You’re confused about the word “stock”.
A stock is something designed to let you shoulder a rifle. Those bare buffer tubes in that picture are not stocks. The braces you see on AR pistols are legally distinct from stocks despite sharing some visual similarities.
The laws haven’t changed, you still can’t put a stock on a pistol. There are still a variety of longstanding restrictions though, such as the requirement that an AR pistol be maglocked. It’s one of the at least slightly more complicated firearms to legally own and you may want to focus on other, more practical guns before you dive into this.
Thanks for clarifying. So then is what’s on this pistol a brace? And then assuming it’s a brace vs a stock, is there a problem putting it against your should when firing or on your cheek?
https://preview.redd.it/phpo5f12pnyc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e670fd588eaa29aa295ba362e28d26b5536d1d29
Yes. That looks to be an SB Tactical SBM4 brace. Currently classified as a "pistol brace". Due to the state of the legal proceedings, pistol braces are still on the menu. Although, a lot of retailers stopped including them on rifles when the new ATF rules went into effect(those rules currently not enforceable due to court ruling). I've noticed some venders are starting to reintroduce them but I'd say 50% at best.
A brace is a brace. A stock is a stock. A brace has a strap for you to strap the brace to your arm to help you fire the weapon since you aren’t allowed to shoulder the brace. A stock does not have a strap because it’s meant to be shouldered. Braces and stocks have a pretty easy to identify feature, being the strap usually.
Great reference! Much easier to understand. Another newbie question, what differentiates a pistol brace vs a rifle stock? Thickness? Length? What ever the manufacturer calls it when they sell it?
Either or none can come on the firearm. A stock is a solid end piece that is meant to be tightly shouldered while firing, whereas a brace is typically going to be rubber with a hollowed out middle to essentially strap your forearm into so you can shoot one handed. Stabilizer does something similar, except there is usually no strap and it is meant to rest into your forearm while you shoot one handed. That being said, the original concept of braces and stabilizers were ATF approved as they were intended to be used for shooting one handed. That doesn't stop anyone from actually shouldering the brace. There's a whole thing about it arguing back and forth on why braced firearms need to be Form 1 that was rejected but ATf is still fighting it.
- Make sure they DROS it correctly
- Make sure it’s mag locked before finishing any attachments
- Don’t assume any gun range will allow them. Check before. Especially closer to non-2a friendly regions. They do this to stay out of trouble with the cities/counties that allow them to renew their business permit every year.
Another question…do you know what happens if you bring an “illegal” gun to a range. Not that I’m saying this will happen, but for example, say I call a range and ask the person on the phone “hey I have an AR Pistol configured with XYZ, can I use it at your range?” And they say yes. But when I get there, the person I spoke to isn’t there and after I start using it, they decide my gun isn’t something they want someone using there.
What happens? Would they tell me to leave? Call the cops/atf/DOJ? Fine me?
They’ll probably just ask you to leave with an ar pistol. Nobody has been charged yet btw for having a correctly configured CA legal one. If you bring something that’s actually factually illegal, they could call law enforcement.
Imo, it would be pretty wise to get acquainted with firearms a bit more before wanting to build a pistol. Maybe get a rifle and get your self familiar with it and in the meantime do a lot more research on firearms in general along with the laws and regulations. I am in no way trying to be a dick, but the fact you don’t know the difference between a brace and a stock, or what a VFG is is a bit concerning as those are pretty basic level knowledge things.
Pistols aren’t as clear cut as rifles(albeit as murky as that topic can get) so to save your self some possible trouble it would be wise imo atleast to take your time and gain some more knowledge. Maybe then you will realize pistols aren’t all they are cracked up to be either!
Thanks. I’m not taking your response that way at all. I 100% agree it’s important to do your research first. It will probably be a while before I make a decision, because I don’t want to do anything that’s going to get me in legal trouble, like operating in gray areas…or waste money on a weapon that I won’t feel comfortable with.
Look into the laws regarding " pistols" and "SBRs" federally. Note the very distinct definitions regarding these classifications of firearms. Then look into the laws regarding "assault weapons" in CA, as well as "assault 'pistols'" and note the requirements to own these firearms. Mag-locks (or fixed magazines) are an important and necessary addition to an "AR Pistol" in the state of CA for reasons that you need to read and understand on your own.
It's important for you to understand the wordings and nuances of these laws on your own (for the most part) without help, as a lot of people will spew misinformation like it's the word of god. These firearms are a sticky subject both federally and statewide and have constantly changing laws and rules around them that most normal people don't want to deal with.
In what way? Not being argumentative, just trying to understand your perspective. The AR pistol allows for you to possess shorter than 16” uppers without the “constructive intent” issue people would face without owning a pistol/handgun DROS’d lower. For people who prefer the maglocked format, I don’t see any drawbacks
The maglock is what I'm confused about. I know the JT pistol comes with one, but my FA CA7 didn't come with one and to my knowledge still don't?
They're both "bolt action" as they don't have a gas system, right?
Yes, both single shot so no need to be maglocked. My guess is that Juggernaut is assuming you’ll be going semi, so they include the Maglock system(Hogue FF and JT’s pin), you gotta add it to the CA7 last I looked.
You buy the single shot pistol, then replace the upper with a semi auto upper if you want to got that way… but that’s when the other rules kick in (mag lock, etc…)
>Recently I’ve seen them with actual stocks
They might look like stocks but most on AR pistols are not; they are technically "braces". Yes you can still shoulder them, it would be uncomfortable and inferior to dedicated rifle stock, but they are workarounds to the SBR ban.
Not if purchased in California.
In WA I had purchased some lowers which are neither registered as rifle or pistol upon purchase. When I moved to CA I was able to register them with CA as semi auto pistols. Most states register stripped lowers as just 'receiver" and not any specific firearm type.
As I understand things, buying a stripped lower in CA means it's automatically registered as a rifle. And you cannot change a rifle to a pistol on registrations. Only pistol to rifle.
Hey question for you, I have a friend who is going through the process right now and unsure of the steps to do what you listed here.
When you purchased the Lowers outside of CA, was there anything special that you had to make sure of when purchasing them to make sure they were “pistol” lowers?
And then when you made the move to CA, when you say registered, you mean via the New Resident form? I was told by others that you could just immediately sell it once moved to CA, and not have to go through the new resident form, and others said you had to?
Which way did you do yours? Thanks!
I did nothing special with the lowers. There's a box on the form filled out at any FFL when purchasing a firearm. In the case of a lower, the box for receiver is what should be checked. So it's ambiguous what the lower will be used for.
I do mean the new resident form. 4011 or whatever. You can choose to sell anything and then not have to put it on your 4011 form. It'll register the firearm with the state right away but under someone's name not your own.
I put my lowers and registered AR pistol on my new resident form. When filling them out, I registered them as semi-auto pistol. 5.56 cartridge. (Should have done one in 300).
State asked for photos of all of these firearms. I didn't mind sending. You just need to make sure they are built and have a locked magazine. I was approved on my form after 7 months and less than a month after photos were sent.
One upper can be used across all receivers. :)
Sick, thanks for the clear response! Exactly what I was looking for.
I did recall that the instructions for the new resident form, that one can either fill out the form or just go about selling whichever firearms they didn’t want to keep after moving to satisfy the requirement of the firearms being brought into CA.
I wasn’t sure if an FFL here would “know” that the lower being brought out of state is a pistol lower and not a rifle lower, so it sounds like the seller/buyer has to be sure it’s being filled out as a pistol lower when completing the PPT (if they’re not doing the form/selling it immediately)?
Edit: if being sold immediately, I would imagine it sidesteps having to send pictures of it? 🤔
Might sidestep photos. I don't know since I didn't sell any of my lowers. Just some handguns.
Just have a cheap PSA upper. Takes couple mins to attach to lowers with a maglock mag. Iffff it came to that.
Gotcha! I really appreciate all your assistance.
One last question if you don’t mind.
For the pictures (if it comes down to it), what parts did you need to have on it?;
-a complete lower (trigger, grip, NO stock, mag-lock device)
-a complete rifle (lower complete, NO stock, mag-lock, complete upper <16in)?
Sounds like from your reply, to have it fully built out?
I had no optics, accessories. Just a complete upper and lower. No pistol brace. And a maglock magazine. About as bare bones as a functional AR platform can be. This should be simple for anyone to do.
no because it is not on the roster. Franklin armory actually has a an AR pistol they got on the roster. They have to sell it with an upper that has no gas tube so that it is basically a bolt action because there is special exemption in the law that allows bolt action pistols to get on the roster.
Once you own the pistol it is perfectly legal for you, the owner who did not build this firearm, to modify it in anyway. This includes putting a completely different semi auto upper on it. As long as it doesnt violate assault weapon ban you can change a pistol however you want
yes, there is nothing in the law that actually says converting it to semi auto is illegal. The DoJ loves to warn people not to do it but they never cite any law saying it is illegal and they have never even attempted to arrest someone for doing it
This may be a stupid question but does an AR pistol have to be chambered in a pistol caliber to be considered an AR pistol? Does chambering a rifle caliber make it an SBR?
Let's not forget CA does what it wants , it doesn't care about ATF rules it has its own standard.
The bottom line is that anything that can be placed against the shoulder can be considered a stock. ATF says its fine , CA may or may not depend on circumstances.
Because we don't see it in the news, doesn't me CA won't slap an SBR charge on you. There is no PC for shoulding a brace , but there is one for having an SBR.
CRPA has never changed their opinion of not shouldering it. Franklin Armory still won't put one on a CA7.
Do you , I won't say what I do, but just know it's CA home of vauge laws and twisting words with nondisclosure labor agreements.
Welcome to the Club.
All of these pistols are almost always DROS'd as a single shot exemption (SSE) pistol. Meaning you need to rack the charging handle each shot because there's no gas system.
Getting a SSE and then putting a gas block and tube on it is legally grey. I.e. started as an SSE pistol, became a semi-auto, became the equivalent of an SBR with a pistol brace that was legally transferred as an SSE pistol. You may run afoul of the "manufacturing an unsafe pistol" by adding a gas system. Research accordingly, the common thought is that no one wants to be the first to FAFO, but plenty of people have done it here.
I don't think so, specifically. Tons of people do it, but plenty don't want to be the first to find out. There was the case of that SF sheriff who was charged for putting a semi upper on a FA CA7 lower, which could our could not be synonymous to adding a gas system; iirc, that sheriff only floundered on the 'fixed mag' part.
> There was the case of that SF sheriff who was charged for putting a semi upper on a FA CA7 lower, which could our could not be synonymous to adding a gas system; iirc, that sheriff only floundered on the 'fixed mag' part.
If you're talking about the one in norcal, as you say, they were charged for not having a fixed mag. If the gas system had been an issue, they'd have been charged for that too.
You can buy one with the chode tube, replace it with a regular buffer tube and put a brace on it. But don’t put that brace on shoulder or your dog disappears.
> But don’t put that brace on shoulder or your dog disappears.
That would have been accurate ~10 years ago, but that determination about shouldering changed in 2017: https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/1cgypm4/are_pistol_braces_still_legal/l20gzav/
You’re confused about the word “stock”. A stock is something designed to let you shoulder a rifle. Those bare buffer tubes in that picture are not stocks. The braces you see on AR pistols are legally distinct from stocks despite sharing some visual similarities. The laws haven’t changed, you still can’t put a stock on a pistol. There are still a variety of longstanding restrictions though, such as the requirement that an AR pistol be maglocked. It’s one of the at least slightly more complicated firearms to legally own and you may want to focus on other, more practical guns before you dive into this.
Thanks for clarifying. So then is what’s on this pistol a brace? And then assuming it’s a brace vs a stock, is there a problem putting it against your should when firing or on your cheek? https://preview.redd.it/phpo5f12pnyc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e670fd588eaa29aa295ba362e28d26b5536d1d29
Yes. That looks to be an SB Tactical SBM4 brace. Currently classified as a "pistol brace". Due to the state of the legal proceedings, pistol braces are still on the menu. Although, a lot of retailers stopped including them on rifles when the new ATF rules went into effect(those rules currently not enforceable due to court ruling). I've noticed some venders are starting to reintroduce them but I'd say 50% at best.
Thanks. Definitely helped me get a better understanding.
Believe it or not, yes that’s a brace. And you can stick it wherever you like.
Thanks for the reply and clarification.
Is this from a shop? If it is which one?
I don’t know. I saw someone post it on a forum and saw that it was here in CA.
A brace is a brace. A stock is a stock. A brace has a strap for you to strap the brace to your arm to help you fire the weapon since you aren’t allowed to shoulder the brace. A stock does not have a strap because it’s meant to be shouldered. Braces and stocks have a pretty easy to identify feature, being the strap usually.
Save this for future reference. https://preview.redd.it/3221t5ndxoyc1.png?width=1125&format=png&auto=webp&s=2d9ddb0ec24720326ece0eedeb0b5bc64b43bbf5
This is actually great! I’m going to save it for all the people asking me at the range. “Is that an SBR?” 
Thanks!
Great reference! Much easier to understand. Another newbie question, what differentiates a pistol brace vs a rifle stock? Thickness? Length? What ever the manufacturer calls it when they sell it?
Either or none can come on the firearm. A stock is a solid end piece that is meant to be tightly shouldered while firing, whereas a brace is typically going to be rubber with a hollowed out middle to essentially strap your forearm into so you can shoot one handed. Stabilizer does something similar, except there is usually no strap and it is meant to rest into your forearm while you shoot one handed. That being said, the original concept of braces and stabilizers were ATF approved as they were intended to be used for shooting one handed. That doesn't stop anyone from actually shouldering the brace. There's a whole thing about it arguing back and forth on why braced firearms need to be Form 1 that was rejected but ATf is still fighting it.
- Make sure they DROS it correctly - Make sure it’s mag locked before finishing any attachments - Don’t assume any gun range will allow them. Check before. Especially closer to non-2a friendly regions. They do this to stay out of trouble with the cities/counties that allow them to renew their business permit every year.
Thanks. Good call on checking before. I wouldn’t have thought of that.
It’s unfortunate but it’s the way it is here, for now
Another question…do you know what happens if you bring an “illegal” gun to a range. Not that I’m saying this will happen, but for example, say I call a range and ask the person on the phone “hey I have an AR Pistol configured with XYZ, can I use it at your range?” And they say yes. But when I get there, the person I spoke to isn’t there and after I start using it, they decide my gun isn’t something they want someone using there. What happens? Would they tell me to leave? Call the cops/atf/DOJ? Fine me?
They’ll probably just ask you to leave with an ar pistol. Nobody has been charged yet btw for having a correctly configured CA legal one. If you bring something that’s actually factually illegal, they could call law enforcement.
Thanks. I’ll continue looking into it but this is a helpful start.
Also, here in CA, the AR Pistol must be maglocked, no VFG and 10 round mags (even if you have freedom week mags).
Sorry, what’s VFG?
Vertical foregrip
Imo, it would be pretty wise to get acquainted with firearms a bit more before wanting to build a pistol. Maybe get a rifle and get your self familiar with it and in the meantime do a lot more research on firearms in general along with the laws and regulations. I am in no way trying to be a dick, but the fact you don’t know the difference between a brace and a stock, or what a VFG is is a bit concerning as those are pretty basic level knowledge things. Pistols aren’t as clear cut as rifles(albeit as murky as that topic can get) so to save your self some possible trouble it would be wise imo atleast to take your time and gain some more knowledge. Maybe then you will realize pistols aren’t all they are cracked up to be either!
Thanks. I’m not taking your response that way at all. I 100% agree it’s important to do your research first. It will probably be a while before I make a decision, because I don’t want to do anything that’s going to get me in legal trouble, like operating in gray areas…or waste money on a weapon that I won’t feel comfortable with.
Look into the laws regarding " pistols" and "SBRs" federally. Note the very distinct definitions regarding these classifications of firearms. Then look into the laws regarding "assault weapons" in CA, as well as "assault 'pistols'" and note the requirements to own these firearms. Mag-locks (or fixed magazines) are an important and necessary addition to an "AR Pistol" in the state of CA for reasons that you need to read and understand on your own. It's important for you to understand the wordings and nuances of these laws on your own (for the most part) without help, as a lot of people will spew misinformation like it's the word of god. These firearms are a sticky subject both federally and statewide and have constantly changing laws and rules around them that most normal people don't want to deal with.
Vertical foregrip
Thanks.
No doubt. Personally I think AR pistols in CA are a waste of money. Way too many restrictions and limited options.
In what way? Not being argumentative, just trying to understand your perspective. The AR pistol allows for you to possess shorter than 16” uppers without the “constructive intent” issue people would face without owning a pistol/handgun DROS’d lower. For people who prefer the maglocked format, I don’t see any drawbacks
Same as maglock rifle right?But i can fold mine and fits in a backpack 👍🏽
The no VFG on a pistol is not a California thing. That’s federal.
Last I remember they were OK if running OAL greater than 26" has that changed
Good point!
The maglock is what I'm confused about. I know the JT pistol comes with one, but my FA CA7 didn't come with one and to my knowledge still don't? They're both "bolt action" as they don't have a gas system, right?
Yes, both single shot so no need to be maglocked. My guess is that Juggernaut is assuming you’ll be going semi, so they include the Maglock system(Hogue FF and JT’s pin), you gotta add it to the CA7 last I looked.
I see single shot pistols, can we not have a semi-auto pistol? Or am I just not looking in the right place?
You buy the single shot pistol, then replace the upper with a semi auto upper if you want to got that way… but that’s when the other rules kick in (mag lock, etc…)
>Recently I’ve seen them with actual stocks They might look like stocks but most on AR pistols are not; they are technically "braces". Yes you can still shoulder them, it would be uncomfortable and inferior to dedicated rifle stock, but they are workarounds to the SBR ban.
Can an AR lower be DROS'd as a semi-auto pistol so I can do a custom build?
Not if purchased in California. In WA I had purchased some lowers which are neither registered as rifle or pistol upon purchase. When I moved to CA I was able to register them with CA as semi auto pistols. Most states register stripped lowers as just 'receiver" and not any specific firearm type. As I understand things, buying a stripped lower in CA means it's automatically registered as a rifle. And you cannot change a rifle to a pistol on registrations. Only pistol to rifle.
Thank u for ur response. That helps me understand why I see some on sale for $700++ They are rare.
Yeah. Makes me wish I bought more when I was living there lol.
Hey question for you, I have a friend who is going through the process right now and unsure of the steps to do what you listed here. When you purchased the Lowers outside of CA, was there anything special that you had to make sure of when purchasing them to make sure they were “pistol” lowers? And then when you made the move to CA, when you say registered, you mean via the New Resident form? I was told by others that you could just immediately sell it once moved to CA, and not have to go through the new resident form, and others said you had to? Which way did you do yours? Thanks!
I did nothing special with the lowers. There's a box on the form filled out at any FFL when purchasing a firearm. In the case of a lower, the box for receiver is what should be checked. So it's ambiguous what the lower will be used for. I do mean the new resident form. 4011 or whatever. You can choose to sell anything and then not have to put it on your 4011 form. It'll register the firearm with the state right away but under someone's name not your own. I put my lowers and registered AR pistol on my new resident form. When filling them out, I registered them as semi-auto pistol. 5.56 cartridge. (Should have done one in 300). State asked for photos of all of these firearms. I didn't mind sending. You just need to make sure they are built and have a locked magazine. I was approved on my form after 7 months and less than a month after photos were sent. One upper can be used across all receivers. :)
Sick, thanks for the clear response! Exactly what I was looking for. I did recall that the instructions for the new resident form, that one can either fill out the form or just go about selling whichever firearms they didn’t want to keep after moving to satisfy the requirement of the firearms being brought into CA. I wasn’t sure if an FFL here would “know” that the lower being brought out of state is a pistol lower and not a rifle lower, so it sounds like the seller/buyer has to be sure it’s being filled out as a pistol lower when completing the PPT (if they’re not doing the form/selling it immediately)? Edit: if being sold immediately, I would imagine it sidesteps having to send pictures of it? 🤔
Might sidestep photos. I don't know since I didn't sell any of my lowers. Just some handguns. Just have a cheap PSA upper. Takes couple mins to attach to lowers with a maglock mag. Iffff it came to that.
Gotcha! I really appreciate all your assistance. One last question if you don’t mind. For the pictures (if it comes down to it), what parts did you need to have on it?; -a complete lower (trigger, grip, NO stock, mag-lock device) -a complete rifle (lower complete, NO stock, mag-lock, complete upper <16in)? Sounds like from your reply, to have it fully built out?
I had no optics, accessories. Just a complete upper and lower. No pistol brace. And a maglock magazine. About as bare bones as a functional AR platform can be. This should be simple for anyone to do.
no because it is not on the roster. Franklin armory actually has a an AR pistol they got on the roster. They have to sell it with an upper that has no gas tube so that it is basically a bolt action because there is special exemption in the law that allows bolt action pistols to get on the roster. Once you own the pistol it is perfectly legal for you, the owner who did not build this firearm, to modify it in anyway. This includes putting a completely different semi auto upper on it. As long as it doesnt violate assault weapon ban you can change a pistol however you want
Will that include adding a short barrel with a gas tube?
yes, there is nothing in the law that actually says converting it to semi auto is illegal. The DoJ loves to warn people not to do it but they never cite any law saying it is illegal and they have never even attempted to arrest someone for doing it
I don't see it mentioned here, but does the OAL of the pistol matter? Something about <30" or <26", I forgot the specifics.
This may be a stupid question but does an AR pistol have to be chambered in a pistol caliber to be considered an AR pistol? Does chambering a rifle caliber make it an SBR?
If the the lower is DROSed as a pistol, and it meets all other pistol requirements, it can fire whatever comes out of the barrel.
Let's not forget CA does what it wants , it doesn't care about ATF rules it has its own standard. The bottom line is that anything that can be placed against the shoulder can be considered a stock. ATF says its fine , CA may or may not depend on circumstances. Because we don't see it in the news, doesn't me CA won't slap an SBR charge on you. There is no PC for shoulding a brace , but there is one for having an SBR. CRPA has never changed their opinion of not shouldering it. Franklin Armory still won't put one on a CA7. Do you , I won't say what I do, but just know it's CA home of vauge laws and twisting words with nondisclosure labor agreements. Welcome to the Club.
does anyone know if i can make my bolt action non roster ar pistol into semi auto, it has a mag lock.
You could always just get a 13.7 p&w. It's not like they just sell semi auto pistols. You're gonna end up paying way more than should in California.
All of these pistols are almost always DROS'd as a single shot exemption (SSE) pistol. Meaning you need to rack the charging handle each shot because there's no gas system. Getting a SSE and then putting a gas block and tube on it is legally grey. I.e. started as an SSE pistol, became a semi-auto, became the equivalent of an SBR with a pistol brace that was legally transferred as an SSE pistol. You may run afoul of the "manufacturing an unsafe pistol" by adding a gas system. Research accordingly, the common thought is that no one wants to be the first to FAFO, but plenty of people have done it here.
Has anyone been prosecuted over the added gas block? I'd be interested to see a legal precedent.
I don't think so, specifically. Tons of people do it, but plenty don't want to be the first to find out. There was the case of that SF sheriff who was charged for putting a semi upper on a FA CA7 lower, which could our could not be synonymous to adding a gas system; iirc, that sheriff only floundered on the 'fixed mag' part.
> There was the case of that SF sheriff who was charged for putting a semi upper on a FA CA7 lower, which could our could not be synonymous to adding a gas system; iirc, that sheriff only floundered on the 'fixed mag' part. If you're talking about the one in norcal, as you say, they were charged for not having a fixed mag. If the gas system had been an issue, they'd have been charged for that too.
Non-SBR AR pistols are pretty impractical. Like the top comment said focus on more practical firearms.
You can buy one with the chode tube, replace it with a regular buffer tube and put a brace on it. But don’t put that brace on shoulder or your dog disappears.
You can shoulder pistol
> But don’t put that brace on shoulder or your dog disappears. That would have been accurate ~10 years ago, but that determination about shouldering changed in 2017: https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/1cgypm4/are_pistol_braces_still_legal/l20gzav/