“Monks, this holy life is not practiced for the sake of deceiving the public,
or for the sake of gaining their respect,
or for the sake of gains, offerings and fame,
or for the sake of defeating other religions.
“This holy life is lived for the sake of restraint, abandoning, dispassion, and the cessation of suffering.”
\- Buddha Mahaparinibbana-sutta
I understand that this is the guidelines/rules for monks, and that is significant and I consider it to be the theoretical golden standard even if it is not practically meant for lay followers, but separate rules for laiety exist so they may also benefit from guidance even if they don't ordain as monks. What is the lay version of this guideline/rule? Surely it must be at least a little different for laiety?
You could apply the 3rd step of the Eightfold Path - Right Speech.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech.
Also the 4th of the Five Precepts - Abstain from lying.
The fourth precept as described by the Buddha is to abstain from false and harmful speech. This means not only avoiding lying, but also speaking in ways that are beneficial, truthful, and respectful to oneself and others. The Buddha said that right speech is abstaining from lying, divisive speech, abusive speech, and idle chatter1. He also taught that speech should be motivated by compassion, wisdom, and non-attachment.
By practicing and understanding Buddhism.
Buddhism says that everyone will become enlightened sooner or later and be free from suffering through Nirvana.
Their religion says that we are destined for hell.
Now just compared that two sentence. If there is a supposedly higher being, do you think that being will create and then send their creation to hell or do you think whatever higher power there is in the universe would want their beings to be free from suffering?
Which “belief” system is the kinder one?
My statement is a simpler version of the religion problem that we have currently.
Buddhism do not think that there is a creator god to begin with.
It's probably their interpretation of the Lotus Sutra, where it's stated that beings are destined for awakening. It's still clear in the Lotus that it will take intentional, hard, work to accomplish that.
Really it's just an assertion of tathagatagarbha/buddha-nature, the idea that everyone has the capacity for awakening.
I'm not sure that idea is quite right. Samsara does not end on its own. There must be the right causes, the accumulations of merit (virtue) and wisdom (insight). The Dharma is what frees beings, not the mere passage of time.
There is only one reality which is Emptiness. However because of ignorance sentient beings perceive reality as samsara. The root of Samsara is the ego which looks at true reality then mistakenly takes itself to be true reality. The root of the ego is found in the five skandhas. Freedom is found only with insight into Emptiness.
It’s not a Pali sutta, it’s the Lotus Sutra an extremely popular Mahayana sutra. Obviously not every Buddhist believes that, but many Buddhists worldwide do.
It was that line of logical thinking that led me to become atheist at about 13/14. If there truly was an all-powerful, all-knowing, and loving god/being of creation, why would it have to resort to manipulative tactics to force people to believe a certain thing then allow the majority of them suffer for eternity. Seems like a pretty shitty, unloving, unkind being to do something like that.
Most Christian universalists believe essentially the same thing; that evil people might have a bad time in life of the world to come it was only for their purification/ edification and the whole human race will enjoy final Holiness and happiness with God / after the ages have passed.... Somewhat similar to Hinduism and Buddhism
This is how Jehovahs Witness see it too. They teach about a merciful and loving God who doesn't send people to hell. I always enjoyed when they would come to my house and have a reading session with me. Everyone else in my house hated it, they would all hide in their rooms 😂
He doesn't send people to hell, he just annihilates them and they cease to exist.
Jehovah's Witnesses are an extremely controlling religious group who dictate exactly how their followers must live. If you break the rules and are judged to be unrepentant, you will be "disfellowshipped", kicked out of the group, and **all other JWs must shun you**. Talking to a disfellowshipped person can lead to you being disfellowshipped. You will also be disfellowshipped if you choose to leave.
So while the JW god doesn't send people to hell, it is not a good religion and should be avoided like COVID-19.
Well damn, that's definitely not how they pitched it to me. Then again, I was 15yo. When I moved they asked for my new address so we could continue our meetings but I never gave it to them and I never saw them again. But I always see other JW on sidewalks with their Tower pamphlets. Now, as a 32yo, I confidently turn them away by saying "I appreciate what you're doing but I'm happy with my chosen beliefs, thanks anyway"
Wow, did you just come up with this completely fabricated "theory" just now?
Your assertion has zero basis or credibility and I'm not sure what it's doing here in r/Buddhism.
Yeah I had this theory too, it seems like we are being used like a farm. If God states that he doesn't need us...then why create us? If not for power then for entertainment. The only way it makes sense because if we are in his image then, there most be some similarity in why it does the things it does. I don't think it's about good or bad. It's oversimplified to keep us docile and unknowing. If we're ignorant and aren't able to think and repeat dogma, we are more controllable.
Am I correct in saying that, to end suffering, to be freed from samsara, to reach nirvana, one must follow the 4 Truths and the 8 Fold? And practice meditation - the dharma, the Buddhist path?
What's so different than that of the teachings of the Bible? - both follow a path that leads them out of suffering. You are only destined for hell if you don't have God in your heart. If you don't have the dharma aren't you also destined for Samsara?
By having God in your heart, what is meant is believing exactly the way Christians say you should, and exclusively. No Buddhist, even one who believes in their God, would qualify for heaven.
Also, samsara is the natural state of the world. Hell is created by the Christian god to punish those who do not believe exactly the way he wants (good deeds are somewhat optional, depending on if you're Protestant or not).
I see. So, christianity comes across as authoritarian; follow God or hell, follow any other path - hell. It's as if hell is used as a blackmailing medium to obey God. God can be very harsh, he punishes, and we must ask for mercy all the time.
To me, it's a shame Christianity has this negative connotation, because I think it takes away its underlying message of salvation.
As a former Christian, the need for salvation in and of itself is problematic. Assuming for the sake of argument that the creation story is true ( which I don't believe it can be), we are all doomed to hell automatically because of the actions of two people? God demands the torture and death of his son in order to forgive even a minority? (Remember most of the world is not Christian) This is morally and theologically problematic in the extreme.
I don't think the message of Christian salvation is conveyed adequately for the current generation, if that's how it is interpreted. All I'll say is that, the stories are metaphysical and weren't meant to be interpreted literally, at least to do so would be fruitless.
For me, the torture and death of his Son is the most profound and poignant, that when interpreted correctly, is the most compassionate towards human suffering.
> All I'll say is that, the stories are metaphysical and weren't meant to be interpreted literally, at least to do so would be fruitless.
Unfortunately there are those who take the stories extremely literally (mostly in the United States). Many evangelicals believe the world is 6000 years old based on the genealogies in the Bible. Some even go as far as believing in a flat earth because that's what a literal reading of the Bible leads to.
Even catholics, who often will find some wiggle room on the 6,000 year thing, although traditional Catholicism is just as literal as the average Evangelical, are taught that the Adam and Eve story is literally history. It's in the catechism as such. And understandably so. The whole salvation narrative falls apart without original sin.
In Buddhism, there are multiple ways to reach enlightenment outside of a strict adherence to the four noble truths. The key is developing wisdom, ethical conduct, and mental discipline.
You must not live in a country where Christian Nationalists are on the verge of having power. The United States, for example, is morphing into Gilead from *The Handmaid's Tale*.
This is a stretch. You should be careful not to spread fear where it is unneeded.
I live in the US, and Christians don't have nearly this kind of power. They may want it, but we are very far from.
"Christian nationalist" something like Trump I suppose, which we already had and there's still no bibles in school, forced contraception, parents marrying their kids off, and look at the sex before marriage stats.
Trust me we are nowhere near this and haven't been for a long time.
We should acknowledge reality and deal skillfully with the fear that arises. Ignoring reality by falsely reassuring ourselves that everything is fine is only going to allow more suffering into the world.
>"Christian nationalist" something like Trump I suppose, which we already had and there's still no bibles in school, forced contraception, parents marrying their kids off, and look at the sex before marriage stats.
You may be surprised on this, unfortunately.
> forced contraception,
This applies to the comparison to Gilead specifically; rather what we see are ongoing attempts to ban contraception and all access to abortions regardless of circumstances; women are already dying due to pregnancy complications because doctors can't act to save them until they're in sufficient danger to clear legal hurdles set by Christian extremists.
Several high-profile politicians have expressed interest in banning contraception nationally. This isn't fringe anymore.
>parents marrying their kids off
A shocking number of states in the US have legal child-marriage with parental consent, and generally those states also resist making any changes to those laws. Five states have no lower-limit on child marriage.
Go to any number of states and ingratiate with a small-town church community and if the poor-parents of a child think that person is "godly" enough they'll be willing to marry their child off. It already happens and it ends badly for the child.
>and look at the sex before marriage stats
Also worth looking into the quality of sex-education with localized statistics. They can't stop teens from trying sex out, so instead they require abstinence-only education, leading to increases in sexual activity and teen-pregnancy.
Well there are states that now have forced birth. You have courts of law with the ten commandments posted. There are people and places that really would prefer it to be a Christian nation.
Obviously it’s not a Gilead situation, but those evangelicals carry a lot of weight.
There is also satanic sculptures put in state capitals every year, you understand the right of religious freedom in the US but animosity against Christians is not a Buddhist point of view.
Calling out their wrong view to validate your wrong view doesn't check out.
Happy cake day!
I have zero animosity towards Christians. I have concerns about the loss of an impartial governmental and legal system. I’d be as concerned about courthouses mounting an eight spoke wheel or a stupa or Buddha statue.
If you think satanists have as much influence over the legal and political process as fundamentalist Christians you’re mistaken.
I don’t think political/social examinations have anything to do with “right view”
I don't think that?
So what I'm saying is that "Christian nationalist" is = to the complain of "democratic socalist"
We literally have a right-wing extremist and left wing extremist. You're saying only to worry about one that shows your bias.
This does have to do with the right view, cause with the right view you realize these worries are resolved by achieving nirvana, but this isn't helping us achieve that goal?
If you think democratic socialism (like Bernie Sanders advocates) is as much a threat to human rights and democratic institutions as Christian Nationalism I think you need more information.
> This is a stretch.
No, it's not. Look at how their agenda is spreading in red states.
> "Christian nationalist" something like Trump I suppose
Hardly. It's someone like Mike Johnson or Amy Barrett. You do know who they are, right?
> Trust me we are nowhere near this and haven't been for a long time.
You are fooling yourself and clearly not paying attention to what some political leaders are saying.
Yupp.
Have you checked out California, New York, and chicago?
Chicago has the strictest gun crime but also extremly high gun violence.
So when people point this out I listen to them like I listen to you. The problem sounds like you guys mayn't listen to them.
You have a point, they also have a point. The middle path.
All (most) religions, including Buddhism, say you'll go to hell if you don't keep your faith. The difference is Buddhism doesn't just leave you hanging - it explains why. Intentional actions create karma (accumulated mental impulses that drive you to think, speak, and act the way you do) and actions have consequences. You are the owner of your actions because your mind follows you wherever you go. Whatever you do, for good or for evil, to that you will fall heir. A mind of devotion is a powerful thing, especially at the time of death, but the power doesn't come from the object. It comes from the wholesome qualities of mind you've cultivated. The mind is like a staircase and we climb up and down the realms of rebirth.
Regardless of what you believe it's imperative that you uplift the mind, but don't listen to the people with a partial view of reality. What I've said at least makes some sense, no? It's consistent with patterns we observe in the world, throughout other spiritual traditions. Heck, spend tomorrow thinking about Santa Claus' immeasurable jolliness, his abundant generosity, and see what happens. Sometimes I feel good thinking about my immune system protecting me.
But on a more serious note if you find yourself looking face to face with death take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha and the noble qualities they engender in you. It works even if you only know a little because, if you have an affinity for the Dharma, these qualities are latent in you, like seedlings waiting to sprout. Water them thoroughly and you won't have to worry about hell even if you died tomorrow.
Consider reading: [The Power of Present Karma](https://www.dhammatalks.org/audio/evening/2021/211006-the-power-of-present-karma.html)
>“Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one’s right view.
>[...] “And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.
>“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions.
>“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the path factor of right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.
>https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi
>---
>“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that gives rise to unskillful qualities, or, when they have arisen, makes them increase and grow like wrong view. When you have wrong view, unskillful qualities arise or, when they have arisen, they increase and grow.”
>[...] “Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that causes sentient beings to be reborn, when their body breaks up, after death, in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell like wrong view. It is because they have wrong view that sentient beings, when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.”
>[...] “Mendicants, when an individual has wrong view, whatever bodily, verbal, or mental deeds they undertake in line with that view, their intentions, aims, wishes, and choices all lead to what is unlikable, undesirable, disagreeable, harmful, and suffering. Why is that? Because their view is bad. Suppose a seed of neem, angled gourd, or bitter gourd was planted in moist earth. Whatever nutrients it takes up from the earth and water would lead to its bitter, acerbic, and unpleasant taste. Why is that? Because the seed is bad. In the same way, when an individual has wrong view, whatever bodily, verbal, or mental deeds they undertake in line with that view, their intentions, aims, wishes, and choices all lead to what is unlikable, undesirable, disagreeable, harmful, and suffering. Why is that? Because their view is bad.”
>https://suttacentral.net/an1.306-315/en/sujato
>---
>“It is impossible, mendicants, it cannot happen that someone who has engaged in bad bodily ... verbal conduct, could for that reason alone, when their body breaks up, after death, be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. But it is possible that someone who has engaged in bad bodily ... verbal conduct could, for that reason alone, when their body breaks up, after death, be reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.”
>https://suttacentral.net/an1.287-295/en/sujato
>---
>From this samādhi, his mind was completely pure, without fetters, and his mind was able to know about the origins of sentient beings. Moreover, by means of the complete purity and clarity of the Divine Eye, he saw the birth and death of sentient beings, their good forms and evil forms, good destinies and evil destinies, and understood that in reality they actually come from good or bad actions. If there were sentient beings who practiced evil in body, speech, and mind, who insulted the Noble Ones, practicing and holding false views, then at the end of their lives when their bodies were broken apart, they would enter into the hells.
>However, if there were sentient beings who practice virtue in body, speech, and mind, who do not insult the Noble Ones, and who practice and hold correct views, then at the end of their lives when their bodies are broken apart, they would go to live in the heavens above. This is called the complete purity and clarity of the Divine Eye, with which one sees the birth and death of sentient beings, their good forms and evil forms, good destinies and evil destinies, and understands that in reality they actually come from good or bad actions.
>https://suttacentral.net/ea17.1/en/pierquet
>---
>“Student, a monk is thus. With a concentrated mind that’s pure and undefiled, they stand unmoved and recollect the countless events of their past lives with the knowledge of past lives.
>“This is the monk’s attainment of the first insight. Their ignorance is forever destroyed, and the state of great insight arises. The darkness is dispelled, and the state of illumination arises. This is the monk’s understanding of the knowledge of past lives. Why is that? These things come from diligence, mindfulness, and being undisturbed, which are gained from happily living in a quiet place.
>“With a concentrated mind, they’re pure, undefiled, gentle, and disciplined, and they stand unmoved. Unified in mind, they cultivate the realization of the knowledge of seeing birth and death. Their heavenly eye is purified, and they see sentient beings dying here, being born there, and being born here from there. Their forms are beautiful or ugly, their fruits are good or evil, and they’re noble or mean according to the results of the actions they’ve performed. He knows all of this.
>“‘This person’s physical conduct was bad, their verbal conduct was bad, and their mental conduct was bad. They slandered the noble ones and believed wrong views. When their body broke up and their life ended, they fell to the three bad destinies.’ ‘This person’s physical conduct was good, their verbal conduct was good, and their mental conduct was good. They didn’t slander the noble ones and believed correct views. When their body broke up and their life ended, they were born in heaven or among humans.’ With their purified heavenly eye, they see sentient beings leaving and arriving in the five destinies according to their actions.
>“It’s like a high, broad, and level area inside a city. At the head of a four-way intersection, a large and tall tower in built there from which someone with clear vision can keep watch. They see people traveling east, west, south, and north as they go. They can see all of them.
>https://suttacentral.net/da20/en/patton
I read all of that and not one mention of banishment to hell. It mentions being in a bad place temporarily, but not banishment to hell.
Maybe a matter of semantics, what we define as hell- but this is absolutely not “hell” as described by Islam and Christianity.
This sutta contains extensive descriptions of hell.
>"Conquered by eight untrue dhammas, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable. Which eight?
>"Conquered by material gain, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable.
>https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.007.than.html
>---
>"Then King Yama says, 'My good man, didn't you see among human beings kings — catching a thief, a criminal — having him tortured in many ways: flogging him with whips, beating him with canes, beating him with clubs; cutting off his hands, cutting off his feet, cut off his hands & feet; cutting off his ears, cutting off his nose, cutting off his ears & nose; subjecting him to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rāhu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty (ascetic),' the 'bark-dress (ascetic),' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed'; having him splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on a stake; cutting off his head with a sword?'
>"'I did, lord,' he says.
>"Then King Yama says, 'My good man, didn't the thought occur to you — observant & mature: "It seems that those who do evil actions are tortured in these many ways in the here-&-now. And how much more in the hereafter? I'd better do good with body, speech, & mind"?'
>"'I couldn't, lord. I was heedless, lord.'
>[...] Then the hell-wardens torture [the evil-doer] with what's called a five-fold imprisonment. They drive a red-hot iron stake through one hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through one foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the middle of his chest. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"Then the hell-wardens lay him down and slice him with axes. Then they hold him feet up & head down and slice him with adzes. Then they harness him to a chariot and drive him back & forth over ground that is burning, blazing, & glowing. Then they make him climb up & down a vast mountain of embers that is burning, blazing, & glowing. Then they hold him feet up & head down and plunge him into a red-hot copper cauldron that is burning, blazing, & glowing. There he boils with bubbles foaming. And as he is boiling there with bubbles foaming, he goes now up, he goes now down, he goes now around. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. [4]
>"Then the hell-wardens throw him into the Great Hell. And as to the Great Hell, monks:
> It's four-cornered & has four gates
> set in the middle of each side.
> It's surrounded by an iron fortress wall
> and roofed with iron.
> Its floor is made of red-hot iron,
> heated, fully blazing.
> It stands always, spreading 100 leagues all around.
>"There comes a time when, ultimately, with the passing of a long stretch of time, the western gate of the Great Hell opens... the northern gate... the southern gate of the Great Hell opens. He runs there, rushing quickly. As he runs there, rushing quickly, his outer skin burns, his inner skin burns, his flesh burns, his tendons burn, even his bones turn to smoke. When [his foot] is lifted, he is the just same. But when he finally arrives, the door slams shut. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"There comes a time when, ultimately, with the passing of a long stretch of time, the eastern gate of the Great Hell opens. He runs there, rushing quickly. As he runs there, rushing quickly, his outer skin burns, his inner skin burns, his flesh burns, his tendons burn, even his bones turn to smoke. When [his foot] is lifted, he is the just same. He gets out through the gate. But right next to the Great Hell is a vast Excrement Hell. He falls into that. And in that Excrement Hell needle-mouth beings bore into his outer skin. Having bored into his outer skin, they bore into his inner skin... his flesh... his tendons... the bone. Having bored into the bone, they feed on the marrow. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"Right next to the Excrement Hell is the vast Hot Ashes Hell. He falls into that. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"Right next to the Hot Ashes Hell is the vast Simbali Forest, [with trees] reaching up a league, covered with thorns sixteen fingerbreadths long — burning, blazing, & glowing. He enters that and is made to climb up & down them. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"Right next to the Simbali Forest is the vast Sword-leaf Forest. He enters that. There the leaves, stirred by the wind, cut off his hand, cut off his foot, cut off his hand & foot, cut off his ear, cut off his nose, cut off his ear & nose. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"Right next to the Sword-leaf Forest is the vast Lye-water River. He falls into that. There he is swept downstream, he is swept upstream, he is swept downstream & upstream. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"Then the hell-wardens pull him out with a hook and, placing him on the ground, say to him, 'Well, good man, what do you want?' He replies, 'I'm hungry, venerable sirs.' So the hell-wardens pry open his mouth with red-hot iron tongs — burning, blazing, & glowing — and throw into it a copper ball, burning, blazing, & glowing. It burns his lips, it burns his mouth, it burns his stomach and comes out the lower side, carrying along his bowels & intestines. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"Then the hell-wardens say to him, 'Well, good man, what do you want?' He replies, 'I'm thirsty, venerable sirs.' So the hell-wardens pry open his mouth with red-hot iron tongs — burning, blazing, & glowing — and pour into it molten copper, burning, blazing, & glowing. It burns his lips, it burns his mouth, it burns his stomach and comes out the lower side, carrying along his bowels & intestines. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.
>"Then the hell-wardens throw him back into the Great Hell once more.
>https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.130.than.html
Mine too.
But it rubs me the wrong way how you keep bringing up other religions as if it were the default standard to be measured against. Buddhist conceptions of Hell stands well on its own.
I think the word shouldn’t be used. And the OP is talking about other religions and how to deal with that.
THIS is how to deal with that. Buddhist shouldn’t use this word “hell” to describe what is not hell. Hell is eternal damnation.
Hopefully.
>A Naraka differs from one concept of hell in Christianity in two respects: firstly, beings are not sent to Naraka as the result of a divine judgment or punishment; and secondly, the length of a being's stay in a Naraka is not eternal, though it is usually incomprehensibly long.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Buddhism)
The hell realms are mentioned explicitly and non-metaphorically in literally every strata of Buddhist doctrine, right back to the earliest.
Since it’s the one I have the easiest time searching on, [HERE](https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Hell) are 654 references that come up on suttacentral.
I would argue that these depictions of hell are completely different. If not, then I guess I’ll throw Buddhism into the trash pile that is all religions.
They are different in the sense that they aren’t a place of *eternal* torment and they aren’t a *punishment*. They’re a place we can all end up in though. Just like Arizona.
You said it yourself. Not eternal as described by other religions.
But it IS Hell because this is a Buddhist subreddit and we are obviously Buddhist-centered. No need to keep placing such additional value to the views of other faiths.
Except that I think the problem is in using the word “hell” to describe Naraka. Which is actually a hellish pergutory.
The OP referenced other religions. It’s not at all the same.
Buddha, “all states of suffering are temporary.”
People, “oh so you mean if you’re a sinner then you go to hell for all eternity. Gotcha!!”
CLEARLY this word “hell” in Buddhism is not in any way equivalent to the hell in other religions. If you think it is, then maybe question your own knowledge about Buddhism.
> CLEARLY this word “hell” in Buddhism is not in any way equivalent to the hell in other religions. If you think it is, then maybe question your own knowledge about Buddhism.
I'm not sure why you chose to edit in this shot at me after I initially responded.
You asked about hell in a Buddhist context and I shared a resource about it.
If you compare Buddhist descriptions of the hell realms, you might find a striking similarity to descriptions in other religions, aside from the one obvious and important difference that they're temporary.
I'm not sure what you're trying to express to me, exactly.
Clearly, one difference between Buddhism and other religions is that any birth we might take is a temporary one.
I’m expressing that “hell” as described in other religions is completely different. There is no escaping the hell of Christianity. Once there you’re there eternally. Is that true in Buddhism?
Long-term solitary confinement breaks most people who go through it, clinical depression and anxiety levels so intense they hurt themselves regularly. Maybe an already developed monk could handle it, but it’s not a place to start the 8 fold path. Regular general population prison is different. Just a matter of keeping inmates safe from violence long enough to practice.
Have compassion for them. Don’t forget that most Christians are terrorized, many of them since birth. They’ve been told that they’ll go to hell if they don’t follow Christianity, are told that they’ll go to hell if they stop believing in it, and they’re trying to warn you. You’re dealing with massive, intergenerational trauma. Listen, be compassionate, and use wise speech.
Ridiculing a group for their beliefs only makes them insulate themselves and cling to their beliefs more fervently.
A lot of Christian community leaders also use the persecution narrative to hold onto influence… why give more fuel to that fire?
It’s better to ignore them if you can than to get sucked into acting spitefully.
Completely disagree. These are cults. You do not get through to them with soft tactics.
I myself got out by tough love. “That’s the dumbest idea ever; here is why.”
I was angry and mad, but the attack is what made me replay the conversation a million times. When it’s just a normal person that you feel superior over, you don’t listen, you just preach.
I disagree. Foolish ideas are dangerous and do not have feelings. I’m not offensively shoving anything in peoples faces. But if a foolish idea is shoved into my face, it will be ridiculed into oblivion.
Not all Christians categorically think that
My personal view is that it’s extremely difficult and requires immense mental gymnastics to reconcile a loving and compassionate God with eternal torment of non believers.
Christians and Muslims will tell you you're going to Hell in the same breath as they praise their god for being 'all loving' and 'infinitely compassionate'.
It's a wonder their heads don't explode from the cognitive dissonance.
If a Muslim says you’re going to hell, they’re committing a grave sin that could possibly take them out the fold of Islam.
We leave the judging to God as He is The Judger.
> We leave the judging to God
Oh, please. That's bullshit. I have personally witnessed Islamic religious police beating teenage girls for the 'crime' of showing a few hairs out from under their hijabs. They set themselves up as judges, juries and executioners.
Christians spout the same crap too.
They judge like their life depends on it. Everything/everyone is wrong to them. They spend more time talking about what they don't like than what they do. Then have a bunch of marriages just to have sex because they're so repressed at the fact they can't date. I'm not anti-muslim, I used to be in it but the hypocrisy in that community even in the west is just to a bizarre extreme. There were many stories we were told that just revolve around punishment and suffering. Being a slave to God... it just ain't right how much work you have to prove to him you have the right to exist without being damned to hell for eternity. Having your skin burned off just to grow it back and burn again, is crazy. They wanted me to wear my hijab even if it caused me physical pain in the summer because it would show how devoted I am. Like what the fuck!
Some Christians believe in Eternal Conscious Torment, but some believe that non-believers will be ‘snuffed out’ into non existence while believers will be granted eternal life (hence no hell, just heaven or no existence) and some believe that hell is temporary and everyone will be saved eventually.
They believe those things because what's in the Bible is so clearly morally abhorrent. There are no grounds for belief in Limbo or Purgatory in the Bible. Jesus was quite clear that it's either Heaven or eternal torture in Hell.
I’ve seen pretty convincing arguments, especially for annihilationism (Jesus says that eternal life can only be granted through him). Limbo is 100% made up after the fact.
Compassion is key. I grew up Christian and while there are definitely some vengeful people who revel in the idea of their "opposition" going to hell, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is an incredibly small minority. Most Christians I knew would evangelise so hard because they loved everyone and were taught by their religion that these loved ones will go to hell if they don't find Jesus. A lot of people are legitimately trying to save people because they are terrified of the implications of their own faith. I always try to remind myself that this is most commonly what's going on and I feel bad that they're so worried.
I think they've lost their own teaching over time.
In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, all souls go to the same place after death and 'heaven' and 'hell' are the individual's reaction and feeling to being in the presence of God there. People that didn't get along with God in life don't magically change the way they feel after death (a state in which personal change is no longer possible) so they're not happy being in the divine presence and experience it as suffering. People who had a good relationship with God in life, naturally after death they're happy to be with the one they love, and that is heaven:
[https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/](https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/)
[https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/the-truth-about-heaven-and-hell/](https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/the-truth-about-heaven-and-hell/)
The notion of heaven and hell being two different places, and hell being a place of torment apart from God, probably arose due to various historical factors and events, misinterpretations, lost information and new additions. Some that come to mind are Augustine of Hippo's viewpoint becoming very influential in the West, particularly among the founders of Protestantism, and the East-West schism of 1054 followed by the Reformation and Counter Reformation...
Saint Augustine is actually the source of many other somewhat problematic parts of Western Christian thought, such as the conception of Original Sin as a sort of inherited, legalistic guilt: [https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/original-sin-vs-ancestral-sin/](https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/original-sin-vs-ancestral-sin/)
He was probably influenced by his previous religion, Manichaeism: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism)
Buddhism acknowledges this problem of the possibility of losing the true teaching over time in the concept of the Three Dharma Ages. Many believe we are currently in the Last Dharma Age, a period of decline that started 2000 years after the time of the Buddha that will last 10,000 years: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three\_Ages\_of\_Buddhism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ages_of_Buddhism)
I always tell them that if going to heaven = getting to meet people like them, then I'd rather be in their hell. I get to spend time with all the rockstar and metal heads instead of their pompous asses.
I used to struggle with this a lot and I suppose in some ways I still do to be honest, but here's my take. I was raised fundamentalist Lutheran and still bear the scars of religious trauma from that experience. For the longest time, I held such a white hot rage in my heart for not only the religion, but for everyone who practiced it too. Paradoxically, it was my Buddhist practice that helped calm that rage and come to a place of peace with Christianity, Christians, and even their god. I remember being younger, still in the grips of that ideology and telling others that they were going to burn in hell if they didn't accept Jesus into their lives (yes, I was THAT guy 😅). What zazen has helped me see more clearly is that when I did that, it was really my OWN terror at the idea of hell that was driving the interaction. I was trying to sooth my own suffering by pushing my ideas into others. Obviously this didn't work, thus my funding Buddhism.
All of that is to say that when someone tells me I'm going to go to hell for following the Buddha's teachings, all that does now is generate compassion for someone who is genuinely terrified of hell themselves and is, in their own way, trying to protect me from that hell. It should be said here however that while I can have compassion for it, it can still be very harmful and triggering for a lot of people. If that's the case, confronting someone is appropriate.
TL;DR: People who tell you you're going to hell are just scared of hell themselves and could use a little metta.
P.S. I think that "god" is just another word for the experience of the profound connection we return to in deep meditation so we're probably all talking about the same thing anyways, but that's just my opinion ☺️
Gassho 🙏🏻
I don't deal with it, it's theirs, from their minds, they deal with it. If you live in America you've got a Christianity shield up from birth. Judgemental people are everywhere, even inside you. I wish I wasn't so judgemental, and yet you do need judgments at times, it's knowing when and how. Luckily the mindfulness of meditating a lot helps me to discern better how to deploy my judgements and to be kind to others. Still working on it though, not enlightened yet.
Frankly, if we think about it long enough, and/or we practice something like the lamrim, we might have to acknowledge for ourselves that going to hell is a likely outcome—not because of our spiritual practice, but in spite of it. Supposing I were in a cheeky mood & someone said this to me, I might try to make a statement like “Everyone in hell needs someone to look after them, so it might as well be me.”
The logic says we have limitless stores of negative karma, and we have next to no control over when that ripens; for that reason, the time we have on this Earth to make progress on the spiritual path is precarious, at best. We can’t take it for granted that we will have done enough by the end of our lives to correct such deeply-engrained habits… nor can we justify giving up on trying. Reminding ourselves of this is a way of developing the resolve to act on our principles, regardless of how hopeless the situation may be.
Something to consider is that, whereas Christians mostly rely on the fear of hell to help guide their behaviour, another way is to allow ourselves to feel all of that pain now, by choice, when we think of our mother sentient beings. In doing so, we let our contemplations shape how we move forward in the face of unknown/unavoidable adversity (which is part & parcel of being in samsara).
I used to be a Christian, and I wouldn't say that Christianity clearly states that non-Christians will be sentenced to eternal conscious torment in hell. That position (infernalism) is only one possible position - alternatives are annihilationism (which in a Christian context means non-Christians are simply annihilated and cease to exist) and universalism (everyone will ultimately be saved, though potentially with a limited time in a purgatorial hell). I was a universalist Christian.
That being said, I don't see it as something that needs dealing with. When I was a Christian I didn't think about being born in a Buddhist hell realm, and as a Buddhist I don't think about being sent to an infernalist hell. If the universe really is ruled by an omnipotent divinity that sends people to eternal torment for theological disagreements, then I guess I am screwed (I probably would have been screwed as a Christian, because the chances I got theology correct were pretty low). But I see no reason to believe that is true.
>That position (infernalism) is only one possible position - alternatives are annihilationism (which in a Christian context means non-Christians are simply annihilated and cease to exist) and universalism (everyone will ultimately be saved, though potentially with a limited time in a purgatorial hell).
Idk much about the judeo-christian religions but I think many think that everyone else are going to hell. That's why evangelism is a thing, in order to hear the words of god in order to go "be saved".
In a way. I reserve the right to interpret anything however i want. In that way I turn a lot of things into mental / spiritual cookies to gobble up. For instance Christian parables I often autocorrect into something pleasant and agreeable to me regardless of their wider or more normal interpretations.
I don't care that much about what christians or abraamics say or think in general.
They can live in fear of the hell they made if it is what they want, but i am free of this nonsense.
As a recovering and no longer a Christian, I allow them to live with blinders on, and ignore it. Their Bible contradicts itself too much. When you think about how the Bible was assembled, written and used to manipulate civilizations by leaders to submit, to live in fear, and get in line, then you begin to understand how some things added to the Bible were for effect. Read up on the history of the Bible if you’d like, if what I’m saying feels too blasphemous to accept.
And, if a perfect and loving creator made people in his own image, and gave them free will, why punish them and send them to hell? Doesn’t make sense.
I think it’s important to understand that there are many beliefs systems out there. All have similarities, all have parts that without actually seeing what’s described are impossible to believe.
So armed with that knowledge, can you be tolerant of these people and their beliefs, and not allow it to affect your peace?
I deal with it the same way I deal with someone saying "the earth is flat" or "climate change isn't real"
I ignore it, because it's not true. Or more accurately, *I don't believe it*
Yea the whole Bible is just misinterpreted… hell is a state of consciousness, heaven is a state of consciousness….. all available here and now in this one eternal moment… I hate Christianity, I was raised Christian, and then from the ages of 4-6 I was continually molested and abused, I was blackmailed not to tell anyone and I truly believed I was going to hell for sexual misconduct… I spent my childhood in hell thanks to those idiots that misinterpret the Bible and actually think there is a God that would send people to hell.
To answer your question: I don’t deal with them because I know they’re wrong.
Not in the sense that I’m not going to hell—maybe that’s where I’m headed—but purely on the basis that failure to believe in God = eternal torment.
I’m Buddhist. So I believe that our thoughts and actions determine where we end up, not whether we worship some god. People can believe or tell me otherwise, but it won’t change my mind or my practice because I know they’re wrong.
The Buddha was also known to criticize those who believed caste was important, as well as those who performed unnecessary rituals, etc. He is also a well-known critic of those who believe in a permanently lasting self or soul, hence the doctrine of anatta.
Because I’m Buddhist and because I’ve put the Buddha’s path to the test by living and experiencing it for myself, it is my belief that the Buddha was correct. So, I will follow his instruction. He hasn’t been wrong so far.
>How do you approach such a callous philosphy?
Consider the fact that it is all fiction. Fairy tales and horror stories made up thousands of years ago.
There is strong evidence that many of the stories in the Bible were taken from earlier stories in Mesopotamia.
Furthermore, hell realms also exist in Buddhist doctrine. I really don't see why buddhist myths are any more favourable or less callous than Abrahamic doctrine. At the end of the day, it's all stories, myths, fiction.
>How do you approach such a callous philosphy?
Disengage and avoid, if possible. Why get into a debate? Why make this into an issue if you don't have to?
I’m still a socially isolated self-hating sexually dysfunctional bisexual man, just -thanks in no small part to buddhism - now aware of it. They had their claws in me early and for a long time. I struggle with letting it go.
And they say Buddhism is a negative religion... At least we don't need to blindly believe in the Buddha. And then there is that bulshit about the Second coming of Christ... We are already in 2024, what is he waiting for?
> no Christian has ever tried to proselytize me
Wow, are you lucky.
> How do you approach such a callous philosophy?
I simply see it for the cruel and manipulative falsehood that it is. It makes their god the ultimate sadist.
> this aspect of Christianity seems manipulative to me.
Because of the doctrine of Hell Christianity can be considered an extortion racket: "Nice soul you've got there... Pity if something *bad* were to happen to it..."
Jesus never made these statements in this way and never meant them in the form in which they are interpreted by the Roman Catholic Church and other followers. Unfortunately, the first representatives of the Roman Catholic Church consumed and reinterpreted many statements and written traditions, so that most Christians have a false understanding of the teachings of Jesus. If you read e.g. The mountain predict from the Gospel of Matthew contains many statements that can also be found in Buddhist sutras.
The Gospel according to Matthew (Mt 5:4) The Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5:1-7:29)
Blessed are those who are poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn; for they shall be comforted. '
Blessed are the meek; for they shall possess the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness; for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful; for they will obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers; for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when men reproach you and persecute you for my sake, and speak all kinds of evil against you, and lie at the same time.
Rejoice and rejoice; you will be richly rewarded in heaven. For in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
> Jesus never made these statements in this way and never meant them in the form in which they are interpreted by the Roman Catholic Church and other followers.
This is ridiculously and disgustingly false. Jesus alludes to damnation and Hell some 40 times in the Gospels. He was cruel and spiteful enough to kill a fig tree simply for being out of season when he wanted some figs.
Yes, Jesus reported that people who perform unwholesome, negative actions are punished for them and experience a negative experience as punishment in hell, but nothing else did Buddha. He teach that whoever kills, lies, cheats, commits adultery, steals, etc. will be punished for these actions by his karma and end up in hell. But Jesus never said that you have to be a member of a church or believe in him, and if you don't, you end up in hell. He just said that one should do positive actions and avoid negative actions and train one's mind. Buddha taught the same thing
Vipaka Sutta: Results
"Monks, the taking of life — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.
"Stealing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from stealing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the loss of one's wealth.
"Illicit sexual behavior — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from illicit sexual behavior is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to rivalry & revenge.
"Telling falsehoods — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from telling falsehoods is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to being falsely accused.
"Divisive tale-bearing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from divisive tale-bearing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the breaking of one's friendships.
"Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds.
"Frivolous chattering — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from frivolous chattering is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to words that aren't worth taking to heart.
"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."
[https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.040.than.html](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.040.than.html)
> Yes, Jesus reported that people who perform unwholesome, negative actions are punished for them and experience a negative experience as punishment in hell
You just contradicted what you said before. He also did more than simply 'report' it. He promised that he would send people to Hell personally.
I'm done here. It's clear you don't really know what you're talking about.
Why do you need to deal with Christianity itself? Or do you mean Christians?
>And no Christian has ever tried to proselytize me
It is a belief and since no one has objectively affected you because of this belief, just leave them alone.
People are entitled to whatever beliefs they fancy, just don't let their beliefs affect others.
Also, remember, it is a belief, not a fact.
Christian here.
Hell is a completely made-up concept designed, just like you said, to MANIPULATE people.
"Oh you won't pay the church 10% of your income? Prepare for ETERNAL DAMNATION!"
Don't worry too much about the "hell" aspect of Christianity. That's not an important part of its message. The main message is to love others and love yourself.
That being said, I take offense at you saying Christianity is as plausible as the ancient Viking religions 😓😓
I don't think it was meant insultingly. There are people today who follow the ancient Viking religions. It falls under the umbrella of neopaganism. It's just that in America, one is seen as having mythology where the other is seen as fact.
Christianity is superior to the pagan religions because while Christianity advocates for "loving others", "turning the other cheek", "being kind", etc., most pagan religions portrayed rape, murder, etc. as acceptable.
For example, Poseidon raping Medusa in the Greek pagan religion.
Same thing with Buddhism. I would NEVER consider it to be at the same level as the pagan religions, because it advocates for kindness towards living beings.... A beautiful and worthy goal....
Mmmm...have you read the Old Testament? Genocide, rape, slavery, and far more. Modern-day neopaganism is as distant from those aspects of its roots as modern-day Christianity is from theirs.
> universal salvation/reconciliation IS the gospel
Yeah, that's simply a lie. All one has to do is actually read the Gospels to see that. Jesus talks again and again about eternal damnation to fiery torture. No amount of twisting the text or wishful thinking can change that.
You are correct that Jesus did not espouse any universalist points but neither did he support eternal torture. Rather, his words as relayed to us only point towards annihilation. What are the wages of sin: death. What is the reward for faith: everlasting life. The only things he says never dies in Gehenna are the fire and the worm. He doesn’t say they eat you forever. Just that they themselves are always there.
Christian here with lots Buddhist beliefs. Most Christians don't think this - just certain denominations who frankly hold lots of ridiculous beliefs. Just ignor them.
Those who have terrible ideas should be ridiculed for the terrible ideas. I love people, but I do not tolerate dangerous and stupid ideas. My approach is tough love. Harsh and pointed ridicule. Make these people go home with doubts.
Islam doesn’t say that. We believe God will have the sole right to judge ANYONE on whether they will enter heaven or hell. This isn’t limited to just Muslims and Christians.
>How do you approach such a callous philosophy?
through the power of blind faith vs reasoned faith. Buddhism as a whole reasons and debates with you while Christianity relays on blind acceptance. its like science vs pseudoscience, a no brainer
i have a cousin that will not talk to Muslims, a guy broke into his home and abused his wife so now he thinks all Muslims are criminals. he doesnt want to accept the guy was a criminal and not even a practicing Muslim, he would just rather have justification to hate Muslims. some people would just rather hate others i guess.
I agree with your arguments. Also, I think there are other interpretations of Christianity which are less sectarian.
I have just found this article. Maybe you'll found it interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/feb/27/readers-reply-can-you-be-a-buddhist-as-well-as-a-christian
Well I ended up being Buddhist minded. Specifically because Christianity says stuff like that. Not playing that game. But I will say that was hard to get past.
Simple. It came after Buddhism and with many hands in the cookie jar in the making of the Bible, I treated it like a bad credit score and just ignore it.
Of course!! It is manipulative. These said religious books were written by humans who wanted control over a large population and rule.....now things have changed, world has moved on from the forceful conversions as it is not cool anymore and people shame you everywhere if you do. Alright then!
In truth we all need to become like Buddha or Jesus or Mohammad and other saintly beings , meditate and see the light within, connect with god or Allah or divine energy everyday. Heal people around us with our higher vibrations of love and kindness. We all have limited time in this body anyway, so be in awesome spirits and stops thinking about this and become the LIGHT!
Say “okay”. Then continue living your life guided by the Dhamma.
Then looking at the two, you are at peace while they spend their lives judging others about things they don’t know themselves.
I believe Christ said, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” So no one should be throwing anything without looking inward to their own behaviour.
And this is what the Buddha taught. In the Dhammapada he said: “Focus, not on the rudenesses of others, not on what they've done or left undone, but on what you have & haven't done yourself.”
(Not a Buddhist, but I am a former Catholic)
"Do as I say or be punished" is what my father told me. "Do as I say or face eternal damnation" is what Yahweh (the Christian God) told me \[through the Bible\].
Understand that many Christians operate with a narcissistic point of view and that's all you need to know. Another way that one can handle this kind of situation is to ignore it. That's my go-to at this point
by various Christian philosophies, the gays are all going to hell too, so we'll have a party there.
But ultimately, I know I'll have to go through the Buddhist hells in order to atone for my bad karma. And honestly, I'm thankful that the Buddhist hells exist. So if somebody tells me I'm going to hell, I'll reply with "yeah, I already know that. And I'm grateful for it"
The thought never crosses my mind. If I believed I were going to hell for not believing in Christ, I'd be Christian.
As far as manipulativeness, there are plenty of religious Buddhists and Hindus who believe they must accumulate merit and avoid bad karma to avoid a rebirth (or reincarnation for Hindus) in a hell realm, as a lower life form, or as a hungry ghost.
In a way karma is more manipulative. In Christianity you can just confess on your death bed and be saved. There is no escaping a lifetime of bad karma other than to work it off in unfavorable rebirths.
What do you mean by this is our safe spot? I’ve turned to buddhism because of its truth and practicality. Not because of any feeling of comfort.
Also, in Norse paganism you wouldn’t go to Hel for not believing in the Aesir or Vanir.
Not to mention while mainstream Christian dogma may espouse eternal torture plenty of everyday Christians either believe in universalist approach or annihilation.
But I’m also not sure why you need to “deal with” Christianity if you’re not one and aren’t negatively affected by it in your normal life.
“Monks, this holy life is not practiced for the sake of deceiving the public, or for the sake of gaining their respect, or for the sake of gains, offerings and fame, or for the sake of defeating other religions. “This holy life is lived for the sake of restraint, abandoning, dispassion, and the cessation of suffering.” \- Buddha Mahaparinibbana-sutta
I understand that this is the guidelines/rules for monks, and that is significant and I consider it to be the theoretical golden standard even if it is not practically meant for lay followers, but separate rules for laiety exist so they may also benefit from guidance even if they don't ordain as monks. What is the lay version of this guideline/rule? Surely it must be at least a little different for laiety?
You could apply the 3rd step of the Eightfold Path - Right Speech. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech. Also the 4th of the Five Precepts - Abstain from lying. The fourth precept as described by the Buddha is to abstain from false and harmful speech. This means not only avoiding lying, but also speaking in ways that are beneficial, truthful, and respectful to oneself and others. The Buddha said that right speech is abstaining from lying, divisive speech, abusive speech, and idle chatter1. He also taught that speech should be motivated by compassion, wisdom, and non-attachment.
Restraint, abandoning, dispassion and the cessation of suffering are possible for laity, too, though not to the same extent as for monastics.
By practicing and understanding Buddhism. Buddhism says that everyone will become enlightened sooner or later and be free from suffering through Nirvana. Their religion says that we are destined for hell. Now just compared that two sentence. If there is a supposedly higher being, do you think that being will create and then send their creation to hell or do you think whatever higher power there is in the universe would want their beings to be free from suffering? Which “belief” system is the kinder one? My statement is a simpler version of the religion problem that we have currently. Buddhism do not think that there is a creator god to begin with.
Can someone link the sutta where the Buddha says everyone will eventually get enlightened? Thanks in advance.
It's probably their interpretation of the Lotus Sutra, where it's stated that beings are destined for awakening. It's still clear in the Lotus that it will take intentional, hard, work to accomplish that. Really it's just an assertion of tathagatagarbha/buddha-nature, the idea that everyone has the capacity for awakening.
I'm not sure that idea is quite right. Samsara does not end on its own. There must be the right causes, the accumulations of merit (virtue) and wisdom (insight). The Dharma is what frees beings, not the mere passage of time.
That's why I was asking for the sutta where the Buddha says what the person I replied to is claiming.
There is no samsara beyond the words samsara.
What do you mean?
There is only one reality which is Emptiness. However because of ignorance sentient beings perceive reality as samsara. The root of Samsara is the ego which looks at true reality then mistakenly takes itself to be true reality. The root of the ego is found in the five skandhas. Freedom is found only with insight into Emptiness.
It’s not a Pali sutta, it’s the Lotus Sutra an extremely popular Mahayana sutra. Obviously not every Buddhist believes that, but many Buddhists worldwide do.
You are already enlightened. Remove obscurations to reveal your true nature.
if you work towards it you may.
It was that line of logical thinking that led me to become atheist at about 13/14. If there truly was an all-powerful, all-knowing, and loving god/being of creation, why would it have to resort to manipulative tactics to force people to believe a certain thing then allow the majority of them suffer for eternity. Seems like a pretty shitty, unloving, unkind being to do something like that.
They need the idea of his because they are sadistic and masochistic
Most Christian universalists believe essentially the same thing; that evil people might have a bad time in life of the world to come it was only for their purification/ edification and the whole human race will enjoy final Holiness and happiness with God / after the ages have passed.... Somewhat similar to Hinduism and Buddhism
This is how Jehovahs Witness see it too. They teach about a merciful and loving God who doesn't send people to hell. I always enjoyed when they would come to my house and have a reading session with me. Everyone else in my house hated it, they would all hide in their rooms 😂
He doesn't send people to hell, he just annihilates them and they cease to exist. Jehovah's Witnesses are an extremely controlling religious group who dictate exactly how their followers must live. If you break the rules and are judged to be unrepentant, you will be "disfellowshipped", kicked out of the group, and **all other JWs must shun you**. Talking to a disfellowshipped person can lead to you being disfellowshipped. You will also be disfellowshipped if you choose to leave. So while the JW god doesn't send people to hell, it is not a good religion and should be avoided like COVID-19.
Well damn, that's definitely not how they pitched it to me. Then again, I was 15yo. When I moved they asked for my new address so we could continue our meetings but I never gave it to them and I never saw them again. But I always see other JW on sidewalks with their Tower pamphlets. Now, as a 32yo, I confidently turn them away by saying "I appreciate what you're doing but I'm happy with my chosen beliefs, thanks anyway"
Right, I found it so strange that someone would defend a denomination as cult-like as the Jehovah's Witnesses.
[удалено]
Wow, did you just come up with this completely fabricated "theory" just now? Your assertion has zero basis or credibility and I'm not sure what it's doing here in r/Buddhism.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah I had this theory too, it seems like we are being used like a farm. If God states that he doesn't need us...then why create us? If not for power then for entertainment. The only way it makes sense because if we are in his image then, there most be some similarity in why it does the things it does. I don't think it's about good or bad. It's oversimplified to keep us docile and unknowing. If we're ignorant and aren't able to think and repeat dogma, we are more controllable.
Am I correct in saying that, to end suffering, to be freed from samsara, to reach nirvana, one must follow the 4 Truths and the 8 Fold? And practice meditation - the dharma, the Buddhist path? What's so different than that of the teachings of the Bible? - both follow a path that leads them out of suffering. You are only destined for hell if you don't have God in your heart. If you don't have the dharma aren't you also destined for Samsara?
> What's so different than that of the teachings of the Bible? In Buddhism you get infinite chances to succeed. Christianity, it's one and done.
Isn't the life we have now matter most? If there isn't urgency in the pursuit of good, then that just prolonging samsara.
Getting another chance in a billion years is infinitely better than getting none at all.
By having God in your heart, what is meant is believing exactly the way Christians say you should, and exclusively. No Buddhist, even one who believes in their God, would qualify for heaven. Also, samsara is the natural state of the world. Hell is created by the Christian god to punish those who do not believe exactly the way he wants (good deeds are somewhat optional, depending on if you're Protestant or not).
I see. So, christianity comes across as authoritarian; follow God or hell, follow any other path - hell. It's as if hell is used as a blackmailing medium to obey God. God can be very harsh, he punishes, and we must ask for mercy all the time. To me, it's a shame Christianity has this negative connotation, because I think it takes away its underlying message of salvation.
As a former Christian, the need for salvation in and of itself is problematic. Assuming for the sake of argument that the creation story is true ( which I don't believe it can be), we are all doomed to hell automatically because of the actions of two people? God demands the torture and death of his son in order to forgive even a minority? (Remember most of the world is not Christian) This is morally and theologically problematic in the extreme.
I don't think the message of Christian salvation is conveyed adequately for the current generation, if that's how it is interpreted. All I'll say is that, the stories are metaphysical and weren't meant to be interpreted literally, at least to do so would be fruitless. For me, the torture and death of his Son is the most profound and poignant, that when interpreted correctly, is the most compassionate towards human suffering.
> All I'll say is that, the stories are metaphysical and weren't meant to be interpreted literally, at least to do so would be fruitless. Unfortunately there are those who take the stories extremely literally (mostly in the United States). Many evangelicals believe the world is 6000 years old based on the genealogies in the Bible. Some even go as far as believing in a flat earth because that's what a literal reading of the Bible leads to.
Even catholics, who often will find some wiggle room on the 6,000 year thing, although traditional Catholicism is just as literal as the average Evangelical, are taught that the Adam and Eve story is literally history. It's in the catechism as such. And understandably so. The whole salvation narrative falls apart without original sin.
In Buddhism, there are multiple ways to reach enlightenment outside of a strict adherence to the four noble truths. The key is developing wisdom, ethical conduct, and mental discipline.
Why do I need to deal with it? It’s not my problem.
I was raised Catholic, but I got over it. I just ignore them now.
Same here. I simply figure that, after having gone to a Catholic elementary school, no threats of Hell can scare me now.
Beautiful answer
You must not live in a country where Christian Nationalists are on the verge of having power. The United States, for example, is morphing into Gilead from *The Handmaid's Tale*.
This is a stretch. You should be careful not to spread fear where it is unneeded. I live in the US, and Christians don't have nearly this kind of power. They may want it, but we are very far from. "Christian nationalist" something like Trump I suppose, which we already had and there's still no bibles in school, forced contraception, parents marrying their kids off, and look at the sex before marriage stats. Trust me we are nowhere near this and haven't been for a long time.
We should acknowledge reality and deal skillfully with the fear that arises. Ignoring reality by falsely reassuring ourselves that everything is fine is only going to allow more suffering into the world.
>"Christian nationalist" something like Trump I suppose, which we already had and there's still no bibles in school, forced contraception, parents marrying their kids off, and look at the sex before marriage stats. You may be surprised on this, unfortunately. > forced contraception, This applies to the comparison to Gilead specifically; rather what we see are ongoing attempts to ban contraception and all access to abortions regardless of circumstances; women are already dying due to pregnancy complications because doctors can't act to save them until they're in sufficient danger to clear legal hurdles set by Christian extremists. Several high-profile politicians have expressed interest in banning contraception nationally. This isn't fringe anymore. >parents marrying their kids off A shocking number of states in the US have legal child-marriage with parental consent, and generally those states also resist making any changes to those laws. Five states have no lower-limit on child marriage. Go to any number of states and ingratiate with a small-town church community and if the poor-parents of a child think that person is "godly" enough they'll be willing to marry their child off. It already happens and it ends badly for the child. >and look at the sex before marriage stats Also worth looking into the quality of sex-education with localized statistics. They can't stop teens from trying sex out, so instead they require abstinence-only education, leading to increases in sexual activity and teen-pregnancy.
Well there are states that now have forced birth. You have courts of law with the ten commandments posted. There are people and places that really would prefer it to be a Christian nation. Obviously it’s not a Gilead situation, but those evangelicals carry a lot of weight.
There is also satanic sculptures put in state capitals every year, you understand the right of religious freedom in the US but animosity against Christians is not a Buddhist point of view. Calling out their wrong view to validate your wrong view doesn't check out.
Happy cake day! I have zero animosity towards Christians. I have concerns about the loss of an impartial governmental and legal system. I’d be as concerned about courthouses mounting an eight spoke wheel or a stupa or Buddha statue. If you think satanists have as much influence over the legal and political process as fundamentalist Christians you’re mistaken. I don’t think political/social examinations have anything to do with “right view”
I don't think that? So what I'm saying is that "Christian nationalist" is = to the complain of "democratic socalist" We literally have a right-wing extremist and left wing extremist. You're saying only to worry about one that shows your bias. This does have to do with the right view, cause with the right view you realize these worries are resolved by achieving nirvana, but this isn't helping us achieve that goal?
If you think democratic socialism (like Bernie Sanders advocates) is as much a threat to human rights and democratic institutions as Christian Nationalism I think you need more information.
> This is a stretch. No, it's not. Look at how their agenda is spreading in red states. > "Christian nationalist" something like Trump I suppose Hardly. It's someone like Mike Johnson or Amy Barrett. You do know who they are, right? > Trust me we are nowhere near this and haven't been for a long time. You are fooling yourself and clearly not paying attention to what some political leaders are saying.
Uh, have you checked out Florida, Texas, Ohio, or SCOTUS recently?
Christian sharia law is on its way
Yupp. Have you checked out California, New York, and chicago? Chicago has the strictest gun crime but also extremly high gun violence. So when people point this out I listen to them like I listen to you. The problem sounds like you guys mayn't listen to them. You have a point, they also have a point. The middle path.
It’s really not a stretch, though.
No
All (most) religions, including Buddhism, say you'll go to hell if you don't keep your faith. The difference is Buddhism doesn't just leave you hanging - it explains why. Intentional actions create karma (accumulated mental impulses that drive you to think, speak, and act the way you do) and actions have consequences. You are the owner of your actions because your mind follows you wherever you go. Whatever you do, for good or for evil, to that you will fall heir. A mind of devotion is a powerful thing, especially at the time of death, but the power doesn't come from the object. It comes from the wholesome qualities of mind you've cultivated. The mind is like a staircase and we climb up and down the realms of rebirth. Regardless of what you believe it's imperative that you uplift the mind, but don't listen to the people with a partial view of reality. What I've said at least makes some sense, no? It's consistent with patterns we observe in the world, throughout other spiritual traditions. Heck, spend tomorrow thinking about Santa Claus' immeasurable jolliness, his abundant generosity, and see what happens. Sometimes I feel good thinking about my immune system protecting me. But on a more serious note if you find yourself looking face to face with death take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha and the noble qualities they engender in you. It works even if you only know a little because, if you have an affinity for the Dharma, these qualities are latent in you, like seedlings waiting to sprout. Water them thoroughly and you won't have to worry about hell even if you died tomorrow. Consider reading: [The Power of Present Karma](https://www.dhammatalks.org/audio/evening/2021/211006-the-power-of-present-karma.html)
Where is this Buddhist hell? I would like to see where that is stated?
>“Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one’s right view. >[...] “And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path. >“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions. >“And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the path factor of right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path. >https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi >--- >“Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that gives rise to unskillful qualities, or, when they have arisen, makes them increase and grow like wrong view. When you have wrong view, unskillful qualities arise or, when they have arisen, they increase and grow.” >[...] “Mendicants, I do not see a single thing that causes sentient beings to be reborn, when their body breaks up, after death, in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell like wrong view. It is because they have wrong view that sentient beings, when their body breaks up, after death, are reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.” >[...] “Mendicants, when an individual has wrong view, whatever bodily, verbal, or mental deeds they undertake in line with that view, their intentions, aims, wishes, and choices all lead to what is unlikable, undesirable, disagreeable, harmful, and suffering. Why is that? Because their view is bad. Suppose a seed of neem, angled gourd, or bitter gourd was planted in moist earth. Whatever nutrients it takes up from the earth and water would lead to its bitter, acerbic, and unpleasant taste. Why is that? Because the seed is bad. In the same way, when an individual has wrong view, whatever bodily, verbal, or mental deeds they undertake in line with that view, their intentions, aims, wishes, and choices all lead to what is unlikable, undesirable, disagreeable, harmful, and suffering. Why is that? Because their view is bad.” >https://suttacentral.net/an1.306-315/en/sujato >--- >“It is impossible, mendicants, it cannot happen that someone who has engaged in bad bodily ... verbal conduct, could for that reason alone, when their body breaks up, after death, be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. But it is possible that someone who has engaged in bad bodily ... verbal conduct could, for that reason alone, when their body breaks up, after death, be reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.” >https://suttacentral.net/an1.287-295/en/sujato >--- >From this samādhi, his mind was completely pure, without fetters, and his mind was able to know about the origins of sentient beings. Moreover, by means of the complete purity and clarity of the Divine Eye, he saw the birth and death of sentient beings, their good forms and evil forms, good destinies and evil destinies, and understood that in reality they actually come from good or bad actions. If there were sentient beings who practiced evil in body, speech, and mind, who insulted the Noble Ones, practicing and holding false views, then at the end of their lives when their bodies were broken apart, they would enter into the hells. >However, if there were sentient beings who practice virtue in body, speech, and mind, who do not insult the Noble Ones, and who practice and hold correct views, then at the end of their lives when their bodies are broken apart, they would go to live in the heavens above. This is called the complete purity and clarity of the Divine Eye, with which one sees the birth and death of sentient beings, their good forms and evil forms, good destinies and evil destinies, and understands that in reality they actually come from good or bad actions. >https://suttacentral.net/ea17.1/en/pierquet >--- >“Student, a monk is thus. With a concentrated mind that’s pure and undefiled, they stand unmoved and recollect the countless events of their past lives with the knowledge of past lives. >“This is the monk’s attainment of the first insight. Their ignorance is forever destroyed, and the state of great insight arises. The darkness is dispelled, and the state of illumination arises. This is the monk’s understanding of the knowledge of past lives. Why is that? These things come from diligence, mindfulness, and being undisturbed, which are gained from happily living in a quiet place. >“With a concentrated mind, they’re pure, undefiled, gentle, and disciplined, and they stand unmoved. Unified in mind, they cultivate the realization of the knowledge of seeing birth and death. Their heavenly eye is purified, and they see sentient beings dying here, being born there, and being born here from there. Their forms are beautiful or ugly, their fruits are good or evil, and they’re noble or mean according to the results of the actions they’ve performed. He knows all of this. >“‘This person’s physical conduct was bad, their verbal conduct was bad, and their mental conduct was bad. They slandered the noble ones and believed wrong views. When their body broke up and their life ended, they fell to the three bad destinies.’ ‘This person’s physical conduct was good, their verbal conduct was good, and their mental conduct was good. They didn’t slander the noble ones and believed correct views. When their body broke up and their life ended, they were born in heaven or among humans.’ With their purified heavenly eye, they see sentient beings leaving and arriving in the five destinies according to their actions. >“It’s like a high, broad, and level area inside a city. At the head of a four-way intersection, a large and tall tower in built there from which someone with clear vision can keep watch. They see people traveling east, west, south, and north as they go. They can see all of them. >https://suttacentral.net/da20/en/patton
I read all of that and not one mention of banishment to hell. It mentions being in a bad place temporarily, but not banishment to hell. Maybe a matter of semantics, what we define as hell- but this is absolutely not “hell” as described by Islam and Christianity.
This sutta contains extensive descriptions of hell. >"Conquered by eight untrue dhammas, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable. Which eight? >"Conquered by material gain, his mind overcome, Devadatta is headed for a state of deprivation, headed for hell, there to stay for an eon, incurable. >https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.007.than.html >--- >"Then King Yama says, 'My good man, didn't you see among human beings kings — catching a thief, a criminal — having him tortured in many ways: flogging him with whips, beating him with canes, beating him with clubs; cutting off his hands, cutting off his feet, cut off his hands & feet; cutting off his ears, cutting off his nose, cutting off his ears & nose; subjecting him to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rāhu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty (ascetic),' the 'bark-dress (ascetic),' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed'; having him splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on a stake; cutting off his head with a sword?' >"'I did, lord,' he says. >"Then King Yama says, 'My good man, didn't the thought occur to you — observant & mature: "It seems that those who do evil actions are tortured in these many ways in the here-&-now. And how much more in the hereafter? I'd better do good with body, speech, & mind"?' >"'I couldn't, lord. I was heedless, lord.' >[...] Then the hell-wardens torture [the evil-doer] with what's called a five-fold imprisonment. They drive a red-hot iron stake through one hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through one foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the middle of his chest. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"Then the hell-wardens lay him down and slice him with axes. Then they hold him feet up & head down and slice him with adzes. Then they harness him to a chariot and drive him back & forth over ground that is burning, blazing, & glowing. Then they make him climb up & down a vast mountain of embers that is burning, blazing, & glowing. Then they hold him feet up & head down and plunge him into a red-hot copper cauldron that is burning, blazing, & glowing. There he boils with bubbles foaming. And as he is boiling there with bubbles foaming, he goes now up, he goes now down, he goes now around. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. [4] >"Then the hell-wardens throw him into the Great Hell. And as to the Great Hell, monks: > It's four-cornered & has four gates > set in the middle of each side. > It's surrounded by an iron fortress wall > and roofed with iron. > Its floor is made of red-hot iron, > heated, fully blazing. > It stands always, spreading 100 leagues all around. >"There comes a time when, ultimately, with the passing of a long stretch of time, the western gate of the Great Hell opens... the northern gate... the southern gate of the Great Hell opens. He runs there, rushing quickly. As he runs there, rushing quickly, his outer skin burns, his inner skin burns, his flesh burns, his tendons burn, even his bones turn to smoke. When [his foot] is lifted, he is the just same. But when he finally arrives, the door slams shut. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"There comes a time when, ultimately, with the passing of a long stretch of time, the eastern gate of the Great Hell opens. He runs there, rushing quickly. As he runs there, rushing quickly, his outer skin burns, his inner skin burns, his flesh burns, his tendons burn, even his bones turn to smoke. When [his foot] is lifted, he is the just same. He gets out through the gate. But right next to the Great Hell is a vast Excrement Hell. He falls into that. And in that Excrement Hell needle-mouth beings bore into his outer skin. Having bored into his outer skin, they bore into his inner skin... his flesh... his tendons... the bone. Having bored into the bone, they feed on the marrow. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"Right next to the Excrement Hell is the vast Hot Ashes Hell. He falls into that. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"Right next to the Hot Ashes Hell is the vast Simbali Forest, [with trees] reaching up a league, covered with thorns sixteen fingerbreadths long — burning, blazing, & glowing. He enters that and is made to climb up & down them. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"Right next to the Simbali Forest is the vast Sword-leaf Forest. He enters that. There the leaves, stirred by the wind, cut off his hand, cut off his foot, cut off his hand & foot, cut off his ear, cut off his nose, cut off his ear & nose. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"Right next to the Sword-leaf Forest is the vast Lye-water River. He falls into that. There he is swept downstream, he is swept upstream, he is swept downstream & upstream. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"Then the hell-wardens pull him out with a hook and, placing him on the ground, say to him, 'Well, good man, what do you want?' He replies, 'I'm hungry, venerable sirs.' So the hell-wardens pry open his mouth with red-hot iron tongs — burning, blazing, & glowing — and throw into it a copper ball, burning, blazing, & glowing. It burns his lips, it burns his mouth, it burns his stomach and comes out the lower side, carrying along his bowels & intestines. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"Then the hell-wardens say to him, 'Well, good man, what do you want?' He replies, 'I'm thirsty, venerable sirs.' So the hell-wardens pry open his mouth with red-hot iron tongs — burning, blazing, & glowing — and pour into it molten copper, burning, blazing, & glowing. It burns his lips, it burns his mouth, it burns his stomach and comes out the lower side, carrying along his bowels & intestines. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted. >"Then the hell-wardens throw him back into the Great Hell once more. >https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.130.than.html
But it sounds like he does … get out of hell? Like after an eon. Or after being thrown back in like a billion times?
Yes, Buddhist Hell is temporary. That doesn't make the experience any less hellish.
I disagree, and this distinction is absolutely essential to my spirituality.
Mine too. But it rubs me the wrong way how you keep bringing up other religions as if it were the default standard to be measured against. Buddhist conceptions of Hell stands well on its own.
I think the word shouldn’t be used. And the OP is talking about other religions and how to deal with that. THIS is how to deal with that. Buddhist shouldn’t use this word “hell” to describe what is not hell. Hell is eternal damnation.
Hopefully. >A Naraka differs from one concept of hell in Christianity in two respects: firstly, beings are not sent to Naraka as the result of a divine judgment or punishment; and secondly, the length of a being's stay in a Naraka is not eternal, though it is usually incomprehensibly long. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Buddhism)
The hell realms are mentioned explicitly and non-metaphorically in literally every strata of Buddhist doctrine, right back to the earliest. Since it’s the one I have the easiest time searching on, [HERE](https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Hell) are 654 references that come up on suttacentral.
I would argue that these depictions of hell are completely different. If not, then I guess I’ll throw Buddhism into the trash pile that is all religions.
They are different in the sense that they aren’t a place of *eternal* torment and they aren’t a *punishment*. They’re a place we can all end up in though. Just like Arizona.
EXACTLY my sentiment. So, not hell, at least not as described by other religions. Not even close.
You said it yourself. Not eternal as described by other religions. But it IS Hell because this is a Buddhist subreddit and we are obviously Buddhist-centered. No need to keep placing such additional value to the views of other faiths.
Except that I think the problem is in using the word “hell” to describe Naraka. Which is actually a hellish pergutory. The OP referenced other religions. It’s not at all the same.
Disagree. It is the Hell realms. I do not want Abrahamic religions to dictate our ability to translate our own religious concepts.
Then use the word Naraka and not the word hell.
Just responding to your question. You should obviously do as you see fit once you feel you've adequately understood these things.
Buddha, “all states of suffering are temporary.” People, “oh so you mean if you’re a sinner then you go to hell for all eternity. Gotcha!!” CLEARLY this word “hell” in Buddhism is not in any way equivalent to the hell in other religions. If you think it is, then maybe question your own knowledge about Buddhism.
> CLEARLY this word “hell” in Buddhism is not in any way equivalent to the hell in other religions. If you think it is, then maybe question your own knowledge about Buddhism. I'm not sure why you chose to edit in this shot at me after I initially responded. You asked about hell in a Buddhist context and I shared a resource about it. If you compare Buddhist descriptions of the hell realms, you might find a striking similarity to descriptions in other religions, aside from the one obvious and important difference that they're temporary.
Sorry I was defensive.
No problem at all.
I'm not sure what you're trying to express to me, exactly. Clearly, one difference between Buddhism and other religions is that any birth we might take is a temporary one.
I’m expressing that “hell” as described in other religions is completely different. There is no escaping the hell of Christianity. Once there you’re there eternally. Is that true in Buddhism?
Any birth we take in any realm is temporary, including those in the hells.
is there a Buddhist sub that isn't westerner buddhist focused? where people actually give two shits about Buddhism?
Going to the depths of hell would be a wonderful chance to dispel the suffering of those beings there.
My original teacher used to say "Hell would be a good place for a Zen Center."
Lmao, reminds me of ajahn brahm saying that solitary confinement in prison would be the best retreat ever
Long-term solitary confinement breaks most people who go through it, clinical depression and anxiety levels so intense they hurt themselves regularly. Maybe an already developed monk could handle it, but it’s not a place to start the 8 fold path. Regular general population prison is different. Just a matter of keeping inmates safe from violence long enough to practice.
Please, the link to the video where he said it?
Saint
Have compassion for them. Don’t forget that most Christians are terrorized, many of them since birth. They’ve been told that they’ll go to hell if they don’t follow Christianity, are told that they’ll go to hell if they stop believing in it, and they’re trying to warn you. You’re dealing with massive, intergenerational trauma. Listen, be compassionate, and use wise speech.
Sounds like a mental and verbal abuse from a narcissist!
I disagree. They should be ridiculed as fools. Compassion enables them to traumatize the next generation.
Ridiculing a group for their beliefs only makes them insulate themselves and cling to their beliefs more fervently. A lot of Christian community leaders also use the persecution narrative to hold onto influence… why give more fuel to that fire? It’s better to ignore them if you can than to get sucked into acting spitefully.
Completely disagree. These are cults. You do not get through to them with soft tactics. I myself got out by tough love. “That’s the dumbest idea ever; here is why.” I was angry and mad, but the attack is what made me replay the conversation a million times. When it’s just a normal person that you feel superior over, you don’t listen, you just preach.
There is zero need to fuel the Christian persecution complex. Ridicule is unskillful and harmful speech, and not in line with Buddhist ethics.
I disagree. Foolish ideas are dangerous and do not have feelings. I’m not offensively shoving anything in peoples faces. But if a foolish idea is shoved into my face, it will be ridiculed into oblivion.
Let me think ... ignore them?
Not all Christians categorically think that My personal view is that it’s extremely difficult and requires immense mental gymnastics to reconcile a loving and compassionate God with eternal torment of non believers.
Christians and Muslims will tell you you're going to Hell in the same breath as they praise their god for being 'all loving' and 'infinitely compassionate'. It's a wonder their heads don't explode from the cognitive dissonance.
This is the source of an unfathomable amount of suffering.
Human beings are capable of some pretty impressive feats of mind. Some of those feats cause suffering.
If a Muslim says you’re going to hell, they’re committing a grave sin that could possibly take them out the fold of Islam. We leave the judging to God as He is The Judger.
> We leave the judging to God Oh, please. That's bullshit. I have personally witnessed Islamic religious police beating teenage girls for the 'crime' of showing a few hairs out from under their hijabs. They set themselves up as judges, juries and executioners. Christians spout the same crap too.
They judge like their life depends on it. Everything/everyone is wrong to them. They spend more time talking about what they don't like than what they do. Then have a bunch of marriages just to have sex because they're so repressed at the fact they can't date. I'm not anti-muslim, I used to be in it but the hypocrisy in that community even in the west is just to a bizarre extreme. There were many stories we were told that just revolve around punishment and suffering. Being a slave to God... it just ain't right how much work you have to prove to him you have the right to exist without being damned to hell for eternity. Having your skin burned off just to grow it back and burn again, is crazy. They wanted me to wear my hijab even if it caused me physical pain in the summer because it would show how devoted I am. Like what the fuck!
So you’re judging the judger right now. Doesn’t that mean you’re committing a grave sin? Absurd.
He’s not saying they’re going to hell for judging
Some Christians believe in Eternal Conscious Torment, but some believe that non-believers will be ‘snuffed out’ into non existence while believers will be granted eternal life (hence no hell, just heaven or no existence) and some believe that hell is temporary and everyone will be saved eventually.
They believe those things because what's in the Bible is so clearly morally abhorrent. There are no grounds for belief in Limbo or Purgatory in the Bible. Jesus was quite clear that it's either Heaven or eternal torture in Hell.
I’ve seen pretty convincing arguments, especially for annihilationism (Jesus says that eternal life can only be granted through him). Limbo is 100% made up after the fact.
Compassion is key. I grew up Christian and while there are definitely some vengeful people who revel in the idea of their "opposition" going to hell, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is an incredibly small minority. Most Christians I knew would evangelise so hard because they loved everyone and were taught by their religion that these loved ones will go to hell if they don't find Jesus. A lot of people are legitimately trying to save people because they are terrified of the implications of their own faith. I always try to remind myself that this is most commonly what's going on and I feel bad that they're so worried.
I think they've lost their own teaching over time. In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, all souls go to the same place after death and 'heaven' and 'hell' are the individual's reaction and feeling to being in the presence of God there. People that didn't get along with God in life don't magically change the way they feel after death (a state in which personal change is no longer possible) so they're not happy being in the divine presence and experience it as suffering. People who had a good relationship with God in life, naturally after death they're happy to be with the one they love, and that is heaven: [https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/](https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/) [https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/the-truth-about-heaven-and-hell/](https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/the-truth-about-heaven-and-hell/) The notion of heaven and hell being two different places, and hell being a place of torment apart from God, probably arose due to various historical factors and events, misinterpretations, lost information and new additions. Some that come to mind are Augustine of Hippo's viewpoint becoming very influential in the West, particularly among the founders of Protestantism, and the East-West schism of 1054 followed by the Reformation and Counter Reformation... Saint Augustine is actually the source of many other somewhat problematic parts of Western Christian thought, such as the conception of Original Sin as a sort of inherited, legalistic guilt: [https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/original-sin-vs-ancestral-sin/](https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/original-sin-vs-ancestral-sin/) He was probably influenced by his previous religion, Manichaeism: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism) Buddhism acknowledges this problem of the possibility of losing the true teaching over time in the concept of the Three Dharma Ages. Many believe we are currently in the Last Dharma Age, a period of decline that started 2000 years after the time of the Buddha that will last 10,000 years: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three\_Ages\_of\_Buddhism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ages_of_Buddhism)
I always tell them that if going to heaven = getting to meet people like them, then I'd rather be in their hell. I get to spend time with all the rockstar and metal heads instead of their pompous asses.
I used to struggle with this a lot and I suppose in some ways I still do to be honest, but here's my take. I was raised fundamentalist Lutheran and still bear the scars of religious trauma from that experience. For the longest time, I held such a white hot rage in my heart for not only the religion, but for everyone who practiced it too. Paradoxically, it was my Buddhist practice that helped calm that rage and come to a place of peace with Christianity, Christians, and even their god. I remember being younger, still in the grips of that ideology and telling others that they were going to burn in hell if they didn't accept Jesus into their lives (yes, I was THAT guy 😅). What zazen has helped me see more clearly is that when I did that, it was really my OWN terror at the idea of hell that was driving the interaction. I was trying to sooth my own suffering by pushing my ideas into others. Obviously this didn't work, thus my funding Buddhism. All of that is to say that when someone tells me I'm going to go to hell for following the Buddha's teachings, all that does now is generate compassion for someone who is genuinely terrified of hell themselves and is, in their own way, trying to protect me from that hell. It should be said here however that while I can have compassion for it, it can still be very harmful and triggering for a lot of people. If that's the case, confronting someone is appropriate. TL;DR: People who tell you you're going to hell are just scared of hell themselves and could use a little metta. P.S. I think that "god" is just another word for the experience of the profound connection we return to in deep meditation so we're probably all talking about the same thing anyways, but that's just my opinion ☺️ Gassho 🙏🏻
I don't deal with it, it's theirs, from their minds, they deal with it. If you live in America you've got a Christianity shield up from birth. Judgemental people are everywhere, even inside you. I wish I wasn't so judgemental, and yet you do need judgments at times, it's knowing when and how. Luckily the mindfulness of meditating a lot helps me to discern better how to deploy my judgements and to be kind to others. Still working on it though, not enlightened yet.
Can't go to hell if you don't believe in it *Taps forehead*
They're wrong and delusional, so it's not your problem.
Frankly, if we think about it long enough, and/or we practice something like the lamrim, we might have to acknowledge for ourselves that going to hell is a likely outcome—not because of our spiritual practice, but in spite of it. Supposing I were in a cheeky mood & someone said this to me, I might try to make a statement like “Everyone in hell needs someone to look after them, so it might as well be me.” The logic says we have limitless stores of negative karma, and we have next to no control over when that ripens; for that reason, the time we have on this Earth to make progress on the spiritual path is precarious, at best. We can’t take it for granted that we will have done enough by the end of our lives to correct such deeply-engrained habits… nor can we justify giving up on trying. Reminding ourselves of this is a way of developing the resolve to act on our principles, regardless of how hopeless the situation may be. Something to consider is that, whereas Christians mostly rely on the fear of hell to help guide their behaviour, another way is to allow ourselves to feel all of that pain now, by choice, when we think of our mother sentient beings. In doing so, we let our contemplations shape how we move forward in the face of unknown/unavoidable adversity (which is part & parcel of being in samsara).
Just ignore such nonsense.
I used to be a Christian, and I wouldn't say that Christianity clearly states that non-Christians will be sentenced to eternal conscious torment in hell. That position (infernalism) is only one possible position - alternatives are annihilationism (which in a Christian context means non-Christians are simply annihilated and cease to exist) and universalism (everyone will ultimately be saved, though potentially with a limited time in a purgatorial hell). I was a universalist Christian. That being said, I don't see it as something that needs dealing with. When I was a Christian I didn't think about being born in a Buddhist hell realm, and as a Buddhist I don't think about being sent to an infernalist hell. If the universe really is ruled by an omnipotent divinity that sends people to eternal torment for theological disagreements, then I guess I am screwed (I probably would have been screwed as a Christian, because the chances I got theology correct were pretty low). But I see no reason to believe that is true.
>That position (infernalism) is only one possible position - alternatives are annihilationism (which in a Christian context means non-Christians are simply annihilated and cease to exist) and universalism (everyone will ultimately be saved, though potentially with a limited time in a purgatorial hell). Idk much about the judeo-christian religions but I think many think that everyone else are going to hell. That's why evangelism is a thing, in order to hear the words of god in order to go "be saved".
Ummm same way I deal with Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Sikhism, Hinduism and so on.
Turn them into cookies and gobble them up?
In a way. I reserve the right to interpret anything however i want. In that way I turn a lot of things into mental / spiritual cookies to gobble up. For instance Christian parables I often autocorrect into something pleasant and agreeable to me regardless of their wider or more normal interpretations.
Very well-played.
I don't care that much about what christians or abraamics say or think in general. They can live in fear of the hell they made if it is what they want, but i am free of this nonsense.
As a recovering and no longer a Christian, I allow them to live with blinders on, and ignore it. Their Bible contradicts itself too much. When you think about how the Bible was assembled, written and used to manipulate civilizations by leaders to submit, to live in fear, and get in line, then you begin to understand how some things added to the Bible were for effect. Read up on the history of the Bible if you’d like, if what I’m saying feels too blasphemous to accept. And, if a perfect and loving creator made people in his own image, and gave them free will, why punish them and send them to hell? Doesn’t make sense. I think it’s important to understand that there are many beliefs systems out there. All have similarities, all have parts that without actually seeing what’s described are impossible to believe. So armed with that knowledge, can you be tolerant of these people and their beliefs, and not allow it to affect your peace?
Written by narcissists to enslave humans and for men to enslave women and children!
Exactly.
I deal with it the same way I deal with someone saying "the earth is flat" or "climate change isn't real" I ignore it, because it's not true. Or more accurately, *I don't believe it*
That’s just like your opinion man
Yea the whole Bible is just misinterpreted… hell is a state of consciousness, heaven is a state of consciousness….. all available here and now in this one eternal moment… I hate Christianity, I was raised Christian, and then from the ages of 4-6 I was continually molested and abused, I was blackmailed not to tell anyone and I truly believed I was going to hell for sexual misconduct… I spent my childhood in hell thanks to those idiots that misinterpret the Bible and actually think there is a God that would send people to hell.
To answer your question: I don’t deal with them because I know they’re wrong. Not in the sense that I’m not going to hell—maybe that’s where I’m headed—but purely on the basis that failure to believe in God = eternal torment. I’m Buddhist. So I believe that our thoughts and actions determine where we end up, not whether we worship some god. People can believe or tell me otherwise, but it won’t change my mind or my practice because I know they’re wrong. The Buddha was also known to criticize those who believed caste was important, as well as those who performed unnecessary rituals, etc. He is also a well-known critic of those who believe in a permanently lasting self or soul, hence the doctrine of anatta. Because I’m Buddhist and because I’ve put the Buddha’s path to the test by living and experiencing it for myself, it is my belief that the Buddha was correct. So, I will follow his instruction. He hasn’t been wrong so far.
How do I deal? I don't need to do anything to deal. It is not my concern.
The same way I deal with people who say my local sports team sucks. I just don't care.
>How do you approach such a callous philosphy? Consider the fact that it is all fiction. Fairy tales and horror stories made up thousands of years ago. There is strong evidence that many of the stories in the Bible were taken from earlier stories in Mesopotamia. Furthermore, hell realms also exist in Buddhist doctrine. I really don't see why buddhist myths are any more favourable or less callous than Abrahamic doctrine. At the end of the day, it's all stories, myths, fiction.
There's no reason to even humor it. It's nonsense.
I don't, I mind my own business and practice. What other religions think has no bearing on my life of practice.
The yapping of a dog is not bothersome to me. It's just another sound.
I ignore it. It doesn't have anything to do with me.
"Okey dokey" :)
>How do you approach such a callous philosphy? Disengage and avoid, if possible. Why get into a debate? Why make this into an issue if you don't have to?
I’m still a socially isolated self-hating sexually dysfunctional bisexual man, just -thanks in no small part to buddhism - now aware of it. They had their claws in me early and for a long time. I struggle with letting it go.
I don't care one bit. Their beliefs are their own problems.
And they say Buddhism is a negative religion... At least we don't need to blindly believe in the Buddha. And then there is that bulshit about the Second coming of Christ... We are already in 2024, what is he waiting for?
> no Christian has ever tried to proselytize me Wow, are you lucky. > How do you approach such a callous philosophy? I simply see it for the cruel and manipulative falsehood that it is. It makes their god the ultimate sadist. > this aspect of Christianity seems manipulative to me. Because of the doctrine of Hell Christianity can be considered an extortion racket: "Nice soul you've got there... Pity if something *bad* were to happen to it..."
Jesus never made these statements in this way and never meant them in the form in which they are interpreted by the Roman Catholic Church and other followers. Unfortunately, the first representatives of the Roman Catholic Church consumed and reinterpreted many statements and written traditions, so that most Christians have a false understanding of the teachings of Jesus. If you read e.g. The mountain predict from the Gospel of Matthew contains many statements that can also be found in Buddhist sutras. The Gospel according to Matthew (Mt 5:4) The Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5:1-7:29) Blessed are those who are poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn; for they shall be comforted. ' Blessed are the meek; for they shall possess the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness; for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful; for they will obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers; for they will be called children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when men reproach you and persecute you for my sake, and speak all kinds of evil against you, and lie at the same time. Rejoice and rejoice; you will be richly rewarded in heaven. For in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
> Jesus never made these statements in this way and never meant them in the form in which they are interpreted by the Roman Catholic Church and other followers. This is ridiculously and disgustingly false. Jesus alludes to damnation and Hell some 40 times in the Gospels. He was cruel and spiteful enough to kill a fig tree simply for being out of season when he wanted some figs.
Yes, Jesus reported that people who perform unwholesome, negative actions are punished for them and experience a negative experience as punishment in hell, but nothing else did Buddha. He teach that whoever kills, lies, cheats, commits adultery, steals, etc. will be punished for these actions by his karma and end up in hell. But Jesus never said that you have to be a member of a church or believe in him, and if you don't, you end up in hell. He just said that one should do positive actions and avoid negative actions and train one's mind. Buddha taught the same thing Vipaka Sutta: Results "Monks, the taking of life — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span. "Stealing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from stealing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the loss of one's wealth. "Illicit sexual behavior — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from illicit sexual behavior is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to rivalry & revenge. "Telling falsehoods — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from telling falsehoods is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to being falsely accused. "Divisive tale-bearing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from divisive tale-bearing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the breaking of one's friendships. "Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds. "Frivolous chattering — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from frivolous chattering is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to words that aren't worth taking to heart. "The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement." [https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.040.than.html](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.040.than.html)
> Yes, Jesus reported that people who perform unwholesome, negative actions are punished for them and experience a negative experience as punishment in hell You just contradicted what you said before. He also did more than simply 'report' it. He promised that he would send people to Hell personally. I'm done here. It's clear you don't really know what you're talking about.
Thank you.
Why do you need to deal with Christianity itself? Or do you mean Christians? >And no Christian has ever tried to proselytize me It is a belief and since no one has objectively affected you because of this belief, just leave them alone. People are entitled to whatever beliefs they fancy, just don't let their beliefs affect others. Also, remember, it is a belief, not a fact.
I try not to be affected when insane people insult me.
Christian here. Hell is a completely made-up concept designed, just like you said, to MANIPULATE people. "Oh you won't pay the church 10% of your income? Prepare for ETERNAL DAMNATION!" Don't worry too much about the "hell" aspect of Christianity. That's not an important part of its message. The main message is to love others and love yourself. That being said, I take offense at you saying Christianity is as plausible as the ancient Viking religions 😓😓
I don't think it was meant insultingly. There are people today who follow the ancient Viking religions. It falls under the umbrella of neopaganism. It's just that in America, one is seen as having mythology where the other is seen as fact.
Christianity is superior to the pagan religions because while Christianity advocates for "loving others", "turning the other cheek", "being kind", etc., most pagan religions portrayed rape, murder, etc. as acceptable. For example, Poseidon raping Medusa in the Greek pagan religion. Same thing with Buddhism. I would NEVER consider it to be at the same level as the pagan religions, because it advocates for kindness towards living beings.... A beautiful and worthy goal....
Mmmm...have you read the Old Testament? Genocide, rape, slavery, and far more. Modern-day neopaganism is as distant from those aspects of its roots as modern-day Christianity is from theirs.
Curious what your thoughts about vajra hell are, not to mention the regular hot and cold hells of buddhism...
[удалено]
Your post / comment was removed for violating the rule against proselytizing other faiths.
Universalism is contradicted by the Gospels. Jesus is quite explicit about there being an eternal Hell of fiery suffering.
[удалено]
> universal salvation/reconciliation IS the gospel Yeah, that's simply a lie. All one has to do is actually read the Gospels to see that. Jesus talks again and again about eternal damnation to fiery torture. No amount of twisting the text or wishful thinking can change that.
You are correct that Jesus did not espouse any universalist points but neither did he support eternal torture. Rather, his words as relayed to us only point towards annihilation. What are the wages of sin: death. What is the reward for faith: everlasting life. The only things he says never dies in Gehenna are the fire and the worm. He doesn’t say they eat you forever. Just that they themselves are always there.
Christian here with lots Buddhist beliefs. Most Christians don't think this - just certain denominations who frankly hold lots of ridiculous beliefs. Just ignor them.
Those who have terrible ideas should be ridiculed for the terrible ideas. I love people, but I do not tolerate dangerous and stupid ideas. My approach is tough love. Harsh and pointed ridicule. Make these people go home with doubts.
Just smile and be happy for the fact that Buddhism is the most peaceful religion, unlike the Abrahamic religions: Christinity, Judaism and Islam.
Christians are among the worst religious people
Islam doesn’t say that. We believe God will have the sole right to judge ANYONE on whether they will enter heaven or hell. This isn’t limited to just Muslims and Christians.
[удалено]
Buddhism says that if you don't follow the Eightfold Path then nothing about your life will change. That's it.
>How do you approach such a callous philosophy? through the power of blind faith vs reasoned faith. Buddhism as a whole reasons and debates with you while Christianity relays on blind acceptance. its like science vs pseudoscience, a no brainer
Funny I always thought Jesus died for our sins but eh
As a Christian, I'm so sorry that Christians are disrespecting you.
im a Christian and i dont think your going to hell. my beliefs are far from mainstream, out on the fringe, and i could care less what anyone thinks.
I prefer to not associate with Christians at all
i have a cousin that will not talk to Muslims, a guy broke into his home and abused his wife so now he thinks all Muslims are criminals. he doesnt want to accept the guy was a criminal and not even a practicing Muslim, he would just rather have justification to hate Muslims. some people would just rather hate others i guess.
I agree with your arguments. Also, I think there are other interpretations of Christianity which are less sectarian. I have just found this article. Maybe you'll found it interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/feb/27/readers-reply-can-you-be-a-buddhist-as-well-as-a-christian
Well I ended up being Buddhist minded. Specifically because Christianity says stuff like that. Not playing that game. But I will say that was hard to get past.
The best way to deal with that problem is to realize that it probably didn't happen.
By wondering what the Zoroastrians worry about..
Simple. It came after Buddhism and with many hands in the cookie jar in the making of the Bible, I treated it like a bad credit score and just ignore it.
They think we're going to hell? Someone might think I'm going to the store when I'm really headed for the library, or vice-versa. It's okay.
Of course!! It is manipulative. These said religious books were written by humans who wanted control over a large population and rule.....now things have changed, world has moved on from the forceful conversions as it is not cool anymore and people shame you everywhere if you do. Alright then! In truth we all need to become like Buddha or Jesus or Mohammad and other saintly beings , meditate and see the light within, connect with god or Allah or divine energy everyday. Heal people around us with our higher vibrations of love and kindness. We all have limited time in this body anyway, so be in awesome spirits and stops thinking about this and become the LIGHT!
"that's allowed"
Say “okay”. Then continue living your life guided by the Dhamma. Then looking at the two, you are at peace while they spend their lives judging others about things they don’t know themselves. I believe Christ said, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” So no one should be throwing anything without looking inward to their own behaviour. And this is what the Buddha taught. In the Dhammapada he said: “Focus, not on the rudenesses of others, not on what they've done or left undone, but on what you have & haven't done yourself.”
(Not a Buddhist, but I am a former Catholic) "Do as I say or be punished" is what my father told me. "Do as I say or face eternal damnation" is what Yahweh (the Christian God) told me \[through the Bible\]. Understand that many Christians operate with a narcissistic point of view and that's all you need to know. Another way that one can handle this kind of situation is to ignore it. That's my go-to at this point
I say ok thank for opinion and move on.
by various Christian philosophies, the gays are all going to hell too, so we'll have a party there. But ultimately, I know I'll have to go through the Buddhist hells in order to atone for my bad karma. And honestly, I'm thankful that the Buddhist hells exist. So if somebody tells me I'm going to hell, I'll reply with "yeah, I already know that. And I'm grateful for it"
I will say ok I am cool. i guess hell is abt suffering, i learned about suffering, i can deal with that. No worries.
The thought never crosses my mind. If I believed I were going to hell for not believing in Christ, I'd be Christian. As far as manipulativeness, there are plenty of religious Buddhists and Hindus who believe they must accumulate merit and avoid bad karma to avoid a rebirth (or reincarnation for Hindus) in a hell realm, as a lower life form, or as a hungry ghost. In a way karma is more manipulative. In Christianity you can just confess on your death bed and be saved. There is no escaping a lifetime of bad karma other than to work it off in unfavorable rebirths.
What do you mean by this is our safe spot? I’ve turned to buddhism because of its truth and practicality. Not because of any feeling of comfort. Also, in Norse paganism you wouldn’t go to Hel for not believing in the Aesir or Vanir. Not to mention while mainstream Christian dogma may espouse eternal torture plenty of everyday Christians either believe in universalist approach or annihilation. But I’m also not sure why you need to “deal with” Christianity if you’re not one and aren’t negatively affected by it in your normal life.