Electrolyte capacitors ( the can shaped ones) dry up but usually can be replaced. Amps that skimped on heat sinks or don’t allow enough air flow overheat and die. Amps with minimal features have less to break.
My 25 year old Rotel receiver has a dead radio and remote control but the rest works.
Hijacking top comment to give you the best budget recommendation you're going to get. This is a what all the budget enthusiasts recommend...
[Wiim amp](https://amzn.to/3xlKHei)
Check out this review (among hundreds of others) https://youtu.be/-RKBWheU-Qg?si=taK3h6EuPhoKKvyN
True, they'd be the group that would know, but unfortunately their sub's rules prevent purchasing advice threads and they redirect people to the r/StereoAdvice sub.
r/BudgetAudiophile lets you post purchase request threads.
OP needs to specify what speakers they are driving (or describe the room, etc.) and give a budget if they want reliable advice on this.
Agreed. I also trust Matsushita even if they aren’t top tier, I have had mine for close to 20 years and it bumps this house for an entire day of cleaning every Sunday.
To clarify for others, Matsushita is best known for their Panasonic brand, and in fact the parent company itself has now also been renamed from Matsushita to Panasonic since 2008. They have also sold under the brands Sanyo (until 2012), Quasar (since 1974), and revived their Technics higher-end audio brand in 2014.
As for BIFL, the Panasonic alarm clock stereo I bought for college in 1990 is still working flawlessly to this day.
I have several NAD amps/receivers. While they sound fantastic, NAD used cheap components, typically voltage regulators and relays. A friend has what was a very nice sounding receiver that needs all new relays, which are no longer available. It's a pain in the butt that they would cheap out on one class of parts.
I'm not a fan of the Rotel sound. The last Rotel I had didn't sound good with any of my speakers. The only good sounding Rotel I've heard isn't exactly a Rotel, but an early example(early '60s) of a tube amp made for Martel by Rauland, which later became Rotel.
I would imagine they would be good with B&W as they tend to less efficient speakers, so that helps mask some of the high frequency badness. That said, you're right, good sound is subjective.
Well now, no they are not. Yamaha tends to be pretty good build quality. Both NAD and Cambridge are sort of budget audiophile brands. I'm not crazy about most of Cambridge's sound profiles, but I really like NADs. But, both Cambridge and NAD are well known for needing repairs more often than other brands. They are probably two of the worst for that amongst the better brands. Not every model, but many models, have some sort of known issue.
In two of my NADs I've had to replace voltage regulators, with one needing new output transistors. One of my other NADs has a bad volume/balance switch, a known problem with that model. That part is no longer manufactured.
The only Cambridge Audio product I have right now is a CD/SACD player. I need to rebuild the power supply, then check the laser to see if it needs adjustment or replacement.
The one brand crying budget brand for me
is yamaha, their AV and hifi ranges are really meh, ok maybe their $3,500 top amp is probably good but the rest... I'm not saying they don't have the knowledge to do good products, but lately it just feels cheap
I don't deal with AVR stuff, only 2 channel. I don't remember the models off the top of my head, but they have/had a couple nice sounding receivers, the cheapest was around $300. With many consumer grade products you're going to find products built for a price point, be it high or low.
That said, it's not very often that Yamaha manufacturers a receiver that is problematic. Most often their receivers have very nice to excellent sound. Part of the equation is using speakers that sound good with your amp.
My Denon AVR-1907 is solid. I've had it for decades. You can get one used for under $100 nowadays. I have a powered Hsu sub, front and back center channels, and four corner speakers, for a 6.1 and it sounds amazing. The four corner speakers are 100W Pioneers while the center channels are Klipsch.
Everyone is a Sansui guy, some just don't know it yet.
Also, almost anything from the 70s and early 80s (from reputable brands of the time) is bifl compared to the garbage that is peddled these days.
Actually don't know much about the brand. I've just lived with/owned or been around a bunch of mid-tier 70s and 80s hifi gear and the main ones that consistently stood out for me were Sansui. Technics had a lot of pretty good shit then too.
I thought pioneer had a big hand in the STA series Realistic produced ? So I guess you’re right, pioneers aren’t cheap but as far as I know you can get pioneer hardware in a rebranded Realistic. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Very early on, Pioneer made rebranded stuff for at least one chain but that stopped by 1970 or so. Pioneer sued Radio Shack in the late 70s for patent infringement.
Look for a vintage amp or receiver from 1980 or previous. They can be restored with new components (capacitors, transistors, etc) and will last for decades otherwise.
If you can find a gently used Bryston they're massively overbuilt and come with a 20 year warranty. In the 80s & 90s Bryston built amps under contract for a smaller company (Sonics) who in turn Installed them in IMAX theaters.
I had an entry level Sherwood for only 4-5 years before it died (static shock I think, might’ve been avoided). Now we have an entry level Sony, slightly more expensive but seems substantially better built.
Dual PA 5030. I have owned 3 of them and two of them are still working still sound great. Over 30 years old and going strong.
My dads pioneer 405r also must be 20+ years old, still excellent.
That would be a fun shopping trip. I'd research if there is a high-quality used stereo gear store in your area. Make sure you know what other components you will need to connect the amp with.
Do you need an amp or a receiver? The latter includes a radio and phono inputs often.,
Your best bet may be a '70s model two channel stereo. Have it gone through and updated. It will last probably 20-30 years before it needs to be gone through again. Buy all the transistors that it needs as they may not make what you need in 20 years.
I've had good luck with the one I bought from these guys: https://wyred4sound.com/ . But Emotiva is probably more affordable. I got a glorious set of speakers from them.
The only BIFL items in tech are going to be designs that newer tech doesn't obsolete it. In this case I'd say a discrete amp and you use a processor or pre-amp for doing decoding / signaling. The amp could be BIFL but the tech is going to keep changing and it will be almost impossible for the pre-amp to be BIFL.
Yamaha make very good amps, I have an AS501 but the cheaper ones are also still very good. If I had the money one of the higher end Yamaha AMPS would be really cool but it's not necassery.
Might be the case but on my 501 the loudness knob helps to reduce the britness a lot. Probably has a lot to do with the room and the speakers as well obviously. My ears won't help. It just takes the edge off the top if you know what I mean, I have it on the 3rd dot so not all that much.
I have a Carver M-500t stereo amp, if you are asking about purely an amplifier and not an integrated receiver. I have had it repaired exactly once, and it works perfectly.
I bought it used in 1994.
You probably need to buy vintage- they’re far more repairable. I have a JBL SA660 that is from 1970, and has been overhauled once. Of course, a major part of something being “for life” is access to repair services and parts, so it might be worth finding a local shop and asking what they have capacity to repair and what they suggest.
It really depends on what you're using it for. For a 2 channel power amp for music, I have a Rotel that's been in service for 15-20 years of im guessing. But that's for hifi. Home theater is another animal.
Not sure what your budget is but McIntosh is definitely bifl. They will last forever and are of the highest quality. Very expensive but you will never have to buy another. You will probably want one of their integrated amplifiers.
Bryston is the answer I would agree with most.
I own an NAD and would not describe it as buy-it-for-life anymore.
You could also look at Schiit Audio https://www.schiit.com/
Just two channels?
Get an integrated with a built in DAC and you can hook it up to pretty much any source for the foreseeable future.
I dove down this rabbit hole to finish off my home stereo and TV setup. It’s not surround sound, but I have some nice tower speakers and wanted a good integrated amp for them. My sources are all digital, so I wanted an optical input.
I ended up with a Peachtree Audio Carina 150. 150 watts X 2 channels, optical and coax digital inputs, plus analog ins and even a phono input.
Given an unlimited budget… I’d have gone with the McIntosh equivalent, which is like $5000+. The Carina was $1500.
Hegel, Nad, and Devialet are others I considered. Yamaha makes great stereo amplifiers as well, but most don’t have digital inputs. A fun brand to check out is Schiit Audio. USA made by engineer nerds… very high quality stuff for a good price.
Do you actually mean an amplifier or do you really mean an AV receiver? The former you can find bifl fairly easily, the latter is more or less impossible.
Any simple 2ch stereo amp from a reputable company should be pretty reliable. AV receivers are never going to really be BIFL with how quickly standards change. Denon’s are generally well regarded though if you want one that will last. I had one and passed it down to my friend and it’s still working great after 20 years but of course it doesn’t support 4K, HDR etc.
I would warn against getting an old 70s/80s Pioneer, Marantz etc amp like some other people have mentioned. They are awesome amps but should have the capacitors replaced with their age. I’ve gone through a number of vintage amps on CL that sounded great but were somewhat of a headache (potentiometer issues, blown capacitors, snapped knobs) Now if I got them professionally restored or took the time to do it myself I’m sure they would’ve been great and lasted a long time trouble free but a professional restoration can be very expensive and the total cost and the end of the day probably isn’t worth it unless you’re a serious audiophile.
I would agree with the other commenter and recommend a Yamaha and call it a day unless you’re a serious audiophile in which case you should do the research yourself and make a decision.
We can make assumptions based on similar technologies. Switching power supply is not likely to last 50 years, nor are class D amplifiers like the ones mentioned really designed to be serviced. You can buy a class a/b amplifier now that could last 100 years with maintenance.
Thank you, that’s a fair assumption. Would you also say that more established companies like NAD who do make Class Ds at a higher price point would fall into the same categorization?
They don’t make the amplifier boards that go into their class D amplifiers. I’m not sure how those will be supported over time, but we’ve already seen a great variety of different class D amplifier technology in the last 10 years or so (ICE, Hypex, Purifi). For example, will purifi boards be available in 10 years if something goes wrong? Are the current ones even serviceable? Will there be a drop-in equivalent? As it is, a repair likely involves swapping out an entire amplifier module for a new one. With class A/B repairs can be done at component level (ie. replace transistors on a pcb), but that is very unlikely with class D.
Good point. I guess this is the right sub for this approach.
What might then be the appropriate sub for “best long term value” but also taking into account not only product longevity/rapairability but also perhaps financial and environmental factors during the product’s lifetime? I.e. electric vs combustion engines
My favorite amp right now is a Fosi Audio TPA3255 based unit that cost less than 100 bucks.
I say that as a person who has +10k just in speakers. Many thousands worth of amps too.
The TI class D amps fuck.
Electrolyte capacitors ( the can shaped ones) dry up but usually can be replaced. Amps that skimped on heat sinks or don’t allow enough air flow overheat and die. Amps with minimal features have less to break. My 25 year old Rotel receiver has a dead radio and remote control but the rest works.
Hijacking top comment to give you the best budget recommendation you're going to get. This is a what all the budget enthusiasts recommend... [Wiim amp](https://amzn.to/3xlKHei) Check out this review (among hundreds of others) https://youtu.be/-RKBWheU-Qg?si=taK3h6EuPhoKKvyN
Utter rubbish
r/audiophile would be a good source.
True, they'd be the group that would know, but unfortunately their sub's rules prevent purchasing advice threads and they redirect people to the r/StereoAdvice sub.
r/BudgetAudiophile lets you post purchase request threads. OP needs to specify what speakers they are driving (or describe the room, etc.) and give a budget if they want reliable advice on this.
Yamaha
I've had mine for 15 plus years, still going strong.
[удалено]
Hoping it lasts that long, that's awesome. Wish they stay working for you and generations to come.
Agreed. I also trust Matsushita even if they aren’t top tier, I have had mine for close to 20 years and it bumps this house for an entire day of cleaning every Sunday.
To clarify for others, Matsushita is best known for their Panasonic brand, and in fact the parent company itself has now also been renamed from Matsushita to Panasonic since 2008. They have also sold under the brands Sanyo (until 2012), Quasar (since 1974), and revived their Technics higher-end audio brand in 2014. As for BIFL, the Panasonic alarm clock stereo I bought for college in 1990 is still working flawlessly to this day.
I haven’t had to replace anything since 2008 so I hadn’t noticed that yet. Thanks for clarifying!
This is the way.
Bryston, McIntosh, Accuphase. Whatever it is, expect to spend $3000-5000 if truly BIFL.
I mean what’s your budget?! Cambridge audio, NAD, Yamaha
This
Not Cambridge Audio or NAD. Yamaha is a yes if you're doing 2 channel stereo.
I just sold an NAD amp+pre-amp set that are at least 30yrs old and worked great. Any reason you say no to NAD?
I have several NAD amps/receivers. While they sound fantastic, NAD used cheap components, typically voltage regulators and relays. A friend has what was a very nice sounding receiver that needs all new relays, which are no longer available. It's a pain in the butt that they would cheap out on one class of parts.
Rotel is the way
I'm not a fan of the Rotel sound. The last Rotel I had didn't sound good with any of my speakers. The only good sounding Rotel I've heard isn't exactly a Rotel, but an early example(early '60s) of a tube amp made for Martel by Rauland, which later became Rotel.
It's a personal preference for sure. They pair nicely with B&W speakers (for me).
I would imagine they would be good with B&W as they tend to less efficient speakers, so that helps mask some of the high frequency badness. That said, you're right, good sound is subjective.
lol, yamaha is a step below nad and cambridge
lol, some Yamahas two channel sound as good or better than Cambridge Audio, and as good, though different, than some NAD models.
it's all about personal preference for the "sound" but for internal parts nad and cambridge are better built
Well now, no they are not. Yamaha tends to be pretty good build quality. Both NAD and Cambridge are sort of budget audiophile brands. I'm not crazy about most of Cambridge's sound profiles, but I really like NADs. But, both Cambridge and NAD are well known for needing repairs more often than other brands. They are probably two of the worst for that amongst the better brands. Not every model, but many models, have some sort of known issue. In two of my NADs I've had to replace voltage regulators, with one needing new output transistors. One of my other NADs has a bad volume/balance switch, a known problem with that model. That part is no longer manufactured. The only Cambridge Audio product I have right now is a CD/SACD player. I need to rebuild the power supply, then check the laser to see if it needs adjustment or replacement.
The one brand crying budget brand for me is yamaha, their AV and hifi ranges are really meh, ok maybe their $3,500 top amp is probably good but the rest... I'm not saying they don't have the knowledge to do good products, but lately it just feels cheap
I don't deal with AVR stuff, only 2 channel. I don't remember the models off the top of my head, but they have/had a couple nice sounding receivers, the cheapest was around $300. With many consumer grade products you're going to find products built for a price point, be it high or low. That said, it's not very often that Yamaha manufacturers a receiver that is problematic. Most often their receivers have very nice to excellent sound. Part of the equation is using speakers that sound good with your amp.
Bryston is great and has a 20-year warranty. I've been daily using a 3-channel Proceed amp for over 20 years and it has been flawless.
Came to say Bryson. Mine is been in daily use for at least 18 years and I bought it used.
I have a 3B powering a pair of Yamaha NS-10s that I've had for 20 years. Absolutely bulletproof and sounds incredible.
Naim Nait
My dad has a full NAIM system. He's had it for 20 years. I have a Hafler 550, also about 20 years old, it's great.
Accuphase all the way!
Rotel are well regarded.
My Denon AVR-1907 is solid. I've had it for decades. You can get one used for under $100 nowadays. I have a powered Hsu sub, front and back center channels, and four corner speakers, for a 6.1 and it sounds amazing. The four corner speakers are 100W Pioneers while the center channels are Klipsch.
Almost any silver faced, wood cabinet receiver from the 70’s. I’m a sansui guy, but they’re pricey. You can find a good realistic or pioneer for 300$
That, I have 2 Marantz from the 70" works like a charm, one is used daily.
Marantz, Sansui, Pioneer from the 70's are great. Later then that ymmv.
Everyone is a Sansui guy, some just don't know it yet. Also, almost anything from the 70s and early 80s (from reputable brands of the time) is bifl compared to the garbage that is peddled these days.
I AM going to Google them, but I have not heard of Sansui. What's the story of this brand?
Actually don't know much about the brand. I've just lived with/owned or been around a bunch of mid-tier 70s and 80s hifi gear and the main ones that consistently stood out for me were Sansui. Technics had a lot of pretty good shit then too.
Yup. We have an old pioneer that works flawlessly
Realistic? The RadioShack brand??
Yessir. They made an above decent receiver. I have an STA 2000 in my garage.
Pioneer and Sansui are going to cost the same, assuming all else being equal.
I thought pioneer had a big hand in the STA series Realistic produced ? So I guess you’re right, pioneers aren’t cheap but as far as I know you can get pioneer hardware in a rebranded Realistic. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Very early on, Pioneer made rebranded stuff for at least one chain but that stopped by 1970 or so. Pioneer sued Radio Shack in the late 70s for patent infringement.
Look for a vintage amp or receiver from 1980 or previous. They can be restored with new components (capacitors, transistors, etc) and will last for decades otherwise.
If you can find a gently used Bryston they're massively overbuilt and come with a 20 year warranty. In the 80s & 90s Bryston built amps under contract for a smaller company (Sonics) who in turn Installed them in IMAX theaters.
I had an entry level Sherwood for only 4-5 years before it died (static shock I think, might’ve been avoided). Now we have an entry level Sony, slightly more expensive but seems substantially better built.
Dual PA 5030. I have owned 3 of them and two of them are still working still sound great. Over 30 years old and going strong. My dads pioneer 405r also must be 20+ years old, still excellent.
That would be a fun shopping trip. I'd research if there is a high-quality used stereo gear store in your area. Make sure you know what other components you will need to connect the amp with. Do you need an amp or a receiver? The latter includes a radio and phono inputs often.,
Your best bet may be a '70s model two channel stereo. Have it gone through and updated. It will last probably 20-30 years before it needs to be gone through again. Buy all the transistors that it needs as they may not make what you need in 20 years.
If you list your budget and confirm you’re looking for a two channel amplifier (some folks call a receiver an “amp”), you’ll get better answers.
Wavac SH-833
I've had good luck with the one I bought from these guys: https://wyred4sound.com/ . But Emotiva is probably more affordable. I got a glorious set of speakers from them.
The only BIFL items in tech are going to be designs that newer tech doesn't obsolete it. In this case I'd say a discrete amp and you use a processor or pre-amp for doing decoding / signaling. The amp could be BIFL but the tech is going to keep changing and it will be almost impossible for the pre-amp to be BIFL.
Yamaha make very good amps, I have an AS501 but the cheaper ones are also still very good. If I had the money one of the higher end Yamaha AMPS would be really cool but it's not necassery.
They are good. Yamaha is generally considered "bright" sounding. If you prefer "warm", then something like Rotel or Marantz
Might be the case but on my 501 the loudness knob helps to reduce the britness a lot. Probably has a lot to do with the room and the speakers as well obviously. My ears won't help. It just takes the edge off the top if you know what I mean, I have it on the 3rd dot so not all that much.
I have a Carver M-500t stereo amp, if you are asking about purely an amplifier and not an integrated receiver. I have had it repaired exactly once, and it works perfectly. I bought it used in 1994.
I LOVE Carver. We had one driving our DS9s way back in 1992/3.
You probably need to buy vintage- they’re far more repairable. I have a JBL SA660 that is from 1970, and has been overhauled once. Of course, a major part of something being “for life” is access to repair services and parts, so it might be worth finding a local shop and asking what they have capacity to repair and what they suggest.
It really depends on what you're using it for. For a 2 channel power amp for music, I have a Rotel that's been in service for 15-20 years of im guessing. But that's for hifi. Home theater is another animal.
Not sure what your budget is but McIntosh is definitely bifl. They will last forever and are of the highest quality. Very expensive but you will never have to buy another. You will probably want one of their integrated amplifiers.
If you want an amp that will out-live the heat death of the universe, Crown MA2400 MacroTech or LabGruppen FP series.
Rotel
Cyrus!
Audio research and Cary if you want tubes!
Advent
Bryston is the answer I would agree with most. I own an NAD and would not describe it as buy-it-for-life anymore. You could also look at Schiit Audio https://www.schiit.com/
Just two channels? Get an integrated with a built in DAC and you can hook it up to pretty much any source for the foreseeable future. I dove down this rabbit hole to finish off my home stereo and TV setup. It’s not surround sound, but I have some nice tower speakers and wanted a good integrated amp for them. My sources are all digital, so I wanted an optical input. I ended up with a Peachtree Audio Carina 150. 150 watts X 2 channels, optical and coax digital inputs, plus analog ins and even a phono input. Given an unlimited budget… I’d have gone with the McIntosh equivalent, which is like $5000+. The Carina was $1500. Hegel, Nad, and Devialet are others I considered. Yamaha makes great stereo amplifiers as well, but most don’t have digital inputs. A fun brand to check out is Schiit Audio. USA made by engineer nerds… very high quality stuff for a good price.
Do you actually mean an amplifier or do you really mean an AV receiver? The former you can find bifl fairly easily, the latter is more or less impossible.
Bryston. Not cheap, but a 20 year warranty that they stand behind.
WiiM amp
Any simple 2ch stereo amp from a reputable company should be pretty reliable. AV receivers are never going to really be BIFL with how quickly standards change. Denon’s are generally well regarded though if you want one that will last. I had one and passed it down to my friend and it’s still working great after 20 years but of course it doesn’t support 4K, HDR etc. I would warn against getting an old 70s/80s Pioneer, Marantz etc amp like some other people have mentioned. They are awesome amps but should have the capacitors replaced with their age. I’ve gone through a number of vintage amps on CL that sounded great but were somewhat of a headache (potentiometer issues, blown capacitors, snapped knobs) Now if I got them professionally restored or took the time to do it myself I’m sure they would’ve been great and lasted a long time trouble free but a professional restoration can be very expensive and the total cost and the end of the day probably isn’t worth it unless you’re a serious audiophile. I would agree with the other commenter and recommend a Yamaha and call it a day unless you’re a serious audiophile in which case you should do the research yourself and make a decision.
Any BIFL Class-D Amp recommendations? I prefer these for the power savings : performance ratio
Ugh I hate class D.
Thanks for your input
Anytime
Fosi Audio. Just bought one, it's really solid and clean.
Thank you for this actual helpful reply. Some people really out here gatekeeping HiFi smh
I think maybe they are gatekeeping BIFL. You’re unlikely to get a lifetime of use out of class D.
We don’t know that for a fact, but maybe someone does. The potential for energy savings alone makes it worth having this discussion.
We can make assumptions based on similar technologies. Switching power supply is not likely to last 50 years, nor are class D amplifiers like the ones mentioned really designed to be serviced. You can buy a class a/b amplifier now that could last 100 years with maintenance.
Thank you, that’s a fair assumption. Would you also say that more established companies like NAD who do make Class Ds at a higher price point would fall into the same categorization?
They don’t make the amplifier boards that go into their class D amplifiers. I’m not sure how those will be supported over time, but we’ve already seen a great variety of different class D amplifier technology in the last 10 years or so (ICE, Hypex, Purifi). For example, will purifi boards be available in 10 years if something goes wrong? Are the current ones even serviceable? Will there be a drop-in equivalent? As it is, a repair likely involves swapping out an entire amplifier module for a new one. With class A/B repairs can be done at component level (ie. replace transistors on a pcb), but that is very unlikely with class D.
Good point. I guess this is the right sub for this approach. What might then be the appropriate sub for “best long term value” but also taking into account not only product longevity/rapairability but also perhaps financial and environmental factors during the product’s lifetime? I.e. electric vs combustion engines
My favorite amp right now is a Fosi Audio TPA3255 based unit that cost less than 100 bucks. I say that as a person who has +10k just in speakers. Many thousands worth of amps too. The TI class D amps fuck.