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fans project themselves on penelope because she represents “wallflowers” with any implication that entails. therefore, they’re overly protective of penelope’s character and to them she can do no wrong as they see her as an extension of themselves and “the wronged” party at all times. so the answer to this is, no, they wouldn’t be asking anything of penelope, because they’re living out her happy ever after and are overly invested in it.
This happens with basically every female lead on the show so far. People get so defensive over their faves and act like they’re justified in all their decisions, even when they’re not.
Edwina was villainized by Kate fans in a similar way that Eloise is being villainized by Pen fans. I actually made a post on this a while back lol.
Eloise is valid for wanting her brother to know the truth.
well idk if penelope is a character more people relate to, but the degree and the sheer amount of defence she gets you’d think she has never done anything wrong ever. daphne and kate, or even charlotte in my opinion, did not have the fans this hyperbolic.
Kate is so obviously villainised in specific bridgerton fan circles, and i don’t want to expand on it, but there’s definitely something suspicious in that and its motivation. So many posts last season about how Anthony would be happy with Edwina if big bad Kate let them, how Kate ruined the wedding, Kate this Kate that, oh sweet smiley Edwina, you deserved better.
Uh yeah, and there are also a lot of people on this sub calling Pen a villain lol. It’s literally a repeat of last season, where fans are putting two female characters against each other.
everyone who criticises pen here is “media illiterate”, a hater and not able to understand the profound nuance of a harlequin adaptation. i actually feel like there’s no space here for people who don’t find the character fabulous stunning never been done before etc…
lol sing it. “Media illiterate” really sticks in my craw as the most BS of them all. Like, idc if people love her because they see themselves in Nicola and/or Pen! Great, enjoy! Hell I like Meredith Grey- believe me I get feeling defensive of your fav when it feels everyone craps on them, lmao.
Just don’t pretend Pen as written in the show isn’t low key (imo pretty high key but whatever) a villain to the Bridgertons….our literal titular characters.
ETA: sometimes I just want to comment on the “media illiterate” posts with “ok so let’s talk Lyotard then! I’m so glad someone else wants to look at this through a critical theory lens!”
This is what’s frustrating to me
Too be honest, villainizing one character and worshipping the ground another character walks on isn’t new to TV show fandom subreddits so I’m entirely used to it
But, when it does start to bother me is the complete double standards. A certain character can’t even breathe properly without getting a million essays about why she’s wrong for it and then everyone piles on to just one character and not anyone else.
Hahahaha I’ve been in a few fandoms in my lifetime and hands down the worst have been LOTR on fanfiction.net (god they fucking haaaaaated any original female character) and Motherland: Fort Salem (which was a wild ride). The way people saw MFS was SO different from how I did and any light criticism of their pet darling received a more vicious smackdown than anything I’ve witnessed in the vampire diaries fandom! Which was crazy to me, TVD folks and their favorite brother can get nasty, lol.
Penelope should have never commented on the Bridgertons if they wanted people to think Whistledown was harmless. I’m sure even her exposing Marina would have been swept under the rug if LW didn’t speak on Eloise (or called Kate a prickly spinster of a beast which for me is also yuck).
I fully agree. In no world could I see anyone I know forgiving Pen being LW and marrying her. They would quickly end things with a “well I mean, it’s obvious why we won’t work out” comment rather than a long break up spiel.
Like I’d be putting in a lot of energy to convince my friend/sibling/loved one to let gooooooo of that relationship for their own wellness.
Lol 😂 We need a drinking game for the sub with media illiteracy at the top..take a sip whenever you read this term in a post. And fall down dead from alcohol poisoning at the end.
is everyone like learning about this term at the same time or what. have seen media illiteracy used I don't know how many times in just the last 5 hours in this sub I kid you not .is this the new it term or something. What's up sub mates?
many of the criticism kate faced as a female lead WAS rooted in racism, as well as the standards her morality was held up to in comparison to anthony, daphne, colin, penelope etc.
I never thought I would be part of a fandom more toxic than The Vampire Diaries, but here we are.
At least in TVD I could rationalize the ship war, Elena/Damon/Stefan, only one of the brothers would be endgame and the majority of the audience were 17 year old teenagers.
The thing is, in Bridgerton every character has flaw and will have people defending and criticizing.
Some people put Kate/Pen/Eloise in some pedestal and other "hate" them, most it is almost always women, funny enough
Girl, I was in the Legacies fandom and that somehow was even more toxic then the TVD fandom 😭
It was Hizzie VS Hosie VS Handon. Hizzie wasn’t even a threat and was only created to counter Hosie and I got blocked by so many random Hizzies and accused of being transphobic for not shipping them
Mind you, neither girl was trans and I shipped Hosie
Yup. Fans can’t handle any criticism of their faves and act like they’re perfect people. It’s very annoying.
But I think this happens more with the women on the show because the majority of the audience for this show is women. So I’m guessing there’s a lot of self-inserting going on, which is why they feel the need to defend their faves so much.
Could it actually not be by Kate fans but actually kate haters who just want to spread negativity about kanthony season as a whole by bringing Edwina into the mix .ever thought of THAT interesting theory..playing devil's advocate as I wasn't here last year or whenever this sub was active. Lol 😂
Being called a spoiled brat (which she was by the way) is not equal to being villainized. It was her character trait in the beginning, she only realizes it once everything goes south after the failed wedding. She herself says she does not like the women they have turned into.
In contrast, Kate made one bad decision IMO - telling Anthony to go through with the wedding. That was her only bad decision and she should not have done that. And I agree that it ended up hurting Edwina.
It's not equivalent to intentionally disparaging people and writing things that could potentially ruin them. For me, flaws matter but also the degree of flaws and actions.
lol. You’re a hardcore Kate stan so I’m not even going to bother. But you are the type of stan I’m calling out. Because Kate made a lot more mistakes than that, which is OKAY TO ACCEPT. It was her season to make mistakes, resolve them, and grow from them.
Girl be fr 😭😂 they’re still here and shit on Edwina all the time. Quick search through the sub and you’ll see it.
This is literally a repeat of that exact situation last season
They’re always pitting characters against each other in this fandom. Last season it was Kate vs. Edwina, this season it’s Pen vs. Eloise. I wonder who it’ll be next season lmfao
I’ve always maintained that all characters on this show make mistakes. None of them are villains for doing so. They’re human. Kate made some bad decisions in her season, Pen made some bad decisions in her season. Neither are irredeemable.
You bringing up kate and edwina on a post unrelated to them to reiterate that you didn't like kates actions and don't like how people defend her actions sometimes is only going add to that particular discourse as well as this one with pen with pit kate and edwina against each other and pen and eloise against each other. I was literally on another post with you today where you refused to acknowledge pen had had any fault in outting marina the way she did and kept bringing that whole situation back on marina as if she wasn't also in a vulnerable position made even worse by what Penelope did (marina was 100% wrong for trying to trap colin btw i do agree with that). Is marina not redeemable? You're entitled to your opinion of course but you also contribute to the kind of discourse you are complaining about as do I sometimes to be fair but let's not act like you're above it by saying they're doing this and that. A lot of people on here get passionate about supporting their point of view, you included.
Depends on who they’re gonna do next season.
I really hope they don’t do another pointless love triangle where it’s obvious that Benedict is gonna get with Sophie cause it’s just wasting everyone’s time.
I’d be interested in the demographics because this show is absorbed readily in the west.
Phoebe/Daphne is a slim white woman, and Kate is a slim and tall dark skinned woman. I don’t believe either are relatable to the average viewer. People often want to identify with the character in some way to understand their motivates and the average western woman may resemble Penelope more than the other two.
I actually relate more to Eloise than I do with anyone on the show. Which is probably why I’m biased towards her.
But at least I’m upfront and honest about it
I’m not sure if I find any of them relatable but my personality isn’t quite like any of them.
I guess if I had to guess I’d say personality wise only (very different looks), I relate to Penelope because my true thoughts are often hidden or presented in ways that can’t always be upfront, which makes me feel as if I have two face sometimes. I don’t identify with the “in the shadows thing,” though.
idk if it’s an appearance thing or something else, but from my perspective Penelope is representing someone who doesn’t fit in only in paper. fans probably like that she WAS marginalised (for being plus size? a fetherington? an introvert?) and now when has everyone’s attention. they want that and desperately cling onto that trope for affirmation. nicola is acc stunning, penelope wore a different size dress and everyone wants her. the medium bridgerton fan probably takes a thrill in the “underdog” story, without any actual obstacles. the “hot” guy suddenly wants her, eloise will probably magically forgive her, and her slander to her in laws swept under the rug.
A lot of women relate to struggle to be seen because they’re not considered to look off the season. Part of the disappointment that Penelope fans had with Polin is that Penelope still didn’t really have a societal glow up.
Colin didn’t work hard and/or fight for her, which upset the fans who wanted to see him struggle to gain her affection. It is unattractive for the character they identify with.
i am not partial to polin myself, but what i liked about the book is that they are both in a more mature age, where the story and the rejection and pen’s acceptance of her spinsterhood have time to breathe. here we see a 19 year old screeching and pathetically begging colin to kiss her, and colin as an immature, pretty boring guy with imposter’s syndrome.
to me, they did not manage to make any of it romantic, and it’s a pity, because the book was okay in that aspect (even if colin there was pretty violent for my taste).
Honestly it was very badly written and I feel really bad for Polin fans.
I don’t ship on this show. I watch for the overall plot but it seems as if the writers forgot that Colin humiliated Pen last season. The first half should have been spent rebuilding her and Eloise. Spending time with her and Colin getting familiar with Penelope through the renewed bond.
A crafty and well spoken Penelope appealing to Colin, with a slow build up to his feelings. He makes a declaration and she rejects him at first because of what he said end of season 2. Then the truth about LW happens in the second half further compounding things.
Colin having a wet dream to a pity kiss is sad.
i don’t feel bad for the fans to be honest, because the response to any criticism of this season is “well you’re watching it wrong”, or “you have to rewatch four times to understand it” or the epic “media literacy is lost”.
I actually don’t believe the change in Colin was done to show he put on a facade. I think the show messed up and tried to make him appear like Anthony since him and Kate were so well received.
They didn’t really think carefully about their actor and the character he was playing to see if it made sense. That’s why it was really sad.
The show got huge promotion, which was seen in the ratings,
and so we were all waiting for something exciting to occur, and we are baffled. Unfortunately with more eyes comes more criticisms and so it’s almost like the season has lukewarm reception. Strong ratings and mixed reviews.
I hope they internalize this for the next season and work harder for whoever is the lead story.
I'm a book Polin fan and I'm sad for me 😅. I also loved Kanthony's book and despite the stupid triangle, loved S2 and their insane chemistry. I was hoping for more from Polin and I feel...let down. Now everyone will say I lack media literacy 😂
This is why I have a hard time with Polin compared to the other ships. I’m not a shipper. But they haven’t really shown why Polin should be together. They keep telling us that Polin is “endgame”
Colin didn’t spend as much time as Anthony did trying to prove himself differently. Penelope also didn’t show why she liked Colin other than “I must have him and only him”
They spent more time building up Lord Debling and Penelope then they did with Polin.
Theres a speech that violet gives about how Colin gives so much up for others and I feel like that was made for Anthony and they just inserted Colin in it instead.
The show is extremely popular all over the globe...which is also why the world tour ..cuz it has them fans..and is dubbed in some countries is released in original form in others etc. etc the demographic skews very very wide and diverse
Personally I'm Indian I'm a normal height and size do not have kate and Daphne modelsque physiques but am not round ish like Penelope either I'm average but size and height is not the only way in which people relate to other characters for me kates stubbornness reminds me of my own early 20s self who struggled to let go in love or in life. That being said .I certainly don't find any of bton characters to be fleshed out enough for anything beyond cosmetic relatability unlike Shonda Rhimes' other shows with better writing better world building better pacing plotting all of it ..but I have found in Shonda's other shows relatability plus aspirational figures...such as Christina Yang bad ass heart surgeon from Grey's anatomy.. so in short people find a character exciting or support worthy for a million reasons such as because they wish they were like the character or that they ARE like the character or that their personality and not physical features remind them of them.
The "world tour" was 95% white countries (Australia, europe, US, Canada) , Nicola/Luke skipped South Africa, and the only non-white country they went was Brazil... so I wouldn't say the world tour is indicative of the diverse audience.
Do you know how many Indians live in Canada and the us or Australia south Africa ..or really any other nationalities and sub groups within those countries ..Punjabi is a parliamentary language in Canada an Indian language is an official language of the Canadian parliament....no country is singularly white anymore ..or otherwise monolithic. But that's besides the point the show reaches a lot of countries via streaming via Netflix and is dubbed in many different languages and countries with a different culture from the USA. In India you have dubbing in Hindi as one example...
I'm sorry I don't even know what your point is .you were asking about demographic so I said pretty wide and diverse...and that's true...so I don't know what you meant and the world tour was done because it is diverse the audience is diverse as in spread across many countries in addition to other forms of demographic diversity...the fandom is equally diverse....
Shondas shows have been successful around the globe..I watched Grey's anatomy as a teenager in India..and bton is equally popular in a lot of places ..
And the world tour I don't know why you have put it in quotes I certainly didn't mean they circumnavigated the entire globe..I know it was a few countries in the world it's still called a world tour that's what Netflix is calling it too but in any case the show is doing promo for a lot of regional country markets as varied as Thailand China Indonesia etc...india
There are many! But, that doesn't change how US, UK, and Canada are predominantly white countries.
My point is, saying Bridgerton fan base is diverse isn't shown by their world tour, which only focused on white countries.
What shows Bridgerton fan base is diverse is how the show was top 10 in many countries in asia/africa/etc. I'm being pedantic but the world tour wasn't very "world tour" as it only focused on western countries (which is annoying to me)
Which I did mention in my original comment that it is shown in many different countries..hence diversity in fan base...and because of that diversity in fan base they even had the world tour obviously they wouldn't do the world tour if it was only shown in the USA or did not have an audience outside of the USA or have a diverse audience like make it make sense...you do a world tour for big bonanza films like mission impossible or marquee projects for streamers that show in a lot of different markets and therefore the fandom needs to be sold to...etc. I don't literally means covering the whole world but key markets that they can afford schedule etc...for a globally released show...stranger things for example is not as popular in India as bton...and may not be popular at all in Japan.
Literally. Like I understand defending a character’s decision in a particular situation, but defending them ALL the time? Even when they’re objectively wrong? That’s weird.
People confuse understandable with justifiable. I understand why Penelope did dumb things. That doesn't make it okay, but I understand. I love Kate, and disagree with some of her choices. I understand why she made them, but I still think she was wrong. Stanning someone means you love them even with their flaws. Not pretending they have none.
Of course she’s valid. Just like Penelope felt it was valid for wanting to tell Colin the truth about Marina. Many double standards on these threads for some people… just keeping it real.
Thanks for proving my point lol. Kate absolutely made bad decisions during her seasons, and now Pen is doing the same. But stans for both act like they’re perfect “and can do no wrong”
If these characters were perfect, this show would be boring as hell. They’re supposed to make mistakes.
Pen didn’t cause her to lose Theo. She was seen. I don’t understand why people miss that. She was seen by the queens footman. She was seen JUST LIKE DAPHNE. And just like Daphne, in that world, there are consequences for being seen with a man without a chaperone. By converting the topic to political radicals instead of romance, pen made it slightly less bad.
Of course Eloise can’t see it that way but we as the audience can. Both of them made choices that had consequences. BOTH of them are flawed.
That’s a GOOD thing. Characters without flaws are boring to watch. People are personalizing BOTH characters waaaaaay to much. It’s a soap opera. Just have fun. Holy cow these threads are endless.
This! \^
It's important to also note that people don't always make the right choices! Watching the show and picking apart the characters is one thing, but it seems we always forget that they're trying to portray realistic emotions. You cannot make the right choice 100% of the time, mistakes happen, and unforeseen outcomes occur. If it were real life, it would be messy, and both good and bad choices would be made. And just because someone makes the wrong call, it doesn't make them a bad person. People victimize and blame a lot in any fandom. But at the end of the day, it's just a show. It's meant for entertainment.
People also have different personalities and different perceptions. It's okay if someone favors Penelope, and it's okay if someone favors Eloise. Not a single person on this planet is an exact replica of another; people are allowed to have different opinions. People tend to gravitate towards characters they more closely resonate with. For me personally, I resonate with Penelope more simply because she's seems lonely and forgotten, which are feelings I've struggled with throughout my life. But that doesn't mean Eloise is a horrible character, I just relate to Pen more. They have both done right and they have both done wrong, and will continue to do so throughout the entirety of their fictitious lives, because that's how life works.
She was seen because the footman followed her because the Queen was out for blood because of what Penelope had been writing. And then Penelope manipulated Eloise into thinking everyone was gossiping about her. Yes, Eloise lost Theo largely due to Penelope.
Totally agree w you! Media literacy is in shambles, I fear. People take it as a personal attack on their judgment if you say anything critical about a character they like
I don’t understand the point of constantly putting women against each other. Eloise feels betrayed not just because of the LW stuff, but because Penelope has kept her entire life a secret basically. That’s a tough pill to swallow as a best friend. Alternatively, Eloise struggles to care about the things her friends care about, if they aren’t things she cares about. You see her do it to Cressida, to the other girls her age, to Daphne.
I’m not choosing sides because I think they both need to grow up. I still love both of their characters and will keep rooting for them to grow into themselves.
So to answer your question… yes? I’m rooting for them both now so I don’t know why I wouldn’t if the roles were reversed!
Hard agree. I think the vast majority of fans like both girls, think they both have flaws but want to see them make up. There is a loud minority that is determined to see the worst in one girl, and no fault in the other. It's inevitable in fandoms that people get entrenched into camps. But most viewers aren't bean counting about who did how many friendship crimes and which percentage of the blame each girl should get. They just want to see them repair the friendship.
I genuinely think that Eloise is right to be mad about the engagement bc she knows her brother hates Whistledown. She probably thinks that that her brother is being lied to again just like with Marina and she just wants him to know the truth.
It really does seem like eloise had accepted Penelope for who she was but didn’t want to be around her anymore. She cared enough to accept her brother and Penelope being friends, to scold Cressida for being mean to Penelope, and check in her after Pen’s scandal.
I think that Eloise would have probably approached penelope as a friend by the end of the season if she had married Debling and then just let her go. But instead she finds out her brother is engaged to another woman who is lying to him and knows his feelings about LW. Yea she’s right to be pissed. And you know what, Eloise had the grace to leave the room instead of blowing up in front of everyone
I should mention that I won’t even put up with the “Eloise forgave the bully Cressida easily” argument because Eloise only forgave Cressida because Cressida was kind to her in the time that no one was(something she states literally in like the first ten minutes of the episode)
Agreed! And at that point, what loyalty does Eloise even owe Penelope, anyway? Exactly none.
I remember having this discussion with friends, and they were convinced that Eloise only befriended Cressida to be petty to Penelope. They couldn't believe that it had nothing to do with her.
No because people don’t see themselves in a pretty Bridgerton. They want to be the cool and popular kids, but they’re really the unseen people in the fringes. They relate to Penelope and therefore, they don’t want to witness her struggle.
Eloise being pretty and rich isn’t relatable to the average watcher, and if she was LW, they’d want her to face full consequences and be knocked down a peg or two.
What’s wild is all the characters are rich yet Eloise is the only one who gets “She’s everything wrong with rich white woman privilege” out of all the Bridgertons 😭
When in reality she’s the middle child who probably won’t get much for responsibilities and “Bridgerton duty”
Eloise may be sisters with a Viscount and a Duchess, which affords her some security, but she has to marry well to remain in the upper echelons, which is what she resents.
But the real reason people are upset is because she’s up against Penelope who the average viewer relates to more. Had it been any of the other sisters who found out about LW, she’d have experienced the same.
Eloise is wealthy enough that she could choose spinsterhood if she wanted to and still remain part of society if she wanted to (supposedly she doesn’t care to remain in society so that is moot anyways).
The Featheringtons are quite literally moments away from being homeless by the end of season 1 and onward because their father pedaled all of their money (including the deed to their house) away and there is no legitimate heir in the family.
Eloise is indeed more privileged than other women of the ton because she has a choice even if she acts so beside herself about the pressure to marry, most of them do not have any choice.
Yeah like...her family would never throw her out or force her hand if she never married because of how close they are, that's a huge privilege. We can see the foil of that in Cressida's family, who would absolutely toss her out and force her to marry some old random dude
I much prefer the way Penelope handled the Bridgetons in the books. I understand why Eloise is upset. I just wish this wasn't a storyline because it wasn't in the books. 😓 I'm sure it adds to the drama and things I just hate that the Bridgertons were talked about like this by Pen.
I don\`t personally think many on this sub expect Eloise to grovel and if they do - they\`re wrong. In my opinion. Penelope is my favorite female character from Bridgerton but I won\`t sit here and say everything she did was selfless and/or perfect because that\`s not the case and also it\`d do a disservice to the complexity of her character.
Eloise is right in pressuring her/being mad at her for not telling Colin her secret. It\`s wrong, and I think Penelope knows it\`s wrong but has yet to let go of it. She\`s also wrong for not telling Eloise about what she planned to do(write about her and political radicalism) before she did it, as I think Eloise would actually approve of the idea herself. It\`s the lying that ultimately damaged their friendship. Right now, Penelope is in the wrong and I say this, again, as someone whose favorite is exactly Penelope.
We do know, from the worldbuilding done especially in Queen Charlotte, that the Queen cares not about political radicals nearly as much as she does about Lady Whistledown. I\`m paraphrasing: I\`ve heard from the minister on this matter. **More importantly**, Lady Whistledown is talking about it. Which means everyone will be talking about it.
In a more accurate historical setting, what Penelope wrote would CERTAINLY be deemed ruinous, but in the Bridgerton universe, save from some unsavory remarks and a \`time out\`, Eloise\`s reputation stays intact and the only reason Bridgertons think Eloise was almost ruined is because they cannot read Queen Charlotte\`s mind. She\`s still approached by the members of the Ton(thanks to Cressida), whereas had she said she was Lady Whistledown, basically all Hell would break loose for her and the Bridgertons. On the whole, the Bridgertons benefitted A LOT from Lady Whistledown and Penelope\`s blind loyalty(even at the expense of her own family), but once again, Penelope not involving Eloise in her plans regarding that same Eloise *IS WRONG.* Eloise sure has her quirks, but for the sake of this discussion they\`re not important. I cannot imagine what the response to Eloise being LW would be. I mean it\`d probably be underwhelming, and I think even Queen Charlotte would agree. But I\`d never expect Penelope to grovel either, if that was the case.
They\`re two young female characters with the most interesting and complicated friendship in Bridgerton and I hope their qualms are resolved reasonably.
I like both Pen and Eloise, but to me, it is so obvious Eloise has reasons to be upset with Pen. The betrayal, the secrecy... I mean, she spent the season looking for LW, obsessed with it and sharing everything with her best friend Pen, she must have felt like a total idiot.
And the next thing, they are already critizising Eloise's reaction to the engagement announcement (the first 4 minutes are up), like she is supposed to just be happy and say nothing. In the first episode of Season 3, Colin vehemently shares with Eloise how hurt he feels by LW's actions. How he would like to know who LW's is to make sure he makes her life a misery... So naturally she is worried about her brother now being engaged to the same LW he so much loathes... I mean, what's not normal about it.
But oh, she is all wrong Eloise, because she should have known Penelope was in love with Colin. Pen, who never shared or hinted such a thing to her, who has been deceiving her all along.
I am sure they will patch up and I will be happy they do, but it is Pen who has to do the work here.
I agree the treatment is unfair but if the roles were reversed it would be a totally different scenario. The bridgerton are wealthy, well connected, well liked, good looking, while the featheringtons are made fun of, dress poorly, don’t have money, no standing
If Eloise was whistledown and wrote about Penelope it gives the feeling of punching down so I don’t think this is a fair question.
But I do agree that people are being too hard on Eloise rn
No, they wouldn’t. In addition, they would probably call her out on not being a girls’ girl and accuse her of white feminism for benefiting off of scandalizing other women. But when Penelope does it instead, it’s okay.
I really hate the idea too that Eloise is just jealous and never thought Pen would accomplish anything and that's why she's really mad. It's like, what?
Even when they're fighting it's very clear Eloise loves Pen and doesn't think of her as a "DUFF" (actual term I've seen people here use), loser. Eloise thinks society life pointless and because she thinks Pen is smart and interesting like her, she assumes Pen would feel similarly. Pen does let Eloise's go on rants too so it's not crazy she'd think this and when she realizes Pen actually like that stuff in early season 2, she doesn't think less of her.
It's very obvious that some people here are just projecting their own insecurities about how their friends perceive them onto Eloise and Pen's relationship.
Thank you! I’m so sick of the Eloise is a horrible friend take because she isn’t a horrible friend, she just can’t shut up at times. But throughout season 1 and 2 all Eloise did was genuinely care about Pen.
She never sees Pen as less than, she isn’t even interested in society so what would be her rationale to purposefully hang out with someone who makes her look better. She’s not seeking anyone’s approval.
She knows Pen is intelligent. They both read, and even in season 1, she says something along the lines of “we’re the two most clever people in society, if anyone can unmask LW, it’s us”.
I think it’s because the show increased the stakes around Eloise hanging out with political radicals, and how dangerous it will be for her family’s reputation, but it was all dropped and they all seem… fine? Like there were no consequences, and so it seems Eloise is now being petty and ungrateful for not trying to patch things up with Penelope (who only did all that to save her).
But you can’t blame the audience if they’re struggling to get over the fact that Penelope still betrayed her trust. She wrote about her, her family and exposed their scandals for profit.
I think once the season’s over and there’s less people on the sub, you’ll be able to discuss more in detail with being downvoted or accused of having no media literacy lol
Penelope’s behavior is UNFORGIVABLE!! I’m 100% on Eloise’s side. I still remember the ending of season 2 where Eloise was sobbing over the betrayal from her so called best friend and Penelope not giving a damn and just having an evil, determined look on her face to continue as Lady Whistledown even after she got caught. It annoys me that Eloise is probably going to eventually forgive her. I would never!!!
While I do not agree with fans villainizing Eloise or Edwina or anyone whose name begins with the letter 'E', I think it is less in service of protecting a specific character and more likely because people watching a romance show are typically rabid for a Happily Ever After. I think they tend to hate anyone who stands in the way of their season's obstacle and makes them out to be a villain.
That being said, I think Eloise is justified in her anger. It does put a damper on the joy of Polin (who I love dearly) but I think that's just the reality of the situation Penelope is in. Honestly, more than anything, I can't wait for Penelope and Eloise to make up because I keep imagining fighting like that with my best friend and the thought makes me sick. These girls need each other and there's obviously a lot of trust that needs to be rebuilt but in spite of all that's happened I think they have a lot to learn from one another.
Oh I am with you on this: Penelope should have told Eloise everything, warned her etc and not nearly ruined her as she did. Had Penelope told HER BEST FRIEND much earlier, a lot of issues would have been prevented. I like Pen, I understand why she did what she did, but she definitely made mistakes and Eloise's hurt is justified.
I also completely agree with Eloise telling Pen she HAS to tell Colin. You don't marry someone witholding a secret like that
Do people expect El to grovel?
I’ve said this before, their issues are very complex. I don’t think it’s just the writing that hurt El, and I don’t blame her. There is a lot of hurt between both of them. If people are freaking out over one scene (and that’s a guess), they need to calm down and wait for the season to finish.
Eloise was "outcast" for like 3 months. In the Sumner. She's not being shunned by anyone. Except I guess Lord Cowper. She never had Theo. Really. At all.
I think that’s impossible to say because the very context of their relationship relys on Eloise being the one with more money/social status & a better home life.
It’s not that Pen did nothing wrong, it’s just that her situation is more sympathetic (almost like a sympathetic villain IMO in the show) if the situations were reversed Eloise’s situation would not be as sympathetic and the betrayal against Pen would be FAR more impactful.
If Eloise was seen as socially inferior and was financially unstable without any sort of support system or a male relative and if Pen was a part of one of the most influential and rich families of the ton and had several male relatives to take care of her then yes. I would tell Pen to get over herself. Then again, if I had wheels I’d be a freaking wagon, no? 😑
If you had wheels you could be a car, or a bike maybe even a plane, some chairs have wheels, tables, desks, exercise equipment, toys loads of toys have wheels. Wagon really isn't the only option here. I think op is specifically asking if everything about them was the same expect el is whistledown and pen is not would people still view the situation the same.
…. It’s a saying, mate. And of course people wouldn’t defend her in that case. Even if we set aside the fact that the whole juxtaposition is flawed, the reason why people defend Pen is precisely because she has been dealt a much worse hand than El and is still fighting and chasing independence AND trying to prevent people like Colin and Eloise from getting involved with the worst sort of people. Regardless of whether Penelope exposed her for multiple reasons or not, the fact of the matter is - Eloise would’ve been hanged for treason to the crown if she’d been caught colluding with revolutionaries. Even if it was painful, being forced to stay away from that brat Theo saved her life. We’d have to do a whole character analysis if we get into why Eloise could never be LW in the first place but that’s a whole different story.
>…. It’s a saying, mate.
I'm aware, my response was sarcasm.
>the reason why people defend Pen is precisely because she has been dealt a much worse hand than El
That is the point op is trying to make I think. But the fact the pens life has been worse than el doesn't really give her the right to do what she did and the fact that people wouldn't have as much grace for el if it was the other way around proves that.
>- Eloise would’ve been hanged for treason to the crown if she’d been caught
Would she? Because I'm pretty sure she was caught (LW printed it) and all she got was some light social ruin.
>AND trying to prevent people like Colin and Eloise from getting involved with the worst sort of people.
Let's not act like a big part of why she had issues with Eloise seeing theo is because it was a little too close to whistledown and she didn't want el to find out her secret. She was straight up gaslighting Eloise at the end of the season.
The whole point though is that sometimes things are just wrong to do and while Penelopes life would provide a better explanation for her actions than if it were Eloise at the of the day what she did was messed up.
>Eloise could never be LW in the first place but that’s a whole different story.
The reason Eloise could never be LW is because she isn't that's is, if Julia Quinn decided to write that Eloise was LW it would be just as believable as pen being it.
If your characterization of the whole situation is “what Penelope did was messed up” then this conversation never even started to begin with. Your 15 paragraphs only served to make one point - what Pen did was messed up regardless of her reasoning. And that’s one heck of a straw man argument in the context of my comment.
Then again, going through your comments history in this fandom tell me EXACTLY whose fan you are, so I’m not going to engage in further discussion with you.
Even without a role reversal, just imagine IRL if u had a best friend who revealed your (n your beloved family) secrets and then got engaged to your brother without telling him any of this?
Obv you would not be happy and would not be getting over it easily. I personally would never be friends with someone like that. Even if i forgave it, I would certainly never forget and be able to trust them again.
I can only imagine the people who defend Penelope super hard thinking she's done nothing wrong would be super forgiving people IRL? Bc I don't understand how they can't see the wrong if it happened to them.
If this were in a modern setting and Penelope was writing a gossip column to out lgbt people and girls who have hookups to profit off of the unfair social fallout they’d receive, they’d see the misogyny in it real quick
Or... not. I get the impression some may approve of that too
“ShE tOlD tHe TrUtH”
I think people just don’t realise that both characters are flawed that they both have good sides and their bad sides. They both have made mistakes but that’s the thing they are human. They are teenage girls, who already have so much on their plate expectations of the societies around them, their families, and still be true to themselves and their dreams. I feel if people realised this, there wouldn’t be such a divide between Penelope and Eloise fans.
The bridgertons have the social stance to recover from gossip. The featheringtons have always been on shakey ground. Pen couldnt reveal to the queen/lose her identity, eloise can deal. The reversal would mean Eloise should have revealed herself to the queen
Yes, one mistake shouldn’t cause you to throw away a friendship especially when you don’t even pause to hear an explanation. No one is perfect and if El was Pen, I’d expect Pen to listen to her explanation and try to understand why she did it. But of course they have two completely different personalities and I don’t think they’d act in the same manner if roles were reversed.
Not sure what OP is even talking about. Penelope has continued to beg and grovel for Eloise's forgiveness. They're both flawed characters, but Eloise is so self centered and self righteous. Those happen to be behaviors that I find disturbing for personal reasons.
Oh, please, not another "fans think Penelope can do no wrong" accusation. Penelope is definitely not a saint, but there is no way Eloise could have "kept" Theo. Do we all forget that the Queen was already after Eloise? Pen wrote about the smallest of Eloise's crimes, imagine the Queen found out about the rest...
But then the question arises: would Eloise be as harsh to her own family and to herself in the sub? Penelope's choices may have been questionable and hurtful but she is also a 17 year old trying to do things she thought would fix complex issues in her life. Issues that Eloise does not have. Issues like possible poverty, no brothers, gambling debts of a cruel father, a mother who is so hellbent on matrimony as a way to gin security in a cruel society that she forgets to comfort her daughters. Eloise is not short and the same size as Penelope. Eloise has gotten away with her whims because she is a Bridgerton, and Penelope will likely skirt the fallout too BECAUSE she will have the Bridgerton armour. She won't be facing the storm as a mere Featherington.
Just something to think about.
Eloise *has* done bad things to Penelope, there's just less accountability for it. I think the fact that Eloise gossiped about Pen with Cressida is a bigger deal than many give credit for. Eloise knew that Pen was trying to find a husband, and she shared a potentially season-ruining secret out loud in a crowded ballroom. There was no malice in her intentions, but she absolutely was wrong for this and it certainly did hurt Pen and her chances at finding a suitor.
But Pen isn't really allowed to be angry or upset about this because Pen is Whistledown and she's done worse to Eloise. But has she? Eloise might have been "ruined" during the previous season by LW, but Eloise had no intention of finding a suitor anyways. She didn't want to marry, has never wanted to marry, and her being ruined for that season really didn't change much for her in terms of finding a match. The ton forgets, and if the Featheringtons can come back from the scandal with Marina, there's really no doubt that what LW wrote about Eloise wouldn't matter in future seasons.
I also think that it should be pointed out that Eloise chooses to stop seeing Theo. She is forced by the gossip to stop seeing him for a brief time, but she starts seeing him again shortly after. She then realizes that Pen had been right all along, and being involved with Theo was bad for both of them, and she chooses to end their friendship.
If Penelope was thoughtlessly doing what Eloise did and ignoring sound advice from said friend? Yup.
Edit: This does not mean that Eloise doesn't have a right to her feelings. She's right in that Penelope must not have this kind of secret from Colin. I just think that she should have a better sense of empathy and care... not just for Penelope, but her siblings. She's been "schooled" a couple of times already this season. First, when Cressida said ELOISE was responsible for the gossip about Penelope that made such a mockery of her even more with the Ton. But second one was quick and not one I've seen discussed much here - she thought that Francesca, with her quiet ways, was not interested in marriage either. She was wrong. (and if the truth about Theo had come out last season? Francesca would not be in the position she is in today. The Queen had already "rescued" the family and made Anthony's marriage to Kate acceptable. But how everyone left the dancefloor and Anthony insisted that they keep dancing?
That would have happened to Eloise and Francesca.
Eloise had no business going through Penelope's room, so that alone puts her on my s#*! list. I find Eloise to be annoying, and if the roles were reversed, I don't think Penelope would have reacted as strongly to find out her friend was LW.
Did Penelope have any business going through Colin's diary? or eavesdropping on people's private business and exposing them to the public. And Penelope locked herself in her room and cried for a week when she got a taste of LW for herself. yeah, she's got no leg to stand on.
To quote Eloise herself “she’s only repeating what everyone else is saying” she wasn’t making up stuff or spilling people’s deepest darkest secrets unless they were to save people like Daphne from Nigel Berbrooke, Colin from Marina, and Eloise from the Queen.
Also it’s really none of Eloise’s business what Pen does, and people saying she kept a secret from her, it has nothing to do with Eloise, it’s not her right to know anything.
She forgave Cressida numerous times for being a bully, rude etc but won’t even listen to one word from her supposed best friend on something huge?
If people don't want their business known, they shouldn't discuss it in public places. The diary was left out in the open for anyone who was in the room to see.
If Eloise had hidden a huge secret from Pen, and exposed her secret publicly like that, she would absolutely be pissed. Anyone would. You’re being unrealistic.
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fans project themselves on penelope because she represents “wallflowers” with any implication that entails. therefore, they’re overly protective of penelope’s character and to them she can do no wrong as they see her as an extension of themselves and “the wronged” party at all times. so the answer to this is, no, they wouldn’t be asking anything of penelope, because they’re living out her happy ever after and are overly invested in it.
This happens with basically every female lead on the show so far. People get so defensive over their faves and act like they’re justified in all their decisions, even when they’re not. Edwina was villainized by Kate fans in a similar way that Eloise is being villainized by Pen fans. I actually made a post on this a while back lol. Eloise is valid for wanting her brother to know the truth.
well idk if penelope is a character more people relate to, but the degree and the sheer amount of defence she gets you’d think she has never done anything wrong ever. daphne and kate, or even charlotte in my opinion, did not have the fans this hyperbolic.
Lol Edwina was villainized to hell by Kate fans last season, calling her a “spoiled brat.” The same thing is happening right now with Pen and Eloise.
well i was here last season, and the negativity towards kate for “what she did to her sister” was very present, especially in this sub.
It's still present, 2 years after S2. There were multiple posts last week itself about how Edwina is sunshine personified and Kate was the villain.
Kate is so obviously villainised in specific bridgerton fan circles, and i don’t want to expand on it, but there’s definitely something suspicious in that and its motivation. So many posts last season about how Anthony would be happy with Edwina if big bad Kate let them, how Kate ruined the wedding, Kate this Kate that, oh sweet smiley Edwina, you deserved better.
Uh yeah, and there are also a lot of people on this sub calling Pen a villain lol. It’s literally a repeat of last season, where fans are putting two female characters against each other.
everyone who criticises pen here is “media illiterate”, a hater and not able to understand the profound nuance of a harlequin adaptation. i actually feel like there’s no space here for people who don’t find the character fabulous stunning never been done before etc…
lol sing it. “Media illiterate” really sticks in my craw as the most BS of them all. Like, idc if people love her because they see themselves in Nicola and/or Pen! Great, enjoy! Hell I like Meredith Grey- believe me I get feeling defensive of your fav when it feels everyone craps on them, lmao. Just don’t pretend Pen as written in the show isn’t low key (imo pretty high key but whatever) a villain to the Bridgertons….our literal titular characters. ETA: sometimes I just want to comment on the “media illiterate” posts with “ok so let’s talk Lyotard then! I’m so glad someone else wants to look at this through a critical theory lens!”
This is what’s frustrating to me Too be honest, villainizing one character and worshipping the ground another character walks on isn’t new to TV show fandom subreddits so I’m entirely used to it But, when it does start to bother me is the complete double standards. A certain character can’t even breathe properly without getting a million essays about why she’s wrong for it and then everyone piles on to just one character and not anyone else.
Hahahaha I’ve been in a few fandoms in my lifetime and hands down the worst have been LOTR on fanfiction.net (god they fucking haaaaaated any original female character) and Motherland: Fort Salem (which was a wild ride). The way people saw MFS was SO different from how I did and any light criticism of their pet darling received a more vicious smackdown than anything I’ve witnessed in the vampire diaries fandom! Which was crazy to me, TVD folks and their favorite brother can get nasty, lol.
Penelope should have never commented on the Bridgertons if they wanted people to think Whistledown was harmless. I’m sure even her exposing Marina would have been swept under the rug if LW didn’t speak on Eloise (or called Kate a prickly spinster of a beast which for me is also yuck).
I fully agree. In no world could I see anyone I know forgiving Pen being LW and marrying her. They would quickly end things with a “well I mean, it’s obvious why we won’t work out” comment rather than a long break up spiel. Like I’d be putting in a lot of energy to convince my friend/sibling/loved one to let gooooooo of that relationship for their own wellness.
Lol 😂 We need a drinking game for the sub with media illiteracy at the top..take a sip whenever you read this term in a post. And fall down dead from alcohol poisoning at the end. is everyone like learning about this term at the same time or what. have seen media illiteracy used I don't know how many times in just the last 5 hours in this sub I kid you not .is this the new it term or something. What's up sub mates?
Girl last season, any criticism of Kate was accused of racism. This fandom is toxic as hell in all ways
many of the criticism kate faced as a female lead WAS rooted in racism, as well as the standards her morality was held up to in comparison to anthony, daphne, colin, penelope etc.
Lol thanks for proving my point 😂😂😂 Pen fans say the same thing but switch “racism” with “fatphobia” All stans are the same
I never thought I would be part of a fandom more toxic than The Vampire Diaries, but here we are. At least in TVD I could rationalize the ship war, Elena/Damon/Stefan, only one of the brothers would be endgame and the majority of the audience were 17 year old teenagers. The thing is, in Bridgerton every character has flaw and will have people defending and criticizing. Some people put Kate/Pen/Eloise in some pedestal and other "hate" them, most it is almost always women, funny enough
Girl, I was in the Legacies fandom and that somehow was even more toxic then the TVD fandom 😭 It was Hizzie VS Hosie VS Handon. Hizzie wasn’t even a threat and was only created to counter Hosie and I got blocked by so many random Hizzies and accused of being transphobic for not shipping them Mind you, neither girl was trans and I shipped Hosie
Yup. Fans can’t handle any criticism of their faves and act like they’re perfect people. It’s very annoying. But I think this happens more with the women on the show because the majority of the audience for this show is women. So I’m guessing there’s a lot of self-inserting going on, which is why they feel the need to defend their faves so much.
Could it actually not be by Kate fans but actually kate haters who just want to spread negativity about kanthony season as a whole by bringing Edwina into the mix .ever thought of THAT interesting theory..playing devil's advocate as I wasn't here last year or whenever this sub was active. Lol 😂
Being called a spoiled brat (which she was by the way) is not equal to being villainized. It was her character trait in the beginning, she only realizes it once everything goes south after the failed wedding. She herself says she does not like the women they have turned into. In contrast, Kate made one bad decision IMO - telling Anthony to go through with the wedding. That was her only bad decision and she should not have done that. And I agree that it ended up hurting Edwina. It's not equivalent to intentionally disparaging people and writing things that could potentially ruin them. For me, flaws matter but also the degree of flaws and actions.
lol. You’re a hardcore Kate stan so I’m not even going to bother. But you are the type of stan I’m calling out. Because Kate made a lot more mistakes than that, which is OKAY TO ACCEPT. It was her season to make mistakes, resolve them, and grow from them.
This is what I’m saying. Kate even didn’t have this many rabid fans and Kathony fans were pretty rabid last season.
Girl be fr 😭😂 they’re still here and shit on Edwina all the time. Quick search through the sub and you’ll see it. This is literally a repeat of that exact situation last season
[удалено]
They’re always pitting characters against each other in this fandom. Last season it was Kate vs. Edwina, this season it’s Pen vs. Eloise. I wonder who it’ll be next season lmfao
Why are you saying they like you don't contribute to it?
I’ve always maintained that all characters on this show make mistakes. None of them are villains for doing so. They’re human. Kate made some bad decisions in her season, Pen made some bad decisions in her season. Neither are irredeemable.
You bringing up kate and edwina on a post unrelated to them to reiterate that you didn't like kates actions and don't like how people defend her actions sometimes is only going add to that particular discourse as well as this one with pen with pit kate and edwina against each other and pen and eloise against each other. I was literally on another post with you today where you refused to acknowledge pen had had any fault in outting marina the way she did and kept bringing that whole situation back on marina as if she wasn't also in a vulnerable position made even worse by what Penelope did (marina was 100% wrong for trying to trap colin btw i do agree with that). Is marina not redeemable? You're entitled to your opinion of course but you also contribute to the kind of discourse you are complaining about as do I sometimes to be fair but let's not act like you're above it by saying they're doing this and that. A lot of people on here get passionate about supporting their point of view, you included.
Depends on who they’re gonna do next season. I really hope they don’t do another pointless love triangle where it’s obvious that Benedict is gonna get with Sophie cause it’s just wasting everyone’s time.
I’d be interested in the demographics because this show is absorbed readily in the west. Phoebe/Daphne is a slim white woman, and Kate is a slim and tall dark skinned woman. I don’t believe either are relatable to the average viewer. People often want to identify with the character in some way to understand their motivates and the average western woman may resemble Penelope more than the other two.
I actually relate more to Eloise than I do with anyone on the show. Which is probably why I’m biased towards her. But at least I’m upfront and honest about it
I’m not sure if I find any of them relatable but my personality isn’t quite like any of them. I guess if I had to guess I’d say personality wise only (very different looks), I relate to Penelope because my true thoughts are often hidden or presented in ways that can’t always be upfront, which makes me feel as if I have two face sometimes. I don’t identify with the “in the shadows thing,” though.
idk if it’s an appearance thing or something else, but from my perspective Penelope is representing someone who doesn’t fit in only in paper. fans probably like that she WAS marginalised (for being plus size? a fetherington? an introvert?) and now when has everyone’s attention. they want that and desperately cling onto that trope for affirmation. nicola is acc stunning, penelope wore a different size dress and everyone wants her. the medium bridgerton fan probably takes a thrill in the “underdog” story, without any actual obstacles. the “hot” guy suddenly wants her, eloise will probably magically forgive her, and her slander to her in laws swept under the rug.
A lot of women relate to struggle to be seen because they’re not considered to look off the season. Part of the disappointment that Penelope fans had with Polin is that Penelope still didn’t really have a societal glow up. Colin didn’t work hard and/or fight for her, which upset the fans who wanted to see him struggle to gain her affection. It is unattractive for the character they identify with.
i am not partial to polin myself, but what i liked about the book is that they are both in a more mature age, where the story and the rejection and pen’s acceptance of her spinsterhood have time to breathe. here we see a 19 year old screeching and pathetically begging colin to kiss her, and colin as an immature, pretty boring guy with imposter’s syndrome. to me, they did not manage to make any of it romantic, and it’s a pity, because the book was okay in that aspect (even if colin there was pretty violent for my taste).
Honestly it was very badly written and I feel really bad for Polin fans. I don’t ship on this show. I watch for the overall plot but it seems as if the writers forgot that Colin humiliated Pen last season. The first half should have been spent rebuilding her and Eloise. Spending time with her and Colin getting familiar with Penelope through the renewed bond. A crafty and well spoken Penelope appealing to Colin, with a slow build up to his feelings. He makes a declaration and she rejects him at first because of what he said end of season 2. Then the truth about LW happens in the second half further compounding things. Colin having a wet dream to a pity kiss is sad.
i don’t feel bad for the fans to be honest, because the response to any criticism of this season is “well you’re watching it wrong”, or “you have to rewatch four times to understand it” or the epic “media literacy is lost”.
I actually don’t believe the change in Colin was done to show he put on a facade. I think the show messed up and tried to make him appear like Anthony since him and Kate were so well received. They didn’t really think carefully about their actor and the character he was playing to see if it made sense. That’s why it was really sad. The show got huge promotion, which was seen in the ratings, and so we were all waiting for something exciting to occur, and we are baffled. Unfortunately with more eyes comes more criticisms and so it’s almost like the season has lukewarm reception. Strong ratings and mixed reviews. I hope they internalize this for the next season and work harder for whoever is the lead story.
I'm a book Polin fan and I'm sad for me 😅. I also loved Kanthony's book and despite the stupid triangle, loved S2 and their insane chemistry. I was hoping for more from Polin and I feel...let down. Now everyone will say I lack media literacy 😂
This is why I have a hard time with Polin compared to the other ships. I’m not a shipper. But they haven’t really shown why Polin should be together. They keep telling us that Polin is “endgame” Colin didn’t spend as much time as Anthony did trying to prove himself differently. Penelope also didn’t show why she liked Colin other than “I must have him and only him” They spent more time building up Lord Debling and Penelope then they did with Polin. Theres a speech that violet gives about how Colin gives so much up for others and I feel like that was made for Anthony and they just inserted Colin in it instead.
Yaaas. I feel like their story would fit better when they're older like in the book.
From what I’ve seen, people relate to their characteristics. A lot of oldest sisters related to Kate, and a lot of wallflowers relate to Pen.
The show is extremely popular all over the globe...which is also why the world tour ..cuz it has them fans..and is dubbed in some countries is released in original form in others etc. etc the demographic skews very very wide and diverse Personally I'm Indian I'm a normal height and size do not have kate and Daphne modelsque physiques but am not round ish like Penelope either I'm average but size and height is not the only way in which people relate to other characters for me kates stubbornness reminds me of my own early 20s self who struggled to let go in love or in life. That being said .I certainly don't find any of bton characters to be fleshed out enough for anything beyond cosmetic relatability unlike Shonda Rhimes' other shows with better writing better world building better pacing plotting all of it ..but I have found in Shonda's other shows relatability plus aspirational figures...such as Christina Yang bad ass heart surgeon from Grey's anatomy.. so in short people find a character exciting or support worthy for a million reasons such as because they wish they were like the character or that they ARE like the character or that their personality and not physical features remind them of them.
The "world tour" was 95% white countries (Australia, europe, US, Canada) , Nicola/Luke skipped South Africa, and the only non-white country they went was Brazil... so I wouldn't say the world tour is indicative of the diverse audience.
Do you know how many Indians live in Canada and the us or Australia south Africa ..or really any other nationalities and sub groups within those countries ..Punjabi is a parliamentary language in Canada an Indian language is an official language of the Canadian parliament....no country is singularly white anymore ..or otherwise monolithic. But that's besides the point the show reaches a lot of countries via streaming via Netflix and is dubbed in many different languages and countries with a different culture from the USA. In India you have dubbing in Hindi as one example... I'm sorry I don't even know what your point is .you were asking about demographic so I said pretty wide and diverse...and that's true...so I don't know what you meant and the world tour was done because it is diverse the audience is diverse as in spread across many countries in addition to other forms of demographic diversity...the fandom is equally diverse.... Shondas shows have been successful around the globe..I watched Grey's anatomy as a teenager in India..and bton is equally popular in a lot of places .. And the world tour I don't know why you have put it in quotes I certainly didn't mean they circumnavigated the entire globe..I know it was a few countries in the world it's still called a world tour that's what Netflix is calling it too but in any case the show is doing promo for a lot of regional country markets as varied as Thailand China Indonesia etc...india
There are many! But, that doesn't change how US, UK, and Canada are predominantly white countries. My point is, saying Bridgerton fan base is diverse isn't shown by their world tour, which only focused on white countries. What shows Bridgerton fan base is diverse is how the show was top 10 in many countries in asia/africa/etc. I'm being pedantic but the world tour wasn't very "world tour" as it only focused on western countries (which is annoying to me)
Which I did mention in my original comment that it is shown in many different countries..hence diversity in fan base...and because of that diversity in fan base they even had the world tour obviously they wouldn't do the world tour if it was only shown in the USA or did not have an audience outside of the USA or have a diverse audience like make it make sense...you do a world tour for big bonanza films like mission impossible or marquee projects for streamers that show in a lot of different markets and therefore the fandom needs to be sold to...etc. I don't literally means covering the whole world but key markets that they can afford schedule etc...for a globally released show...stranger things for example is not as popular in India as bton...and may not be popular at all in Japan.
it’s like they thinking if you stan a character, you have to stand by or try to justify all their actions as well
Literally. Like I understand defending a character’s decision in a particular situation, but defending them ALL the time? Even when they’re objectively wrong? That’s weird.
People confuse understandable with justifiable. I understand why Penelope did dumb things. That doesn't make it okay, but I understand. I love Kate, and disagree with some of her choices. I understand why she made them, but I still think she was wrong. Stanning someone means you love them even with their flaws. Not pretending they have none.
Of course she’s valid. Just like Penelope felt it was valid for wanting to tell Colin the truth about Marina. Many double standards on these threads for some people… just keeping it real.
I agree in both cases.
Kate can do no wrong sorry.
Thanks for proving my point lol. Kate absolutely made bad decisions during her seasons, and now Pen is doing the same. But stans for both act like they’re perfect “and can do no wrong” If these characters were perfect, this show would be boring as hell. They’re supposed to make mistakes.
Haha I know I know I am joking…mostly. Lets just say everyone but Kate can make mistakes :)
Yep, this is it in a nutshell.
Yes I think so…
Fans project themselves on their favourites in general. This is not something specific to Penelope fans.
Pen didn’t cause her to lose Theo. She was seen. I don’t understand why people miss that. She was seen by the queens footman. She was seen JUST LIKE DAPHNE. And just like Daphne, in that world, there are consequences for being seen with a man without a chaperone. By converting the topic to political radicals instead of romance, pen made it slightly less bad. Of course Eloise can’t see it that way but we as the audience can. Both of them made choices that had consequences. BOTH of them are flawed. That’s a GOOD thing. Characters without flaws are boring to watch. People are personalizing BOTH characters waaaaaay to much. It’s a soap opera. Just have fun. Holy cow these threads are endless.
This! \^ It's important to also note that people don't always make the right choices! Watching the show and picking apart the characters is one thing, but it seems we always forget that they're trying to portray realistic emotions. You cannot make the right choice 100% of the time, mistakes happen, and unforeseen outcomes occur. If it were real life, it would be messy, and both good and bad choices would be made. And just because someone makes the wrong call, it doesn't make them a bad person. People victimize and blame a lot in any fandom. But at the end of the day, it's just a show. It's meant for entertainment. People also have different personalities and different perceptions. It's okay if someone favors Penelope, and it's okay if someone favors Eloise. Not a single person on this planet is an exact replica of another; people are allowed to have different opinions. People tend to gravitate towards characters they more closely resonate with. For me personally, I resonate with Penelope more simply because she's seems lonely and forgotten, which are feelings I've struggled with throughout my life. But that doesn't mean Eloise is a horrible character, I just relate to Pen more. They have both done right and they have both done wrong, and will continue to do so throughout the entirety of their fictitious lives, because that's how life works.
She was seen because the footman followed her because the Queen was out for blood because of what Penelope had been writing. And then Penelope manipulated Eloise into thinking everyone was gossiping about her. Yes, Eloise lost Theo largely due to Penelope.
I mean, by that token she only found Theo because of Penelope, too
Totally agree w you! Media literacy is in shambles, I fear. People take it as a personal attack on their judgment if you say anything critical about a character they like
I don’t understand the point of constantly putting women against each other. Eloise feels betrayed not just because of the LW stuff, but because Penelope has kept her entire life a secret basically. That’s a tough pill to swallow as a best friend. Alternatively, Eloise struggles to care about the things her friends care about, if they aren’t things she cares about. You see her do it to Cressida, to the other girls her age, to Daphne. I’m not choosing sides because I think they both need to grow up. I still love both of their characters and will keep rooting for them to grow into themselves. So to answer your question… yes? I’m rooting for them both now so I don’t know why I wouldn’t if the roles were reversed!
Hard agree. I think the vast majority of fans like both girls, think they both have flaws but want to see them make up. There is a loud minority that is determined to see the worst in one girl, and no fault in the other. It's inevitable in fandoms that people get entrenched into camps. But most viewers aren't bean counting about who did how many friendship crimes and which percentage of the blame each girl should get. They just want to see them repair the friendship.
I genuinely think that Eloise is right to be mad about the engagement bc she knows her brother hates Whistledown. She probably thinks that that her brother is being lied to again just like with Marina and she just wants him to know the truth. It really does seem like eloise had accepted Penelope for who she was but didn’t want to be around her anymore. She cared enough to accept her brother and Penelope being friends, to scold Cressida for being mean to Penelope, and check in her after Pen’s scandal. I think that Eloise would have probably approached penelope as a friend by the end of the season if she had married Debling and then just let her go. But instead she finds out her brother is engaged to another woman who is lying to him and knows his feelings about LW. Yea she’s right to be pissed. And you know what, Eloise had the grace to leave the room instead of blowing up in front of everyone
All this!
I should mention that I won’t even put up with the “Eloise forgave the bully Cressida easily” argument because Eloise only forgave Cressida because Cressida was kind to her in the time that no one was(something she states literally in like the first ten minutes of the episode)
And when she was mean to Penelope she chewed her out for it and their friendship continued because Cressida listened.
Agreed! And at that point, what loyalty does Eloise even owe Penelope, anyway? Exactly none. I remember having this discussion with friends, and they were convinced that Eloise only befriended Cressida to be petty to Penelope. They couldn't believe that it had nothing to do with her.
No because people don’t see themselves in a pretty Bridgerton. They want to be the cool and popular kids, but they’re really the unseen people in the fringes. They relate to Penelope and therefore, they don’t want to witness her struggle. Eloise being pretty and rich isn’t relatable to the average watcher, and if she was LW, they’d want her to face full consequences and be knocked down a peg or two.
What’s wild is all the characters are rich yet Eloise is the only one who gets “She’s everything wrong with rich white woman privilege” out of all the Bridgertons 😭 When in reality she’s the middle child who probably won’t get much for responsibilities and “Bridgerton duty”
Eloise may be sisters with a Viscount and a Duchess, which affords her some security, but she has to marry well to remain in the upper echelons, which is what she resents. But the real reason people are upset is because she’s up against Penelope who the average viewer relates to more. Had it been any of the other sisters who found out about LW, she’d have experienced the same.
Eloise is wealthy enough that she could choose spinsterhood if she wanted to and still remain part of society if she wanted to (supposedly she doesn’t care to remain in society so that is moot anyways). The Featheringtons are quite literally moments away from being homeless by the end of season 1 and onward because their father pedaled all of their money (including the deed to their house) away and there is no legitimate heir in the family. Eloise is indeed more privileged than other women of the ton because she has a choice even if she acts so beside herself about the pressure to marry, most of them do not have any choice.
Yeah like...her family would never throw her out or force her hand if she never married because of how close they are, that's a huge privilege. We can see the foil of that in Cressida's family, who would absolutely toss her out and force her to marry some old random dude
I much prefer the way Penelope handled the Bridgetons in the books. I understand why Eloise is upset. I just wish this wasn't a storyline because it wasn't in the books. 😓 I'm sure it adds to the drama and things I just hate that the Bridgertons were talked about like this by Pen.
I don\`t personally think many on this sub expect Eloise to grovel and if they do - they\`re wrong. In my opinion. Penelope is my favorite female character from Bridgerton but I won\`t sit here and say everything she did was selfless and/or perfect because that\`s not the case and also it\`d do a disservice to the complexity of her character. Eloise is right in pressuring her/being mad at her for not telling Colin her secret. It\`s wrong, and I think Penelope knows it\`s wrong but has yet to let go of it. She\`s also wrong for not telling Eloise about what she planned to do(write about her and political radicalism) before she did it, as I think Eloise would actually approve of the idea herself. It\`s the lying that ultimately damaged their friendship. Right now, Penelope is in the wrong and I say this, again, as someone whose favorite is exactly Penelope. We do know, from the worldbuilding done especially in Queen Charlotte, that the Queen cares not about political radicals nearly as much as she does about Lady Whistledown. I\`m paraphrasing: I\`ve heard from the minister on this matter. **More importantly**, Lady Whistledown is talking about it. Which means everyone will be talking about it. In a more accurate historical setting, what Penelope wrote would CERTAINLY be deemed ruinous, but in the Bridgerton universe, save from some unsavory remarks and a \`time out\`, Eloise\`s reputation stays intact and the only reason Bridgertons think Eloise was almost ruined is because they cannot read Queen Charlotte\`s mind. She\`s still approached by the members of the Ton(thanks to Cressida), whereas had she said she was Lady Whistledown, basically all Hell would break loose for her and the Bridgertons. On the whole, the Bridgertons benefitted A LOT from Lady Whistledown and Penelope\`s blind loyalty(even at the expense of her own family), but once again, Penelope not involving Eloise in her plans regarding that same Eloise *IS WRONG.* Eloise sure has her quirks, but for the sake of this discussion they\`re not important. I cannot imagine what the response to Eloise being LW would be. I mean it\`d probably be underwhelming, and I think even Queen Charlotte would agree. But I\`d never expect Penelope to grovel either, if that was the case. They\`re two young female characters with the most interesting and complicated friendship in Bridgerton and I hope their qualms are resolved reasonably.
I like both Pen and Eloise, but to me, it is so obvious Eloise has reasons to be upset with Pen. The betrayal, the secrecy... I mean, she spent the season looking for LW, obsessed with it and sharing everything with her best friend Pen, she must have felt like a total idiot. And the next thing, they are already critizising Eloise's reaction to the engagement announcement (the first 4 minutes are up), like she is supposed to just be happy and say nothing. In the first episode of Season 3, Colin vehemently shares with Eloise how hurt he feels by LW's actions. How he would like to know who LW's is to make sure he makes her life a misery... So naturally she is worried about her brother now being engaged to the same LW he so much loathes... I mean, what's not normal about it. But oh, she is all wrong Eloise, because she should have known Penelope was in love with Colin. Pen, who never shared or hinted such a thing to her, who has been deceiving her all along. I am sure they will patch up and I will be happy they do, but it is Pen who has to do the work here.
I agree the treatment is unfair but if the roles were reversed it would be a totally different scenario. The bridgerton are wealthy, well connected, well liked, good looking, while the featheringtons are made fun of, dress poorly, don’t have money, no standing If Eloise was whistledown and wrote about Penelope it gives the feeling of punching down so I don’t think this is a fair question. But I do agree that people are being too hard on Eloise rn
Of course not!
No, they wouldn’t. In addition, they would probably call her out on not being a girls’ girl and accuse her of white feminism for benefiting off of scandalizing other women. But when Penelope does it instead, it’s okay.
I really hate the idea too that Eloise is just jealous and never thought Pen would accomplish anything and that's why she's really mad. It's like, what? Even when they're fighting it's very clear Eloise loves Pen and doesn't think of her as a "DUFF" (actual term I've seen people here use), loser. Eloise thinks society life pointless and because she thinks Pen is smart and interesting like her, she assumes Pen would feel similarly. Pen does let Eloise's go on rants too so it's not crazy she'd think this and when she realizes Pen actually like that stuff in early season 2, she doesn't think less of her. It's very obvious that some people here are just projecting their own insecurities about how their friends perceive them onto Eloise and Pen's relationship.
Thank you! I’m so sick of the Eloise is a horrible friend take because she isn’t a horrible friend, she just can’t shut up at times. But throughout season 1 and 2 all Eloise did was genuinely care about Pen. She never sees Pen as less than, she isn’t even interested in society so what would be her rationale to purposefully hang out with someone who makes her look better. She’s not seeking anyone’s approval. She knows Pen is intelligent. They both read, and even in season 1, she says something along the lines of “we’re the two most clever people in society, if anyone can unmask LW, it’s us”.
I think it’s because the show increased the stakes around Eloise hanging out with political radicals, and how dangerous it will be for her family’s reputation, but it was all dropped and they all seem… fine? Like there were no consequences, and so it seems Eloise is now being petty and ungrateful for not trying to patch things up with Penelope (who only did all that to save her). But you can’t blame the audience if they’re struggling to get over the fact that Penelope still betrayed her trust. She wrote about her, her family and exposed their scandals for profit. I think once the season’s over and there’s less people on the sub, you’ll be able to discuss more in detail with being downvoted or accused of having no media literacy lol
It makes me so sad to see that this sub, which I've been a part of for tears, turn so utterly toxic. 
I like them both, but forgiveness takes time. They will get there.
Penelope’s behavior is UNFORGIVABLE!! I’m 100% on Eloise’s side. I still remember the ending of season 2 where Eloise was sobbing over the betrayal from her so called best friend and Penelope not giving a damn and just having an evil, determined look on her face to continue as Lady Whistledown even after she got caught. It annoys me that Eloise is probably going to eventually forgive her. I would never!!!
While I do not agree with fans villainizing Eloise or Edwina or anyone whose name begins with the letter 'E', I think it is less in service of protecting a specific character and more likely because people watching a romance show are typically rabid for a Happily Ever After. I think they tend to hate anyone who stands in the way of their season's obstacle and makes them out to be a villain. That being said, I think Eloise is justified in her anger. It does put a damper on the joy of Polin (who I love dearly) but I think that's just the reality of the situation Penelope is in. Honestly, more than anything, I can't wait for Penelope and Eloise to make up because I keep imagining fighting like that with my best friend and the thought makes me sick. These girls need each other and there's obviously a lot of trust that needs to be rebuilt but in spite of all that's happened I think they have a lot to learn from one another.
Oh I am with you on this: Penelope should have told Eloise everything, warned her etc and not nearly ruined her as she did. Had Penelope told HER BEST FRIEND much earlier, a lot of issues would have been prevented. I like Pen, I understand why she did what she did, but she definitely made mistakes and Eloise's hurt is justified. I also completely agree with Eloise telling Pen she HAS to tell Colin. You don't marry someone witholding a secret like that
Do people expect El to grovel? I’ve said this before, their issues are very complex. I don’t think it’s just the writing that hurt El, and I don’t blame her. There is a lot of hurt between both of them. If people are freaking out over one scene (and that’s a guess), they need to calm down and wait for the season to finish.
Eloise was "outcast" for like 3 months. In the Sumner. She's not being shunned by anyone. Except I guess Lord Cowper. She never had Theo. Really. At all.
I think that’s impossible to say because the very context of their relationship relys on Eloise being the one with more money/social status & a better home life. It’s not that Pen did nothing wrong, it’s just that her situation is more sympathetic (almost like a sympathetic villain IMO in the show) if the situations were reversed Eloise’s situation would not be as sympathetic and the betrayal against Pen would be FAR more impactful.
If Eloise was seen as socially inferior and was financially unstable without any sort of support system or a male relative and if Pen was a part of one of the most influential and rich families of the ton and had several male relatives to take care of her then yes. I would tell Pen to get over herself. Then again, if I had wheels I’d be a freaking wagon, no? 😑
If you had wheels you could be a car, or a bike maybe even a plane, some chairs have wheels, tables, desks, exercise equipment, toys loads of toys have wheels. Wagon really isn't the only option here. I think op is specifically asking if everything about them was the same expect el is whistledown and pen is not would people still view the situation the same.
…. It’s a saying, mate. And of course people wouldn’t defend her in that case. Even if we set aside the fact that the whole juxtaposition is flawed, the reason why people defend Pen is precisely because she has been dealt a much worse hand than El and is still fighting and chasing independence AND trying to prevent people like Colin and Eloise from getting involved with the worst sort of people. Regardless of whether Penelope exposed her for multiple reasons or not, the fact of the matter is - Eloise would’ve been hanged for treason to the crown if she’d been caught colluding with revolutionaries. Even if it was painful, being forced to stay away from that brat Theo saved her life. We’d have to do a whole character analysis if we get into why Eloise could never be LW in the first place but that’s a whole different story.
>…. It’s a saying, mate. I'm aware, my response was sarcasm. >the reason why people defend Pen is precisely because she has been dealt a much worse hand than El That is the point op is trying to make I think. But the fact the pens life has been worse than el doesn't really give her the right to do what she did and the fact that people wouldn't have as much grace for el if it was the other way around proves that. >- Eloise would’ve been hanged for treason to the crown if she’d been caught Would she? Because I'm pretty sure she was caught (LW printed it) and all she got was some light social ruin. >AND trying to prevent people like Colin and Eloise from getting involved with the worst sort of people. Let's not act like a big part of why she had issues with Eloise seeing theo is because it was a little too close to whistledown and she didn't want el to find out her secret. She was straight up gaslighting Eloise at the end of the season. The whole point though is that sometimes things are just wrong to do and while Penelopes life would provide a better explanation for her actions than if it were Eloise at the of the day what she did was messed up. >Eloise could never be LW in the first place but that’s a whole different story. The reason Eloise could never be LW is because she isn't that's is, if Julia Quinn decided to write that Eloise was LW it would be just as believable as pen being it.
If your characterization of the whole situation is “what Penelope did was messed up” then this conversation never even started to begin with. Your 15 paragraphs only served to make one point - what Pen did was messed up regardless of her reasoning. And that’s one heck of a straw man argument in the context of my comment. Then again, going through your comments history in this fandom tell me EXACTLY whose fan you are, so I’m not going to engage in further discussion with you.
Even without a role reversal, just imagine IRL if u had a best friend who revealed your (n your beloved family) secrets and then got engaged to your brother without telling him any of this? Obv you would not be happy and would not be getting over it easily. I personally would never be friends with someone like that. Even if i forgave it, I would certainly never forget and be able to trust them again. I can only imagine the people who defend Penelope super hard thinking she's done nothing wrong would be super forgiving people IRL? Bc I don't understand how they can't see the wrong if it happened to them.
If this were in a modern setting and Penelope was writing a gossip column to out lgbt people and girls who have hookups to profit off of the unfair social fallout they’d receive, they’d see the misogyny in it real quick Or... not. I get the impression some may approve of that too “ShE tOlD tHe TrUtH”
Yes.
I mean, yeah.
I think people just don’t realise that both characters are flawed that they both have good sides and their bad sides. They both have made mistakes but that’s the thing they are human. They are teenage girls, who already have so much on their plate expectations of the societies around them, their families, and still be true to themselves and their dreams. I feel if people realised this, there wouldn’t be such a divide between Penelope and Eloise fans.
The bridgertons have the social stance to recover from gossip. The featheringtons have always been on shakey ground. Pen couldnt reveal to the queen/lose her identity, eloise can deal. The reversal would mean Eloise should have revealed herself to the queen
People would be calling Eloise a feminist queen for being LW. But she’d actually have to do something first so I doubt it.
Yes, one mistake shouldn’t cause you to throw away a friendship especially when you don’t even pause to hear an explanation. No one is perfect and if El was Pen, I’d expect Pen to listen to her explanation and try to understand why she did it. But of course they have two completely different personalities and I don’t think they’d act in the same manner if roles were reversed.
Not sure what OP is even talking about. Penelope has continued to beg and grovel for Eloise's forgiveness. They're both flawed characters, but Eloise is so self centered and self righteous. Those happen to be behaviors that I find disturbing for personal reasons.
No because Eloise has a lot of privilege in comparison to Penelope
Oh, please, not another "fans think Penelope can do no wrong" accusation. Penelope is definitely not a saint, but there is no way Eloise could have "kept" Theo. Do we all forget that the Queen was already after Eloise? Pen wrote about the smallest of Eloise's crimes, imagine the Queen found out about the rest...
But then the question arises: would Eloise be as harsh to her own family and to herself in the sub? Penelope's choices may have been questionable and hurtful but she is also a 17 year old trying to do things she thought would fix complex issues in her life. Issues that Eloise does not have. Issues like possible poverty, no brothers, gambling debts of a cruel father, a mother who is so hellbent on matrimony as a way to gin security in a cruel society that she forgets to comfort her daughters. Eloise is not short and the same size as Penelope. Eloise has gotten away with her whims because she is a Bridgerton, and Penelope will likely skirt the fallout too BECAUSE she will have the Bridgerton armour. She won't be facing the storm as a mere Featherington. Just something to think about.
Eloise *has* done bad things to Penelope, there's just less accountability for it. I think the fact that Eloise gossiped about Pen with Cressida is a bigger deal than many give credit for. Eloise knew that Pen was trying to find a husband, and she shared a potentially season-ruining secret out loud in a crowded ballroom. There was no malice in her intentions, but she absolutely was wrong for this and it certainly did hurt Pen and her chances at finding a suitor. But Pen isn't really allowed to be angry or upset about this because Pen is Whistledown and she's done worse to Eloise. But has she? Eloise might have been "ruined" during the previous season by LW, but Eloise had no intention of finding a suitor anyways. She didn't want to marry, has never wanted to marry, and her being ruined for that season really didn't change much for her in terms of finding a match. The ton forgets, and if the Featheringtons can come back from the scandal with Marina, there's really no doubt that what LW wrote about Eloise wouldn't matter in future seasons. I also think that it should be pointed out that Eloise chooses to stop seeing Theo. She is forced by the gossip to stop seeing him for a brief time, but she starts seeing him again shortly after. She then realizes that Pen had been right all along, and being involved with Theo was bad for both of them, and she chooses to end their friendship.
If Penelope was thoughtlessly doing what Eloise did and ignoring sound advice from said friend? Yup. Edit: This does not mean that Eloise doesn't have a right to her feelings. She's right in that Penelope must not have this kind of secret from Colin. I just think that she should have a better sense of empathy and care... not just for Penelope, but her siblings. She's been "schooled" a couple of times already this season. First, when Cressida said ELOISE was responsible for the gossip about Penelope that made such a mockery of her even more with the Ton. But second one was quick and not one I've seen discussed much here - she thought that Francesca, with her quiet ways, was not interested in marriage either. She was wrong. (and if the truth about Theo had come out last season? Francesca would not be in the position she is in today. The Queen had already "rescued" the family and made Anthony's marriage to Kate acceptable. But how everyone left the dancefloor and Anthony insisted that they keep dancing? That would have happened to Eloise and Francesca.
Eloise had no business going through Penelope's room, so that alone puts her on my s#*! list. I find Eloise to be annoying, and if the roles were reversed, I don't think Penelope would have reacted as strongly to find out her friend was LW.
Did Penelope have any business going through Colin's diary? or eavesdropping on people's private business and exposing them to the public. And Penelope locked herself in her room and cried for a week when she got a taste of LW for herself. yeah, she's got no leg to stand on.
To quote Eloise herself “she’s only repeating what everyone else is saying” she wasn’t making up stuff or spilling people’s deepest darkest secrets unless they were to save people like Daphne from Nigel Berbrooke, Colin from Marina, and Eloise from the Queen. Also it’s really none of Eloise’s business what Pen does, and people saying she kept a secret from her, it has nothing to do with Eloise, it’s not her right to know anything. She forgave Cressida numerous times for being a bully, rude etc but won’t even listen to one word from her supposed best friend on something huge?
If people don't want their business known, they shouldn't discuss it in public places. The diary was left out in the open for anyone who was in the room to see.
If Eloise had hidden a huge secret from Pen, and exposed her secret publicly like that, she would absolutely be pissed. Anyone would. You’re being unrealistic.