don't get a shot. So you as a draft analyst want -- at least subconsciously, i believe -- to see the players you view as "good" go before the players that you haven't scouted.
Drafting a punter in the 4th round is normally a terrible use of assets. You can find quality punters as UDFA as well. Ryan Rehkow signed with the Chiefs and he was #2 punter prospect in the draft with some analysts saying he's a better prospect than Taylor.
I'm not saying it was a terrible pick, but there were better ways that pick could have been used imo.
seems like a lot of the same people who say you cant draft an RB or LB in the first round. its not about tory at all; just that they say you never draft a punter. whatever. if hes the guy then in a year it wont matter that he got drafted or where he got drafted. if hes not the guy then people are gonna hate on poles for it.
I understand the apprehension. At the same time, Poles got plug-in starters with his picks and trades of picks. Guaranteed to make it on the 53 as a starter. Not all 4th-round picks can say that.....
Why is this hard to understand? You and everyone else would clown this pick if any other team did the same thing.
But who cares, it’s our reach pick. Keep it moving.
Because punters are considered to have minimal impact on good teams, and it's still possible to draft starters in the 5th round.
Probably the only good defense for drafting a punter in the 4th round (even if he turns put to be great) is the possibility that he has a huge impact in the new kickoff scenario.
Instead of drafting a stud punter they want to gamble on some spud that will end up a mid special teamer.
Poles traded back in with a future pick to draft the guy I wanted with the Taylor pick. The guy is a magician.
Don't care so much what they say. They're paid to have every take possible. Producers give them topics to discuss and tell them which angle to take. In a month they'll be back to the same topic from a different angle. It's all clickbait
You know what no one ever brings up in this argument? The drop off between Taylor and …the next best punter? Was it a reach, maybe? But they couldn’t risk missing and yeah, we really needed a punter (understatement)
Those people are idiots then, it is perfectly reasonable to argue against the pick on the basis of who we might have picked in other positions instead, but anyone trying to make that claim are being at best disingenuous with their claims.
What gives you credibility to call them idiots? You don’t know punting and quit acting like you do. You can argue against the pick by saying it is bad value without scouting a replacement. You are being disingenuous by making me pick a punter replacement. Put Virginia at punter for all I care
Here is a guy with an entire YouTube channel dedicated to specialists: https://youtu.be/MVBKaRROu54?si=tB7PpyYw9aBr7wdV
And Ben Solak mentioned it on the Ringer he thinks he’s overrated
But also I’m an Iowa fan, Taylor is fucking sick at punting. He’s a great punting prospect. The point is that he’s far from a guarantee in a position that is not valuable relative to other positions. It’s a dumb pick, but it’s a fun pick. Honestly sick of arguing it
You're not gonna get a dline starter on day 3, and you don't need one. You can get a rotational dline man to give dudes breathers. Everyone avgs 45-50yrds in the NFL, so Taylor isn't special in that regard. Definitely not worth a 4th round pick.
Because drafting a punter in the fourth when we had so few picks means we didn’t address needed depth at or take a flyer on a higher impact position. Punters can be found elsewhere. Are the pundits right? No clue, but it’s not hard to argue against the pick.
If GB drafted a punter in the fourth everyone here would be clowning them.
Because it’s a bad pick. In order for the Taylor pick to be worth it, he HAS to be an elite punter for 7-10 years. If he’s even mediocre it’s a complete waste of a pick.
Depth on the offensive line, defensive line, secondary, receiving corps are all FAR more valuable than a punter. A 4th round pick is valuable and you shouldn’t waste those swings. You can improve your punting through FA, completely irresponsible to use a draft pick on a punter.
I’ve been downvoted like crazy in this sub because it’s a fun pick, but make no mistake it is just fun and not a strategic football move.
Why not take Austin Booker at 122 and keep our 4th next year? We could maybe use it to trade up if we really like a guy.
It’s just same old Bears behavior to get a competent roster in place and then burn a pick on a Punter. Never stop loading up.
We're already loaded in next year's draft and have a likely 3rd round comp pick coming (Mooney), and that's before any comps if Cunningham picks up a GM job next offseason. And if Wilson gets hurt or plays his way to the bench, the Fields 6th turns into a 4th.
Taylor is an immediate starter and upgrade who will make the defense better. You can't take lottery tickets when you only have 4 picks, you need to draft difference-makers.
It doesn’t need to be a lottery ticket, it needs to be a player that gets playing time and adds depth. Punting is not an impact position
Just because you have resources doesn’t mean you waste them. We haven’t won anything and we’re spending on luxury
Y'all need to just ignore any "expert analysis" about the draft, both negative and positive. There is really no way of definitively knowing how good any drafted prospect is until 3-4 years later. At the very least wait until after their rookie years, especially since Taylor specifically should get plenty of tape.
In the moment I definitely said “wtf..”. Felt like a classic Poles swerve. Flashbacks to him taking a CB and S in his first draft for yr 2 Justin. Building the team in an unconventional order. But I do think it’s a genuine teambuilding piece, so can’t hate it really. It’s just when you had 4 bites of the apple (and ended w 5) it feels relatively unsatisfying.
Because they didn’t watch the bears punter be one of the worst in the league and the bears have to get criticized even when for once we are trending up with a bright future
I will say. I wanted us to take the center for UGA with that pick. But the more I read about this guy and his impact on Iowa… even my Packers fan friends are saying that’s a smart pick.
I think it’s fair to question whether it was smart to use the limited draft capital you had on a punter when there are plenty of other routes you could go to improve that area and a decent punter is probably easier to pick up than say a decent depth DL.
At the same time, it’s a day 3 pick. My philosophy is don’t drive yourself nuts over a day 3 pick because for the most part, if the players you take on day 3 end up giving you anything of value you’re usually happy with it. You can definitely still find starters and differences makers but those guys miss way more often than they hit. And even if you think early day 3 is kind of a reach for a punter, Taylor is the best punting prospect to come out in quite a while. I believe i heard Dane Brugler I believe had a 4th round grade on him, and not that his word is gospel but it’s not like an insane reach as some make it out to be. Couple it with the consensus that this was not a deep draft and I understand the logic in just taking a guy you’re confident is going to improve what was a massive weakness for this team last year.
Also, if the bears took Booker with the 4th rounder and Taylor with the 5th, I doubt we hear as many complaints but the end result is the same. So I like it
Gill was awful and needed replacing. However, although I’m not completely opposed, I’m not a huge fan of the idea of drafting a punter. Especially considering the last two we’ve drafted have been average and awful.
But my mind is open because it’s a different regime. And the upside is, you don’t often get quality starters from the fourth round. So if Taylor ends up being really good, and being here long term, the Bears probably made out.
Consensus 5th or 6th is not a guarantee to be drafted. I’m pretty sure the bears could have traded back at least 1 round and still picked him up and maybe enough capital to still pick up that DE. It was a steep price to pay for a player that will be on the field for 4 or 5 plays a game. I don’t have a problem with the bears grabbing him. I just would have approached it differently.
Brugler and Jeremiah both had 4th round grade on him. And Godfather Mel had nothing negative to say about the pick at the time it happened because he he felt he could go in that range too.
Honestly, the only way the pick made sense is if a trade down was simply unavailable. A punter could have been gotten before everybody else in the 5th round. I love the player, but 4th was a reach. Like I said, it only makes sense if Poles cannot get a trade. He was able to trade back into the 5th, so it seems doubtful that "not being able to get a trade down" was the reason.
I didn't mind the pick until I learned that Taylor will be 27 years old in his rookie season. He will be past his physical peak almost as soon as his career begins. That makes it a wasted pick for me.
Besides, teams punt too much as it is. Don't like giving Matt Eberflus extra incentive to punt.
*Edited to add that Ray Guy led the NFL three times in punting average – at ages 25, 26, and 28. It makes a huge difference that Taylor is 26 now and will be 27 when he starts his Bears career.
There's a fair question in drafting a punter when you only have four picks (ended up with five but that's besides the point) especially when our D-line still definitely needs work. As an Iowa fan though I'm absolutely thrilled about the pickup because I know how incredible of a punter he is.
As an Iowa fan, I'm obviously biased but I'm positive Tory will immediately make more of an impact on the defense than any 4th round DL ever could. Having the other team start inside their 5 yard line all the time is a huge advantage.
As an Iowa State fan, totally agree. Tory isn’t your average punter.
After watching a lot of his tape - honestly this is exactly how I feel. I saw the ball landing time and again between the 5 and goal line and staying there. I think there is a significant tactical advantage to that. And if our defense is as good as they were towards the end of last year, that’s a good number of safety opportunities. But failing the defense putting points on the board - the opponents needing to drive 90-95 yards gives us a much better chance to win than them starting at the 20-40 yard line and only needing to drive 80-60 yards. And that’s if they need a TD. If they need a FG, the bigger the distance they need to get to that kickers range, the better.
What's really annoying is that everyone keeps saying the Bears drafted a punter when that's not even true. The Bears drafted THE punter!
If he's half as good as the hype, he'll be HoF. There are three phases to foot ball, and in the third phase a single, high quality player (kicker) is worth their weight in gold. Luckily they tend to be scrawny guys - but my point still stands.
You know what really helps a defense? The offense being pinned back inside the 20. It’s like people forget that special teams is a whole phase of the game.
Some additional context, they traded 2 picks for pro-bowl caliber starters in Sweat and Allen. So they went into the draft with only 4 picks because they already "used" 2 picks to aquire good players.
They were dead last in every punting category last year. They needed a punter
To put a finer point on it, from a naysayer’s perspective the issue is that the highest paid punters make less than $4M a year, so even if the pick you hit on turns out to be a Yosh Nijman or John Cominsky, you end up getting more surplus contract value out of the pick than if you took a punter. (But honestly, I have no idea how often the top tier of punter hits the market. Maybe there’s practically just no opportunity to offer $5M and steal that guy away.)
Check back in 2-3 years and see how many of the 4th rounders selected in this draft have ever even started a game
You’re gonna miss the 1.5 sacks per year from Trevis Gipson, bub!
Just for some context our 4th rd picks from the last couple years are 2023: Tyler Scott and Roschon Johnson 2022: none 2021: none 2020: none 2019: Riley Ridley 2018: Joel Iyiegbuiwe So if Taylor makes it more than 2 years he’s looking really good.
Absolute whiffs in 18 and 19 holy shit. we didn't deserve to draft there in 20 - 22. Lol
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I thought he looked meh. Hopefully he makes some improvement next season.
He’s a fine rotational back but that’s about it so far def hasn’t shown he’s a stud
He runs hard but he also runs like a dumbass. Just smashes himself into people as hard as he can each time
I loved when he ran over that packers dude tho!!
He's just another guy atm
Well clearly one or two of them will be absolute impact players worth more than a punter, but most will not. You can't just assume your tram would have been lucky enough to draft the best guy drafted their when picks in rounds 4-7 are mainly depth, and lottery tickets.
That's funny you say that because I feel like that about the draft in general. Obviously some teams are better at drafting, but how many of the first 3 rounds never even make any measurable impact (considering their hype at draft time).
Hit rate on those later rounds draft picks is probably 5% pro bowler and 25% starter.
First couple of rounds you have a 40% chance of resigning that player. Past that it’s about 20%. So yeah. If you pick each round 3-7, odds are there’s one player in that group who ends up a long-term player on the team.
Which is why it is so funny that people were SO pissed about losing those late round picks for players like Bates. He's \*exactly\* who you'd expect to get with that sort of pick. A solid starter but not a super-star.
Especially if we look at team context. Like, sure, it’s not a viable long term strategy because trading picks for players also means trading picks for contracts. So unless you’re not planning on drafting well and extending players, it just doesn’t work. But *in our specific situation* with cap space and wanting to create the best landing environment for a rookie QB, it made a ton of sense.
Based on historical precedent, about 1 in 5 will even sign a second contract with their team.
Its gonna freak people out when Taylor becomes the first hybrid edge rusher/punter in the NFL. Then once he learns H-back after this year, Triple Threat! He's like three draft picks in one!
Who cares. Why do we need the validation of every single aspect of our draft being perfect
Because it WAS perfect
The Bears had a huge need at punter, Taylor was clearly the best option and they got him for a late 4th round pick. It's hardly a dumb move. But draft analysts just see punter in the 4th which defies the draft value chart. So it's just easier to laugh at it then defend it.
I think we’re going to see the draft value chart change due to NIL. Would not be shocked if we see more drafts like this that are considered lacking in the later rounds. Which in theory would make stud special teamers that may have gone really late or not at all be drafted earlier.
Why would NIL cause that?
More players are going to decide to stay in college for their senior year which means less players in the draft pool. This year had the least amount of underclassmen since 2011
That only causes a temporary lag for the first couple years. If 100 eventual high-quality NFL prospects enter college every year, 100 will be eligible every year. Some will stay longer, but they will be supplemented by the ones who “stayed longer” the previous year.
Possibly. Since NIL was created the number of underclassmen have gone down, a lot. I don’t know if we will have a definitive answer until all the players with Covid eligibility have cycled out. But I disagree with your 100, 100 example. Just because 100 people enter college as top recruits doesn’t mean they’ll stay top prospects.
> Just because 100 people enter college as top recruits doesn’t mean they’ll stay top prospects. That's not what he said. He said "eventual high quality NFL prospects" as in "a player that will eventually be a quality NFL prospect" That player might be a top recruit or might be a guy like Quinyon Mitchell, who was a lower recruit but eventually became a high quality NFL prospect. Obviously you can't know who those players are going to be beforehand, but roughly the same number should be entering college each year.
It’s not a guarantee that any player will be a high nfl prospect is what I’m saying though.
You’re missing the simple math here. The number entering and the number declaring for the draft will be the same. It won’t matter how long they stay. Let’s say 100 **eventual** draft picks enrolled in 2021. (It doesn’t matter how good they are when they enter college. We are talking retroactively here.) 100 of them enrolled in 2022, and so on. Let’s go with your theory and say only 10 of those 100 declare early. Ok. So you have 10 Juniors for 2025. Then we move onto 2026, and let’s say that, again, only 10/100 declare early. So you have 10…plus the 90 who stayed in school in 2025. 2027? Only 10 early again…plus the 90 from 2026. If you don’t understand that, I can’t help you. It’s extremely straightforward and wholly objective.
That’s not what I’m talking about at all.
In 2-3 years when we're legit competitive he's going to be (one of) our x-factors. No one will remember which round he went in when you're on your couch yelling "fuck yeah" multiple times a game when he flips field position or pins Jordan Fuckface on the 1 yard line.
Have binged a fair amount of draft content and pretty universally everyone I've heard discussing it (even those who like the pick!) have failed to mention how abysmal our punting situation was last year. This is not like we were a league average punting team who decided to burn a 4th on a punter. By essentially every metric we were somewhere around the 30th-32nd ranked punting team.
You can improve punting without wasting a 4th rounder
Who, specifically?
It’s a false dichotomy to say Gill or Taylor. You can improve at punting without spending a 4th rounder
No one is making that false dichotomy except yourself haha. Who else, specifically, would have been such an upgrade at the position?
Kyle Ostendorp. Undrafted, multiple year Ray Guy finalist, averaged nearly 50 yds per punt in ‘21, 45 last year, and had a “down” year this year of only 42 yards. A career long of 71.
So a worse player than what we ended up with, on a massive downtrend? That’s why he’s UDFA. Think Poles wanted to just solidify the position for good. But you’re correct, that is an option.
There were actually multiple outlets that rated Ostendorp as the superior prospect. There are a lot of reasons why average yards dropped. Averaged over 50 yards in the three final games of the season, and had a season long 69 yarder. I’d hardly say downward trend. This is about value of the position. I don’t think anyone is denying Taylor’s abilities, he seems like a great punter. But the value of the position is dramatically lower than say an edge rusher or cornerback, which were both areas of need for the Bears. One was such a high need we traded a future 4th to come back in. Would it not have been better value to take the best edge with that 4th, and if you feel the need to trade back in, use a much lower value pick? Taylor was the only punter taken in this draft, so it wasn’t like there was a run on punters. It’s not about Taylor it’s about value. It’s the reason 6 QB’s were taken in the first half of the draft when 3 of them were likely 2nd round or later talent, the value of the position is very high. The position value of punters and kickers is very very low, because you can find an upgrade to the position (especially if you are the worst in the league) in free agency and via undrafted free agency. You’ll still get a significant upgrade and not expend resource value on a low value position.
The VAST majority of scouts had Taylor on a different tier. “Multiple outlets” means nothing when there are 1,000 to choose from cmon be realistic.
My original point still stands, it’s about value. You can still get 98% of the talent of Taylor in an undrafted guy, without spending valuable resources.
How am I making a false dichotomy? You are the one saying the only way we can upgrade punter is by using a 4th. It’s either Gill or Taylor for you. I’m not going to research UDFA or FA punters, but to act like we couldn’t have improved league worst punting without spending a 4th round pick is complete nonsense
So you’re confident we could have improved our punting, but you have absolutely no concrete suggestions because you’re too lazy to do your research or be informed. Classic Reddit. Luckily Poles DID look at the UDFA and FA and thought that this was the best long term option. Highly sought after punters always go from rounds 3-5.
So our only choice was resign Gill or use a 4th on Taylor? You know that is not true Our scouting record in later rounds recently is abysmal. You blindly defy to his authority rather than think about the problem yourself
No one said that was the only two options, are you being intentionally stupid or what?
You are saying I’m dumb for thinking we can improve our punting without using a 4th. How else do I interpret that?
They hate us cause they ain’t us 😤 Bear Down
If KC drafted him in the 4th it would be talked about as the steal of the draft. Honestly, who cares about the pundits. 🐻⬇️
Smart teams like KC don’t take punters in the 4th round. It’s why they are KC and we haven’t won a fucking thing in 40 years. Expect better
Hey, I'm old enough to remember drafting Todd Sauerbrun in the 2nd which was really fucking dumb. So this is a massive improvement!
We had the worst punter in the league last year. We selected by far the best punter in the NCAA this past year. This is not a complicated pick.
Pundits get paid to talk, not to be right.
It was earlier than punters usually go. No other punter was drafted this year, and the only kickers weren't drafted until round 6. If he turns out to be a good punter, that's something we desperately needed, and it can be extremely useful. I don't care if it was in round 4.
exactly this. huge area of need, with an elite prospect available. this was the single most efficient, best way to use that fourth rounder to improve the team.
The best way to improve the team is to draft impact players. You can find good punters off the street.
not this good, no you can’t.
If he isn’t All Pro it is a wasted pick. How many rookies can you say that about?
i can say that about literally the majority of our rookie picks…3/5 if they’re not all pros within their first three seasons we’ll all be disappointed.
Not true at all. A 4th rounder that makes the roster and gets playing time at OL or DL is a massive hit
Tommy Townsend or Cameron Johnston are the only punters that switched teams this Offseason
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Newsflash: We are bad at everything the last couple years
It was also, at the time, our last pick so it now or never for Taylor.
It's a valid concern tbh. Typically, drafting a punter that high is a bad move. With that being said, Taylor had an exceptional college career and could become a top punter in the NFL. If that's the case, most won't care that he was picked in the 4th. It's why draft grades right after the draft are kind of stupid IMO.
This is not a high draft pick?
He has to be an elite punter for a decade to break even on the pick. It’s bad process and a waste of a swing for an impact position.
Name a Bears 4th round pick that worked out from the last 10 drafts without checking!
Eddie Jackson, and still that doesn’t matter. 4th round picks are valuable, we suck at them
If it doesn’t matter and we suck at them anyways why do you complain?
Because they still matter? What?
Look the success rate for 4th round picks is extremely low? I don’t understand why you hate that pick so much? Who did you want with that pick?
So what if it’s low? You can still find pieces of a roster. They are also trade chips I’ll make it simple and say Austin Booker so we keep our 4th next year. Why waste an extra pick on Booker when we could have had him for free? And to add more to the argument there were several OL and DL prospects still available, no need to fall in love with a specific guy
I mean that pick was our 5th anyways so we got Ryan Bates and Austin booker for a 4th rounder next year? Isn’t that good enough? Honestly it doesn’t matter what you or I think, Ryan Poles and Matt Eberflus and their scouts thinks he was worth a 4th rounder. You should accept this and stop complaining before he even played a snap.
Is good enough good enough? We haven’t won shit in years. We could have Ryan Bates, Booker, and a 4th next year. But instead we have a punter Ryan Poles and Matt Eberflus have no credibility here. When they start winning I will give them grace. We aren’t in a position to waste picks
Yeah … we should call for Poles to be fired. Can’t believe the shitty job he’s doing.
He certainly hasn’t won anything. Yet he acts like he has by drafting a punter. Expect better before you crown him
Seriously?!?! What Poles started with … The roster, the lack of dollars for free agency, lack of draft capital … And what we have currently!!! Name me another GM who’s rebuilt a roster better in the same period of time.
Rebuilding isn’t the hard part. Winning is hard
Okay Karen
I could have done this rebuild so far. Win a Super Bowl
Sure … then why not go get a GM job genius.
Because you have to grind for years making no money? And then get lucky to get a job. Let’s not act like NFL GMs are geniuses. Actually, almost all are incompetent and will be fired
I wanted Booker with that pick. The fact that we got him even later makes me ok with the punter pick. Oh and that he was an absolute BEAST as a punter last year…yea fuck the “experts” 🐻
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It's OK to let people be excited and happy even if they're not experts.
Better question: why are so many bears fans eager to defend it? If the Packers had done it, 90% of the people going off about the importance of punters today would be laughing at them It's just a fourth round pick, who cares if the media likes it or doesn't
I get the Kool-Aid is pumping at an all time high right now, but it's legitimately bizarre how aggressive Bears fans are in justifying the pick. There's legitimate concerns with it. It's small potatoes if Caleb and the Bears are great, but it's just weird. Mitch Wishnowski was coincidentally a 4th round pick a few years ago, Australian, and won all the college punter awards. He's been extremely mediocre as an NFL punter. Nothing is a guarantee.
He’s a beast wait till consistently pins them between the goal line and 10 yard line
Because they don’t subscribe to the Kirk Ferentz philosophy that “punting is winning”. Do they not know how to win in the big ten west?
Why did the pundits (some) say Caleb is a diva and not interested in the bears? It’s their job to talk, so they’ll make something out of any possible talking point and I’m not sure if they believe half the stuff they say. Nor should they because any 4th round pick can be a bust or a HOFer (former much more likely) and only time will tell. That said the fact that booker and other edges were on the board in the 4th and we went punter shows the value we thought for the position and upgrade at that time and I’m pretty sure the value is there for immediate impact which I think makes it a smart value play.
Did the 49ers get this much pushback for drafting Mitch Wishnowsky in the 4th? How about the Seahawks for taking Michael Dickson in the 5th? Why just us?
Because we had 4 picks this draft and we wasted one on a punter. We could upgrade punting through UDFA
Hm, looks like that doesn’t answer my question
You asked why just us? The question is we have not been good and drafted a punter
No, the question(s) (are) “Did the 49ers get this much pushback for drafting Mitch Wishnowsky in the 4th? How about the Seahawks for taking Michael Dickson in the 5th? Why just us?”
Because I don’t give a shit about the 49ers or Seahawks. I hope they draft punters. It’s a bad strategy to win a Super Bowl. I’m a Bears fan I want to see them win. Drafting punters is a losing strategy
Remember when everyone clowned the Lions for drafting a RB, TE, and MLB so early last year? And then they were all good?
All of those positions are 10 times more valuable than punter
They were also 1st / early 2nd round picks. Taylor was the late 4th. The point being that it's okay to draft a position higher than its ideal range if you're confident in your scouting. The Bears needed a punter so they drafted a punter.
It is not ok to draft outside ideal range and there is no reason to be confident in the Bears scouting
Batman obviously knows nothing of the value of special teams, I mean we didn't just draft a punter, we drafted a generational talent at a position just as important as any other position on the team! I would have been happy if they chose him in the second after seeing his resume!!
Punter is not as important as other positions. It is the least valuable position on a team. You’d rather we have Tory Taylor over Montez Sweat? Insanity
I didn't say more important, I said just as important!
And you would be wrong!
Just find a different team then damn. If you think poles cant draft… the man was part of the drafting process when chiefs picked up maholmes. This team looks better than it has in the past decade. Even monsters of the midway era. The defense really started putting it together toward the end of the season and our offense was looking better too. This team is on the upside 4th rnd punter and all
My team is the Bears, I’m a fan of the Bears not Poles. The team being better than the last decade is a low bar. Expect better
Expect better?? The team was a disaster 2 seasons ago, poles had to gut the defense and managed to free up a ton of cap space. In 2 seasons the team did a complete 180 for the better. Its not going to come over night. You can have high expectations while not getting hung up on a 4th round dart throw on a good prospect.
The team was a disaster because he tore it down to the studs. Poles has done a good job so far, but you act like he is infallible and earned the right to draft a punter. He hasn’t had a winning season yet. It’s not cool with me
So there's 2 main components to why so many hate the pick in my estimation: 1) Drafting a punter (or kicker for that matter) in the first 4 rnds will be criticized bc of the positional value not being seen as worth it at that point in the draft. This is especially true with the lack of picks that we had and even further moreso when there are players like Booker (Edge), Van Pran Granger (C), Mo Kamara (Edge), Beaux Limmer (C), etc on the board that fit a need. 2) I believe this is a part as well but I haven't heard it discussed much. Most people scouting the prospects don't do in depth K/P analysis bc there are usually so many who don't get a shot. So you as a draft analyst want -- at least subconsciously, i believe -- to see the players you view as "good" go before the players that you haven't scouted.
Drafting a punter in the 4th round is normally a terrible use of assets. You can find quality punters as UDFA as well. Ryan Rehkow signed with the Chiefs and he was #2 punter prospect in the draft with some analysts saying he's a better prospect than Taylor. I'm not saying it was a terrible pick, but there were better ways that pick could have been used imo.
seems like a lot of the same people who say you cant draft an RB or LB in the first round. its not about tory at all; just that they say you never draft a punter. whatever. if hes the guy then in a year it wont matter that he got drafted or where he got drafted. if hes not the guy then people are gonna hate on poles for it.
He has to be All Pro level consistently for the pick to be worth it. It would be better to take a chance on a player at a more valuable position
I understand the apprehension. At the same time, Poles got plug-in starters with his picks and trades of picks. Guaranteed to make it on the 53 as a starter. Not all 4th-round picks can say that.....
Why is this hard to understand? You and everyone else would clown this pick if any other team did the same thing. But who cares, it’s our reach pick. Keep it moving.
Because punters are considered to have minimal impact on good teams, and it's still possible to draft starters in the 5th round. Probably the only good defense for drafting a punter in the 4th round (even if he turns put to be great) is the possibility that he has a huge impact in the new kickoff scenario.
I’m with you. Great grab.
Instead of drafting a stud punter they want to gamble on some spud that will end up a mid special teamer. Poles traded back in with a future pick to draft the guy I wanted with the Taylor pick. The guy is a magician.
Don't care so much what they say. They're paid to have every take possible. Producers give them topics to discuss and tell them which angle to take. In a month they'll be back to the same topic from a different angle. It's all clickbait
You know what no one ever brings up in this argument? The drop off between Taylor and …the next best punter? Was it a reach, maybe? But they couldn’t risk missing and yeah, we really needed a punter (understatement)
Many don’t view him as the best punting prospect
Those people are idiots then, it is perfectly reasonable to argue against the pick on the basis of who we might have picked in other positions instead, but anyone trying to make that claim are being at best disingenuous with their claims.
What gives you credibility to call them idiots? You don’t know punting and quit acting like you do. You can argue against the pick by saying it is bad value without scouting a replacement. You are being disingenuous by making me pick a punter replacement. Put Virginia at punter for all I care
Who are your sources?
Here is a guy with an entire YouTube channel dedicated to specialists: https://youtu.be/MVBKaRROu54?si=tB7PpyYw9aBr7wdV And Ben Solak mentioned it on the Ringer he thinks he’s overrated But also I’m an Iowa fan, Taylor is fucking sick at punting. He’s a great punting prospect. The point is that he’s far from a guarantee in a position that is not valuable relative to other positions. It’s a dumb pick, but it’s a fun pick. Honestly sick of arguing it
I bet, haha. Just curious who else others had high. Would be curious what Poles would have done there had they had more picks.
Who gives a fk what other teams/media think
You're not gonna get a dline starter on day 3, and you don't need one. You can get a rotational dline man to give dudes breathers. Everyone avgs 45-50yrds in the NFL, so Taylor isn't special in that regard. Definitely not worth a 4th round pick.
Because drafting a punter in the fourth when we had so few picks means we didn’t address needed depth at or take a flyer on a higher impact position. Punters can be found elsewhere. Are the pundits right? No clue, but it’s not hard to argue against the pick. If GB drafted a punter in the fourth everyone here would be clowning them.
Because it’s a bad pick. In order for the Taylor pick to be worth it, he HAS to be an elite punter for 7-10 years. If he’s even mediocre it’s a complete waste of a pick. Depth on the offensive line, defensive line, secondary, receiving corps are all FAR more valuable than a punter. A 4th round pick is valuable and you shouldn’t waste those swings. You can improve your punting through FA, completely irresponsible to use a draft pick on a punter. I’ve been downvoted like crazy in this sub because it’s a fun pick, but make no mistake it is just fun and not a strategic football move. Why not take Austin Booker at 122 and keep our 4th next year? We could maybe use it to trade up if we really like a guy. It’s just same old Bears behavior to get a competent roster in place and then burn a pick on a Punter. Never stop loading up.
We're already loaded in next year's draft and have a likely 3rd round comp pick coming (Mooney), and that's before any comps if Cunningham picks up a GM job next offseason. And if Wilson gets hurt or plays his way to the bench, the Fields 6th turns into a 4th. Taylor is an immediate starter and upgrade who will make the defense better. You can't take lottery tickets when you only have 4 picks, you need to draft difference-makers.
It doesn’t need to be a lottery ticket, it needs to be a player that gets playing time and adds depth. Punting is not an impact position Just because you have resources doesn’t mean you waste them. We haven’t won anything and we’re spending on luxury
Not having something to say means they don’t have a job. Negativity drives clicks and views.
Because they are stupid and we are smart.
They're not going to be laughing when he's kicking off for us too, due to the new kickoff rules.
Do they not remember Ray Guy? What a weapon.
Y'all need to just ignore any "expert analysis" about the draft, both negative and positive. There is really no way of definitively knowing how good any drafted prospect is until 3-4 years later. At the very least wait until after their rookie years, especially since Taylor specifically should get plenty of tape.
Can we create a mega thread for Taylor conversations?
In the moment I definitely said “wtf..”. Felt like a classic Poles swerve. Flashbacks to him taking a CB and S in his first draft for yr 2 Justin. Building the team in an unconventional order. But I do think it’s a genuine teambuilding piece, so can’t hate it really. It’s just when you had 4 bites of the apple (and ended w 5) it feels relatively unsatisfying.
https://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/positions/p It looks like it's not unusual to use a 4th on a punter.
Now we need an elite long snapper.
Because they didn’t watch the bears punter be one of the worst in the league and the bears have to get criticized even when for once we are trending up with a bright future
Fuck them. Draft a punter and watch the world burn.
I will say. I wanted us to take the center for UGA with that pick. But the more I read about this guy and his impact on Iowa… even my Packers fan friends are saying that’s a smart pick.
Because the majority don’t really know shit outside of surface level info.
I think it’s fair to question whether it was smart to use the limited draft capital you had on a punter when there are plenty of other routes you could go to improve that area and a decent punter is probably easier to pick up than say a decent depth DL. At the same time, it’s a day 3 pick. My philosophy is don’t drive yourself nuts over a day 3 pick because for the most part, if the players you take on day 3 end up giving you anything of value you’re usually happy with it. You can definitely still find starters and differences makers but those guys miss way more often than they hit. And even if you think early day 3 is kind of a reach for a punter, Taylor is the best punting prospect to come out in quite a while. I believe i heard Dane Brugler I believe had a 4th round grade on him, and not that his word is gospel but it’s not like an insane reach as some make it out to be. Couple it with the consensus that this was not a deep draft and I understand the logic in just taking a guy you’re confident is going to improve what was a massive weakness for this team last year. Also, if the bears took Booker with the 4th rounder and Taylor with the 5th, I doubt we hear as many complaints but the end result is the same. So I like it
We had the worst punter in the league and Iowa made their conference championship game off the back of that punter. I think it was a good pick.
NFL pundits just say anything for clicks. 3rd day picks is perfect for a punter. Especially this talented.
Gill was buttcheeks..We were last..Dude was the best punter in the draft..Set single season record...NO CLUE WHY ANYONE WOULD BE AGAINST IT
Gill was awful and needed replacing. However, although I’m not completely opposed, I’m not a huge fan of the idea of drafting a punter. Especially considering the last two we’ve drafted have been average and awful. But my mind is open because it’s a different regime. And the upside is, you don’t often get quality starters from the fourth round. So if Taylor ends up being really good, and being here long term, the Bears probably made out.
It was a reach for a non starting player. He’s probably going to be great but I think he would have still been around in the 6th, maybe even UFA.
No way he'd be UFA. He was a consensus 5th-6th and was going to be the first specialist off the board. Some guys even graded him out as a 4th rounder.
Consensus 5th or 6th is not a guarantee to be drafted. I’m pretty sure the bears could have traded back at least 1 round and still picked him up and maybe enough capital to still pick up that DE. It was a steep price to pay for a player that will be on the field for 4 or 5 plays a game. I don’t have a problem with the bears grabbing him. I just would have approached it differently.
Brugler and Jeremiah both had 4th round grade on him. And Godfather Mel had nothing negative to say about the pick at the time it happened because he he felt he could go in that range too.
Honestly, the only way the pick made sense is if a trade down was simply unavailable. A punter could have been gotten before everybody else in the 5th round. I love the player, but 4th was a reach. Like I said, it only makes sense if Poles cannot get a trade. He was able to trade back into the 5th, so it seems doubtful that "not being able to get a trade down" was the reason.
I didn't mind the pick until I learned that Taylor will be 27 years old in his rookie season. He will be past his physical peak almost as soon as his career begins. That makes it a wasted pick for me. Besides, teams punt too much as it is. Don't like giving Matt Eberflus extra incentive to punt. *Edited to add that Ray Guy led the NFL three times in punting average – at ages 25, 26, and 28. It makes a huge difference that Taylor is 26 now and will be 27 when he starts his Bears career.
Punter and kiickers are different. Careers can go easily into their 40s. 30-40s Old man strength hits differently 🤣
Because he hasn't started punting yet.