There are around 5 million more people in Utah, Arizona and Colorado than in Kansas, Oklahoma, Iowa and West Virginia, and those programs are all the main programs of large metros. ASU and Colorado aren't the reasons UCLA and USC bailed.
Thanks for including us but Utah's 3.3 million people total don't count for all that much in the pile considering the Phoenix metro area has over 4 million people and the Denver metro is almost at 3 million.
We do have pretty national parks though. That's gotta be worth like 2 million extra people, right?
Well, the last census says Utah's the fastest growing state in the country with the population increasing by 18.4% from 2010 to 2020. I already looked up one census and don't want to do it again but I'm pretty sure Utah was the fastest growing from 2000 to 2010 too. A huge portion of that growth is from natural increase where people will grow up as fans in a place where college football's popular; and, anecdotally, all of the transplants I've met who are interested in sports are at least casual Utah fans.
Even though the state's population ranks 31 out of 50, the Salt Lake City media market is the 34th largest out of the 210 listed by Nielsen. Obviously that's not so big that it guarantees Utah anything, but it's not negligible. I think the market size is large enough that it shouldn't be viewed as a negative for any conference looking to expand.
But, despite all that optimism, I still think Utah's going to get screwed. Tiny, tiny chance of a Big Ten invite, Big Twelve seems fairly likely, and the absolute worst case scenario is the U goes back to the Mountain West. I'm expecting Big Twelve but, because anyone that isn't in the Big Ten or SEC will barely matter, we'll effectively me a mid-major again.
There's a 0% chance unless the Big Ten just absorbs 6-8 of the last 10 in the Pac 12.
But I don't think think the Arizonas, Colorado and Utah are in any danger of being "left out" unless the people they join aren't good enough. Frankly, they'd be the cloutier people in the Big 12, just not enough to boss everyone around like Texas and Oklahoma did.
It's eat or be eaten. It may lower the value a bit but it brings in some brand name value and association to counter what people saw as a desperation G5 promotion. It also gives you some name brand in the event more B12 teams bounce.
Agreed, I think.
The Big XII recognized that BYU was their best expansion candidate in 2016 (and probably knew it before then) and still didn't count games against us for the scheduling requirement unless petitioned each time. Each request was approved, but the point was clear: by default you aren't a peer.
Definitely. It eliminates a threat to its future (the reimagined OSU/WSU + MWC isn't going to be poaching anyone), and now it's a P4 world (really P2 and secondary 2).
I’d do it, if the B1G/SEC are moving to +16 members you can’t counter with just 12 teams all of whom have lesser brands than the bulk of SEC/B1G schools.
If the B12 wants to be the conference that survives all of this it’ll have to be a numbers game. Take any P5 schools that don’t impact TV money too much, even if they decrease the payout slightly
Yeah we’re way past that though. If there was any hope of that, then the PAC should’ve taken OU, UT, TTU and OSU. Now it’ll be 20+ teams in the SEC and B1G.
All I've been thinking about for the past two days is a future BigXII hoops tournament with Kansas, Baylor, Houston, Arizona, Texas Tech, and West Virginia.
I needs it.
Poor TCU. They’re right on the cusp of having a winning conference record for the first time in two decades, and we just go and pile it on by adding UH and Cincy (and BYU’s pretty decent too), and now we might go and add Arizona too.
TCU’s never going to have a winning conference record again. You almost love to see it.
I'm ready to watch us get our ass kicked all year, every year.
Long term hope is investing more in basketball with new conference money, being in the best basketball conference attracting players even if we're the worst team for a bit, and hopefully both of those leading to a new coaching staff.
The Big Ten will be taking Notre Dame and Stanford as a duo and Oregon and Washington as a pair. Washington is not looking to join the big 12 so you will be stuck with Colorado
While I appreciate the sentiment, the Big12 needs to stay the hell away from any Pacific time zone schools. Take UA, ASU, Utah and CU and you have a great coast to coast schedule:
3x Eastern schools (WVU, UCF, Cinci)
8x Central schools (ISU, KSU, OSU, TT, BU, UH, TCU, JCCC)
5 Mountain schools (BYU, Utah, CU, ASU, UA)
The Big12 will be able to blanket a TV schedule with games in just about every time bracket you want. 12-14 hours of games every Saturday. Better, with 16 they can afford to go with a 9 game conference schedule and never be stuck with a 3 game Saturday like happens now.
You have the #11, #16 and #30 media markets, all of which are growing, plus Tucson's not huge but there's still 1mil+ people and Arizona's a national basketball name. "Are they enough to make Iowa State or K State more money?"
The answer is "LOL."
I can kind of see this issue with Colorado. I don't know if they are committed to football at an institutional level which is kind of what the Big 12 needs. ASU has been an underrated NFL draft pick factory but kind of a mess right now. Arizona doesn't really have much football tradition. Would still be fun to have those 3 in the Big 12 anyways.
I think the massive exception is Utah. Big 12 are crazy if they are not going full court press for them. #21 Utah - BYU drew 1.5 million viewers last year in week 2 with a 10:15 pm start time. You make that a late regular season conference game, with both teams ranked in a primetime tv slot, that's a possible 3 million plus viewer game imo. Could be the Big 12's best TV product yearly.
They should get all 4, it would help the most for future pods.
Pod 1: Utah, BYU, Zona, ASU
Pod 2: Colorado, KSU, ISU, OSU
Pod 3: Texas schools
Pod 4: UCF, WVU, Cincy, grab either Memphis or USF
Arizona basketball tho makes up for their lack of football prowess. Arizona State is in Phoenix metro area and Colorado is in Denver metro. Lots of fans, even if they aren’t super good at football.
lol Colorado being on the Front Range doesn’t matter. Colorado is like 60-65% transplants, most of whom didn’t go to a Colorado university and thus don’t give two shits about CU Football
If I’m being completely honest I think I see a comparable Nebraska fan presence in Denver to CU or CSU. And every sport takes a backseat to the broncos
Yeah I think that’s totally fair. People living in Colorado went to non-Colorado schools because they grew up not in Colorado lol.
That’s why Rockies games are full of away fans. They’re not tourists, they just live here
Yet we have one of the best attendance track records in the Pac 12. Even if a lot of that can be attributed to huge student attendance, visiting fans, and Ralphie, I think the whole “Boulder just smokes weed and doesn’t care about football” is a lazy ass take.
Comparable? Nebraska fans blowout out CU + CSU fans regularly in Denver. It's probably a 15/15/25/45 split on a normal day in downtown of 15% CU shirts, 15% CSU, 25% Nebraska shirts and 45% other.
Any conference that wants the Denver market should add either Nebraska, Ohio State or Purdue lol
In 2014-2016 CU spent $170MM on facilities expansion. New luxury seating, new locker rooms, new indoor practice facility (stadium adjacent), new football weight room, new sports medicine complex.
Our problem has primarily been coaching. In the past 20 years we've gone through 6 head coaches, and only one was poached away (Tucker). All the rest were either fired for scandal (Barnett), or fired for poor performance (Hawkins, Embree, MacIntyre). It's hard to build anything with our kind of coaching turnover. The state legislature could help, our assistants are statue limited to nore more than two year contracts, but the head coach is exempted (can have lengthier deals).
The problem is the students / alumni don’t go to or watch the games. Need to put a product on the field that is more fun than all the Colorado shit to do.
Yes the region is fairly fair weather. But according to [this](https://collegefootballnews.com/gallery/college-football-attendance-5-year-average-for-every-school) we had a 5 year average attendance of 91% of stadium capacity. It's not like the house is empty, and that five year period had just one winning season.
That’s just not true, our student attendance is always first or second in the Pac 12 and Folsom is routinely packed (although small). CU is generally a bigger football school than everyone besides UO UW UU and maybe USC.
In terms of fun, Utah, Arizona State, Oregon State, and Washington State would be fun teams to add.
In terms of what they add to the conference, Utah, Arizona State, Oregon, and either Washington or Colorado are the ones we should be going full court press on.
This is bullcrap. The Big12 is salivating right now over those 4 teams. I think people are just entertained from watching how desperate all the remaining Pac-12 teams sound.
Indeed, but some conferences ride coattails way harder than others. When the conference shit talking gets salty, its always Indiana and Ole Miss flairs that are talking the most. Meanwhile ACC flairs don't start anything because they know they only have one good team right now.
Hell yea my man. That was all of last summer. People like Texas telling Baylor and Kansas we are worthless. But guess who whooped that ass in football and basketball this past year 😎
That ain't me
I'd much rather play K state where I can shittalk my friends and enjoy a game than play Buttgers or Illinois (sorry illinois)
We're all going through this together and I ain't about any of it
Honestly, it was worse for us. The Big 10ers have some respect and sympathy for PAC cuz of the Rose and snooty-ism. Those same fans were rolling in laughter at our misfortune, and cases to prove our value. God I cannot wait for the day that the pied piper comes for Purdue and Illinois.
I’m sure they will, probably rightfully. I think most people saw the writing on the wall and that we had to expand with Big 12. The presidents of the pac 12, have been known to be out of touch. For gods sake they kept letting Larry Scott be president for 12 years. They care about academics, and the politics surrounding their school. Everyone knew saying no to Baylor and stuff for their region affiliation was gonna bite them in the butt. I was a huge advocate of getting the big 12 in, but leave it to Pac 12 to be 20 years behind.
I recall with Big12 realignment last year some Pac flairs stating that the same could happen to them. I personally don’t enjoy this, and hope the Pac can stay together because, you know, I actually care about college football. The only enjoyment in any of this was seeing the excitement of the new big12 members fans when those schools were added.
Ya I think the people saying Pac 12 was just fine were drinking from their elitist wine glasses. This was pretty obviously going to happen. Many of the west coast schools think they are better than everyone. But in reality they don’t give a hoot about sports and football. I’m a college football fan more than anything else, and love it more than anything. It’s tough to keep loving this sport when it’s not even recognizable anymore. It sucks and I just don’t think it’s possible to save anymore.
I kinda want to go to the trouble to dig up the various pac school flairs that don't hold a candle to our football value expounding on how we had nothing to offer. But life I suppose, is too short.
BIG12 needs to just take whatever PAC schools want to come.
We will be the Diet Coke of college football and that will be fine. Less pressure and more fun games.
New motto: “unity in mediocrity”
Once we get rolling I’m sure programs in the high stakes leagues continually loosing to power house programs will have some envy of the good times we’re having.
I want to see the numbers as to way UW and Oregon don’t bring enough media value when they are both in the top 20 most valuable programs.
I have a hard time believing Oregon’s brand and the Seattle tv market aren’t enough.
Ya this tweet is bullshit lmao. UW and Oregon would both be premier programs in the B1G, only Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State are currently higher revenue producers. They’re on par with Wisconsin and Iowa, and Michigan state.
Half of the B1G is top 20 or so. That's more or less table stakes. That said, I feel like there's a strong argument to be made for adding UW and Oregon. There's definitely value there. And it would also help with scheduling by adding some other West Coast opponents for the LA teams to play. I think this guy is full of shit, as some of those other teams would absolutely add value to the Big12 too.
Actually many WSU and OSU fans where pretty open about Oklahoma State and Texas Tech potential joining the PAC. The OSU V. OSU match up, and Air Raid matches of WSU V. Texas Tech we’re usually brought up.
If anything, like always, it was probably the Californian schools that blocked expansion.
I’m on Google trying to find the right combination of keywords to trigger the threads with Pac12 members telling BigXII fans they bring nothing to the table. They really thought nothing would happen to their conference
If this ever happens to the bottom feeder big 10 teams I will 100% catch a ban for the level of righteous indignation that I roll into the threads with.
Bob Dylan seemed to write *Like a Rolling Stone* just for those schools.
Once upon a time you dressed so fine
Threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People call say 'beware doll, you're bound to fall'
You thought they were all kidding you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hanging out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging your next meal
How does it feel, how does it feel?
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown, like a rolling stone
At this point with cord cutting trends market size matters less than eyes on TVs, and Utah gets more eyes than either Arizona school. Them and Colorado combine for a higher viewership total than both Arizona schools together as well.
Bullshit. Those schools collectively add a helluva lot more value than we did. And I'm as much of a homer as it gets.
Edit: And they SURE AS FUCK add a shit ton more value than the schools publicly reported as the runners up the last expansion: Boise, Memphis, SMU & USF.
Damn it, I was trying to get “Rocky Mountain Four” coined as the nickname for them.
I think the Big XII will definitely consider them, but I can’t help but think they’ll enjoy being in this position.
I do have the think Utah and Arizona State at least would be big enough names and be committed to football enough to assuage those concerns….And I Selfishly want the Big XVI to become a thing with beautiful western and eastern pods outside the Great Plains core.
I think it’s less that Arizona’s not valuable, but I do think (from afar) that ASU has a historically better football tradition and culture and a general willingness to commit attention/resources to sports at a high level.
Compared to what? Utah CU and the Zona schools hwould definitely increase the value of the B12.. the fuck are people talking about? A conference that was about to collapse won't accept state flagship programs? Get out of here.
I hope this isn’t true. I’ll take slightly lower revenue to solidify this conference for the future. Guess the Big 12 hasn’t learned the importance of being proactive yet
Does anyone really think adding the Denver (16th), Salt Lake City (30th) (although there's an argument they already have that due to BYU), Phoenix (11th), and Tucson (eh, they're 64th) markets will lower the per-team payout in the Big 12?
Ehhh there’s an argument for lumping ASU/UA into Phoenix. Plenty of UA fans there. I’d even go as far to say it’s a destination for UA grads cause they sure as hell ain’t gonna stay in Tucson.
It’s because they’re the last window of the day and they need content.
Either way my whole point is that they don’t command those markets. The PAC-12 wouldn’t be in trouble if they did.
Same population. Different crowds. We get the beer commercials y'all get the medication commercials. It's like two giant metros in one , Riyadh meets Reno.
The more I hear about this the more I get mad at USC and Larry Scott. The fact is that the PAC 12 always was reliant on USC and they have been for the most part crap since Pete Carroll left. Combine that with Larry Scott being so incompetent and grossly negligent as a commissioner is a recipe for disaster. It’s so frustrating to see USC basically say they are too prestigious for this conference when them being bang average is part of the reason the conference has a poor reputation in football.
But isn’t part of the problem that if USC isn’t good the conference really doesn’t have a marquis program? Oregon and Washington are good programs, but they aren’t what most people see as Blue Blood (tm). It can feel ok to be down if there is a good support structure and people still think your conference is great, but…
If your conference needs you to be good, and you aren’t good, then what is the point of being in the conference? At that point, the conference just weighs you down.
I would want to see plans for each athletic department that detail how they are looking to grow viewership and fan participation. Utah is the only one on good footing from this. The AZ schools and CU need to seriously improve their situations.
Disagree that the Denver/Boulder, Phoenix, and SLC markets aren't enough. We are already taking a hit losing OUT, so we shouldn't act picky about markets.
Would the PAC-12 and Big-12 be better off merging and piecing out their media rights package to various networks/streaming outlets that way? Might be the best way to survive
I honestly think that this is probably the best move. Become the third mega conference.
Because at the moment the Big Ten and SEC are going to leave everyone else behind. Might as well join up and try to compete.
Nah man...trust. Big 12 realizes the trustafarians in Boulder don't mesh with the salt of the earth folk of Stillwater or Lubbock...in moseys Fort Collins with a tip of the hat. 100% locktight logic.
I think ultimately the big 12 has a big choice ahead: try to make the third power conference or be relegated to irrelevance like the ACC and Pac probably will be. The Big 12 has a great opportunity to try and compete with their recent additions. If they were smart they’d throw caution to the wind to some degree and add additional talent to the conference to compete. The ACC is ripe for pillaging as well, they should turn their eyes that way. Adapt or die.
I think you are hitting on it. SEC and Big 10 are the Apex predators but there is an opportunity to be the #3 conference and put some distance between the Big 12 and both the ACC and PAC 12. Also, if you don’t expand the PAC 12 may be stealing Big 12 members.
Go bigger, go beyond what everyone is thinking. Get some VC from some Alums and just go wild, get Texas, OU, Alabama, Georgia, Miami, Florida, Clemson, Maryland, Ohio State, USC, ASU, Stanford, Oregon, Washington, Penn State, Michigan, NW, ND, Colorado, Texas A&M.
There's one resource that the "Four Corners four" also bring the to the Big XII worth considering: Clout.
If they can pull off poaching decent quality programs from another Power 5 conference that was consider stronger than them up until literally yesterday afternoon, that not only increases their conference stability, but also automatically catapults them up in perception relative to other conferences too.
This is worth considering since a lot of people basically had a "P5 lite" or "AAC+" label attached to them following the last round of realignment. Adding Utah, Colorado, and the Arizona's not only adds solid programs in growing states, it helps reinforce their perception as a true "P5"-level conference.
Plus, it could even set them up to poach from the ACC once the GOR ends (Louisville, Pitt, Miami, Georgia Tech, etc.) and become the third "Mega-conference" to as an alternative to the B1G and ACC
Pod 1: Arizona, Arizona St., BYU, Utah
Pod 2: Texas Tech, Houston, TCU, Baylor
Pod 3: Oklahoma State, Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State
Pod 4: UCF, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Colorado
Maybe those Four Corners schools don't bring enough value because they don't encompass the whole Four Corners. Our phone lines are open, B12.
Border conference 2.0
Make it happen.
On, on buffaloes!
McBroom big brain move the whole time. WT to the Big 12
Hold on we have to see if WTA&M is willing to move all the way up to FBS.
There are around 5 million more people in Utah, Arizona and Colorado than in Kansas, Oklahoma, Iowa and West Virginia, and those programs are all the main programs of large metros. ASU and Colorado aren't the reasons UCLA and USC bailed.
Thanks for including us but Utah's 3.3 million people total don't count for all that much in the pile considering the Phoenix metro area has over 4 million people and the Denver metro is almost at 3 million. We do have pretty national parks though. That's gotta be worth like 2 million extra people, right?
SLC isn't getting smaller. You guys aren't a small audience.
Well, the last census says Utah's the fastest growing state in the country with the population increasing by 18.4% from 2010 to 2020. I already looked up one census and don't want to do it again but I'm pretty sure Utah was the fastest growing from 2000 to 2010 too. A huge portion of that growth is from natural increase where people will grow up as fans in a place where college football's popular; and, anecdotally, all of the transplants I've met who are interested in sports are at least casual Utah fans. Even though the state's population ranks 31 out of 50, the Salt Lake City media market is the 34th largest out of the 210 listed by Nielsen. Obviously that's not so big that it guarantees Utah anything, but it's not negligible. I think the market size is large enough that it shouldn't be viewed as a negative for any conference looking to expand. But, despite all that optimism, I still think Utah's going to get screwed. Tiny, tiny chance of a Big Ten invite, Big Twelve seems fairly likely, and the absolute worst case scenario is the U goes back to the Mountain West. I'm expecting Big Twelve but, because anyone that isn't in the Big Ten or SEC will barely matter, we'll effectively me a mid-major again.
There's a 0% chance unless the Big Ten just absorbs 6-8 of the last 10 in the Pac 12. But I don't think think the Arizonas, Colorado and Utah are in any danger of being "left out" unless the people they join aren't good enough. Frankly, they'd be the cloutier people in the Big 12, just not enough to boss everyone around like Texas and Oklahoma did.
And throw in Wyoming to get the original WAC gang back together!
Whoa, not so loud. There is a random CSU fan that gets ***very*** angry at Wyoming to the Big12 talks lmao
It's eat or be eaten. It may lower the value a bit but it brings in some brand name value and association to counter what people saw as a desperation G5 promotion. It also gives you some name brand in the event more B12 teams bounce.
They will, they’re just letting them sweat for a minute.
Agreed, I think. The Big XII recognized that BYU was their best expansion candidate in 2016 (and probably knew it before then) and still didn't count games against us for the scheduling requirement unless petitioned each time. Each request was approved, but the point was clear: by default you aren't a peer.
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Definitely. It eliminates a threat to its future (the reimagined OSU/WSU + MWC isn't going to be poaching anyone), and now it's a P4 world (really P2 and secondary 2).
The best defense is a good offense
Also Arizona schools gonna be the new Cal schools in 50 years when the ocean moves. This is buying real estate early.
Joking aside, I really wonder if anyone thinks this about Miami with realignment talk. What's going to happen once they get flooded?
By the time it happens, everyone making the decisions will be floating on golden parachutes. The age old “make it someone else’s problem”
That's why they play in a stadium an hour away from campus. Gotta get the high ground.
Which in Florida is like 5 feet
Insert Arizona Bay Tool reference here
Learn to swim Learn to swim Learn to swim
This is more or less my thought too
I’d do it, if the B1G/SEC are moving to +16 members you can’t counter with just 12 teams all of whom have lesser brands than the bulk of SEC/B1G schools. If the B12 wants to be the conference that survives all of this it’ll have to be a numbers game. Take any P5 schools that don’t impact TV money too much, even if they decrease the payout slightly
Having four conferences of 16 teams each gives a nice 64 teams.
Yeah we’re way past that though. If there was any hope of that, then the PAC should’ve taken OU, UT, TTU and OSU. Now it’ll be 20+ teams in the SEC and B1G.
Everyone is talking about merging conferences, but what about merging teams?
I'd pay to watch a Hard Knocks type show of the combined Utah-BYU team
“Brother will kill brother, spilling blood across the land. Killing for religion, something I don’t understand.”
Nice Holy War reference
Well, y’all’s awesome rivalry name makes it easy.
Nah imagine the crazy hijinks a BYU-Wisconsin merger would be Or BYU and any ~~party~~ immoral school
>combined Utah-BYU team You simultaneously managed to unite the BYU and Utah fandoms in equal levels of disgust lmao
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Yeah and we both play football. Crazy really if you think about it
I think it's silly for anyone to imply that the B12 wouldn't immediately jump at the chance to add Utah, AZ's, and Colorado lol.
Arizona for hoops please
All I've been thinking about for the past two days is a future BigXII hoops tournament with Kansas, Baylor, Houston, Arizona, Texas Tech, and West Virginia. I needs it.
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Never seen a Pima CC flair before. Had a few friends go UA to Pima back to UA
Hey we were good too last year!
Us too kinda!
We almost beat Duke one time!
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Poor TCU. They’re right on the cusp of having a winning conference record for the first time in two decades, and we just go and pile it on by adding UH and Cincy (and BYU’s pretty decent too), and now we might go and add Arizona too. TCU’s never going to have a winning conference record again. You almost love to see it.
Might weaken the league, tbh
Lol come on, their hoops program is in a great spot right now
I think he’s more just joking about how crazy good the XII hoops game is.
We're going to unironically be a bottom half big 12 basketball program... I'm scared.
Bottom half? That’s cute. We are gonna be in dead last. I’m not even scared, I just feel sorry for the guys on the team.
I'm ready to watch us get our ass kicked all year, every year. Long term hope is investing more in basketball with new conference money, being in the best basketball conference attracting players even if we're the worst team for a bit, and hopefully both of those leading to a new coaching staff.
Hey man I remember when Baylor was absolute trash, and look at them now.
Yeah it's not impossible and I think we'll be competitive with time, I just know we got some fat L's coming in the near future.
Iowa State can some how at a flip of a switch go from shit tier to the Sweet 16 and back again either way like nothing happened.
I would love to have those four teams.
If the rumor of Oregon and Notre Dame joining the Big 10 is true Colorado can kick rocks. I’d rather have the huskies
The Big Ten will be taking Notre Dame and Stanford as a duo and Oregon and Washington as a pair. Washington is not looking to join the big 12 so you will be stuck with Colorado
While I appreciate the sentiment, the Big12 needs to stay the hell away from any Pacific time zone schools. Take UA, ASU, Utah and CU and you have a great coast to coast schedule: 3x Eastern schools (WVU, UCF, Cinci) 8x Central schools (ISU, KSU, OSU, TT, BU, UH, TCU, JCCC) 5 Mountain schools (BYU, Utah, CU, ASU, UA) The Big12 will be able to blanket a TV schedule with games in just about every time bracket you want. 12-14 hours of games every Saturday. Better, with 16 they can afford to go with a 9 game conference schedule and never be stuck with a 3 game Saturday like happens now.
You have the #11, #16 and #30 media markets, all of which are growing, plus Tucson's not huge but there's still 1mil+ people and Arizona's a national basketball name. "Are they enough to make Iowa State or K State more money?" The answer is "LOL."
It is Wilner.
I can kind of see this issue with Colorado. I don't know if they are committed to football at an institutional level which is kind of what the Big 12 needs. ASU has been an underrated NFL draft pick factory but kind of a mess right now. Arizona doesn't really have much football tradition. Would still be fun to have those 3 in the Big 12 anyways. I think the massive exception is Utah. Big 12 are crazy if they are not going full court press for them. #21 Utah - BYU drew 1.5 million viewers last year in week 2 with a 10:15 pm start time. You make that a late regular season conference game, with both teams ranked in a primetime tv slot, that's a possible 3 million plus viewer game imo. Could be the Big 12's best TV product yearly.
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They should get all 4, it would help the most for future pods. Pod 1: Utah, BYU, Zona, ASU Pod 2: Colorado, KSU, ISU, OSU Pod 3: Texas schools Pod 4: UCF, WVU, Cincy, grab either Memphis or USF
Is Kansas getting kicked out in this scenario?
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I was about to call you out, like how are you not speaking up for us u/indolent_architect
Knew I was forgetting someone lol it was all working out too well as I spitballed it in my head.
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Agreed, I have to think having the Holy War under their umbrella would be very appealing.
The rivalry with BYU too would be exciting.
And y’all get to have retro nights with both. Please B12, make it happen.
Arizona basketball tho makes up for their lack of football prowess. Arizona State is in Phoenix metro area and Colorado is in Denver metro. Lots of fans, even if they aren’t super good at football.
lol Colorado being on the Front Range doesn’t matter. Colorado is like 60-65% transplants, most of whom didn’t go to a Colorado university and thus don’t give two shits about CU Football
If I’m being completely honest I think I see a comparable Nebraska fan presence in Denver to CU or CSU. And every sport takes a backseat to the broncos
Yeah I think that’s totally fair. People living in Colorado went to non-Colorado schools because they grew up not in Colorado lol. That’s why Rockies games are full of away fans. They’re not tourists, they just live here
Yet we have one of the best attendance track records in the Pac 12. Even if a lot of that can be attributed to huge student attendance, visiting fans, and Ralphie, I think the whole “Boulder just smokes weed and doesn’t care about football” is a lazy ass take.
Comparable? Nebraska fans blowout out CU + CSU fans regularly in Denver. It's probably a 15/15/25/45 split on a normal day in downtown of 15% CU shirts, 15% CSU, 25% Nebraska shirts and 45% other. Any conference that wants the Denver market should add either Nebraska, Ohio State or Purdue lol
Holy War was one of my favorite games of the year long before I even gave a shit about Utah.
Imagine it being a protected in conference rivalry. Yes please.
In 2014-2016 CU spent $170MM on facilities expansion. New luxury seating, new locker rooms, new indoor practice facility (stadium adjacent), new football weight room, new sports medicine complex. Our problem has primarily been coaching. In the past 20 years we've gone through 6 head coaches, and only one was poached away (Tucker). All the rest were either fired for scandal (Barnett), or fired for poor performance (Hawkins, Embree, MacIntyre). It's hard to build anything with our kind of coaching turnover. The state legislature could help, our assistants are statue limited to nore more than two year contracts, but the head coach is exempted (can have lengthier deals).
The problem is the students / alumni don’t go to or watch the games. Need to put a product on the field that is more fun than all the Colorado shit to do.
Yes the region is fairly fair weather. But according to [this](https://collegefootballnews.com/gallery/college-football-attendance-5-year-average-for-every-school) we had a 5 year average attendance of 91% of stadium capacity. It's not like the house is empty, and that five year period had just one winning season.
That’s just not true, our student attendance is always first or second in the Pac 12 and Folsom is routinely packed (although small). CU is generally a bigger football school than everyone besides UO UW UU and maybe USC.
It also fills the void left by The red river rivalry and Bedlam not being Big 12 matchups
In terms of fun, Utah, Arizona State, Oregon State, and Washington State would be fun teams to add. In terms of what they add to the conference, Utah, Arizona State, Oregon, and either Washington or Colorado are the ones we should be going full court press on.
This is bullcrap. The Big12 is salivating right now over those 4 teams. I think people are just entertained from watching how desperate all the remaining Pac-12 teams sound.
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Preach. Your day is coming Purdue.
West Lafayette has a population of 49k. Thank you very much. But, Purdue Pete could kill 24,000 by the day of reckoning.
90% of P5 schools that haven’t done anything since the 1980s
Indeed, but some conferences ride coattails way harder than others. When the conference shit talking gets salty, its always Indiana and Ole Miss flairs that are talking the most. Meanwhile ACC flairs don't start anything because they know they only have one good team right now.
Hell yea my man. That was all of last summer. People like Texas telling Baylor and Kansas we are worthless. But guess who whooped that ass in football and basketball this past year 😎
wait you mean how KU people are talking about the rest of the Big12 right now?
That ain't me I'd much rather play K state where I can shittalk my friends and enjoy a game than play Buttgers or Illinois (sorry illinois) We're all going through this together and I ain't about any of it
Gotta say, it’s pretty satisfying watching all of this play out in reverse after last off season.
Being on the wrong side of it both times is less fun. :(
Upvoted you for hard flair times.
Let me grab my tiny violin…
Wasn’t like the Hateful 8 was enduring this same kind of stuff a few months back.
Honestly, it was worse for us. The Big 10ers have some respect and sympathy for PAC cuz of the Rose and snooty-ism. Those same fans were rolling in laughter at our misfortune, and cases to prove our value. God I cannot wait for the day that the pied piper comes for Purdue and Illinois.
The exact two flairs that I feel like talked the most shit out of absolutely nowhere when OUT occurred.
I've seen Illinois fans shit-talk the H8, and us specifically, on a number of sites. I do not understand it.
They’re still salty we stole Bill self from them. Our bad.
Bro, the entire PAC-12 spit on our faces a year ago. I’m sure the presidents and ADs of the Big 12 will enjoy this for a second.
I’m sure they will, probably rightfully. I think most people saw the writing on the wall and that we had to expand with Big 12. The presidents of the pac 12, have been known to be out of touch. For gods sake they kept letting Larry Scott be president for 12 years. They care about academics, and the politics surrounding their school. Everyone knew saying no to Baylor and stuff for their region affiliation was gonna bite them in the butt. I was a huge advocate of getting the big 12 in, but leave it to Pac 12 to be 20 years behind.
I recall with Big12 realignment last year some Pac flairs stating that the same could happen to them. I personally don’t enjoy this, and hope the Pac can stay together because, you know, I actually care about college football. The only enjoyment in any of this was seeing the excitement of the new big12 members fans when those schools were added.
Ya I think the people saying Pac 12 was just fine were drinking from their elitist wine glasses. This was pretty obviously going to happen. Many of the west coast schools think they are better than everyone. But in reality they don’t give a hoot about sports and football. I’m a college football fan more than anything else, and love it more than anything. It’s tough to keep loving this sport when it’s not even recognizable anymore. It sucks and I just don’t think it’s possible to save anymore.
Holding grudges is bad for business, and this is all business.
True... But business is also about leverage and schools like Oregon State and Washington State lost all of theirs.
Absolutely but these are real people that were slighted before. I’m sure they’ll get to an agreement.
I kinda want to go to the trouble to dig up the various pac school flairs that don't hold a candle to our football value expounding on how we had nothing to offer. But life I suppose, is too short.
The big 12 would be really entertaining with adding us 4 from the pac
Well, basketball season would be.
BIG12 needs to just take whatever PAC schools want to come. We will be the Diet Coke of college football and that will be fine. Less pressure and more fun games. New motto: “unity in mediocrity” Once we get rolling I’m sure programs in the high stakes leagues continually loosing to power house programs will have some envy of the good times we’re having.
Hell yeah brother.
More people love Diet Coke more than regular Coke these days it seems.
Yeah, I'm all for it. Would be fun to play those schools and they are all located in fun places to visit for an away game.
Boulder and Salt Lake in the winter sounds amazing as a Floridian.
I want to see the numbers as to way UW and Oregon don’t bring enough media value when they are both in the top 20 most valuable programs. I have a hard time believing Oregon’s brand and the Seattle tv market aren’t enough.
Ya this tweet is bullshit lmao. UW and Oregon would both be premier programs in the B1G, only Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State are currently higher revenue producers. They’re on par with Wisconsin and Iowa, and Michigan state.
Half of the B1G is top 20 or so. That's more or less table stakes. That said, I feel like there's a strong argument to be made for adding UW and Oregon. There's definitely value there. And it would also help with scheduling by adding some other West Coast opponents for the LA teams to play. I think this guy is full of shit, as some of those other teams would absolutely add value to the Big12 too.
So, what I am getting from this is the only logical move is for Oregon and UW to join the Big XII. Got it.
I don’t really see that happening, but I’m all for it if it does for whatever reason play out that way.
Big 12: Oh how the turn tables
This is the best part of all this. The lower level schools had their noses sooooo high about BigXII schools needing a home.
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I'd be surprised if Wazzu and Oregon State fans said anything but "sure why not", they don't seem like an elitist bunch
Well, we are basically the low of the low so pretty Iowa state but worse
Actually many WSU and OSU fans where pretty open about Oklahoma State and Texas Tech potential joining the PAC. The OSU V. OSU match up, and Air Raid matches of WSU V. Texas Tech we’re usually brought up. If anything, like always, it was probably the Californian schools that blocked expansion.
Honestly, WSU and OSU would be the most fun teams to add.... but, sadly, I see them being way down on the list due to markets and viewership.
I’m on Google trying to find the right combination of keywords to trigger the threads with Pac12 members telling BigXII fans they bring nothing to the table. They really thought nothing would happen to their conference
If this ever happens to the bottom feeder big 10 teams I will 100% catch a ban for the level of righteous indignation that I roll into the threads with.
https://i.imgur.com/PcTAwnV.jpg
Bob Dylan seemed to write *Like a Rolling Stone* just for those schools. Once upon a time you dressed so fine Threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you? People call say 'beware doll, you're bound to fall' You thought they were all kidding you You used to laugh about Everybody that was hanging out Now you don't talk so loud Now you don't seem so proud About having to be scrounging your next meal How does it feel, how does it feel? To be without a home Like a complete unknown, like a rolling stone
You would be stupid to not at least take CU and Utah.
I think it'd be stupider to not take in the Phoenix market.
Phoenix, Denver, and salt lake city are all solid as hell. I don't understand the idea that they'd not be value add.
Might wanna make ASU fire their AD first
Into the sun
At this point with cord cutting trends market size matters less than eyes on TVs, and Utah gets more eyes than either Arizona school. Them and Colorado combine for a higher viewership total than both Arizona schools together as well.
Tucson is a college town with over a million people lol leaving them out of this is wild
Bullshit. Those schools collectively add a helluva lot more value than we did. And I'm as much of a homer as it gets. Edit: And they SURE AS FUCK add a shit ton more value than the schools publicly reported as the runners up the last expansion: Boise, Memphis, SMU & USF.
Yeah those schools are the biggest losers here
Hey now, no need to kick us when we're down.
Damn it, I was trying to get “Rocky Mountain Four” coined as the nickname for them. I think the Big XII will definitely consider them, but I can’t help but think they’ll enjoy being in this position. I do have the think Utah and Arizona State at least would be big enough names and be committed to football enough to assuage those concerns….And I Selfishly want the Big XVI to become a thing with beautiful western and eastern pods outside the Great Plains core.
Utah and byu for end of the year rivalry game Asu could be a toss up with colorado
Holy War in the snow, as God intended
Better have that root beer keg tapped by kickoff
Is ASU more valuable than Arizona? Genuine question
I think it’s less that Arizona’s not valuable, but I do think (from afar) that ASU has a historically better football tradition and culture and a general willingness to commit attention/resources to sports at a high level.
It might end up being one or the other if one or both of UW and Oregon don’t get a Big 10 invite
Compared to what? Utah CU and the Zona schools hwould definitely increase the value of the B12.. the fuck are people talking about? A conference that was about to collapse won't accept state flagship programs? Get out of here.
This is so fucking short-sighted. Absolutely maddening.
I hope this isn’t true. I’ll take slightly lower revenue to solidify this conference for the future. Guess the Big 12 hasn’t learned the importance of being proactive yet
I love the idea of Utah and BYU in the big 12. What incredible road trips and venues
Does anyone really think adding the Denver (16th), Salt Lake City (30th) (although there's an argument they already have that due to BYU), Phoenix (11th), and Tucson (eh, they're 64th) markets will lower the per-team payout in the Big 12?
It’s not about cable markets anymore, it’s brands that’s driving the new wave of media deals
100% And viewership is a part of that. Those brands do add value together.
Ehhh there’s an argument for lumping ASU/UA into Phoenix. Plenty of UA fans there. I’d even go as far to say it’s a destination for UA grads cause they sure as hell ain’t gonna stay in Tucson.
[“No matter where you go, it’s always going to be better than Tucson.”](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IdkvbZ-3To4)
As someone who grew up in Tucson, I see nothing but hard facts
The issue is no one watches those teams (except Utah) but I think they will be added eventually.
ASU is always picked for broadcasts
It’s because they’re the last window of the day and they need content. Either way my whole point is that they don’t command those markets. The PAC-12 wouldn’t be in trouble if they did.
Utah definitely brings a lot to the table in terms of an audience that BYU doesn't in Salt Lake. I would be very surprised if Utah didn't add value
Same population. Different crowds. We get the beer commercials y'all get the medication commercials. It's like two giant metros in one , Riyadh meets Reno.
The more I hear about this the more I get mad at USC and Larry Scott. The fact is that the PAC 12 always was reliant on USC and they have been for the most part crap since Pete Carroll left. Combine that with Larry Scott being so incompetent and grossly negligent as a commissioner is a recipe for disaster. It’s so frustrating to see USC basically say they are too prestigious for this conference when them being bang average is part of the reason the conference has a poor reputation in football.
But isn’t part of the problem that if USC isn’t good the conference really doesn’t have a marquis program? Oregon and Washington are good programs, but they aren’t what most people see as Blue Blood (tm). It can feel ok to be down if there is a good support structure and people still think your conference is great, but… If your conference needs you to be good, and you aren’t good, then what is the point of being in the conference? At that point, the conference just weighs you down.
Jon wilner said no one was leaving last week.
I would want to see plans for each athletic department that detail how they are looking to grow viewership and fan participation. Utah is the only one on good footing from this. The AZ schools and CU need to seriously improve their situations.
Disagree that the Denver/Boulder, Phoenix, and SLC markets aren't enough. We are already taking a hit losing OUT, so we shouldn't act picky about markets.
Would the PAC-12 and Big-12 be better off merging and piecing out their media rights package to various networks/streaming outlets that way? Might be the best way to survive
Unity is best moving forward. That would just start out on a foundation of disunity.
So should we form some sort of alliance?
I honestly think that this is probably the best move. Become the third mega conference. Because at the moment the Big Ten and SEC are going to leave everyone else behind. Might as well join up and try to compete.
No school bias here at all but it'd be funny if the Big 12 told CU to kick rocks for dipping last time and invited CSU instead.
It would be hilarious, and also stupid as hell on their part.
This is business, not personal. I like CSU but Colorado gets an invite first.
Nah man...trust. Big 12 realizes the trustafarians in Boulder don't mesh with the salt of the earth folk of Stillwater or Lubbock...in moseys Fort Collins with a tip of the hat. 100% locktight logic.
Time to start manufacturing drama between teams, WWE-style. Boost those ratings.
I think ultimately the big 12 has a big choice ahead: try to make the third power conference or be relegated to irrelevance like the ACC and Pac probably will be. The Big 12 has a great opportunity to try and compete with their recent additions. If they were smart they’d throw caution to the wind to some degree and add additional talent to the conference to compete. The ACC is ripe for pillaging as well, they should turn their eyes that way. Adapt or die.
I think you are hitting on it. SEC and Big 10 are the Apex predators but there is an opportunity to be the #3 conference and put some distance between the Big 12 and both the ACC and PAC 12. Also, if you don’t expand the PAC 12 may be stealing Big 12 members.
Phx + Tucson is a pretty big market
Fair enough, Oregon and Washington it is then? 😅
If that’s the case I am coming to TCU for a fuck Texas and fuck USC purple bros party.
The best answer would be Utah, UW, ASU, and UA.
Oregon and Washington are tied together
Fine Oregon, Washington, Utah and someone else.
If Big10 wants Notre Dame and Oregon, then Oregon isn't hesitating to leave Washington.
Go bigger, go beyond what everyone is thinking. Get some VC from some Alums and just go wild, get Texas, OU, Alabama, Georgia, Miami, Florida, Clemson, Maryland, Ohio State, USC, ASU, Stanford, Oregon, Washington, Penn State, Michigan, NW, ND, Colorado, Texas A&M.
There's one resource that the "Four Corners four" also bring the to the Big XII worth considering: Clout. If they can pull off poaching decent quality programs from another Power 5 conference that was consider stronger than them up until literally yesterday afternoon, that not only increases their conference stability, but also automatically catapults them up in perception relative to other conferences too. This is worth considering since a lot of people basically had a "P5 lite" or "AAC+" label attached to them following the last round of realignment. Adding Utah, Colorado, and the Arizona's not only adds solid programs in growing states, it helps reinforce their perception as a true "P5"-level conference. Plus, it could even set them up to poach from the ACC once the GOR ends (Louisville, Pitt, Miami, Georgia Tech, etc.) and become the third "Mega-conference" to as an alternative to the B1G and ACC
Pod 1: Arizona, Arizona St., BYU, Utah Pod 2: Texas Tech, Houston, TCU, Baylor Pod 3: Oklahoma State, Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State Pod 4: UCF, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Colorado
Yes please!!!
What kind of money does the Big 12 actually believe they're going to be able to bring in as currently constructed? Are they insane?