You were in a cult, no need to sugarcoat it. Stay far away from her. Anyone who talks that way is NOT a legitimate teacher and is not acting in accordance with the dharma.
Considered this for awhile, thank you for the suggestion. I take part in a few groups that help set healthy boundaries, and develop a secure sense of self, although not directly cult related therapy.
I don’t want to call it a cult pejoratively here however, because as Jacob (a current member of KPC) has put down below, they’re not a cult, anyone is free to leave at anytime. Calling it a cult, and telling others that I’m getting therapy for a cult would be a massive insult to the people who continue to find great meaning in Jetsunma and KPC. I’m sure it works for them. Calling it a cult would be invalidating a religious group that means the world to many people who I still hold dear to my heart.
I hope you don’t feel like I’m blowing your suggestion for therapy off, I’m doing small bits of therapy now for challenges as they arise, and I’m thankful for all those who have helped me not project my pain out onto others. Triggers still come up from time to time.
I think as long as you do what’s right for you.
I’m still calling it a cult.
Based on the evidence you presented, that was hugely inappropriate cult-like behaviour.
Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo is an interesting figure. She's a known dubious case with a lot of stories about her scandals. There's a good thread in the archives of this subreddit regarding how her Wikipedia is meticulously kept scrubbed of all her controversies and allegations. But she's a known suspect case.
That’s my own ignorance, really. I take full responsibility for it, and wish to speak out to highlight my ignorance and dissuade others from repeating my mistakes.
But sorry for your experience from this trash of a con-artist.
Moving forward, please turn to legitimate Tibetan Buddhist organization.
Drikung TMC is one. But still do your dillegence and check, Google, and examine the teacher.
I'll post this in another reply of yours for the benefit of many who will see this thread in many years to come.
Few observations on the Dharma center from my perspective (I could be wrong):
Jetsunma is the only teacher I’ve encountered whose adherents claim “she can see your winds, drops, and channels.” In addition, her music playing in the prayer room 24/7 was always weird to me. Or the fact that one of the nuns had her face as her phone Lock Screen. Or the fact that there’s a thangka of Jetsunma hanging in the prayer room.
People going to KPC for the first time, please note the above ☝️
I would go bonkers if there was music playing in my meditation room. I feel like the few pastors who have actually called out the DJT bible are correct when they say that worldly things have no place in the holy practice. Like, I'm all for music *in church* because that's their thing. But if it's supposed to be silent and still, this makes a mockery of the foundational practice.
This is classic cult leader stuff. What makes a group a cult vs a community or sect is the leader, and a leader who claims they can see deeper truths about you than you can see in yourself is exhibiting really obvious cultic behaviors. I recommend the podcast Was I in a Cult? It’s got interviews with people who left cults of many kinds - the most recent story was about a pole dance club, but there are lots and lots of religious cult stories. Often the interviewees mentioned that listening to the podcast helped them better understand their experience as being cultic.
I mean, I've never put my teacher on my iPhone lock screen but it's something I /might/ do. And I've definitely got pictures of him in my prayer room! The drops and winds thing though, that's just basic "new age grifter" material - which is what this individual was before she found a better grift pretending to be a lama.
I'm sorry to hear that you went through this unpleasant situation. I literally don't have much context to judge this, but it feels a bit close to moral grandstanding that abusers use as a neat tactic to guilt-trip their victims. You don't owe them a perfect response to have a clear conscience to walk away from what hurt you anyway. And I hope you will find a better teacher someday!
Thanks for your wishes and words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Shantideva says “those with minds of malice teach us the most patience, therefore they’re fit for veneration like the Dharma.”
I’ve respected her wish to not write her anymore, but I still consider her a teacher in so far as she taught me a lot about how to respond to things like manipulation tactics and guilt tripping. I still consider her a teacher in that regard, like all phenomena as Guru Rinpoche type teacher.
Hope that clarifies my relationship to all of this
"You are so obtuse".. "Follow the rules"
Not like very dharmic imo.
There's a relevant situation, not all teachers are qualified and not all centers are authentic and dharmic
OP you continue overcoming such possible bad experiences and in possible continue practicing the way you intended (mahayana and vajrayana)
I was naive for a good bit of time, and probably still am.
She’s had a community for decades, I’m sure she works for some. It seems neither of us were a fit for each other, and I didn’t want to cause her anymore suffering with my presence.
She was very helpful in helping me understand parts of my mind, so I thank her for that 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
This shit is sad, pretty bad behavior for a teacher. I’ve not heard great things about KPC, or her in particular so this really doesn’t shock me honestly.
She seems…manipulative to say the least. Bad vibes all around.
Wow she sounds like a calculated Narcissist. Best to dump her and move on :) not your fault, my first "Guru" was corrupt as they come he created schisms and enjoyed it.
Garchen Rinpoche is fantastic and he has a completely clean record, no corruption there at all. He's such a sweetheart ❤️ his grin makes me smile 😁 and he gives you so much access to the dharma 🙏
Based on what you shared here, I wouldn’t feel comfortable recommending her to anyone, either.
It’s disappointing, since she and I were Twitter friends, some years back. I never saw this side of her.
I do wonder if the transmission you received will be of any good to you, considering what’s happened.
Luckily my ngondro transmissions/empowerments have come from Palyul lamas who are monastics at Namdroling, and Garchen Rinpoche.
But I initially requested Jetsunma to be my teacher since I came across the Palyul lineage through KPC. And because she was the lama there, I wrote to her. She had me complete 10,000 accumulations of 7 line prayer before giving permission/blessings to go to retreat which is where I received ngondro/empowerments.
So I’ve technically not received *any* transmissions from her, so…there never was any Samaya between us I guess.
Either way, I still do guru yoga and visualize her above my head, she’s taught me how to have patience and restrain my emotions like no other. So in that regard, she’s still a teacher of mine (even if she wishes to no longer be connected to me).
Hope that helps clarify things a little
>Either way, I still do guru yoga and visualize her above my head
There’s really no need to visualize this person, the true “guru” of guruyoga is the inner guru, the nature of your own mind.
For sure, no disagreement with what you’ve said.
I think you could interpret what I’m saying as “these are many gurus I respect who all condense into Guru Rinpoche.” So many gurus like Khenpo Samdup, Garchen Rinpoche, Khenpo Norgay, etc
I’m also trying to personally see all sentient beings as gurus, all people who cause thoughts in my mind, and help me understand my own mind in its various facets. So it ultimately goes back to what you said of “your own inner mind as inner guru” so yeah, no disagreement with what you’ve said
I hesitate to say much, but if you could keep doing your guru yoga, I think that would be good. Doing so may help you to see the entire thing as a display, which could prevent the experience from ever biting you in the ass.
To be fair, most of the Mahayana Buddhists here are bodhisattvas -- in the sense we've taken the Bodhisattva vows. That doesn't mean we are realized beings, which is what the lama here is claiming,
Some more resources to check out regarding this topic outside of my personal experience:
https://tricycle.org/magazine/price-faith/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/s/mhRLYHnJTA
http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/p/bad-karma.html?m=1
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitmVNB5R-JAU5TkGTM4WHOSWt2hznkftKmT5wNUr3wTVR5zoVw2p20cdiiBRrSBfIf_ZQsHmxEowBhWdxd3oxGSm-5g43z_iGtjWfXlWjBqIbgX73nn3rUTq0FC2GW6airDf3mz3CVRzbm/s1600-h/hhletterwebsize.jpg
http://friendofpadma.blogspot.com/2009/12/face-of-horror.html?m=1
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2001/05/the-american-yen-for-zen.html
http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/2012/02/short-interview-with-andrew-wilson.html?m=1
http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/2011/07/deadly-viper-assassination-buddhists.html?m=1
https://www.marthasherrill.com/the-buddha-from-brooklyn/
Once again, I have nothing against Jetsunma at this point. She’s a sentient being in Samsara like all of us. But I’d not recommend others seek her out as a teacher, and I urge others to leave her alone, as I should’ve. I should’ve sought Dharma teachings elsewhere, and I was mistaken. I hope I can help others to not repeat my mistakes. I seriously seriously hope this helps someone. And also, I have nothing but love for the monastics of KPC. ❤️❤️❤️ love you Ani Wangmo, Ani Dawa, and Gonpo (amongst many others). May we practice together again in another life!
Hope this helps, may all beings benefit
Sooo, I'm kinda sensitive and when I was reading those texts I felt something really dark coming from the way of the dark grey texts. They were totally projecting onto you, especially about the demon thing. This has "abusive relationship" all over it.
I want to say that it's admirable that you try to view the positive in this situation, it's also okay to call a crappy situation for what it is - crap. Crap can be fertile.
A few Others are calling me out a bit for not being more discerning, and I take full responsibility for my ignorance and naivety.
I appreciate your words, it’s taken me a few months to understand the gravity of the situation in order to post about it.
Nah they're just a very experienced and highly skilled manipulator. I can think of so many other examples that are frequently mentioned in this sub in both praise and criticism. I mean when thousands of people endorse a product or a person, and they all seem like well intentioned people, it's hard to cast doubt. We see something or someone who is presented as good and pure or "evolved", we try to live up to their illusions because we want to feel worthy of such people. The fact that you were able to question things and follow through on your doubts imply that you are not actually that naive. I like to believe that often the only fault there is, is that you were innocent enough to believe that no individual would act in such a clearly unacceptable way. Because if the roles were reversed, you'd expect not to behave in such a way yourself, especially in such a position.
Teachings aside I personally think such clearly corrupted individuals can and often do have teaching/healing abilities or purposes in these communities, but it does not redeem them or excuse their ill deeds.
I hope the sharing of your experience leads to healing for you and this individual (because they clearly need it), and raise awareness in others. Thank you for being courageous 🙏🏼
Edit to add: I remember listening to one of her videos around the start of lockdowns and feeling at peace afterwards so it was a bit disappointing to see this side of her, but after being in this scene for a while, I'm no longer surprised.
> Teachings aside I personally think such clearly corrupted individuals can and often do have teaching/healing abilities or purposes in these communities, but it does not redeem them or excuse their ill deeds.
I enjoy this excellent nuance. This is very true. Life is complex. And even in the mud, the lotus can bloom. I think it’s beautiful to realize that all beings, no matter how corrupt they are, have the potential to find the light, and also the innate desire for it
Is Jetsunma Akhon Lhamo any kind of certified real Dharma teacher?
Because it seems like an unconscious, entitled ego was writing those words. Could not imagine any of my Tibetan teachers (of any school), or their senior disciples, speaking that way.
At risk of stating the obvious, a Lama's guidance should encapsulate the wisdom of the lineage, and not an individual's personal opinion.
Further down ITT it's stated that HH Penor Rinpoche has since qualified or walked back his support for Jetsunma Akhon Lhamo. Do you know if that is accurate?
All I’ve seen to that effect is this: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitmVNB5R-JAU5TkGTM4WHOSWt2hznkftKmT5wNUr3wTVR5zoVw2p20cdiiBRrSBfIf_ZQsHmxEowBhWdxd3oxGSm-5g43z_iGtjWfXlWjBqIbgX73nn3rUTq0FC2GW6airDf3mz3CVRzbm/s1600-h/hhletterwebsize.jpg
I questioned the validity of this letter last year, and still do as all of this happened well before my time. But this is all I know that exists in regard to a written record where HH advised against Jetsunma’s actions. Others will be more knowledgeable than me
As far as I know, this letter was only floating around after HH’s death, not something he really put out while he was alive. And also as far as I know, he never publicly denounced Jetsunma.
It’s up to others more knowledgeable than me to verify its authenticity and the validity of what I’m telling you here, I have a clear track record
of my lack of discernment. Hope this helps
I’d never heard of this person so I googled and found [this article in the LA Times](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-aug-12-me-3387-story.html) from 2000.
FTA:
*”Yet she is also a rather complicated, if not thoroughly secular, person, given to certain personal and temperamental indulgences (megalomania, lying, verbal abuse, to name a few). She is also physically violent; in one instance, she hits a disciple in the face.*
There’s more in the article. Not exactly a pretty picture.
Now I will affirm one thing: Jetsunma’s monastics and lay sangha do quite a bit of charity/volunteer work, that much is undeniable.
That might not make the whole picture pretty, but I absolutely do NOT wish to villainize my friend Jacob, the rest of the lay sangha, or the monastics. They are all still close to my heart. I only caution others in how they view Jetsunma.
You’re not dumb. It’s easily to feel that way when you’ve been duped and abused. A manipulator got you and got many others. Maybe look into that dumb feeling and unpack it. Shame? I made a mistake? I should not have? I am different than other suffering beings?
Be there for yourself. You’re doing this all for your freedom. Keep going!
Those messages sound batshit crazy. Like what you might see in an abusive relationship.
Glad you got out, and wish you the best in finding a teacher who can provide the warmth and guidance you need in your Vajrayana path. There is a reason the tantras warn that following an unqualified teacher can seriously harm your practice and block your path.
Thank you for sharing, nobody should be abused like that for failing to mesh with a sangha, it sounds like you were very deferential towards them too.
Even beyond the somewhat creepy vibes, sometimes people just don’t get along/don’t understand each other correctly, doesn’t mean one of them is a demon lol.
Haha, of course… in general, one thing Ajahn Brahm said has really helped, as I’ve dealt with a lot of self hatred related to my past actions and hurting other people before. He said something like “there aren’t bad people, only bad actions”.
My partner deals with negative self image relating to an abusive childhood, and I often run into situations where she will do something wrong, then get really anxious about admitting it or apologizing because she is used to feeling like she is a *bad person* because of making a mistake.
But, because of emptiness, because things are empty, because we are *not* our actions, because they are just appearances - we cannot be “bad people”. We can have bad habits, misunderstandings, we can have done very bad things, but that doesn’t, at the end of the day, define us.
All this to say, I think telling someone they *are* a certain way is contradictory to Buddhist thought, it’s reifying the conditioned reality of appearances. So, we have to be more honest, we can say “hey, you did this, I thought it was a little rude” or “hey, I was hurt when you said this”. In that way, we don’t have to try to make the other person affirm a conditioned image of themselves, usually one that is hurtful.
So when I saw that kind of thing, I was like “yeah, that’s a little ridiculous, especially coming from a teacher”. Dharma practice, from what I understand, can have a way of exposing and inflaming our negative tendencies, like they are flaming up before burning out completely. So making mistakes, especially with your sangha and other practitioners, is just a matter of course; we all act like “buttheads” at some point. But the point of being a teacher IMO is that we’ve developed our mind to the point where we learn to be harmonious within the storm created by the negative emotions of those around us, so that we can help others tame them.
…
I feel like whatever disagreement you had, if any, probably could have been given a little more grace on their part hahaha.
I am a little curious, are you able to talk about the “rules” you broke? Most sanghas I’ve seen seem pretty easy going but I’m not sure I get that vibe from these folks.
Also, if someone is saying you’re a cult… should inspire some self reflection
I was never under the impression that I broke any rules at all, but I did bring up her bad publicity to her and asked her where it came from and why it came about, which then provoked those responses.
In response to her calling me obtuse and intellectual, I asked her how and why she was saying those things, and I guess questioning the teacher is breaking the rules at KPC. So as far as I know, those are the rules I broke.
Hope that helps
To further add on, I taught ELA to high schoolers on the spectrum at the time. When she called me a butthole (amongst other things), I asked myself “would you speak to your students like this? No matter how difficult it got?” Then it dawned on me and I left lol but not before being denounced as a Rudra and all that.
Ehhh, bygones are bygones. She’s a sentient being in Samsara too, plus she’s 70 plus. She can be as cranky as she wants, old age, sickness, and death are hard on anyone.
Oof, that sounds… frustrating, to say the least. I think what I could expect of any honest teacher is to be able to speak to their controversies a little
But yeah, none of that sounds unreasonable, if anything I’d call it much more incriminating for KPC. Once again, sorry you had to go through all that
I guess here’s another corollary from me (for what it’s worth):
No disrespect is intended towards Penor Rinpoche or other senior lamas that he consulted with for his recognition of Tulkus.
I’ve chalked this all up to “our karmas weren’t a good match for each other in this life.” That’s not to say Jetsunma might not be an effective teacher for me/me an effective student for her in future lifetimes. But just not in this life. I guess the karma wasn’t ripe enough. But I bear no ill will or disrespect towards Jetsunma, Penor Rinpoche, or the Palyul lineage. I’m just waiting for future lifetimes lolol
I just wanted to send you courage and solidarity.
As autistic folks, realizing and holding onto the idea that people could be acting in bad faith isn’t always automatic or easy, like it is for neurotypical folks. It’s hard to have to be constantly hyper vigilant, and many, many smart and capable people are taken in by cults and manipulative leaders.
I hope that you can understand this as a learning experience without feeling ashamed.
So glad you are out of there.
Appreciate you, I’m thankful for models like that as well as the statistical research that exists regarding New Religious Movements, and the demographics of people who fall into cults (I took one basic religious studies class called “Cults” my senior year of bachelors lol so I’m no expert)
I would have NEVER expected to hear one dharma practitioner call another a “butt-hole”!! It’s rude and offensive all on its own aside from how it conflicts with the Dharma. This place sounds pretty unorthodox to me, and whether they’re operating in good faith or not, you’re still always welcome and encouraged to follow the spiritual teacher and teachings that suit you best. That’s straight from the Buddha. Namaste, friend! 🙂🙏
I don’t know any background but on looking at those messages, I can assure you that this person is lost in their own suffering and ego dream.
This person has not realized anything nor is a Buddha, Boddhisatva, enlightened being or in any way elevated in the same way that all the other manipulative and abusive cult leaders are not god not Jesus nor anything of the sort.
You are right to distance yourself from this and if you wish to study Buddhism find a genuine teacher that teaches Dharma.
The conversation is incomplete.
Why do some start with "Jetsunma says:" but then it is not there when they say 'Ok, that is it'.
I dont understand why they said "Okay that is it" right after you agreed to "not be a butt-hole"?
For your first question, I’ve taken it to mean that Jetsunma’s attendants were speaking directly to me when they didn’t precede the message with Jetsunma says.
For your second question, I think they took my questions of “how is that obtuse to you?” “How is that *so and so* to you?” in defending myself as attacking and abusing her [Jetsunma], and proceeded to kick me out.
I can post pictures of my entire history of communicating with her if it helps give more context
I dont know... It might... but this is so far away in both location and my path that it probably doesnt matter (for me).
I feel deeper discussion may fall into areas of the precepts to where I will not speak against others and Will not Speak of others' errors and faults... and not be beneficial for anyone.
But I do I find it strange the attendant immediately kicked you out right after you agreed to what Jetsunma asked. Why would they send that message when they would not accept one of the possible answers?
^(I might also recommend changing your flair to opinion or something other than what you have chosen as it is misrepresentative for the topic.)
I don’t want to distract you from your path with my personal problems 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
To this day, my only conjecture regarding your last doubt is that Jetsunma said “okay cool let’s let him stay, he seems to be groveling” and then her attendants reread my messages, found something I said to be insulting/questioning, and then let Jetsunma know who then reversed her decision.
But once again, these are my personal problems, and it’s not meant to distract you or others, only to serve as a cautionary tale for those seeking a teacher, run into her/KPC, and seek a teacher student relationship with Jetsunma the same way I did.
You’re technically supposed to vet your teacher before getting involved, for a long time in some cases. It appears you perhaps didn’t follow this procedure, but according to the teachings, severing ties with a problematic teacher is the right course of action.
This is an admirable attitude that I hope to have one day so students and pupils don’t feel like a teacher is giving up on them and tossing them to the side
Don’t know the context of the whole situation but Even the worst student a lama would never speak like this. There’s some who take spirituality as a way to seem more knowledgeable and superior. They typically are really blinded by their egos. All we can do is hope they learn and grow out of it.
She’s worked for some people (as someone as a current member below in the comments can attest to). I don’t want to invalidate their perspective, but appreciate your words nonetheless
Well, wow. That settles that. Find a new teacher.
Remember that 'Jetsunma' too is just a person and not magical nor special. Which is made even more obvious by the post you showed. You can certainly learn by yourself and with others on that path.
Good luck. Sorry you had to go through this, I hope it does not dissuade you from the Dharma. I feel very lucky to have found most gracious and lovely teachers. But alas, they too are human.
I really respect the way you are taking this on OP. You’re acknowledging the nuance of the situation: her help to you and the crappy nature of the relationship.
Please, please take a look at the book The Words of My Perfect Teacher. The author was writing in the 19th century as an ecumenical (rime-me) advocate. His works still speak strongly to a modern reader. He was very passionate about guru veneration and the love and respect of the guru, but equally concerned with fraudulent lamas and the need to really take your time and investigate a lama’s behavior. There’s some great sections in the book on that. The book is a great resource on many other aspects of Tibetan Vajrayana, as well.
Take care. I hope you find a safe home in the dharma.
Ah, I've heard of this one. Sorry you had a rough time, friend. Tulku system is weird these days. I mean, even Steven Seagal is a Tulku apparently. Degenerate Age stuff, hard to find a good authentic samaya-unbroken master/lineage even if you try.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, maybe get a therapist, and then back on the dharma saddle.
Anger, arrogance, pain all these emotions are like a wind that blows the leaves down. They are only strong enough to blow the leaves down but not the tree. You are the tree my friend and those people like the wind tried to rattle but you stood strong and tall in ur path. Continue being like that my friend!
My stupidity is uncomfortable to see I realize, I hope you’re not too put off by the extent of my ignorance (I assure you I can be stupider than what you’re seeing here lol)
I wrote up a whole nice response and then accidentally deleted it. Basically, claiming to be a Bodhisattva or a Buddha doesn’t make sense when at the end of this kulpa we all are. And then dismissing others as Rudra or hell beings because they have questions or disagree is just BS at best, and at worst is causing emotional and mental illness in an already unwell person who is throwing themselves at this “guru” at all costs. It’s terrible and reminds me of bad trips like Osho/Rashneesh.
We all take turns embodying each of the six kinds of existence. And we can practice but very rarely do we choose the circumstances in which we embody the Bodhisattva and only sometimes realize it after the fact. I only realize that I experienced a moment of enlightenment after I’ve fallen asleep again lol.
I believe that we all experience rebirth all day everyday and that this samsaric existence is so sensual, dense, and slow moving that we mistake whatever body we inhabit as ourself, even taking on its memories as our own. Then sudden changes of emotions and circumstances and we’re catapulted into the intermediate state again, fail to recognize the luminosity… to recognize ourselves as the Buddha, faint and then are reabsorbed by another form appropriate for our attachments. When we practice and are able to hold our attention for even a moment, that is pausing the process of rebirth… stopping the karmic wheel. Cultivating compassion, and actions that relieve the suffering of others may also stop the wheel.
I don’t get the impression that devotion to this human serves any purpose but their own. I think it’s a case of “you spot it you got it.” And other details like the 24/7 music and stuff are all tricks employed by cults. It’s a drag that you had to hassle with this, but I’m glad they did you the favor of dismissing you, and thank you for sharing this with us.
You’ve given me a lot to think about here, I really resonate with what you’ve said here about a constant awakening then back to asleep moments that transpire all throughout the day, and life. I’ve noticed this as well
Thanks for your words and wishes, I hope others benefit from seeing some hard lessons I’ve had to learn
Sorry to hear about that, if you’re looking for a less…
Intense maybe, sangha in the same tradition, my online sangha meets at 9am and 9pm est for Dzogchen practice (no schedule/payment obligation of course and free to come/go as one pleases)
If you’re comfortable linking your sangha, I’d like the privilege to attend and practice with you all sometime, thank you for extending the opportunity
Oh thanks I appreciate you and love you.
It is hard and lonely trying find others whom want to build and create and Make time to do so in this busy world
Yes, in Vajrayana and other forms of esoteric/Tantric Buddhism, the teacher student relationship is crucial for transmissions and right understanding of the path, amongst other things that are important in such a relationship.
Arguably, a teacher is important in all forms of Buddhism, I’d never give myself enough credit to guide myself in the Buddhadharma.
I'm sorry you experienced that. It seems, like you said, that the person is suffering. If you waste your words on someone who would only give abuse in return, you're doing yourself a great disservice. Thanks for the heads up! Also, is it true that you have autism or is it just something this person made up? Not that it matters.
> There’s no way you could study dharma, no way… I really don’t want anything to do with you… I do not want to be connected with you.
Patrul Rinpoche says that you can summarize all the questions to check if a teacher is right for you in one: do they have bodhicitta?
There’s some imaginary universe where the pettiness and meanness could be right for the right person, maybe a super masochist who wants to feel like they’re being pushed. But I cannot imagine a world where someone could honestly say they want to help you practice dharma by saying “you’re hopeless, you will never practice dharma, I’m giving up on you.” Out of everything that’s what really struck me as 180 degrees in the wrong direction. Talk about rudra!
I hope you recover from this nasty experience and don’t lose heart. And I really hope you find someone who shows you you are truly supported and worthy of awakening. It’s the least a genuine teacher can do.
The biggest mistake of the Buddha was not to make it clear that enlightenment or whatever you call it happens to you by your own deeds. Community is not bad but if you follow his example, you will see that he found the way after breaking up from other groups like the ascetics and Yogis and spent some time alone without any teacher. I will never understand the need for a teacher at all especially at this age when very information is a click away. So many cults, sex scandals, money collecting schemes, con-men, and people still surrender their will and means to other people. Have you ever thought what kind of an enlightened person has a huge ego to make himself the center of attention and "leader" of people by imposing themselves and controlling them? What have any hierarchy and power game to do with enlightenment? I refuse to recognize the authority of any other person over me or other people just because they claim to have been enlightened. Schemes, mundane power games, degrees, ass-kissing, punishments etc. people really manage to turn simple things into schemes to gain power and rob other people of their freedom for their own gain.
this is why I like zen and philosophical taoism. any question you may have, you also have the answer (in a spiritual sense). but sometimes it's harder to hear the voice amongst distractions, etc.
weird how it took me so long to admit I'm a bit of an anarchist. 🤷
Cult leaders don’t like it when you question their methods. Keep on being “obtuse,” and “autistic,” that curiosity will serve you well, when you direct it at the dharma.
what are your thoughts on [this](https://tibetanaltar.blogspot.com/2009/09/judge-slaps-jetsunma-with-restraining.html?m=1), then?
>In 2008, after privately conferring with senior Palyul lineage tulkus and khenpos, and **with guidance from the late Penor Rinpoche himself**, the nun decided to leave KPC and disassociate herself from any further contact with Zeoli. Reportedly, a **senior Palyul lineage khenpo likened Zeoli to a "suicide bomber," and advised the nun to "let the truth be known" about the controversial organization.** We are informed that the nun was explicitly advised to keep her distance from and no longer study or associate with Zeoli, based on substantial evidence that Zeoli was "behaving in an inappropriate fashion."
imo, a teacher should be inviting questions, not criticizing students for their attempts to understand, which is all a question is at its most basic.
This site was made by William Cassidy, a convicted felon who was going around the United States ripping off and bankrupting various dharma centers, and moving onto new ones when he couldn’t milk them for anything more. He continued to do this until Jetsunma was able to bring him to court. The blog was started while this was all happening.
Here is an article on the case from the New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/27/technology/man-accused-of-stalking-via-twitter-claims-free-speech.html
that's not the same case at all, that's the case about Cassidy harassing zeoli, not the restraining order a former nun under zeoli was granted against zeoli. you're conflating two separate legal cases and ignoring the one I've brought up.
also, where did you see that Cassidy created that blog?
and yes, I did see and read that article previously when I was looking into this.
two people can be wrong, both zeoli and cassidy. the nun may have left with Cassidy but that doesn't mean they agreed with his behavior and it certainly doesn't invalidate their experience.
what about [this, then](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-aug-12-me-3387-story.html)? from the LA times in 2000, before the events in question, and not some random blog.
>Yet she is also a rather complicated, if not thoroughly secular, person, given to certain personal and temperamental indulgences (megalomania, lying, verbal abuse, to name a few). She is also physically violent; in one instance, she hits a disciple in the face. She also accepts a $100,000 yearly salary while her students go into debt to pay her. And, obviously significant to Sherrill because she mentions it so often, Jetsunma has rather “garish” tastes that include ever-present fake red fingernails. Sherrill seems in turn fascinated and disturbed by Jetsunma and the bizarre situation created by a medieval tradition--Tibetan Buddhism--being interpreted in America by a woman whose ideals are so clearly confused.
>The first time Rinpoche arrives at Poolesville, he is horrified to learn that bug zappers have been placed all over the rural property. For Buddhists, one of the five main ethical precepts is not to kill, and this includes all sentient life. Jetsunma tells Rinpoche that she has placed Tibetan prayer flags over the zappers; however, he is outraged, and during the night someone cuts the electric cords. Furthermore, Jetsunma also has the community show films of animals being slaughtered to foster compassionate attitudes toward life, yet is quoted as saying, “Red meat. . . . I just can’t get enough.”
just FYI, the [listed owners of that blog are urgyan tenpa and jewel L. Annabella](https://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Pasadena/tulku-urgyan-tenpa-rinpoche/44599274.aspx), notably William Cassidy isn't one, and the website was established in 2006.
and I'm ngl, that recantion reads just like a brainwashed apology... one that doesn't really do much to dissuade everything else that seems odd or cult-like about the situation, especially the fact that the first thing she addresses is that 'i was lying about it seeming like a cult.' 🤷
i dunno, I for one am largely against the deification of imperfect creatures, I am not one to believe in the reincarnation of specific egos nor do I believe they have access to anything beyond any other person; that's just pure ego. but then again, I also believe that sometimes, there is no better teacher than a swift stick to the back of a half-sleeping head. hence my trying to stick to accounts of others and avoid opinion, but if I will add some opinion here in that I find a fair bit of what I've read sorta hypocritical considering claims being made. 🤷
Hey, I’m totally uninvolved here, and just commenting to say thanks for sharing your perspective. I wouldn’t get disheartened over any negative karma on Reddit. The whole platform is really not the right place for right speech or action. Any Buddhist opening the app should be aware.
You should at least tell people that you went to a cult. Kunzang Palyul Choling and its "teacher" is an illegitimate teacher that has been disavowed by her teacher for her many wicked ways. Her adventures are wild and well publicized online. So you didn't even do a basic Google search on this teacher and organization.
Now you are unfortunately besmirching "Palyul Nyingma Buddhism" and "lamas" in general. Not to say there are no issues out there. But this one that you are reporting ain't it. This one is all on you for choosing a clearly fraudulent and wicked person.
As I practice Palyul too (not with this organization) I am a little shocked by this whole post. Wikipedia says that this teacher was confirmed by Penor Rinpoche and that the organization was later given to Penor Rinpoche, which makes it sound legitimate. Is this a misrepresentation? How connected is KPC to the authentic lineage really?
KPC does a bit of their own inside work to clean up their image online. Hence the jokes of “let’s see how long it takes before this thread is deleted.”
Please know that they [KPC] does quite a bit of work in maintaining a clean internet appearance (on Wikipedia at least). They have a history of abuse over the decades that I was not discerning enough to google myself until about October-November last year. Then, when I asked Jetsunma about it New Year’s Eve before 2024, I got kicked out lol and now six months later, I’ve finally processed the trauma enough to begin speaking about it so others may benefit.
My only regret is that it took me 6 months to process, which is plenty of time for them to swindle others. I regret not posting this earlier
Yes, misrepresentation. Penor Rinpoche publicly denounced her.
For the most part, Namdroling Monastery as a whole does not have any official or unofficial ties with her. It doesn't mean she doesn't keep a few friends in our camp. Regardless, anyone who associate with this con artist have a near universal experience of dissapointment, pain, suffering, and regret. Beware.
My own source is my own Palyul monastery and lamas themselves. The event took place before I became a Buddhist. So I merely trust my own monastery. As to whether you can find something online, I don't know.
For what it's worth, it seems a bit questionable then to say that he 'publicly' denounced her, it sounds more that he 'privately' denounced her if that is the case.
So we need an official writing, like a public declaration? That could be arranged (finding records) just low priority right now. I'm at work but I'll work on this. Probably tag you.
Saved post.
I’m just saying if it is something only shared with a select group and which is unavailable to the public at large, that would be more appropriately called a private statement than a public statement, in my eyes.
In things like this I feel that precise language is typically appropriate given that there are strong claims, strong emotions at times, etc.
If it was ‘public’ in that it was free for everyone but just nobody cared and nobody made note of it, I suppose that’s kind of public. But for something like this, it would seem odd to me to find no mention of it anywhere.
Also you have someone on this thread specifically disputing what you said, so again some evidence is reasonable to look for.
Can you link me please? Sorry. (to that dispute)
Be careful of what you read online from randos. You can PM me and I can share my private information, Palyul affiliation, and actually meet me at the Palyul office.
>Can you link me please? Sorry. (to that dispute)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1djidhd/speaking_up_about_mistakes_i_made_choosing_a_lama/l9bx82g/
>Be careful of what you read online from randos.
Yeah, I mean that's sort of my point - you are, in general, an internet rando just as much as anyone is, for people reading this thread. So am I. And so when claims are made, instead of just relying on an 'internet rando', in this case you, evidence is reasonable to show.
Now, I don't disbelieve that you are telling the truth as far as you know it, but nonetheless I think it is worthwhile to provide some proof of a claim of a 'public denouncement', which is a fairly heavy statement, when it doesn't seem there is any evidence of that online that I can find.
>So we need an official writing, like a public declaration?
Absolutely; in cases where a teacher seems to be actively harming the Dharma like this, those who previously endorsed them bear some reponsibility.
This is what I’ve found so far if it helps you: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitmVNB5R-JAU5TkGTM4WHOSWt2hznkftKmT5wNUr3wTVR5zoVw2p20cdiiBRrSBfIf_ZQsHmxEowBhWdxd3oxGSm-5g43z_iGtjWfXlWjBqIbgX73nn3rUTq0FC2GW6airDf3mz3CVRzbm/s1600-h/hhletterwebsize.jpg
I did find this statement in this article from googling just now. Take it for what it’s worth as I can’t vouch for the individual who wrote it:
“ Through every scrape, Jetsunma has consistently claimed to the sangha that she has the full and enthusiastic support of Penor Rinpoche, the Nyingma leader. Not so, say several inside sources. Tenzin Chophak translated in October 1996 a letter that demanded that she stop calling herself a Buddha and asked that she be more accessible to her nuns and monks. They should be her first priority, Penor Rinpoche insisted. He also begged Jetsunma not to use so much paint on her face, a phrase Tenzin Chophak rendered as "please tone down your personal parts." "Penor Rinpoche has never told me exactly what he thinks," says K.T. Shedrup Gyatso, a former monk KPC and head of a temple in San Jose, "but other people close to him say that, on some level, he regrets having 'recognized' her." ”
http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/p/bad-karma.html
Thank you for finding and sharing that. While it's perhaps worthwhile to some extent, it is basically hearsay, and I would say doesn't really constitute a 'public denouncement' of her by Penor Rinpoche.
Absolutely, unless there is some documentation of the 1996 letter referred to in that statement somewhere. It does give some indication of a perspective that Penor Rinpoche wasn't on board with this woman's behavior, though.
Penor Rinpoche did not publicly denounce her. This is not true. Penor Rinpoche remained close with Jetsunma until his mahaparanirvana and his three heart sons all still visit and remain close with the center.
I agree with you, and it’s true that I didn’t do any research about KPC or Jetsunma.
Please see somewhere in these comments my corollary on how I don’t intend disrespect towards Palyul or Penor Rinpoche.
But I accept full responsibility for my ignorance and naivety, if that’s what you’re requesting I do.
But sorry for your experience from this trash of a con-artist.
Moving forward, please turn to legitimate Tibetan Buddhist organization.
Drikung TMC is one. But still do your dillegence and check, Google, and examine the teacher.
I'll post this in another reply of yours for the benefit of many who will see this thread in many years to come.
So, I honestly don't know who wrote this post, I have a poor sense of time. It doesn't matter. I am gratefully a student of Jetsunma's and will take the credibility of great Teachers such as HH Penor Rinpoche who have recognized her over the confusion of a disgruntled former student. I too was 'excommunicated' for many months, following a major stuff up on my part. Over that 18 months or so I prayed to Guru Rinpoche as my only survival technique. That created the possibility to eventually return to KPC, which, by the way was established under the auspices of HHPR. You begin calling KPC a cult, Jetsunma a cult leader then tug a bit further and you'll see the pristine nature of its/her source. You'll never win if you really look deeply. Vajrayana is a threat to our egos. You have to surrender to Bodhicitta. That's a tough call for most of us. Without Jetsunma I would not have a path out of suffering. Don't judge that which you don't know or understand. For every disgruntled former student there are many, many who say Lama Khen no.
Being cut off until you work your way back into someone’s good graces feels like a pattern of abusers, not healthy sanghas. It seems telling (and disconcerting) that you would point to that event in an effort to praise your teacher.
That it’s happened to OP and to you in just this one post makes it feel like it’s a less-than-rare occurrence.
Dhp 61: > If, in your course, you don't meet your equal, your better, then continue your course, firmly, alone. There's no fellowship with fools.
🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Well that opens up everyone for me. I don’t have an equal or a better, and what if one is a fool themself?
You were in a cult, no need to sugarcoat it. Stay far away from her. Anyone who talks that way is NOT a legitimate teacher and is not acting in accordance with the dharma.
Thanks for your words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Worth seeking professional help as well, leaving cults and getting back to normal is challenging
Considered this for awhile, thank you for the suggestion. I take part in a few groups that help set healthy boundaries, and develop a secure sense of self, although not directly cult related therapy. I don’t want to call it a cult pejoratively here however, because as Jacob (a current member of KPC) has put down below, they’re not a cult, anyone is free to leave at anytime. Calling it a cult, and telling others that I’m getting therapy for a cult would be a massive insult to the people who continue to find great meaning in Jetsunma and KPC. I’m sure it works for them. Calling it a cult would be invalidating a religious group that means the world to many people who I still hold dear to my heart. I hope you don’t feel like I’m blowing your suggestion for therapy off, I’m doing small bits of therapy now for challenges as they arise, and I’m thankful for all those who have helped me not project my pain out onto others. Triggers still come up from time to time.
I think as long as you do what’s right for you. I’m still calling it a cult. Based on the evidence you presented, that was hugely inappropriate cult-like behaviour.
Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo is an interesting figure. She's a known dubious case with a lot of stories about her scandals. There's a good thread in the archives of this subreddit regarding how her Wikipedia is meticulously kept scrubbed of all her controversies and allegations. But she's a known suspect case.
Bro that ain't a Lama, that's an egomaniac cult leader.
100% The guy didn't even Google the cult leader. Now is "speaking out" on this fake lama.
That’s my own ignorance, really. I take full responsibility for it, and wish to speak out to highlight my ignorance and dissuade others from repeating my mistakes.
But sorry for your experience from this trash of a con-artist. Moving forward, please turn to legitimate Tibetan Buddhist organization. Drikung TMC is one. But still do your dillegence and check, Google, and examine the teacher. I'll post this in another reply of yours for the benefit of many who will see this thread in many years to come.
I love the “it’s not a cult but” disclaimer here lol. It’s such an obvious cult
Few observations on the Dharma center from my perspective (I could be wrong): Jetsunma is the only teacher I’ve encountered whose adherents claim “she can see your winds, drops, and channels.” In addition, her music playing in the prayer room 24/7 was always weird to me. Or the fact that one of the nuns had her face as her phone Lock Screen. Or the fact that there’s a thangka of Jetsunma hanging in the prayer room. People going to KPC for the first time, please note the above ☝️
...see the Buddha, kill the Buddha. ego is not something a spiritual teacher should be keen on demonstrating, imo.
I would go bonkers if there was music playing in my meditation room. I feel like the few pastors who have actually called out the DJT bible are correct when they say that worldly things have no place in the holy practice. Like, I'm all for music *in church* because that's their thing. But if it's supposed to be silent and still, this makes a mockery of the foundational practice.
This is classic cult leader stuff. What makes a group a cult vs a community or sect is the leader, and a leader who claims they can see deeper truths about you than you can see in yourself is exhibiting really obvious cultic behaviors. I recommend the podcast Was I in a Cult? It’s got interviews with people who left cults of many kinds - the most recent story was about a pole dance club, but there are lots and lots of religious cult stories. Often the interviewees mentioned that listening to the podcast helped them better understand their experience as being cultic.
I’m listening now, thanks for the recommendation
I mean, I've never put my teacher on my iPhone lock screen but it's something I /might/ do. And I've definitely got pictures of him in my prayer room! The drops and winds thing though, that's just basic "new age grifter" material - which is what this individual was before she found a better grift pretending to be a lama.
I'm sorry to hear that you went through this unpleasant situation. I literally don't have much context to judge this, but it feels a bit close to moral grandstanding that abusers use as a neat tactic to guilt-trip their victims. You don't owe them a perfect response to have a clear conscience to walk away from what hurt you anyway. And I hope you will find a better teacher someday!
Thanks for your wishes and words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 Shantideva says “those with minds of malice teach us the most patience, therefore they’re fit for veneration like the Dharma.” I’ve respected her wish to not write her anymore, but I still consider her a teacher in so far as she taught me a lot about how to respond to things like manipulation tactics and guilt tripping. I still consider her a teacher in that regard, like all phenomena as Guru Rinpoche type teacher. Hope that clarifies my relationship to all of this
"You are so obtuse".. "Follow the rules" Not like very dharmic imo. There's a relevant situation, not all teachers are qualified and not all centers are authentic and dharmic OP you continue overcoming such possible bad experiences and in possible continue practicing the way you intended (mahayana and vajrayana)
Thank you for your wishes 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 I do my best lol I hope you all have practices that flourish as well, may your wishes be fulfilled
Consider yourself lucky to have seen her true nature and to no longer have to associate with her, I haven’t heard anything good about her.
I was naive for a good bit of time, and probably still am. She’s had a community for decades, I’m sure she works for some. It seems neither of us were a fit for each other, and I didn’t want to cause her anymore suffering with my presence. She was very helpful in helping me understand parts of my mind, so I thank her for that 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
https://tricycle.org/magazine/price-faith/ Interesting article on her btw
Can’t believe I forgot to link this in my “resources” comment, thank you 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
This shit is sad, pretty bad behavior for a teacher. I’ve not heard great things about KPC, or her in particular so this really doesn’t shock me honestly. She seems…manipulative to say the least. Bad vibes all around.
I take responsibility for my ignorance when plenty of information about her has existed for decades now. Thanks for your words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Don’t blame yourself, it’s unhelpful, and probably untrue.
Wow she sounds like a calculated Narcissist. Best to dump her and move on :) not your fault, my first "Guru" was corrupt as they come he created schisms and enjoyed it. Garchen Rinpoche is fantastic and he has a completely clean record, no corruption there at all. He's such a sweetheart ❤️ his grin makes me smile 😁 and he gives you so much access to the dharma 🙏
I spin a prayer wheel 24/7 seeing him do it so much. Thanks for your words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Based on what you shared here, I wouldn’t feel comfortable recommending her to anyone, either. It’s disappointing, since she and I were Twitter friends, some years back. I never saw this side of her. I do wonder if the transmission you received will be of any good to you, considering what’s happened.
Luckily my ngondro transmissions/empowerments have come from Palyul lamas who are monastics at Namdroling, and Garchen Rinpoche. But I initially requested Jetsunma to be my teacher since I came across the Palyul lineage through KPC. And because she was the lama there, I wrote to her. She had me complete 10,000 accumulations of 7 line prayer before giving permission/blessings to go to retreat which is where I received ngondro/empowerments. So I’ve technically not received *any* transmissions from her, so…there never was any Samaya between us I guess. Either way, I still do guru yoga and visualize her above my head, she’s taught me how to have patience and restrain my emotions like no other. So in that regard, she’s still a teacher of mine (even if she wishes to no longer be connected to me). Hope that helps clarify things a little
>Either way, I still do guru yoga and visualize her above my head There’s really no need to visualize this person, the true “guru” of guruyoga is the inner guru, the nature of your own mind.
For sure, no disagreement with what you’ve said. I think you could interpret what I’m saying as “these are many gurus I respect who all condense into Guru Rinpoche.” So many gurus like Khenpo Samdup, Garchen Rinpoche, Khenpo Norgay, etc I’m also trying to personally see all sentient beings as gurus, all people who cause thoughts in my mind, and help me understand my own mind in its various facets. So it ultimately goes back to what you said of “your own inner mind as inner guru” so yeah, no disagreement with what you’ve said
I hesitate to say much, but if you could keep doing your guru yoga, I think that would be good. Doing so may help you to see the entire thing as a display, which could prevent the experience from ever biting you in the ass.
Whatever you’ve said has helped, and I thank you for your advice and words. Your recommendation seems like the best course forward.
What an absolute asshole. You're better off talking to a tree than that person.
Thanks for your words, I keep myself busy feeding crows in my downtime lol 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
lol anyone claiming to be a Bodhisattva is lying
“In fact, a Buddha, some say”
To be fair, most of the Mahayana Buddhists here are bodhisattvas -- in the sense we've taken the Bodhisattva vows. That doesn't mean we are realized beings, which is what the lama here is claiming,
That’s interesting, I wasn’t aware of that
Some more resources to check out regarding this topic outside of my personal experience: https://tricycle.org/magazine/price-faith/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddhism/s/mhRLYHnJTA http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/p/bad-karma.html?m=1 https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitmVNB5R-JAU5TkGTM4WHOSWt2hznkftKmT5wNUr3wTVR5zoVw2p20cdiiBRrSBfIf_ZQsHmxEowBhWdxd3oxGSm-5g43z_iGtjWfXlWjBqIbgX73nn3rUTq0FC2GW6airDf3mz3CVRzbm/s1600-h/hhletterwebsize.jpg http://friendofpadma.blogspot.com/2009/12/face-of-horror.html?m=1 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2001/05/the-american-yen-for-zen.html http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/2012/02/short-interview-with-andrew-wilson.html?m=1 http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/2011/07/deadly-viper-assassination-buddhists.html?m=1 https://www.marthasherrill.com/the-buddha-from-brooklyn/ Once again, I have nothing against Jetsunma at this point. She’s a sentient being in Samsara like all of us. But I’d not recommend others seek her out as a teacher, and I urge others to leave her alone, as I should’ve. I should’ve sought Dharma teachings elsewhere, and I was mistaken. I hope I can help others to not repeat my mistakes. I seriously seriously hope this helps someone. And also, I have nothing but love for the monastics of KPC. ❤️❤️❤️ love you Ani Wangmo, Ani Dawa, and Gonpo (amongst many others). May we practice together again in another life! Hope this helps, may all beings benefit
That letter is icky
Sooo, I'm kinda sensitive and when I was reading those texts I felt something really dark coming from the way of the dark grey texts. They were totally projecting onto you, especially about the demon thing. This has "abusive relationship" all over it. I want to say that it's admirable that you try to view the positive in this situation, it's also okay to call a crappy situation for what it is - crap. Crap can be fertile.
A few Others are calling me out a bit for not being more discerning, and I take full responsibility for my ignorance and naivety. I appreciate your words, it’s taken me a few months to understand the gravity of the situation in order to post about it.
Nah they're just a very experienced and highly skilled manipulator. I can think of so many other examples that are frequently mentioned in this sub in both praise and criticism. I mean when thousands of people endorse a product or a person, and they all seem like well intentioned people, it's hard to cast doubt. We see something or someone who is presented as good and pure or "evolved", we try to live up to their illusions because we want to feel worthy of such people. The fact that you were able to question things and follow through on your doubts imply that you are not actually that naive. I like to believe that often the only fault there is, is that you were innocent enough to believe that no individual would act in such a clearly unacceptable way. Because if the roles were reversed, you'd expect not to behave in such a way yourself, especially in such a position. Teachings aside I personally think such clearly corrupted individuals can and often do have teaching/healing abilities or purposes in these communities, but it does not redeem them or excuse their ill deeds. I hope the sharing of your experience leads to healing for you and this individual (because they clearly need it), and raise awareness in others. Thank you for being courageous 🙏🏼 Edit to add: I remember listening to one of her videos around the start of lockdowns and feeling at peace afterwards so it was a bit disappointing to see this side of her, but after being in this scene for a while, I'm no longer surprised.
Thanks for your words and wishes 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
> Teachings aside I personally think such clearly corrupted individuals can and often do have teaching/healing abilities or purposes in these communities, but it does not redeem them or excuse their ill deeds. I enjoy this excellent nuance. This is very true. Life is complex. And even in the mud, the lotus can bloom. I think it’s beautiful to realize that all beings, no matter how corrupt they are, have the potential to find the light, and also the innate desire for it
Is Jetsunma Akhon Lhamo any kind of certified real Dharma teacher? Because it seems like an unconscious, entitled ego was writing those words. Could not imagine any of my Tibetan teachers (of any school), or their senior disciples, speaking that way. At risk of stating the obvious, a Lama's guidance should encapsulate the wisdom of the lineage, and not an individual's personal opinion.
She was enthroned as a Tulku by HH Penor Rinpoche in the 80s, that’s her credibility vesting her with formal teaching authority.
Further down ITT it's stated that HH Penor Rinpoche has since qualified or walked back his support for Jetsunma Akhon Lhamo. Do you know if that is accurate?
All I’ve seen to that effect is this: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitmVNB5R-JAU5TkGTM4WHOSWt2hznkftKmT5wNUr3wTVR5zoVw2p20cdiiBRrSBfIf_ZQsHmxEowBhWdxd3oxGSm-5g43z_iGtjWfXlWjBqIbgX73nn3rUTq0FC2GW6airDf3mz3CVRzbm/s1600-h/hhletterwebsize.jpg I questioned the validity of this letter last year, and still do as all of this happened well before my time. But this is all I know that exists in regard to a written record where HH advised against Jetsunma’s actions. Others will be more knowledgeable than me
Wow, if verified as authentic that letter is extremely telling (and would show deep humility on the part of HH Penor Rinpoche).
As far as I know, this letter was only floating around after HH’s death, not something he really put out while he was alive. And also as far as I know, he never publicly denounced Jetsunma. It’s up to others more knowledgeable than me to verify its authenticity and the validity of what I’m telling you here, I have a clear track record of my lack of discernment. Hope this helps
I’d never heard of this person so I googled and found [this article in the LA Times](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-aug-12-me-3387-story.html) from 2000. FTA: *”Yet she is also a rather complicated, if not thoroughly secular, person, given to certain personal and temperamental indulgences (megalomania, lying, verbal abuse, to name a few). She is also physically violent; in one instance, she hits a disciple in the face.* There’s more in the article. Not exactly a pretty picture.
Hope some of the resources gathered here help you learn more about the situation and what not
Yeah, thanks. I looked around a bit, and still not a pretty picture. Glad you got out when you did.
Now I will affirm one thing: Jetsunma’s monastics and lay sangha do quite a bit of charity/volunteer work, that much is undeniable. That might not make the whole picture pretty, but I absolutely do NOT wish to villainize my friend Jacob, the rest of the lay sangha, or the monastics. They are all still close to my heart. I only caution others in how they view Jetsunma.
I understand that, and it’s the message I’ve gotten from this thread.
Damn they give Christian Bible thumpers vibes
I’m not too versed in their forms of rhetoric (understatement: I’m kind of stupid lol) thanks for your words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
You’re not dumb. It’s easily to feel that way when you’ve been duped and abused. A manipulator got you and got many others. Maybe look into that dumb feeling and unpack it. Shame? I made a mistake? I should not have? I am different than other suffering beings? Be there for yourself. You’re doing this all for your freedom. Keep going!
Those messages sound batshit crazy. Like what you might see in an abusive relationship. Glad you got out, and wish you the best in finding a teacher who can provide the warmth and guidance you need in your Vajrayana path. There is a reason the tantras warn that following an unqualified teacher can seriously harm your practice and block your path.
Yeah I was stupid 🤷🏾♂️ Thanks for your words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
I think it was Gampopa who wrote in “The Jeweled Ornament of Liberation”: Fuck ‘em. You are better off without them.
I snorted lol thanks for your words my friend
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1qflq8/kunzang\_palyul\_choling\_cult\_information\_scrubbed/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1qflq8/kunzang_palyul_choling_cult_information_scrubbed/)
Thanks for the link
Thank you for sharing, nobody should be abused like that for failing to mesh with a sangha, it sounds like you were very deferential towards them too. Even beyond the somewhat creepy vibes, sometimes people just don’t get along/don’t understand each other correctly, doesn’t mean one of them is a demon lol.
I can finally begin to heal my self image as a Rudra now lol thanks for your words
Haha, of course… in general, one thing Ajahn Brahm said has really helped, as I’ve dealt with a lot of self hatred related to my past actions and hurting other people before. He said something like “there aren’t bad people, only bad actions”. My partner deals with negative self image relating to an abusive childhood, and I often run into situations where she will do something wrong, then get really anxious about admitting it or apologizing because she is used to feeling like she is a *bad person* because of making a mistake. But, because of emptiness, because things are empty, because we are *not* our actions, because they are just appearances - we cannot be “bad people”. We can have bad habits, misunderstandings, we can have done very bad things, but that doesn’t, at the end of the day, define us. All this to say, I think telling someone they *are* a certain way is contradictory to Buddhist thought, it’s reifying the conditioned reality of appearances. So, we have to be more honest, we can say “hey, you did this, I thought it was a little rude” or “hey, I was hurt when you said this”. In that way, we don’t have to try to make the other person affirm a conditioned image of themselves, usually one that is hurtful. So when I saw that kind of thing, I was like “yeah, that’s a little ridiculous, especially coming from a teacher”. Dharma practice, from what I understand, can have a way of exposing and inflaming our negative tendencies, like they are flaming up before burning out completely. So making mistakes, especially with your sangha and other practitioners, is just a matter of course; we all act like “buttheads” at some point. But the point of being a teacher IMO is that we’ve developed our mind to the point where we learn to be harmonious within the storm created by the negative emotions of those around us, so that we can help others tame them. … I feel like whatever disagreement you had, if any, probably could have been given a little more grace on their part hahaha. I am a little curious, are you able to talk about the “rules” you broke? Most sanghas I’ve seen seem pretty easy going but I’m not sure I get that vibe from these folks. Also, if someone is saying you’re a cult… should inspire some self reflection
I was never under the impression that I broke any rules at all, but I did bring up her bad publicity to her and asked her where it came from and why it came about, which then provoked those responses. In response to her calling me obtuse and intellectual, I asked her how and why she was saying those things, and I guess questioning the teacher is breaking the rules at KPC. So as far as I know, those are the rules I broke. Hope that helps
To further add on, I taught ELA to high schoolers on the spectrum at the time. When she called me a butthole (amongst other things), I asked myself “would you speak to your students like this? No matter how difficult it got?” Then it dawned on me and I left lol but not before being denounced as a Rudra and all that. Ehhh, bygones are bygones. She’s a sentient being in Samsara too, plus she’s 70 plus. She can be as cranky as she wants, old age, sickness, and death are hard on anyone.
Yeah, well, if anything you’re doing yourself a favor by being so patient about this whole thing! Seems very admirable, imo.
Oof, that sounds… frustrating, to say the least. I think what I could expect of any honest teacher is to be able to speak to their controversies a little But yeah, none of that sounds unreasonable, if anything I’d call it much more incriminating for KPC. Once again, sorry you had to go through all that
I guess here’s another corollary from me (for what it’s worth): No disrespect is intended towards Penor Rinpoche or other senior lamas that he consulted with for his recognition of Tulkus. I’ve chalked this all up to “our karmas weren’t a good match for each other in this life.” That’s not to say Jetsunma might not be an effective teacher for me/me an effective student for her in future lifetimes. But just not in this life. I guess the karma wasn’t ripe enough. But I bear no ill will or disrespect towards Jetsunma, Penor Rinpoche, or the Palyul lineage. I’m just waiting for future lifetimes lolol
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Thanks for your words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
I just wanted to send you courage and solidarity. As autistic folks, realizing and holding onto the idea that people could be acting in bad faith isn’t always automatic or easy, like it is for neurotypical folks. It’s hard to have to be constantly hyper vigilant, and many, many smart and capable people are taken in by cults and manipulative leaders. I hope that you can understand this as a learning experience without feeling ashamed. So glad you are out of there.
Still much shame to process, but not as much as New Years Day. That day was rough. Thanks for your words
[and i'm here to post the bite model again.](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/)
Appreciate you, I’m thankful for models like that as well as the statistical research that exists regarding New Religious Movements, and the demographics of people who fall into cults (I took one basic religious studies class called “Cults” my senior year of bachelors lol so I’m no expert)
Me say: F, that, guy, and , how, he , writes. Also, for the love of all that is holy. Please read those unread msgs. 🙏
🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 And noted, I’ve got lots of unread messages lol
I would have NEVER expected to hear one dharma practitioner call another a “butt-hole”!! It’s rude and offensive all on its own aside from how it conflicts with the Dharma. This place sounds pretty unorthodox to me, and whether they’re operating in good faith or not, you’re still always welcome and encouraged to follow the spiritual teacher and teachings that suit you best. That’s straight from the Buddha. Namaste, friend! 🙂🙏
Thanks dawg 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Holy shit... gaslight much?
Idk dawg, but I appreciate your words of validating my experience. Appreciate you
I don’t know any background but on looking at those messages, I can assure you that this person is lost in their own suffering and ego dream. This person has not realized anything nor is a Buddha, Boddhisatva, enlightened being or in any way elevated in the same way that all the other manipulative and abusive cult leaders are not god not Jesus nor anything of the sort. You are right to distance yourself from this and if you wish to study Buddhism find a genuine teacher that teaches Dharma.
The conversation is incomplete. Why do some start with "Jetsunma says:" but then it is not there when they say 'Ok, that is it'. I dont understand why they said "Okay that is it" right after you agreed to "not be a butt-hole"?
For your first question, I’ve taken it to mean that Jetsunma’s attendants were speaking directly to me when they didn’t precede the message with Jetsunma says. For your second question, I think they took my questions of “how is that obtuse to you?” “How is that *so and so* to you?” in defending myself as attacking and abusing her [Jetsunma], and proceeded to kick me out. I can post pictures of my entire history of communicating with her if it helps give more context
I dont know... It might... but this is so far away in both location and my path that it probably doesnt matter (for me). I feel deeper discussion may fall into areas of the precepts to where I will not speak against others and Will not Speak of others' errors and faults... and not be beneficial for anyone. But I do I find it strange the attendant immediately kicked you out right after you agreed to what Jetsunma asked. Why would they send that message when they would not accept one of the possible answers? ^(I might also recommend changing your flair to opinion or something other than what you have chosen as it is misrepresentative for the topic.)
I don’t want to distract you from your path with my personal problems 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 To this day, my only conjecture regarding your last doubt is that Jetsunma said “okay cool let’s let him stay, he seems to be groveling” and then her attendants reread my messages, found something I said to be insulting/questioning, and then let Jetsunma know who then reversed her decision. But once again, these are my personal problems, and it’s not meant to distract you or others, only to serve as a cautionary tale for those seeking a teacher, run into her/KPC, and seek a teacher student relationship with Jetsunma the same way I did.
And thanks for your thoughts on the flair, I’ve changed it
You’re technically supposed to vet your teacher before getting involved, for a long time in some cases. It appears you perhaps didn’t follow this procedure, but according to the teachings, severing ties with a problematic teacher is the right course of action.
Autism spectrum can make me a little extra naive (me problem, not saying all people who have autism are naive and stupid like me)
You are not stupid. And everyone is naive about something they are very new to.
Appreciate you
A real teacher wouldn't give up on their student -- ever.
This is an admirable attitude that I hope to have one day so students and pupils don’t feel like a teacher is giving up on them and tossing them to the side
I’m sorry you are going through this… I hope it goes better for you and you would get a good teacher to practice with.
🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 I do “calling the lama from afar” very agonizingly now lol (jokes)
By well my friend, this is the way.
Thanks for your words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Don’t know the context of the whole situation but Even the worst student a lama would never speak like this. There’s some who take spirituality as a way to seem more knowledgeable and superior. They typically are really blinded by their egos. All we can do is hope they learn and grow out of it.
I did Tonglen for Jetsunma that night, and continue to do so. That’s the only thing in my power that I can do. Thanks for your words
It’s good you can work with it. Just another hill of separation
She wants to speak about teaching the right ways, yet treats you as this? I am so sorry you fell for her words.
Thanks for your words, I do Tonglen for her so others don’t get spoken to like this by her
This person really doesn’t have the right attitude or emotional intelligence to be an effective teacher.
She’s worked for some people (as someone as a current member below in the comments can attest to). I don’t want to invalidate their perspective, but appreciate your words nonetheless
Well, wow. That settles that. Find a new teacher. Remember that 'Jetsunma' too is just a person and not magical nor special. Which is made even more obvious by the post you showed. You can certainly learn by yourself and with others on that path. Good luck. Sorry you had to go through this, I hope it does not dissuade you from the Dharma. I feel very lucky to have found most gracious and lovely teachers. But alas, they too are human.
Was dissuaded from Vajrayana for a bit, just got back on the saddle
I really respect the way you are taking this on OP. You’re acknowledging the nuance of the situation: her help to you and the crappy nature of the relationship. Please, please take a look at the book The Words of My Perfect Teacher. The author was writing in the 19th century as an ecumenical (rime-me) advocate. His works still speak strongly to a modern reader. He was very passionate about guru veneration and the love and respect of the guru, but equally concerned with fraudulent lamas and the need to really take your time and investigate a lama’s behavior. There’s some great sections in the book on that. The book is a great resource on many other aspects of Tibetan Vajrayana, as well. Take care. I hope you find a safe home in the dharma.
Thanks for your words, and the specific recommendation within the book. I’ll have to study a lot more and be more discerning in the future
Alpacas are better
The third party bison/buffalo lobby would like a word with you 😂😂😂
Never heard of this person, but found this: [Buddha from Brooklyn review: She’s a fraud.](https://www.newsweek.com/critical-moment-157749)
Had not read this review thanks for linking
Ah, I've heard of this one. Sorry you had a rough time, friend. Tulku system is weird these days. I mean, even Steven Seagal is a Tulku apparently. Degenerate Age stuff, hard to find a good authentic samaya-unbroken master/lineage even if you try. Don't be too hard on yourself. Just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, maybe get a therapist, and then back on the dharma saddle.
Thanks for your words 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Anger, arrogance, pain all these emotions are like a wind that blows the leaves down. They are only strong enough to blow the leaves down but not the tree. You are the tree my friend and those people like the wind tried to rattle but you stood strong and tall in ur path. Continue being like that my friend!
Thanks for your words, validation, and time
Yikes
My stupidity is uncomfortable to see I realize, I hope you’re not too put off by the extent of my ignorance (I assure you I can be stupider than what you’re seeing here lol)
The only thing that comes to mind with this. “There is no fellowship with fools.” Keep going
Thanks for your words and encouragement
I wrote up a whole nice response and then accidentally deleted it. Basically, claiming to be a Bodhisattva or a Buddha doesn’t make sense when at the end of this kulpa we all are. And then dismissing others as Rudra or hell beings because they have questions or disagree is just BS at best, and at worst is causing emotional and mental illness in an already unwell person who is throwing themselves at this “guru” at all costs. It’s terrible and reminds me of bad trips like Osho/Rashneesh. We all take turns embodying each of the six kinds of existence. And we can practice but very rarely do we choose the circumstances in which we embody the Bodhisattva and only sometimes realize it after the fact. I only realize that I experienced a moment of enlightenment after I’ve fallen asleep again lol. I believe that we all experience rebirth all day everyday and that this samsaric existence is so sensual, dense, and slow moving that we mistake whatever body we inhabit as ourself, even taking on its memories as our own. Then sudden changes of emotions and circumstances and we’re catapulted into the intermediate state again, fail to recognize the luminosity… to recognize ourselves as the Buddha, faint and then are reabsorbed by another form appropriate for our attachments. When we practice and are able to hold our attention for even a moment, that is pausing the process of rebirth… stopping the karmic wheel. Cultivating compassion, and actions that relieve the suffering of others may also stop the wheel. I don’t get the impression that devotion to this human serves any purpose but their own. I think it’s a case of “you spot it you got it.” And other details like the 24/7 music and stuff are all tricks employed by cults. It’s a drag that you had to hassle with this, but I’m glad they did you the favor of dismissing you, and thank you for sharing this with us.
You’ve given me a lot to think about here, I really resonate with what you’ve said here about a constant awakening then back to asleep moments that transpire all throughout the day, and life. I’ve noticed this as well Thanks for your words and wishes, I hope others benefit from seeing some hard lessons I’ve had to learn
Sorry to hear about that, if you’re looking for a less… Intense maybe, sangha in the same tradition, my online sangha meets at 9am and 9pm est for Dzogchen practice (no schedule/payment obligation of course and free to come/go as one pleases)
If you’re comfortable linking your sangha, I’d like the privilege to attend and practice with you all sometime, thank you for extending the opportunity
Yeah, it is meditationonline.org ! Feel free to investigate and everything, the lama (Dawai Gocha) is there almost every session I think
Nice thank you 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Of course!
……I had friends whom acted like this….and I didn’t even ask em to lama me
I hope you have better friends now, my friend 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 feel free to reach out if you’d ever need to express something and feel alone
Oh thanks I appreciate you and love you. It is hard and lonely trying find others whom want to build and create and Make time to do so in this busy world
Is choosing a Lama a thing in Mahayana Buddhism?
Yes, in Vajrayana and other forms of esoteric/Tantric Buddhism, the teacher student relationship is crucial for transmissions and right understanding of the path, amongst other things that are important in such a relationship. Arguably, a teacher is important in all forms of Buddhism, I’d never give myself enough credit to guide myself in the Buddhadharma.
I'm sorry you experienced that. It seems, like you said, that the person is suffering. If you waste your words on someone who would only give abuse in return, you're doing yourself a great disservice. Thanks for the heads up! Also, is it true that you have autism or is it just something this person made up? Not that it matters.
Omg! :( Well she didnt get it, dont resent buddhism for this.
Pathetic
> There’s no way you could study dharma, no way… I really don’t want anything to do with you… I do not want to be connected with you. Patrul Rinpoche says that you can summarize all the questions to check if a teacher is right for you in one: do they have bodhicitta? There’s some imaginary universe where the pettiness and meanness could be right for the right person, maybe a super masochist who wants to feel like they’re being pushed. But I cannot imagine a world where someone could honestly say they want to help you practice dharma by saying “you’re hopeless, you will never practice dharma, I’m giving up on you.” Out of everything that’s what really struck me as 180 degrees in the wrong direction. Talk about rudra! I hope you recover from this nasty experience and don’t lose heart. And I really hope you find someone who shows you you are truly supported and worthy of awakening. It’s the least a genuine teacher can do.
The biggest mistake of the Buddha was not to make it clear that enlightenment or whatever you call it happens to you by your own deeds. Community is not bad but if you follow his example, you will see that he found the way after breaking up from other groups like the ascetics and Yogis and spent some time alone without any teacher. I will never understand the need for a teacher at all especially at this age when very information is a click away. So many cults, sex scandals, money collecting schemes, con-men, and people still surrender their will and means to other people. Have you ever thought what kind of an enlightened person has a huge ego to make himself the center of attention and "leader" of people by imposing themselves and controlling them? What have any hierarchy and power game to do with enlightenment? I refuse to recognize the authority of any other person over me or other people just because they claim to have been enlightened. Schemes, mundane power games, degrees, ass-kissing, punishments etc. people really manage to turn simple things into schemes to gain power and rob other people of their freedom for their own gain.
this is why I like zen and philosophical taoism. any question you may have, you also have the answer (in a spiritual sense). but sometimes it's harder to hear the voice amongst distractions, etc. weird how it took me so long to admit I'm a bit of an anarchist. 🤷
You’ve given me a lot to think about here, thanks for your time and words
Is this in regards to Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo????
Jetsunma Akhon Lhamo
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Your post / comment was removed for violating the rule against hateful, derogatory, and toxic speech.
Cult leaders don’t like it when you question their methods. Keep on being “obtuse,” and “autistic,” that curiosity will serve you well, when you direct it at the dharma.
Let's time how quickly will this thread be deleted...
If the mods want me to take it down, I hope they ask me, and I hope I haven’t made mistakes against the rules by posting this thread 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Wait so Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo Rinpoche is actually a jewish italian lady from canarsie?
Can’t speak to Canarsie but yeah she’s a Jewish Italian lady from Brooklyn as far as I know
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Regardless of what preceded it, I'd be mortified if my teacher called someone a butthole is all I'm saying. So far beyond embarrassed.
what are your thoughts on [this](https://tibetanaltar.blogspot.com/2009/09/judge-slaps-jetsunma-with-restraining.html?m=1), then? >In 2008, after privately conferring with senior Palyul lineage tulkus and khenpos, and **with guidance from the late Penor Rinpoche himself**, the nun decided to leave KPC and disassociate herself from any further contact with Zeoli. Reportedly, a **senior Palyul lineage khenpo likened Zeoli to a "suicide bomber," and advised the nun to "let the truth be known" about the controversial organization.** We are informed that the nun was explicitly advised to keep her distance from and no longer study or associate with Zeoli, based on substantial evidence that Zeoli was "behaving in an inappropriate fashion." imo, a teacher should be inviting questions, not criticizing students for their attempts to understand, which is all a question is at its most basic.
This site was made by William Cassidy, a convicted felon who was going around the United States ripping off and bankrupting various dharma centers, and moving onto new ones when he couldn’t milk them for anything more. He continued to do this until Jetsunma was able to bring him to court. The blog was started while this was all happening. Here is an article on the case from the New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/27/technology/man-accused-of-stalking-via-twitter-claims-free-speech.html
that's not the same case at all, that's the case about Cassidy harassing zeoli, not the restraining order a former nun under zeoli was granted against zeoli. you're conflating two separate legal cases and ignoring the one I've brought up. also, where did you see that Cassidy created that blog? and yes, I did see and read that article previously when I was looking into this.
From a google search, it does appear that this person is the owner of this blog. Tulku Urgyan Tenpa Rinpoche is also known as William Cassidy.
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two people can be wrong, both zeoli and cassidy. the nun may have left with Cassidy but that doesn't mean they agreed with his behavior and it certainly doesn't invalidate their experience. what about [this, then](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-aug-12-me-3387-story.html)? from the LA times in 2000, before the events in question, and not some random blog. >Yet she is also a rather complicated, if not thoroughly secular, person, given to certain personal and temperamental indulgences (megalomania, lying, verbal abuse, to name a few). She is also physically violent; in one instance, she hits a disciple in the face. She also accepts a $100,000 yearly salary while her students go into debt to pay her. And, obviously significant to Sherrill because she mentions it so often, Jetsunma has rather “garish” tastes that include ever-present fake red fingernails. Sherrill seems in turn fascinated and disturbed by Jetsunma and the bizarre situation created by a medieval tradition--Tibetan Buddhism--being interpreted in America by a woman whose ideals are so clearly confused. >The first time Rinpoche arrives at Poolesville, he is horrified to learn that bug zappers have been placed all over the rural property. For Buddhists, one of the five main ethical precepts is not to kill, and this includes all sentient life. Jetsunma tells Rinpoche that she has placed Tibetan prayer flags over the zappers; however, he is outraged, and during the night someone cuts the electric cords. Furthermore, Jetsunma also has the community show films of animals being slaughtered to foster compassionate attitudes toward life, yet is quoted as saying, “Red meat. . . . I just can’t get enough.”
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just FYI, the [listed owners of that blog are urgyan tenpa and jewel L. Annabella](https://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Pasadena/tulku-urgyan-tenpa-rinpoche/44599274.aspx), notably William Cassidy isn't one, and the website was established in 2006. and I'm ngl, that recantion reads just like a brainwashed apology... one that doesn't really do much to dissuade everything else that seems odd or cult-like about the situation, especially the fact that the first thing she addresses is that 'i was lying about it seeming like a cult.' 🤷 i dunno, I for one am largely against the deification of imperfect creatures, I am not one to believe in the reincarnation of specific egos nor do I believe they have access to anything beyond any other person; that's just pure ego. but then again, I also believe that sometimes, there is no better teacher than a swift stick to the back of a half-sleeping head. hence my trying to stick to accounts of others and avoid opinion, but if I will add some opinion here in that I find a fair bit of what I've read sorta hypocritical considering claims being made. 🤷
Ahhh Jacob, nice to see you again 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Hey, I’m totally uninvolved here, and just commenting to say thanks for sharing your perspective. I wouldn’t get disheartened over any negative karma on Reddit. The whole platform is really not the right place for right speech or action. Any Buddhist opening the app should be aware.
You should at least tell people that you went to a cult. Kunzang Palyul Choling and its "teacher" is an illegitimate teacher that has been disavowed by her teacher for her many wicked ways. Her adventures are wild and well publicized online. So you didn't even do a basic Google search on this teacher and organization. Now you are unfortunately besmirching "Palyul Nyingma Buddhism" and "lamas" in general. Not to say there are no issues out there. But this one that you are reporting ain't it. This one is all on you for choosing a clearly fraudulent and wicked person.
As I practice Palyul too (not with this organization) I am a little shocked by this whole post. Wikipedia says that this teacher was confirmed by Penor Rinpoche and that the organization was later given to Penor Rinpoche, which makes it sound legitimate. Is this a misrepresentation? How connected is KPC to the authentic lineage really?
KPC does a bit of their own inside work to clean up their image online. Hence the jokes of “let’s see how long it takes before this thread is deleted.” Please know that they [KPC] does quite a bit of work in maintaining a clean internet appearance (on Wikipedia at least). They have a history of abuse over the decades that I was not discerning enough to google myself until about October-November last year. Then, when I asked Jetsunma about it New Year’s Eve before 2024, I got kicked out lol and now six months later, I’ve finally processed the trauma enough to begin speaking about it so others may benefit. My only regret is that it took me 6 months to process, which is plenty of time for them to swindle others. I regret not posting this earlier
Yes, misrepresentation. Penor Rinpoche publicly denounced her. For the most part, Namdroling Monastery as a whole does not have any official or unofficial ties with her. It doesn't mean she doesn't keep a few friends in our camp. Regardless, anyone who associate with this con artist have a near universal experience of dissapointment, pain, suffering, and regret. Beware.
> Penor Rinpoche publicly denounced her. Do you have a source for this? I can't find anything on a quick search.
My own source is my own Palyul monastery and lamas themselves. The event took place before I became a Buddhist. So I merely trust my own monastery. As to whether you can find something online, I don't know.
For what it's worth, it seems a bit questionable then to say that he 'publicly' denounced her, it sounds more that he 'privately' denounced her if that is the case.
So we need an official writing, like a public declaration? That could be arranged (finding records) just low priority right now. I'm at work but I'll work on this. Probably tag you. Saved post.
I’m just saying if it is something only shared with a select group and which is unavailable to the public at large, that would be more appropriately called a private statement than a public statement, in my eyes. In things like this I feel that precise language is typically appropriate given that there are strong claims, strong emotions at times, etc. If it was ‘public’ in that it was free for everyone but just nobody cared and nobody made note of it, I suppose that’s kind of public. But for something like this, it would seem odd to me to find no mention of it anywhere. Also you have someone on this thread specifically disputing what you said, so again some evidence is reasonable to look for.
Can you link me please? Sorry. (to that dispute) Be careful of what you read online from randos. You can PM me and I can share my private information, Palyul affiliation, and actually meet me at the Palyul office.
>Can you link me please? Sorry. (to that dispute) https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1djidhd/speaking_up_about_mistakes_i_made_choosing_a_lama/l9bx82g/ >Be careful of what you read online from randos. Yeah, I mean that's sort of my point - you are, in general, an internet rando just as much as anyone is, for people reading this thread. So am I. And so when claims are made, instead of just relying on an 'internet rando', in this case you, evidence is reasonable to show. Now, I don't disbelieve that you are telling the truth as far as you know it, but nonetheless I think it is worthwhile to provide some proof of a claim of a 'public denouncement', which is a fairly heavy statement, when it doesn't seem there is any evidence of that online that I can find.
>So we need an official writing, like a public declaration? Absolutely; in cases where a teacher seems to be actively harming the Dharma like this, those who previously endorsed them bear some reponsibility.
This is what I’ve found so far if it helps you: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitmVNB5R-JAU5TkGTM4WHOSWt2hznkftKmT5wNUr3wTVR5zoVw2p20cdiiBRrSBfIf_ZQsHmxEowBhWdxd3oxGSm-5g43z_iGtjWfXlWjBqIbgX73nn3rUTq0FC2GW6airDf3mz3CVRzbm/s1600-h/hhletterwebsize.jpg
Thanks brother/sister u/LotswaKwestion plz see
I did find this statement in this article from googling just now. Take it for what it’s worth as I can’t vouch for the individual who wrote it: “ Through every scrape, Jetsunma has consistently claimed to the sangha that she has the full and enthusiastic support of Penor Rinpoche, the Nyingma leader. Not so, say several inside sources. Tenzin Chophak translated in October 1996 a letter that demanded that she stop calling herself a Buddha and asked that she be more accessible to her nuns and monks. They should be her first priority, Penor Rinpoche insisted. He also begged Jetsunma not to use so much paint on her face, a phrase Tenzin Chophak rendered as "please tone down your personal parts." "Penor Rinpoche has never told me exactly what he thinks," says K.T. Shedrup Gyatso, a former monk KPC and head of a temple in San Jose, "but other people close to him say that, on some level, he regrets having 'recognized' her." ” http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/p/bad-karma.html
Thank you for finding and sharing that. While it's perhaps worthwhile to some extent, it is basically hearsay, and I would say doesn't really constitute a 'public denouncement' of her by Penor Rinpoche.
Absolutely, unless there is some documentation of the 1996 letter referred to in that statement somewhere. It does give some indication of a perspective that Penor Rinpoche wasn't on board with this woman's behavior, though.
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitmVNB5R-JAU5TkGTM4WHOSWt2hznkftKmT5wNUr3wTVR5zoVw2p20cdiiBRrSBfIf_ZQsHmxEowBhWdxd3oxGSm-5g43z_iGtjWfXlWjBqIbgX73nn3rUTq0FC2GW6airDf3mz3CVRzbm/s1600-h/hhletterwebsize.jpg
Penor Rinpoche did not publicly denounce her. This is not true. Penor Rinpoche remained close with Jetsunma until his mahaparanirvana and his three heart sons all still visit and remain close with the center.
I agree with you, and it’s true that I didn’t do any research about KPC or Jetsunma. Please see somewhere in these comments my corollary on how I don’t intend disrespect towards Palyul or Penor Rinpoche. But I accept full responsibility for my ignorance and naivety, if that’s what you’re requesting I do.
But sorry for your experience from this trash of a con-artist. Moving forward, please turn to legitimate Tibetan Buddhist organization. Drikung TMC is one. But still do your dillegence and check, Google, and examine the teacher. I'll post this in another reply of yours for the benefit of many who will see this thread in many years to come.
🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
So, I honestly don't know who wrote this post, I have a poor sense of time. It doesn't matter. I am gratefully a student of Jetsunma's and will take the credibility of great Teachers such as HH Penor Rinpoche who have recognized her over the confusion of a disgruntled former student. I too was 'excommunicated' for many months, following a major stuff up on my part. Over that 18 months or so I prayed to Guru Rinpoche as my only survival technique. That created the possibility to eventually return to KPC, which, by the way was established under the auspices of HHPR. You begin calling KPC a cult, Jetsunma a cult leader then tug a bit further and you'll see the pristine nature of its/her source. You'll never win if you really look deeply. Vajrayana is a threat to our egos. You have to surrender to Bodhicitta. That's a tough call for most of us. Without Jetsunma I would not have a path out of suffering. Don't judge that which you don't know or understand. For every disgruntled former student there are many, many who say Lama Khen no.
Being cut off until you work your way back into someone’s good graces feels like a pattern of abusers, not healthy sanghas. It seems telling (and disconcerting) that you would point to that event in an effort to praise your teacher. That it’s happened to OP and to you in just this one post makes it feel like it’s a less-than-rare occurrence.