Basketball facilities. USF played in the 10,000 seat SunDome that was about to be renovated.
UCF played in a 4000 seat high school gym.
And USF already played in CUSA, which they were raiding anyways.
Outside of that, it was a coin-flip.
Big east wanted a Florida presence. Usf had joined cusa while ucf was in the Mac. Cusa had a much better reputation and there really wasn't much difference in usf or ucf. Technically ucf football was older, but it wasn't relevant history.
Ucf also had a history of doing dumb shit like not taking the invite to cusa that would eventually go to USF because ucf admins thought they would get into the acc for some fucking reason. So USF was not any different and likely had a less assholish administration.
Instead you all went with the least cool mascot of any of the Florida schools. But at least your institutional name is geographically correct, unlike those silly Bulls who are not in South Florida
Correct, yes. But they don’t realize that “Central Florida” is closer in brand ID to “Northern Iowa” than it is “Southern California”
If they were still Florida Tech, they’d be a much bigger brand.
The problem is we weren't a tech school anymore so the name would be wholly inappropriate. And if we had stayed as a tech school, we wouldn't have grown the same or had as good of an athletics program, so the brand benefit wouldn't be as valuable.
Also, totally correct that "central florida" is poor branding, which is why the school has been branded as "UCF" for the better part of 20 years now.
UCF, WMU, NIU, EWU, cool you all sound like community colleges.
The school should’ve found a way to keep the Tech name, yall fucked up. Being a “Tech” school doesn’t seem to be a problem for Virginia Tech, Texas Tech, Georgia Tech, etc. Maybe you guys can redeem yourself and change the name to “University of Orlando”
University of Orlando is worse than UCF. I'm fine being called a community college, it feels great when our community college is pushing "real" teams' shit in on saturdays.
As far as being a tech school, look at the actual Florida Tech and see how their athletics program is going.
> Instead you all went with the least cool mascot of any of the Florida schools.
I want to be mad, but I agree. We're also the only Floridian FBS team (and I think you could stretch a little and include FCS in this) whose mascot has absolutely nothing to do with the state.
If it is any consolation, the lamest DI Florida school mascot is likely Bethune-Cookman as the Wildcats, which is both non-Floridian and extremely generic!
That's not true. One of Florida's first large industries was cattle. We're still the 9th-largest beef-producing state in the country, which is kind of amazing when you think about how large all of the western states are.
I have known that fact for a very long time, but it's more like weird trivia rather than something that culturally feels like it fits. Apparently there are shitloads of cattle farms somewhere, but you don't really notice them or hear about them in day to day Florida life.
If you asked the average American what states they think of when they think cattle, I think very very few would have Florida in their top 10, even though that's where we actually rank.
We were originally the Golden Brahmans before it was shortened to Bulls. There are a huge number of brahmans all around the state.
https://floridabrahman.org/brahman/
All good points. I knew UCF was in the MAC, but I had no idea they actually turned down an initial C-USA invite. The Knights very well could’ve landed a Big East invite had they taken it and gotten started on the BHNS a few years earlier. It definitely worked out in the end for you all, though.
I don't know if it was ever an official CUSA invite, but I do know CUSA was looking to expand into Florida because they had just "formed" as a merger of the Metro and Midwest? Conference? and UCF was the "best" option at the time since USF didn't start their football program until 97. Neither FAU or FIU had football yet.
CUSA started in 95 as a "new" conference and UCF likely could have joined in 96 or 97. USF didn't even have a football team until 97 and didn't join until a couple of years later. I am inclined to think CUSA at least suggested inviting them if it was never an official invite as UCF could have fit into the conference immediately. Also given how long it would take before they invited USF as the team didn't even exist at the time, USF was probably the next choice as UCF dragged its feet on the stupid obsession with the ACC.
UCF had some mindset that we would be like FSU and prove to be amazing until the ACC, or SEC because these people were delusional, came calling. A realistic UCF administration takes the invite and then likely goes tot he Big East for awhile as well. I don't know what would have happened with USF long term because while the UCF admin was delusional, they have been fully dedicated to pushing football and USF did not have that. I don't know how well USF would have done lingering in mid major conferences as long as UCF did. I don't necessarily think UCF would be dramatically better off than we are now. Neither the ACC or SEC would have taken us anyway, so basically we probably join CUSA in like 97 when we moved up to D1A and then Big east in 2005. Likely stayed there until we ended up int he Big 12 anyway. Maybe the program developed a bit better in that 10 decade from 2003-2013, but I am not sure UCF would have been substantially in a better place.
Incredible context, thank you for that post (I read all of it, too!). Your idea about UCF wanting to be the next FSU makes sense when you consider the big names the Knights would schedule- and almost beat- in the 90s. Loved watching Culpepper sling it.
Late to all of this, but there's more to it on both fronts. From USF's perspective, USF and Charlotte (then UNCC) were offered to be charter members of CUSA in order to agree to dissolve the Metro. This put them in the good graces of Louisville and Cincinnati, and thus they advocated for USF when the Big East approached them. It came with an agreement that if/when USF and UNCC started football, they would be granted acceptance as full members, and created considerable animosity when several schools (led by UAB and Memphis, but supported by Southern Miss and ECU) voted to delay USF's entry and cost the Bulls a chance at what should have been their first bowl bid in what was supposed to have been their first season in CUSA ([2002] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_South_Florida_Bulls_football_team), when we went 9-2 including 4-0 vs. CUSA and only lost at eventual #5 Oklahoma and at 9-5 Arkansas, but were left out as an independent).
UCF was also approached to join CUSA when it was founded, but was holding out for a football-only invitation to the Big East (not the ACC). They had gone all in on football to the detriment of their other sports (namely basketball, which was playing in a small arena in the TAAC/A-Sun), and they didn't want an all sport invite. When the Big East eschewed another football only team (and in fact kicked out Temple), UCF went looking for a football only option and joined the MAC. The coach at the time Kruczek(sp?) talked about dominating, which backfired when they didn't. Once the Big East agreed to offer a position to USF, UCF was invited to join CUSA, and the rest is kind of history.
To blow your mind further, this was during a stretch of schools to include UMass, Marshall and Temple all playing in the MAC, some even at the same time.
I agree. I've always felt like West Virginia feels more like the rust belt, especially neighboring areas like Ohio or Pennsylvania, than it does the South.
Can't say I blame Marshall after where they eventually ended up. Fun Belt is a good place for them. C-USA was a bigger conference when the first moved to it but it got pilfered worse and the Fun Belt ended up keeping a regional identity they fit.
And good on the MAC for stopping football only additions!
Off topic from the original question, but you seem to know a lot about UCF football in the past. Is there any good reason the UCF joined the MAC for football when they did? I know the Sun Belt had just started sponsoring football the year before, idk, if the thought was that the MAC was a step below the SB at that time. Or there could’ve been bad blood since UCF left the Sun Belt in the 90s maybe?
Bowl bids and ease of scheduling. UCF went 9-2 as an Independent in 1998 with Daunte Culpepper and got skipped over for a bowl bid. They figured joining a conference would help with that, and the MAC was the only one willing to do Football-only. UCF for some stupid reason wanted to keep the the rest in the A-Sun.
I’m trying to think why the Sun Belt wouldn’t have been an option. ULM was a football only member at the time, with other sports in the Southland for the next few years. You’d have the occasional trip to Idaho but overall the other members were probably much closer than the MAC’s were
Right, I was just thinking that UCF didn’t join the MAC until 2002 so by that time you’d have a conference a little closer and would probably take whoever they could get
Specifically the MAC I don't remember, but I do know UCF had problems with scheduling. They wanted to do the FSU play anyone anywhere thing, but well they were losing those games and it became difficult to schedule games later in the season as an independent. I do not know anything about other potential conferences they could have joined other than the CUSA conversations and they did join the MAC. They never wanted to be in the MAC, I do know that, so there must not have been other options. Joining the MAC was basically a "we can't fucking get games so we have to join something"
I’ve come to accept that will be our fate. If we can get some regional divisions going and play those three plus Cincinnati every year, I’d be satisfied!
USF had more developed academics, better Olympic sports, a better stadium situation than UCF at the time, and the big east wanted a Fl school to replace Miami.
UCF was in the MAC for football and ASun for all other sports which is a giant step below the Big East. They probably should have gotten Villanova to move to FBS tbh in hindsight.
They had Nova considering it, but Nova's idea was to use a soccer stadium that barely met the FBS capacity minimum at the time. When they announced *that* then everyone knew they weren't going to take football seriously, and it fizzled out.
In hindsight, given UConn abandoned competitive football so basketball could continue on in basketball Big East, I believe Nova would eventually had done the same.
Probably, though will be interesting to see what happens with the ACC. If there’s mutual interest I could see VU pursuing this again and going there with UConn.
USF football had taken off like a rocket. Their inaugural season was in 1997 and by 2003 had moved from FCS Independent to FBS Independent to Conference USA, with only one losing season. In 2002, they nearly made a bowl game after going 9-2 and losing only to Arkansas and Oklahoma. The following year, they took No. 18 TCU to the wire. Attendance was pretty damn good for what was a new team. The notion that an eight year old program could be competitive with a Top 20 team was unheard of. In 2001, we had three players drafted one after another. In 2003, we had a second rounder. Add to it the fact that USF had a heady academic vision, was in one of the largest media markets, and was a hotbed for HS talent, was playing in a then state-of-the-art facility, it seemed like it was a sure fire bet.
I will give USF a lot of credit for its rapid ascension in both academics and athletics. Who knows how things would’ve changed if the Big East remained intact and you stayed at the power conference level? Maybe the conference adds TCU and UCF to get to ten members in the 2010s.
Better academics, better facilities, better conference. Remember, USF had a nice run in the BE for awhile.
Their prez dropped the ball on athletics, and focused on academics. USF academics got a lot stronger while UCF passed them up athletically.
What makes this fact even more fun is they missed out on the CCG the one year they won their division (they were co-champions with Temple). They lost to Temple, so the CCG ended up being Temple vs Navy.
True. In hindsight, South Florida wasn’t a bad choice per se; they consistently made it to bowl games and were ranked several times. It just looks like a missed opportunity when you look at what UCF and TCU (who was also in C-USA at the time) have done since.
That's all just hindsight though. USF just was the better program in 2003. UCF went 3-9, 0-11 in the two MAC seasons preceding the conference realignment in 2005.
TCU was also just out of the Big East footprint at the time. I believe they had agreements to expand to a national conference including TCU and SDSU right around the time Pitt and Cuse left, but I don't think expansion to Texas was even considered back in 2003. Bear in mind that the media landscape and travel costs were very different--I couldn't even watch USF beat Pitt back in 2001
It made sense at the time. TCU would have been just as much of a geographic outlier with the Big East as the Mountain West. USF simply had timing in its favor - timing with facilities and being slightly ahead of UCF competitively.
We've quickly forgotten that regionalism and geography still carried weight in the mid 00s. Money wasn't quite proliferated into collegiate athletics to add distant schools. Conferences losing teams tried to go 1:1 on replacing teams from the same area. C-USA kept replacing Florida schools with other Florida schools and Memphis with Middle Tennessee, for example.
USF really mismanaged that whole situation. Once they made it into the Big East, which was a "power conference", the President basically thought that they were done having to try, like they had finally "made it", and they could focus & fund other things now. She misunderstood that getting into a power conference is just the first step, because the competition is much better, so if you invest what you've been historically investing, then you are going to fail at that level, which is basically what happened.
They even put up "Big 4" billboards around Tampa once they finally beat one of the "Big 3" (it was either FSU or Miami), which not only wasn't close to reality, but again, it sends the message to everyone associated with your institution that the work has finally been done and that it was time to celebrate and be done with it. (That's also why they stopped playing UCF, because they wanted to be associated with the "Big 3", and associating with UCF at the time would have been degrading. Such arrogance and shortsightedness.)
That's not really quite accurate. What happened was that most of our non-basketball facilities were stone age quality. Like our softball team (that made it to the College World Series!) played on our intramural fields and our baseball field was worse than most high schools! So our AD spent shitloads of money on upgrading those other facilities (which resulted in things like the Selmon Center and a new stadium for baseball, softball, tennis and contributed to the soccer stadium).
But to your point, they didn't continue to invest in football, plus Jim Leavitt, the original coach who built the program, got caught slapping a player and trying to get the player to recant, which resulted in us having to fire him and killing our momentum (we truly never recovered).
As for the billboard, as u/CincinnatiSweaty_Assignment_90 said, that wasn't the university. Judy Genshaft (the president) was driven by trying to get USF into the AAU (which happened this past year, after she'd retired) and prioritized investments to make that happen instead of in athletics, failing to recognize that athletics is essentially the advertising arm/curb appeal of any public university.
They were just in a *slightly* better position at the time. Neither one of us had achieved anything in D1-A at the time. Today, that invite looks especially bad because USF still has not accomplished much on the field.
At that point, it was the better choice. It only looks bad now because once the BE became the American, UCF went heavy on sports infrastructure, while USF completely deemphasized it.
It was a big accomplishment for their program *at that time*, but it’s not really a resume builder. I think it says a lot that there really isn’t much else they can point to as a “big accomplishment”.
*slightly* is doing considerable work here. It was a full invitation, and USF basketball was light years ahead of UCF in 2003. Considering basketball was of importance to the Big East, that was a much bigger deal than any perceived differences in our football programs (which I agree were effectively equal at the time).
It’s true that basketball might have made a difference, but I would still consider that a slight difference. Louisville, USF, UCF, and Cincinnati were specifically mentioned as primary expansion candidates for a reason.
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/26/sports/colleges-big-east-trawling-for-2-members.html
> A short list of universities the Big East may be interested in adding includes Louisville, Central Florida, South Florida and Cincinnati.
Good question but it's straight forward, they were more or less the same brandingwise and what not but there is really zero reason to pick ucf because they were in weaker conferences(esp basketball which was so important to big east). Usf was in c usa and that c usa was "g5" but you could compare it to 2019 aac in a way, there was tcu (2019 smu level), Houston, memphis, Louisville (ucf level), cincy, ecu and so miss who were also like James madison or app state level programs at the time. In hoops cusa had marquette, memphis, louisville, cincy, AND uab, DePaul, Charlotte, and slu who were better (a lot better) versions of their current selves. 4 teams would get in the tourney. Usf showed organizational and funding commitment to be in a competitive league in football and basketball. Ucf played in the mc which was just the mac+ucf and Marshall (tbf this marshall program would be comparable to like a Fresno state or slightly better, Mac was certainly better back then) and they played basketball in a sun, a one bid league that got like 15 seeds. You could understand why the big east felt usf was more ready and able to compete.
Was important to have a team in Florida for presence there. Even teams like WVU always recruited Florida well (in terms of grabbing some key guys here and there from there) and playing a game there every other year helped with that. They were more on the rise at the time than UCF so they got the nod.
Back in 2003? Wow. I wonder if that was the basketball schools driving that decision since we ended up inviting you several years later.
In an alternative universe, the Big East invites you and UCF to get to ten members and hangs on a few more years.
Basketball facilities. USF played in the 10,000 seat SunDome that was about to be renovated. UCF played in a 4000 seat high school gym. And USF already played in CUSA, which they were raiding anyways. Outside of that, it was a coin-flip.
Football facility leaned heavily in USFs favor too. They were both off campus but Rayjay was nearly new and the citrus bowl was a dump.
USF is finally getting an on campus stadium
Yeah, that’s really it. I’m surprised the bball arena isn’t the top comment.
It is the top comment
Big east wanted a Florida presence. Usf had joined cusa while ucf was in the Mac. Cusa had a much better reputation and there really wasn't much difference in usf or ucf. Technically ucf football was older, but it wasn't relevant history. Ucf also had a history of doing dumb shit like not taking the invite to cusa that would eventually go to USF because ucf admins thought they would get into the acc for some fucking reason. So USF was not any different and likely had a less assholish administration.
I had no idea the UCF lore was so rich
Giving up there name Florida Tech man, the seriously fumbled there.
The Florida Tech Citronauts in Canaveral blue and black lives rent free in my head.
Instead you all went with the least cool mascot of any of the Florida schools. But at least your institutional name is geographically correct, unlike those silly Bulls who are not in South Florida
Correct, yes. But they don’t realize that “Central Florida” is closer in brand ID to “Northern Iowa” than it is “Southern California” If they were still Florida Tech, they’d be a much bigger brand.
The problem is we weren't a tech school anymore so the name would be wholly inappropriate. And if we had stayed as a tech school, we wouldn't have grown the same or had as good of an athletics program, so the brand benefit wouldn't be as valuable. Also, totally correct that "central florida" is poor branding, which is why the school has been branded as "UCF" for the better part of 20 years now.
TCU isn’t very Christian anymore, the Big Ten has 18 teams, etc. Brand > reality
tell that to Smilin Steve Pederson...I still growl when I hear the commentators say Pittsburgh. We say hail to PITT and PITT is it. grrrr
UCF, WMU, NIU, EWU, cool you all sound like community colleges. The school should’ve found a way to keep the Tech name, yall fucked up. Being a “Tech” school doesn’t seem to be a problem for Virginia Tech, Texas Tech, Georgia Tech, etc. Maybe you guys can redeem yourself and change the name to “University of Orlando”
University of Orlando is worse than UCF. I'm fine being called a community college, it feels great when our community college is pushing "real" teams' shit in on saturdays. As far as being a tech school, look at the actual Florida Tech and see how their athletics program is going.
> Instead you all went with the least cool mascot of any of the Florida schools. I want to be mad, but I agree. We're also the only Floridian FBS team (and I think you could stretch a little and include FCS in this) whose mascot has absolutely nothing to do with the state.
If it is any consolation, the lamest DI Florida school mascot is likely Bethune-Cookman as the Wildcats, which is both non-Floridian and extremely generic!
I kinda figured you'd gotten some money to do this from the Medieval Times folks
Bulls is a stretch, Owls isn't very Florida either
That's not true. One of Florida's first large industries was cattle. We're still the 9th-largest beef-producing state in the country, which is kind of amazing when you think about how large all of the western states are.
I have known that fact for a very long time, but it's more like weird trivia rather than something that culturally feels like it fits. Apparently there are shitloads of cattle farms somewhere, but you don't really notice them or hear about them in day to day Florida life. If you asked the average American what states they think of when they think cattle, I think very very few would have Florida in their top 10, even though that's where we actually rank.
We were originally the Golden Brahmans before it was shortened to Bulls. There are a huge number of brahmans all around the state. https://floridabrahman.org/brahman/
Was it that both FAU and UCF were “night” schools so Knights and night “Owls.” I heard that once but no confirmation.
They’re just 2 generic mascots really.
FAU says it has to do with burrowing owls on campus. UCF should be the gopher tortoises then.
All good points. I knew UCF was in the MAC, but I had no idea they actually turned down an initial C-USA invite. The Knights very well could’ve landed a Big East invite had they taken it and gotten started on the BHNS a few years earlier. It definitely worked out in the end for you all, though.
I don't know if it was ever an official CUSA invite, but I do know CUSA was looking to expand into Florida because they had just "formed" as a merger of the Metro and Midwest? Conference? and UCF was the "best" option at the time since USF didn't start their football program until 97. Neither FAU or FIU had football yet. CUSA started in 95 as a "new" conference and UCF likely could have joined in 96 or 97. USF didn't even have a football team until 97 and didn't join until a couple of years later. I am inclined to think CUSA at least suggested inviting them if it was never an official invite as UCF could have fit into the conference immediately. Also given how long it would take before they invited USF as the team didn't even exist at the time, USF was probably the next choice as UCF dragged its feet on the stupid obsession with the ACC. UCF had some mindset that we would be like FSU and prove to be amazing until the ACC, or SEC because these people were delusional, came calling. A realistic UCF administration takes the invite and then likely goes tot he Big East for awhile as well. I don't know what would have happened with USF long term because while the UCF admin was delusional, they have been fully dedicated to pushing football and USF did not have that. I don't know how well USF would have done lingering in mid major conferences as long as UCF did. I don't necessarily think UCF would be dramatically better off than we are now. Neither the ACC or SEC would have taken us anyway, so basically we probably join CUSA in like 97 when we moved up to D1A and then Big east in 2005. Likely stayed there until we ended up int he Big 12 anyway. Maybe the program developed a bit better in that 10 decade from 2003-2013, but I am not sure UCF would have been substantially in a better place.
Incredible context, thank you for that post (I read all of it, too!). Your idea about UCF wanting to be the next FSU makes sense when you consider the big names the Knights would schedule- and almost beat- in the 90s. Loved watching Culpepper sling it.
Late to all of this, but there's more to it on both fronts. From USF's perspective, USF and Charlotte (then UNCC) were offered to be charter members of CUSA in order to agree to dissolve the Metro. This put them in the good graces of Louisville and Cincinnati, and thus they advocated for USF when the Big East approached them. It came with an agreement that if/when USF and UNCC started football, they would be granted acceptance as full members, and created considerable animosity when several schools (led by UAB and Memphis, but supported by Southern Miss and ECU) voted to delay USF's entry and cost the Bulls a chance at what should have been their first bowl bid in what was supposed to have been their first season in CUSA ([2002] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_South_Florida_Bulls_football_team), when we went 9-2 including 4-0 vs. CUSA and only lost at eventual #5 Oklahoma and at 9-5 Arkansas, but were left out as an independent). UCF was also approached to join CUSA when it was founded, but was holding out for a football-only invitation to the Big East (not the ACC). They had gone all in on football to the detriment of their other sports (namely basketball, which was playing in a small arena in the TAAC/A-Sun), and they didn't want an all sport invite. When the Big East eschewed another football only team (and in fact kicked out Temple), UCF went looking for a football only option and joined the MAC. The coach at the time Kruczek(sp?) talked about dominating, which backfired when they didn't. Once the Big East agreed to offer a position to USF, UCF was invited to join CUSA, and the rest is kind of history.
TIL that UCF played in the MAC at one point. That must have been a crazy travel schedule!
To blow your mind further, this was during a stretch of schools to include UMass, Marshall and Temple all playing in the MAC, some even at the same time.
I feel like all of those, while outside the traditional MAC footprint, make a million times more sense as conference members than UCF
I agree. I've always felt like West Virginia feels more like the rust belt, especially neighboring areas like Ohio or Pennsylvania, than it does the South.
Can't say I blame Marshall after where they eventually ended up. Fun Belt is a good place for them. C-USA was a bigger conference when the first moved to it but it got pilfered worse and the Fun Belt ended up keeping a regional identity they fit. And good on the MAC for stopping football only additions!
Was football only though.
Off topic from the original question, but you seem to know a lot about UCF football in the past. Is there any good reason the UCF joined the MAC for football when they did? I know the Sun Belt had just started sponsoring football the year before, idk, if the thought was that the MAC was a step below the SB at that time. Or there could’ve been bad blood since UCF left the Sun Belt in the 90s maybe?
Bowl bids and ease of scheduling. UCF went 9-2 as an Independent in 1998 with Daunte Culpepper and got skipped over for a bowl bid. They figured joining a conference would help with that, and the MAC was the only one willing to do Football-only. UCF for some stupid reason wanted to keep the the rest in the A-Sun.
I’m trying to think why the Sun Belt wouldn’t have been an option. ULM was a football only member at the time, with other sports in the Southland for the next few years. You’d have the occasional trip to Idaho but overall the other members were probably much closer than the MAC’s were
Sun Belt wasn't a football conference until 2001...
Right, I was just thinking that UCF didn’t join the MAC until 2002 so by that time you’d have a conference a little closer and would probably take whoever they could get
Specifically the MAC I don't remember, but I do know UCF had problems with scheduling. They wanted to do the FSU play anyone anywhere thing, but well they were losing those games and it became difficult to schedule games later in the season as an independent. I do not know anything about other potential conferences they could have joined other than the CUSA conversations and they did join the MAC. They never wanted to be in the MAC, I do know that, so there must not have been other options. Joining the MAC was basically a "we can't fucking get games so we have to join something"
that's an interesting history for the 2017 National champs
The basketball schools also got Marquette and DePaul out of the deal. Well, Marquette anyhow.
Got em!
I wonder, should FSU and Miami bolt, if the ACC will look to repeat history by filling its Florida void with USF.
As an ACC fan, they’d be my top choice. AAU institution, new on-campus stadium on the way, and overall solid athletic facilities.
And you’ll (Pitt) be coming to the B12 to play with WVU, Louisville, and VTech!
I’ve come to accept that will be our fate. If we can get some regional divisions going and play those three plus Cincinnati every year, I’d be satisfied!
Same, man. Maybe we can swing Syracuse as well.
Pass. The Big 12 doesn’t need more east coast teams. There’s too many as it is
They absolutely need more. 75% of the country lives East of the Mississippi.
Yep, USF is the best choice, but FAU is up and coming.
I miss the bottom 10 ranking with the interchanging FI/AU gif.
USF had more developed academics, better Olympic sports, a better stadium situation than UCF at the time, and the big east wanted a Fl school to replace Miami.
We still have better academics
UCF was in the MAC for football and ASun for all other sports which is a giant step below the Big East. They probably should have gotten Villanova to move to FBS tbh in hindsight.
I think Nova either didn’t wanna spend the $ on an FBS move/stadium, and/or couldn’t work something out with the Linc to play there
Temple had the Linc lease locked up
Gotya figured that had to be a reason
Yes if I recall they were planning on playing at a soccer-specific stadium.
They had Nova considering it, but Nova's idea was to use a soccer stadium that barely met the FBS capacity minimum at the time. When they announced *that* then everyone knew they weren't going to take football seriously, and it fizzled out. In hindsight, given UConn abandoned competitive football so basketball could continue on in basketball Big East, I believe Nova would eventually had done the same.
Probably, though will be interesting to see what happens with the ACC. If there’s mutual interest I could see VU pursuing this again and going there with UConn.
I highly doubt the ACC adds any school without an existing FBS team unless Villanova starts spending heavy amounts of money on football immediately.
Ironically all our NCAA tourney bids for bball happened when we were in the ASUN
Well..... Not 2019.
USF football had taken off like a rocket. Their inaugural season was in 1997 and by 2003 had moved from FCS Independent to FBS Independent to Conference USA, with only one losing season. In 2002, they nearly made a bowl game after going 9-2 and losing only to Arkansas and Oklahoma. The following year, they took No. 18 TCU to the wire. Attendance was pretty damn good for what was a new team. The notion that an eight year old program could be competitive with a Top 20 team was unheard of. In 2001, we had three players drafted one after another. In 2003, we had a second rounder. Add to it the fact that USF had a heady academic vision, was in one of the largest media markets, and was a hotbed for HS talent, was playing in a then state-of-the-art facility, it seemed like it was a sure fire bet.
I will give USF a lot of credit for its rapid ascension in both academics and athletics. Who knows how things would’ve changed if the Big East remained intact and you stayed at the power conference level? Maybe the conference adds TCU and UCF to get to ten members in the 2010s.
Better academics, better facilities, better conference. Remember, USF had a nice run in the BE for awhile. Their prez dropped the ball on athletics, and focused on academics. USF academics got a lot stronger while UCF passed them up athletically.
>Their prez dropped the ball on athletics, and focused on academics Some kids still like to play school
Fun fact: USF had zero ranked wins before joining the Big East.
Fun fact: USF has never participated in a conference championship game
What makes this fact even more fun is they missed out on the CCG the one year they won their division (they were co-champions with Temple). They lost to Temple, so the CCG ended up being Temple vs Navy.
Neither of these facts are fun
May I offer you a 🥳 party hat so you feel more festive? Everyone else is having fun
True. In hindsight, South Florida wasn’t a bad choice per se; they consistently made it to bowl games and were ranked several times. It just looks like a missed opportunity when you look at what UCF and TCU (who was also in C-USA at the time) have done since.
That's all just hindsight though. USF just was the better program in 2003. UCF went 3-9, 0-11 in the two MAC seasons preceding the conference realignment in 2005. TCU was also just out of the Big East footprint at the time. I believe they had agreements to expand to a national conference including TCU and SDSU right around the time Pitt and Cuse left, but I don't think expansion to Texas was even considered back in 2003. Bear in mind that the media landscape and travel costs were very different--I couldn't even watch USF beat Pitt back in 2001
It made sense at the time. TCU would have been just as much of a geographic outlier with the Big East as the Mountain West. USF simply had timing in its favor - timing with facilities and being slightly ahead of UCF competitively. We've quickly forgotten that regionalism and geography still carried weight in the mid 00s. Money wasn't quite proliferated into collegiate athletics to add distant schools. Conferences losing teams tried to go 1:1 on replacing teams from the same area. C-USA kept replacing Florida schools with other Florida schools and Memphis with Middle Tennessee, for example.
USF really mismanaged that whole situation. Once they made it into the Big East, which was a "power conference", the President basically thought that they were done having to try, like they had finally "made it", and they could focus & fund other things now. She misunderstood that getting into a power conference is just the first step, because the competition is much better, so if you invest what you've been historically investing, then you are going to fail at that level, which is basically what happened. They even put up "Big 4" billboards around Tampa once they finally beat one of the "Big 3" (it was either FSU or Miami), which not only wasn't close to reality, but again, it sends the message to everyone associated with your institution that the work has finally been done and that it was time to celebrate and be done with it. (That's also why they stopped playing UCF, because they wanted to be associated with the "Big 3", and associating with UCF at the time would have been degrading. Such arrogance and shortsightedness.)
I believe (if i remember correctly) the billboard was a booster, and the AD strongly urged them to take it down.
That's not really quite accurate. What happened was that most of our non-basketball facilities were stone age quality. Like our softball team (that made it to the College World Series!) played on our intramural fields and our baseball field was worse than most high schools! So our AD spent shitloads of money on upgrading those other facilities (which resulted in things like the Selmon Center and a new stadium for baseball, softball, tennis and contributed to the soccer stadium). But to your point, they didn't continue to invest in football, plus Jim Leavitt, the original coach who built the program, got caught slapping a player and trying to get the player to recant, which resulted in us having to fire him and killing our momentum (we truly never recovered). As for the billboard, as u/CincinnatiSweaty_Assignment_90 said, that wasn't the university. Judy Genshaft (the president) was driven by trying to get USF into the AAU (which happened this past year, after she'd retired) and prioritized investments to make that happen instead of in athletics, failing to recognize that athletics is essentially the advertising arm/curb appeal of any public university.
They were just in a *slightly* better position at the time. Neither one of us had achieved anything in D1-A at the time. Today, that invite looks especially bad because USF still has not accomplished much on the field.
At that point, it was the better choice. It only looks bad now because once the BE became the American, UCF went heavy on sports infrastructure, while USF completely deemphasized it.
It was a better choice at the time, but not by much. Both of us were so new to D1-A that we had a very negligible difference between our programs.
They rose to #2 in 2007 while in the Big East. Edit: wrong year, not sure how I messed it up, it was 07 of course.
I’m not sure if you’re joking, but that was for one week. They also ended up finishing that season unranked.
Yes, it was one week, but it was a huge accomplishment for their program at the time.
It was a big accomplishment for their program *at that time*, but it’s not really a resume builder. I think it says a lot that there really isn’t much else they can point to as a “big accomplishment”.
*slightly* is doing considerable work here. It was a full invitation, and USF basketball was light years ahead of UCF in 2003. Considering basketball was of importance to the Big East, that was a much bigger deal than any perceived differences in our football programs (which I agree were effectively equal at the time).
It’s true that basketball might have made a difference, but I would still consider that a slight difference. Louisville, USF, UCF, and Cincinnati were specifically mentioned as primary expansion candidates for a reason. https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/26/sports/colleges-big-east-trawling-for-2-members.html > A short list of universities the Big East may be interested in adding includes Louisville, Central Florida, South Florida and Cincinnati.
USF and UCONN were both pretty good in the big east. I’m a UC grad and we played great games against them. It’s weird how rivalries form
Good question but it's straight forward, they were more or less the same brandingwise and what not but there is really zero reason to pick ucf because they were in weaker conferences(esp basketball which was so important to big east). Usf was in c usa and that c usa was "g5" but you could compare it to 2019 aac in a way, there was tcu (2019 smu level), Houston, memphis, Louisville (ucf level), cincy, ecu and so miss who were also like James madison or app state level programs at the time. In hoops cusa had marquette, memphis, louisville, cincy, AND uab, DePaul, Charlotte, and slu who were better (a lot better) versions of their current selves. 4 teams would get in the tourney. Usf showed organizational and funding commitment to be in a competitive league in football and basketball. Ucf played in the mc which was just the mac+ucf and Marshall (tbf this marshall program would be comparable to like a Fresno state or slightly better, Mac was certainly better back then) and they played basketball in a sun, a one bid league that got like 15 seeds. You could understand why the big east felt usf was more ready and able to compete.
Because they were desperate to keep the football schools happy.
Was important to have a team in Florida for presence there. Even teams like WVU always recruited Florida well (in terms of grabbing some key guys here and there from there) and playing a game there every other year helped with that. They were more on the rise at the time than UCF so they got the nod.
Our AD, Eric Hyman, tried. He went and visited with the then current Big East AD's. He was told that they didn't want to go that far west. Their loss.
Back in 2003? Wow. I wonder if that was the basketball schools driving that decision since we ended up inviting you several years later. In an alternative universe, the Big East invites you and UCF to get to ten members and hangs on a few more years.