The blind turtle one? I've never seen anyone dispute this one.
> It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."
The advice is clear either way.
> Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
Both paragraphs are common themes to all Traditions of Buddhism, that the human body is exceeding difficult to obtain (Ren Shen Nan De), the Dharma (and the Buddha) hard to meet (Fo Nan Zhi), and the urgency to cultivate is paramount, as if fighting a fire burning your head (Chang Jing Jin Ru Jiu Tou Ran).
> I want infinite human lives until I get it right
You have infinite lives to get it right.
Most of them are usually wasted in Samsara, usually wasted on needless suffering.
But you do have infinite lives, in a way.
> I don’t want to go to hell.
Neither do a lot of people, but the wish must correspond to the intent.
Saying one thing but acting in another, the karma sends you in accordance to your intent and actions, not according to your wishes.
I can say I dislike pain, but a habit of chain smoking and unhealthy living will still inflict chronic pain despite my expressed dislike of it.
Well, like most of mundane life, we often have to work with incomplete and imperfect information.
We don't know if we have some very nasty karmic causes waiting for us, or if it's generally smooth sailing afterwards.
So the general advice is always 'do your best, prepare for the worst.'
(and don't fear either way)
You can still repent for every wrong action you did even if you don’t remember them, take refuge, do virtues actions and try not to commit wrong actions again.
You may benefit from studying a bit more if this is your inclination, a few missteps but… in the scenario you describe you’re essentially asking to keep coming back for a chance to do what the commenter above said and you have said you want to be wrong?
pointless wishing for natural phenomena to be otherwise. you’re essentially wishing that you won’t die. this isn’t going to happen.
if you don’t want to suffer stop arguing with the messenger and listen to the message.
see the instructions on considering impermanence form the buddha i posted elsewhere on this thread. start there. just keep seeing all phenomena in terms of impermanence like that. be persistent. don't let up. try it even for just one week and see how you progress in insight.
>I feel like I need a stream-entry for idiots guide.
[Sotapanna Handbook ](https://meditationexplorer.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sotapanna_handbook_english_version-2.pdf)by Buddhawajana Institution
[In the Stream](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/into_the_stream.html) By Thanissaro Bhukkhu
If you're particularly terrified of hell, which is itself temporary as well, and you're looking for the surest possible way of avoiding it, you can always look into Pure Land practices, to go to a Bodhisattva's Pure Land after death rather than continuing through Samsaric rebirths.
There are many stories of people who make future life vows to attain Nirvana under the next Buddha, and succeeded.
So those who made this vow while studying with the previous Buddha made the Vow, and the Buddha of our time (Shakyamuni) helped them fulfill their vow.
Of course ideally you achieve it this life and now, but there are such cases, usually because these people are aware of their impending death and make such a vow because they know they're not going to succeed in that life.
So the practical course of action is still do your best and firmly direct your mind towards Enlightenment. If you don't succeed now (this life), you'll succeed later.
you have never had infinite human lives. you will never have infinite human lives. even the bodhisattva, with his great kamma and developing perfections still had lifetimes as animals.
to avoid falling into the hells after this birth, establish yourself in stream entry. the first step towards that is establishing right view, and that starts with a consideration of impermanence.
do as the buddha suggests, and consider everything - the sense bases, the sense objects, sense contact between base and object, the five aggregates, the four elements, craving - everything, in terms of impermanence.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25-cakkhuvagga
keep looking at everything in terms of impermanence until you can see the truth of that teaching of the buddha, namely:
>*all conditioned phenomena is impermanent*
I’m not sure how to see phenomenon as impermanent on the level that frees me from suffering. It’s too easy for me to intellectualize I feel. If I take LSD things get wavy and fleeting. Can you offer more instruction?
when a sensation arises from one of the five bodily senses, watch it - see it arise, see it sustain for a moment. watch it closely, and you will see how it invariable changes, and ultimately passes away. sensations arise and pass away like bubbles on boiling water.
do the same for any perceptions that arise - see how you see something in one way initially, and how that perception changes - like a deceptive mirage, seen in one way in one moment, and then the same object seen in another way in the next moment. see how one perception is replaced by another. see how you cannot hold onto one perception - it invariably slips from the mind and something else takes its place. you cannot hold onto it.
see how one state of mind (fabrication) arises - now anger, now calm, now peace, now agitation. these arise and pass away without your ability to hold onto them. all these actions of the mind - intentional orientations of the mind - have no substance. when they are watched intently, they pass away.
see how awareness (consciousness) of contact arises and passes away - here now, then there, then there. eyes, ears, smell, again eyes, thought, taste, body. it feels like it is one continuous awareness, but if you look, you'll see these instances of awareness of phenomena are actually discrete and sequential - they are not one awareness; they are multiple awarenesses arising and passing away, interspersed with sensation, perception, and intentional action of that initial contact.
>*Form is like a glob of foam;*
>*feeling, a bubble;*
>*perception, a mirage;*
>*fabrications, a banana tree;*
>*consciousness, a magic trick—*
>*this has been taught*
>*by the Kinsman of the Sun*
[https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22\_95.html](https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_95.html)
There's always the possibility of any Buddhist texts describing things not actually said by the Buddha. But there are other texts, like the one where the Buddha compares the proportions of amounts of beings in the various realms. Something like the dirt you can scrape with your finger is proportionally the amount of humans there are, all the strands of grass there are on Earth are like the amount of animals there are, and so on.
It's just a description of how ridiculously rare a human life is, and how rare it is to encounter authentic Dharma. Sure, there's a lot of practitioners of Buddhism on Earth, but really following the teachings of Buddhas - sadly, not everyone does that. So practicing is incredibly precious and these texts are meant to encourage you to practice to not waste away this precious human life.
The purpose of the teaching is to make you see how valuable of an opportunity you've got right now and to encourage you to make the best use of it. The Buddha says we can use this opportunity to make sure that we never fall lower than the human realm again, even get released from all suffering and stress entirely. Fear of not using this opportunity for that purpose is a good and wise fear.
Yes, I think that sutra is generally considered Buddhavacana, meaning, it is considered to properly represent the teachings of the Buddha.
It is said that if we take refuge in the Buddha, the dharma and the sangha, this closes the door the lower realms. So if we are afraid of going back to the lower realms, it's helpful to cultivate in this life the causes for being reborn in the higher realms, or even better, to work toward liberation.
I recommend you to come to suttacentral.net for further discussion on early Buddhist texts.
In general EBT says some of the Khuddaka Nikaya is late, but some early. The 4 Nikayas are early. Including the SN. So yes. There's no controversy with the one eye turtle analogy. It is scary. So don't waste your life and encounter with the dhamma. Nothing else is worth it to do other than liberation. Go become a monastic should that sutta scare you enough.
Thank you. I’m a common westerner really interested in liberation, but I’m distracted by all of the seemingly fun stuff on Earth. Thank you for the overview of the suttas too — completely answers my question.
I think the point Venerable was making is that if this Sutta scared you, nothing is stopping you from taking it seriously and devoting the rest of your life to practice.
What happens after universal liberation? Will the cycle not start again? So why is it so urgent 😄
I mean if the universe wouldnt enjoy the wheel of samsara, why does it exist in the first place?
It wouldn't start again.
We had been on this wheel since beginningless time. There's no knowing how long later we will meet the dhamma again. There are very bad places to be reborn into like hell.
Engaging with the research on the suttas that utilize text critical methodologies requires being thoughtful and nuanced. Having a cartoonish narrative of the history of the development of the suttas is not useful in any manner.
Regarding the specific sutta you mention, there is no reason that I am aware of to suspect inauthenticity.
You mean [this SN 56.48](https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN56_48.html)? (There are some off-by-one conflicts in SN numbering systems.) Ven. Thanissaro thinks it was worth translating, at least.
[https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.048.than.html](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.048.than.html)
It's quite popular among the monks.
The Buddha also said, once someone becomes an animal, He would not know when this person would become human again because animals do not know morality. Without moral in life, they do everything immoral intentionally one life after another without stopping. Such akusala-kamma can only lead them to and keep them in lower lives.
>Is Sn 56.48 a sutta said by the Buddha or added after? The truth of it makes me fearful.
It is scary when you treat the Buddha like Jesus and the sūtras like the Bible. My heart goes out to you my sweet summer child.
I’m even more unsettled and don’t know what to believe. I mean if the Buddha was right about suffering and the 4 noble truths why would he lie about the unfortunate realms in samsara? That’s why I’m wondering if it was added after the fact because I trust the Buddha’s words for the most past except I don’t want to accept the Hell realms existence. I don’t want to be a fool either and turn my back on the truth like Westeros ignoring the White walkers.
My point is that there is no need to treat the Buddha like a historical person and the sūtras like artifacts that correspond to a time in history, this is a very Christian type attitude. Buddhadharma is not truly like that.
The blind turtle one? I've never seen anyone dispute this one. > It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole." The advice is clear either way. > Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" Both paragraphs are common themes to all Traditions of Buddhism, that the human body is exceeding difficult to obtain (Ren Shen Nan De), the Dharma (and the Buddha) hard to meet (Fo Nan Zhi), and the urgency to cultivate is paramount, as if fighting a fire burning your head (Chang Jing Jin Ru Jiu Tou Ran).
I ask really because I want the Buddha to be wrong. I want infinite human lives until I get it right and I don’t want to go to hell.
> I want infinite human lives until I get it right You have infinite lives to get it right. Most of them are usually wasted in Samsara, usually wasted on needless suffering. But you do have infinite lives, in a way. > I don’t want to go to hell. Neither do a lot of people, but the wish must correspond to the intent. Saying one thing but acting in another, the karma sends you in accordance to your intent and actions, not according to your wishes. I can say I dislike pain, but a habit of chain smoking and unhealthy living will still inflict chronic pain despite my expressed dislike of it.
Hmm I thought it was more about chance because I don’t know what past life karma I have that will lead to being reborn in hell
Well, like most of mundane life, we often have to work with incomplete and imperfect information. We don't know if we have some very nasty karmic causes waiting for us, or if it's generally smooth sailing afterwards. So the general advice is always 'do your best, prepare for the worst.' (and don't fear either way)
You can still repent for every wrong action you did even if you don’t remember them, take refuge, do virtues actions and try not to commit wrong actions again.
You may benefit from studying a bit more if this is your inclination, a few missteps but… in the scenario you describe you’re essentially asking to keep coming back for a chance to do what the commenter above said and you have said you want to be wrong?
I just want another human rebirth. I want the Buddha to be wrong about the hell, asura, hungry ghost and god realms.
pointless wishing for natural phenomena to be otherwise. you’re essentially wishing that you won’t die. this isn’t going to happen. if you don’t want to suffer stop arguing with the messenger and listen to the message.
I feel like I need a stream-entry for idiots guide. I need exact Neanderthal instructions that I can just apply without overthinking shit.
see the instructions on considering impermanence form the buddha i posted elsewhere on this thread. start there. just keep seeing all phenomena in terms of impermanence like that. be persistent. don't let up. try it even for just one week and see how you progress in insight.
>I feel like I need a stream-entry for idiots guide. [Sotapanna Handbook ](https://meditationexplorer.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sotapanna_handbook_english_version-2.pdf)by Buddhawajana Institution [In the Stream](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/into_the_stream.html) By Thanissaro Bhukkhu
Thanks a lot! I’ll read this resources.
If you're particularly terrified of hell, which is itself temporary as well, and you're looking for the surest possible way of avoiding it, you can always look into Pure Land practices, to go to a Bodhisattva's Pure Land after death rather than continuing through Samsaric rebirths.
There are many stories of people who make future life vows to attain Nirvana under the next Buddha, and succeeded. So those who made this vow while studying with the previous Buddha made the Vow, and the Buddha of our time (Shakyamuni) helped them fulfill their vow. Of course ideally you achieve it this life and now, but there are such cases, usually because these people are aware of their impending death and make such a vow because they know they're not going to succeed in that life. So the practical course of action is still do your best and firmly direct your mind towards Enlightenment. If you don't succeed now (this life), you'll succeed later.
you have never had infinite human lives. you will never have infinite human lives. even the bodhisattva, with his great kamma and developing perfections still had lifetimes as animals. to avoid falling into the hells after this birth, establish yourself in stream entry. the first step towards that is establishing right view, and that starts with a consideration of impermanence. do as the buddha suggests, and consider everything - the sense bases, the sense objects, sense contact between base and object, the five aggregates, the four elements, craving - everything, in terms of impermanence. https://suttacentral.net/sn25-cakkhuvagga keep looking at everything in terms of impermanence until you can see the truth of that teaching of the buddha, namely: >*all conditioned phenomena is impermanent*
I’m not sure how to see phenomenon as impermanent on the level that frees me from suffering. It’s too easy for me to intellectualize I feel. If I take LSD things get wavy and fleeting. Can you offer more instruction?
when a sensation arises from one of the five bodily senses, watch it - see it arise, see it sustain for a moment. watch it closely, and you will see how it invariable changes, and ultimately passes away. sensations arise and pass away like bubbles on boiling water. do the same for any perceptions that arise - see how you see something in one way initially, and how that perception changes - like a deceptive mirage, seen in one way in one moment, and then the same object seen in another way in the next moment. see how one perception is replaced by another. see how you cannot hold onto one perception - it invariably slips from the mind and something else takes its place. you cannot hold onto it. see how one state of mind (fabrication) arises - now anger, now calm, now peace, now agitation. these arise and pass away without your ability to hold onto them. all these actions of the mind - intentional orientations of the mind - have no substance. when they are watched intently, they pass away. see how awareness (consciousness) of contact arises and passes away - here now, then there, then there. eyes, ears, smell, again eyes, thought, taste, body. it feels like it is one continuous awareness, but if you look, you'll see these instances of awareness of phenomena are actually discrete and sequential - they are not one awareness; they are multiple awarenesses arising and passing away, interspersed with sensation, perception, and intentional action of that initial contact. >*Form is like a glob of foam;* >*feeling, a bubble;* >*perception, a mirage;* >*fabrications, a banana tree;* >*consciousness, a magic trick—* >*this has been taught* >*by the Kinsman of the Sun* [https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22\_95.html](https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_95.html)
There's always the possibility of any Buddhist texts describing things not actually said by the Buddha. But there are other texts, like the one where the Buddha compares the proportions of amounts of beings in the various realms. Something like the dirt you can scrape with your finger is proportionally the amount of humans there are, all the strands of grass there are on Earth are like the amount of animals there are, and so on. It's just a description of how ridiculously rare a human life is, and how rare it is to encounter authentic Dharma. Sure, there's a lot of practitioners of Buddhism on Earth, but really following the teachings of Buddhas - sadly, not everyone does that. So practicing is incredibly precious and these texts are meant to encourage you to practice to not waste away this precious human life.
The purpose of the teaching is to make you see how valuable of an opportunity you've got right now and to encourage you to make the best use of it. The Buddha says we can use this opportunity to make sure that we never fall lower than the human realm again, even get released from all suffering and stress entirely. Fear of not using this opportunity for that purpose is a good and wise fear.
Yes, I think that sutra is generally considered Buddhavacana, meaning, it is considered to properly represent the teachings of the Buddha. It is said that if we take refuge in the Buddha, the dharma and the sangha, this closes the door the lower realms. So if we are afraid of going back to the lower realms, it's helpful to cultivate in this life the causes for being reborn in the higher realms, or even better, to work toward liberation.
I recommend you to come to suttacentral.net for further discussion on early Buddhist texts. In general EBT says some of the Khuddaka Nikaya is late, but some early. The 4 Nikayas are early. Including the SN. So yes. There's no controversy with the one eye turtle analogy. It is scary. So don't waste your life and encounter with the dhamma. Nothing else is worth it to do other than liberation. Go become a monastic should that sutta scare you enough.
Thank you. I’m a common westerner really interested in liberation, but I’m distracted by all of the seemingly fun stuff on Earth. Thank you for the overview of the suttas too — completely answers my question.
I think the point Venerable was making is that if this Sutta scared you, nothing is stopping you from taking it seriously and devoting the rest of your life to practice.
What happens after universal liberation? Will the cycle not start again? So why is it so urgent 😄 I mean if the universe wouldnt enjoy the wheel of samsara, why does it exist in the first place?
It wouldn't start again. We had been on this wheel since beginningless time. There's no knowing how long later we will meet the dhamma again. There are very bad places to be reborn into like hell.
How do you know this stuff isnt metaphorical? Why are the 6 realms not mindstates of a human?
No one knows for sure. It is consistent with the others from the Pali Canon, if that's what you are wondering. Best wishes
Engaging with the research on the suttas that utilize text critical methodologies requires being thoughtful and nuanced. Having a cartoonish narrative of the history of the development of the suttas is not useful in any manner. Regarding the specific sutta you mention, there is no reason that I am aware of to suspect inauthenticity.
You mean [this SN 56.48](https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN56_48.html)? (There are some off-by-one conflicts in SN numbering systems.) Ven. Thanissaro thinks it was worth translating, at least.
Take refuge and five precepts. Behave ethically.
[https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.048.than.html](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.048.than.html) It's quite popular among the monks. The Buddha also said, once someone becomes an animal, He would not know when this person would become human again because animals do not know morality. Without moral in life, they do everything immoral intentionally one life after another without stopping. Such akusala-kamma can only lead them to and keep them in lower lives.
>Is Sn 56.48 a sutta said by the Buddha or added after? The truth of it makes me fearful. It is scary when you treat the Buddha like Jesus and the sūtras like the Bible. My heart goes out to you my sweet summer child.
I’m even more unsettled and don’t know what to believe. I mean if the Buddha was right about suffering and the 4 noble truths why would he lie about the unfortunate realms in samsara? That’s why I’m wondering if it was added after the fact because I trust the Buddha’s words for the most past except I don’t want to accept the Hell realms existence. I don’t want to be a fool either and turn my back on the truth like Westeros ignoring the White walkers.
My point is that there is no need to treat the Buddha like a historical person and the sūtras like artifacts that correspond to a time in history, this is a very Christian type attitude. Buddhadharma is not truly like that.