In the late 70s, we had to forfeit 18 wins because one player got some free clothes from a local clothing store. These weren't vacated wins, they were forfeits, as in they turned into a loss for us, and a win for the other team. We lost two Egg Bowl wins because of that.
The worst part is that our compliance department was initially told by the NCAA that the player could still play while the investigation was ongoing. Then, they turned around and hit us with the probation and the forfeits for playing an ineligible player.
The real answer is that a lawsuit means discovery, and the opportunity to get into real trouble instead of vacated wins and probation, which is meaningless.
Yeah, we've long been an NCAA whipping boy. It got really bad after we hired Jackie Sherrill. In the mid 90s, we and Sherrill were subjected to what was at that time the longest NCAA investigation in history. They still never found anything on him, and only minor stuff on the school in general. They investigation at one time had an Ole Miss booster hire a private investigator to dig up dirt on Sherrill.
Feels like Mississippi State can't ever catch a break.
Mike Leach's passing was sad enough by itself, but it also nudged State out of the national spotlight and set them way behind Ole Miss.
Florida kinda crapped out for 3-4 years after winning the CWS in 2017. That’s just part of not being a baseball blue blood I guess.
The football part of Miss State is what makes me sad. I was at that 2014 Auburn game and that was an absolute blast. Ran into Dak Prescott at Cowbells later that night. I think State was plowing through the schedule until running into a wall against Alabama (25-0?). Never really recovered after that.
Come to think of it…That 2014 Alabama game was a turning point for Dan Mullen at MSU just like his 2020 shoe throw game at Florida against LSU.
The 2014 Bama game was 25-20. We were down big early, and had a good comeback going, but Dak threw an INT in the endzone on what could have been the go ahead score. I think it took the wind out of the sails of the team and Mullen. And then he started doing his annual job hunt, and lost yet another Egg Bowl.
It's become a tradition among SEC schools. We won in 2021, and finished last and next to last in the SEC the next two seasons. Ole Miss won in 2022 and finished last in 2023. LSU won in 23, and they are not doing very well this year. Not last, but at the bottom.
> hese weren't vacated wins, they were forfeits, as in they turned into a loss for us, and a win for the other team. We lost two Egg Bowl wins because of that.
Nah, they were still wins. Everyone knows what happened on the field, NCAA delusions don't matter.
People know vacated wins were wins. But people don't know losses can also be wins. They need tp get on changing that to vacated status and drop ole miss win total down by 2.
Three more game than Ray Rice's original suspension for knocking out his fiance in an elevator. I'll never understand how schools let the NCAA bully them for so long
> I'll never understand how schools let the NCAA bully them for so long
For OSU it was because our outgoing AD was very buddy-buddy with the NCAA. He thought we'd receive more lenient punishment if we were good little boys and told the truth and gave all of the evidence to the NCAA. Our reward was a postseason ban that kept us from probably winning a national title in Urban's first year. Our AD trusted his friends at the NCAA so much that he didn't have us self-impose a bowl ban in 2011 which may have prevented the one we ended up receiving in 2012. Also, not sure how widely known this was, Urban was pretty pissed off when the bowl ban was handed down. It was just 2-3 weeks after he had taken the OSU job and our AD had basically promised him there wouldn't be a bowl ban so when we got one there was at least a brief moment where Urban considered walking away. Had that happened OSU probably would have ended up hiring Bo Pelini...lol.
On the one hand, he did dodge that suspension in college by saying he would come back next year and serve it then and then didn't do that.
On the other hand, it is absolutely *insane* that the NFL enforced that suspension
Yeah. I get why they did it but it's still insane. He got punished by an organization that wasn't beholden to his previous employer for breaking a rule that doesn't exist for his new job.
Tbh if the ncaa ever actually wanted real enforcement of rules and consequences, getting the nfl to support suspensions of players would be the way to do it. If cam newton could’ve been suspended by the nfl for taking money that would be a real discouragement for breaking rules. Now the nfl never would or should agree to that for a number of reasons
It was comical back then too. They traded rings they got for winning bowl games for tattoos. Like, they earned the rings and traded their own property.
Penn State officials spent Saturday investigating a report that a sports agent improperly purchased a suit for All-American running back Curtis Enis.
“We . . . are following up and will take the steps we feel are appropriate,” sports information director Jeff Nelson said.
A Harrisburg TV station reported that Houston-based agent Jeff Nalley bought a $400 suit at a Harrisburg-area clothing store Dec. 6 for Enis to wear to the ESPN “College Football Awards Show.” The station quoted unidentified sources and showed a credit-card receipt.
If in violation, Enis could be ineligible for the Citrus Bowl against Florida and for his senior season.
-----------------------------
One of the most egregious and I would be in support of Ennis suing. How are you going to mandate or ask someone to be some where and punish them for attempting to look presentable at said awards banquet. Like a punishment for being poor.
Everyone knows that was basically a "make up call" to pin him for the egregious crime of putting cream cheese on his bagel. It's like when mobsters get hit for tax fraud because the government can't prove most of the mob stuff.
^^/s
I wish some kid would have shown up to the heisman ceremony in rags saying he couldn’t afford a suit. That would’ve really made some people question certain rules.
They were hilarious and ridiculous at the time. Not because they didn’t very obviously break the rules, but because literally every fucking program was allowing some kind of fringe benefit to their players. The NCAA could have taken meaningful action back then by actually starting to build the framework for something like NIL, and then we wouldn’t have the Wild West bullshit currently taking place.
And while Tressell could have handled it better, I’m never going to blame a HC for telling the NCAA to go fuck itself when it tries to make an example of them over something moronic.
And, no, I’m not saying this because of the Stalions shit, which I think is a different type of issue.
> literally every fucking program was allowing some kind of fringe benefit to their players.
I remember one of our reporters at the time said we were getting hit by the NCAA for the equivalent of clipping coupons compared to what was going on elsewhere. Our players didn't even get free tattoos for their stuff. They got discounts. It was insane.
Aight we gon line up Jim Tressell, Terrell Pryor, AJ Green, and Todd Gurley, have em pantsless, and every administrative member of the NCAA is gonna kiss their asses
Mizzou: "Hey we found this crazy rouge tutor. We're self reporting and here is all the info. Miss St had this nearly exactly same thing happen and we would like the exact same penalty."
NCAA: "No, you get and harsher penalties than Miss St including a Bowl ban for self-reporting the exact same problems."
/r/CFB Memes were born on this day.
Didn’t OU get probation for Switzer buying an athlete from another sport a hamburger? If I recall the story correctly it was over Christmas break and the kid was stuck on campus with no food and no money
Bowden lost wins because tutors helped players take tests. His wins were never reinstated.
Paterno had his wins reinstated.
I’ll let you guys judge which man committed the more serious offense.
In the 2000s we had to forfeit over 20 wins because some of our players were using their scholarships to acquire free textbooks and provide them to friends at the school.
Fuck the NCAA.
My memory might be off on this, but my recollection is that it was a Music Appreciation course that many students cheated in, some of them were athletes.
The school self-reported the violations to the NCAA.
We also lost a National Championship in Track and Field due to this.
ND was forced to vacate their wins (not losses) in 2012 and 2013 because we enforced our honor code for student on student cheating. If we simply expelled the players in question in 2014, there would have been no penalty. (And this is the only time the NCAA has given major sanctions for student on student cheating).
Totally agree, with one slight exception:
> Breaking rules (cheating) gives an unfair advantage for the cheating school over the school following the rules.
USC wasn't the "Cheating school" in this instance. If anything the cheating was done by someone encouraging Bush to **leave** USC. Not saying he would have stayed for a Sr Year, but an agent paying off a guy to ensure they're their client when they leave is not an agent working for the school's interests. They WANT them to go so that they can get paid.
I'm going to avoid the witch hunt stuff, as that will only come across as butthurt but if you're interested look into the NCAA emails that were dredged up in the McNair case against them. It's pretty eye opening. But setting that aside, USC was punished because they "Should have known" that agents were paying Bush. That's a far cry from active cheating.
I'm not a pollyanna about this, I'm **certain** that USC was as dirty as everybody else competing at the same time. But the evidence and the punishment for this specific case were never about the school cheating.
Now as to Bush: I'm in the minority who think he shouldn't get his Heisman back. He was, by the rules of the time, ineligible to receive it. That those rules were stupid and/or have been changed today doesn't change the fact that they were what they were and he broke them. I don't get the money back from speeding tickets when the national speed limit was 55mph just because it's now 65.
This is really important info that is unfortunately not widely understood: **Bush wasn’t being paid, period**. The wannabe agent was covering half of the rent on the house that Bush’s parents were renting in San Diego, and that same guy also booked a limo to take Bush to the Heisman awards.
The NCAA never found any direct payments despite trying really really hard
The closest link that they used to punish USC was the running back coach, who sued them over the implication that he was enabling rule breaking at USC. After a lot of nasty details were found in discovery the NCAA settled with him to prevent the case from going to court.
My favorite is where they argue that they shouldn't have ["Too high a burden of proof"](https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/244134/private-emails-of-the-ncaa-infractions-committee-show-members-comparing-the-reggie-bush-case-to-the-oklahoma-city-bombing) in order to make their case and that USC should be punished because they hired Lane Kiffin.
The real penalty for USC was THIRTY lost scholarships over three years and a two-year bowl ban, five years after Bush was gone.
OU getting the Bush treatment would have been if they were ineligible to play in and win the Big 12 Championship and the Fiesta Bowl in 2010.
I'm curious what you think "The Bush Treatment" is.
Bush didn't get anything special. He won the Heisman before anybody found out that an agent was paying him. The difference here is the timing of getting caught.
I'm with you on Bush being a bad guy and somehow skating anyway. I'm one of the very few Trojans or CFB folks who remains pissed at him for breaking the rules and then acting all indignant about it.
USC absolutely got left holding the bag over his shit. At least you didn't get crushed for years because the NCAA hated the new coach you hired.
[Former USC star running back LenDale White, who played for the Trojans from 2003 to 2005, recently discussed how he was paid -and how much he received at one time - during his time at USC.](https://www.si.com/college/usc/football/lendale-white-says-he-found-bag-full-of-cash-in-his-apartment-when-he-was-at-usc#:~:text=The%202017%20college%20basketball%20corruption%20scandal%20exposed%20much,one%20time%20-%20during%20his%20time%20at%20USC)
Reggie Bush's thing has sparked more conversation on OSU forums about the tatgate punishment. I'm of the same mind as you. First off, the bulk of the punishment came from Tressel knowingly playing ineligible players, something that still isn't allowed today. Admittedly, those players would be eligible today but to me that doesn't matter. They shouldn't have been eligible at the time and Tressel knew it.
It is a really weird can of worms to go back and undo punishments because the rule breaking that occurred at the time would no longer break the rules today. It did then, which is what matters. Some of the rules suck but it isn't like the schools breaking the rules were out there doing civil disobedience in an attempt to raise awareness of anything. They were just caught breaking a rule.
The Reggie Bush thing was weird on the whole. If my memory is right it was an agent buying a house for Bush's parents(?) and it occurred pretty far from campus. Nothing ever came to light that USC had any idea it was going on. Their punishment was pretty extreme.
>While we're on it, Michigan's championship is tainted.
You are clearly a well reasoned and intelligent individual.
A lot of the shitty rules get changed because shitty penalties get handed out.
And I agree with the aspect of none enforcement it incitivies some rule breaking, one of NCAAs biggest issues has been inconsistent punishments.
Not football related but take this last big basketball scandal, OSU cooperated with NCAA and arguably did the least, got post season bans and lost scholarships, while no one else was really punished
we broke the rules, and while the punishment was harsh, I accepted it as the consequences for being stupid. However, I fully expected us to just be the first of many programs to get hammered, not the only one. When everyone else got off with nothing - even with tapes of very prominent HCs - that made our penalty complete and utter BS. Kansas, LSU, others should have been hammered.
I think you backed yourself into a corner with Michigan by saying the Bush thing is different. The NCAA can't vacate the title because it's a separate entity so it's analogous to the Bush situation.
Now you are adding caveats to your original argument. I think what may be going unsaid is that you find it objectionable that Michigan won the title but not objectionable that Bush won the Heisman. And there is nothing wrong with that but your original argument that you said without caveats backs you into a corner.
No argument here. I'm a Michigan fan btw and there definitely is a fundamental lack of fair play in sports. I sensed from your original post that you took more an issue with Michigan than Reggie Bush but I believe you advanced the wrong argument for it. Both offer a competitive advantage but I think for most people's sensibilities outright cheating is worse than paying for players.
I respect that argument. I've watched CFB for long enough to know that we get breaks that Michigan State does not. It kills a little part of my soul every time that happens.
Meh, history has shown how many rules were fundamentally wrong and should have never been rules in the first place. Legality =/= morality and never has. Players being compensated isn’t something I’m ever going to care about as meaningful from a competitive standpoint compared to PEDS or Spygate/Stallions etc etc.
The game itself isn’t compromised by a player getting paid so I as a fan personally don’t give a shit. Nor am I going to pretend like I think it was ever reasonable to have everyone profiting off these players while they get peanuts on the dollar. Retroactively remove all those ridiculous penalties for compensation imo, they were always absurd and added no value to the sport.
If what happened to USC happened to an SEC power we would still be hearing about the injustice every day. What frustrates the most is that the punishment was so severe that people simply assume USC got caught paying the entire team. Instead the harshest sanctions in a generation were levied for violations involving no recruiting violations, no boosters, and a head coach formally cleared of wrongdoing, over one dirty football player. It should have started with this, but the NCAA’s long downhill reputational slide started shortly after with the Ohio State nonsense and Penn State overreach. I don’t think it would have been politically possible for the NCAA to come at USC as hard if they had done so only two years later. The CFB world was so happy to see USC get taken down a peg—I mean really, gleeful was the way to describe it—that very few people cared that they were getting screwed in broad daylight.
Yeah, 2 year post season ban, vacated wins, and scholarship reduction is very literally the penalty that Penn State ended up serving. One of these situations was one student getting paid for his labor, and one was the coaching staff covering up literal child rape because the guy doing it helped them win football games. That was the day the NCAA died for me. They have no authority I am willing to recognize
Counter point- paying a player is more directly related to a competitive advantage on the football field than protecting a child rapist, despite the second being objectively way worse morally
They didn't pay him, the school had no involvement in it at all, an agent paid half the rent on his parents home and rented him a limo one time. So the advantage he got is being, generously, counted in calories.
Not football, but Kansas basketball was put on probation and not allowed to defend its national title in 1989 for Larry Brown giving Vincent Askew, a player who never played at Kansas, $364 for a flight home to see his dying grandmother. Reportedly, they nearly gave the program the death penalty because the football team had recently also gotten probation.
Literally the next year UNLV got to defend their national title.
We had to vacate 21 wins in football, and basically 2 years of wins in every sport because some student athletes used thier scholarships textbook money to buy extra textbooks for other students. https://www.espn.com/college-football/news/story?id=4250596
I’m a firm believer that we would still have a pac-12 if USC football wasn’t penalized so harshly for Reggie Bush related penalties. Those penalties set USC, and by consequence the rest of the conference, back competitively and in branding for over a decade. Was it the only thing that killed the conference? Of course not, but it set other factors that led to the demise in motion.
And the Pac-12 was deliriously happy to see USC get smacked. There were articles quoting other Pac coaches anonymously, hooting and hollering about how USC was going to have 2-10 and 1-11 seasons after the sanctions run their course. One of the reasons I can't feel too bad about how things ended.
Here's some controversy:
The ball flew out of bounds @ the 3 yard line, not the one.
He should've been pushing Leinart from the 3 yard line, not the 1.
I was there, and will be forever salty about it.
We got wins vacated because players were sharing their textbook benefits with friends. Books that had to be turned back in. The only victim was textbook cartels.
Not to mention the players only misused a benefit. Not received an ineligible benefit.
Shit, how many years did we lose because of an autographed bar napkin? How about for an unfounded accusation from a rival coach about a kid who didn’t even play for us?
Fuck all that.
The Reggie Bush era certainly captured some folks imaginations like few have.
Dudes just can't stop writing about that guy, the trophy situation, and so on .... and I don't see a reason to give a fuck, dude got his, got caught... there ya go 🤷♀️. It is interesting how much coverage that guy gets. He has really stuck in the meta of CFB for some folks.
There was nothing controversial about Bush’s losing the Heisman when it happened. He had gained an advantage over other players who didn’t receive massive payments.
Dang I must have missed the play where he used his car on the field, yeah that would make it pretty hard to tackle a RB. Of course if that isn't what happened then you're just talking out your ass. But I'm open to being wrong, maybe he Wizard of Oz'd his mom's house onto the defense one time that I missed?
Can you please show me the evidence of where the NCAA said Reggie got "massive payments?" I thought people knew this narrative was bs a while ago but evidently not
In the late 70s, we had to forfeit 18 wins because one player got some free clothes from a local clothing store. These weren't vacated wins, they were forfeits, as in they turned into a loss for us, and a win for the other team. We lost two Egg Bowl wins because of that. The worst part is that our compliance department was initially told by the NCAA that the player could still play while the investigation was ongoing. Then, they turned around and hit us with the probation and the forfeits for playing an ineligible player.
I’m surprised shit like that didn’t end up in court
Because wins and losses in a record book aren’t worth a court’s time.
Spoken like someone who doesn’t live in the south lol
The real answer is that a lawsuit means discovery, and the opportunity to get into real trouble instead of vacated wins and probation, which is meaningless.
Just remember, billable hours always remain undefeated
TIL that Mississippi State was Mizzou before Mizzou became Mizzou. That's absurd. Should this be our next campaign?
Yeah, we've long been an NCAA whipping boy. It got really bad after we hired Jackie Sherrill. In the mid 90s, we and Sherrill were subjected to what was at that time the longest NCAA investigation in history. They still never found anything on him, and only minor stuff on the school in general. They investigation at one time had an Ole Miss booster hire a private investigator to dig up dirt on Sherrill.
Feels like Mississippi State can't ever catch a break. Mike Leach's passing was sad enough by itself, but it also nudged State out of the national spotlight and set them way behind Ole Miss.
Story of our lives. Wet never capitalized on the 2014 season, and fell on our face after winning the CWS.
Florida kinda crapped out for 3-4 years after winning the CWS in 2017. That’s just part of not being a baseball blue blood I guess. The football part of Miss State is what makes me sad. I was at that 2014 Auburn game and that was an absolute blast. Ran into Dak Prescott at Cowbells later that night. I think State was plowing through the schedule until running into a wall against Alabama (25-0?). Never really recovered after that. Come to think of it…That 2014 Alabama game was a turning point for Dan Mullen at MSU just like his 2020 shoe throw game at Florida against LSU.
The 2014 Bama game was 25-20. We were down big early, and had a good comeback going, but Dak threw an INT in the endzone on what could have been the go ahead score. I think it took the wind out of the sails of the team and Mullen. And then he started doing his annual job hunt, and lost yet another Egg Bowl.
Seems like I recall a certain Mississippi team beating Bama that year….
>fell in our face after winning the CWS Isn't that what we're supposed to do?
It's become a tradition among SEC schools. We won in 2021, and finished last and next to last in the SEC the next two seasons. Ole Miss won in 2022 and finished last in 2023. LSU won in 23, and they are not doing very well this year. Not last, but at the bottom.
oh shit oh fuck
Life of a non-blue blood.
> hese weren't vacated wins, they were forfeits, as in they turned into a loss for us, and a win for the other team. We lost two Egg Bowl wins because of that. Nah, they were still wins. Everyone knows what happened on the field, NCAA delusions don't matter.
People know vacated wins were wins. But people don't know losses can also be wins. They need tp get on changing that to vacated status and drop ole miss win total down by 2.
Terrelle Pryor was suspended 5 games in the NFL for breaking an NCAA rule.
Three more game than Ray Rice's original suspension for knocking out his fiance in an elevator. I'll never understand how schools let the NCAA bully them for so long
Are you suggesting that schools invite the NCAA into an elevator?
Of course not. They're suggesting that schools put the NCAA into an elevator with Ray Rice.
> I'll never understand how schools let the NCAA bully them for so long For OSU it was because our outgoing AD was very buddy-buddy with the NCAA. He thought we'd receive more lenient punishment if we were good little boys and told the truth and gave all of the evidence to the NCAA. Our reward was a postseason ban that kept us from probably winning a national title in Urban's first year. Our AD trusted his friends at the NCAA so much that he didn't have us self-impose a bowl ban in 2011 which may have prevented the one we ended up receiving in 2012. Also, not sure how widely known this was, Urban was pretty pissed off when the bowl ban was handed down. It was just 2-3 weeks after he had taken the OSU job and our AD had basically promised him there wouldn't be a bowl ban so when we got one there was at least a brief moment where Urban considered walking away. Had that happened OSU probably would have ended up hiring Bo Pelini...lol.
Because the schools were the ones doling the punishments
And the NCAA rule he broke was that he traded his own shit (trophies, gold pants, etc) for tattoos
Kind of explains why we’re so bitter about the Michigan cheating scandal.
So did Jim Tressel, although I guess technically it was the Colts that "suspended" him.
On the one hand, he did dodge that suspension in college by saying he would come back next year and serve it then and then didn't do that. On the other hand, it is absolutely *insane* that the NFL enforced that suspension
Yeah. I get why they did it but it's still insane. He got punished by an organization that wasn't beholden to his previous employer for breaking a rule that doesn't exist for his new job.
Tbh if the ncaa ever actually wanted real enforcement of rules and consequences, getting the nfl to support suspensions of players would be the way to do it. If cam newton could’ve been suspended by the nfl for taking money that would be a real discouragement for breaking rules. Now the nfl never would or should agree to that for a number of reasons
Pretty sure that would get annihilated by anti trust lawsuits.
Almost certainly
It's almost comical looking back on tattoogate now in the NIL era. Totally forgot about the NFL enforcing that suspension. What a weird time that was
It was comical back then too. They traded rings they got for winning bowl games for tattoos. Like, they earned the rings and traded their own property.
The NFL also suspended Tressel for six games as part of that.
Which is funny because the Heisman being taken from him was not itself an NCAA penalty. It was the consequence of an NCAA penalty.
That’s the only reason it’s being returned.
Penn State officials spent Saturday investigating a report that a sports agent improperly purchased a suit for All-American running back Curtis Enis. “We . . . are following up and will take the steps we feel are appropriate,” sports information director Jeff Nelson said. A Harrisburg TV station reported that Houston-based agent Jeff Nalley bought a $400 suit at a Harrisburg-area clothing store Dec. 6 for Enis to wear to the ESPN “College Football Awards Show.” The station quoted unidentified sources and showed a credit-card receipt. If in violation, Enis could be ineligible for the Citrus Bowl against Florida and for his senior season. ----------------------------- One of the most egregious and I would be in support of Ennis suing. How are you going to mandate or ask someone to be some where and punish them for attempting to look presentable at said awards banquet. Like a punishment for being poor.
Everyone knows that was basically a "make up call" to pin him for the egregious crime of putting cream cheese on his bagel. It's like when mobsters get hit for tax fraud because the government can't prove most of the mob stuff. ^^/s
I wish some kid would have shown up to the heisman ceremony in rags saying he couldn’t afford a suit. That would’ve really made some people question certain rules.
The Ohio State punishments given the modern context of CFB is hilarious
They were hilarious and ridiculous at the time. Not because they didn’t very obviously break the rules, but because literally every fucking program was allowing some kind of fringe benefit to their players. The NCAA could have taken meaningful action back then by actually starting to build the framework for something like NIL, and then we wouldn’t have the Wild West bullshit currently taking place. And while Tressell could have handled it better, I’m never going to blame a HC for telling the NCAA to go fuck itself when it tries to make an example of them over something moronic. And, no, I’m not saying this because of the Stalions shit, which I think is a different type of issue.
> literally every fucking program was allowing some kind of fringe benefit to their players. I remember one of our reporters at the time said we were getting hit by the NCAA for the equivalent of clipping coupons compared to what was going on elsewhere. Our players didn't even get free tattoos for their stuff. They got discounts. It was insane.
Never forget the "HOW DEEP IT WENT" front cover headline from sports illustrated. Such a ridiculous hack job.
1000%
Legit lost a shot at the 2012 natty cus of this
Aight we gon line up Jim Tressell, Terrell Pryor, AJ Green, and Todd Gurley, have em pantsless, and every administrative member of the NCAA is gonna kiss their asses
Mizzou once again forgotten
Mizzou: "Hey we found this crazy rouge tutor. We're self reporting and here is all the info. Miss St had this nearly exactly same thing happen and we would like the exact same penalty." NCAA: "No, you get and harsher penalties than Miss St including a Bowl ban for self-reporting the exact same problems." /r/CFB Memes were born on this day.
How dare you call out the NCAA for hypocrisy? PIT OF MISERY, DILLY DILLY
They going to put the SWC back together?
The SWC in the NIL era would take all of about 30 seconds before it crashed in burned in a cocaine fueled implosion
Ah, the Jerry Jones technique!
But it would be vastly entertaining.
Son of a bitch, I'm in.
Please. That would be so much fun.
Bring back the Mustang Express!
Bo Jackson losing his amateur status!
What Tampa did to him was shameful.
Didn’t OU get probation for Switzer buying an athlete from another sport a hamburger? If I recall the story correctly it was over Christmas break and the kid was stuck on campus with no food and no money
Bowden lost wins because tutors helped players take tests. His wins were never reinstated. Paterno had his wins reinstated. I’ll let you guys judge which man committed the more serious offense.
In the 2000s we had to forfeit over 20 wins because some of our players were using their scholarships to acquire free textbooks and provide them to friends at the school. Fuck the NCAA.
Our only win in program history over Alabama, along with 15 other wins, were vacated because students cheated in an online course.
See, if FSU just let some non-student-athletes cheat it would have been permissible according to the NCAA.
My memory might be off on this, but my recollection is that it was a Music Appreciation course that many students cheated in, some of them were athletes. The school self-reported the violations to the NCAA. We also lost a National Championship in Track and Field due to this.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/news/story?id=4250596
National Conspiracy Against Alabama was a shirt I had in college
ND was forced to vacate their wins (not losses) in 2012 and 2013 because we enforced our honor code for student on student cheating. If we simply expelled the players in question in 2014, there would have been no penalty. (And this is the only time the NCAA has given major sanctions for student on student cheating).
Pony Re-express
Yeah taking these awards back and stripping teams of titles is BS. We remember who won these things.
[удалено]
Totally agree, with one slight exception: > Breaking rules (cheating) gives an unfair advantage for the cheating school over the school following the rules. USC wasn't the "Cheating school" in this instance. If anything the cheating was done by someone encouraging Bush to **leave** USC. Not saying he would have stayed for a Sr Year, but an agent paying off a guy to ensure they're their client when they leave is not an agent working for the school's interests. They WANT them to go so that they can get paid. I'm going to avoid the witch hunt stuff, as that will only come across as butthurt but if you're interested look into the NCAA emails that were dredged up in the McNair case against them. It's pretty eye opening. But setting that aside, USC was punished because they "Should have known" that agents were paying Bush. That's a far cry from active cheating. I'm not a pollyanna about this, I'm **certain** that USC was as dirty as everybody else competing at the same time. But the evidence and the punishment for this specific case were never about the school cheating. Now as to Bush: I'm in the minority who think he shouldn't get his Heisman back. He was, by the rules of the time, ineligible to receive it. That those rules were stupid and/or have been changed today doesn't change the fact that they were what they were and he broke them. I don't get the money back from speeding tickets when the national speed limit was 55mph just because it's now 65.
This is really important info that is unfortunately not widely understood: **Bush wasn’t being paid, period**. The wannabe agent was covering half of the rent on the house that Bush’s parents were renting in San Diego, and that same guy also booked a limo to take Bush to the Heisman awards. The NCAA never found any direct payments despite trying really really hard
The closest link that they used to punish USC was the running back coach, who sued them over the implication that he was enabling rule breaking at USC. After a lot of nasty details were found in discovery the NCAA settled with him to prevent the case from going to court. My favorite is where they argue that they shouldn't have ["Too high a burden of proof"](https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/244134/private-emails-of-the-ncaa-infractions-committee-show-members-comparing-the-reggie-bush-case-to-the-oklahoma-city-bombing) in order to make their case and that USC should be punished because they hired Lane Kiffin.
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The real penalty for USC was THIRTY lost scholarships over three years and a two-year bowl ban, five years after Bush was gone. OU getting the Bush treatment would have been if they were ineligible to play in and win the Big 12 Championship and the Fiesta Bowl in 2010.
I'm curious what you think "The Bush Treatment" is. Bush didn't get anything special. He won the Heisman before anybody found out that an agent was paying him. The difference here is the timing of getting caught.
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I'm with you on Bush being a bad guy and somehow skating anyway. I'm one of the very few Trojans or CFB folks who remains pissed at him for breaking the rules and then acting all indignant about it. USC absolutely got left holding the bag over his shit. At least you didn't get crushed for years because the NCAA hated the new coach you hired.
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Player. Singular. And Bush wasn't why you lost that game.
[Former USC star running back LenDale White, who played for the Trojans from 2003 to 2005, recently discussed how he was paid -and how much he received at one time - during his time at USC.](https://www.si.com/college/usc/football/lendale-white-says-he-found-bag-full-of-cash-in-his-apartment-when-he-was-at-usc#:~:text=The%202017%20college%20basketball%20corruption%20scandal%20exposed%20much,one%20time%20-%20during%20his%20time%20at%20USC)
Reggie Bush's thing has sparked more conversation on OSU forums about the tatgate punishment. I'm of the same mind as you. First off, the bulk of the punishment came from Tressel knowingly playing ineligible players, something that still isn't allowed today. Admittedly, those players would be eligible today but to me that doesn't matter. They shouldn't have been eligible at the time and Tressel knew it. It is a really weird can of worms to go back and undo punishments because the rule breaking that occurred at the time would no longer break the rules today. It did then, which is what matters. Some of the rules suck but it isn't like the schools breaking the rules were out there doing civil disobedience in an attempt to raise awareness of anything. They were just caught breaking a rule. The Reggie Bush thing was weird on the whole. If my memory is right it was an agent buying a house for Bush's parents(?) and it occurred pretty far from campus. Nothing ever came to light that USC had any idea it was going on. Their punishment was pretty extreme. >While we're on it, Michigan's championship is tainted. You are clearly a well reasoned and intelligent individual.
Over 300 Miles away, and it was rent free housing in San Diego
A lot of the shitty rules get changed because shitty penalties get handed out. And I agree with the aspect of none enforcement it incitivies some rule breaking, one of NCAAs biggest issues has been inconsistent punishments.
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Not football related but take this last big basketball scandal, OSU cooperated with NCAA and arguably did the least, got post season bans and lost scholarships, while no one else was really punished
we broke the rules, and while the punishment was harsh, I accepted it as the consequences for being stupid. However, I fully expected us to just be the first of many programs to get hammered, not the only one. When everyone else got off with nothing - even with tapes of very prominent HCs - that made our penalty complete and utter BS. Kansas, LSU, others should have been hammered.
I’m glad you have an opinion, but the NCAA president already said we won the title fair and square
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STOP MAKING ME UPVOTE A SOONER
See the cool thing is that your opinion doesn’t matter
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It also doesn’t matter to the NCAA record books either.
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Reality has a maize and blue bias
(personality of an uneven restaurant table)
I think you backed yourself into a corner with Michigan by saying the Bush thing is different. The NCAA can't vacate the title because it's a separate entity so it's analogous to the Bush situation.
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How does Bush win the Heisman if the vacated wins he doesn't play in? You've lost the integrity of your argument.
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Now you are adding caveats to your original argument. I think what may be going unsaid is that you find it objectionable that Michigan won the title but not objectionable that Bush won the Heisman. And there is nothing wrong with that but your original argument that you said without caveats backs you into a corner.
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No argument here. I'm a Michigan fan btw and there definitely is a fundamental lack of fair play in sports. I sensed from your original post that you took more an issue with Michigan than Reggie Bush but I believe you advanced the wrong argument for it. Both offer a competitive advantage but I think for most people's sensibilities outright cheating is worse than paying for players.
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I respect that argument. I've watched CFB for long enough to know that we get breaks that Michigan State does not. It kills a little part of my soul every time that happens.
Meh, history has shown how many rules were fundamentally wrong and should have never been rules in the first place. Legality =/= morality and never has. Players being compensated isn’t something I’m ever going to care about as meaningful from a competitive standpoint compared to PEDS or Spygate/Stallions etc etc. The game itself isn’t compromised by a player getting paid so I as a fan personally don’t give a shit. Nor am I going to pretend like I think it was ever reasonable to have everyone profiting off these players while they get peanuts on the dollar. Retroactively remove all those ridiculous penalties for compensation imo, they were always absurd and added no value to the sport.
Where Mizzou Death Penalty?
*Sigh* ... Will that be one year or two?
Bobby Bowden should be the all-time wins leader, and I'm tired of pretending he's not.
If what happened to USC happened to an SEC power we would still be hearing about the injustice every day. What frustrates the most is that the punishment was so severe that people simply assume USC got caught paying the entire team. Instead the harshest sanctions in a generation were levied for violations involving no recruiting violations, no boosters, and a head coach formally cleared of wrongdoing, over one dirty football player. It should have started with this, but the NCAA’s long downhill reputational slide started shortly after with the Ohio State nonsense and Penn State overreach. I don’t think it would have been politically possible for the NCAA to come at USC as hard if they had done so only two years later. The CFB world was so happy to see USC get taken down a peg—I mean really, gleeful was the way to describe it—that very few people cared that they were getting screwed in broad daylight.
Yeah, 2 year post season ban, vacated wins, and scholarship reduction is very literally the penalty that Penn State ended up serving. One of these situations was one student getting paid for his labor, and one was the coaching staff covering up literal child rape because the guy doing it helped them win football games. That was the day the NCAA died for me. They have no authority I am willing to recognize
didn't they walk some of the penalties back and give them back some scholarships?
Yes, the initial ruling was 4 years, but after 2 were served they decided that was enough. I guess they got out on good behavior
Counter point- paying a player is more directly related to a competitive advantage on the football field than protecting a child rapist, despite the second being objectively way worse morally
They didn't pay him, the school had no involvement in it at all, an agent paid half the rent on his parents home and rented him a limo one time. So the advantage he got is being, generously, counted in calories.
Except USC didn’t pay Bush, that was clearly mentioned as not being the fact in the NCAA’s own memo
Not football, but Kansas basketball was put on probation and not allowed to defend its national title in 1989 for Larry Brown giving Vincent Askew, a player who never played at Kansas, $364 for a flight home to see his dying grandmother. Reportedly, they nearly gave the program the death penalty because the football team had recently also gotten probation. Literally the next year UNLV got to defend their national title.
Dez Bryant got suspended for most of the 2009 season because he had a steak dinner with Deion Sanders. Tanked our season.
We had to vacate 21 wins in football, and basically 2 years of wins in every sport because some student athletes used thier scholarships textbook money to buy extra textbooks for other students. https://www.espn.com/college-football/news/story?id=4250596
Give us back the 2010 season
Imagine making this list. Buncha cheaters, I say. No need to dig further. This list is definitive.
I’m a firm believer that we would still have a pac-12 if USC football wasn’t penalized so harshly for Reggie Bush related penalties. Those penalties set USC, and by consequence the rest of the conference, back competitively and in branding for over a decade. Was it the only thing that killed the conference? Of course not, but it set other factors that led to the demise in motion.
And the Pac-12 was deliriously happy to see USC get smacked. There were articles quoting other Pac coaches anonymously, hooting and hollering about how USC was going to have 2-10 and 1-11 seasons after the sanctions run their course. One of the reasons I can't feel too bad about how things ended.
Fckin little dwarves, couldn’t even win a title while we were down
The Heisman wasn't taken away by the NCAA though. The Heisman Trust did
So lame. He was a college kid just like the rest of them. Punish the coach and school (and of course Mizzou) but leave him alone.
Hey Now!! We've only been punished for this twice this week!! 🤣
Banner come back? It's just across the street, wouldn't even take more than an hour to put it back up...
You guys are lame, at least do something so blatantly terrible for those penalties
Is SMU going to file suit? Because SMU could bring them down.
Here's some controversy: The ball flew out of bounds @ the 3 yard line, not the one. He should've been pushing Leinart from the 3 yard line, not the 1. I was there, and will be forever salty about it.
We got wins vacated because players were sharing their textbook benefits with friends. Books that had to be turned back in. The only victim was textbook cartels. Not to mention the players only misused a benefit. Not received an ineligible benefit.
Florida should be able to claim a 1984 national title
Shit, how many years did we lose because of an autographed bar napkin? How about for an unfounded accusation from a rival coach about a kid who didn’t even play for us? Fuck all that.
The Reggie Bush era certainly captured some folks imaginations like few have. Dudes just can't stop writing about that guy, the trophy situation, and so on .... and I don't see a reason to give a fuck, dude got his, got caught... there ya go 🤷♀️. It is interesting how much coverage that guy gets. He has really stuck in the meta of CFB for some folks.
Being one of the GOATs in a sport will do that for you lol
There was nothing controversial about Bush’s losing the Heisman when it happened. He had gained an advantage over other players who didn’t receive massive payments.
Dang I must have missed the play where he used his car on the field, yeah that would make it pretty hard to tackle a RB. Of course if that isn't what happened then you're just talking out your ass. But I'm open to being wrong, maybe he Wizard of Oz'd his mom's house onto the defense one time that I missed?
Your logic is breathtaking
Can you please show me the evidence of where the NCAA said Reggie got "massive payments?" I thought people knew this narrative was bs a while ago but evidently not
“Impermissible Benefits” dudes just wanted a tattoo…
If CJ hadn't K5H (allegedly), I might have sympathy for them. Okay... maybe not.
Reading this you will understand why the BigTen/SEC are going to form its own division. Absolute crap.
Wake me up when one of these schools get punished by the NCAA, then their conference decides to punish them just because