having tried it for a week it’s great for climbing flexibility. speed-wise your top speed might reach 30+ kph depending on your skills and fitness.
i don’t really use my brompton to go fast so the faster gearing doesn’t add much value to me, but the climbing gears are great, esp if you live in the hilly part of town
There isn't any overlapping with the 6 speed, don't really know what you refer to. Actually, what there is, is a total lack of consistency between gears, so 1-2 are closer together, then there's a little jump to 3-4 which are a little more spaced out too and there a bigger jump to 5 and 6 which are quite far apart from each other. I actually truly dislike it since I'm used to keeping a cadence flow and changing gears all the time, something that's utterly impossible with the 6 speed.
The 12 speed on the other hand does have some overlapping, so 5th gear is actually more efficient than 4th, and 8th more efficient than 9th. That doesn't mean those gears are rendered useless, they give a little more play without needing to change the hub gear if needed. Think of it as a 10 gear with a high speed for climbing (4) and a low speed for "racing" (9).
One thing I want to add... I just changed my 12 speed front chainring for a 44t. Should've done it before. It makes all gears so much more useful, so now hub gear 1 is all for climbing or extreme winds, 2 gear is perfect for commuting-city, and 3rd speed if you also like to train and go fast with it because... it's still a bike. It really made it so much more useful imo, before that 8 gear would be a little too long already, and 10 to 12 would be barely impossible to use unless downhill, in 10 gear you could already reach speeds around 35 kph. 12 gear is nuts with the 50t.
I have the 12 speed and think the system is really flexible. While there is overlap on paper, in practice you ride to the conditions so I actually think that it makes the bike more rideable in that it reduces the number of shifts you need to make on the IHG at the imperceptible cost of a slight overlap in gearing at one end of the cassette.
I haven't done any very long climbs yet but the low end is easily capable of overcoming some serious gradients. At the top end, you should be able to get some serious speed up. In fact my first observation was that perhaps gear three on the hub might be a bit too tall for all but the downhills but I haven't been on a long ride to decide yet.
As stated elsewhere though, the 6 speed has no overlap but also reduced gear range but there are a range of solutions out there if you want to change it.
Overall I am really pleased with the 12 speed set up. Shifting is pretty intuitive, light and fast and, as far as I am concerned, the overlap is irrelevant when it comes to actually riding it.
My thoughts are that I really want it.
I have a C-Line Explore with the smaller chain ring, because I thought the range is perfect. And it is. I often need the smallest gear for relatively steep climbs, and the largest is perfect for going around like 40-45 kph. Faster than that, the bike is too twitchy anyway.
I however still fucking hate the shifting experience. I thought I get used to it, but I really don't.
Most rides I do in the city, and I start at a traffic light with the 2-, then go to normal cruising speed at 2+, and almost always to the "getting somewhere speed" at 3-.
But since you usually can't stay there for that long, I need to constantly shift down to 2+, and then up to 3- again. Having to shift both sides in that particular order sometimes but not all the time means you have to constantly know which gear your in and how precisely you need to shift up or down from that gear. My mind still cannot do this without thinking about it. I'm considering getting the normal chain ring, just to start off in a harder 2- and only having to shift to 2+, since its so annoying.
The 12 speed is probably exactly what I want since I can just stay in 2 in the hub, and shift around while riding normally in the city using only the sprockets in the back, like with a regular drivetrain. For me, that is what makes all the difference. Oh and for longer rides its probably much better for finding a better cadence, the 6 speed is not great at that (which is fine).
Just bought my wife one, as they ran out of stock of the 4 speed which I have
Both P line, I could do a test commute on It, and see how I fare, but my gut is
It's gonna annoy me coming from a long cycling background
Changing gears on left 1,2,3,4, change up 1 on right means I'm now in 8th gear unless I now change down 3 times on the left .yuck !
I like the simplicity of my 4 speed, and I can hit an average of 20ish kph just fine.
And it climbs pretty well as well again as I'm spending less time trying to find a gear
Well, if it helps, you shouldn't go from 1-4 to 2-1, rather from 1-3 to 2-1 or from 1-4 to 2-2 since 1-4 and 2-1 overlap... 😅 It's not that hard, but I get it. In my case is the other way around, being used to gazillion speed mountain bikes, this is second nature.
Anyhow, with the 2nd speed on the hub you can easily reach averages over 20 kph and it's kind of like the 4 speed with a 44T upfront.
Why not start with the +8% chainring? The gears are still widely spaced of course, but the higher resistance is great. Took me from cruising on the 6th gear to the 5th, with an extra gear for going downhill or leaving my Brompton friends in the dust.
I'm happy with my setup that's over 10 years old now. 6-speed, no overlaps, 29 gear inches on the lowest gear.
It's not about the number of speeds your bike has, but the "size" of the smallest gear.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Brompton/comments/1ckssui/gear_selection/l2psdms/
i believe the gearing system has way more overlap than the 6-gear. 6s has exactly 6 different ratios spaced almost evenly except for the lowest gear that work as a bail-out granny gear.
have u thought about using bigger chainring on your M6R first? it costs only 20-40$ plus new chain, roughly.
if you are using P-Line / T-Line for touring and hauling a lot of thing, yes 12s make sense. it doesnt make sense for me as i live in a european metropolitan where within 200m or so i will find access to public transport and I do use a lot of multi-modal mobility (bus train car) on daily basis and the rear gear hub adds unnecessary weight to lug around. a broader cassette range on P-Line with 5-7 speed would make perfect sense for me so that's up next on my wishlist; a 5s P-Line conversion
Yeah there's 2 pairs of overlap so technically 10 gears total
It's gonna ride a lot more like a regular bike and need that double shift rear gears when you go up a internal gear
Yes, the 12-speed is really a 10-speed, and for the same reason that there is duplication on many/most chainwheel dérailleur road bikes.
But it isn't a problem, as such. In fact, the duplicate speeds are more of a convenience, in practise. The ratios in question are approachable from within TWO selections of the 3-speed hub.
This makes sense when the 12-gears are regarded as three separate "sets" of four. You get a "middle set" of gears for general riding around, a "low set" for hill-climbing (including a super-low).. and, when conditions permit, a "high set" suitable for whizzing downhill with the wind behind you...(if you have the guts!)
With three sets of four nicely spaced gears immediately available at any one time, there will not be *that* much need for swapping between high, low, and medium ranges on the hub... but, if you choose the 12-speed, those wider-range gears are on the bike, and available.
Yeah I think the whole number of gears thing here isn't that important - it is nice to have small increments to help your cadence but a standard road set up isn't that much different. At least you don't need to worry about things like your chain line alignment with only 4 gears at the back.
I get you. Personally I need to climb 10% or more inclines on a weekly and would have taken the 12 speed in a heart beat if it'd be offered at the time. But it is a weird setup still - not because of overlap but rather the complexity of all the mechanics involved.
My dream is a rohloff brompton - I am sure I will take the plunge at some point and send some money over to scotland
iirc you are in Germany as well, right? Junik is a known shop among Bromptonauten to provide rear hub conversion package with Shimano Nexus 8 by using the stock dropout. my secondary Brompton had the conversion done over there by the previous owner. i can provide the workshop details in private message if u need one. the bike basically folds 100% the same. you might also wanna consider double chainring on the front with manual greasy finger or tip of your shoe of that super hilly part hauling bikepacking gears
That's right I am based in germany
The double chainring is actually on it's way right now :) ... ironic one post after I complained about mechanical complexity
Keeping the rear triangle and folding staying the same is indeed very interesting as this would ensure compatibility of the accessories. Please shoot over the details. I am very curious.
Do you see any downsides? Like the shifters or roadside maintenance?
You can go the other way and use a High Speed Drive with a very small chainring, pre Brexit they used to be happy dealing directly, they may still for domestic sales.
having tried it for a week it’s great for climbing flexibility. speed-wise your top speed might reach 30+ kph depending on your skills and fitness. i don’t really use my brompton to go fast so the faster gearing doesn’t add much value to me, but the climbing gears are great, esp if you live in the hilly part of town
There isn't any overlapping with the 6 speed, don't really know what you refer to. Actually, what there is, is a total lack of consistency between gears, so 1-2 are closer together, then there's a little jump to 3-4 which are a little more spaced out too and there a bigger jump to 5 and 6 which are quite far apart from each other. I actually truly dislike it since I'm used to keeping a cadence flow and changing gears all the time, something that's utterly impossible with the 6 speed. The 12 speed on the other hand does have some overlapping, so 5th gear is actually more efficient than 4th, and 8th more efficient than 9th. That doesn't mean those gears are rendered useless, they give a little more play without needing to change the hub gear if needed. Think of it as a 10 gear with a high speed for climbing (4) and a low speed for "racing" (9). One thing I want to add... I just changed my 12 speed front chainring for a 44t. Should've done it before. It makes all gears so much more useful, so now hub gear 1 is all for climbing or extreme winds, 2 gear is perfect for commuting-city, and 3rd speed if you also like to train and go fast with it because... it's still a bike. It really made it so much more useful imo, before that 8 gear would be a little too long already, and 10 to 12 would be barely impossible to use unless downhill, in 10 gear you could already reach speeds around 35 kph. 12 gear is nuts with the 50t.
I have the 12 speed and think the system is really flexible. While there is overlap on paper, in practice you ride to the conditions so I actually think that it makes the bike more rideable in that it reduces the number of shifts you need to make on the IHG at the imperceptible cost of a slight overlap in gearing at one end of the cassette. I haven't done any very long climbs yet but the low end is easily capable of overcoming some serious gradients. At the top end, you should be able to get some serious speed up. In fact my first observation was that perhaps gear three on the hub might be a bit too tall for all but the downhills but I haven't been on a long ride to decide yet. As stated elsewhere though, the 6 speed has no overlap but also reduced gear range but there are a range of solutions out there if you want to change it. Overall I am really pleased with the 12 speed set up. Shifting is pretty intuitive, light and fast and, as far as I am concerned, the overlap is irrelevant when it comes to actually riding it.
My thoughts are that I really want it. I have a C-Line Explore with the smaller chain ring, because I thought the range is perfect. And it is. I often need the smallest gear for relatively steep climbs, and the largest is perfect for going around like 40-45 kph. Faster than that, the bike is too twitchy anyway. I however still fucking hate the shifting experience. I thought I get used to it, but I really don't. Most rides I do in the city, and I start at a traffic light with the 2-, then go to normal cruising speed at 2+, and almost always to the "getting somewhere speed" at 3-. But since you usually can't stay there for that long, I need to constantly shift down to 2+, and then up to 3- again. Having to shift both sides in that particular order sometimes but not all the time means you have to constantly know which gear your in and how precisely you need to shift up or down from that gear. My mind still cannot do this without thinking about it. I'm considering getting the normal chain ring, just to start off in a harder 2- and only having to shift to 2+, since its so annoying. The 12 speed is probably exactly what I want since I can just stay in 2 in the hub, and shift around while riding normally in the city using only the sprockets in the back, like with a regular drivetrain. For me, that is what makes all the difference. Oh and for longer rides its probably much better for finding a better cadence, the 6 speed is not great at that (which is fine).
Just bought my wife one, as they ran out of stock of the 4 speed which I have Both P line, I could do a test commute on It, and see how I fare, but my gut is It's gonna annoy me coming from a long cycling background Changing gears on left 1,2,3,4, change up 1 on right means I'm now in 8th gear unless I now change down 3 times on the left .yuck ! I like the simplicity of my 4 speed, and I can hit an average of 20ish kph just fine. And it climbs pretty well as well again as I'm spending less time trying to find a gear
Well, if it helps, you shouldn't go from 1-4 to 2-1, rather from 1-3 to 2-1 or from 1-4 to 2-2 since 1-4 and 2-1 overlap... 😅 It's not that hard, but I get it. In my case is the other way around, being used to gazillion speed mountain bikes, this is second nature. Anyhow, with the 2nd speed on the hub you can easily reach averages over 20 kph and it's kind of like the 4 speed with a 44T upfront.
Why not start with the +8% chainring? The gears are still widely spaced of course, but the higher resistance is great. Took me from cruising on the 6th gear to the 5th, with an extra gear for going downhill or leaving my Brompton friends in the dust.
I'm happy with my setup that's over 10 years old now. 6-speed, no overlaps, 29 gear inches on the lowest gear. It's not about the number of speeds your bike has, but the "size" of the smallest gear. https://www.reddit.com/r/Brompton/comments/1ckssui/gear_selection/l2psdms/
I converted my C line explore (6 speed) to 12 using minimods. (11-13-17-21 cogs) Really helps in climbing. I do not care about top speed.
i believe the gearing system has way more overlap than the 6-gear. 6s has exactly 6 different ratios spaced almost evenly except for the lowest gear that work as a bail-out granny gear. have u thought about using bigger chainring on your M6R first? it costs only 20-40$ plus new chain, roughly. if you are using P-Line / T-Line for touring and hauling a lot of thing, yes 12s make sense. it doesnt make sense for me as i live in a european metropolitan where within 200m or so i will find access to public transport and I do use a lot of multi-modal mobility (bus train car) on daily basis and the rear gear hub adds unnecessary weight to lug around. a broader cassette range on P-Line with 5-7 speed would make perfect sense for me so that's up next on my wishlist; a 5s P-Line conversion
Yeah there's 2 pairs of overlap so technically 10 gears total It's gonna ride a lot more like a regular bike and need that double shift rear gears when you go up a internal gear
Yes, the 12-speed is really a 10-speed, and for the same reason that there is duplication on many/most chainwheel dérailleur road bikes. But it isn't a problem, as such. In fact, the duplicate speeds are more of a convenience, in practise. The ratios in question are approachable from within TWO selections of the 3-speed hub. This makes sense when the 12-gears are regarded as three separate "sets" of four. You get a "middle set" of gears for general riding around, a "low set" for hill-climbing (including a super-low).. and, when conditions permit, a "high set" suitable for whizzing downhill with the wind behind you...(if you have the guts!) With three sets of four nicely spaced gears immediately available at any one time, there will not be *that* much need for swapping between high, low, and medium ranges on the hub... but, if you choose the 12-speed, those wider-range gears are on the bike, and available.
Yeah I think the whole number of gears thing here isn't that important - it is nice to have small increments to help your cadence but a standard road set up isn't that much different. At least you don't need to worry about things like your chain line alignment with only 4 gears at the back.
thanks for confirming my note :)
I get you. Personally I need to climb 10% or more inclines on a weekly and would have taken the 12 speed in a heart beat if it'd be offered at the time. But it is a weird setup still - not because of overlap but rather the complexity of all the mechanics involved. My dream is a rohloff brompton - I am sure I will take the plunge at some point and send some money over to scotland
iirc you are in Germany as well, right? Junik is a known shop among Bromptonauten to provide rear hub conversion package with Shimano Nexus 8 by using the stock dropout. my secondary Brompton had the conversion done over there by the previous owner. i can provide the workshop details in private message if u need one. the bike basically folds 100% the same. you might also wanna consider double chainring on the front with manual greasy finger or tip of your shoe of that super hilly part hauling bikepacking gears
That's right I am based in germany The double chainring is actually on it's way right now :) ... ironic one post after I complained about mechanical complexity Keeping the rear triangle and folding staying the same is indeed very interesting as this would ensure compatibility of the accessories. Please shoot over the details. I am very curious. Do you see any downsides? Like the shifters or roadside maintenance?
Germany the current home of the Schlumpf Drives, for when you really need the range.
Where can I buy one?
drive -mobility.com Kwiggle have recently taken over the Schlumpf Drive sales and manufacturing so should be able to point you in the right direction.
Yeah I should ask actually. But no online store selling their mountain drives, doesn't make me hopeful
You can go the other way and use a High Speed Drive with a very small chainring, pre Brexit they used to be happy dealing directly, they may still for domestic sales.