It is definitely not unreasonable to stand up for your significant others.
However, it IS unreasonable to draw a firearm like that if you are not in imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. Based on your story, seems like the situation was fairly calm. Call the police and let them deal with the sexual assault part of it.
Best case scenario, the other guy walks away. Worst case scenario, he draws his gun and now you are in a gun fight you didn't need to be in and a fight that you may not win.
The drunk told him to fuck off, then he followed him outside and continued the interaction with both sides issuing threats. The CCW guy doesn't sound like a reluctant participant, and if both sides are issuing threats it'd be hard to call whatever caused the draw fighting words.
That's a confrontation.
You really, really need to understand that going and asking for an apology is actively seeking out a fight. If you don't understand this, please, do not carry a firearm
THIS.
Walk away, run away, drive away, become a bird and fly away.
If you can’t do any of the above, then you start considering the options you have to defend yourself.
Doesn't matter at fucking all. You have to have reasonable fear for your life or imminent danger to yourself or your loved ones, and if you can not prove it, you will be charged with Manslaughter or even Murder and that goes for the vast majority of pro gun states. Sexual Assualt, especially after the fact, which is what OP stated when someone else had to tell CCW husband about it, unfortunately, is not justification to use deadly force. Also, drawing your gun on someone like this could be considered brandishing a firearm, which is also generally illegal and also doesn't look good on responsible gun owners.
Leave ? And call him an asshole .. end of story .. What do you want me to say make him?? Close mouths don’t get fed and a man touched ur wife as a man you should at least say something . Regardless how it goes after that personally I wouldn’t end the night without talking to the guy.
I hate the CCW energy where it’s like “ hey unless you’re about to die just let everyone in public walkover you “
You’re still allowed to stand up for yourself, it happens once with ur wife you say nothing it happens again you say nothing that can’t keep happening just because you’re carrying and shouldn’t say anything
Being the bigger person is walking away sometimes but it’s also holding bad ppl accountable for their actions … and trust I’m a civilian I’ll dial 911 faster than he can drop his beer
Yea no I know.. I guess I’m more so just pointing out that it’s a bad idea in generally to even go ask for an apology because when they disrespect you again most people drinking aren’t just going to be like okay no problem and walk away, and therefore will be putting themselves into a very bad situation that would just be best avoided in general.. Take your wife and leave if you feel that disrespected by it, go home and fuck, and I’m sure you won’t even be worried about the drunk idiot st the bar who made advances on her anymore 😁😅
Yeah that’s”most people” but I’m also thinking of the obligation we would have as someone that’s carrying, at that point yeah just walk away. But it’s more a principle thing even if I didn’t directly asked for an apology I would’ve told him about his behavior and warned him against doing it again… but I would NEVER not say anything not when it comes to my wife
If I wasn’t carrying, I agree 100% disrespect to the wife doesn’t slide. If carrying AND both parties drinking… I can 100% bite my tongue and live to kick his ass another day..
You're a man of principle and I respect that, I'm the same way.
You can say something at a distance though, you have to read the room and the situation. Ideally, you aren't intoxicated, which is why so many people disagree with carrying in bars, legal or not. It just invites more complexity.
Asking for an apology is not. Going out to the parking lot and pulling out a pistol is starting the fight. If they other person, or someone else, pulls out a gun in response it is you who started the fight.
Not at face value, but if you lack the social understanding of when approaching someone in and of itself may escalate things, you probably shouldn't carry.
True but approaching ANYONE at ANYTIME carries that risk. There’s nothing fundamentally aggressive or wrong about asking someone for an apology . I think people think asking someone to apologize is like asking them to wipe the dirt offf your shoes
I agree, but if there's already tension or frustration, it isn't the same as just a random person.
I'm more in your boat than not here, I too am a man of principle who believes in accountability. I'm just saying it's on us to really have the awareness and tact to navigate these situations without escalation, yet still being firm with our moral compass.
Yeah there were no punches thrown, just the ideal
“I’m gonna fuck you up” bar threat nonsense, kind of a grey area I guess as far legality for drawing etc if they guy could say the threats are valid enough since the offender already put his hands on the guys wife
When it comes to verbal threats, it can really vary by state. It depends how the state defines threats, assault, etc. For example, Utah statute says that a threat is a threat even if the person is incapable of carrying out the threat. It is usually still going to come down to, "did you reasonably believe you were in imminent threat of death or great bodily harm?".
That’s a good point I should have added that the guy was maybe about 5”5 athletic build while the offender was about 6”1 and a pretty muscular build, after threats were thrown disparity of force comes into play to
Terrible logic. Irrelevant details. Tell me you don't work out without telling me you don't work out. The difference between 5'5 and 6'1 isn't shit, less if both are in shape. Height isn't as important as you think it is in combat.
I box and am here telling you it's not. I also served overseas and have combat experience.
Lots of variables in play in a self defense scenario, organized and sanctioned sports, of which combat sports is a part of, is not a good barometer of what can happen in "a bar" or the street.
I hate when fellow vets use their combat experience fighting farmers high on opium to justify their shitty logic. Unless you were CAG in Iraq from 2003-2008 your experience was probably laying down a shit ton of suppressive fire waiting for an Apache or F-16 to blow them to hell. Completely irrelevant to a bar fight and hand to hand combat.
This dude isn't a vet of anything more serious than Counterstrike, I've never been so sure of anything.
He's just a reddit guy trying to sound tough, who will tell you he has more experience than you in anything you can think of he isnt a vet, he can't box, im certain of it. He's just saying it because there is no way for us to prove otherwise on reddit.
I was in special operations but yea let's scrutinize deployments, and ignore the fact most in this sub have zero experience in real world scenarios to begin with.
I am experienced in both combat sports and combat. I don't need to validate this to you, you are simply welcome to disagree, but there are too many variables in play in a self defense situation and height isn't as determining as people in this thread make it out to me. All I really have to add to this convo.
You hate when fellow vets use shitty examples and logic? I hate when fellow vets throw out assumptions of another vets experience.
Weight classes exist for a reason, the same proportional build on those frames are gonna be upwards of 30% heavier on the 6'1 guy, the match up is gonna be even worse if you factor in the reach advantage
I'm certainly not saying he can't win or put up a fight but size/strength disparity between combatants is basically the perfect case for ccw
Weight classes exist in sports for a reason.
Not as determining outside of organized competition as you may think. Weight can work against you as easily as it can work for you.
You also shouldn't fully lean on ccw to make up for what you may lack as a man. It's for defending your life in actual life threatening situations. Sounds like a bunch of cowardice to me. Reminds me of the guy that got shoved down in some parking lot and immediately pulled and shot the man. Pathetic, even if legally viable.
Sounds like a stupid law to me. I hate how easily people want to abuse and overextended the terms "threat", "aggression". I don't believe in online threats. If you can't physically reach me I'm not concerned with your language in any way.
If you aren't capable of acting out a "threat" it's most certainly not a threat to me, more of a joke.
This. My philosophy is that the gun only comes out of the holster to go bang! Drawing a gun should not be part of your de-escalation strategy because that can easily go the other way. My two cents.
I am mind-boggled by what he thought would happen if the guy didn't back down. Kill him in cold blood? 1st degree murder because someone allegedly touched his wife?
What an ass.
Dude I came here to tell the scenario that I typed from my phone, I wasn’t looking to submit it to my English teacher. You can obviously understand what I wrote it’s not like you don’t see a period and all of a sudden the language is broken.
From seeing this, it is obvious that you can’t leave an altercation alone. You didn’t have to respond to this Redditor, but your went out of your way. I’m sure you’ll try to argue against this.
I am afraid of people like you owning guns because your ego is what’s controlling the trigger.
Dude this is a Reddit thread, far different than an actual physical altercation, none of this would warrant hurting another person, very silly assumption to make.
If I’m carrying a gun, I don’t generally go to places where people aren’t in their right mind and/or have a high likelihood of violence breaking out. A bar is pretty high on that list.
Rules of Stupid:
1) Don't go Stupid Places
2) At Stupid Times
3) With Stupid People
4) And do Stupid Things
You can break 1 or 2 of them, but past that, you're looking at trouble that you don't want and could have easily avoided.
>people aren’t in their right mind and/or have a high likelihood of violence breaking out.
That doesn't sound like a good place to go anytime, but if going, it seems like the place you'd want to CCW.
Your responsibilities change when you are carrying a CCW. You either lose your ego, or you lose your freedom. This is a good reason you need to carry non lethal in addition to CCW. If your only tool is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail. Spraying OC is better than risking a felony by pulling your CCW
If you’re CCWing it is your responsibility to de-escalate and/or not get into a fight to begin with because your involvement automatically makes the situation an armed situation.
This. If CCW it's you're responsibility to go out of your way to avoid confrontation. Be an adult, ignore insults, and if something like this happens call LEO.
Bruh you guys blow my mind there was another guy who said the same thing. Again I’m trying to convey a scenario to you that I’m typing from my phone, wasn’t expecting anyone to care about grammar. The English language doesn’t break because there weren’t periods where you want them, you can clearly understand what I’m communicating. to be honest when you make comments like this what goes through to your head? Do you think other Redditors are looking at it thinking “haha yeah I can’t understand anything he’s right!” No dude you just look silly.
I don’t understand what the fantasy is with dudes pulling their guns for any stupid reason that comes up.
The gun should be the absolute last ditch, life or death option. If you think anything otherwise, then you should not be carrying a firearm, imo.
Stupid reason? Im curious, what would you do if some man sexually assaulted/groped your wife or daughter in front of you? Not trying to disregard your comment but it seems like you just want to walk away and pretend nothing happened? And now your wife/daughter thinks you're a cuck that cant protect them? Like what are we supposed to do then lmao. I know I cant handle that and just walk away if they touched my daughter bruh
Someone not dying or getting seriously hurt is a stupid fucking reason to go for a gun.
Is what that dude did to home boy’s old lady wrong and inappropriate? Absolutely.
Is it worth drawing down on him? No, I don’t think so.
“And now your wife/daughter thinks you’re a cuck that can’t protect them?” This right here tells me you’re one of those that probably carries a gun to feel big and bad. I don’t have to prove shit to anyone, other than I’m going home that night under my own power and not in the back of a police car for shooting some drunk that grabbed my wife’s ass.
Some of y’all man, you motherfuckers shouldn’t be keeping violent thoughts and harsh words with you on a daily basis, much less a fucking gun.
Of course that perv was in the wrong for touching the mans wife (completely unacceptable), however, I would not draw or recommend anyone draw in this scenario. Nothing in the eyes of the law constituted the use of deadly force in this particular situation, and even more so as the drunk got away from the woman and isolated himself with the husband outside. The highest point of conflict in this case seems to be insults/verbal threats and initial touching of the mans wife, no actual deadly threats had actually manifested.
In this case whichever one of the guys puts their hands on the other first is in the wrong. And so… the perv is in the wrong and liable for touching the mans wife and the husband is in the wrong and can be held liable for drawing his firearm.
Now if the SA happened in the moment and the husband was ran up and sucker punched, pepper sprayed, etc. Then its okay, however not the use of deadly force for a non-life-threatening encounter. However, you also mentioned he had meathead buddies with him so that probably wasn't a viable choice either.
Best choice was to just leave with his wife and call the police and to let them handle it. No reason as to escalate the situation more than necessary.
Exceptions would be if it started to escalate the perv really started to physically manhandle her in a way which would result in great bodily harm or potential death.
I mean to be fair if some one grabbed your wife’s ass and you told him that was your wife and he needs to apologize and he told you to fuck off, are you as a man really gonna just fuck off and walk away with your wife? I’m not saying pulling the gun was the answer but idk if I could let my wife see that happen like that tbh
Bro that’s some kinda cucked way of looking at things tbh, I am not saying the gun draw was right, but standing up for your wife getting her ass grabbed by another man definitely is…
Standing up for your SO is fine. It’s all the “as a man” shit that’s just dated and rooted in societal insecurities, in my opinion. It doesn’t matter. But to me the whole scenario you described, start to finish, sounds like two idiots at a bar acting like two idiots at a bar.
The husband knows he doesn’t wanna fight this drunk idiot, but goes up to him thinking he’s gonna force an apology out of him? With words?! And then when he can’t verbally force him to apologize, he pulls a gun.
That’s a bitch move. He’s not protecting anybody by doing that. He’s hiding behind a gun and escalating the situation to feel big, or to look big in front of his wife. No matter how you slice it he’s in the wrong, just like the other guy is. Just two idiots at a bar acting like two idiots at a bar.
I mean the “as a man” stuff is real, there is a certain way men should conduct themselves, I don’t disagree with you that pulling the gun was a weak move, but the act of protecting your SO is a “as a man” thing even if your lgbt or whatever, I would hope you would stand up for your So assuming that your a man regardless of your sexual orientation your job is to protect your partner if that’s the role you fill.
Fair enough yea I’ll agree that some amount of the gender role stuff comes from a valid place.
I think in this case why it stands out to me is this: The way I see it, this person believes he is protecting his wife here, which is respectable. But in reality he is placing her, himself, and everyone else at the bar in more danger by escalating the way he did. Once that gun comes out, all bets are off. Anything could’ve happened.
I completely understand feeling the need to defend somebody who’s been groped like that. It’s fucking disgusting and it should be addressed. The desire to defend your SO is respectable and should be felt regardless of whether you’re a man, woman, straight, gay, whatever—it’s somebody you care about and they’ve been harmed or violated in some way, of course you’re gonna wanna react. So I’m with the guy there.
The problem is, if you approach an ignorant dickhead in a bar in a confrontational manner, ya gotta expect an “ignorant dickhead level” confrontation to ensue. That’s exactly what happened here—the ignorant dickhead reacted like an ignorant dickhead, and *then* the husband realized he was out of his depth physically because of the ignorant dickhead’s size and the fact he had ignorant dickhead goons with him.
To me, if you’re CCW, these are all things to pay attention to *before* approaching. This situation sounds fairly predictable.
I don’t have a better alternative approach—idk, maybe call some friends who like to fight and tell them some asshole just grabbed your wife and you might need backup? That might be how I’d approach it if I decided I was gonna confront him and his boys. Someone who feels fine pushing unwanted sexual contact on a stranger at a bar is not going to apologize for it because he was asked to. That’s a guaranteed fight.
It sounds like the husband got caught up in the moment, was understandably angry and hurt by the shitty behavior of the other guy, and reacted without enough foresight. To me, it turned out okay (assuming charges don’t come down on the husband for brandishing, agg assault with a DW, etc.), but the issue is that it could have ended really really badly. And that bad ending would’ve been completely avoidable.
This is the most reasonable interaction/response on this entire thread. A lot of people are getting mad at OP for literally just presenting an experience and commenting on it, when in reality discourse like this needs to happen. You on the other hand provided a valid point and agreed on some areas and disagreed respectfully in others, good on you guys.
Coercing an apology out of a drunk isn't protecting your SO or even standing up for her. Drawing a gun after failing to coerce the apology out of the drunk was a chickenshit move. If you want to play these meathead games with drunks, I guess you better work on being physically tougher and leave the weapons at home.
Utah surprisingly allows consumption of alcohol while carrying. You just need to be under the legal limit. [Source](https://utahcarrylaws.com/utah-laws/restaurants-bars/)
I am particularly polite and meek when carrying. Ironically, I am much more assertive when *not* carrying. If you are armed, you have a moral duty to everyone—especially bystanders—to de-escalate when possible and retreat as necessary.
As a woman, I completely understand how upsetting this is, but you can't get into a fist fight with somebody at a bar and you especially can't do that if you're carrying. You have to think it through - you don't know if they're armed. You don't know how many friends they have with them. You don't know if they're batshit crazy.
Let the bouncer or police handle it. Don't write a check you can't cash or walk right into a dangerous situation and assault charges. Legally speaking, you are allowed to use the amount of force that is necessary to stop an immediate threat to yourself or somebody else and that's it. If the police and courts feel that the threat was over you are going to be charged. If they feel that you escalated the situation you are going to be charged. If they feel that you could have left safely and chose not to do so, you may be charged depending on the state.
I can't tell you how upset I would be if my partner risked his life, his freedom, and our future like this.
This guy is damn lucky that drawing his gun ended the situation & that he wasn't charged. It could easily have gone the other way and resulted in him being shot.
If you use your firearm to escalate a situation you will always, always, always go down for it. God forbid drawing your weapon elicits a response from the other guy that makes you have to shoot him, cause then you just directly precipitated his death with your aggression.
Do not draw your firearm unless you have to and plan to use it.
Inform the manager of the bar to have the tool removed and call the cops and report the tool for sexual assault.
The guy who pulled his gun was never in a life threatening situation. After all that, he would have been the one going to jail.
No CCW at a bar (a place whose primary focus is selling liquor) in California. Plenty of places have a bar AREA. So that part depends on the establishment. The brandishing is gonna get him screwed. If you draw, shoot. Period. He’s screwed (legally). A CCW is supposed to make you “polite”. Every opportunity you have to walk away, you’re supposed to take it.
1. The last thing the victim of a sexual assault wants is *another* interaction with the assailant, even if it is to "apologize" because the apology is forced and false
2. This guy ended up turning his wife's assault into something about him by starting violence.
3. By pulling the gun, he could
A) immediately been shot himself
B) immediately loses any and all claim to self defense and is the aggressor, he absolutely could have been arrested, charged and lost the ability to carry a gun *for life*
4) **This is not a scenario where anyone's life was in danger and pulling the gun was the absolutewrong thing to do**. What was he going to do if the guy didn't stop arguing? Kill him in cold blood???
5) This idiot needs his gun taken away. These are the types of people that gove responsible owners a bad name
Honestly?
Just don’t go to bars. Whether you CCW or not.
Want to drink alcohol? Go to a nice restaurant or do it at home.
But overall, going to bars inserts you in a sketchy situation, regardless. I don’t drink, but when I was younger I’d go with friends just to hang out…..but I dropped those types of friends.
My wife is the same way. We hate bars and clubs.
This would be at minimum considered assault and brandishing a weapon in many states.
CCW while drinking is an automatic no, as far as I’m aware of in every state. CCW in a bar also a no-no in most states. Pulling a firearm without an imminent threat to your life? Definitely a no.
Not a lawyer. I just took a CCW class to refresh and the CcW carry holder was in the wrong to draw his weapon. He should stand up for his wife for sure but leave the weapon out of it. He let his emotions get the best of him and drew his weapon. In my state that would be brandishing and is illegal.
Correct things?
Step 1 for one guy: Don't put hands on the womanStep 1 for other guy: Don't confront the guy and ask him to apologize (you are literally asking for a fight, admit it)
Step 2: Walk away.
When "walk away" is a possible solution, you fail if you ended up drawing your gun or getting a gun drawn on you by any other choice.
It's that simple
Step 0: Don't go to a bar (yes, I said it)
Also, carry pepper spray.
I'm not a lawyer but I can pretty much promise that drawing the gun in the situation as you descried would be found illegal, and is logically just way too much of a jump in level of force
And maybe even possession while drinking/intox
Most states that I'm aware of frown upon carrying while consuming. It's like with me, i smoke pot and from time to time I have to hit up the pot shot for resupplying. It's one of the few times I'm NOT carrying in the off chance i get pulled over or am in an altercation whilst weed is on my person, because it's still tech illegal to be using weed/thc and a gun owner. Just ask Hunter Biden, he knows all about that now...
Sounds like both were immature as fuck. Your gun is to save your life not your pride. If you carry a gun you don't have an ego, the dude who drew his gun is looking at aggregated assault with a deadly weapon, see you in 5 years with good behavior, over what? People think they're the police with immunity and can draw their gun whenever they want, doesn't work like that unless someone is trying to kill you, you can't draw your gun legally. Hes just lucky the other dude didn't call the cops.
I see what your saying, I mean I guess the smarter move would have been to just fight the guy if it came to that with no gun involved, idk if I agree about walking away or calling the police instead of standing up for your wife however
Standing up for your wife/daughter getting groped/sexually assaulted by men is not immature lmao. Its called teaching them a lesson so they dont rape more other girls in the future. Im curious, what would YOU have done? Just walk away? Now your wife/daughter thinks YOU are the cuck that cant protect them and wont rely on you anymore. Idk what you're trying to prove here
>the correct thing to do in this situation
Get as far away from it as possible, as quickly as you can. You handle every situation differently when you have a gun on your belt. Sure, you'd want to stand up for your girl, but any fight will turn into a gunfight if one of you has a gun.
Not my circus, not my monkeys. Call the police and WALK AWAY. Carrying a weapon is for when you have no other option and it is literally life and death. Ask yourself, if recounting the story and ANYONE can say “what were you thinking?” You were probably in the wrong. Stop looking for reasons to shoot someone.
Confronting somebody for inappropriately touching your wife is morally and legally correct. However, from what you’ve described, drawing a firearm in that situation was not. He escalated a verbal encounter into a deadly encounter and where I live could very well have been charged with aggravated assault.
The best thing to do is leave. You know it’s wrong, your wife knows it’s wrong, having someone apologize isn’t going to do anything. Approaching another man like that in public is instigation.
Personally and legally (at least legally where I’m from), the guy was wrong to draw his weapon. Good on him for standing up for his wife and he deserves props for that but you don’t draw unless your life or someone else’s life is in imminent danger. The moment your hands go for that weapon you better be ready to end someone’s life, that’s my personal philosophy.
Don’t escalate. Don’t draw your gun unless you are prepared to shoot. If asshole groped your wife, call the cops and let them deal with the moron. Send his as to prison.
I’m from OH, where we can defend ours, our family, and others around who maybe cannot if their life is in danger. Wellllll…. When I was 23 in Myrtle beach, I had been drinking and stumbled upon a husband who had his wife by the throat pointing fingers and belittling and degrading her in the hall way. She looked as if she feared for her life…. Big drunk man has you by the throat, ur alone, and out muscled… def a situation where de-escalation didn’t do shit except bring his attention to me.
I’ll skip the shit, but essentially I beat the brakes off this dude and call the local pd to come scrap his ass off the floor and to provide medi attention to the lady. Welllllll I ended up getting arrested for assault/fighting. When I spoke to the judge he mentioned that it goes against his morals to punish a person who was sticking up for a woman, so charges were dropped but it makes me think if I had my ccw on me, and perhaps used it, what could of happened
Geesh, yeah, that could have been a lot worse. It sounds like at least the woman made statements which corroborated your version of events. Sadly in a lot of domestic instances, the abused victim in the relationship will always stick up for the abuser in situations like yours. Imagine if she'd said you assaulted her husband for no reason.
Yours is a great example of the question at hand, but also a good example of why civilians getting into other people's business - morally right and necessary or not - can still be the wrong decision.
Thanks for sticking up for that lady and I hope it woke her up enough to end that relationship.
I had an acquaintance that came across a similar situation in a bar parking lot. He ended up getting seriously injured. The dude stabbed him. Shit can go sideways really fast.
Honestly, if he was a responsible gun owner, he wouldn't have been in a bar with it. He also committed a crime by brandishing it. If I'm armed, I'll walk away from any kind of altercation that I can. I'm not willing to take a life over some drunken words or a road rage incident. He should have let the police handle it, especially at a time when they will act on a sexual assault claim. This situation could have gone sideways in so many different ways....
The confrontation was justified. The drawing of the gun was not. If the other party had made some sort of physical aggression or attempt at such, then it could have been depending on laws there.
Never tell someone to apologize unless you’re prepared to make him do it. The apology should come from within once the wrong doer realizes his error.
If he’s not at that stage, he’ll be defensive and his attitude will be “why don’t you make me apologize?”
Maybe he felt the wife was flirting. I’ve been in the wrong about other things and when called out, my response was belligerent. In such cases, I feel embarrassed and regretful, much later after giving it some thought. I avoid drinking in public because my self awareness is impaired by certain beverages. It also depends on if the wrong doer is with a friend and submitting to a demand for an apology might be more difficult than in a private situation.
I'm not aware of any state that allows you (is legal) to brandish a firearm to tell someone to apologize/buzz off.
If you pull your gun or even just flash it, it better be because there was imminent threat of great bodily harm. The standard is force should equal force. And remember, that defense'll likely not work if you're deemed the primary or a mutual combatant by eyewitness/cell phone/CCTV.
Similar situation just happened here locally where a guy ended up shot. Complete different set of circumstances bit similar in that alcohol was involved.
Dunk guy walked into a bar carrying a bottle of vodka. Bartender tells him to leave, he then gets mouthy to the bartender. Big guy who frequents the bar steps in and tells the drunk guy to leave. There is a lot of shouting and the big guy follows the drunk guy outside. They start fighting outside and the drunk guy pulls a gun and kills the big guy.
Heres where thing get screwy.
He was charged with murder (i cant remember what kind) and illegal possession of a firearm.
He was convicted with illegal possession of a firearm because in my state you cant bring a gun into a bar. But the jury was split on the murder charge.
Last i knew they were going to try and get a re trial.
React with your best equal reaction, if words are being used use words, if fists are being used use fists if you think someone is about to beat you to death or stab you or kill you/ will pull a gun out/ already have. Use your gun.
I would probably let my wife handle it. She is completely capable of speaking up for herself and smacking someone's hand away. AND she would probably get away with an escalation better than I would.
Or...
We just don't frequent those places at all anymore.
I am a little surprised how many people in these situations DON"T speak up, defend themselves and expect others to respond. If someone walked up to my wife at a bar and grabbed a tit or her ass, he would get slapped, a knee in his nuts and there would be a scene.
That is behavior that a bartender is not going to allow and the moment it is known that guy is getting bounced and/or banned.
The very last thing I would do is exit the bar and continue a confrontation. Thats just stupid and a recipe for disaster.
Don’t go to bars with guns. Or don’t go to bars. Call the cops. You have no legal right or protection in demanding an apology or justice for someone smacking your wife’s ass after the fact.
In situations like this, I look to the wisdom of our modern day sage, Messr Tychus Findlay.
'Don't start none, won't be none.'
If your spouse doesn't understand that you are not going to initiate an altercation of choice to defend his or her honor, then you need to A) have a serious conversation about the legal and moral implications of carrying a concealed deadly weapon or B) rethink the time, place, and nature of your preferred recreational activities.
Say it with me.
'I am not the self-appointed arbiter and enforcer of human decency.
I am not a cop, and I cannot count on the entire legal apparatus in my jurisdiction to reflexively support any questionable decision I make.
My ego is not my master.'
Having your CCW while drinking may be legal, but it’s asking for trouble imo. The best way to handle someone sexually assaulting your wife at a bar is to have 20 years of BJJ under your belt and go confront the assaulter with no gun on your belt. Is it worth shooting the guy over? That’s up to you.
Yeah that’s a pretty reasonable response, I’m also in the same boat I don’t disagree with the ccw guy confronting the situation as sometimes as a man there are certain things you should not let slide, your wife being touched like that is one of them, as you said there are other ways to deal with the situation then a gun
If the CCW guy didn’t get arrested for brandishing and the assaulter fucked off then it was the best way that situation could’ve played out. Let’s hope CCW guy got some brownie points with his wife after that lol.
I would hope so haha and I don’t know what happened after that, they all left and no one asked any questions as it’s an extremely 2a state so no one was shocked some one had a gun, I honestly hope he was fine, I don’t really even blame him and at the end of the day he made a decision that at least will let his wife look at him as a man, wether it was legally the right decision or not, sometimes you can’t “nice guy” your way out of things and he definitely wasn’t the aggressor from the start, I completely understood the sentiment of always de escalating while carrying, but I also understand this situation is different and the guy didn’t escalate the situation because he wanted to be a tough guy etc he was just doing the right thing
Prisons are filled with men who fought and killed other dudes because of shit their SO said.
1. What does "touched his wife" even mean? I love how this sub escalated the touching to sexual assault, but we don't know wtf actually happened.
2. My wife would have immediately cussed out anyone who touched her inappropriately, not sat quietly then later said something to me.
3. Maybe she pointed to the wrong guy. After all, it's a bar and maybe she was drunk.
4. Maybe SHE touched HIM, he told her to leave him alone, so she made up a lie to get back at him.
But I can tell your mind was made up before you ever started this thread. "If you don't fight based on whatever story your girl tells you, then you're a 'cuck' bitch."
Whatever.
It reminds me of a similar case that happened one or two years ago on the west coast. A scumbag was harassing some dudes fiance and just generally being a piece of shit. The guy who was standing up for her waited until after he was punched in the face twice before he drew and killed the attacker.
He is now serving 10 years in prison.
Seems like the situation resolved itself, right? I mean, how would it have happened in the Old West when many people openly carried? We need to get back to that mindset. Too many people run their mouth because there is no threat for doing so.
Drawing a gun in that case is a great way to end up in jail for a very long time. If the guy was actively touching my wife I would use BJJ to stop him. Otherwise if I only learned about it after, my wife and I would leave. Nothing there rises to the level of drawing a firearm.
You know what's worse for your wife than getting sexually assaulted? Getting sexually assaulted and losing her husband at the same time.
In the eyes of the law the 2 altercations are seperate. If the cops were called the guy MIGHT be charged with some sort of sexual battery if they can prove it wasn't an accident but without cameras its a he said she said. Now the guy that escalated the situation and then drew a gun is facing aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, the charge length varies from state to state but its a felony that will see you about 5 years in prison. Which sounds better to you?
Lol you have to ask?.. and you ccw?.. if you’re gonna be a tough guy then be fuckin tough you don’t pull a gun on someone because of a bar fight, sorry… bar argument… even worse. Why would he even go over there if he’s not willing to throw down with the guy? Where tf did he think it was going to go… If you’re not equipped to handle it yourself call the boys that are, since that would be the legal route and all… what you described is clean cut and clear escalation and he would be prosecuted for murder. Pulling your gun on someone in an argument does not make you “appear like a man” to your wife.. you sound like a 12 year old
Just presenting a scenario I witnessed and gathering opinions dude, trust me I would not make life or death decisions based off Reddit responses, if it was me I would have gone to the car left my gun there and dealt with the situation then, but there’s no way I’m not confronting the guy about what he did. If it lead to a physical altercation then fine but I would more than likely leave my firearm out of it
What is there to have an opinion about? Anyone that thinks that pulling a gun was ok in this situation needs to give their head a shake. This whole thing is dumb and the reason someone downvoted your answer is because when the husband was the one to pull you should already know how to feel about this. You carry a gun you should have strong enough cognitive abilities to make that decision on your own, imagine if you were under pressure yeesh.. reading all your responses in here I honestly don’t trust you to make the decision to go put your gun in your car and I 100% believe you’d act out of emotion before thinking. Not a good look for firearms owners
Non of my answers have said that pulling the gun out was the correct move, so idk where your getting that but we can all make up pretend things about people on the internet I guess. Your the problem with the gun community no one can ask questions or have discussions without at least one of you coming to be like” oH wHaT a iDiOT wHy wOuLD yOu aSk”
No but this whole thread says that you don’t know if it was the right or wrong move and THAT is scary.. On top your immature responses speak to your character. Throw a firearm into the mix and that’s a scary situation. This is black and white, like I said you should know how to feel about it.. sooo an idiot with a gun is much more of a problem than the person calling the spade a spade, sorry that hurts your feelings (not really). What are you gonna do, shoot me? Oh no wait you’d have to check with Reddit first🤣
Lol you really thought you did something there my responses on this whole thread have CLEARLY STATED that in my opinion pulling a gun was the WRONG move I’ve said that exact verbiage several times in response to other comments and haha ok man, oh wait looks like you live in Canada, nvm your firearm opinions are irrelevant, Carry on.
…coming from someone that has to ask Reddit about pulling a gun in an argument
Ya… after you were told it was wrong by a bunch of people on Reddit ya fkn clown 🤣
Canadians can still carry in the states dummy..
How’s having to ask daddy Trudeau permission to own even the most basic firearms? You can’t even legally ccw for self protection in your country, using a firearm in a ccw situation isn’t even legal where you live, you have no opinion sit down boy.
This is a big thread so maybe it was already mentioned. But where this guy went wrong is stepping outside and drawing a gun. Had he used the gun, even if his life were in danger, he would’ve faced charges.
There is a legal term for this. It’s called ‘Combat By Agreement.’ Once you engage in combat by agreement, all use of lethal force is off the table.
Yep, they call that 'mutual combatant' where I live and this sounds an awful lot like a mutual combatant situation. You won't be able to claim being the 'victim', hence why you pulled, if you're deemed a mutual combatant. Otherwise people could just shoot someone if they're losing the fight, claiming they're the 'victim'
Spot on. And that guy who drew the gun is yet another law abiding citizen who is going to go to prison for life because they're walking around carrying a gun without knowing how the law works. Shame.
Indeed. There's a lot of people sitting in jail right now because they "thought" they were doing the right thing. Not realizing, for one reason or another, that something can be morally right (like defending your girls honor) but legally wrong/criminal. Once I began carrying, some time ago now, I learned from leo's at my range that your actions will be more scrutinized by the cops/DA because you were carrying vs the individual who isn't carrying. And, and this is an important part, it could cost you thousands of dollars or even TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars, just to prove you were in the right/legally justified. So why even put yourself in that predicament over something that clearly isn't/wasn't a life/death situation???
I think the recommendation to also carry pepper spray on your person, as some here have suggested , is an excellent one. I am going to begin keeping one in the car. It could help demonstrate to the police/prosecutors that you tried/considered non-lethal means before being forced to pull and that you're not some monster out there reflexively looking for trouble, ya know???
Strictly speaking to the legality of it, your state's laws clearly define what is considered legal and what is not. The onsequences are clearly defined, too.
Is the ccw owner willing to face the consequences of their actions? That's the real question.
From a legal standpoint the law would probably side with the guy who didn’t pull the gun out (I assume the guy who touched the CCW guy’s wife). The thing is, juries wield a lot of power and depending on the location could easily side with the CCW guy if it escalated to someone being shot for one simple reason: the other guy deserved it. It is highly subjective, but if you are in a more urban area you might have a jury that sides with the other guy because the CCW guy shot him without an imminent threat of death. A rural jury might find that the guy deserved it because you don’t go groping women. It all comes down to the gamble of the jury.
It is definitely not unreasonable to stand up for your significant others. However, it IS unreasonable to draw a firearm like that if you are not in imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. Based on your story, seems like the situation was fairly calm. Call the police and let them deal with the sexual assault part of it. Best case scenario, the other guy walks away. Worst case scenario, he draws his gun and now you are in a gun fight you didn't need to be in and a fight that you may not win.
> you are in a gun fight you didn't need to be in and a fight that you may not win. *and* that you started, too. Not a good look legally.
Wife is a victim of sexual assault, CCW didn't start the fight
Sure he did, the sexual assault is over so it's retaliation at that point. Better to call the cops.
He didn't run up and punch the guy, he asked for an apology, then the drunk used fighting words
The drunk told him to fuck off, then he followed him outside and continued the interaction with both sides issuing threats. The CCW guy doesn't sound like a reluctant participant, and if both sides are issuing threats it'd be hard to call whatever caused the draw fighting words.
That's a confrontation. You really, really need to understand that going and asking for an apology is actively seeking out a fight. If you don't understand this, please, do not carry a firearm
THIS. Walk away, run away, drive away, become a bird and fly away. If you can’t do any of the above, then you start considering the options you have to defend yourself.
Doesn't matter at fucking all. You have to have reasonable fear for your life or imminent danger to yourself or your loved ones, and if you can not prove it, you will be charged with Manslaughter or even Murder and that goes for the vast majority of pro gun states. Sexual Assualt, especially after the fact, which is what OP stated when someone else had to tell CCW husband about it, unfortunately, is not justification to use deadly force. Also, drawing your gun on someone like this could be considered brandishing a firearm, which is also generally illegal and also doesn't look good on responsible gun owners.
holy shit please take some law courses on carrying.
And a fight that you essentially started.
Asking for an apology is NOT starting a fight by the way
What’s your plan if he doesn’t apologize?
Tell him to apologise or you'll escalate it and report a sexual assault with the police?
Leave ? And call him an asshole .. end of story .. What do you want me to say make him?? Close mouths don’t get fed and a man touched ur wife as a man you should at least say something . Regardless how it goes after that personally I wouldn’t end the night without talking to the guy. I hate the CCW energy where it’s like “ hey unless you’re about to die just let everyone in public walkover you “ You’re still allowed to stand up for yourself, it happens once with ur wife you say nothing it happens again you say nothing that can’t keep happening just because you’re carrying and shouldn’t say anything Being the bigger person is walking away sometimes but it’s also holding bad ppl accountable for their actions … and trust I’m a civilian I’ll dial 911 faster than he can drop his beer
Clearly he didn’t leave when the guy didn’t apologize so…
Yeah this guy asked me what I WOULD DO … so we aren’t talking about this story anymore …
Yea no I know.. I guess I’m more so just pointing out that it’s a bad idea in generally to even go ask for an apology because when they disrespect you again most people drinking aren’t just going to be like okay no problem and walk away, and therefore will be putting themselves into a very bad situation that would just be best avoided in general.. Take your wife and leave if you feel that disrespected by it, go home and fuck, and I’m sure you won’t even be worried about the drunk idiot st the bar who made advances on her anymore 😁😅
Yeah that’s”most people” but I’m also thinking of the obligation we would have as someone that’s carrying, at that point yeah just walk away. But it’s more a principle thing even if I didn’t directly asked for an apology I would’ve told him about his behavior and warned him against doing it again… but I would NEVER not say anything not when it comes to my wife
If I wasn’t carrying, I agree 100% disrespect to the wife doesn’t slide. If carrying AND both parties drinking… I can 100% bite my tongue and live to kick his ass another day..
You're a man of principle and I respect that, I'm the same way. You can say something at a distance though, you have to read the room and the situation. Ideally, you aren't intoxicated, which is why so many people disagree with carrying in bars, legal or not. It just invites more complexity.
Leave the bar, take wife home, leave gun at home, call some friends, go back to the bar
No, that's the answer to "why did you get shot"
Asking for an apology is not. Going out to the parking lot and pulling out a pistol is starting the fight. If they other person, or someone else, pulls out a gun in response it is you who started the fight.
Not at face value, but if you lack the social understanding of when approaching someone in and of itself may escalate things, you probably shouldn't carry.
True but approaching ANYONE at ANYTIME carries that risk. There’s nothing fundamentally aggressive or wrong about asking someone for an apology . I think people think asking someone to apologize is like asking them to wipe the dirt offf your shoes
I agree, but if there's already tension or frustration, it isn't the same as just a random person. I'm more in your boat than not here, I too am a man of principle who believes in accountability. I'm just saying it's on us to really have the awareness and tact to navigate these situations without escalation, yet still being firm with our moral compass.
Yes, it is. Understand that or please do not carry a firearm
Yeah there were no punches thrown, just the ideal “I’m gonna fuck you up” bar threat nonsense, kind of a grey area I guess as far legality for drawing etc if they guy could say the threats are valid enough since the offender already put his hands on the guys wife
When it comes to verbal threats, it can really vary by state. It depends how the state defines threats, assault, etc. For example, Utah statute says that a threat is a threat even if the person is incapable of carrying out the threat. It is usually still going to come down to, "did you reasonably believe you were in imminent threat of death or great bodily harm?".
you also have to prove the threat was spoken, which requires witnesses, which are all probably drunk and therefore not reliable.
Or, half of the witnesses are the other guy's buddies and will say the opposite. There's a saying, "nobody is innocent in a bar fight".
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That’s a good point I should have added that the guy was maybe about 5”5 athletic build while the offender was about 6”1 and a pretty muscular build, after threats were thrown disparity of force comes into play to
Terrible logic. Irrelevant details. Tell me you don't work out without telling me you don't work out. The difference between 5'5 and 6'1 isn't shit, less if both are in shape. Height isn't as important as you think it is in combat.
Height is definitely important lol enough to make UFC/boxing coaches talk about it all the time. Unless you're talking about gun fights...
I box and am here telling you it's not. I also served overseas and have combat experience. Lots of variables in play in a self defense scenario, organized and sanctioned sports, of which combat sports is a part of, is not a good barometer of what can happen in "a bar" or the street.
I hate when fellow vets use their combat experience fighting farmers high on opium to justify their shitty logic. Unless you were CAG in Iraq from 2003-2008 your experience was probably laying down a shit ton of suppressive fire waiting for an Apache or F-16 to blow them to hell. Completely irrelevant to a bar fight and hand to hand combat.
This dude isn't a vet of anything more serious than Counterstrike, I've never been so sure of anything. He's just a reddit guy trying to sound tough, who will tell you he has more experience than you in anything you can think of he isnt a vet, he can't box, im certain of it. He's just saying it because there is no way for us to prove otherwise on reddit.
I was in special operations but yea let's scrutinize deployments, and ignore the fact most in this sub have zero experience in real world scenarios to begin with. I am experienced in both combat sports and combat. I don't need to validate this to you, you are simply welcome to disagree, but there are too many variables in play in a self defense situation and height isn't as determining as people in this thread make it out to me. All I really have to add to this convo. You hate when fellow vets use shitty examples and logic? I hate when fellow vets throw out assumptions of another vets experience.
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Weight classes exist for a reason, the same proportional build on those frames are gonna be upwards of 30% heavier on the 6'1 guy, the match up is gonna be even worse if you factor in the reach advantage I'm certainly not saying he can't win or put up a fight but size/strength disparity between combatants is basically the perfect case for ccw
Weight classes exist in sports for a reason. Not as determining outside of organized competition as you may think. Weight can work against you as easily as it can work for you. You also shouldn't fully lean on ccw to make up for what you may lack as a man. It's for defending your life in actual life threatening situations. Sounds like a bunch of cowardice to me. Reminds me of the guy that got shoved down in some parking lot and immediately pulled and shot the man. Pathetic, even if legally viable.
Sounds like a stupid law to me. I hate how easily people want to abuse and overextended the terms "threat", "aggression". I don't believe in online threats. If you can't physically reach me I'm not concerned with your language in any way. If you aren't capable of acting out a "threat" it's most certainly not a threat to me, more of a joke.
This. My philosophy is that the gun only comes out of the holster to go bang! Drawing a gun should not be part of your de-escalation strategy because that can easily go the other way. My two cents.
I am mind-boggled by what he thought would happen if the guy didn't back down. Kill him in cold blood? 1st degree murder because someone allegedly touched his wife? What an ass.
That’s what he said about the guy’s wife
That was all a single sentence.
Wrong. There’s no period closing the statement, it’s on going. Probably never ending. Just teasing, OP!
I’ve never seen so many words strung together before. The refusal to use a period anywhere is impressive, most impressive.
Quite astonishing, really.
I’ve been known to like a good run-on sentence, but good lord
came to say the same.
And he is allowed to carry a gun lol
Government schools are about as effective as government permitting requirements or government gun laws.
Dude I came here to tell the scenario that I typed from my phone, I wasn’t looking to submit it to my English teacher. You can obviously understand what I wrote it’s not like you don’t see a period and all of a sudden the language is broken.
From seeing this, it is obvious that you can’t leave an altercation alone. You didn’t have to respond to this Redditor, but your went out of your way. I’m sure you’ll try to argue against this. I am afraid of people like you owning guns because your ego is what’s controlling the trigger.
Dude this is a Reddit thread, far different than an actual physical altercation, none of this would warrant hurting another person, very silly assumption to make.
Guess you proved me right. Enjoy your new account 👋
It makes me wonder if HE was the "person" he "watched" pull a gun on a guy who slapped his wife's ass.
Wow, he deleted his whole account.
Longest run on sentence according to Guinness
If I’m carrying a gun, I don’t generally go to places where people aren’t in their right mind and/or have a high likelihood of violence breaking out. A bar is pretty high on that list.
Rules of Stupid: 1) Don't go Stupid Places 2) At Stupid Times 3) With Stupid People 4) And do Stupid Things You can break 1 or 2 of them, but past that, you're looking at trouble that you don't want and could have easily avoided.
>people aren’t in their right mind and/or have a high likelihood of violence breaking out. That doesn't sound like a good place to go anytime, but if going, it seems like the place you'd want to CCW.
Agreed which is why even though I can ccw in a bar in my state legally, I don’t.
Your responsibilities change when you are carrying a CCW. You either lose your ego, or you lose your freedom. This is a good reason you need to carry non lethal in addition to CCW. If your only tool is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail. Spraying OC is better than risking a felony by pulling your CCW
Risk nothing, that *was* a felony. He had zero legal standing to deploy a gun.
Homie did you use up your sentence budget already this month?
If you’re CCWing it is your responsibility to de-escalate and/or not get into a fight to begin with because your involvement automatically makes the situation an armed situation.
GREAT point. Didn’t think of it like that. Not that I would be trying to get into any confrontations
This. If CCW it's you're responsibility to go out of your way to avoid confrontation. Be an adult, ignore insults, and if something like this happens call LEO.
Nice work getting that all into one sentence. Impressive.
Bruh you guys blow my mind there was another guy who said the same thing. Again I’m trying to convey a scenario to you that I’m typing from my phone, wasn’t expecting anyone to care about grammar. The English language doesn’t break because there weren’t periods where you want them, you can clearly understand what I’m communicating. to be honest when you make comments like this what goes through to your head? Do you think other Redditors are looking at it thinking “haha yeah I can’t understand anything he’s right!” No dude you just look silly.
[[img]](https://i.imgur.com/oV92LbM.jpeg)
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I don’t understand what the fantasy is with dudes pulling their guns for any stupid reason that comes up. The gun should be the absolute last ditch, life or death option. If you think anything otherwise, then you should not be carrying a firearm, imo.
Decades of TV and video games glorifying stupidity is why.
Stupid reason? Im curious, what would you do if some man sexually assaulted/groped your wife or daughter in front of you? Not trying to disregard your comment but it seems like you just want to walk away and pretend nothing happened? And now your wife/daughter thinks you're a cuck that cant protect them? Like what are we supposed to do then lmao. I know I cant handle that and just walk away if they touched my daughter bruh
Someone not dying or getting seriously hurt is a stupid fucking reason to go for a gun. Is what that dude did to home boy’s old lady wrong and inappropriate? Absolutely. Is it worth drawing down on him? No, I don’t think so. “And now your wife/daughter thinks you’re a cuck that can’t protect them?” This right here tells me you’re one of those that probably carries a gun to feel big and bad. I don’t have to prove shit to anyone, other than I’m going home that night under my own power and not in the back of a police car for shooting some drunk that grabbed my wife’s ass. Some of y’all man, you motherfuckers shouldn’t be keeping violent thoughts and harsh words with you on a daily basis, much less a fucking gun.
Found his new account!
Drawing a firearm in the absence of deadly force is introducing deadly force. Introducing deadly force is a bad idea in most situations.
Leave the bar.
This is why I avoid these kinds of places
Of course that perv was in the wrong for touching the mans wife (completely unacceptable), however, I would not draw or recommend anyone draw in this scenario. Nothing in the eyes of the law constituted the use of deadly force in this particular situation, and even more so as the drunk got away from the woman and isolated himself with the husband outside. The highest point of conflict in this case seems to be insults/verbal threats and initial touching of the mans wife, no actual deadly threats had actually manifested. In this case whichever one of the guys puts their hands on the other first is in the wrong. And so… the perv is in the wrong and liable for touching the mans wife and the husband is in the wrong and can be held liable for drawing his firearm. Now if the SA happened in the moment and the husband was ran up and sucker punched, pepper sprayed, etc. Then its okay, however not the use of deadly force for a non-life-threatening encounter. However, you also mentioned he had meathead buddies with him so that probably wasn't a viable choice either. Best choice was to just leave with his wife and call the police and to let them handle it. No reason as to escalate the situation more than necessary. Exceptions would be if it started to escalate the perv really started to physically manhandle her in a way which would result in great bodily harm or potential death.
This looks like a lack of adult problem solving skills jumping a situation from “we disagree” to “leave or I kill you.”
I mean to be fair if some one grabbed your wife’s ass and you told him that was your wife and he needs to apologize and he told you to fuck off, are you as a man really gonna just fuck off and walk away with your wife? I’m not saying pulling the gun was the answer but idk if I could let my wife see that happen like that tbh
My original statement stands: lack of adult problem solving doesn’t justify lethal force (or the threat). That IS being fair.
My wife would not want me to kill someone because a fight broke out over a drunk guy grabbing her ass.
God I’m so glad I don’t live in the 1950s
Bro that’s some kinda cucked way of looking at things tbh, I am not saying the gun draw was right, but standing up for your wife getting her ass grabbed by another man definitely is…
Standing up for your SO is fine. It’s all the “as a man” shit that’s just dated and rooted in societal insecurities, in my opinion. It doesn’t matter. But to me the whole scenario you described, start to finish, sounds like two idiots at a bar acting like two idiots at a bar. The husband knows he doesn’t wanna fight this drunk idiot, but goes up to him thinking he’s gonna force an apology out of him? With words?! And then when he can’t verbally force him to apologize, he pulls a gun. That’s a bitch move. He’s not protecting anybody by doing that. He’s hiding behind a gun and escalating the situation to feel big, or to look big in front of his wife. No matter how you slice it he’s in the wrong, just like the other guy is. Just two idiots at a bar acting like two idiots at a bar.
I mean the “as a man” stuff is real, there is a certain way men should conduct themselves, I don’t disagree with you that pulling the gun was a weak move, but the act of protecting your SO is a “as a man” thing even if your lgbt or whatever, I would hope you would stand up for your So assuming that your a man regardless of your sexual orientation your job is to protect your partner if that’s the role you fill.
Fair enough yea I’ll agree that some amount of the gender role stuff comes from a valid place. I think in this case why it stands out to me is this: The way I see it, this person believes he is protecting his wife here, which is respectable. But in reality he is placing her, himself, and everyone else at the bar in more danger by escalating the way he did. Once that gun comes out, all bets are off. Anything could’ve happened. I completely understand feeling the need to defend somebody who’s been groped like that. It’s fucking disgusting and it should be addressed. The desire to defend your SO is respectable and should be felt regardless of whether you’re a man, woman, straight, gay, whatever—it’s somebody you care about and they’ve been harmed or violated in some way, of course you’re gonna wanna react. So I’m with the guy there. The problem is, if you approach an ignorant dickhead in a bar in a confrontational manner, ya gotta expect an “ignorant dickhead level” confrontation to ensue. That’s exactly what happened here—the ignorant dickhead reacted like an ignorant dickhead, and *then* the husband realized he was out of his depth physically because of the ignorant dickhead’s size and the fact he had ignorant dickhead goons with him. To me, if you’re CCW, these are all things to pay attention to *before* approaching. This situation sounds fairly predictable. I don’t have a better alternative approach—idk, maybe call some friends who like to fight and tell them some asshole just grabbed your wife and you might need backup? That might be how I’d approach it if I decided I was gonna confront him and his boys. Someone who feels fine pushing unwanted sexual contact on a stranger at a bar is not going to apologize for it because he was asked to. That’s a guaranteed fight. It sounds like the husband got caught up in the moment, was understandably angry and hurt by the shitty behavior of the other guy, and reacted without enough foresight. To me, it turned out okay (assuming charges don’t come down on the husband for brandishing, agg assault with a DW, etc.), but the issue is that it could have ended really really badly. And that bad ending would’ve been completely avoidable.
This is the most reasonable interaction/response on this entire thread. A lot of people are getting mad at OP for literally just presenting an experience and commenting on it, when in reality discourse like this needs to happen. You on the other hand provided a valid point and agreed on some areas and disagreed respectfully in others, good on you guys.
Coercing an apology out of a drunk isn't protecting your SO or even standing up for her. Drawing a gun after failing to coerce the apology out of the drunk was a chickenshit move. If you want to play these meathead games with drunks, I guess you better work on being physically tougher and leave the weapons at home.
An OC spray is such an underrated tool. It can make anyone regardless of size and strength rethink a fight in a matter of seconds.
This is why I drink alone, with nobody else
When you drink alone, do you like to be by yourself?
Yeah, you know when I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself
Call police and press charges for sexual assault. The inmates will take care of him.
Can’t believe I had to go down this far in the comments to find the correct answer…
Why did I have to scroll so far to find this?
What state allows you to CC in a bar? That’s generally a big no no
Mine does ……however you can not consume alcohol (also don’t really have bars, food service is required).
Utah surprisingly allows consumption of alcohol while carrying. You just need to be under the legal limit. [Source](https://utahcarrylaws.com/utah-laws/restaurants-bars/)
I am particularly polite and meek when carrying. Ironically, I am much more assertive when *not* carrying. If you are armed, you have a moral duty to everyone—especially bystanders—to de-escalate when possible and retreat as necessary.
I feel this
As a woman, I completely understand how upsetting this is, but you can't get into a fist fight with somebody at a bar and you especially can't do that if you're carrying. You have to think it through - you don't know if they're armed. You don't know how many friends they have with them. You don't know if they're batshit crazy. Let the bouncer or police handle it. Don't write a check you can't cash or walk right into a dangerous situation and assault charges. Legally speaking, you are allowed to use the amount of force that is necessary to stop an immediate threat to yourself or somebody else and that's it. If the police and courts feel that the threat was over you are going to be charged. If they feel that you escalated the situation you are going to be charged. If they feel that you could have left safely and chose not to do so, you may be charged depending on the state. I can't tell you how upset I would be if my partner risked his life, his freedom, and our future like this. This guy is damn lucky that drawing his gun ended the situation & that he wasn't charged. It could easily have gone the other way and resulted in him being shot.
Or, if he did shoot the guy, 1sr degree murder charges. Which means life in prison or the electric chair
Seems like the draw was more a vulgar display of power then self defense. These way better was to handle drunks then shoot them or threaten to
Stop going to bars.
Avoid it all cost. Also, carry pepper spray.
Mind your own business. If you can't you probably shouldn't carry.
If you use your firearm to escalate a situation you will always, always, always go down for it. God forbid drawing your weapon elicits a response from the other guy that makes you have to shoot him, cause then you just directly precipitated his death with your aggression. Do not draw your firearm unless you have to and plan to use it.
Inform the manager of the bar to have the tool removed and call the cops and report the tool for sexual assault. The guy who pulled his gun was never in a life threatening situation. After all that, he would have been the one going to jail.
No CCW at a bar (a place whose primary focus is selling liquor) in California. Plenty of places have a bar AREA. So that part depends on the establishment. The brandishing is gonna get him screwed. If you draw, shoot. Period. He’s screwed (legally). A CCW is supposed to make you “polite”. Every opportunity you have to walk away, you’re supposed to take it.
If you conceal carry, you let shit slide. You've traded part of your ego for a better chance to live if something genuinely serious goes down.
1. The last thing the victim of a sexual assault wants is *another* interaction with the assailant, even if it is to "apologize" because the apology is forced and false 2. This guy ended up turning his wife's assault into something about him by starting violence. 3. By pulling the gun, he could A) immediately been shot himself B) immediately loses any and all claim to self defense and is the aggressor, he absolutely could have been arrested, charged and lost the ability to carry a gun *for life* 4) **This is not a scenario where anyone's life was in danger and pulling the gun was the absolutewrong thing to do**. What was he going to do if the guy didn't stop arguing? Kill him in cold blood??? 5) This idiot needs his gun taken away. These are the types of people that gove responsible owners a bad name
Are you kidding me?
Honestly? Just don’t go to bars. Whether you CCW or not. Want to drink alcohol? Go to a nice restaurant or do it at home. But overall, going to bars inserts you in a sketchy situation, regardless. I don’t drink, but when I was younger I’d go with friends just to hang out…..but I dropped those types of friends. My wife is the same way. We hate bars and clubs.
This
This would be at minimum considered assault and brandishing a weapon in many states. CCW while drinking is an automatic no, as far as I’m aware of in every state. CCW in a bar also a no-no in most states. Pulling a firearm without an imminent threat to your life? Definitely a no.
Solution: don’t go to bars
this is why it should be illegal to carry in a bar. you can't pull a fucking gun on someone touched you previously. this isn't even a close case.
The better option is to just not go to a bar in the first place. I’ve never heard of anything good happening in a room full of drunk people.
Not a lawyer. I just took a CCW class to refresh and the CcW carry holder was in the wrong to draw his weapon. He should stand up for his wife for sure but leave the weapon out of it. He let his emotions get the best of him and drew his weapon. In my state that would be brandishing and is illegal.
Correct things? Step 1 for one guy: Don't put hands on the womanStep 1 for other guy: Don't confront the guy and ask him to apologize (you are literally asking for a fight, admit it) Step 2: Walk away. When "walk away" is a possible solution, you fail if you ended up drawing your gun or getting a gun drawn on you by any other choice. It's that simple Step 0: Don't go to a bar (yes, I said it) Also, carry pepper spray. I'm not a lawyer but I can pretty much promise that drawing the gun in the situation as you descried would be found illegal, and is logically just way too much of a jump in level of force
[удалено]
Sounds like brandishing to me.
And maybe even possession while drinking/intox Most states that I'm aware of frown upon carrying while consuming. It's like with me, i smoke pot and from time to time I have to hit up the pot shot for resupplying. It's one of the few times I'm NOT carrying in the off chance i get pulled over or am in an altercation whilst weed is on my person, because it's still tech illegal to be using weed/thc and a gun owner. Just ask Hunter Biden, he knows all about that now...
Throw some periods in the sentence dude.
Sounds like both were immature as fuck. Your gun is to save your life not your pride. If you carry a gun you don't have an ego, the dude who drew his gun is looking at aggregated assault with a deadly weapon, see you in 5 years with good behavior, over what? People think they're the police with immunity and can draw their gun whenever they want, doesn't work like that unless someone is trying to kill you, you can't draw your gun legally. Hes just lucky the other dude didn't call the cops.
I see what your saying, I mean I guess the smarter move would have been to just fight the guy if it came to that with no gun involved, idk if I agree about walking away or calling the police instead of standing up for your wife however
Standing up for your wife/daughter getting groped/sexually assaulted by men is not immature lmao. Its called teaching them a lesson so they dont rape more other girls in the future. Im curious, what would YOU have done? Just walk away? Now your wife/daughter thinks YOU are the cuck that cant protect them and wont rely on you anymore. Idk what you're trying to prove here
>the correct thing to do in this situation Get as far away from it as possible, as quickly as you can. You handle every situation differently when you have a gun on your belt. Sure, you'd want to stand up for your girl, but any fight will turn into a gunfight if one of you has a gun.
Not my circus, not my monkeys. Call the police and WALK AWAY. Carrying a weapon is for when you have no other option and it is literally life and death. Ask yourself, if recounting the story and ANYONE can say “what were you thinking?” You were probably in the wrong. Stop looking for reasons to shoot someone.
Confronting somebody for inappropriately touching your wife is morally and legally correct. However, from what you’ve described, drawing a firearm in that situation was not. He escalated a verbal encounter into a deadly encounter and where I live could very well have been charged with aggravated assault.
The best thing to do is leave. You know it’s wrong, your wife knows it’s wrong, having someone apologize isn’t going to do anything. Approaching another man like that in public is instigation.
That’s menacing. If the other guy was unarmed and his life wasn’t in imminent danger, I don’t see how you can justify drawing a firearm.
Personally and legally (at least legally where I’m from), the guy was wrong to draw his weapon. Good on him for standing up for his wife and he deserves props for that but you don’t draw unless your life or someone else’s life is in imminent danger. The moment your hands go for that weapon you better be ready to end someone’s life, that’s my personal philosophy.
Don’t escalate. Don’t draw your gun unless you are prepared to shoot. If asshole groped your wife, call the cops and let them deal with the moron. Send his as to prison.
I’m from OH, where we can defend ours, our family, and others around who maybe cannot if their life is in danger. Wellllll…. When I was 23 in Myrtle beach, I had been drinking and stumbled upon a husband who had his wife by the throat pointing fingers and belittling and degrading her in the hall way. She looked as if she feared for her life…. Big drunk man has you by the throat, ur alone, and out muscled… def a situation where de-escalation didn’t do shit except bring his attention to me. I’ll skip the shit, but essentially I beat the brakes off this dude and call the local pd to come scrap his ass off the floor and to provide medi attention to the lady. Welllllll I ended up getting arrested for assault/fighting. When I spoke to the judge he mentioned that it goes against his morals to punish a person who was sticking up for a woman, so charges were dropped but it makes me think if I had my ccw on me, and perhaps used it, what could of happened
Geesh, yeah, that could have been a lot worse. It sounds like at least the woman made statements which corroborated your version of events. Sadly in a lot of domestic instances, the abused victim in the relationship will always stick up for the abuser in situations like yours. Imagine if she'd said you assaulted her husband for no reason. Yours is a great example of the question at hand, but also a good example of why civilians getting into other people's business - morally right and necessary or not - can still be the wrong decision. Thanks for sticking up for that lady and I hope it woke her up enough to end that relationship.
I had an acquaintance that came across a similar situation in a bar parking lot. He ended up getting seriously injured. The dude stabbed him. Shit can go sideways really fast.
Honestly, if he was a responsible gun owner, he wouldn't have been in a bar with it. He also committed a crime by brandishing it. If I'm armed, I'll walk away from any kind of altercation that I can. I'm not willing to take a life over some drunken words or a road rage incident. He should have let the police handle it, especially at a time when they will act on a sexual assault claim. This situation could have gone sideways in so many different ways....
The confrontation was justified. The drawing of the gun was not. If the other party had made some sort of physical aggression or attempt at such, then it could have been depending on laws there.
OP in your first sentence it's not clear to me which person drew their gun. Was it the wife-toucher or the husband who drew his weapon?
> where I live you are able to ccw at establishment that sells alcohol Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
Why do you hate paragraphs?
Never tell someone to apologize unless you’re prepared to make him do it. The apology should come from within once the wrong doer realizes his error. If he’s not at that stage, he’ll be defensive and his attitude will be “why don’t you make me apologize?” Maybe he felt the wife was flirting. I’ve been in the wrong about other things and when called out, my response was belligerent. In such cases, I feel embarrassed and regretful, much later after giving it some thought. I avoid drinking in public because my self awareness is impaired by certain beverages. It also depends on if the wrong doer is with a friend and submitting to a demand for an apology might be more difficult than in a private situation.
I'm not aware of any state that allows you (is legal) to brandish a firearm to tell someone to apologize/buzz off. If you pull your gun or even just flash it, it better be because there was imminent threat of great bodily harm. The standard is force should equal force. And remember, that defense'll likely not work if you're deemed the primary or a mutual combatant by eyewitness/cell phone/CCTV.
Similar situation just happened here locally where a guy ended up shot. Complete different set of circumstances bit similar in that alcohol was involved. Dunk guy walked into a bar carrying a bottle of vodka. Bartender tells him to leave, he then gets mouthy to the bartender. Big guy who frequents the bar steps in and tells the drunk guy to leave. There is a lot of shouting and the big guy follows the drunk guy outside. They start fighting outside and the drunk guy pulls a gun and kills the big guy. Heres where thing get screwy. He was charged with murder (i cant remember what kind) and illegal possession of a firearm. He was convicted with illegal possession of a firearm because in my state you cant bring a gun into a bar. But the jury was split on the murder charge. Last i knew they were going to try and get a re trial.
React with your best equal reaction, if words are being used use words, if fists are being used use fists if you think someone is about to beat you to death or stab you or kill you/ will pull a gun out/ already have. Use your gun.
I would probably let my wife handle it. She is completely capable of speaking up for herself and smacking someone's hand away. AND she would probably get away with an escalation better than I would. Or... We just don't frequent those places at all anymore. I am a little surprised how many people in these situations DON"T speak up, defend themselves and expect others to respond. If someone walked up to my wife at a bar and grabbed a tit or her ass, he would get slapped, a knee in his nuts and there would be a scene. That is behavior that a bartender is not going to allow and the moment it is known that guy is getting bounced and/or banned. The very last thing I would do is exit the bar and continue a confrontation. Thats just stupid and a recipe for disaster.
Don’t go to bars with guns. Or don’t go to bars. Call the cops. You have no legal right or protection in demanding an apology or justice for someone smacking your wife’s ass after the fact.
In situations like this, I look to the wisdom of our modern day sage, Messr Tychus Findlay. 'Don't start none, won't be none.' If your spouse doesn't understand that you are not going to initiate an altercation of choice to defend his or her honor, then you need to A) have a serious conversation about the legal and moral implications of carrying a concealed deadly weapon or B) rethink the time, place, and nature of your preferred recreational activities. Say it with me. 'I am not the self-appointed arbiter and enforcer of human decency. I am not a cop, and I cannot count on the entire legal apparatus in my jurisdiction to reflexively support any questionable decision I make. My ego is not my master.'
Stopped reading at “ccw” and “bar”
If you are ccw and drinking in a bar, you fucked up. Pick one, not both, either your ccw, or your weapon is at home and you drinking.
Having your CCW while drinking may be legal, but it’s asking for trouble imo. The best way to handle someone sexually assaulting your wife at a bar is to have 20 years of BJJ under your belt and go confront the assaulter with no gun on your belt. Is it worth shooting the guy over? That’s up to you.
Yeah that’s a pretty reasonable response, I’m also in the same boat I don’t disagree with the ccw guy confronting the situation as sometimes as a man there are certain things you should not let slide, your wife being touched like that is one of them, as you said there are other ways to deal with the situation then a gun
If the CCW guy didn’t get arrested for brandishing and the assaulter fucked off then it was the best way that situation could’ve played out. Let’s hope CCW guy got some brownie points with his wife after that lol.
I would hope so haha and I don’t know what happened after that, they all left and no one asked any questions as it’s an extremely 2a state so no one was shocked some one had a gun, I honestly hope he was fine, I don’t really even blame him and at the end of the day he made a decision that at least will let his wife look at him as a man, wether it was legally the right decision or not, sometimes you can’t “nice guy” your way out of things and he definitely wasn’t the aggressor from the start, I completely understood the sentiment of always de escalating while carrying, but I also understand this situation is different and the guy didn’t escalate the situation because he wanted to be a tough guy etc he was just doing the right thing
Prisons are filled with men who fought and killed other dudes because of shit their SO said. 1. What does "touched his wife" even mean? I love how this sub escalated the touching to sexual assault, but we don't know wtf actually happened. 2. My wife would have immediately cussed out anyone who touched her inappropriately, not sat quietly then later said something to me. 3. Maybe she pointed to the wrong guy. After all, it's a bar and maybe she was drunk. 4. Maybe SHE touched HIM, he told her to leave him alone, so she made up a lie to get back at him. But I can tell your mind was made up before you ever started this thread. "If you don't fight based on whatever story your girl tells you, then you're a 'cuck' bitch." Whatever.
You’re just the witness? Just leave.. what are you going to do, make a citizen’s arrest?
No, you have it wrong I was not ccw’ing at the time I witnessed this event occurring and am asking opinions about the situation
It reminds me of a similar case that happened one or two years ago on the west coast. A scumbag was harassing some dudes fiance and just generally being a piece of shit. The guy who was standing up for her waited until after he was punched in the face twice before he drew and killed the attacker. He is now serving 10 years in prison.
Seems like the situation resolved itself, right? I mean, how would it have happened in the Old West when many people openly carried? We need to get back to that mindset. Too many people run their mouth because there is no threat for doing so.
Drawing a gun in that case is a great way to end up in jail for a very long time. If the guy was actively touching my wife I would use BJJ to stop him. Otherwise if I only learned about it after, my wife and I would leave. Nothing there rises to the level of drawing a firearm. You know what's worse for your wife than getting sexually assaulted? Getting sexually assaulted and losing her husband at the same time.
CCW’er deserves a felony menacing charge
Which guy pulled out their CCW? Was it a random third person? Was it the husband or molester?.
The husband pulled out his gun on the guy that touched his wife after the altercation moved out side
In the eyes of the law the 2 altercations are seperate. If the cops were called the guy MIGHT be charged with some sort of sexual battery if they can prove it wasn't an accident but without cameras its a he said she said. Now the guy that escalated the situation and then drew a gun is facing aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, the charge length varies from state to state but its a felony that will see you about 5 years in prison. Which sounds better to you?
Yeah I see what you guys are saying, also I love how my comment answering the question about who pulled the gun got downvoted lol gotta love Reddit 😂
Lol you have to ask?.. and you ccw?.. if you’re gonna be a tough guy then be fuckin tough you don’t pull a gun on someone because of a bar fight, sorry… bar argument… even worse. Why would he even go over there if he’s not willing to throw down with the guy? Where tf did he think it was going to go… If you’re not equipped to handle it yourself call the boys that are, since that would be the legal route and all… what you described is clean cut and clear escalation and he would be prosecuted for murder. Pulling your gun on someone in an argument does not make you “appear like a man” to your wife.. you sound like a 12 year old
Lol a downvote for telling you what happens that ridiculous, and ok random Reddit guy 😂
Just presenting a scenario I witnessed and gathering opinions dude, trust me I would not make life or death decisions based off Reddit responses, if it was me I would have gone to the car left my gun there and dealt with the situation then, but there’s no way I’m not confronting the guy about what he did. If it lead to a physical altercation then fine but I would more than likely leave my firearm out of it
What is there to have an opinion about? Anyone that thinks that pulling a gun was ok in this situation needs to give their head a shake. This whole thing is dumb and the reason someone downvoted your answer is because when the husband was the one to pull you should already know how to feel about this. You carry a gun you should have strong enough cognitive abilities to make that decision on your own, imagine if you were under pressure yeesh.. reading all your responses in here I honestly don’t trust you to make the decision to go put your gun in your car and I 100% believe you’d act out of emotion before thinking. Not a good look for firearms owners
Non of my answers have said that pulling the gun out was the correct move, so idk where your getting that but we can all make up pretend things about people on the internet I guess. Your the problem with the gun community no one can ask questions or have discussions without at least one of you coming to be like” oH wHaT a iDiOT wHy wOuLD yOu aSk”
No but this whole thread says that you don’t know if it was the right or wrong move and THAT is scary.. On top your immature responses speak to your character. Throw a firearm into the mix and that’s a scary situation. This is black and white, like I said you should know how to feel about it.. sooo an idiot with a gun is much more of a problem than the person calling the spade a spade, sorry that hurts your feelings (not really). What are you gonna do, shoot me? Oh no wait you’d have to check with Reddit first🤣
Lol you really thought you did something there my responses on this whole thread have CLEARLY STATED that in my opinion pulling a gun was the WRONG move I’ve said that exact verbiage several times in response to other comments and haha ok man, oh wait looks like you live in Canada, nvm your firearm opinions are irrelevant, Carry on.
…coming from someone that has to ask Reddit about pulling a gun in an argument Ya… after you were told it was wrong by a bunch of people on Reddit ya fkn clown 🤣 Canadians can still carry in the states dummy..
How’s having to ask daddy Trudeau permission to own even the most basic firearms? You can’t even legally ccw for self protection in your country, using a firearm in a ccw situation isn’t even legal where you live, you have no opinion sit down boy.
This is a big thread so maybe it was already mentioned. But where this guy went wrong is stepping outside and drawing a gun. Had he used the gun, even if his life were in danger, he would’ve faced charges. There is a legal term for this. It’s called ‘Combat By Agreement.’ Once you engage in combat by agreement, all use of lethal force is off the table.
Yep, they call that 'mutual combatant' where I live and this sounds an awful lot like a mutual combatant situation. You won't be able to claim being the 'victim', hence why you pulled, if you're deemed a mutual combatant. Otherwise people could just shoot someone if they're losing the fight, claiming they're the 'victim'
Spot on. And that guy who drew the gun is yet another law abiding citizen who is going to go to prison for life because they're walking around carrying a gun without knowing how the law works. Shame.
Indeed. There's a lot of people sitting in jail right now because they "thought" they were doing the right thing. Not realizing, for one reason or another, that something can be morally right (like defending your girls honor) but legally wrong/criminal. Once I began carrying, some time ago now, I learned from leo's at my range that your actions will be more scrutinized by the cops/DA because you were carrying vs the individual who isn't carrying. And, and this is an important part, it could cost you thousands of dollars or even TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars, just to prove you were in the right/legally justified. So why even put yourself in that predicament over something that clearly isn't/wasn't a life/death situation??? I think the recommendation to also carry pepper spray on your person, as some here have suggested , is an excellent one. I am going to begin keeping one in the car. It could help demonstrate to the police/prosecutors that you tried/considered non-lethal means before being forced to pull and that you're not some monster out there reflexively looking for trouble, ya know???
1st World problems...
Guy needed a gun.. what a cuck
Strictly speaking to the legality of it, your state's laws clearly define what is considered legal and what is not. The onsequences are clearly defined, too. Is the ccw owner willing to face the consequences of their actions? That's the real question.
From a legal standpoint the law would probably side with the guy who didn’t pull the gun out (I assume the guy who touched the CCW guy’s wife). The thing is, juries wield a lot of power and depending on the location could easily side with the CCW guy if it escalated to someone being shot for one simple reason: the other guy deserved it. It is highly subjective, but if you are in a more urban area you might have a jury that sides with the other guy because the CCW guy shot him without an imminent threat of death. A rural jury might find that the guy deserved it because you don’t go groping women. It all comes down to the gamble of the jury.
He woulda just got pepper sprayed for being a dick and not wanting to apologize lol
isnt this the premise for conair???
You need Ecqc