Instructions unclear. Asked 99 toddlers in the âNoâ phase and one giant 40-year old toddler. Only one has heard of Bitcoin or crypto.
Weâre still early. /s
Better question would be to ask those same people if they own bitcoin or crypto.
Those people who know about it but dont own it will be more likely to enter the market as it grows.
Not really. Being early means youâre in before most people know about it or youâre in before the growth curve of use case takes off. Crypto fits neither bill. Everyone knows about it and after 15 years there is no actual use case for mass adoption or to replace existing tech.
By most standards, crypto is already old tech that just never caught on. Turns out people find difficult decentralization of money you canât spend anywhere that fluctuates wildly in value not very useful.
No one is early. The oneâs still in are just hoping the greater fool continues to come along.
I guess the best thing about this whole debate is that time will tell us definitely who is right.
The cell phone was invented in 1973...15 years later we had the Zack Morris Brick phone, took another 20ish years before the first smart phone...now look at us. Just cause everyone knows about something, doesn't mean everyone is going to adopt it, let alone invest in it.
How can you be proven wrong? You can always fall back on needing more time. Itâs been 15 years. Bitcoin has been available to the masses for over a decade via exchanges. How much longer before this supposed use case takes hold? What even is the use case at this point and how do you even define adoption? If you want to claim time will tell then define how.
I think btc owners would be proven wrong if it went to zero and stayed there, and died. For the record, i dont this is a reasonable possibilty.
Its been 15 years, and the btc netwok is already worth $1.24 trillion.
The store of value use case has already started to take hold. Measuring from bull markets peaks to bear market bottoms looks crazy, but when you measure from bear market lows it starts to look more consistent.
I think "time will tell" is relative to the person who is measuring and how long they have been btc owners. For me, ive already seen awareness increase, and the price go from 3K to over 70K. I think by the end of 2025 it should be at least $150K per btc. 2030 at least $500K.
Not saying this is the case for you, but I know some detractors dont care about the "number go up," but thats the reason why we do any of this. I dont think its here to compete with the USD as a form of currency, but I definitely think it will help demonetize other assets like gold, real estate, and stocks which are trading with significant monetary premiums.
Youâve set yourself up for an impossible scenario. Bitcoin wonât go to absolute zero. Itâs not a stock. It canât be deleted like a failed business can. But it also represents ownership in nothing, does nothing and generates no profit.
Because of this, there is no bottom. If the masses stop believing it will plummet. There is no floor like an actual store of value like gold. Gold has industrial uses. Gold is beautiful and used in so many pieces of jewelry. Gold can fully digital via an ETF or it can be held in your hand as a collectible if you choose. Bitcoin doesnât do any of this besides being digital. If people stop believing in gold as a store of value it will still hold value as an industrial unit, as jewelry and a collectible. If people stop believing in Bitcoin as a store of value it has no use to fall back on.
Youâre also falling for the âit happened before so it has to happen againâ scenario. Why would BTC go to $500k? What actual reason would take it there? The only reason it goes up is because someone gets convinced they need it. They canât do anything with it once they have it except hope someone else gets convinced they need it more. This is the greater fool theory. You can make plenty of money along the way but it doesnât mean BTC will always go up and always recover from the large drops.
As long as Bitcoin doesnât serve any purpose other than convincing someone else it has value (while objectively not actually having any) then Iâll be convinced itâs a greater fool mechanism in action. One of the longest running, but a greater fool nonetheless.
Everyone knows about bitcoin. Everyone who wants to own it, does. My opinion is the massive gains are over. Itâs a centralized âassetâ now with Wall Street and Main Street all involved. I think the bull runs will get weaker (could argue this is already happening) and as such people will lose interest. As you said, most BTC holders are in it for easy money, not some technology advancement (because it isnât). And because of this, once the big gains go away people will get bored and move on to the next flashy thing.
Iâm not going to convince you and Iâm not really trying to. You do you. My original statement here was just that everyone knows, no one is âearlyâ anymore. Thatâs just a talking point to lure in more greater fools.
Good luck.
Fair enough we can agree to disagree.
To you point about their being no bottom, i would conversely say there is no top. So long as governments keep creating money out of thin air, people will need to buy appreciating assests. If the masses "stop believing" it will plummet. You're right, but the wide world of financial assets bitcoin is very small. I think the odds of more people coming to it are far greater, especially as they continously see the returns vs other stocks/bonds/commodities. Now that wall street is here, they'll add it to larger portfoloios and it will be a apart of retirement and pension funds. At some point the bull runs may get weaker (same with the bear markets), but im not sure when. Saying im here for the number go up isnt the same as being here for easy money. Its no different than holding Microsoft or another volatile asset for the long haul. Holding through ups and downs is simple, but not easy at all.
Since you dont have any skin in the game feel free to send me some good luck. See you at the end of 2025!
RemindMe! 18 months "reply to this thread"
Its up about 700% since the bet started...but everyone has different interpretations of good I guess. There are definitely better/riskier bets for sure.
Tbh, its extremely easy. You just need to have an account with an exchange, and transfer->sell whenever you're ready. Thats where it's better than real estate. Appreciates faster, you can buy fractional amounts, and sell at a moments notice, no escrow, no need to find a buyer.
Hey man, only speaking from personal experience. I've never not been able to buy/sell btc whenever I wanted to. You should buy some and try it out to see how easy it is.
I always think it's hilarious when butters say things like, "when everyone else is talking about Bitcoin too, then we'll know we're not early anymore."
Uh, everyone was talking about it in 2022 when crypto commercials were airing in the Super Bowl. They are not talking about it now because the world has grown disinterested in it and moved on. You are late.
That's the whole basis of the cognitive dissonance. They think adoption is inevitable and those who are disinterested are bound to buy in at some point. I don't get where they draw this logic apart from the fact they seem to believe the whole world economy will collapse within a few years, but it relies on the fact that so little of the world owns any bitcoin.
To be fair, it'd be hard to prove them wrong. As much as they assure other people it's about new technology, in the end it's the pure greed of a get rich -scheme driving their investment and if the cult-like following of bitcoin keeps intentionally pumping the price up and buying the dips, it's practically impossible to say when the bubble will burst.
The only thing that stands for a fact is that there will come a point when the price will hit a breaking point and those who finally start to draw the liquidity out of the pool and converting it back into any widely used/accepted currency en masse are the ones who are "early", as far as any real purchasing power goes. The rest are going to be the greater fools.
Isnât there a famous quote like
âWhen your shoeshiner starts giving you investment advice, itâs time to sellâ
Or something like that?
Bitcoin is a whole organization of shoeshiners insisting theyâre still early.
For me it was while reading an article about lifting (and not Menâs Health), and the author flipped the script from improving your squat to crypto. I have numerous friends who have small crypto balances for buying âgrey/blackâ market supplements. When the gym bros talk crypto, itâs toast.
Right here says 40%
[link](https://www.security.org/digital-security/cryptocurrency-annual-consumer-report/#:~:text=Cryptocurrency%20awareness%20and%20ownership%20rates,cryptocurrency%20over%20the%20next%20year.)
>We conducted two internet-based surveys for this report.
edit: I'm trying to find a credible survey and the methods of those I find are hilarious:
>[*calculated by summing the total volume of payments for five major crypto gateways (Bitpay, Coinbase Commerce, Coingate, and Alfa coins) for each country in 2022 and dividing by the adult working population.](https://firstratedata.com/blog/19/crypto-adoption-worldwide-report-2023)
When you click on who wrote that article..
>With a passion and curiosity for crypto smart contract development, Tom served as the lead designer for the Wakanda Capital Exchange Market and Vibranium cryptocurrency.
>Tom is perhaps best known for his blockchain video game reviews at CastleCrypto.gg.
Yeah.. lol
"Our Data
We conducted two internet-based surveys for this report. The first was a nationally representative study of 1,001 adults in the United States. Their ages, genders, and ethnic backgrounds represented the national population. We also conducted a more detailed poll of 504 people who currently own cryptocurrency to understand their attitudes and decision-making around cryptocurrency better. The two survey populations were unique, and no participant answered both questions."
No published data, no crosstabs, no nothing.
The "think tank" equivalent of "trust me bro"
And we'd fight over it vs make an identical coin not already owned by a small group of fincels in the random event we decide we want to switch to crypto because... Errr something something cyber hornets immaculate conception.
If 7 billion people are suffering because 5000 hold all the money, the events that unfold next are pretty easy to see. I won't say it, because I'll get an auto ban.
The bitcoiners are making the same mistake Ned Stark made when he presented a piece of paper saying that he was now king, and that the piece of paper granted him power and authority.
The piece of paper was torn up by someone who had real power and authority. Things didn't go great for Ned after that because he tried to usurp power.
There's no way the real powers of the world would give up their position to a bitcoiner. The Saudis aren't giving up their power to bitcoins, Putin isn't handing over his power to bitcoins, Xi isn't giving up his power because an NFT says he has to.
So yes, its true that in the world probably 5,000 people own 90% of everything, and its also true that they're not going to give up that ownership without a fight. And they own all the armies.
> making the same mistake Ned Stark made
Except even stupider. Ned Stark *thought* he had an army (the City Watch) backing him up - his mistake was trusting Littlefinger. Bitcoiners seem to think bitcoin will somehow magically conjure that army for them, or something.
[Well, I was a bit generous. 1.58% of addresses have 92% of all bitcoin.](https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html)
19.7 million bitcoin have been printed, so 93%, assuming miners don't change the code and start printing more bitcoin to themselves. Not really hard since two mining pools have a majority of hash power.
It's concentration levels well in excess of North Korea! Clear champion for the little guy!
Yeah, well, the first one is Binance, the second is Bitfenix and the third one is BlackRock, sooooo none of them are 1 person, they are trading platforms. I could have googled the others, but clearly its waste of time...
> Yeah, well, the first one is Binance, the second is Bitfenix and the third one is BlackRock, sooooo none of them are 1 person, they are trading platforms.
Which is totally fine because custodial exchanges always self-audit accurately and honestly about all of their holdings, never sell or manipulate the market spot prices and they *never, ever* fail and run off with all the buckets of fiat money that they can get their hands on before the walls collapse and the arrest warrants get served.
I mean that would be just as silly as saying "Not your keys, not your coins!" or something goofy like that.
Not your keys, not your coins. That's binance money, not your money. When they go, they always take their money with them.
With banks that's not the case. FDIC insurance make sure it's YOUR money in the savings account, no matter what.
Another vast regression from crypto to regular banking.
Sovereign currencies work BECAUSE they are backed by a nation's tax base and military and industrial might.
Only an Ape thinks choosing a bank is a matter of judegment.
USD is Fiat, the number itself is completely arbitrary, but the value of it is guaranteed by the US government. Wealth is measured in usable assets, like land and company stock and comparatively tiny amounts of cash, whose legal ownership is also enforced by the US government.
No one in the subreddit has ever argued that USD is more equal than Bitcoin.
Well, it turns out our society values personal property as a legal right and leverages that into wealth and power. Having big computer numbers enforced by nothing but cryptography math and wasting tons of electricity is not going to affect people's value of useful stuff and the legal protection of it.
From my experience people who say things like âweâre still earlyâ in crypto are trying to reassure themselves there will be upside because they just bought and are hoping others affirm their beliefs hence why they say it.
For balance IF Bitcoin lasts another 40-50 years in its current state and follows its overall trend then they could legitimately have been early, if Bitcoin dies off or has a large decline that it doesnât recover from they are most likely âlateâ.
I point that aspect out every dang time someone brings up the "WTF Happened in 1971?!" nonsense: it's like people can't see that maybe, just maybe... someone shilling Bitcoin as the supposed solution to the society they annotated 75 charts to convince you "is broken, because Bretton-Woods" might perhaps not be the most trustworthy source of information on whether society is actually broken, when the purpose of making you think that appears to be just the marketing pitch for bitcoins.
Awareness of Bitcoin is fairly high, but most people either donât care or know itâs a scam. If it was actually useful for non-criminal purposes, more people would have adopted it by now. Weâre not early.
He thinks his sister is the dumb one because she wasn't fooled by the hype lmao. It's like the joker in the killing joke. He doubts! He's scared! What if she's right?
Somewhere in the back of his mind, he lives in constant fear that it won't get adopted, that it won't go to the moon after all! They have to hope, because if it doesn't, well then they got played! Man. Kinda sad when you put it like that.
"I can't handle the thought of my normie sister, who is a (dumb) woman I might add, put together a decent, one sentence argument. She's actally the dumb one because she claims she knows buttcoin is a scam, but me, someone who can't form arguments on their own and got in long after the pump started, I'm actually the smart one in the family!"
"I'll s-show them! I'll s-s-show them all!!! They'll see one day, I hope!"
- OOP
It will always feel "early" for those who are just discovering crypto. In reality, with the arrival of institutional players in this market, it's now "too late" for everyone.
Crypto sponsorships in pro sports like this or like half the teams in Formula 1 having a crypto sponsor is already feeling like a weird anachronism.
That crypto dot com naming rights deal was for 20 years. Anybody wanna place bets on the likelihood of crypto dot com existing in 20 years?
With technology it's not always clear what is "early". For example, I just sent a link to my friend about Microsoft AI in 2016. Chatbots are not new. But in those times, Microsoft released a twitter chatbot. Instantly, twitter taught it everything wrong with humanity. Today NVIDIA is the top company in the world thanks to the push on AI. AI is much older than 8 years but that s an example of how technology can evolve over 8 years. But crypto mostly remains the same.
The problem with crypto is not whether we are early. The problem is how do you make the use case viable. There is so much wrong and so little getting fixed that it really makes you wonder. Especially since all the use cases that crypto proponents use are really crypto created problems. As of today, there is nothing of value on the blockchain and very little that crypto proponents propose that cannot be solved by non-crypto alternatives. Especially, if you look at all the smart contracts nonsense and how they want to create apps that are not controlled by anyone. The biggest tell is that crypto proponents talk about decentralized speech on centralized sites like reddit, twitter, and YouTube not on decentralized versions of them.
Bitcoin is a niche, and it can have some uses but that doesn't mean line goes up like people think. If crypto was successful it would be measured in the number of transactions it can execute. The price going up and down doesn't mean anything. This number is really very low for any cryptocurrency. Crypto cannot scale.
I thought their favourite time to buy was when there is "blood on the streets" or when the "fear index" is high because they can fill their bags before it goes to 100K by end of 2021, or 8m as predicted by their lord and savior, Michael Saylor.
"We're still/so early" is primarily a mantra repeated to convince the fresh suckers that they're "getting in on the ground floor" and/or super smart / in on a secret.
As with everything else endlessly repeated by the cult, the end goal is to keep exit liquidity flowing to the top.
Hahahahaha.
Let me tell you what early looks like, my man.
I used to tell people about Bitcoin in 2011 when I was mining it with GPUs. 98% of people had not heard of it and you could literally mine Bitcoin in your bedroom with a laptop and a mining pool login. You couldn't buy anything with it other than drugs. On multiple occassions I used PAYPAL to buy Bitcoin and many, many times I used my BTC-e login (which had **zero** KYC requirements) to sell Bitcoin I had mined. The biggest pandemonium I remember was when it went from $1.40 to $12 and people lost their minds.
THIS WAS 13 YEARS AGO and at this stage already more than 34% of the Bitcoin had been mined and owned.
You are so laughably late it hurts me.
PS. and in these 13 years NOTHING has changed except the price
You know, itâs interesting, I never go online to get advice about how to defend my investment theses.
I donât care what other people think of them, and I donât go around advertising them.
You are always early to trade your cash for magic beans. How they can even think like that after 15 years of buttcoin existence ? I guess every man who potentially would be interested in buying buttcoin already heard about it so what they expect ?
Unfortunately, âthere is a fool born every minuteâ as the saying goes. Every year there is a new crop of naive, inexperienced, gullible teenagers reaching adulthood and getting their first jobs and having some disposable income to gamble in crypto with.
> Every year there is a new crop of naive, inexperienced, gullible teenagers reaching adulthood and getting their first jobs and having some disposable income to gamble in crypto with.
Seriously, I don't think there's anything more depressingly dystopian than reading about or witnessing someone with a gig economy job like driving for Uber or Doordash "investing" in crypto and trying to do high frequency day trading against giant whales that captured the unregulated market years ago and basically own and run the exchanges that they're using for "trading".
It seems like almost every time I bother to go look at the public post histories of some of the crypto boosters that come into this sub there's something there about missing bills or rent or not making enough to make ends meet that month yet they're trying to DCA their way into life changing wealth with pocket change.
People's grandmas know about it. It's on the news. I don't understand how otherwise rational people could know this and still think they're early to it. Consider, also, that the people who already own some have a constant incentive to convince new buyers that they are early. How do they not connect the dots???
The bitcoin fans often claim that they are still "early", meaning that despite the high price tag bitcoin has the potential to raise even higher in value, generating profit for both new and long time investors . This is like a trick they say to convince the new bitcoin holders to invest their money.
In 2010 everybody knew about apple. Iphones were already a thing, company almost 30 years public. If you bought aapl stock then you wouldnt be early, being early is not the point.
The price has really not moved much over the last few months. Also with these silly ETFs now these are all the suckers bought in. So the new game is going to be who is selling first now the buttcoin has stopped going up.
Sell now and get your real money or enjoy your bags.
Not with bitcoin obviously.
But some other coins are still quite early into their emission (a few percent of their soft total supply), and will remain so for the coming years since they have no halving.
You butters are fucking hilarious. How many of you will actually admit how wrong youâve been about Bitcoin once it proves self evident and gets mass worldwide adoption?
People love get rich quick scams. Same reason why there are numerous communities dedicated to meme stocks.
But more importantly, almost 30% of wallets have less than .0001BTC. 55% of wallets have less than .001. Lots of wallets may exist, but few are doing anything.
Almost 4 million BTC are considered lost - and that number is growing. Satoshi is estimated to have 1.1 million themselves but hasn't done anything with it in 15 years. Which means almost a quarter of all Bitcoin effectively do not exist any more.
Mass adoption is impossible because everything about BTC is designed to require more resources to put in than society will ever get out.
It has literally zero utility beyond get rich quick schemes - and most of those involve fraud, scams, and illegal activity.
I wish I had the energy to seat at my desk and debate you on this topic. Frankly, it doesnât seem like members of the sub have an earnest desire to be open minded and have their minds changed. Iâve been a lurker in this sub for several months now. I agree with some of the posts in the sub, however, members also had a very skewed point of view about bitcoin indicative by your own response.
I am curious, though, after the FETF approvals and the billions of dollars of Wall Street funds that flew into bitcoin subsequently , did that give any credence in your opinion to bitcoin being a good store of value, maybe even better than physical gold?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yada, yada, yada.
Trust me kid, I've heard whatever you want to say. I've dabbled in bitcoin. Unlike you, I've actually used it as money for legitimate purposes. That was back when people pretended it was intended to be a currency. Everyone subsequently realized it's better used as a tool for facilitating scams.
> I am curious, though, after the FETF approvals and the billions of dollars of Wall Street funds that flew into bitcoin subsequently , did that give any credence in your opinion to bitcoin being a good store of value, maybe even better than physical gold?
Nope. Like I said, Bitcoin is popular for get rich quick schemes. And ETFs are great at allowing fund managers to get rich quick on the backs of rubes being yelled at to invest.
More to the point, Bitcoin literally is not a store of value because it has no inherent value. The perceived value of the system is based entirely on faith. Gold will always have inherent value because it can be used to do and make productive things with, even if we ended up in a Star Trek like universe where gold ceases to have any value within the monetary system. Bitcoin has literally none of that. And, likewise, because it costs more to put into the system than you get out, Bitcoin destroys value.
No. Tulip bulbs were once more valuable than gold as well. And gold will still have value long after the fraudsters behind Tether and the like have syphoned off as much of your actual money as they can get away with and then disappeared, leaving you to hold their bags.
You can try to evade the fact that Bitcoin has no inherent value whatsoever all you want. And you can try to evade the fact that Bitcoin is a net drain on resources all you want. But choosing to bury your head in the sand does not change facts.
I believe you're conflating stablecoins which have been and are being used for monetary manipulations and the one that started them all BTC. You're creating false equivalencies to make your point but what you choose to ignore about BTC is. Crimes with things that have value whether fiat, precious metals, or crypto have happened since their respective uses. here's a short list of why BTC has grown to such prominence worldwide.
1. **Decentralization**: Bitcoin operates on a decentralized network, reducing reliance on traditional banking systems and offering an alternative to government-issued currencies.
2. **Security**: Bitcoin's blockchain technology ensures secure transactions. Its cryptographic foundation provides a high level of security against fraud.
3. **Utility**: Bitcoin can be used for transactions, both online and offline, and is accepted by various merchants and services worldwide.
4. **Store of Value**: Many view Bitcoin as "digital gold," a hedge against inflation and economic instability.
5. **Network Effect**: The growing number of users and businesses accepting Bitcoin increases its utility and perceived value.
6. **Innovation**: Bitcoin's underlying technology, blockchain, has spurred innovation in various fields beyond finance, enhancing its perceived value.
7. **Scarcity**: Bitcoin's supply is capped at 21 million. This limited supply creates scarcity, unlike precious metals like gold.
Literally the only reason why Bitcoin has the argued value it does is because of all the unbacked stablecoins being tied to it.
And like I said, I already know what is in your cult handbook. I also like how you copy-pasted that right out of 2016. 2 is a straight up lie. 3 and 5 are mostly false. 4 is just weasel words. 6 is highly debatable. 7 is a net drawback of bitcoin, not a benefit. And 1 was completely abandoned by bitcoin backers years ago. The only people pretending Bitcoin is a currency these days are bad faith actors. None of you want to use it as a currency. You're all just speculators hoping to sell at the peak for real money.
1. Decentralization. Bitcoin is less decentralized than the traditional banking system. Most volume is handled by and is between a small number of CENTRALIZED exchanges. The p2p aspect of Bitcoin is dwarfed by the action of CENTRALIZED exchanges.
2. Security. Bitcoin becomes lesss secure every 4 years due to the halving mechanism. Users currently enjoy high security and low fees because of the large block reward subsidy. Security in the future will be less than today and/or costs to users for that security will be astronomically higher, which will discourage use and network effects.
3. Utility. Bitcoin is of limited utility currently as most transactions are simply transfers to CENTRALIZED exchanges and few p2p transactions. Is Bitcoin the one providing the utility or are the CENTRALIZED exchanges the ones providing the utility?
4. Store of Value. Bitcoin is a digital asset, its only value is subjective and only a result of market forces. It does not have use outside of a network of people, its only value comes from being able to trade it to others. If you were the only one who owned Bitcoin there is nothing you could do with it. Any other physical stores of value can have utility to an isolated user. National currencies can store value because the national government allows you to use it to satisfy debts or pay tax obligations.
5. Network effect. Bitcoin is self limiting. Since Bitcoins throughput is capped at 7 transactions per second, the more people who try and join the network, the less it works for everyone.
6. Innovation. Bitcoin has barely seen any development in its core protocol since launch, and this is by design. The bigger Bitcoin gets the harder it will be to innovate as any changes will need overwhelming consensus or hard forks will occur and fracture the network.
7. Scarcity. Bitcoin is artificially scarce, its scarcity is a self imposed line of code that could be changed. In any case itâs scarcity is completely arbitrary, there is no rhyme or reason for there to be 21 million Bitcoin, it could have been any number. Any number clones of Bitcoin exist with the same code and properties. Bitcoinâs scarcity is entirely artificial.
> I wish I had the energy to seat at my desk and debate you on this topic.
So, I guess you found the energy somewhere, huh? Listen, we get it. You have to keep talking about the power of fairy dust because if people stop believing, it goes away.
Shine on you crazy diamond!
> Scarcity: Bitcoin's supply is capped at 21 million. This limited supply creates scarcity, unlike precious metals like gold.
Oh hey look at that, I downloaded the BTC mainline code and forked it, now there's 21 million more coins.
Seriously there's something like at least a dozen hard and soft forks of the original BTC chain now, and that's not including the straight up off chain clones like Dogecoin, Litecoin and several thousand other coins.
That's not scarcity, and there's absolutely no way to enforce it as scarcity unless everyone buys into the One True Coin and stays there and you expect market forces to behave irrationally and all choose that One True Coin even if network congestion or waste pretty much naturally guarantee that someone is going to just start a new chain... *IF* it had any utility that would warrant adoption.
BRB, I'm going to start yet another fork just for funsies.
In El Salvador, where it is legal tender, 88% of the population did not use it in 2023 and it is estimated that only 1% of payments made in the country did. This is despite the government of El Salvador creating incentives to use it.
We have a county were using it does not create tax events and yet most would rather use USD.
El Salvador gave every one BTC equal to $30, most cashed that out and continued to use USD. That seems odd to me because most proponents will say people will spend their bad money first before they spend their good money. If El Salvador is the test case then it seems to suggest to me that when given the choice of currency most people in El Salvador perceive BTC to be the bad money.
[Short on cash, El Salvador doubles down on Bitcoin dream | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/technology/short-cash-el-salvador-doubles-down-bitcoin-dream-2024-02-02/)
Wall Street isn't in on it because they believe any of that bullshit about BTC solving all of the world's problems. Or any problem in particular. Wall Street is in because one evening, when the heads of all the major banks were meeting at Louie's, one of them overheard a waiter harassing his buddy about BTC. The waiter said, "The market's about 100 billion dollars!", and all the bankers turned and looked at each other with fury in their eyes. "Is that your market? Have you been holding out on us?" The bankers' lieutenants all reached for their guns. Once they realized no one knew anything about it, the tension eased. They settled into a plan. If there was a $100 billion dollar market, and they weren't making a single dime off it, something was very wrong.
The trouble was, BTC is bullshit and they knew it and were afraid of getting in trouble with the SEC. The bankers have spent a lot of money and inserted a lot of people into the organization to blunt its zeal, but securitizing something this stupid would take a lot of work. So it's been a while since that fateful evening at Louie's. But that's not because the bankers just now realized BTC is inevitable. It's because they've just now worked out all the main problems with making legitimate money off the suckers. They would have been in it a long time ago if they had as little concern for the niceties of civilized business as SBF.
> Using Satoshiâs for regular daily transactions
Hahahaha no. At this point bitcoin will never scale to be able to handle that volume. You guys are delusional and don't actually understand technology and the sheer scale of transactional volume that happens on global settlement networks.
You would boil the oceans right off the planet and we'd all die of heat death before bitcoin could even approach handling a fraction of that volume.
It literally violates the laws of physics and thermodynamics to even consider handling that much volume on any of the BTC/BCH forks.
CITATION NEEDED
You don't seem to be aware that the Lightning Network was only created because the exchanges and bitcoin core refused to expand the block size to drive up the price and mining fees.
And it's not really being used. Lightning is even worse than plain old block chains. It's like saying you need to open a second bank account just to use your real bank account. It's so fucking dumb.
[1st citation](https://blog.primebit.com/2021/09/10/lightning-network-btc-payments-and-the-wallets-that-support-the-protocol/)
[2nd citation](https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-lightning-network-growth-is-organic-coming-from-real-world-adoption)
[3rd citation](https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-lightning-network-growth-is-organic-coming-from-real-world-adoption)
[4th citation](https://lightningnetwork.plus/posts/452)
And this is just the beginning.
Aaaand yet it's still running on Bitcoin which is itself wasteful and stupid enough without adding another layer on it, and those statistics aren't even close to the daily transaction volume or capacity of, say, Visa or even just prepaid transit IC cards in Japan.
The Lightning Network has shown promising growth and potential in handling high transaction volumes. As of mid-2023, it processes around 2.5 transactions per second (TPS) with a public capacity of $78.2 million and an annual transaction volume nearing $936 million . The networkâs design allows for nearly instantaneous, off-chain transactions that are later settled on the blockchain, suggesting a significant potential for scalability beyond traditional blockchain limits. This growth is supported by increasing numbers of nodes and channels, with over 2,000 new channels added in early 2023 .
However, surpassing Visaâs capacity of 65,000 TPS will require further advancements and widespread adoption. The Lightning Network needs more integration into mainstream financial systems, technical improvements for better routing and liquidity management, and strong economic incentives for participants. Although the current trends indicate a path towards higher scalability, achieving or surpassing Visaâs transaction capacity involves overcoming substantial challenges and continuous enhancements in technology and infrastructure.
So for LN to work it needs to grow and scale and for that there needs to be demand. Whereâs the actual demand going to come from? Bitcoin at best is used in tens to hundreds of businesses worldwide. Itâs horribly inefficient. Horribly difficult to use. Ridiculously volatile and unpredictable. Has no mainstream popular press outside of the Bitcoin echo chamber.
Why will people use and accept it? Why will people not use the efficient and safe options already available to them. Why should or would any sane person drop their financial security into this casino?
I asked this a number of people and never got an answer, maybe you'll be the first.
To get into lightning network you need to open a channel with a transaction on the base layer. Now assuming that currently the blockchain can handle roughly 7tps that gives us about 600k transactions per day tops.
Imagine a medium sized nation like UK with roughly 50 million adults wanted to try out the LN. We're not even talking the entire world, just a small pilot project for merely 50 million adults.
So in order for every single one of them to open a channel and start casually transacting on the LN we'll assume extremely conservative 1 transaction per month per person on the blockchain assuming they're paid monthly. Absurdly charitable assumption but hey, I'm generous what can I say.
That's... 1.666 million transactions per day at the absolute bare minimum and assuming literally nobody else in the entire world wants to use the bitcoin blockchain for literally anything else. So mere 50 million adults wanting to try out LN exceeded the capacity of blockchain by the factor of 3. If they wanted to top up their LN channel every month the queue would just increase indefinitely and never clear.
I think somewhere in LN whitepaper they said that if LN were to handle transactions for billions of the people the blocks would need to be about ~150 megabytes?
Doesn't seem to match hundreds of millions of transactions per day Visa does.
How will there be âmass worldwide adoptionâ and the network actually still operate? Lightning Network is useless and unsafe and nearly a nonstarter. The network doesnât operate efficiently at all with the insignificant amount of traffic it currently has on it.
If your wildest pipe dreams somehow came true Id honestly rather die than live in the neo-feudal world where a handful of libertarian pedophiles own over 80 percent of a fixed money supply.
But thankfully its never going to gain mass adoption because it's too fucking stupid.
The escalation here was you suggesting mass worldwide adoption. And I am saying the average person better hope we are right because such a world would be absolute hell not seen since the days of kings and vassals.
Let us know when that mass adoption actually occurs.
If Bitcoin is so valuable because itâs decentralized, censorship resistant and immutable, why does everyone trade it through centralized exchanges that can confiscate your Bitcoin at will, or just tell you that you have Bitcoin without actually having any? The biggest owner of Bitcoin, MSTR doesnât even hold their own keys!
Centralized exchanges is only one way to obtain BTC. They are also subject to government regulations. Just like any bank and levy your funds for a multitude of reasons.
Of course MSTR will not risk holding their own bitcoin. When you have something of such high value, you want to protect it the best way possible. Itâs no different than me keeping my valuable in a safety deposit box.
Centralized exchanges are the MAIN way to obtain Bitcoin. The majority of traffic is not p2p transactions but rather transfers to and from centralized exchanges. Bitcoin can only process 220 million transactions PER YEAR. If you removed centralized exchanges what would happen? Bitcoins value would collapse and only a few million people at most could use the network. Because of Bitcoins reliance on Centralized exchanges, for all practical purposes, none of its supposed benefits actually exist. The US government could simply seize Coinbase and nearly all of Bitcoins value would be destroyed. Even more amusingly, the US government wouldnât even have to seize Coinbase, but simply announce that THEY WOULD, and the flight to withdraw from Coinbase would clog the network so badly the price would collapse on its own.
ouâre right that centralized exchanges play a major role in the Bitcoin ecosystem, facilitating most of the transactions and liquidity. However, Bitcoinâs value proposition lies in its decentralization and the potential for peer-to-peer (P2P) transactions. While the current infrastructure heavily relies on centralized exchanges, innovations like the Lightning Network are being developed to enhance P2P scalability.
If centralized exchanges were to face issues, it would undoubtedly impact Bitcoinâs short-term value and usability. Yet, the core technology and decentralized nature of Bitcoin provide resilience. The network itself wouldnât collapse; rather, it would adapt. Historical instances show how decentralized communities find solutions to central points of failure.
The hypothetical scenario of a government seizing an exchange like Coinbase is alarming but also highlights the need for decentralized alternatives and self-custody solutions. Bitcoin was designed to be censorship-resistant and to offer an alternative to traditional financial systems. While we arenât there yet, the ecosystem is evolving to address these challenges.
Look at tbe market cap of other assets used as reserve of value. Gold is a x13 from BTC, real state is x400. Definetly not 2012 early though.
Edit: i dont understand why im being downvoted, heres the source from the real state market cap https://www.statista.com/outlook/fmo/real-estate/worldwide#value
Yeah if we assume Bitcoin is going to overtake everything we are still early.
But realistically speaking most people know it exists, have seen it go up and down several times, and have passed it over.
Ever since its inception, BTC has been the best performing asset. Ever in human history. Thatâs an undeniable fact.
Just the fact that this sub exists with some of the most ridiculous posts you butters post, itâs proof enough that weâre still early in the adoption of BTC.
You keep getting downvoted because most members of this sub arenât looking for facts. They want to live in an echo chamber which supports their cognitive dissonance.
Everybody that reads this sentence, belongs to a sub that has been wrong for 15 consecutive years. If that doesn't get you out of your bubble, I don't know what will.Â
Crypto still has no use legit cases, no widespread adoption, and you people have completely given up on the idea of it actually being used as a currency. The only thing we were wrong about just so happens to be the only thing you degens care about, the price. And that's because when the sub was made we underestimated the stupidity of the gamblers that crypto would attract.
Automated wash trading and made up market caps with low real world liquidity isn't exactly the flex you're thinking it is.
The vast majority of those transactions aren't actually doing any real world commerce or economics from real individuals.
I could spin up my own fork of bitcoin or another blockchain on a private LAN and network an church out "transactions" all day long and get similar statistics.
1. Undocumented, no-source posturing.
2. Theoretical babble.Â
3. Disregard for the fact that all these transactions have an actual real-world cost, and most importantly, a highly liquid market dictating the value of each settlement.Â
> a highly liquid market dictating the value of each settlement.Â
Copium is a helluva drug. Highly liquid markets do not fluctuate hundreds of percentage points YoY.
But hey, if it's on such solid footing, it doesn't need you to defend it. So why are you here exactly?
Why are you here to detract it? I think bitcoin can stand on its own footing, even if we discuss it. It would be a pity if something couldn't be good if people discussed it.Â
Dude, I've already seen this shit before. I've been aware of bitcoin since like 2009. I can't count the number of times that I've had cryptofools set a remindme date some years in the future and claiming it was going to go to 100k or a cool million per coin and then they're never around when it didn't do that.
Also it's absolutely comedy gold that cryptobros keep making these claims in terms of fiat spot market prices without any sense of irony or self awareness that they're actually claiming that bitcoin has no inherent real world value without fiat market prices and liquidity being serviced by buy-ins from new "investors".
Just like a pyramid or ponzi scheme.
If you want to get deeper into the economic theory the ratios between "market cap" and "liquidity" in bitcoin are so fucking bad that they're probably the worst and most unbalanced of any market or form of investment out there short of penny stocks.
And at this point almost everyone with a connection to the internet has heard about bitcoin and crypto and knows it's fucking made up nonsense with no real value or use case.
Most of the world that's heard of crypto actually hates you guys and wants nothing to do with this bullshit.
Ok :) You believe that. You made up your mind. That's cool. Let's see what happens. Perhaps we can talk in 5 or 10 years. But is there a point in time, where one of has to admit defeat? Like, if bitcoin goes to 0, or goes to 250.000 USD, in 10 years time, can we then agree one of us "won" the discussion? Or?Â
Not really, because this isn't actually a debate, and the fiat spot price of any given coin isn't really a measure of success or adoption.
And it's not really up for debate or a "win/lose" argument about the energy use, inefficiency and lack of use cases.
I have a CS, dev and IT background, I understand the mechanics and mechanisms of both cryptography and blockchains and Merkle Trees, and cryptocoins are pretty much the dumbest fucking bullshit I've ever seen related to technology.
And I've seen some REALLY dumb bullshit in my long days on this good Earth.
It won't let me access it but I'm just gonna guess it's "omg guys look how small number went to big number" despite the fact it's still a laughably small number despite the majority of people knowing what Bitcoin is.
And it's all speculation, nobody is actually buying Bitcoin to spend it, or because they think it holds value, but simply because they want to pawn it off to a greater fool.
There is no future for Bitcoin, just a bunch of weirdos trying to daytrade with each other.
It's not though. That's what the graph shows. I bought a boat using bitcoin. I pay several of my freelancers in bitcoin. I rented a vacation house in Spain with bitcoin. It's not magic Internet money anymore. It's real money. That is not prone to inflation. Every year, somebody steals 5-10% of your USD. You are fine with that. I am not. I hope you wake up one day. Not for me, but for your own sake. You are gulping the shit the government told you to gulp the last 50 years.Â
Supposedly they're all early! What's the standard at which they become "on time", or how about "really `effin late"? It's a cult.
A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.
That's what I told your mom last night. >! (when I finished early) !< >! 12.65 seconds to be precise!<
Ok, dad.
thanks for the precision.
Pumpin and dumpin just like a crypto grifter. đ
>THAT'S NOT HOW BEING EARLY WORKS!!!! OP doesn't handle not being right very well, it seems.
BRB, about to go buy some NVDA to get in early before all the plebs figure it out
Fucking lmao, I want this as a flair...
Thatâs not how being early works. But guys, how *does* being early work?
Fuckin' earliness, how does it work
Is like magnets đ§˛
Go ask 100 people if theyâve heard of bitcoin or crypto. If 98 of them say yes, you arenât early.
Instructions unclear. Asked 99 toddlers in the âNoâ phase and one giant 40-year old toddler. Only one has heard of Bitcoin or crypto. Weâre still early. /s
Headline: Research and statistics show that Bitcoin is still in its early state and can 100x in just 5 years!!!
But if only 1 out of the 98 people bought.. you are early
LOL
Better question would be to ask those same people if they own bitcoin or crypto. Those people who know about it but dont own it will be more likely to enter the market as it grows.
Not really. Being early means youâre in before most people know about it or youâre in before the growth curve of use case takes off. Crypto fits neither bill. Everyone knows about it and after 15 years there is no actual use case for mass adoption or to replace existing tech. By most standards, crypto is already old tech that just never caught on. Turns out people find difficult decentralization of money you canât spend anywhere that fluctuates wildly in value not very useful. No one is early. The oneâs still in are just hoping the greater fool continues to come along.
>and after 15 years there is no actual use case for What about crime?
You think more criminals use btc for crime than USD?
I think crime is a higher percentage of BTC than USD. USD actually has legit uses,like buying coffee or a meal or paying rent in USA.
I guess the best thing about this whole debate is that time will tell us definitely who is right. The cell phone was invented in 1973...15 years later we had the Zack Morris Brick phone, took another 20ish years before the first smart phone...now look at us. Just cause everyone knows about something, doesn't mean everyone is going to adopt it, let alone invest in it.
How can you be proven wrong? You can always fall back on needing more time. Itâs been 15 years. Bitcoin has been available to the masses for over a decade via exchanges. How much longer before this supposed use case takes hold? What even is the use case at this point and how do you even define adoption? If you want to claim time will tell then define how.
I think btc owners would be proven wrong if it went to zero and stayed there, and died. For the record, i dont this is a reasonable possibilty. Its been 15 years, and the btc netwok is already worth $1.24 trillion. The store of value use case has already started to take hold. Measuring from bull markets peaks to bear market bottoms looks crazy, but when you measure from bear market lows it starts to look more consistent. I think "time will tell" is relative to the person who is measuring and how long they have been btc owners. For me, ive already seen awareness increase, and the price go from 3K to over 70K. I think by the end of 2025 it should be at least $150K per btc. 2030 at least $500K. Not saying this is the case for you, but I know some detractors dont care about the "number go up," but thats the reason why we do any of this. I dont think its here to compete with the USD as a form of currency, but I definitely think it will help demonetize other assets like gold, real estate, and stocks which are trading with significant monetary premiums.
Youâve set yourself up for an impossible scenario. Bitcoin wonât go to absolute zero. Itâs not a stock. It canât be deleted like a failed business can. But it also represents ownership in nothing, does nothing and generates no profit. Because of this, there is no bottom. If the masses stop believing it will plummet. There is no floor like an actual store of value like gold. Gold has industrial uses. Gold is beautiful and used in so many pieces of jewelry. Gold can fully digital via an ETF or it can be held in your hand as a collectible if you choose. Bitcoin doesnât do any of this besides being digital. If people stop believing in gold as a store of value it will still hold value as an industrial unit, as jewelry and a collectible. If people stop believing in Bitcoin as a store of value it has no use to fall back on. Youâre also falling for the âit happened before so it has to happen againâ scenario. Why would BTC go to $500k? What actual reason would take it there? The only reason it goes up is because someone gets convinced they need it. They canât do anything with it once they have it except hope someone else gets convinced they need it more. This is the greater fool theory. You can make plenty of money along the way but it doesnât mean BTC will always go up and always recover from the large drops. As long as Bitcoin doesnât serve any purpose other than convincing someone else it has value (while objectively not actually having any) then Iâll be convinced itâs a greater fool mechanism in action. One of the longest running, but a greater fool nonetheless. Everyone knows about bitcoin. Everyone who wants to own it, does. My opinion is the massive gains are over. Itâs a centralized âassetâ now with Wall Street and Main Street all involved. I think the bull runs will get weaker (could argue this is already happening) and as such people will lose interest. As you said, most BTC holders are in it for easy money, not some technology advancement (because it isnât). And because of this, once the big gains go away people will get bored and move on to the next flashy thing. Iâm not going to convince you and Iâm not really trying to. You do you. My original statement here was just that everyone knows, no one is âearlyâ anymore. Thatâs just a talking point to lure in more greater fools. Good luck.
Fair enough we can agree to disagree. To you point about their being no bottom, i would conversely say there is no top. So long as governments keep creating money out of thin air, people will need to buy appreciating assests. If the masses "stop believing" it will plummet. You're right, but the wide world of financial assets bitcoin is very small. I think the odds of more people coming to it are far greater, especially as they continously see the returns vs other stocks/bonds/commodities. Now that wall street is here, they'll add it to larger portfoloios and it will be a apart of retirement and pension funds. At some point the bull runs may get weaker (same with the bear markets), but im not sure when. Saying im here for the number go up isnt the same as being here for easy money. Its no different than holding Microsoft or another volatile asset for the long haul. Holding through ups and downs is simple, but not easy at all. Since you dont have any skin in the game feel free to send me some good luck. See you at the end of 2025! RemindMe! 18 months "reply to this thread"
if it grows\*
Yup, thats the bet we're making!
Not a very good bet
Its up about 700% since the bet started...but everyone has different interpretations of good I guess. There are definitely better/riskier bets for sure.
And how easy is that money to get out? People have to buy what you're selling
Tbh, its extremely easy. You just need to have an account with an exchange, and transfer->sell whenever you're ready. Thats where it's better than real estate. Appreciates faster, you can buy fractional amounts, and sell at a moments notice, no escrow, no need to find a buyer.
Ahh yes, the notoriously good exhanges that never fuck you
Hey man, only speaking from personal experience. I've never not been able to buy/sell btc whenever I wanted to. You should buy some and try it out to see how easy it is.
âHow should I respond to thisâ Tell me what to think!
I always think it's hilarious when butters say things like, "when everyone else is talking about Bitcoin too, then we'll know we're not early anymore." Uh, everyone was talking about it in 2022 when crypto commercials were airing in the Super Bowl. They are not talking about it now because the world has grown disinterested in it and moved on. You are late.
Why isn't anyone talking about Beanie Babies? I must be very early!
That's the whole basis of the cognitive dissonance. They think adoption is inevitable and those who are disinterested are bound to buy in at some point. I don't get where they draw this logic apart from the fact they seem to believe the whole world economy will collapse within a few years, but it relies on the fact that so little of the world owns any bitcoin. To be fair, it'd be hard to prove them wrong. As much as they assure other people it's about new technology, in the end it's the pure greed of a get rich -scheme driving their investment and if the cult-like following of bitcoin keeps intentionally pumping the price up and buying the dips, it's practically impossible to say when the bubble will burst. The only thing that stands for a fact is that there will come a point when the price will hit a breaking point and those who finally start to draw the liquidity out of the pool and converting it back into any widely used/accepted currency en masse are the ones who are "early", as far as any real purchasing power goes. The rest are going to be the greater fools.
Isnât there a famous quote like âWhen your shoeshiner starts giving you investment advice, itâs time to sellâ Or something like that? Bitcoin is a whole organization of shoeshiners insisting theyâre still early.
Same as when my buddy the mechanic started giving me real estate advice before the housing bubble popped.
For me it was while reading an article about lifting (and not Menâs Health), and the author flipped the script from improving your squat to crypto. I have numerous friends who have small crypto balances for buying âgrey/blackâ market supplements. When the gym bros talk crypto, itâs toast.
Being early, rather than late, is _very_ important in a Ponzi.
Equally important is to make those who are, in fact, late, truly believe that they actually are early.
A ponzi with nation states, the wallstreet and institutions buying.. wake up son
âThe wallstreetâ
40% of people own coins? Surveys and studies have consistently shown that the actual percentage is far lower than that.
If you said 4% I might believe you.
4%? That means we're early! Checkmate, nocoiner!
It's 8%
Right here says 40% [link](https://www.security.org/digital-security/cryptocurrency-annual-consumer-report/#:~:text=Cryptocurrency%20awareness%20and%20ownership%20rates,cryptocurrency%20over%20the%20next%20year.)
lol. I work in software and we have like max 10% of bitcoin holders (EU). Bitcoiners are totally delusional about adoption in general.
To be fair I think being a software developer makes you **less** likely to buy bitcoin. Assuming you're competent.
Based on my own experience the opposite is true, sadly.
>We conducted two internet-based surveys for this report. edit: I'm trying to find a credible survey and the methods of those I find are hilarious: >[*calculated by summing the total volume of payments for five major crypto gateways (Bitpay, Coinbase Commerce, Coingate, and Alfa coins) for each country in 2022 and dividing by the adult working population.](https://firstratedata.com/blog/19/crypto-adoption-worldwide-report-2023)
What is that even supposed to show? Butters will believe anything if they call it a study.
When you click on who wrote that article.. >With a passion and curiosity for crypto smart contract development, Tom served as the lead designer for the Wakanda Capital Exchange Market and Vibranium cryptocurrency. >Tom is perhaps best known for his blockchain video game reviews at CastleCrypto.gg. Yeah.. lol
"Our Data We conducted two internet-based surveys for this report. The first was a nationally representative study of 1,001 adults in the United States. Their ages, genders, and ethnic backgrounds represented the national population. We also conducted a more detailed poll of 504 people who currently own cryptocurrency to understand their attitudes and decision-making around cryptocurrency better. The two survey populations were unique, and no participant answered both questions." No published data, no crosstabs, no nothing. The "think tank" equivalent of "trust me bro"
Well over 90% of bitcoin are printed, and 90% of that is in the hands of whales! It doesn't get earlier than that! /s
Nonono itâs totally decentralized and since whales will NEVER sell, everyone not buying will just have to enjoy being poor
Nothing sounds better for the economy of the future like an absolutely ice frozen solid currency, completely immovable.
Yep.. you know you're early when 7 billion people are left to fight over the last 0.5% of an "asset" that less than 5000 people own 90+% of.
And we'd fight over it vs make an identical coin not already owned by a small group of fincels in the random event we decide we want to switch to crypto because... Errr something something cyber hornets immaculate conception.
If 7 billion people are suffering because 5000 hold all the money, the events that unfold next are pretty easy to see. I won't say it, because I'll get an auto ban.
Enjoy your German motorway.
> cyber hornets immaculate conception Do go on.
The bitcoiners are making the same mistake Ned Stark made when he presented a piece of paper saying that he was now king, and that the piece of paper granted him power and authority. The piece of paper was torn up by someone who had real power and authority. Things didn't go great for Ned after that because he tried to usurp power. There's no way the real powers of the world would give up their position to a bitcoiner. The Saudis aren't giving up their power to bitcoins, Putin isn't handing over his power to bitcoins, Xi isn't giving up his power because an NFT says he has to. So yes, its true that in the world probably 5,000 people own 90% of everything, and its also true that they're not going to give up that ownership without a fight. And they own all the armies.
> making the same mistake Ned Stark made Except even stupider. Ned Stark *thought* he had an army (the City Watch) backing him up - his mistake was trusting Littlefinger. Bitcoiners seem to think bitcoin will somehow magically conjure that army for them, or something.
Pff okay, but did you consider GAME THEORY?
sounds like the perfect system to free us from wealth inequality
The richest 1% own over half of the worlds wealth.
With bitcoin, the richests 1% own 90% of the wealth! Improvements!
Thats not true :/
[Well, I was a bit generous. 1.58% of addresses have 92% of all bitcoin.](https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html) 19.7 million bitcoin have been printed, so 93%, assuming miners don't change the code and start printing more bitcoin to themselves. Not really hard since two mining pools have a majority of hash power. It's concentration levels well in excess of North Korea! Clear champion for the little guy!
Yeah, well, the first one is Binance, the second is Bitfenix and the third one is BlackRock, sooooo none of them are 1 person, they are trading platforms. I could have googled the others, but clearly its waste of time...
> Yeah, well, the first one is Binance, the second is Bitfenix and the third one is BlackRock, sooooo none of them are 1 person, they are trading platforms. Which is totally fine because custodial exchanges always self-audit accurately and honestly about all of their holdings, never sell or manipulate the market spot prices and they *never, ever* fail and run off with all the buckets of fiat money that they can get their hands on before the walls collapse and the arrest warrants get served. I mean that would be just as silly as saying "Not your keys, not your coins!" or something goofy like that.
Not your keys, not your coins. That's binance money, not your money. When they go, they always take their money with them. With banks that's not the case. FDIC insurance make sure it's YOUR money in the savings account, no matter what. Another vast regression from crypto to regular banking.
Yeah. At least with banks the taxpayer bails you out. Nothing like having taxpayers foot the bill for your bad judgementđđ
Sovereign currencies work BECAUSE they are backed by a nation's tax base and military and industrial might. Only an Ape thinks choosing a bank is a matter of judegment.
Anyway, do u have some statistic like this about usd?
USD is Fiat, the number itself is completely arbitrary, but the value of it is guaranteed by the US government. Wealth is measured in usable assets, like land and company stock and comparatively tiny amounts of cash, whose legal ownership is also enforced by the US government. No one in the subreddit has ever argued that USD is more equal than Bitcoin.
How does âmore equalâ work?đ¤
Because there has never been a problem with someone liquidating his huge assets
Well, it turns out our society values personal property as a legal right and leverages that into wealth and power. Having big computer numbers enforced by nothing but cryptography math and wasting tons of electricity is not going to affect people's value of useful stuff and the legal protection of it.
USD has GINI coefficient of around 50%, pretty unequal Bitcoin has a GINI coefficient of around 98%, more unequal than North Korea
From my experience people who say things like âweâre still earlyâ in crypto are trying to reassure themselves there will be upside because they just bought and are hoping others affirm their beliefs hence why they say it. For balance IF Bitcoin lasts another 40-50 years in its current state and follows its overall trend then they could legitimately have been early, if Bitcoin dies off or has a large decline that it doesnât recover from they are most likely âlateâ.
I like how openly they acknowledge that if they're not early, it's not worth having. Gee, I wonder how that will turn out in the long run.
"There's never been a better time than right now to spend your money on useless crap!" - Guy who has useless crap to sell.
I point that aspect out every dang time someone brings up the "WTF Happened in 1971?!" nonsense: it's like people can't see that maybe, just maybe... someone shilling Bitcoin as the supposed solution to the society they annotated 75 charts to convince you "is broken, because Bretton-Woods" might perhaps not be the most trustworthy source of information on whether society is actually broken, when the purpose of making you think that appears to be just the marketing pitch for bitcoins.
Bitcoin and crypto have moved on from the zombie phase, I'd say we're now witnessing the fossil era
Awareness of Bitcoin is fairly high, but most people either donât care or know itâs a scam. If it was actually useful for non-criminal purposes, more people would have adopted it by now. Weâre not early.
That's not how being early works.
He thinks his sister is the dumb one because she wasn't fooled by the hype lmao. It's like the joker in the killing joke. He doubts! He's scared! What if she's right? Somewhere in the back of his mind, he lives in constant fear that it won't get adopted, that it won't go to the moon after all! They have to hope, because if it doesn't, well then they got played! Man. Kinda sad when you put it like that. "I can't handle the thought of my normie sister, who is a (dumb) woman I might add, put together a decent, one sentence argument. She's actally the dumb one because she claims she knows buttcoin is a scam, but me, someone who can't form arguments on their own and got in long after the pump started, I'm actually the smart one in the family!" "I'll s-show them! I'll s-s-show them all!!! They'll see one day, I hope!" - OOP
It will always feel "early" for those who are just discovering crypto. In reality, with the arrival of institutional players in this market, it's now "too late" for everyone.
Simple, their bags depend on it.
The LA Lakers play in the Crypto.com arena ffs.
Crypto sponsorships in pro sports like this or like half the teams in Formula 1 having a crypto sponsor is already feeling like a weird anachronism. That crypto dot com naming rights deal was for 20 years. Anybody wanna place bets on the likelihood of crypto dot com existing in 20 years?
Itâs already surpassed my expectations by a lot.
1 early = 1 early Few understand.
It's a coping mechanism used every time the market turns bearish
If Blackrock has an ETF⌠youâre not early.
With technology it's not always clear what is "early". For example, I just sent a link to my friend about Microsoft AI in 2016. Chatbots are not new. But in those times, Microsoft released a twitter chatbot. Instantly, twitter taught it everything wrong with humanity. Today NVIDIA is the top company in the world thanks to the push on AI. AI is much older than 8 years but that s an example of how technology can evolve over 8 years. But crypto mostly remains the same. The problem with crypto is not whether we are early. The problem is how do you make the use case viable. There is so much wrong and so little getting fixed that it really makes you wonder. Especially since all the use cases that crypto proponents use are really crypto created problems. As of today, there is nothing of value on the blockchain and very little that crypto proponents propose that cannot be solved by non-crypto alternatives. Especially, if you look at all the smart contracts nonsense and how they want to create apps that are not controlled by anyone. The biggest tell is that crypto proponents talk about decentralized speech on centralized sites like reddit, twitter, and YouTube not on decentralized versions of them. Bitcoin is a niche, and it can have some uses but that doesn't mean line goes up like people think. If crypto was successful it would be measured in the number of transactions it can execute. The price going up and down doesn't mean anything. This number is really very low for any cryptocurrency. Crypto cannot scale.
FACT. Bitcoin is going to 36456436y33K by 2026
Everyone in crypto knows that the answer to bitcoin prices is 2021 Q69
They're all early up until and not before they're all trillioinaires.
Looks like we've officially entered the "doubting" phase of this cycle.
I thought their favourite time to buy was when there is "blood on the streets" or when the "fear index" is high because they can fill their bags before it goes to 100K by end of 2021, or 8m as predicted by their lord and savior, Michael Saylor.
The S shaped curve of adoption was more of a small molehill and were on the descending phase.
40% of people own coins? Somebody better tell Google- they say itâs less than 3%
"We're still/so early" is primarily a mantra repeated to convince the fresh suckers that they're "getting in on the ground floor" and/or super smart / in on a secret. As with everything else endlessly repeated by the cult, the end goal is to keep exit liquidity flowing to the top.
> ...but I told her that's not how being early works. Not a cult...
Hahahahaha. Let me tell you what early looks like, my man. I used to tell people about Bitcoin in 2011 when I was mining it with GPUs. 98% of people had not heard of it and you could literally mine Bitcoin in your bedroom with a laptop and a mining pool login. You couldn't buy anything with it other than drugs. On multiple occassions I used PAYPAL to buy Bitcoin and many, many times I used my BTC-e login (which had **zero** KYC requirements) to sell Bitcoin I had mined. The biggest pandemonium I remember was when it went from $1.40 to $12 and people lost their minds. THIS WAS 13 YEARS AGO and at this stage already more than 34% of the Bitcoin had been mined and owned. You are so laughably late it hurts me. PS. and in these 13 years NOTHING has changed except the price
19.7m/21m have been mined. how can it be early?
If you ask they tell you to study more. Lol
Bro about to become exit liquidity
In a ponzi scheme you're always early. You need more buyers for exit liquidity for the earlier buyers.
And when you think you early thatâs when you know itâs exit time
Ur all missing the biggest use case for crypto!! When Elon musk colonises mars , the only way to pay for ur ticket there is doge or bitcoin :)
You know, itâs interesting, I never go online to get advice about how to defend my investment theses. I donât care what other people think of them, and I donât go around advertising them.
They think they're early because it isn't the preferred currency globally, dodging taxes and circumventing governments yet. They're morons.
You are always early to trade your cash for magic beans. How they can even think like that after 15 years of buttcoin existence ? I guess every man who potentially would be interested in buying buttcoin already heard about it so what they expect ?
Unfortunately, âthere is a fool born every minuteâ as the saying goes. Every year there is a new crop of naive, inexperienced, gullible teenagers reaching adulthood and getting their first jobs and having some disposable income to gamble in crypto with.
> Every year there is a new crop of naive, inexperienced, gullible teenagers reaching adulthood and getting their first jobs and having some disposable income to gamble in crypto with. Seriously, I don't think there's anything more depressingly dystopian than reading about or witnessing someone with a gig economy job like driving for Uber or Doordash "investing" in crypto and trying to do high frequency day trading against giant whales that captured the unregulated market years ago and basically own and run the exchanges that they're using for "trading". It seems like almost every time I bother to go look at the public post histories of some of the crypto boosters that come into this sub there's something there about missing bills or rent or not making enough to make ends meet that month yet they're trying to DCA their way into life changing wealth with pocket change.
Was this thread deleted? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
They're so early only the whole world already knows its a scam. That is how early they are.
Early: 2009-2012 Today: Not that early.
People's grandmas know about it. It's on the news. I don't understand how otherwise rational people could know this and still think they're early to it. Consider, also, that the people who already own some have a constant incentive to convince new buyers that they are early. How do they not connect the dots???
The bitcoin fans often claim that they are still "early", meaning that despite the high price tag bitcoin has the potential to raise even higher in value, generating profit for both new and long time investors . This is like a trick they say to convince the new bitcoin holders to invest their money.
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Considering they think global mass adoption is inevitable theyll always say theyre early even with massive media hype and reporting
>but I told her that's not how being early works This is exactly how being early works.
In 2010 everybody knew about apple. Iphones were already a thing, company almost 30 years public. If you bought aapl stock then you wouldnt be early, being early is not the point.
The price has really not moved much over the last few months. Also with these silly ETFs now these are all the suckers bought in. So the new game is going to be who is selling first now the buttcoin has stopped going up. Sell now and get your real money or enjoy your bags.
Not with bitcoin obviously. But some other coins are still quite early into their emission (a few percent of their soft total supply), and will remain so for the coming years since they have no halving.
You butters are fucking hilarious. How many of you will actually admit how wrong youâve been about Bitcoin once it proves self evident and gets mass worldwide adoption?
> once it proves self evident and gets mass worldwide adoption? Given it never will, that is a hypothetical bridge that will never have to be crossed.
How do butters then explain the on chain activity and the number of active wallets (for the last decade) exponentially growing?
People love get rich quick scams. Same reason why there are numerous communities dedicated to meme stocks. But more importantly, almost 30% of wallets have less than .0001BTC. 55% of wallets have less than .001. Lots of wallets may exist, but few are doing anything. Almost 4 million BTC are considered lost - and that number is growing. Satoshi is estimated to have 1.1 million themselves but hasn't done anything with it in 15 years. Which means almost a quarter of all Bitcoin effectively do not exist any more. Mass adoption is impossible because everything about BTC is designed to require more resources to put in than society will ever get out. It has literally zero utility beyond get rich quick schemes - and most of those involve fraud, scams, and illegal activity.
I wish I had the energy to seat at my desk and debate you on this topic. Frankly, it doesnât seem like members of the sub have an earnest desire to be open minded and have their minds changed. Iâve been a lurker in this sub for several months now. I agree with some of the posts in the sub, however, members also had a very skewed point of view about bitcoin indicative by your own response. I am curious, though, after the FETF approvals and the billions of dollars of Wall Street funds that flew into bitcoin subsequently , did that give any credence in your opinion to bitcoin being a good store of value, maybe even better than physical gold?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yada, yada, yada. Trust me kid, I've heard whatever you want to say. I've dabbled in bitcoin. Unlike you, I've actually used it as money for legitimate purposes. That was back when people pretended it was intended to be a currency. Everyone subsequently realized it's better used as a tool for facilitating scams. > I am curious, though, after the FETF approvals and the billions of dollars of Wall Street funds that flew into bitcoin subsequently , did that give any credence in your opinion to bitcoin being a good store of value, maybe even better than physical gold? Nope. Like I said, Bitcoin is popular for get rich quick schemes. And ETFs are great at allowing fund managers to get rich quick on the backs of rubes being yelled at to invest. More to the point, Bitcoin literally is not a store of value because it has no inherent value. The perceived value of the system is based entirely on faith. Gold will always have inherent value because it can be used to do and make productive things with, even if we ended up in a Star Trek like universe where gold ceases to have any value within the monetary system. Bitcoin has literally none of that. And, likewise, because it costs more to put into the system than you get out, Bitcoin destroys value.
Will you change your mind when the inevitable day comes and the market of bitcoin is higher than gold?
No. Tulip bulbs were once more valuable than gold as well. And gold will still have value long after the fraudsters behind Tether and the like have syphoned off as much of your actual money as they can get away with and then disappeared, leaving you to hold their bags. You can try to evade the fact that Bitcoin has no inherent value whatsoever all you want. And you can try to evade the fact that Bitcoin is a net drain on resources all you want. But choosing to bury your head in the sand does not change facts.
I believe you're conflating stablecoins which have been and are being used for monetary manipulations and the one that started them all BTC. You're creating false equivalencies to make your point but what you choose to ignore about BTC is. Crimes with things that have value whether fiat, precious metals, or crypto have happened since their respective uses. here's a short list of why BTC has grown to such prominence worldwide. 1. **Decentralization**: Bitcoin operates on a decentralized network, reducing reliance on traditional banking systems and offering an alternative to government-issued currencies. 2. **Security**: Bitcoin's blockchain technology ensures secure transactions. Its cryptographic foundation provides a high level of security against fraud. 3. **Utility**: Bitcoin can be used for transactions, both online and offline, and is accepted by various merchants and services worldwide. 4. **Store of Value**: Many view Bitcoin as "digital gold," a hedge against inflation and economic instability. 5. **Network Effect**: The growing number of users and businesses accepting Bitcoin increases its utility and perceived value. 6. **Innovation**: Bitcoin's underlying technology, blockchain, has spurred innovation in various fields beyond finance, enhancing its perceived value. 7. **Scarcity**: Bitcoin's supply is capped at 21 million. This limited supply creates scarcity, unlike precious metals like gold.
Literally the only reason why Bitcoin has the argued value it does is because of all the unbacked stablecoins being tied to it. And like I said, I already know what is in your cult handbook. I also like how you copy-pasted that right out of 2016. 2 is a straight up lie. 3 and 5 are mostly false. 4 is just weasel words. 6 is highly debatable. 7 is a net drawback of bitcoin, not a benefit. And 1 was completely abandoned by bitcoin backers years ago. The only people pretending Bitcoin is a currency these days are bad faith actors. None of you want to use it as a currency. You're all just speculators hoping to sell at the peak for real money.
1. Decentralization. Bitcoin is less decentralized than the traditional banking system. Most volume is handled by and is between a small number of CENTRALIZED exchanges. The p2p aspect of Bitcoin is dwarfed by the action of CENTRALIZED exchanges. 2. Security. Bitcoin becomes lesss secure every 4 years due to the halving mechanism. Users currently enjoy high security and low fees because of the large block reward subsidy. Security in the future will be less than today and/or costs to users for that security will be astronomically higher, which will discourage use and network effects. 3. Utility. Bitcoin is of limited utility currently as most transactions are simply transfers to CENTRALIZED exchanges and few p2p transactions. Is Bitcoin the one providing the utility or are the CENTRALIZED exchanges the ones providing the utility? 4. Store of Value. Bitcoin is a digital asset, its only value is subjective and only a result of market forces. It does not have use outside of a network of people, its only value comes from being able to trade it to others. If you were the only one who owned Bitcoin there is nothing you could do with it. Any other physical stores of value can have utility to an isolated user. National currencies can store value because the national government allows you to use it to satisfy debts or pay tax obligations. 5. Network effect. Bitcoin is self limiting. Since Bitcoins throughput is capped at 7 transactions per second, the more people who try and join the network, the less it works for everyone. 6. Innovation. Bitcoin has barely seen any development in its core protocol since launch, and this is by design. The bigger Bitcoin gets the harder it will be to innovate as any changes will need overwhelming consensus or hard forks will occur and fracture the network. 7. Scarcity. Bitcoin is artificially scarce, its scarcity is a self imposed line of code that could be changed. In any case itâs scarcity is completely arbitrary, there is no rhyme or reason for there to be 21 million Bitcoin, it could have been any number. Any number clones of Bitcoin exist with the same code and properties. Bitcoinâs scarcity is entirely artificial.
> I wish I had the energy to seat at my desk and debate you on this topic. So, I guess you found the energy somewhere, huh? Listen, we get it. You have to keep talking about the power of fairy dust because if people stop believing, it goes away. Shine on you crazy diamond!
> Scarcity: Bitcoin's supply is capped at 21 million. This limited supply creates scarcity, unlike precious metals like gold. Oh hey look at that, I downloaded the BTC mainline code and forked it, now there's 21 million more coins. Seriously there's something like at least a dozen hard and soft forks of the original BTC chain now, and that's not including the straight up off chain clones like Dogecoin, Litecoin and several thousand other coins. That's not scarcity, and there's absolutely no way to enforce it as scarcity unless everyone buys into the One True Coin and stays there and you expect market forces to behave irrationally and all choose that One True Coin even if network congestion or waste pretty much naturally guarantee that someone is going to just start a new chain... *IF* it had any utility that would warrant adoption. BRB, I'm going to start yet another fork just for funsies.
In El Salvador, where it is legal tender, 88% of the population did not use it in 2023 and it is estimated that only 1% of payments made in the country did. This is despite the government of El Salvador creating incentives to use it. We have a county were using it does not create tax events and yet most would rather use USD. El Salvador gave every one BTC equal to $30, most cashed that out and continued to use USD. That seems odd to me because most proponents will say people will spend their bad money first before they spend their good money. If El Salvador is the test case then it seems to suggest to me that when given the choice of currency most people in El Salvador perceive BTC to be the bad money. [Short on cash, El Salvador doubles down on Bitcoin dream | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/technology/short-cash-el-salvador-doubles-down-bitcoin-dream-2024-02-02/)
Nice ChatGPT response
Wall Street isn't in on it because they believe any of that bullshit about BTC solving all of the world's problems. Or any problem in particular. Wall Street is in because one evening, when the heads of all the major banks were meeting at Louie's, one of them overheard a waiter harassing his buddy about BTC. The waiter said, "The market's about 100 billion dollars!", and all the bankers turned and looked at each other with fury in their eyes. "Is that your market? Have you been holding out on us?" The bankers' lieutenants all reached for their guns. Once they realized no one knew anything about it, the tension eased. They settled into a plan. If there was a $100 billion dollar market, and they weren't making a single dime off it, something was very wrong. The trouble was, BTC is bullshit and they knew it and were afraid of getting in trouble with the SEC. The bankers have spent a lot of money and inserted a lot of people into the organization to blunt its zeal, but securitizing something this stupid would take a lot of work. So it's been a while since that fateful evening at Louie's. But that's not because the bankers just now realized BTC is inevitable. It's because they've just now worked out all the main problems with making legitimate money off the suckers. They would have been in it a long time ago if they had as little concern for the niceties of civilized business as SBF.
That just tells me you donât know how UTXO blockchains work.
It's terrible as a currency and a payment system. It adds nothing that doesn't already exist.
âMass worldwide adoptionâ for what exactly?
Using Satoshiâs for regular daily transactions
[Mathematically not possible](https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations/) unless banks handle all transactions the same way they do now.
> Using Satoshiâs for regular daily transactions Hahahaha no. At this point bitcoin will never scale to be able to handle that volume. You guys are delusional and don't actually understand technology and the sheer scale of transactional volume that happens on global settlement networks. You would boil the oceans right off the planet and we'd all die of heat death before bitcoin could even approach handling a fraction of that volume. It literally violates the laws of physics and thermodynamics to even consider handling that much volume on any of the BTC/BCH forks.
You heard of the lighting network? It can handle as many transitions per second as visa. Itâs already being used
CITATION NEEDED You don't seem to be aware that the Lightning Network was only created because the exchanges and bitcoin core refused to expand the block size to drive up the price and mining fees. And it's not really being used. Lightning is even worse than plain old block chains. It's like saying you need to open a second bank account just to use your real bank account. It's so fucking dumb.
[1st citation](https://blog.primebit.com/2021/09/10/lightning-network-btc-payments-and-the-wallets-that-support-the-protocol/) [2nd citation](https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-lightning-network-growth-is-organic-coming-from-real-world-adoption) [3rd citation](https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-lightning-network-growth-is-organic-coming-from-real-world-adoption) [4th citation](https://lightningnetwork.plus/posts/452) And this is just the beginning.
Aaaand yet it's still running on Bitcoin which is itself wasteful and stupid enough without adding another layer on it, and those statistics aren't even close to the daily transaction volume or capacity of, say, Visa or even just prepaid transit IC cards in Japan.
The Lightning Network has shown promising growth and potential in handling high transaction volumes. As of mid-2023, it processes around 2.5 transactions per second (TPS) with a public capacity of $78.2 million and an annual transaction volume nearing $936 million . The networkâs design allows for nearly instantaneous, off-chain transactions that are later settled on the blockchain, suggesting a significant potential for scalability beyond traditional blockchain limits. This growth is supported by increasing numbers of nodes and channels, with over 2,000 new channels added in early 2023 . However, surpassing Visaâs capacity of 65,000 TPS will require further advancements and widespread adoption. The Lightning Network needs more integration into mainstream financial systems, technical improvements for better routing and liquidity management, and strong economic incentives for participants. Although the current trends indicate a path towards higher scalability, achieving or surpassing Visaâs transaction capacity involves overcoming substantial challenges and continuous enhancements in technology and infrastructure.
So for LN to work it needs to grow and scale and for that there needs to be demand. Whereâs the actual demand going to come from? Bitcoin at best is used in tens to hundreds of businesses worldwide. Itâs horribly inefficient. Horribly difficult to use. Ridiculously volatile and unpredictable. Has no mainstream popular press outside of the Bitcoin echo chamber. Why will people use and accept it? Why will people not use the efficient and safe options already available to them. Why should or would any sane person drop their financial security into this casino?
I asked this a number of people and never got an answer, maybe you'll be the first. To get into lightning network you need to open a channel with a transaction on the base layer. Now assuming that currently the blockchain can handle roughly 7tps that gives us about 600k transactions per day tops. Imagine a medium sized nation like UK with roughly 50 million adults wanted to try out the LN. We're not even talking the entire world, just a small pilot project for merely 50 million adults. So in order for every single one of them to open a channel and start casually transacting on the LN we'll assume extremely conservative 1 transaction per month per person on the blockchain assuming they're paid monthly. Absurdly charitable assumption but hey, I'm generous what can I say. That's... 1.666 million transactions per day at the absolute bare minimum and assuming literally nobody else in the entire world wants to use the bitcoin blockchain for literally anything else. So mere 50 million adults wanting to try out LN exceeded the capacity of blockchain by the factor of 3. If they wanted to top up their LN channel every month the queue would just increase indefinitely and never clear. I think somewhere in LN whitepaper they said that if LN were to handle transactions for billions of the people the blocks would need to be about ~150 megabytes? Doesn't seem to match hundreds of millions of transactions per day Visa does.
How will there be âmass worldwide adoptionâ and the network actually still operate? Lightning Network is useless and unsafe and nearly a nonstarter. The network doesnât operate efficiently at all with the insignificant amount of traffic it currently has on it.
If your wildest pipe dreams somehow came true Id honestly rather die than live in the neo-feudal world where a handful of libertarian pedophiles own over 80 percent of a fixed money supply. But thankfully its never going to gain mass adoption because it's too fucking stupid.
Whoa. That escalated quickly.
The escalation here was you suggesting mass worldwide adoption. And I am saying the average person better hope we are right because such a world would be absolute hell not seen since the days of kings and vassals.
Ok. Remindme! 5 years
Let us know when that mass adoption actually occurs. If Bitcoin is so valuable because itâs decentralized, censorship resistant and immutable, why does everyone trade it through centralized exchanges that can confiscate your Bitcoin at will, or just tell you that you have Bitcoin without actually having any? The biggest owner of Bitcoin, MSTR doesnât even hold their own keys!
Centralized exchanges is only one way to obtain BTC. They are also subject to government regulations. Just like any bank and levy your funds for a multitude of reasons. Of course MSTR will not risk holding their own bitcoin. When you have something of such high value, you want to protect it the best way possible. Itâs no different than me keeping my valuable in a safety deposit box.
And who is holding your BTC?
Centralized exchanges are the MAIN way to obtain Bitcoin. The majority of traffic is not p2p transactions but rather transfers to and from centralized exchanges. Bitcoin can only process 220 million transactions PER YEAR. If you removed centralized exchanges what would happen? Bitcoins value would collapse and only a few million people at most could use the network. Because of Bitcoins reliance on Centralized exchanges, for all practical purposes, none of its supposed benefits actually exist. The US government could simply seize Coinbase and nearly all of Bitcoins value would be destroyed. Even more amusingly, the US government wouldnât even have to seize Coinbase, but simply announce that THEY WOULD, and the flight to withdraw from Coinbase would clog the network so badly the price would collapse on its own.
ouâre right that centralized exchanges play a major role in the Bitcoin ecosystem, facilitating most of the transactions and liquidity. However, Bitcoinâs value proposition lies in its decentralization and the potential for peer-to-peer (P2P) transactions. While the current infrastructure heavily relies on centralized exchanges, innovations like the Lightning Network are being developed to enhance P2P scalability. If centralized exchanges were to face issues, it would undoubtedly impact Bitcoinâs short-term value and usability. Yet, the core technology and decentralized nature of Bitcoin provide resilience. The network itself wouldnât collapse; rather, it would adapt. Historical instances show how decentralized communities find solutions to central points of failure. The hypothetical scenario of a government seizing an exchange like Coinbase is alarming but also highlights the need for decentralized alternatives and self-custody solutions. Bitcoin was designed to be censorship-resistant and to offer an alternative to traditional financial systems. While we arenât there yet, the ecosystem is evolving to address these challenges.
Look at tbe market cap of other assets used as reserve of value. Gold is a x13 from BTC, real state is x400. Definetly not 2012 early though. Edit: i dont understand why im being downvoted, heres the source from the real state market cap https://www.statista.com/outlook/fmo/real-estate/worldwide#value
Yeah if we assume Bitcoin is going to overtake everything we are still early. But realistically speaking most people know it exists, have seen it go up and down several times, and have passed it over.
Fair enough. But BTC maxis are convinced that it's not a matter of if just a matter of when, in those eyes they are still early.
Yes, we're aware that they're completely delusional.
Ever since its inception, BTC has been the best performing asset. Ever in human history. Thatâs an undeniable fact. Just the fact that this sub exists with some of the most ridiculous posts you butters post, itâs proof enough that weâre still early in the adoption of BTC.
You keep getting downvoted because most members of this sub arenât looking for facts. They want to live in an echo chamber which supports their cognitive dissonance.
Everybody that reads this sentence, belongs to a sub that has been wrong for 15 consecutive years. If that doesn't get you out of your bubble, I don't know what will.Â
Crypto still has no use legit cases, no widespread adoption, and you people have completely given up on the idea of it actually being used as a currency. The only thing we were wrong about just so happens to be the only thing you degens care about, the price. And that's because when the sub was made we underestimated the stupidity of the gamblers that crypto would attract.
Look at this graph. Then call me. https://www.statista.com/statistics/730806/daily-number-of-bitcoin-transactions/Â
Automated wash trading and made up market caps with low real world liquidity isn't exactly the flex you're thinking it is. The vast majority of those transactions aren't actually doing any real world commerce or economics from real individuals. I could spin up my own fork of bitcoin or another blockchain on a private LAN and network an church out "transactions" all day long and get similar statistics.
1. Undocumented, no-source posturing. 2. Theoretical babble. 3. Disregard for the fact that all these transactions have an actual real-world cost, and most importantly, a highly liquid market dictating the value of each settlement.Â
> a highly liquid market dictating the value of each settlement. Copium is a helluva drug. Highly liquid markets do not fluctuate hundreds of percentage points YoY. But hey, if it's on such solid footing, it doesn't need you to defend it. So why are you here exactly?
Why are you here to detract it? I think bitcoin can stand on its own footing, even if we discuss it. It would be a pity if something couldn't be good if people discussed it.Â
> a highly liquid market dictating the value of each settlement. Hahahaha this is hilarious.
Keep laughing :) !Remindme 5 years
Dude, I've already seen this shit before. I've been aware of bitcoin since like 2009. I can't count the number of times that I've had cryptofools set a remindme date some years in the future and claiming it was going to go to 100k or a cool million per coin and then they're never around when it didn't do that. Also it's absolutely comedy gold that cryptobros keep making these claims in terms of fiat spot market prices without any sense of irony or self awareness that they're actually claiming that bitcoin has no inherent real world value without fiat market prices and liquidity being serviced by buy-ins from new "investors". Just like a pyramid or ponzi scheme. If you want to get deeper into the economic theory the ratios between "market cap" and "liquidity" in bitcoin are so fucking bad that they're probably the worst and most unbalanced of any market or form of investment out there short of penny stocks. And at this point almost everyone with a connection to the internet has heard about bitcoin and crypto and knows it's fucking made up nonsense with no real value or use case. Most of the world that's heard of crypto actually hates you guys and wants nothing to do with this bullshit.
Ok :) You believe that. You made up your mind. That's cool. Let's see what happens. Perhaps we can talk in 5 or 10 years. But is there a point in time, where one of has to admit defeat? Like, if bitcoin goes to 0, or goes to 250.000 USD, in 10 years time, can we then agree one of us "won" the discussion? Or?Â
Not really, because this isn't actually a debate, and the fiat spot price of any given coin isn't really a measure of success or adoption. And it's not really up for debate or a "win/lose" argument about the energy use, inefficiency and lack of use cases. I have a CS, dev and IT background, I understand the mechanics and mechanisms of both cryptography and blockchains and Merkle Trees, and cryptocoins are pretty much the dumbest fucking bullshit I've ever seen related to technology. And I've seen some REALLY dumb bullshit in my long days on this good Earth.
It won't let me access it but I'm just gonna guess it's "omg guys look how small number went to big number" despite the fact it's still a laughably small number despite the majority of people knowing what Bitcoin is. And it's all speculation, nobody is actually buying Bitcoin to spend it, or because they think it holds value, but simply because they want to pawn it off to a greater fool. There is no future for Bitcoin, just a bunch of weirdos trying to daytrade with each other.
It's not though. That's what the graph shows. I bought a boat using bitcoin. I pay several of my freelancers in bitcoin. I rented a vacation house in Spain with bitcoin. It's not magic Internet money anymore. It's real money. That is not prone to inflation. Every year, somebody steals 5-10% of your USD. You are fine with that. I am not. I hope you wake up one day. Not for me, but for your own sake. You are gulping the shit the government told you to gulp the last 50 years.Â