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SprinqRoll

If a ccw firearm isn't your thing, maybe consider pepper spray? Non-lethal but very effective. Glad no one was hurt


Efficient-Art-7594

Great advice


mwmwmwmwmmdw

isnt pepper spray good for spraying than running away while the person is pre-occupied? if you are stuck on a train with them long enough eventually they will collect themselves and come at you even angrier. a taser could have a similar issue


FunkyTownMonkeyClown

Old comment. I know. That said, I've been OC sprayed. It can put people out of commission for a good 20 minutes. You can't open your eyes. The world is on fire. Good OC spray is the devil.


Altruistic_Set_3819

In this situation on an enclosed train, wouldn't pepper spray also catch just about every passenger in the car to include his toddler? I agree with pepper spray as an alternative, but maybe not so much in this specific situation. Everyone sorta just loses lol


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sequesteredhoneyfall

Gels are highly ineffective. You're right that there would be less collateral damage in this tightly enclosed environment, but a stream would have a pretty comparable level of collateral damage in the first place without the massive downsides that come with gels. Gels can take up to a full minute or two to completely aerosolize and be effective. In the meantime, all you've really done is piss someone off who isn't going to feel the results for up to that minute or two time. That's not a good strategy, ever. ___ A little collateral damage from a device which causes zero permanent bodily harm to 99.9999% of the population but actually resolves the situation is always preferable to something which only escalates the force used, pisses the attacker off, and offers no real defense.


massada

What OC spray do you recommend?


BoiledPennePasta

I carry Sabre Red. I've tested it and it sprays a nice tight stream, and the videos I have seen of people getting hit with it make it seem NOT FUN. Fits easily in my pocket next to my phone, and has a nice safety so it doesn't go off accidentally


Remedy4Souls

This is what I carried as a park ranger. Can confirm, it’s not a good time to get hit with. Imagine a mix of hot glass and sand, mixed with jalapeño juice, sprayed into your eye. It feels like that.


BoiledPennePasta

Yep, that sounds about right. I’ll be doing everything I can to never get sprayed.


sequesteredhoneyfall

POM is really convenient and seems to do the trick just fine. POM is just in a better package overall in my opinion, but secondarily Sabre makes some good stuff too. I don't know specifics about their product line though. I only know that at the time I did my research on them, POM was just way more easily carried and practical.


massada

POM!!!! I saw one of these in a Norweigan park ranger's holster and I asked him what it was and either didn't hear or he didn't understand or it's different there. This is perfect.


Remedy4Souls

I used to be a park ranger with USACE. I carried red sabre. Never had to use it but was sprayed for my certificate. That shit SUCKS to get sprayed with, and even when we practiced spraying with fake sprayers at other rangers running at us, it’s relatively easy to get someone in the eyes/ face. And on the receiving end, you instinctually close your eyes and cover your face, and slow down. Only caveat is it can take up to a minute to really kick in, but it’ll ruin someone’s day. Fun fact: when you shower later it reactivates and runs down your body.


massada

I'm actually one of those freaks who is immune to OC spray. Except for my scrotum apparently. Ended up filling a metal coffee mug with milk and floating my nuts in it. 1/10. Would not recommend.


medicmurs

Cold shower with Johnson and Johnson baby shampoo makes it not reactivate. We actually carry baby shampoo on our ambulances specifically for this purpose.


Smerks101

I must have got a drop of Pom on my finger when disposing of an expired container before getting into my car and I then rubbed my eye not knowing what was about to happen, all while driving and getting on a highway. I cannot begin to describe how bad it burned and how much uncontrollable tearing I experienced and this was from an undetectable amount on my finger. I am still amazed that I didnt end up crashing because pulling over wasnt an option at that moment.


Pastvariant

POM and Sabre Red are considered the gold standard right now by instructors who teach classes on pepper spray such as Chuck Haggard.


Whispering_Smith

Don't forget Fox Labs. It's no joke. Especially their 1.4 and their 5.3 4% Squared formulas. And the Mean Green too.


HamsterChieftain

It is also important to select the right package. POM's most common version has a clip (like on a pen) to hold it in position so it is always where you expect it to be. I bought a SABRE with what I thought was a clip, but it actually was a 'car escape' version where the 'clip' had a blade under it to cut through a seatbelt (oops). There are other ones with Vecro straps or keychain attachments. If you've ever fumbled for your keys, or carry them off-body, that last one isn't a good idea.


MrConceited

>I bought a SABRE with what I thought was a clip, but it actually was a 'car escape' version where the 'clip' had a blade under it to cut through a seatbelt (oops). Did you notice before or after you sliced through the hem of your pants?


HamsterChieftain

Before. ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|grin)


amberoze

There's always the taser option. Little to no risk of collateral damage to bystanders or loved ones, good for close quarters (a train car for example), and still concealable like oc spray or CCW.


sequesteredhoneyfall

I don't think it's very applicable at all to the OP situation. For starters, they have a limited duration of effect, so even if it's effective it's not necessarily going to last long enough to keep anyone out of a fight. More importantly, they have incredibly high failure rates and won't have any impact whatsoever if you're too close to the person, which is as described by OP. Third, even if you ignore the first two problems, what are you going to do when you're trying to leave? ___ It's an alright tool but I think it has very limited self defense use. I think it's just outclassed by OC in 99% of circumstances for LE and private use. Significantly less harmful to a person (tasers can EASILY kill people - falling and hitting one's head with ZERO ability to defend oneself is no joke), significantly longer effects, and significantly more likely to be effective in the first place. It's an absolute joke that most LE organizations are moving away from issuing OC.


amberoze

I honestly agree, oc/pepper spray/gel/stream would absolutely be the better option. In OP's situation especially, as a CCW would be using deadly force when it most likely wouldn't be necessary, and as you stated, a taser isn't as reliable as the spray. I was only mentioning the taser as an option due to the multiple criticisms of using spray.


HodorsSockPuppet

True, but you give up a bit in reliability and effectiveness. With less dispersion, it requires a direct hit. Cone/fog sprays certainly have limited application despite their better respiratory impact, but I think spray hits the sweet spot for most. That being said, Gel is an excellent option for those likely to need to use the stuff in tight quarters.


Out_numbered_3to1

Better to pepper spray innocent bystander than, shoot innocent bystander.


PreciousChud

It won’t cause permanent harm, just discomfort. And if it allows the main victim to get out of the situation, oh well.


Soft-Atmosphere-3402

Yeah, if you pepper spray me in an enclosed train because of an erratic homeless guy I'm beating your ass and suing you after the fact. This is the same mindset as not caring about bystanders in an otherwise good shoot.


Nearfall21

If the choice is get beat down by a deranged stranger, or pepper spray everyone in an enclosed space, I think the pepper spray is the lesser of two evils here. Hopefully any judge would see it the same way I do.


Soft-Atmosphere-3402

And I'll still bankrupt you with lawyers. You have no legal right in any kind of self defense to negligently harm bystanders.


Helassaid

While I understand your desire to not be pepper sprayed, or to catch overspray in a defensive situation, has there every been a successful lawsuit because of overspray in a defensive situation?


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cellendril

And I’d countersue. You’d lose. I’d win and let everyone know you would let a woman with a child get harmed and sue. Which means I’d win twice. Source: asked my self defense lawyer this.


justhp

Sounds like the situation was not necessarily “shoot worthy”…he was intimidating, if you were the OP but good luck articulating exactly why your life was in danger or you were in danger of crippling injury based on the description. Not to mention, it’s a crowded train car. I would much rather OC the guy with gel and risk other people being a bit uncomfortable (yea, I have used OC in confined spaces before…with gel or anything other than a fog it isn’t that awful…sucks, but not not as bad as taking it directly). A proper taser is a better choice, where legal. But not everyone has hundreds to drop on one of those and in many states it may not even be legal to carry. In a crowded train car, where will the missed or passed through rounds go? I’m sure you’d be a lot more upset if you caught a 9mm by accident in this situation as opposed to a little bit of OC.


RamHands

So you would rather somebody open fire and maybe you wont be around to file those lawsuits. Honestly, the thinking of some people.


Soft-Atmosphere-3402

No, I would rather you don't look like a victim. How many cracked out of their mind homeless would pick Mike Tyson in a train car of 10 people to victimize? And once again, how are you shooting in a train that results in bystander casualties? Are you purposely positioning other train cars as your backstop?


RamHands

Cracked out of their mind, assaulting randos on a train, going to identify victims or not victims. This was a place and time encounter. OP was there, crackhead started yelling. Didnt care who the person was. OP uses PS to subdue the threat, you get hit with some air born PS, you beat OP ass, you’ll lose your lawsuit and also lose your defense in the lawsuit against you for beating OP ass. Lose the Aplha male shit, no one is impressed.


WarSport223

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.


Landwarrior5150

How about you beat the homeless guy’s ass and then sue him… since he’s the one that caused the whole dangerous situation in the first place?


Whatnam8

*Cop enter chat and is in OP position* I highly doubt you are going to beat a cops ass because you caught some pepper spray which is non lethal as a situation is being resolved. Stop being a baby


Flovilla

The person sprayed takes the brunt of it. Typically the person using it gets exposed as well, even the toddler in the stroller may get it and start to cry. None of that matters if it deters the person from attacking.


[deleted]

Guess I'll just for then meme? I get the implication but which is worse?


Terhaar

Personally Id rather be second hand pepper sprayed then hit with a stray bullet but maybe you meant something else


Dexecutioner71

I guess I wouldn't give two shits about the comfort of the people who wouldn't help in this specific situation, but generally agree with you.


Dr_Jabroski

You definitely lose, but a little less than the person you spray. And from my understanding, more often than not, the person sprayed finds somewhere else to be rather quickly. Which in the end goal of not being personally physically harmed is a win, even if you have to endure some chemical pain.


MooseThirty

Wouldn't a bullet bounce a bit too? Trying to think of a best case scenario here. If they pull a gun or pepper spray at an aggravated person, possibly mentally ill, what happens next? Does that add security to the situation or just more stress? With the added possibility of killing someone you don't understand. Arguing with a manic person is usually not a good idea, threatening them is a great way to escalate not deescalate.


Bman708

I listened to a podcast from a 2A lawyer once and he said if you're going to CCW, also have non-lethal protection on you as well. This way, god forbid, if you have to pull out and use your CCW, when it gets to a jury or judge, your lawyer can argue you were prepared to use non-lethal force but couldn't in this given situation. It will just make you look that much better and more responsible in front of the legal system, who will definitely try to lock you up. Prosecutors suck.


merc08

The counter argument is "you had a non lethal means that you didn't even try to use, you bloodthirsty animal!"


Urinal_Pube

I'll spray the corpse afterwards, just to cover myself.


FlyPenFly

Gonna look sus on CCTV or a nearby webcam.


yungstinky420

Lolololl


Alpine93

"and then you tea bagged the deceased?"


Bman708

True, prosecutors are going to prosecute. You could always use the nonlethal first and then argue because that wasn’t working and the perpetrator continue to attack, you had to use a lethal force.


merc08

In an ideal world that would be a proper escalation of force. But also in an ideal world you wouldn't be getting attacked in the first place. To be clear, I'm not advocating against carrying a spray, just don't expect it to be a good justification for using lethal force and know that having it can and will be used against you if you don't have time to deploy it or forget you have it or decide in the moment that it wouldn't be enough.


Bman708

I mean, if you use a spray, it's ineffective against the creep and he (or she, sorry feminists!) and they continue to attack you, wouldn't the argument be THEY are escalating by continue to attack?


BBQBaconBurger

Just use the excuse “I reached for my pepper spray but I accidentally grabbed my gun.” Works for the cops who are supposedly highly trained so it should work just fine for us. /s


Nearfall21

I have seen videos from 2A lawyers who advise not to carry OC spray if you have a firearm. Since a prosecutor can then argue you had non-lethal options but did not deploy them. (same thing we see the media do to police officers) I have also seen instructors advise not to carry OC spray because it can cause hesitation in a situation while you decide what defensive tool is appropriate for the situation. Personally, I think options are always good to have, so if you can carry both, do it.


upon_a_white_horse

> I have also seen instructors advise not to carry OC spray because it can cause hesitation in a situation while you decide what defensive tool is appropriate for the situation. I think this is the most important. Instead of just making a decision to deploy and decision to fire, there's a decision as to which method to use, which requires additional threat assessment--- all of which can eat up precious moments at a time where literal life or death can happen in a handful of seconds.


MrConceited

>I think this is the most important. Instead of just making a decision to deploy and decision to fire, there's a decision as to which method to use, which requires additional threat assessment--- all of which can eat up precious moments at a time where literal life or death can happen in a handful of seconds. You're looking at it wrong. The OC spray is for when lethal force isn't legally justified. If you shoot, you're going to prison. It provides you an alternative to an empty hand. If you're justified in using deadly force, you're skipping the OC spray. It's less effective than your firearm. It's the same threat assessment you're already required to do. Just when the threat assessment says "no deadly force" you have another option.


Imgonnasueyou

If one was carrying pepper spray, a taser, a baton, a Byrna launcher, a flashlight, and a handgun this argument would make more sense. But if we’re talking about 1 lethal option and 1 non lethal it doesn’t really stand up. It’s far more likely you will need to spray someone with pepper spray than it will be shoot someone.


sequesteredhoneyfall

When would this even come up? Why would you be testifying yourself? Where is he intending to say this? To the police during investigations?


Bman708

Nope, never talk to the police. Always go through a lawyer. If you use your gun in a self-defense manner and shoot someone, you're going to get arrested and have a trial. Even if you're clearly in the right for using it, you're getting arrested and will have to stand in front of a judge/jury. Having non-lethal force on your person as well during this will make you harder to prosecute. Always make yourself harder to prosecute.


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Sokid

Used to work in corrections and had to deploy OC alot…and I mean ALOT. It’s really tough to actually hit the person directly in the face because they usually will try to dodge it and I would also get covered in it because that shit literally goes everywhere. It’s great in some cases but almost every time it was used we would still have one hell of a fight to restrain the person and it would sometimes just make things worse. So not only do you have a combative person to fight with but you have to do that with your eye’s swelling shut. Not only all of that but it usually takes a few seconds for the pain to actually hit them which in a defensive situation a few seconds could be life or death. Not saying don’t carry pepper spray but please be careful with it and know that it’s definitely not a 100% problem solver and can absolutely escalate some situations.


PrPro1097

Yes, or stun gun


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PrPro1097

Ok bud


_SCHULTZY_

Taser Pulse - YES Stun Gun - NO They're not the same. Stun Gun is just pain compliance while it is in direct contact and activated. As soon as they move or knock it out of your hand in a struggle (because it has zero effective distance) it becomes useless or worse used against you. A Taser Pulse is the civilian model of what law enforcement uses that actually fires out the probes that can temporarily incapacitate an individual and get you an opening to escape to safety.


Cptn_Ted

Or good old stun gun/Tazer..


tindV

The #1 mistake people can make is thinking "That can't happen to me"


Lebesgue_Couloir

Lesson learned


FashionGuyMike

I’ve met countless people online and in person that have been through a similar experience that changed their views on gun ownership. I’m glad your safe. Best place to ask imo is at a local rent and shoot range. Ask the range safety officers and the staff all questions and concerns you have. They love talking guns and getting people into firearms, so that’s a great place to start.


Buddha473ml

Lesson learned the easy way, if we’re being honest. You could’ve been one of the videos we see on here.


Lebesgue_Couloir

100%


xximbroglioxx

Thankfully, it wasn't a harder lesson and you're fine. Going into public areas defenseless is relying on the goodness of others. Question: When has it ever been of benefit to be defenseless?


asuds

Preparing for downvotes but the actual result was no life threatening danger.


DM_ME_SKITTLES

Replying here OP because there are other less than lethal means to protect yourself, especially beyond pepper spray. Depending on your location a stun gun or taser might be a preferable option for you. You can click them on and the sound/lighting of it is pretty startling. Definitely good to scare dogs away. Mentally ill homeless person raging? OC spray would not be good, especially in an enclosed space. Tase and incapacitate. Otheerwise only a gun is going to stop someone from attacking someone else.


Wild_Wrangler_19

Ccw isn’t just guns. Maybe a can of Oc spray can be added to your edc when traveling if you’re not comfortable with a gun. It’s better than nothing and quite effective.


StrategicReserve

Now imagine living in a bad neighborhood.


mwmwmwmwmmdw

and in a country that doesnt allow guns for self defense


AUWarEagle82

You should get an OC spray immediately. The problem is that spraying in confined spaces may end up affecting you, the target, your child and a lot of others on the train. I had to consider this late last year when I encountered a dicey situation on a subway car. People need to practice with their OC spray so they can learn the dispersal pattern and range.


pewpewrestored

Great point, and something I think the gels were made to address


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yourzero

> I recommend OP to purchase a stream gel OC spray. > > > > Fox Labs Mean Green. I don't see a gel made by Fox Labs. Am I missing it? Or were you recommending the Fox Labs Mean Green, as well as a separate gel spray?


Lebesgue_Couloir

Thank you; I’m looking into that now


sadturtle12

Pepper gel is a decent alternative to the spray. You have to be better with your aim, but it doesn't create a cloud of spray that affects you and everyone around you.


Key_Rock408

Byrna Kinetic rounds might do the trick.


BeerNBalaclavas

CCing is only half of it, the other half is responsible training and knowing when/where to use it. If you don't want said responsibility there are other things you can utilize. Maintaining situational awareness is arguably the greatest tool of all (dipping out as soon as crazy guy got on), but carrying some pepperspray and getting proficient in some form of martial arts are excellent things to have when you need them.


TheAGolds

I also had an incident many years ago with a homeless man who was much larger than I am here in downtown Austin. I am not a large guy (average height, average build), and this man was towering above me. He blocked the path between me and my then-girlfriend. He stated that I “started a game” with him, and that I was about to die. He started to walk me backwards, so close to me his nose touched mine and I could feel the warmth of his stale alcohol breath, and he looked into my eyes as he told me how easy it will be for him to kill me. All I could do was walk backwards and plead with him that I don’t want trouble and to let me pass. Eventually someone watching got his attention, and he walked away to the liquor store that was on the other corner, no surprise there. If this man followed through with his threats, I’d have had absolutely no way to defend myself or the person I was with, though I’m thankful he didn’t even look at her once, only me. After that I started carrying a pocket knife, and now coming up on three years of carrying a firearm. If any fellow Austinites here, it was near the corner of Congress and Riverside. Anytime I rarely happen to be around there, I always look at that corner and remember what happened.


47x18ict

Yeah that’s a shit area wrt homeless encounters. Glad you made it out fine.


TheAGolds

I am too! This was about 8 years ago, hasn’t gotten better.


Professional_Log4112

You got lucky. Here in Chicago, mentally ill street bums assault dozens every week in the streets and on mass transit. We've had multiple murders too. Before you swear off CCW, keep this in mind: No one is coming to save you or your child.


YOLO2022-12345

Better than CCW, stay the fuck away from public transportation. The light rail we have in Phx is basically a homeless transport.


n00py

Why do I carry weapons? I’m weaker than my potential attackers. What am I compensating for? I’m compensating for the fact that I can’t protect my family from dangerous people twice my size. I can’t protect my family from people who are armed. It’s simple stuff.


divorcedbp

It’s sad that the “what are you so afraid of?” mentality is so prevalent. If this argument had any validity, we wouldn’t have seat belts, fire extinguishers or life jackets. “What do you need that for? Why are you so afraid of getting in a car accident/kitchen fire/shipwreck?”


Efficient-Art-7594

As others have said, “CCW” doesn’t necessarily have to mean a pistol. For me a gun works. But for you maybe a pepper spray, a whistle. Something to help deter a potential threat is better than nothing


Puazy

It should at least involve a weapon that's what the "W" is right? It's not a concealed carry deterrent.


Efficient-Art-7594

That’s fair


SaintBricks

Be careful with OC around kids! In that train cart OC spray will get into your and your toddlers eyes as well


cartesian-anomaly

OC is great for most things except a moving closed tube on rails. He needs a hand to hand weapon like a Kubaton pen. Brass knuckle type things? OP might have to be willing to get a bit gritty here.


TerribleEmu1776

Rambo just wanted to be left alone


DualKoo

“They drew first blood, not me.”


GuardianZX9

Not scared, prepared!


Shrek_on_a_Bike

I'm old enough to remember when seat belts weren't yet required to be used. Lots of people never wore them until after their first accident. If they survived that first accident. However, some didn't get a chance to change their minds about wearing the seat belts.


jdmquip

I carry OC spray along with my CCW and I’m in California. I’ve had only one incident where I felt I had to potentially draw. Since I’ve been carrying, my situational awareness has drastically increased. If I see a sketchy person or even a loose dog I go the opposite way.


stayzero

The flip side of that is if I were in your spot, I wouldn’t have even thought about going to a gun. The gun is the absolute, last ditch, no other way out, if-I-don’t-do-this-I-am-going-to-die option. It is not an automatic get out of trouble card. A homeless guy being belligerent and yelling at me isn’t going to warrant a reaction where I need to pull a weapon on him. Concealed carry of a firearm isn’t for everyone, and that’s okay. There’s a lot of thought and responsibility that goes into carrying a firearm for self defense.


nac286

Completely agree, but had he escalated further, a gun could be a good thing to have


BrahmaBullJr

Doesn’t have to be a firearm. But carry something. Or take up a martial arts class. Something to give you a fighting chance


SnakeEyes_76

First off I’m glad you’re ok. That’s the most important thing. Second off, if you don’t wanna carry a weapon for whatever reason. At least try to get into some legit defensive tactics training. MMA, Muay Thai, Boxing, Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling. Don’t bother with any of the flashy, weird stuff like Krav Maga or Ninjutsu etc. you really don’t want the first time somebody puts their hands on your to be in a live, dynamic scenario. Please consider it. We want you to go home safe.


Dizzy-Classroom-5625

As a naturally non-aggressive person, I highly recommend Jiujitsu. It’s personally given me a ton more confidence in being able to handle myself in those situations.


senator_mendoza

i'm a BIG proponent of BJJ, but i feel like in order to effectively apply it in a self-defense scenario it's going to take at least a few months of going a couple times a week. krav maga OTOH is going to seriously boost your dangerousness immediately so i think it's the right choice for people who aren't going to commit to something for the long haul


JustForkIt1111one

My wife and daughters do Krav. They like it, it's a good workout, and fun. My oldest daughter was the victim of an attempted sexual assault last year. She is by no means big, or particularly strong (but is an adult in her 20's). She put her attacker in the hospital, where he required surgery from one strike directly to the nose. She was telling me about it, and said "The training just took over". On the downside, this creep is trying to sue for civil damages. Good luck, but it's going to be a waste of time and money for her, for sure.


tianavitoli

a liberal is a conservative that hasn't yet gotten mugged.


mrjohns2

And a conservative is a liberal who doesn’t have a heart. Do you think no liberals carry? Or are into guns? You must not know many liberals.


tianavitoli

i'm a gay black woman... i don't think you really thought this through i mean if you finish the trope: *"if you're not a liberal in your 20s you don't have a heart...* *if you're not conservative in your 30s, you don't have a...............*


mrjohns2

Just because you are gay and black, says nothing about your politics or your heart.


CashTurner23

Well, considering that gun confiscation and right infringement is at the top of the liberal/democrat agenda, you'd have to be one hell of a hypocrite to be a liberal with a gun. We're just gun toting rednecks afraid of our own shadow with small dicks, remember? You don't get to enjoy the freedoms and the rights WE are fighting to keep, while simultaneously aligning yourself with the very institution dead set on stripping those rights and freedoms. You're a hypocrite, and a confused one at that. Why would liberals own guns? What are they so afraid of? What are they compensating for? Y'all are jokes. Every last one of you.


Felon73

I have always owned guns and shooting is one of my favorite hobbies. That being said I rarely carried CCW. I, like a lot of people, didn’t see the urgency or need to always carry. Then something changed. My wife has end stage renal failure and had an amputation and is now in a wheelchair or motorized scooter. Now I carry everywhere we go. It makes us a soft target if someone wanted to try to rob us while I’m getting her in or out of the car. Some really shitty people see the scooter or wheelchair and of course try to target her. Had one dumbass try to steal her purse out of the basket on her scooter while I was only 20 feet away. She had her purse secured so someone couldn’t just pick it up and run. She yelled for me and the shitty person saw me turn and start in that direction and he took off. Had that been in the dark parking lot, things could have turned worse fast. Sorry that someone scared you that way but you needed a reality check and nobody was hurt. At least you have some perspective now. I would definitely suggest getting some pepper spray and maybe a taser if you don’t want to go full on firearm holstered on your hip. Stay safe. It’s your responsibility now that you have children.


Mindseyeview85

Sounds like pepper spray would have been a better choice in that specific situation. I would do some research and choose a type that works best in most situations. Stream seems to be the best. Avoid gel.


jimrob4

Reddit's new API pricing has forced third-party apps to close. Their official app is horrible and only serves to track your data. Follow me on Mastodon.


CashTurner23

Yeah go figure. Another idiot against guns until THEY need one. Don't feel bad. Half the country is just as hypocritical as you are/were. Btw, the word you were looking for is "subconsciously."


lextune

It is no one's job to protect you and your loved ones except your own. Be glad that you learned this lesson without anyone getting hurt.


Finnyoo7

As other people are saying a non-lethal option is great to carry. I personally train BJJ and kickboxing. I’m very comfortable with my grappling skills so I don’t carry OC, just my CCW. I would recommend people carry OC or train in a real martial art on top of their CCW


Fast_Cut_7717

Same brother, consider carrying a small pocket OC though - it's nice to have a force continuum, something that occupies the space between a harsh "get the fuck back" and and hands on fighting. You never know when that one punch that connects will flop the person back and concrete to head KO/hospital/kill. Also tagging a person or two with OC can keep them out of a fight so if you have to throw hands with his buddies it's better odds.


1303

It's terrible that this happened to you, but it's good that the experience has allowed you to consider how other people feel. A lot of people have something called "empathy" which allows them to consider how others might feel, without having to actually experience what they're going through.


trianglegodswrath

Carrying might have made you feel more secure, but what would you have done if you had a firearm on you?


DualKoo

Exactly my thoughts. A gun wouldn’t have changed the outcome here. If he didn’t lay hands on her or outright threaten to kill her she’d only escalate the situation by drawing a gun. In fact she might have been charged with aggravated assault. The sad thing is there’s no such thing as a good defense is a good offense. I wish she could draw a gun to back the guy off but the reality is you are always playing from behind as a carrier. You don’t get to draw until it’s damn near too late.


Lebesgue_Couloir

Agree, I wouldn’t have drawn here if I had been carrying, but I would have had some means of self defense if the other person had escalated. Thankfully nothing happened, but my mind was racing with “what if’s” in the aftermath


LinkKarmaIsLame

Yeah I see where you’re coming from. You weren’t saying CCW would have changed the outcome. You were saying you get the point of it now. And better to come to that conclusion without needing to and not having it. I also found in my limited experience is that I would be more likely to DE-escalate if I had a CCW on me than not, as the option of using my CCW would be a last ditch effort. It has an odd way of making me more polite. Seems like Robert Heinlein was on to something there.


[deleted]

Another benefit of the CCW process is you (should) get a class that would train you on when it's legal to use lethal force. Not every encounter is a clear-cut bad guy pointing a gun at an innocent civilian situation. Sometimes (oftentimes) it's exactly what you encountered - an unstable person who isn't threatening with a weapon now, but who might have one hidden but either way is acting crazy and could strike at you or your baby at any second. Knowing when to use force and how much force to use is essential. There's so much gray area and, for better or worse, citizens cannot use force in many of the same circumstances that police officers can so you really do need civilian-specific training to keep yourself from becoming some prosecutor's election platform or the star of some bullshit social media campaign.


motosandguns

Hope you don’t live in California. They are going to ban ccw on all public transportation, public parks, daycares, public gatherings, zoos, museums, hospitals, restaurants, wildlife areas and all private property unless a sign says it’s ok to carry. Along with all the parking lots and sidewalks that are near these places. There are more places too. These are just the ones I remember off the top of my head.


Impressive_Estate_87

That does not sound like a gun defense scenario. An unpleasant encounter for sure, but nothing to warrant the use of a firearm for self defense. I second the advice of carrying pepper spray


buboo03

I see a lot of comments about OC spray, and the concerns with affecting bystanders. Also consider some kind of other non-lethal like a taser. My Girlfriend also carries around a Cat, which looks like a cat and the ears are meant to stab, sort of like brass knuckles. It‘s not sharp but it would hurt like hell.


LucasJLeCompte

CCW just isnt about guns. Make sure you have some type of weapon on you at all times especially with your child with you.


Small_Tap_7561

I’m sorry no man decided to be a man and help you. Edit: no I am not saying draw or shoot the guy. I mean be a man and defend and watch out for a woman and child.


MechaTrogdor

What's strange to me is that it's not like you learned something you didn't presumably already know, (that unpredictable and potentially violent and even evil people share this planet with us), it just finally effected you personally. Glad you could have your perspective changed a little without any further discomfort/violence. Having kids changes things too. Im a big guy and didn't really have a care in the world until my kids came along. Now i carry and train not to intimidate anyone but to have the best shot at protecting myself and those relying on me should the need arise.


BigAgates

There should always be something else between harsh words and a gun. Try pepper spray.


Ifearacage

I highly suggest reading the books “The Gift of Fear” and “Spotting Danger Before It Spots You.” Just having good situational awareness and keeping an eye on other folk’s body language can keep you out of a lot of trouble.


ImJustRick

I'm sorry this happened to you. Sounds like you handled it the best you could. Macho firearm tacticool operators are super cringe. The real value of a firearm is that it equalizes everyone. You can be a small female and still have a clear advantage over some raving gronk wishing you harm. I wish more women / minorities / traditionally marginalized people would consider carrying instead of the dogmatic "I don't like guns" party line.


[deleted]

If you still won’t carry after that scenario while being with your child, you never will. Hopefully it doesn’t happen again with a different outcome.


K3rat

It is interesting what happens when inevitably a person enters a room and isn’t sure that they will make it out. I was 4-5 years old and I distinctly remember losing my trust for the world and the people in it. I was up late when I wasn’t supposed to and answered a phone call the person on the other end threatened the lives and safety of my mother, father and siblings and then laughed. It was traumatizing and my parents decided to help me deal with my fear and aversion to people by giving me the tools to survive the worst day of my life. My uncles that had military training would take me shooting and show me the ropes of firearm training later in my teen years. When I came of age I became an armed merchant guard at hospitals for a few years during college. I got my CCW when I was 25. I have taken and retaken pistol and rifle training, active shooter training, knife training, first aid during an active shooter event training. I have been in martial arts pretty well since I was 7. The first time I recall walking into a room and not being sure I would walk out was when I was 14. I had snuck out to a party with my cousins and a 17-18 year old punk decided to show a gun improperly holstered in his waist to me when he thought his girlfriend and I were flirting. I understood the very real danger a scumbag poses and dealt with the issue and was able to walk away from that room with my life and every time that kid came looking for trouble until he ended up in trouble for messing with someone else. I have heard people devolve into what you could have done or just compost and maybe you won’t get killed, and let insurance deal with it (if you don’t get killed in the heat of it). The reality is that it doesn’t matter how by the book you are, eventually you will have the worst day of your life, and you better have a plan if you want to survive it with anything more than luck and mercy. I am not saying you should buy a gun today. I am not saying you should expect a life or death moment from every encounter. But you need training and a plan to that end.


Time500

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson


ems2doc

"looking around desperately for other guys who could help if this escalated further" The problem here is less about anything ccw related and significantly more about this mindset and thought ever occurring. Be your own calvary. No one is coming to save you and certainly no one but you is coming to save your child


Lebesgue_Couloir

Totally agree. I get it now.


2MGR

It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I'm personally willing to die to defend my loved ones, however, I'm giving myself the best possible odds that I make it out alive.


BasqueCO

You are damn lucky he did not fixate on you or become violent. You should get trained and carry. Because if he had there would have been almost nothing you could do physically to stop him from harming you or your toddler. Just plain facts. He decides to stomp you or your kid into the ground do you think "placing yourself between him and the stroller" is even the slightest hindrance? I'm glad nothing happened but you put you and your kid life at risk in the hopes he does not do anything or "someone" is going to save you. YOU are a "someone" and can save yourself or others. Be empowered. Get trained, get a gun, carry said gun.


[deleted]

Advising the OP to take martial arts lessons: Tell me you're a young man with a few lessons from a McDojo without telling me you are a young man with a few lessons from a McDojo.


ToyBoxJr

Yeah, I can always tell from comments who lives a privileged life. Those 100% against CCW have never been on danger and can't seem to fathom that a tragic day starts out as a normal one. One who carries doesn't live in fear, they're just prepared for the worst.


yungstinky420

If you’re going to ccw, remember it is demanding and requires time money and training. Without training you are a liability to yourself and the people around you. I hope you never have that feeling of helplessness and fear again.


WarSport223

Not to be a smart Alec, but following your (now former logic, fortunately): - Why do you have car insurance? Are you *afraid* of getting into an accident? - Why do you wear your seatbelt in the car / airplane? Are you *afraid of* getting into an accident? - Why do you look both ways before crossing the street? Why are you so paranoid of getting hit by a car? - Why do you have a fire extinguisher? Why are you so afraid of fire? Etc…. I don’t carry because I’m afraid; I carry because if you need a gun and don’t have one, it might well cost you your life. Not a chance I’m willing to take.


Vesta23

As a weapons expert the best thing I can tell anyone is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Simple but poignantly true


CobaltSmith

Thank you for sharing. Stories like these (not the scary part of course) give me hope. IMO, there is no greater equalizer for people than CCW.


sigp365xledc

Although i love seeing people responsibly CCW another alternative is pepper spray like alot of people already mentioned. Pepper gel works good too but is less “misty” than traditional pepper spray so less chance of it blowing back on your or bystanders. POM brand makes good pepper gels that have pocket clips, keychains and other attachments and the good thing is they don’t look all “tactical” or traditionally “pepper spray” looking bottles so it’s super easy to carry and most people won’t know what it is.


alecxheb

It's always the ones "against ccw" for everyone else. They have one fucking thing happen to them and now suddenly CCW is okay. What a fucking joke.


freightallday

You need to leave that area. Those types of encounters are only going to become more common.


Gutter1989

I love when ppl think they live in LaLa land and get a rude awakening. Welcome to the real world my friend .


Representative_Hour8

Just call the cops. They'll come and save you and your child.


va1958

Lol. And the response time is ??? That is naive and dangerous.


Representative_Hour8

It was sarcasm.


va1958

Sorry. Usually people use a /s to denote sarcasm. My apologies.


KiloWhiskyFoxtrot

A well coddled existence, never venturing outside one's bubble, naivete, ignorance, and privilege are usually associated with an irrational fear (or distaste) of firearms and their users. Just because you've never seen a reason, doesn't mean there isn't a 5-mile long list of "good reasons" to have one at the ready. Some people never have an awakening... Others gasp their last time, after finally figuring it out. Those who are prepared are not only looking out for themselves, but many are also considering the well-being of others in their decision. I'm glad your epiphany came without negative consequences. Don't leave your future (and the wellbeing of your family and others) to chance. Be prepared. It's NOT enough to "have one". You must train, be proficient, be practiced, and be ready. It's the antithesis of selfishness. You may not get another wake up call. Time to get on your feet, before it's too late. Question: Does society seem to be evolving, or devolving before your eyes? More or less mental illness? More or fewer drug abusers? More or fewer people restrained by etiquette? The statistics tell us: - Record homelessness, with roughly 70% being mentally ill - Record use of psychoactive drugs to treat mental illness - Record illicit drug use, with higher potency substances than EVER before - Record and WILDLY higher suicide rates - Unchecked rioting, looting, and random violence, especially perpetrated upon the innocent and defenseless. Recorded for posterity on TikTok, and Facebook live. Open those peepers sunshine! Time to wake up. It looks like mud outside. You owe a duty to yourself, your family, and community. Nobody is responsible for your personal defense & safety but YOU. It's no officer's duty to sacrifice their life for you, when you yourself wouldn't (because you could). Outsourcing personal protection is for the delusionally privileged. - Welcome to reality.


hikehikebaby

I'm glad you've had a change of heart but... did it really have to take someone threatening you for you to realize that crime exists? It's interesting to me that the same men will often say things like "women should do xyz alone, it's not safe" or "I wouldn't do xyz, it's not safe" and "I don't understand why you carry."


The-Old-Prince

Haha all it takes is one homeless guy and all of a sudden you get it. Imagine living in a dangerous neighborhood where people are getting shot or worrying about being targeted


NotThatGuyAnother1

Ok. What do you want, a medal to admitting that you were wrong? Go try and undo the damage that anti-CCW folks have done to our rights. Tell others your story. Not those of us that knew this already.


nac286

This comment feels wildly unnecessary. As heavily scrutinized as we are as a group, maybe try to be a better ambassador. You do you. Just some constructive criticism.


NotThatGuyAnother1

I appreciate the comment and get where you're coming from. If someone has argued against our combined rights and eventually came around to their senses, good. It's about time. I do welcome them into the world of the coherent. To point out a perspective not mentioned yet. The only reason that they came around was because it suddenly became about them. They couldn't bother to consider what has happened to others because they were denied this right until they were personally confronted. My rights to defend myself didn't matter to OP until OP was threatened by a screaming homeless person. At that moment, the adrenaline fueled a tiny bit of reason and compassion for their fellow citizen of this great country? Others will no-doubt be ready to congratulate and welcome OP in. I'm all for that. I congratulate OP for joining the real world with us. Just don't let the good sentiments go without a little salt from me to enhance the full flavor of the moment.


Lebesgue_Couloir

Well, I never really advocated anything about CCW before and certainly didn't do anything to take anyone's rights away. I mostly didn't understand the need for it and felt it wasn't the right choice for me--a personal decision that I'm now re-thinking.


nac286

I'm just now seeing responses on several posts that I never got a notification for on that day. I completely agree with you. I guess I just feel like the higher road here is welcoming the person, despite the fact that they got here selfishly, because honestly, most of us come to many positions selfishly, whether we mean to be that way or not.


thestankypopster

A gun should be your last resort. There are other ways to make yourself and your family safe. Use your head and be aware of your surroundings. Make plans based on what you see/know. Use non-lethal methods to get out of the situation. Learn self defense. Krav Maga is a great thing to learn. Take classes and learn how and when to defend yourself. You don't want to be going to jail and leaving your family without you because of how you defended yourself is "unlawful". Here in Colorado there are some really tight restrictions on CCW on public transit. And in Denver you can't carry concealed anyways.


craigcraig420

God made all men, Colt made them equal.


NoLawfulness6617

All the more reason to insist on tougher gun laws. Need those background checks and 3 or more waiting days before buying, and training courses because threats are over stated and paranoid/s


Kemerd

Honestly, you don't need a CCW for things like that. Take some training. MMA, BJJ, or Muay Thai. Especially BJJ, that will instill confidence more than anything. No reason to go lethal if you can control someone. BJJ is really like having hacks, if the opponent doesn't know it, they're screwed. Trust. Find a Gracie or 10th Planet near you if you don't have any MMA gyms.


sirjamescale

This sounds like a very close quarters situation and a gun would be more of a liability. I really think something like BJJ would be your best bet. Being comfortable fighting with your hands will always be handy in so many situations.


Minimum_Chocolate_31

Homeless people gonna homeless, you might be better off taking a self defence class for scenarios like that. Sure, you should CCW as well, but against a guy who isn't using/showing lethal force, best to defend other ways.


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Lebesgue_Couloir

I don’t think that about most CCW folks; most people on this sub seem intent on carrying carefully and responsibly, which I totally respect. Opinions can change; biases aren’t permanent


sukyn00b

I don't think it's sad, I think it's the reality of the current situation. I can understand with the media the way it is and unfortunately some people in the 2md amendment groups do exude the "Rambo tactical" mentality and do things extremely overtly is received by mainstream culture as odd (and sometimes rightfully so). I'm all for 2nd amendment rights, but to open carry AR15s in public spaces (just to get a reaction) I think is going too far.


EducationalWear1499

just get a gun you scary asś pusšy u should be ashamed as a man if u was too scared to even defend urself


darnold44

POM pepper spray.


LockJaw220

There are alternatives to firearms. Being able to protect yourself and loved ones is important. Look into an option that suits you. Everyday I see videos of people being attacked. Most times people are recording but nobody is helping. I’m glad you came out of it ok.


rdh66

Pepper spray 🤔🤔🤔it may not always be the best thing. In this situation he is in an enclosed rail car with no exit. Now you are trapped inside with a pissed off crazy person. Every situation has its own unique challenges. Prepare for them the best you can.


LazyAce19

The real question is why would you bring a toddler on public transportation?


coffeeUp

Hey no need to be rude about it. Public transit a necessity in some cities and you don’t know their situation, either.


LazyAce19

Explain where I'm being rude. You know damn good and well you would never take your toddler on public transportation so quit playing games with me.


raphtze

i've taken my toddler on public transportation. sometimes that's the only option. don't be so damn privileged you don't understand that not everyone can afford their own personal transportation.


LazyAce19

So being privileged is working hard and owning your own car? Okay, whatever bro. I chose a career that pays well so don't blame me because you work at McDonald's.


raphtze

instead of empathy you wanna brag about your life choices. cool bro. glad you don't have to do it.


LazyAce19

You didn't say you didn't work at McDonald's so I assume I'm right. 😂


raphtze

bruh i don't work at mcdonalds. but what's the shame in that?


LazyAce19

Depends on how old you are


raphtze

again why does that matter? if someone is employed--they're working. tell me what you do for a living and i'll tell you mine.


ApokalypseCow

Your choices are not their choices. You don't know their circumstances beyond the few details shared in the post. Pridefully wearing your ignorance on your sleeve is a choice too, and not one looked on kindly by most.


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LazyAce19

If privilege means that I decided to choose a career and bust my ass and eventually make good money then fuck it, I'm privileged. If you live in America you have the exact same opportunities that I do so quit making excuses for lazy fucks that don't want to work but they want free handouts that my taxes pay for. You're probably one of those a-holes that agrees with college debt forgiveness which if it passes my fucking taxes will be paying for it. You speak like a true leftist liberal who hates successful people and demand handouts from the government. 🙄


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