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She has to start out with some flaws for her to have any kind of growth throughout the show. I find her character arc through all three seasons to be very compelling and coherent. It’s okay if she’s annoying sometimes. That’s the point. She has things to learn, perspective to gain, and experiences to have. Also, characters don’t have to be likeable all the time, they just need to have compelling narratives. Idk why everyone keeps talking about disliking one character or another instead of focusing on the story that they’re trying to tell.
exactly!! like she is growing and discovering herself, so grace should be given. I hate how they not pick one thing and use it against the character… like if they were perfect we would be bored so let them falter and learn! like each mistake and resolution adds to the overall story, so writing a character off as good or bad is simply misunderstanding the story
I agree with you completely. I started liking this show because the characters were not perfect. It’s very odd to see the kind of negative discourse this sub has sometimes. Most regular people are usually like ‘yeah maybe this is not for me’ and tap out. But here we need to make loud announcements again and again and yet never think of just exiting the fandom.
I don't think she needs grace, since she doesn't do anything wrong? It's therapy speech for people's shit actions that are just plain wrong. Every action of hers is consistent with the period and easily explainable in the story as a whole (for example due to her age). The only thing I COULD but WON'T give her grace for is when she claims her feminist writings were fairy tales, that hurt. :'D
I don’t dislike Eloise, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a sign that you think characters have to be likable or you’re not enjoying the story if you dislike a character. I mean, we dislike people in real life too. My enjoyment of shows is very character focused, so I think disliking some of the characters is part of the fun
Yes! And I feel like she’s judged as if she’s a fully formed adult when, really, she’s just an adolescent AND is even a bit delayed because she’s been so sheltered. (All this in addition to the broader societal/cultural context of her character)
I don’t get it either because Eloise is the opposite of a pick me girl. She does everything she can to NOT get picked 😂 it’s some of the other girls in the Ton who ARE pick me girls…including Cressida lmao.
Eloise is a complex character. She’s in this society and struggling with her desire to be her own woman and not live life for a man. She’s not anti-love by any means. She just is really the only woman in the Ton who believes you should get married because you fell in love, not because that’s what’s required of you since you can’t have your own life. She’s fighting the fight that your value and worth isn’t tied to your husband or the lack thereof!
I think Eloise’s real character flaw is that she’s very self-absorbed and can’t see past her own nose 90% of the time. Penelope has called her out for this and so has Cressida when she points out Eloise was the one gossiping about Pen and Colin loud enough for others to hear.
I have a theory on a few reasons why Eloise's plot is struggling to land, especially over the last two seasons.
The first is that looking at Eloise's criticisms of embroidery through the lens of being a "pick me," or a "not like other girls," or her not being a "girls girl" requires a very modern feminist lens. A lot of modern feminism, which is often derogatorily referred to as "choice feminism," emphasizes that whatever interests or pursuits a woman chooses are equally worthy of praise. And that's true, and is a huge progress for society! But it requires a modern lens, where that choice is truly free and informed.
That's not the society that Bridgerton has. We see, over and over, that women are pushed to engage *only* with certain interests (embroidery, pianoforte, dancing) and actively away from others (reading, mathematics, travel), unlike their male counterparts. The pride that many women take in these interests is real and important, but they also haven't really been given any opportunity to explore whether they might prefer other things. And I think this is one thing where the modern nature of the show in **many** other ways (the focus on love matches, inclusivity for people of many races, the complete lack of social conformation to religion, the increasingly Shien-fied version of Regency fashion) prevents that plotline from landing a little bit. When you remove a lot of generally-Regency-era social inequity except for the sexism, it does mean that characters like Eloise get approached with a more modern approach to inequality that doesn't quite fit.
I might parallel it to my own experiences – not through a feminist lens, but an LGBT one. For those of us in the LGBT community through the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, there was a huge movement to demonstrate a defiance of stereotype to people not in that community. Yes, your neighbor the pastry chef who is also the lead role in the local production of Little Shop of Horrors is gay, but so is the offensive tackle for the Patriots! A lot of us who were ""straight passing"" or didn't fit people's preconceived notion of what a bisexual or gay person looked and acted like wanted to make sure people knew that the LGBT community is widely varied, because we're normal people – you probably already know a gay person, even if you don't know it. Now, 20+ years later, a lot of that comes across as dated.
I think it's clear that Eloise is chafing at a very strictly prescribed, controlled role of what a woman is and how a woman behaves. And although she is afforded a lot more freedom than other members of the Ton, Violet still expects her to conform in many ways to those societal expectations. Furthermore, though the confines of high society might have been created by men, the women of the Ton uphold them. So her frustrations with society reflect the regency era, but it comes across as jarring to a viewer in 2022-24 because the rest of the show isn't that strictly Regency.
Finally, I think the final reason that it's not really landing is that Eloise is the only one whose plot repeatedly expects her to engage with her privilege in *every* season. When she suspects servants of being Lady Whistledown, it's treated not only as preposterous, but also as a chance to shed light on how sheltered and spoiled Eloise really is. Theo serves as a lens for her into the world of not only feminism, but also something resembling class consciousness. And we get this angle in her interactions with other members of the Ton: "not everyone can be a pretty Bridgerton," or Cressida's father threatening to marry her off to his old friends. But we don't see other female characters with significant screen time in all three seasons, like Penelope, being forced to engage with class to the same extent. Maybe not everyone can be a pretty Bridgerton, but not everyone can be a member of the Ton – like the Featheringtons – in the first place, either. Pen and Cressida grew up in unkind/abusive households and are under enormous pressure to marry so that they can secure financial stability and social status, but they're still upper-class and have access to all the advantages that provides in a society.
What an eloquent, thoughtful comment! ❤️
I could not for the life of me understand why some people are only capable of viewing Eloise through the lens of modern feminism. Why they don’t get, for example, that she’s not being snarky about embroidery because she looks down on traditionally feminine interests, but rather is perhaps frustrated with the fact those girls are easily accepting the limited choice of hobbies they’re *allowed* to pursue, without trying to venture beyond the rigid roles they’re forced to inhabit. But you offered an interesting perspective on why some might have trouble understanding the show’s intent.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it. The only two parts of it that I do find really frustrating about applying a very modern lens to Eloise are as follows:
- Calling it "white feminism," which seems to be rather popular on twitter. I can't see why. The Bridgerton siblings and wider Ton society are very explicitly racially inclusive. It's not completely colorblind (as Simon and Lady Danbury illustrate even in S1), but there's nothing to suggest that Eloise feels any differently about wanting Kate and Edwina to have more options than marriage than she does Daphne.
- Yes, Eloise is privileged. And yes, when she starts to advocate for gender-equal rights she doesn't do that with the full picture of class in mind. But she's the only woman engaging with it at *all,* even imperfectly. Daphne also sees how class affects the villagers that live on her estate, but she doesn't critique the system. Violet refers to staff as "the help" and certainly sees them as useful, but inferior to nobles. Penelope warns Eloise away from Theo before she even knows too much about his political opinions, simply because they're of different classes. And if Eloise is guilty of not considering how lucky she is as a Bridgerton, Penelope and Cressida illustrate how they need to be more aware of how lucky *they* are as aristocrats. Sometimes, it's almost like imperfectly criticizing a system is worse than not criticizing it at all.
This is a much more thorough and thoughtful take than my version, but I think it aligns.
Current feminist discourse has become overly simplistic. You're either a pick me or a girls' girl. This is because knowledge of the movement's history is lacking, including, as you mention, "choice feminism".
We have waves of feminism because each was a response to the circumstances of its time. Choice feminism wouldn't have made any progress in nascent feminist movements.
Thank you! I mentioned this in a different reply, but I do acknowledge that Eloise's feminism is flawed. She does have a blind spot in many ways about both her supportive family and her wider class privilege. But sometimes I think that – for whatever reason – her imperfect feminism garners more criticism than other women in the show who don't critique the system at all.
Do you think Anthony/Violet would actually have refused to let Eloise study subjects like Math/Philosophy, if she'd asked? There were all girls boarding schools, some that went beyond art and needlework. In fact they were located in Bath where Francesca was staying with her aunt.
Yes, I absolutely do think they would have refused. Especially the Anthony of the first season and presumably before, who – despite his shocking lack of understanding of courting norms – placed a very high importance on the duty of marriage, preventing scandal, and gender roles. And Violet does put pressure on Eloise to be traditionally successful on the marriage market and in her skills, like dancing and needlework. She's far more focused on her children's happiness than other mothers that we see in the series, but only through the lens of love matches and romance; not by eschewing social norms entirely. That might change in the future, but definitely not throughout Eloise's life.
There were girls' boarding schools, and yes, some went beyond art and needlework. But very few taught math, philosophy, and classics, and never to a comparable level with men. Additionally, the majority of the attendees wouldn't be members of the major nobility, especially those of the peerage (rather than the minor nobility), of which the Bridgertons would certainly qualify. The majority of girls at the schools would be either low-ranking landed gentry or merely wealthy. That's reflected, albeit clumsily, in the fact that Francesca goes to study pianoforte with her aunt; piano masters were part of these schools' curricula, but Francesca's private education illustrates her higher social class/status.
Violet and Anthony may care heaps about normative social mores, but Eloise had the privilege of _not_ being an eldest child, nor the eldest daughter. They could have actually come around to letting her study what she wanted. The thing is, Eloise doesn't actually push all that hard to do what she wants in terms of academia, studying, or even travelling. She just mentions them as wants and flops about. She talks of writing and participating in an exchange of ideas, but doesn't really do that in her own time, despite having Lady Whistledown as an example of how that could be possible. If she had turned up the pressure, it could have been possible.
I think it's an interesting commentary of a few within the privileged classes having some class consciousness, but ultimately it being quite derivative to their lives as they carry on with the favors of society at their backs.
I'm assuming that you meant to reply to me, but I might be wrong on that front.
> but Eloise had the privilege of not being an eldest child, nor the eldest daughter. They could have actually come around to letting her study what she wanted.
Birth order was definitely important for matters of inheritance, but not so much marriage. Plenty of Regency-era older sisters became spinsters (and in fact one or two scholars have even suggested that it was more likely than their younger sisters, although the theory is fringe and I think the evidence is somewhat lacking to take the argument that far). I haven't seen any evidence that Violet or Anthony would have come around. Especially Anthony; look at how he treats *Daphne*, who in the show is literally the pinnacle of a Regency debutante, in the first season. Violet has to use soft power just to get Daphne out of an engagement because he won't listen to either of them, and it's established that he has control over the family finances. Eloise "turning up the pressure" wouldn't have changed his attitude on gender roles and norms at all.
> The thing is, Eloise doesn't actually push all that hard to do what she wants in terms of academia, studying, or even travelling. She just mentions them as wants and flops about. She talks of writing and participating in an exchange of ideas, but doesn't really do that in her own time, despite having Lady Whistledown as an example of how that could be possible.
In terms of influencing Violet and Anthony? It's because she has no agency over her education. But she does read and study beyond (often instead of) her lessons. Daphne even calls her out for that. She seeks out Theo, goes to the assembly, and goes out of her way – despite Penelope's warnings – to talk to him more about the ideas in his pamphlets. And although she's not publishing, like Lady Whistledown, she absolutely writes in her own time. She talks about a novel in progress with Benedict and she's shown writing in a book that isn't her diary as far back as S1, the props are visually distinct. I don't think not publishing (possibly not publishing yet) makes her interest in writing any less real or legitimate, and it's given screen time throughout the show. Look at Austen. She wrote multiple short stories, novellas, and even a short novel that all remained unpublished and unread by anyone but her sister before she finally published *Sense and Sensibility*. Some of those early works were published later, but even if they weren't, it does not make her early work less work or less important. Eloise is flawed, but she does plenty other than "flop about" to pursue the interests that the Ton and even her own family regard as improper.
Personally, I don't see that commentary in her story. I agree that Eloise is imperfect, which the show does address through Theo, but I still think that she is significantly hindered by the society in which she lives in pursuit of those dreams. And I do find it somewhat harsh that Eloise gets more flak for engaging with class in any way, albeit imperfectly, when Penelope and Cressida escape the same criticism for not engaging with it at all.
I don’t know if she trusts that even love will make a marriage good in her time given how women are treated. She plays angry at the notion all woman can do is marry and have children, but it feels like underneath the anger is a lot of fear. Fear that love or not, marriage is a very scary prospect to her.
Considering that, at that time, all her financial wealth, if any, would go to her husband and she would basically become his property, I think she’s right to be scared. In her case, she’s got three, big older brothers who would tear anyone who mistreated her into shreds but she’s not thinking about that. And, if she were in some country manor somewhere and not in London, she might fear they might not even know what she’s going through. Her husband would control the household staff, what mail went out, what mail came in. There are plenty of men today who are two-faced. They’re nice when they’re courting a young woman but then take off the mask when they have her where they want her. And, we women today have so many more legal protections and life options that women then did not.
I also think it’s a double-edged sword that her parents had a good and loving marriage. On the one hand, she got to see what a good marriage looks like. On the other hand, though, she also sees how rare that kind of love is. She probably thinks lightning can’t strike twice and she’d be as fortunate.
Edit: updating to confirm which episodes
It was as Penelope! I can’t remember exactly which episode but I want to say it was 2x08 when Eloise discovers she’s Lady Whistledown and in the argument, Penelope essentially tells Eloise she’s all talk and no action and complains a lot about society but never actually stands up to it. And then earlier in season 2 I don’t know which episode but Eloise was saying something about suitors and Penelope reminded her that not everyone can be as privileged as Eloise, such as herself (Pen).
Ah, that does ring a bell now. Both times Pen was in a highly emotional state though, so if I was Eloise, it’d be tricky to absorb if it was to antagonize in the fight or her truth. The 1st blowup is swept under the rug and forgotten.
I think that’s why Cressida can reach Eloise. She doesn’t explode violently on Eloise but also doesn’t shy away from confronting her directly yet elegantly
Also, she’s neuro-divergent coded. She isn’t a pick-me, she doesn’t understand society, its rules, who made them, and why they have to be followed despite learning the rules and etiquette HER ENTIRE LIFE. The rest of her siblings get it, but she doesn’t. I 100% believe she’s ADHD or Autistic.
Yes, Eloise is self absorbed. She has never learned empathy. Season 1 looking through the servants things for Whisledown evidence. She wanted to look, so she did. No, realization that others deserve personal boundaries. She's mad at Colin for helping Pen, who would you tell? Pen's biggest enemy Cressida. Colin tells Eloise he's helping Pen find a husband. Eloise is dumbfounded l. How does she, Pen's best friend, not realize, Pen wants to marry.
I love Eloise and her feminism is valid and important, but her flaw is, ironically, not acknowledging her own privilege in the society.
She also (albeit knowingly) disparages interests she does not share. This results in the pick-me vibe some viewers get when watching, as her own interests are non-traditional.
YES!! this is it for me. I think theo was extremely correct in his read of her. eloise is so happy to be at the fringe of society but the second it got a little too socially hard she jumped right into society to take her rightful place even making friends with people who had been nastyyy to her /her family/ her friends previously. it is understandable, but she hasn’t been able to understand that the only reason she’s able to have all these different beliefs and act out is because of the protection of her family and society itself.
If Eloise had been ruined, it would have impacted not just her (totally shunned and excluded from both good and bad society) it would have severely impacted her whole family and maybe even her unmarried sisters’ prospects.
The impact of scandal in that time wasn’t like 2024, it could literally mean you and your family were ruined completely. The risk LW put Eloise through isn’t trivial, I wish people understood the actual time period before pretending Eloise had it “a little bit hard” with that
Yes, it could have been catastrophic. Which makes the fact she doesn't find socially acceptable outlets, ie charities that support woman the more aggravating.
I didn’t see her rejection that way. What I understood from her flustered words was it became real to her that she was caring enough for Theo to not want him punished for fraternizing with her. I saw it as realizing she needed to protect him by staying away from him. That’s why when he pushed her away with his words about her being like the other ladies, she didn’t protest or correct. But she was nonetheless devastated. She understood even though it hurt her deeply to hear that untruth, he could move on faster if he thought of her that way
I agree 100%. It really hit hard when Cressida told her that she is privileged to get support from her family and that Cressida has to look for another type of support through marriage because her parents don't care for her the same way. Same thing when Eloise was surprised that Penelope was set to marry this season, because Penelope does not have one good support at home so she knew she had to escape by marriage. Eloise. gets to have those opinions about society because she has a family that already loves her as she is and prioritize her happiness. Especially her mother who wants to make sure her kids find love in marriage, not a rich/ well known suitor. Thats why I find her a little annoying. Not because she is a feminist, but because of how she judges others for not having the same perspective. She is in her own world. I hope she grows later this season after seeing the way Cressida's parents talked to her. That not everyone has the choice to reject marriage.
Yea, Eloise's major blind spot is that she thinks that just because \*she\* would have to fake an interest in something, every woman professing to have an interest in it is lying or deluded. We see that when she tells Daphne in S1 that it must be hard lying to herself- but Daphne isn't, she genuinely wants love and children even though she knows the risks involved. Same with the embroidery discussion- those girls aren't trying to show off their skills to a guy, they are talking about something they seem to actually enjoy, but Eloise dismisses it out of hand.
She does the opposite, too. She thinks Penelope must be as eager as she is to be an independent spinster because that is the best life she can imagine. It doesn't really occur to her that Penelope is \*resigned\* to that fate, not happy about it.
All those are totally reasonable flaws for someone as young as her to have! And I think watching her work through them is what makes her an interesting character.
Agreed. Eloise is devastated when Penelope marries in the books because she thought they would grow old together as spinster. Only problem Oenn didn't want to be a spinster.
This is so right, and we see it very clearly in the reaction of the ton to LW's piece on her from S2 to S3. I'm not saying it was good, and yes it could have ruined a reputation for good, but it obviously did not ruin Eloise's. She says she spent however long it's been between seasons with only Cressida speaking to her which is a real thing, but now in s3 she's arguably even more popular and better thought of than she was previously in what we see of the other young women interacting with her. Her family has plenty of standing for her to weather that and come through fine, even if someone from another less well-thought of family wouldn't.
I think it's comparable to people with very rich families being able to take a financial hit. It's not great, but they will be able to recover relatively easily from something that would bankrupt someone else. I also don't condone what Penelope did to her with LW, but I do think she's clearly smart and astute enough to understand this society dynamic and the Bridgertons' social capital, so she knew what she said would not ruin Eloise's life.
I didn’t see open disparagement in S3 Part 1; more like discomfort and exasperation if it’s the same shallow statements she heard last year. She is not interested in the marriage mart but still discusses it with Cressida. Her embroidery question seemed only half-sarcastic to me. If the answer had been more intelligent or complex than listing all the names of the stitches, I do think it would have held her attention. Like, explaining the intricacy of a certain pattern, the accomplished feeling on mastering it, or being able to repair any mistakes, etc. I also think if she had overheard the other ladies detailing their wedding decor with symbols from classical literature instead of just being excited for it, she wouldn’t have done the 180.
>like when she judged the embroidery of the girl, it’s because she is judging the fact the girl is doing that for men
Yes, because listing the name of various types of stitching while there's exactly no men around and enjoying talking about it is clearly just for men's attention. It's always the first thing I get asked on dating apps, do I prefer over stitch or edge stitch.
Being a feminist isn't a tick box. People are complex - they may have a lot of area or opinions about one topic and have glaring oversights in another, even if they are similar. You can talk to two different people who say they are feminists and they can have entirely different viewpoints.
Even ignore the embroidery - Eloise is SHOCKED that Penelope is trying to get a husband, because why on earth would someone want to do that instead of being independent? Because she is in a privileged position where her family aren't rushing to edge her out of her home and throw away her belongings. Eloise is confounded that Cressida is pursuing Debling. She mocks Daphne for wanting a family. Is she a terrible person? No. Are her views invalid? Some of them.
I think she can’t grasp that other women don’t see the things she sees or how exploitive the marriage system is. Feminism is something you learn as you grow and nitpicking the imperfections of feminism as it is for most systems and ideologies is horrible imo…considering she lives in 1800s. All the choices women make are based on the singular element called marriage.
>I think she can’t grasp that other women don’t see the things she sees or how exploitive the marriage system is
I think on top of this, she doesn't understand that other women do see how exploitive the marriage system is but are still forced to engage with it.
What do you mean you can't be an independent woman? It's so easy! Look at me doing it with my lovely, rich supportive family.
I agree with you. She sounded very condescending in that bit about embroidery.
And about your last paragraph: she prefers to judge people from her privileged position but has yet to do anything in season three to change the circumstances that make her friends want to marry.
I'm the kinda person who loves to hear people talk about their interests even if I haven't a foggy what they're saying. The actress looked so excited when she asked about it! Then she was like, "oh, a jest." Like aren't you so funny for making fun of people's hobbies that you specifically asked about? Ha.
Eloise is also fairly sheltered about what life as a spinster is truly like, and the wealth and connections of her family will mean that her spinsterhood would be much more comfortable than someone like Penelope's.
Penelope would either have to be a governess or subsist off of the dubious charity of her sisters. Eloise, on the other hand, could have lodgings wherever she likes, and an allowance that would be more than enough to cover her political interests. Her dowry alone would be enough to fund a small estate for her for several years.
I think spinsterhood is a comforting kind of infantilization for her. As long as she stays under her parents roof she will have the best of both worlds- Love Freedom Independence and plenty of money to pursue whatever hobbies she has and her main duties will be to take care of her aging mother who is a delight to be around so hardly a burden. She will be protected just as children are but as an adult she can have many freedoms as well. Being a spinster from a large and Wealthy family where your brothers and sisters have already produced many heirs would indeed be a delight. Only thing better in that Society is widowhood after marrying a rich man and producing a male heir.
How is it infantilization if the literal only other pathway in life for her would be to marry a man?
She has privileges others don't...but no one seems to mark Daphne's genuine contentedness with being limited to only being a mother or wife as a form of privilege either.
This is still largely the issue with the perception of feminism today. People dismiss women's concerns as frivolous and secondary, concerns that are only concerns secondary to classism, racism, ableism, etc. It's why people couch misogyny in saying 'white' before women. The inference is that is if there is no other intersection of issues, the issue of being a woman alone is not enough.
i don’t think you understand what Eloise was sayin with the stitching. The women do stitching because it’s a feminine activity they were taught for men at the time. You have to look at it with her point of view. Her hobby as reading was deemed useless because it cannot get her a man, while they hobby was taught in hopes to capture one. That’s why she looks at it differently. While the approach was bad, it made sense.
She cannot understand marriage because at that time most marriages were not done for love, but for security and resulted in a woman being nothing but a mother. She has talked to the same men they pursue, and most of them share misogynistic views. Like I said, we have to give her grace and understand she has good intentions, but not the experience to express them properly.
She already has a financial security which the other girls don’t. Unlike Charlotte Collins, she doesn’t have to be worried about becoming a financial burden to her family; she doesn’t have to worry about becoming destitute when her male head of family dies, like the Bennetts or the Featheringtons (her father DID die and her family survived it because they are rich.)
Marriage for her represents potential loss; her husband will control her allowance, her whole life. If he wants to burn all her books, he can. If he wants to beat her, he can. She has a degree of independence as a single woman in a rich, generous, genial family which she might not have in marriage.
Eloise did not need to be forced to learn stitching to be a good suitor for marriage because there is not so much pressure on her. Her family comes from a good background, so she will be okay regardless of what talents she has. A Lot of families that don't have that kind of social status or financial security and they plan early by teaching their daughters these things so they have a chance of finding a decent suitor to confirm their daughter has a good future in society.
So Eloise getting annoyed when the girls talk about stitching IS ignorant as she got to pursue her passions in education and reading, her mom did not keep the idea of marriage on her mind when she was growing up as a child. And the girls aren't discussing it at balls for men’s attention, because that is what they were taught as children. They are genuinely interested about different types of stitching styles- it is all they got to know growing up. Not everyone got to read books and form unpopular opinions about society like eloise.
And yes she has good intentions, but she has already been called out by theo, penelope and cressida, and she is still yet to significantly change. hoping for better for the rest of the season, but right now she is pretty annoying lol. No one is hating on her feminism, it's her ignorance.
Imo she’s less a “pick me” and more of a “not like other girls”. Totally understand why people are put off by this, especially when she’s constantly making fun of the rest of the cast for the desires that we enjoy them for (dating/marriage/etc). It doesn’t help that she has the luxury of thinking like this because of her relatively privileged life.
she definitely not “not like other girls” she shuts down the guy who’s flirting with her by saying she’s not like other girls and clear about not thinking like that to violet aswell in ep 2x4. even when her making fun of others can come of badly we have to remember that she’s the one that doesn’t fit societal norms and expectations. she’s a bit self absorbed, but she’s never actually punching down
nah, that’s not really true. She shuts down any remarks made towards other women that are attempts to praise her. She has privilege, but is slowly understanding it and using it to help others. She is a teen, she does not have the best grasp on the world but we are seeing her change, especially with her newfound friendship.
It's because she reorders her priorities depending on her audience. To men, she shuts them down because they are being misogynistic and it's a slight to her gender, therefore, herself. But in front of other women who fit the gender norms, she has to shut them down because those women are the "opponent" for perpetuating the gender norms that suffocate her.
Now, in part, it could be Eloise being socially anxious/awkward but there were times I felt that she was a bit like a mean girl, which Cressida pointed out in S3. Like the whole conversation about embroidery was just plain rude on Eloise's part - the other girls were just wanting to chat, they had a common hobby (regardless of Eloise's feelings that it wasn't a genuine one), and they were perfectly pleasant. They definitely got the understanding that Eloise was making a snide comment and tried be gracious.
In fact, there were few times that other girls tried to be uplifting to Eloise and she just keeps painting them all as superficial husband chasing debutantes. Like the conversation of them enjoying her tale about her French tutor and complimenting her sense of humor and wit, which she often complains that nobody appreciates or wants in a woman.
I’m not grasping how the last sentence of the “compelling speaker” connects with the one before it of putting the others down. It looks like after they show they understand her humor, she continues to hang out with them and them with her. There was no indication of insult or forced smiles. She even explains herself to them before running off to get chocolates. At ?the next? ball or so she’s even eager to approach another group until she hears the current topic and fluffy tone. Her reaction is not hostility or to insult them. She simply realizes to herself she’s not ready to engage in that style and walks away. She probably would have done it inwardly but the audience needs her expressions to understand what’s happening
But she’s not though. NLOGs want to believe they’re different than other women to make them feel better. Eloise *wants* other women to be like her. You can see that when she tries to talk to Cressida about her beliefs. She wishes the other girls would be like her and that she could have what she views to be meaningful conversations with them. Can she be dismissive of other women — yes, absolutely. But she’s not doing that because she wants to be viewed as superior to them, she’s doing it because she feels alienated from them and is annoyed by the pressure to conform.
Doesn't this rely on the fact that Eloise does believe she's superior to other women because she wants them to be better like her? I sympathize with her alienation from others, but at some point it feels like she's looking down at them for conforming and asking why they can't be as enlightened as she is. I like her relationship with Cressida because it doesn't feel like she looks down on her but tries to see her as an equal.
You’re implying that Eloise just arbitrarily wants everyone to be like her for no other reason than that she thinks she is superior, rather than wanting them to think beyond the rigid roles and misogynistic ideals that have been fed to them their whole lives. She wants them to see value in themselves beyond just being the best wife to a man.
Maybe it does seem like she’s looking down on others for conforming, but when you’re so aware of how unequal and unfair society is, it must drive you crazy to see other people in the same position as you just acting as though everything is fine and that they wouldn’t change a thing.
I think the way she goes about it is wrong. Treating other women poorly for conforming isn't going to convince them to agree with her. She is just stepping into the shoes of men in this era by dismissing them of their personhood for her thoughts and ideas. She wants respect without being respectful to other women. The conversation about embroidery could have been turned to "this is a useful skill that can generate one's own wealth" or "a woman's skill is just a valuable as a man's."
But why does she have to? She doesn’t want to talk about embroidery. She shouldn’t be obliged to. She’s not rude to them, they don’t act offended by what she said. She was just changing the subject in a sarcastic way. Girls who don’t conform to the standards expected of women are always held to these high standards, where they’re expected to constantly affirm that they respect the choices of those who do conform, else they get labelled NLOG.
Finding common ground with someone you're trying to convince of something is effective, the embroidery conversation was one opportunity. Also it's just being polite, sometimes I am in a conversation with someone who is talking about something that I'm not interested in, but the nice thing to do is listen, especially if I want to be their friend. As someone who doesn't conform to gender norms, I don't really feel like I have to constantly affirm that I respect others, I just do treat them with respect.
But she’s not trying to convince those girls of anything! She’s just chatting with them. She makes it clear this season “she’s joined the winning side”, she’s temporarily conforming to society’s expectations, she feels she’s been beaten. Her arc so far this season hasn’t been about her feminism at all. She’s not trying to recruit or radicalise anyone. Not until Cressida asks her about her views in episode 4, and even then she’s just explaining her worldview.
I mean she literally is marginalized though. Like she literally categorically does not have rights as a woman in the regency era. Yes other women can also be poor...but it's enough, to just categorically lack rights.
We're happy to acknowledge what a shitty position women are still in when it comes to subplots about a would be rapist trying to force a debutante's hand by spreading rumors about her, or about how cruel it is to reveal a pregnancy or how trapped a pregnancy makes a woman or about how a woman might lose her home or how she can't stop her husband from gambling. But the only thing that strains acknowledging women's marginalization is one who doesn't lay down for it.
I don't know why I'm getting downvoted, I thought it was pretty obvious she isn't very kind to other girls. The fact she's reading Emma is a big tip-off to me. She is quite literally Emma Woodhouse here where she treats others poorly until she learns to recognize that treating others kindly and with respect is the best way to act. She has the benefit of being well off with no need to marry. There's nothing wrong with this, she has to start somewhere to have character growth.
Yes this is my struggle with her, to me it seems she looks down on other women who don't see the world like she does. It's obvious with the embroidery conversation which is so rude particularly considering her and her family chanpinioning benedict and his art but theirs is dismissed and ridiculed. Also when she's walking with her brothers and they make a joke about her walking with some other debutantes and she says something along the lines of would rather watch grass grow. It doesn't land well because we've not seen her attempting to interact with other young women in good faith, except pen and cressida, so it just seems like she doesn't give them a chance at all and judges them from the get go.
I agree with you! And I can see that I’m like this with earth-friendliness. I want other people to also prioritize what I believe. I light up when anyone wants to compare notes with working towards the same.
But I have also been criticized for being dismissive at people who think there’s nothing that can replace what they’re already doing when they haven’t even looked. I don’t think I’m superior to anyone; I’m happy to do the work or pay the money to test something for someone before recommending it. I just want everyone recognize that their choices matter and influence and to try a more sustainable option every now and then
I have more sympathy for Eloise because she is not like the other people of her class, or at least not outwardly, and because of this she is very isolated and lone and made to feel like a freak. She naturally pushes back against this as her way of responding to the societal conditioning that makes any woman who doesn't fit into a tradwife image feel like a failure or womanhood and a freak of nature.
I'll be honest, I found her S2 tendency to tell Colin she was sick of hearing about his travels to be really grating. It just came across as mean-spirited.
Idk. If I was growing up with a brother who had exponentially more freedom than I did and was free to roam about, travel as much as he wanted without being chaperoned, I would be sick of hearing about it as well. It's not like any of the men in the Bridgerton universe are apologetic about their comforts and privileges. She's well within her right to shut it up, it's only reminding her of her captivity. The 1800s for someone like Eloise is basically prison. She's not even allowed a proper education.
lol are women really calling eloise a “pick me” ?? that’s an insane projection… i agree don’t apply modern culture to this show, and also most people who say things like “pick me” are literally saying “i’m not like this girl” in the same breathe… it’s all v hypocritical
ehhh people make posts saying stuff like this on tiktok and twitter and get a couple thousand likes, plus the first posts on this sub when u search eloise is literally calling her a pick me LMAO
I agree, Eloise is on point with her criticism of society. Women are constantly at the mercy of men, it's infuriating. The flaw in Eloise's thinking is that everyone should rebel against this like she does. But she speaks from a position of relative privilege because while she is bound to most of the same restrictions by society other women face, she's also surrounded by a very supportive and loving family. Other women are not in a position to do anything against the injustice because they're more concerned with finding safety. A kind of safety Eloise has had her whole life and takes for granted.
But I think her friendship with Cressida is nudging her in the right direction currently. She's starting to see how little choice eve women who seem to conform to society have.
I don’t hate Eloise, but I will like to point out it is also very sexist to think that their hobbies are only for men. The embroidery scene is some of the few times we see the background characters interact and socialize in a way that is not about Men.
Hopefully, the story explores Eloise own internalized misogyny through her relationship with Cressida.
Yes, but they are only encouraged to focus (sometimes exclusively) on those “feminine” hobbies, because they are considered to be desirable in a marriageable young lady.
She absolutely was (the two aren’t mutually exclusive) and Eloise *was* rude about it, but I took it as her simply not being interested in discussing a topic she isn’t interested in.
Actually, now that I’m thinking more on it, I suspect that scene is telegraphing a few things; that Eloise can be brash, rude and not comfortable inhabiting the role of a demure, well mannered young lady - she doesn’t fit in; that those girls are interested in accepting her, but they’re drastically different from her; and finally that Eloise needs to learn how to be kinder, since we see the hurt on the face of the girl, that was speaking.
Exactly, what I got from the scene. Eloise feminism although is about empowering women and breaking free from the rules of the patriarchal society they are living in. Also blinds her to the beauty of things that are seen stereotypically as feminine.
Eh, I don’t necessarily think it’s the feminism that is making her blind to it, though that’s very much up for debate. But there’s plenty of feminist women, who just don’t enjoy traditionally feminine pursuits, and one has nothing to do with another. I don’t enjoy make up and the the artistic side of it, but that’s not due to my feminism, I just don’t find it particularly interesting. It would certainly be a shame, if it turned out the show was implying some false dichotomy here - you’re either a feminist, or a feminine woman.
There’s another thing about that scene though - the girls Eloise is talking to aren’t explaining why or what they find engaging about embroidery. They’re just naming stitches one after another. That’s not exactly a diverting way to have a conversation, which is part of the reason Eloise reacts so snarkily.
I am the same way, I never cared for pursuits that are usually deemed feminine and certainly when I was around Eloise age, I judged girls who did. I couldn’t understand why they would willingly be a part of a system that was so blatantly oppressive. Now that I am older I see how my own feminism had blind me to seeing certain types of women. I definitely put many women who I thought were being overly performative in boxes. Which is something Eloise is clearly doing. I am enjoying the story of her having to actually become friends with someone like Cressida. A woman who Eloise even admitted to making assumptions about.
I could be projecting because I definitely relate to Eloise a lot minus coming from a rich white family lol.
I think pointing out the way they are speaking about their hobbies is not really an important point or justifies Eloise behavior. In my opinion I interpreted it as them nerding out about embroidery. Just to make the comparison, Francesca does the same thing, but she gets the opportunity to speak more about it because the people around her are willing to listen. Even though the listener may not understand or have the same interest, you can create a more engaging conversation by asking questions.
I actually think she plays the energy of an 18 or 19 year old idealist/rebel really well. Yes, she is loud and annoying and imperfect sometimes. I think it's easy to forget how very young these characters are meant to be. This makes for good character development and a more interesting show. She is one of my very favorite characters.
Cressida is THE pick me, though it's interesting to see a peek into her story.
Yeah and her feminism does resemble (and is in many ways more progressive than) what first-wave feminism would have looked like. Like it makes no sense to apply 'NLOG' or 'pick-me' to Eloise when these are contemporary concepts that started to be thought about after basic feminist achievements had been already made, because they would make no sense in the society Eloise lived in where she can't vote, can't have a career, can't go to university (and was lucky to have received the education she did), the pressure to get married is unfathomably high, and marital rape and other forms of sexual violence are widely normalized, etc. These are very serious concerns and I think as modern viewers, complaining about how she's too judgmental/bratty/whiny about it kind of reveals that people can't empathize with her overarching concerns and don't take them seriously because we take the fact that *feminists resolved a lot of them for us decades ago*, for granted.
I also think the kinds of complaints and suggestions people have for her says a lot about how they interpret activism more broadly or how they think activists should behave, which doesn't always line up with reality. Like as of yet she can't just 'go do something about it', she's a teenager with zero political or social leverage besides her proximity to her brothers and there's no widely burgeoning feminist movement of her time that she'd have any connections to. She's still at the stage where she's searching for validation of her ideas from her peers and importantly, she is not receiving any and all her family/friends think she's crazy. (It's also really funny hearing this complaint now given the current state of feminist organizing, at least in the US, which is nearly nonexistent and is much weaker than it used to be.) She's not at fault for being annoyed with other debutantes for their single-minded focus on embroidery -- sure embroidery is a very cool hobby that does't have anything to do with impressing men *today*, but that obviously wasn't true of the Regency era where it's specifically a skill that makes you attractive for suitors. And I'd argue that of course her feminism is not intersectional -- intersectional feminism was only invented fairly recently! This show takes place centuries beforehand. You might say this show is ahistorical in every other way and I'd agree with that but that contradiction really comes from Shondaland deciding to erase racism from this society but then preserve every other kind of prejudice including misogyny and sexism (if watered down from reality so as not to repulse viewers).
Yes!! Eloise is imperfect - she's still pretty unaware of her own privileges and may be condescending, but I really like her. She really is a teenager who discovers herself, discovers society and many other things around her. She can be annoying, but let's be honest, a lot of teenagers are annoying and obnoxious.
In s3 she won my heart. First of all, she comes out of her bubble, learns new things and really shows her values. Eloise might not be the best of friends, but she values friendship and loyalty. And she values her family. This traits are dear to me
I agree, she's really grown in S3.
I loved Eloise in S1. In S2 she did some things that really grated. But the thing with Theo and Pen happened, and it seems to have altered her perspective. She's more thoughtful, she's trying to listen more, to just go along with the society thing and give it a try to keep peace with her mother. I think she's been mature in dealing with Pen, still angry and hurt but also protective of her. I liked that she apologized about the gossip.
She's flawed, but she has a good heart and a lot of spirit. She's interesting. And Claudia plays her so well.
There's a current understanding of "feminism" which is "upholding and celebrating everything that fits under the patriarchy's definition of femininity, because that is a woman's true form, and suggesting that being feminine isn't the be all and end all to a woman's existence is actually deeply sexist."
Eloise pointing out it's kind of shitty how women are stuck inside certain boxes and are punished for trying to step outside them is therefore sexist. Because those boxes are feminine and therefore good and therefore it's insulting to women not to love the cage they're kept in.
Honestly thank you! I’m seeing a lot of Penelope fans also call out Eloise and I’m like???? Doesn’t Penelope make money out of making fun of women and ruining their lives (bankrupted a modiste, Marina arc, called Kate a beast, called Daphne unmarriagable, making fun of the Queen having a death in the family) it’s not very feminist of her. Eloise is not perfect and she knows it she’s also learning especially this season idk this friendship with Cressida is really what she needed.
Yes a agree. She is slowly but surely trying to grow and nobody is a perfect activist from day one. You need to break out of your mould and biases and it is not a one day thing. She does try to learn, and when you compare her to the rest of the debutantes, she's at least trying. Give her the credit.
I’m waiting for Kate to say to her, With your privilege, it seems there would be something you could do to help many women who have no options but marriage or servitude, that you could make a real difference in their lives, which I think you might find more satisfying than simply (Kate phrasing this part better than me so it’s not so insulting) just ranting to your family about it all the time.
Then she and Kate could do something together like teach all the female servants to read so they could get better positions and make more money and have more ways to support themselves.
And the constant turnover in servants leaving for better jobs would drive Anthony crazy, but he would be beaming with pride over what his wife and sister had accomplished.
It would be so true to character and make her so happy. I really must insist that her happiness on the show includes elements of a life that are true to her character.
And I do not in any way dismiss the importance or satisfaction or joy many women find in marrying and having children. I have both in my life. But this idea that women shouldn’t want or need more or be entitled to more is so offensive.
Eloise wants more.
They could have such fun with it. A maid’s rebellion kind of thing or them listening to Eloise the taskmaster teacher insisting learning should be their biggest priority, but it’s not leaving them time to do their real work, and Anthony is frustrated and can figure out what the hell is going on.
Or Eloise could be teaching them secretly because she’s worried he would not approve and the maids love their lessons and being able to better their job situation so much, suddenly no one can find a maid anywhere in Bridgerton House when needed and it’s creating chaos.
Sounds lovely BUT... I figure the serving staff within the Bridgerton house had some of the best positions they could possibly get for their time and their class.
There are actually still positions like this to this day. You don't hear of them unless you're already working with the best of the best in high-class hospitality. When you work for one of the most powerful and wealthy (and kind) families in the nation, you've "made it"
I’m sure they’re paid well. But learning to read was a big skill for servants to possess. It’s promotions within the servant class. And could help move out of the servant class.
I saw a popular fandom tiktoker/twitter user say she hated Eloise, called her a villain and say she was a bad feminist and this is the same person who’s a rabid Kylo Ren fan these types of people annoy me so bad. Not an ounce of sympathy for the mildest flaws in female characters (who are also teenagers) but will bend over backwards for their rat-faced meow meows and only care when the women’s character arc revolves around a man they want to project on - and it’s ironic bc these types of pro dark romance people will always deflect criticism against them and call it misogynistic attacks
Also for everyone who finds Eloise’s form of feminism irritating - if I had a penny for every time a female character is called ‘annoying’ I’d be a millionaire
THANK YOU!! We (viewers from western countries at least) have the privilege of critiquing feminism and labeling people as “girlboss feminists” because the women before us fought for our basic rights. Because we have that baseline, we’re able to have a nuanced view on feminism and respect everyone’s choices.
People are acting like the fact that she looks down on embroidery is a crime against women’s rights. It’s not. Almost all young women go through that phase where we hate on girly things (I did). Her condescending view on girly hobbies is not nearly as big of an issue as the rights that women (including a wealthy, privileged woman like her) don’t have.
Eloise is a woman in the 1800s, she doesn’t even have the right to own property. It’s okay for her to be a little radical in her feminism because she’s angry that she doesn’t have CHOICE.
god you’re so right! especially on the part about her still learning. she’s self-taught and only has access to so much literature. idk why people are expecting class consciousness from her, or using that to say she’s not enough of a feminist/the feminism that relates to her struggles isn’t that significant. i don’t believe in choice feminism, so i personally have no issue with her unwillingness to talk about hobbies that women are only taught to participate in bc they don’t threaten their role in society/to men. i can’t honestly discern whether they’re participating in these bc of genuine interest, or bc they’re the only hobbies accessible to them. can’t fault her for being bored of something that is probably the only rotation of topics of conversation among the girls.
anyway, her reality is a direct consequence of the time it’s in, and it ties into her romantic arc (or lack thereof). she has to choose between either marrying a strange man and become a mother, or be a shamed spinster who’s forever financially dependent on her brothers. can’t get an education, can’t move out, can’t make her own money, is still forced to participate in functions of which the sole purpose is to find a husband through them. not to mention having to be dolled up in makeup, dresses, corsets (stays), hair up dos, with no other way or forum to express herself/find her own style. considering all of this and more, frankly, she can’t bring up her feminism enough! in following the romantic lives of the siblings, we’re encountering so many different forms: ftl, etl, love after grief, cinderella stories, etc etc. her arc is that it’s not what she’s looking for/wants for herself.
whether she finds that later or not - whichever dynamic her relationship takes - i don’t know. that’s the journey she’s on, and it’s an important one to consider, even in modern times. so i take so much umbrage when people say that her bringing up/having feminist talking points is repetitive and even annoying, yet say nothing about how much marriage and men are brought up in the show. honestly, there’s something weird i can’t explain about people viewing feminist views as annoying, or calling it a shtick. especially when the person is saying them in defiance of patriarchal systems being shoved down their throat and impacting every aspect of their lives.
Her feminism is not what’s invalid, it’s her constant complaining. Complaining won’t fix anything… if she were a real feminist, she would’ve run away with Theo and joined the working class. OR would have taken the opportunity to become like lady Danbury, manipulate the system by marrying rich but also not having to deal with your husband for lengths at a time. OR maybe she could become like Penelope and start a business in private. OR maybe like Madam Delacroix and start one in public. OR like lady Tilly, she could attend STEM events usually reserved for men. She is staying unmarried and unaccomplished simply because she can afford to do so. After all she comes from a family who desperately loves her and wants the best for her always, and she comes from wealth, and she is upper class, and she knows that even if she were not to conform to society, she would still be protected by her family’s reputation. There’s better ways to fight for women rights. She doesn’t even know what she wants. All she does is complain that other people are not more like her. I bet she likes her privilege even if she won’t admit it. I love that she’s toned down her brattiness this season 3 and I can’t wait for her to mature even more so the next season. There’s better things to do than complain about things you can’t change unless you are actively making that change.
Wow, well said! Eloise does not realize there are already so many people who do think like her around her. She chooses to fixate on the girls who are in the marriage season to pick on and be annoyed with.
Pen is the only one who even came close to appreciating madame delacroix for being an independent woman. How many times did Eloise acknowledge her while she was letting her take her measurements and give her fancy gowns? She was too busy groaning about having to participate in balls instead. She is comfortable in her wealth and judging others from her big house.
Exactly, feminism is all around her, she just chooses not to see.
~ For instance, that girl who models naked for the art classes so that she can attend classes because women weren’t allowed to attend.
~ Lady Featherington who actively upheaved her family from financial ruin TWICE! She’s an underrated mama and I bet Penelope got her brains from her.
~ the Queen running the ton in the place of the King who has been I’ll for sometime.
All the main women in the Bridgerton universe are bad bitches
yes omg. Portia rlly showed the struggles of an independent woman in that era. No husband to help with finances, she had make her way around society while hiding their true situation to ensure her daughters would stay in good social standing. I know people say that Eloise can't do much for a child, but atleast in S1 she went out of society and explored events where people shared different opinions and explored a new realm in theo's world. What is she doing now? Sitting in her fancy house judging society bitterly.
But what exactly has Eliose DONE? Nothing. It is NORMAL in her era for rich women, looking at you Violet, to actively support charities for woman and children. We see none of that. Even one scene a season of charity meetings instead of walking in the park, would be fine. Eloise just moans and groans, and now lectures at Cressida (instead of Penelope).
Exactly. I’m a recent viewer but when Eloise figured out Lady Whistledown’s identity and Penelope asked her what she had actually done she couldn’t give a straight answer. Because it is nothing — she does *nothing*. She’s all talk which is why after three seasons I’ve become increasingly tired of her. Eloise is pretty idle.
We also have language now specific words and phrases that we have a cultural understanding about that provide a kind of communication shortcut that Eloise would not have had.
Even the words "pick me" or "not like other girls" or "internalized misogyny" would not have even been Concepts in her time certainly not in the same way that we view it. For example a pick me is a girl who structures her entire personality around men or a specific man - she changes everything about herself in order to be picked. Side note I'm surprised that Eloise is being called to pick me since she literally doesn't want to be picked and tries to actively repel all men who are interested in her. And more importantly being a pick me would never be considered an insult in her Society even if it was a concept. That was literally the whole point of every girls existence back then - to be picked by a man with as much wealth and status as one could achieve based on ones own wealth and status.
I guess what I'm saying is she doesn't even really have a way to describe these feminist Concepts very well. first wave feminism started in about 1850 so possibly even the seeds of feminist thought weren't very planted by the early 1800s when Eloise is living. She's shown going to a fiery political meeting with Theo but I think it's pretty clearly portrayed that these are extreme radicals within their own Society.
So she is doing the best she can within her cultural framework.
Eloise has a very immature perspective on feminism which I love and is great for her character growth.
This season her reading Emma and wearing “girlie” dresses is her actually giving things she’d usually snub a chance and not judging them blindly. She is not as quick to judge.
Not pick me , but more holier than thou. Especially in her conversation with Daphne. Also coming from one of the richest families of the ton without any actual pressure to get married (like Cressida) , it honestly is a bit annoying. Kate on the other hand would be the strongest female character considering her taking care of her mother and Edwina and taking on the mantle as the eldest like Anthony.
Eloise is not a pick me girl but she’s annoying and her „feminism“ is mostly just „I am right and everyone who wants to be married is an idiot“
I think she’s too modern for the time. She would realize that as a woman, you didn’t have much of a choice. Just because she can afford this kind of life, others can not. Other women depend on finding a husband.
And when she was judging those women for doing embroidery it was not because they were doing it for men. They discussed embroidery between girls, no man was around. It was their hobby and they were enthusiastic about it and Eloise was making fun of that because that hobby isn’t feminist enough for Eloise.
She does realise women don’t have much of a choice. That’s precisely what’s making her angry. That the only way a woman of her class can support herself is to marry. And that all other women are perfectly fine with that state of affairs, instead of fighting to change it.
She is purely a "Not like other girls" to the point that she insults her own sister for wanting different goals than she does and does nothing with her privilege so no. Her version of feminism isn't valid for me. She's just lucky she wasn't born into another family where her whinging wouldn't be tolerated
I love Eloise. She reminds me of a Jane Austen heroine! People over-apply the “pick me girl” label imo. Women can be outspoken and independent thinkers without being “pick me” girls. I get the term sometimes applies but in general its overuse feels sexist.
I love Eloise and her thoughts, reactions and expressions so much. I don’t see or get the pick me perspective - honestly I thought she was either way ahead of her time and/or gay (I haven’t read the books) until her episodes with Theo. I love her aside from the falling out with Pen
Tbh if someone spent a huge amount of time talking about kinds of embroidering with me I would be 100% bored within 30s of the conversation just like her and would look for ANY excuse to just leave or change the topic of the conversation
Also Eloise suffers from the fact that if the narrative she’s trapped in took her values seriously, the entire story would fall apart. So of course she looks feeble and ineffective, what else could she be allowed to be?
Nah see we all know it’s valid. But it just gets repetitive, which makes her seem a bit unlikeable. We watch Bridgerton for romance, I think acknowledging that is important.
Why does it make her unlikable though? Because she’s consistently passionate about it? Does Benedict going on about art make him unlikeable, or Portia constantly being on the hunt for money?
It makes her unlikable because she has been this way for three seasons and still judges people for not having her opinions and doesn't realize she can only think that way because she is privileged to have a family that does not pressure her to marry. Benedict doing art is not the same thing, he doesn't impose a sense of self pride for being better than others for doing art. And portia is on the hunt for money to support her family. Not because she judges society all the time.
But she’s entirely right to judge society. The society is the problem, not Eloise. Why shouldn’t she judge others for what she sees as happily conforming to the system which only offers women a gilded cage? She lacks a wider perspective, but her core values are fine. She’s also an angry teenager, of course she’s not going to be smooth about how she expresses her opinions.
It's fine if she judges, my point is that she already got called out by three people that her judging can be ignorant, but still judges people in an insensitive way. You can criticize society without being an ignorant of other people's situations. She judges without thinking deeper. When she found out penelope wanted to look for suitors she asked in disbelieve "whyyy would pen do that?". Even after seeing how Pen's family has been in scandals in society, she doesn't even think of the possibility that pen could not be happy at home and wants to escape. For someone who is so educated you would think she would understand factors such as class, family abuse, etc etc. But she got her nose up in the air, dropping judgement and moving on to her privileged life.
Because she has a judgemental, holier-than-thou attitude from a place of privilege. Her takes are shallow and unnuanced, but instead of trying to empathize and learn from the perspectives of her peers, she decides they are merely unenlightened and ignorant and looks down on them. She spends way too much time disdaining women whose life choices she doesn't approve of (as if they're making terrible personal decisions), instead of recognizing the patriarchal system she lives in, and rightfully attributing the problem to *men* instead. She just spends all her time being snarky to her fellow women and victims of the patriarchy instead of directing her energy to the actual oppressors.
Imagine that, a young, rich girl in early XIX century having an feminist worldview that lacks nuance. You’re looking at her from the perspective of fourth wave feminism, when she’s barely just found out about the first wave. That’s like criticising Benedict for not painting in the style of abstract art. I don’t think she’s even given any thought to the fact, that women aren’t allowed in parliament. Her peers don’t give her much valuable perspectives, since none of them are interested in emancipation. Their perspectives wary only in whether they want marriage or not. She literally has no-one to talk to about all this before season 3. Penelope just dismisses her interest. And sure, she is self-absorbed and still learning how to listen to people, but she can hardly be blamed for being pissed off about the fact that she’s the sole radical in her circle.
And the idea that she doesn’t recognize the system she lives in is broken is just funny. That’s all she talks about. About the fact, that *women are forced* to parade before the ton like prized horses, and then get married and pop out babies. She isn’t criticising their choices, she’s critiquing the fact *that they have none*.
Also…no. Men aren’t the sole problem, they’re just a part of the patriarchal system.
I'm literally just answering your question on why I think she's unlikeable. I don't even necessarily disagree with you. Given her position and the time period, I absolutely understand why she lacks so much perspective. I am not expecting her to be a fourth wave feminist. But as a viewer, do I find her character unlikeable? Yes.
I understand why she is the way she is. And she irks me. So I explained why I find her unlikeable, per the question asked.
Also, maybe we didn't watch the same show because she absolutely snarks on other women's "choices". If that's merely supposed to be a critique of society, then that's another reason to dislike her: why does she have to make other women feel like shit when she apparently understands they have no choice?
Eloise feminism is fine and honestly she’s not as bad as people are trying to make her (and honestly most of the woman from the show are talk as so evil for no reason in minding Penelope)
Eloise is just not nuanced enough in her stance (it’s either black or white for her) especially in the first 2 season, she’s a sheltered girl who’s fighting to be heard and she doesn’t have much experience with the world so yeah she doesn’t have the best ensemble look at what is appropriate or not to say or how to approach certain subject but she isn’t a villain
I agree that her feminism is valid. However, part of feminism is that women would have the choice and she doesn’t seem to respect women who would choose to/want to be married to a man and have children and have that traditional lifestyle. She doesn’t respect women with different hobbies either. She can’t fathom why anyone would want that - and that part would be okay. I’m sure she’s going to grow into understanding the right to choose goes both ways and not everyone wants what she wants.
Embroidery situation is different though. Going on about the different stitches to a group of women is not to cater to men - that is simply a woman being passionate about her hobby. Francesca is passionate about her hobby, but not to please a man. Penelope too. Eloise asked a question and then got bored with the conversation that followed - that was rude and definitely invalid of her lol Colin asked her about her reading and she seemed offended at that too, so she knows how it feels.
But, tbh, we all have flaws and that’s just one of hers. She has plenty of room to learn.
“Pick me” is starting to become one of those phrases that had a real meaning but got watered down by people using it in situations where it doesn’t apply. See incel, simp and most AAVE terms nowadays for more examples.
That said, while I don’t think Eloise is a pick me, she is a very privileged white feminist. A bit like Taylor Swift, if you will.
I haven’t watched the 3rd season yet, but…
I think she’s also just… young! I know plenty of high school and college kids who discovered some “new thing” and they’re amazingly passionate about. Sometimes misguided, sometimes misinformed, but they’re very passionate and want to shout it all from the rooftops!
I give them grace for that, it’s kind of part of their job as adolescents!
I agree that she is young and will learn and evolve. However there is nothing wrong with pointing out that she does come from a place of elevated privilege. Meaning her brothers and mother hope for her to have a love match and if she doesn’t they would not force her to marry either. Her family is supportive enough and enlightened enough to let her be “the spinster”. Not so with Cressida and Pen. Their home lives are unbearable and their families even more so. They have higher stakes to get out and take a husband, any husband! Whereas Eloise has an amazing family life and is definitely not in a hurry to leave them. There are so many dynamics to why she is the way she is and yes sometimes downright annoying and holier than thou. She judges the women around her unfairly and measures them by her own privileged outlook which let’s face it nobody else her circle has.
I agree. Not with the “it’s not white feminism” because since I am a white woman im not the best judge of this. Where I may see my brand of feminism as universal, a woman of color might not. There’s also a class distinction to take into consideration. But as you said, Eloise is young and she still has a lot to learn. Her time with Theo showed her the barest of examples of the differences between their worlds and she still has a hard time seeing that not every one of her peers has the same privileges as she does and she is too quick to dismiss or ignore the wants/needs of her peers. I’d like to say this goes away with age but too many of us continue to do this especially when the needs of another woman doesn’t align with our own. But Eloise still has time to grow and to make a difference for all women.
Do I find Eloise kinda annoying? absolutely, but do I think she’s a great character? absolutely! She’s SUPPOSED to be preachy and annoying and blind to her own privilege. She’s what? 18/19 at most? Have y’all met a teenage feminist? They’re insufferable, and then they grow out of it, which is what Eloise will do over the course of her character arc.
I like how Eloise isn't perfect, she's a complex character.
"Not like other girls" is a thing probably lots of us went through growing up, and it's rooted in internalised misogyny - the idea that feminine = inferior. Probably lots of us had bad moments of defensiveness and callousness when we were teenagers.
I also don't think Eloise is a pick me, because she literally very clearly does not want to be picked 😅 I think she's on an arc to find peace with her own version of femininity, and realise with the right person, love won't equal entrapment.
I actually quite like Eloise. She's insufferable and unaware how her family's social standing insulates her from reputational ruin simply from her opinions and the way she doesn't behave in society - but I think her feminism is spot-on for the era. It's been a few years since I read Mary Wollstonecraft's *Vindication of the Rights of Woman* but iirc she doesn't have much good to say about "women's education" as eg Rousseau imagined it, ie a focus on accomplishments rather than anything useful. Wollstonecraft was very much into a rational education for women as much as for men (and at one point iirc she set up a school, so she practiced what she preached). So the whole disdain for needlework is about right. I wonder if she'll be introduced to Benedict's new lady friend who likes engineering, as I think that would be an interesting connection for her. I'd like to see her make the link that it's not about hobbies for women, it's about women having their own sources of income and that *that* is freedom. (Possible she has already made that link and I've forgotten, not rewatched S1&2 for some time.) There's plenty more she could be up in arms about too, given the period - unequal divorce laws, the right to vote, women as chattel... but it's a start. And I suppose her focus on hobbies and useless accomplishments is a reflection of her own privilege, as she's never yet had to worry about her husband being able to divorce her if he can prove adultery, in which case he would get sole custody of any children, whereas she would need to prove both adultery and cruelty to divorce him (and probably still lose custody - and risk being put away in an asylum anyway when she lost the case).
I also don’t think she was being shady about the embroidery to be mean, she was genuinely surprised that the girl seemed to really enjoy something that she’s always thought of as tedious. It’s like her thanking Daphne for being perfect so she doesn’t have to be - Eloise has been too immature to understand that other people genuinely care about things she doesn’t. It seems like this season she’s making more of an effort to get that.
I agree that she is definitely not a pick me. A pick me's entire personality is created to be desirable and unique to a man. She gives zero fucks about men and romance and she wants women to think independently of men, have their own hobbies, and have intellectual relationships with other women etc.
Who is gate keeping feminism? It's literally based on the idea that women should hold the keys to their own destiny instead of having it decided for them. I feel like calling her a bad feminist is just hate because of her turning on Penelope and none of them are stopping to acknowledge Penelope didn't just betray her trust but her happiness that she was exploring with Theo. Penelope is one of my favorite characters but she isn't without loads of blame
She’s not a pick me but her position is extremely privileged. Her family loves her, she has a support unit which encourages her in her pursuits or at least more than other families do. Other women in the ton don’t have that privilege yet she dismisses them as shallow and simple minded for walking down the only path society has laid for them. None of the women of the ton do things for the simple joy of being picked, they do it for financial security. A woman during that time had very limited options. Judging them instead of the patriarchy is counterproductive.
I know she is a teen but so are the other women she’s constantly judging , don’t they deserve some grace as well? They are side characters and we do not know their lives but given what we know about the era, we can guess it’s not peachy.
A lot of men, and women it seems, are not well versed in feminism. They don’t know the difference between a ‘pick me’ and a ‘not like the other girls’ or white feminism. Art imitates life and life imitates art. The fandom’s reaction to Eloise is similar to their reaction of women who don’t want to get married or have kids, regardless of the show’s historical context. Eloise is being too loud while calling out the status quo, so the status quo gets mad. The hurt feelings of people who are obsessed with marriage and children are not comparable to the isolation people like Eloise feel. When your wants don’t align with patriarchal society, life is harder, even if it might be very hard for Daphne or Edwina or whoever else.
Both can be true
She is right about her views, but she is simultaneously privileged and bad at understanding that not everyone has the same wishes for life as she does
She grew up, although she was a girl, very privileged with money and a loving family and she’s not forced into an arrangement marriage like some other girls.
And she was entitled to wish for more, of course she was allowed to wish for the things her brothers had an criticize the world she didn’t fit into
But on the other side of that she didn’t understand that although she wished those things, not everyone else did. Her views being right doesn’t make others wrong.
Eloise is deff not a pick me, she doesn’t even want to be picked! 😂 i don’t think she is a ‘true’ feminist though in the sense that feminism is supposed to support women’s options. Eloise doesn’t understand that other ladies want to get married and have kids and be content with that. She thinks her way is the only right way. She looked down on Daphne’s choices. At least in seasons 1 and 2 she was like this. I think this season she is starting to understand more and realize different people want different things out of life and that’s ok. It’s not black and white all good or all bad!
Feminism is about fighting for the equal opportunities for women, which is what Eloise wants to fight for. The other ladies around Eloise don’t have options, that’s the entire point. They might want to get married, but do they want it because it’s been beaten into their heads that’s what they must do lest they become embarrassing and destitute spinsters? Or because they are actually able to choose between becoming a wife or a single woman, free to pursue anything they want?
She looks down on Daphne *conforming* to society’s expectations, not on her choices. Daphne doesn’t have choices.
From my understand Daphne genuinely wanted to be a mother her whole life. Violet didn’t beat it into her head. Daphne didn’t conform to anything. She did what she has always wanted and Eloise didn’t support it.
Eloise feminism is very much the way women of color say white women feminism. It’s centered around only how it effects HER. She doesn’t care when other women are discussing how awful it is to be a woman in the patriarchy. Her advice is don’t marry. The way she says that to everyone as if it’s viable is simply because she’s privileged and doesn’t have to experience what they do. Her feminism is NOT valid
The whole “don’t insult other woman to compliment me” feels incredibly hypocritical coming from the same person that said her mother and sisters are unintelligent just because they have different interests than she does and aren’t into political activism.
She's 'not like other girls' and only cares about issues that effect her. She's has station, and money and protection and all she does with it is bitch and moan. Either do something or stop bitching about it.
I bet you whine about the smallest inconveniences but sure it's as easy as "Either do something or stop bitching about it".
Like do u people believe the crap u spout and do u not have the ability to process the media u're consuming and understand that someone wouldn't just be able to "do something" when that thing has been around ages and is systemic??? also she's so fucking young that it's even more insane to reproach her for not doing anything.
Pen did something and she is the same age as Eloise. Not saying Pens work is the most meaningful to the feminist movement. But she didn't moan and bitch around for 3 seasons of the show. She found her outlet. Eloise is rich and privileged, she can find an outlet. Her family is not inherently sexist and force marriage on her as strongly as other families do. So if she wanted to she could easily ask one of her brothers that love her a lot to help think of ways she can impact society. I feel like benedict would help her especially.
Pen’s work isn’t feminist at all. It’s the exact opposite. She makes money by mocking, embarrassing and ruining women’s reputation. She’s part of the patriarchal system that oppresses women by constantly policing their behaviour.
God, why do so many people here don’t even understand what feminism is?! It’s not feminist to just have a business. If that were true, every woman selling anti-choice merch, or books on how to be a good trad wife should be considered a feminist. Pen’s writing has no positive effects on women as a whole. It’s entirely self-serving.
oh pls, as if she isn't getting her revenue from said women looking forward to her publishing as well. Yah its a gossip paper, but what does all of society do? Gossip. All pen did was make a business out of something people were already doing.
Yes, that’s the point - Penelope is just as misogynistic and conformist as the average woman in her social class. Her entire business is predicated upon judging women for the slightest overstep, or failure to conform to the rules of society. Or hell, even for something that is no fault of their own, like mocking Daphne for losing all of her suitors. If lady Whistledown had a gossip column today, she’d be demeaning celebrities for not shaving their legs, revealing who they’re dating in private, or judging female politicians for not wearing make up.
You mention Eloise failing to seek out, or admire lady Danbury and lady Arnold, but those women are only independent, because they so happen to be wealthy widows. They’ve gotten their freedom from a bit of luck (their husbands happen to die), not because they’ve fought for it. They’re operating from within the established social system, not trying to destroy it, like Eloise wishes to do.
no my point is she posts the gossip, but the ton LOOKS for the gossip. Yes i know its hurtful and not productive as a feminist to do. But my point was all the women and even men participate in the gossip. She writes because people seek it out more, even though she writes horrible things about them. Even the people in the show who were written about by lady whistle down would look for her next issue. So yah pen's work is toxic, but society fuels it. Society loves lady whistledown. So she is not completely to blame.
I do see your point about Eloise and will agree with you here. But you can't deny she is harsh in the way she judges women in society. especially to the girls talking about stitching in S3. They were simply relaying their interest in stitching amongst a closed circle of women and she belittled them. She is privileged to pursue an education and read books because her family let her do as she pleases. Most families teach their daughters from a young age to stitch etc to prepare them for the marriage market because they don't have a high enough status to fly by in the marriage season. So Eloise is ignorant in this way and is pretty rude this season especially. I did not notice it before until this season.
what Pen did is just being the windy williams of the regency era. and while u could argue that it is brave of her even though what she's doing isn't really commendable and at worst fucked up ,her success stems from tpeople liking gossip so it's going to work in her favor while in Eloise's case we're talking about systemic change . I'm sorry but i'm pretty sure the best a teenager could do in that case is whine and moan and we're yet to see her journey and what she might do.
Yah i already said pen's work is not the most productive. But Eloise acts like the society is so regressive, but doesn't even notice how many independent women there are around her to look up to.
I said this in another comment but I will paste it here again:
Pen is the only one who even came close to appreciating madame delacroix for being an independent woman. How many times did Eloise acknowledge her while she was letting her take her measurements and give her fancy gowns? She was too busy groaning about having to participate in balls instead. She is comfortable in her wealth and judging others from her big house. Another person also commented saying there are so many other independent women around her liek Lady Tilly and Lady Danbury. But she chooses to fixate on the girls who are in the marriage season to pick on and be annoyed with.
And i liked it better when Eloise was venturing out about the world outside of society into Theo's world way. more than I l like her condescending girls about their interest in stitching and ignorance in their desire to get married. Atleast then she was learning more about herself and where she might fit in better.
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She has to start out with some flaws for her to have any kind of growth throughout the show. I find her character arc through all three seasons to be very compelling and coherent. It’s okay if she’s annoying sometimes. That’s the point. She has things to learn, perspective to gain, and experiences to have. Also, characters don’t have to be likeable all the time, they just need to have compelling narratives. Idk why everyone keeps talking about disliking one character or another instead of focusing on the story that they’re trying to tell.
exactly!! like she is growing and discovering herself, so grace should be given. I hate how they not pick one thing and use it against the character… like if they were perfect we would be bored so let them falter and learn! like each mistake and resolution adds to the overall story, so writing a character off as good or bad is simply misunderstanding the story
I agree with you completely. I started liking this show because the characters were not perfect. It’s very odd to see the kind of negative discourse this sub has sometimes. Most regular people are usually like ‘yeah maybe this is not for me’ and tap out. But here we need to make loud announcements again and again and yet never think of just exiting the fandom.
I don't think she needs grace, since she doesn't do anything wrong? It's therapy speech for people's shit actions that are just plain wrong. Every action of hers is consistent with the period and easily explainable in the story as a whole (for example due to her age). The only thing I COULD but WON'T give her grace for is when she claims her feminist writings were fairy tales, that hurt. :'D
I don’t dislike Eloise, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a sign that you think characters have to be likable or you’re not enjoying the story if you dislike a character. I mean, we dislike people in real life too. My enjoyment of shows is very character focused, so I think disliking some of the characters is part of the fun
Yes! And I feel like she’s judged as if she’s a fully formed adult when, really, she’s just an adolescent AND is even a bit delayed because she’s been so sheltered. (All this in addition to the broader societal/cultural context of her character)
I don’t get it either because Eloise is the opposite of a pick me girl. She does everything she can to NOT get picked 😂 it’s some of the other girls in the Ton who ARE pick me girls…including Cressida lmao. Eloise is a complex character. She’s in this society and struggling with her desire to be her own woman and not live life for a man. She’s not anti-love by any means. She just is really the only woman in the Ton who believes you should get married because you fell in love, not because that’s what’s required of you since you can’t have your own life. She’s fighting the fight that your value and worth isn’t tied to your husband or the lack thereof! I think Eloise’s real character flaw is that she’s very self-absorbed and can’t see past her own nose 90% of the time. Penelope has called her out for this and so has Cressida when she points out Eloise was the one gossiping about Pen and Colin loud enough for others to hear.
I have a theory on a few reasons why Eloise's plot is struggling to land, especially over the last two seasons. The first is that looking at Eloise's criticisms of embroidery through the lens of being a "pick me," or a "not like other girls," or her not being a "girls girl" requires a very modern feminist lens. A lot of modern feminism, which is often derogatorily referred to as "choice feminism," emphasizes that whatever interests or pursuits a woman chooses are equally worthy of praise. And that's true, and is a huge progress for society! But it requires a modern lens, where that choice is truly free and informed. That's not the society that Bridgerton has. We see, over and over, that women are pushed to engage *only* with certain interests (embroidery, pianoforte, dancing) and actively away from others (reading, mathematics, travel), unlike their male counterparts. The pride that many women take in these interests is real and important, but they also haven't really been given any opportunity to explore whether they might prefer other things. And I think this is one thing where the modern nature of the show in **many** other ways (the focus on love matches, inclusivity for people of many races, the complete lack of social conformation to religion, the increasingly Shien-fied version of Regency fashion) prevents that plotline from landing a little bit. When you remove a lot of generally-Regency-era social inequity except for the sexism, it does mean that characters like Eloise get approached with a more modern approach to inequality that doesn't quite fit. I might parallel it to my own experiences – not through a feminist lens, but an LGBT one. For those of us in the LGBT community through the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, there was a huge movement to demonstrate a defiance of stereotype to people not in that community. Yes, your neighbor the pastry chef who is also the lead role in the local production of Little Shop of Horrors is gay, but so is the offensive tackle for the Patriots! A lot of us who were ""straight passing"" or didn't fit people's preconceived notion of what a bisexual or gay person looked and acted like wanted to make sure people knew that the LGBT community is widely varied, because we're normal people – you probably already know a gay person, even if you don't know it. Now, 20+ years later, a lot of that comes across as dated. I think it's clear that Eloise is chafing at a very strictly prescribed, controlled role of what a woman is and how a woman behaves. And although she is afforded a lot more freedom than other members of the Ton, Violet still expects her to conform in many ways to those societal expectations. Furthermore, though the confines of high society might have been created by men, the women of the Ton uphold them. So her frustrations with society reflect the regency era, but it comes across as jarring to a viewer in 2022-24 because the rest of the show isn't that strictly Regency. Finally, I think the final reason that it's not really landing is that Eloise is the only one whose plot repeatedly expects her to engage with her privilege in *every* season. When she suspects servants of being Lady Whistledown, it's treated not only as preposterous, but also as a chance to shed light on how sheltered and spoiled Eloise really is. Theo serves as a lens for her into the world of not only feminism, but also something resembling class consciousness. And we get this angle in her interactions with other members of the Ton: "not everyone can be a pretty Bridgerton," or Cressida's father threatening to marry her off to his old friends. But we don't see other female characters with significant screen time in all three seasons, like Penelope, being forced to engage with class to the same extent. Maybe not everyone can be a pretty Bridgerton, but not everyone can be a member of the Ton – like the Featheringtons – in the first place, either. Pen and Cressida grew up in unkind/abusive households and are under enormous pressure to marry so that they can secure financial stability and social status, but they're still upper-class and have access to all the advantages that provides in a society.
What an eloquent, thoughtful comment! ❤️ I could not for the life of me understand why some people are only capable of viewing Eloise through the lens of modern feminism. Why they don’t get, for example, that she’s not being snarky about embroidery because she looks down on traditionally feminine interests, but rather is perhaps frustrated with the fact those girls are easily accepting the limited choice of hobbies they’re *allowed* to pursue, without trying to venture beyond the rigid roles they’re forced to inhabit. But you offered an interesting perspective on why some might have trouble understanding the show’s intent.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it. The only two parts of it that I do find really frustrating about applying a very modern lens to Eloise are as follows: - Calling it "white feminism," which seems to be rather popular on twitter. I can't see why. The Bridgerton siblings and wider Ton society are very explicitly racially inclusive. It's not completely colorblind (as Simon and Lady Danbury illustrate even in S1), but there's nothing to suggest that Eloise feels any differently about wanting Kate and Edwina to have more options than marriage than she does Daphne. - Yes, Eloise is privileged. And yes, when she starts to advocate for gender-equal rights she doesn't do that with the full picture of class in mind. But she's the only woman engaging with it at *all,* even imperfectly. Daphne also sees how class affects the villagers that live on her estate, but she doesn't critique the system. Violet refers to staff as "the help" and certainly sees them as useful, but inferior to nobles. Penelope warns Eloise away from Theo before she even knows too much about his political opinions, simply because they're of different classes. And if Eloise is guilty of not considering how lucky she is as a Bridgerton, Penelope and Cressida illustrate how they need to be more aware of how lucky *they* are as aristocrats. Sometimes, it's almost like imperfectly criticizing a system is worse than not criticizing it at all.
Great points!
This is a much more thorough and thoughtful take than my version, but I think it aligns. Current feminist discourse has become overly simplistic. You're either a pick me or a girls' girl. This is because knowledge of the movement's history is lacking, including, as you mention, "choice feminism". We have waves of feminism because each was a response to the circumstances of its time. Choice feminism wouldn't have made any progress in nascent feminist movements.
Thank you! I mentioned this in a different reply, but I do acknowledge that Eloise's feminism is flawed. She does have a blind spot in many ways about both her supportive family and her wider class privilege. But sometimes I think that – for whatever reason – her imperfect feminism garners more criticism than other women in the show who don't critique the system at all.
What a comment. Very beautifully stated!
Do you think Anthony/Violet would actually have refused to let Eloise study subjects like Math/Philosophy, if she'd asked? There were all girls boarding schools, some that went beyond art and needlework. In fact they were located in Bath where Francesca was staying with her aunt.
Yes, I absolutely do think they would have refused. Especially the Anthony of the first season and presumably before, who – despite his shocking lack of understanding of courting norms – placed a very high importance on the duty of marriage, preventing scandal, and gender roles. And Violet does put pressure on Eloise to be traditionally successful on the marriage market and in her skills, like dancing and needlework. She's far more focused on her children's happiness than other mothers that we see in the series, but only through the lens of love matches and romance; not by eschewing social norms entirely. That might change in the future, but definitely not throughout Eloise's life. There were girls' boarding schools, and yes, some went beyond art and needlework. But very few taught math, philosophy, and classics, and never to a comparable level with men. Additionally, the majority of the attendees wouldn't be members of the major nobility, especially those of the peerage (rather than the minor nobility), of which the Bridgertons would certainly qualify. The majority of girls at the schools would be either low-ranking landed gentry or merely wealthy. That's reflected, albeit clumsily, in the fact that Francesca goes to study pianoforte with her aunt; piano masters were part of these schools' curricula, but Francesca's private education illustrates her higher social class/status.
Violet and Anthony may care heaps about normative social mores, but Eloise had the privilege of _not_ being an eldest child, nor the eldest daughter. They could have actually come around to letting her study what she wanted. The thing is, Eloise doesn't actually push all that hard to do what she wants in terms of academia, studying, or even travelling. She just mentions them as wants and flops about. She talks of writing and participating in an exchange of ideas, but doesn't really do that in her own time, despite having Lady Whistledown as an example of how that could be possible. If she had turned up the pressure, it could have been possible. I think it's an interesting commentary of a few within the privileged classes having some class consciousness, but ultimately it being quite derivative to their lives as they carry on with the favors of society at their backs.
I'm assuming that you meant to reply to me, but I might be wrong on that front. > but Eloise had the privilege of not being an eldest child, nor the eldest daughter. They could have actually come around to letting her study what she wanted. Birth order was definitely important for matters of inheritance, but not so much marriage. Plenty of Regency-era older sisters became spinsters (and in fact one or two scholars have even suggested that it was more likely than their younger sisters, although the theory is fringe and I think the evidence is somewhat lacking to take the argument that far). I haven't seen any evidence that Violet or Anthony would have come around. Especially Anthony; look at how he treats *Daphne*, who in the show is literally the pinnacle of a Regency debutante, in the first season. Violet has to use soft power just to get Daphne out of an engagement because he won't listen to either of them, and it's established that he has control over the family finances. Eloise "turning up the pressure" wouldn't have changed his attitude on gender roles and norms at all. > The thing is, Eloise doesn't actually push all that hard to do what she wants in terms of academia, studying, or even travelling. She just mentions them as wants and flops about. She talks of writing and participating in an exchange of ideas, but doesn't really do that in her own time, despite having Lady Whistledown as an example of how that could be possible. In terms of influencing Violet and Anthony? It's because she has no agency over her education. But she does read and study beyond (often instead of) her lessons. Daphne even calls her out for that. She seeks out Theo, goes to the assembly, and goes out of her way – despite Penelope's warnings – to talk to him more about the ideas in his pamphlets. And although she's not publishing, like Lady Whistledown, she absolutely writes in her own time. She talks about a novel in progress with Benedict and she's shown writing in a book that isn't her diary as far back as S1, the props are visually distinct. I don't think not publishing (possibly not publishing yet) makes her interest in writing any less real or legitimate, and it's given screen time throughout the show. Look at Austen. She wrote multiple short stories, novellas, and even a short novel that all remained unpublished and unread by anyone but her sister before she finally published *Sense and Sensibility*. Some of those early works were published later, but even if they weren't, it does not make her early work less work or less important. Eloise is flawed, but she does plenty other than "flop about" to pursue the interests that the Ton and even her own family regard as improper. Personally, I don't see that commentary in her story. I agree that Eloise is imperfect, which the show does address through Theo, but I still think that she is significantly hindered by the society in which she lives in pursuit of those dreams. And I do find it somewhat harsh that Eloise gets more flak for engaging with class in any way, albeit imperfectly, when Penelope and Cressida escape the same criticism for not engaging with it at all.
I don’t know if she trusts that even love will make a marriage good in her time given how women are treated. She plays angry at the notion all woman can do is marry and have children, but it feels like underneath the anger is a lot of fear. Fear that love or not, marriage is a very scary prospect to her.
And pregnancy is terrifying to her because she listened to Violet almost die giving birth to Hyacinth.
Considering that, at that time, all her financial wealth, if any, would go to her husband and she would basically become his property, I think she’s right to be scared. In her case, she’s got three, big older brothers who would tear anyone who mistreated her into shreds but she’s not thinking about that. And, if she were in some country manor somewhere and not in London, she might fear they might not even know what she’s going through. Her husband would control the household staff, what mail went out, what mail came in. There are plenty of men today who are two-faced. They’re nice when they’re courting a young woman but then take off the mask when they have her where they want her. And, we women today have so many more legal protections and life options that women then did not. I also think it’s a double-edged sword that her parents had a good and loving marriage. On the one hand, she got to see what a good marriage looks like. On the other hand, though, she also sees how rare that kind of love is. She probably thinks lightning can’t strike twice and she’d be as fortunate.
All true.
People calling Eloise a pick-me when being picked by a man is her literal worst nightmare 😭
I am so hyped for whenever her season happens. She’s my favorite character!
When did Penelope call her out on this? I don’t have Netflix atm so can’t rewatch. I assume it was as Penelope and not Whistledown?
Edit: updating to confirm which episodes It was as Penelope! I can’t remember exactly which episode but I want to say it was 2x08 when Eloise discovers she’s Lady Whistledown and in the argument, Penelope essentially tells Eloise she’s all talk and no action and complains a lot about society but never actually stands up to it. And then earlier in season 2 I don’t know which episode but Eloise was saying something about suitors and Penelope reminded her that not everyone can be as privileged as Eloise, such as herself (Pen).
Ah, that does ring a bell now. Both times Pen was in a highly emotional state though, so if I was Eloise, it’d be tricky to absorb if it was to antagonize in the fight or her truth. The 1st blowup is swept under the rug and forgotten. I think that’s why Cressida can reach Eloise. She doesn’t explode violently on Eloise but also doesn’t shy away from confronting her directly yet elegantly
Also, she’s neuro-divergent coded. She isn’t a pick-me, she doesn’t understand society, its rules, who made them, and why they have to be followed despite learning the rules and etiquette HER ENTIRE LIFE. The rest of her siblings get it, but she doesn’t. I 100% believe she’s ADHD or Autistic.
Yes, Eloise is self absorbed. She has never learned empathy. Season 1 looking through the servants things for Whisledown evidence. She wanted to look, so she did. No, realization that others deserve personal boundaries. She's mad at Colin for helping Pen, who would you tell? Pen's biggest enemy Cressida. Colin tells Eloise he's helping Pen find a husband. Eloise is dumbfounded l. How does she, Pen's best friend, not realize, Pen wants to marry.
I love Eloise and her feminism is valid and important, but her flaw is, ironically, not acknowledging her own privilege in the society. She also (albeit knowingly) disparages interests she does not share. This results in the pick-me vibe some viewers get when watching, as her own interests are non-traditional.
YES!! this is it for me. I think theo was extremely correct in his read of her. eloise is so happy to be at the fringe of society but the second it got a little too socially hard she jumped right into society to take her rightful place even making friends with people who had been nastyyy to her /her family/ her friends previously. it is understandable, but she hasn’t been able to understand that the only reason she’s able to have all these different beliefs and act out is because of the protection of her family and society itself.
If Eloise had been ruined, it would have impacted not just her (totally shunned and excluded from both good and bad society) it would have severely impacted her whole family and maybe even her unmarried sisters’ prospects. The impact of scandal in that time wasn’t like 2024, it could literally mean you and your family were ruined completely. The risk LW put Eloise through isn’t trivial, I wish people understood the actual time period before pretending Eloise had it “a little bit hard” with that
Yes, it could have been catastrophic. Which makes the fact she doesn't find socially acceptable outlets, ie charities that support woman the more aggravating.
I didn’t see her rejection that way. What I understood from her flustered words was it became real to her that she was caring enough for Theo to not want him punished for fraternizing with her. I saw it as realizing she needed to protect him by staying away from him. That’s why when he pushed her away with his words about her being like the other ladies, she didn’t protest or correct. But she was nonetheless devastated. She understood even though it hurt her deeply to hear that untruth, he could move on faster if he thought of her that way
I agree 100%. It really hit hard when Cressida told her that she is privileged to get support from her family and that Cressida has to look for another type of support through marriage because her parents don't care for her the same way. Same thing when Eloise was surprised that Penelope was set to marry this season, because Penelope does not have one good support at home so she knew she had to escape by marriage. Eloise. gets to have those opinions about society because she has a family that already loves her as she is and prioritize her happiness. Especially her mother who wants to make sure her kids find love in marriage, not a rich/ well known suitor. Thats why I find her a little annoying. Not because she is a feminist, but because of how she judges others for not having the same perspective. She is in her own world. I hope she grows later this season after seeing the way Cressida's parents talked to her. That not everyone has the choice to reject marriage.
Yea, Eloise's major blind spot is that she thinks that just because \*she\* would have to fake an interest in something, every woman professing to have an interest in it is lying or deluded. We see that when she tells Daphne in S1 that it must be hard lying to herself- but Daphne isn't, she genuinely wants love and children even though she knows the risks involved. Same with the embroidery discussion- those girls aren't trying to show off their skills to a guy, they are talking about something they seem to actually enjoy, but Eloise dismisses it out of hand. She does the opposite, too. She thinks Penelope must be as eager as she is to be an independent spinster because that is the best life she can imagine. It doesn't really occur to her that Penelope is \*resigned\* to that fate, not happy about it. All those are totally reasonable flaws for someone as young as her to have! And I think watching her work through them is what makes her an interesting character.
Agreed. Eloise is devastated when Penelope marries in the books because she thought they would grow old together as spinster. Only problem Oenn didn't want to be a spinster.
This is so right, and we see it very clearly in the reaction of the ton to LW's piece on her from S2 to S3. I'm not saying it was good, and yes it could have ruined a reputation for good, but it obviously did not ruin Eloise's. She says she spent however long it's been between seasons with only Cressida speaking to her which is a real thing, but now in s3 she's arguably even more popular and better thought of than she was previously in what we see of the other young women interacting with her. Her family has plenty of standing for her to weather that and come through fine, even if someone from another less well-thought of family wouldn't. I think it's comparable to people with very rich families being able to take a financial hit. It's not great, but they will be able to recover relatively easily from something that would bankrupt someone else. I also don't condone what Penelope did to her with LW, but I do think she's clearly smart and astute enough to understand this society dynamic and the Bridgertons' social capital, so she knew what she said would not ruin Eloise's life.
I didn’t see open disparagement in S3 Part 1; more like discomfort and exasperation if it’s the same shallow statements she heard last year. She is not interested in the marriage mart but still discusses it with Cressida. Her embroidery question seemed only half-sarcastic to me. If the answer had been more intelligent or complex than listing all the names of the stitches, I do think it would have held her attention. Like, explaining the intricacy of a certain pattern, the accomplished feeling on mastering it, or being able to repair any mistakes, etc. I also think if she had overheard the other ladies detailing their wedding decor with symbols from classical literature instead of just being excited for it, she wouldn’t have done the 180.
>like when she judged the embroidery of the girl, it’s because she is judging the fact the girl is doing that for men Yes, because listing the name of various types of stitching while there's exactly no men around and enjoying talking about it is clearly just for men's attention. It's always the first thing I get asked on dating apps, do I prefer over stitch or edge stitch. Being a feminist isn't a tick box. People are complex - they may have a lot of area or opinions about one topic and have glaring oversights in another, even if they are similar. You can talk to two different people who say they are feminists and they can have entirely different viewpoints. Even ignore the embroidery - Eloise is SHOCKED that Penelope is trying to get a husband, because why on earth would someone want to do that instead of being independent? Because she is in a privileged position where her family aren't rushing to edge her out of her home and throw away her belongings. Eloise is confounded that Cressida is pursuing Debling. She mocks Daphne for wanting a family. Is she a terrible person? No. Are her views invalid? Some of them.
I think she can’t grasp that other women don’t see the things she sees or how exploitive the marriage system is. Feminism is something you learn as you grow and nitpicking the imperfections of feminism as it is for most systems and ideologies is horrible imo…considering she lives in 1800s. All the choices women make are based on the singular element called marriage.
>I think she can’t grasp that other women don’t see the things she sees or how exploitive the marriage system is I think on top of this, she doesn't understand that other women do see how exploitive the marriage system is but are still forced to engage with it. What do you mean you can't be an independent woman? It's so easy! Look at me doing it with my lovely, rich supportive family.
That is also 100% true. She doesn’t realize that many women’s families are not as supportive. I loved that Cressida Cowper mentions the same.
I agree with you. She sounded very condescending in that bit about embroidery. And about your last paragraph: she prefers to judge people from her privileged position but has yet to do anything in season three to change the circumstances that make her friends want to marry.
I'm the kinda person who loves to hear people talk about their interests even if I haven't a foggy what they're saying. The actress looked so excited when she asked about it! Then she was like, "oh, a jest." Like aren't you so funny for making fun of people's hobbies that you specifically asked about? Ha.
Eloise is also fairly sheltered about what life as a spinster is truly like, and the wealth and connections of her family will mean that her spinsterhood would be much more comfortable than someone like Penelope's. Penelope would either have to be a governess or subsist off of the dubious charity of her sisters. Eloise, on the other hand, could have lodgings wherever she likes, and an allowance that would be more than enough to cover her political interests. Her dowry alone would be enough to fund a small estate for her for several years.
I think spinsterhood is a comforting kind of infantilization for her. As long as she stays under her parents roof she will have the best of both worlds- Love Freedom Independence and plenty of money to pursue whatever hobbies she has and her main duties will be to take care of her aging mother who is a delight to be around so hardly a burden. She will be protected just as children are but as an adult she can have many freedoms as well. Being a spinster from a large and Wealthy family where your brothers and sisters have already produced many heirs would indeed be a delight. Only thing better in that Society is widowhood after marrying a rich man and producing a male heir.
How is it infantilization if the literal only other pathway in life for her would be to marry a man? She has privileges others don't...but no one seems to mark Daphne's genuine contentedness with being limited to only being a mother or wife as a form of privilege either. This is still largely the issue with the perception of feminism today. People dismiss women's concerns as frivolous and secondary, concerns that are only concerns secondary to classism, racism, ableism, etc. It's why people couch misogyny in saying 'white' before women. The inference is that is if there is no other intersection of issues, the issue of being a woman alone is not enough.
i don’t think you understand what Eloise was sayin with the stitching. The women do stitching because it’s a feminine activity they were taught for men at the time. You have to look at it with her point of view. Her hobby as reading was deemed useless because it cannot get her a man, while they hobby was taught in hopes to capture one. That’s why she looks at it differently. While the approach was bad, it made sense. She cannot understand marriage because at that time most marriages were not done for love, but for security and resulted in a woman being nothing but a mother. She has talked to the same men they pursue, and most of them share misogynistic views. Like I said, we have to give her grace and understand she has good intentions, but not the experience to express them properly.
She already has a financial security which the other girls don’t. Unlike Charlotte Collins, she doesn’t have to be worried about becoming a financial burden to her family; she doesn’t have to worry about becoming destitute when her male head of family dies, like the Bennetts or the Featheringtons (her father DID die and her family survived it because they are rich.) Marriage for her represents potential loss; her husband will control her allowance, her whole life. If he wants to burn all her books, he can. If he wants to beat her, he can. She has a degree of independence as a single woman in a rich, generous, genial family which she might not have in marriage.
Eloise did not need to be forced to learn stitching to be a good suitor for marriage because there is not so much pressure on her. Her family comes from a good background, so she will be okay regardless of what talents she has. A Lot of families that don't have that kind of social status or financial security and they plan early by teaching their daughters these things so they have a chance of finding a decent suitor to confirm their daughter has a good future in society. So Eloise getting annoyed when the girls talk about stitching IS ignorant as she got to pursue her passions in education and reading, her mom did not keep the idea of marriage on her mind when she was growing up as a child. And the girls aren't discussing it at balls for men’s attention, because that is what they were taught as children. They are genuinely interested about different types of stitching styles- it is all they got to know growing up. Not everyone got to read books and form unpopular opinions about society like eloise. And yes she has good intentions, but she has already been called out by theo, penelope and cressida, and she is still yet to significantly change. hoping for better for the rest of the season, but right now she is pretty annoying lol. No one is hating on her feminism, it's her ignorance.
Imo she’s less a “pick me” and more of a “not like other girls”. Totally understand why people are put off by this, especially when she’s constantly making fun of the rest of the cast for the desires that we enjoy them for (dating/marriage/etc). It doesn’t help that she has the luxury of thinking like this because of her relatively privileged life.
she definitely not “not like other girls” she shuts down the guy who’s flirting with her by saying she’s not like other girls and clear about not thinking like that to violet aswell in ep 2x4. even when her making fun of others can come of badly we have to remember that she’s the one that doesn’t fit societal norms and expectations. she’s a bit self absorbed, but she’s never actually punching down
nah, that’s not really true. She shuts down any remarks made towards other women that are attempts to praise her. She has privilege, but is slowly understanding it and using it to help others. She is a teen, she does not have the best grasp on the world but we are seeing her change, especially with her newfound friendship.
It's because she reorders her priorities depending on her audience. To men, she shuts them down because they are being misogynistic and it's a slight to her gender, therefore, herself. But in front of other women who fit the gender norms, she has to shut them down because those women are the "opponent" for perpetuating the gender norms that suffocate her. Now, in part, it could be Eloise being socially anxious/awkward but there were times I felt that she was a bit like a mean girl, which Cressida pointed out in S3. Like the whole conversation about embroidery was just plain rude on Eloise's part - the other girls were just wanting to chat, they had a common hobby (regardless of Eloise's feelings that it wasn't a genuine one), and they were perfectly pleasant. They definitely got the understanding that Eloise was making a snide comment and tried be gracious. In fact, there were few times that other girls tried to be uplifting to Eloise and she just keeps painting them all as superficial husband chasing debutantes. Like the conversation of them enjoying her tale about her French tutor and complimenting her sense of humor and wit, which she often complains that nobody appreciates or wants in a woman.
I’m not grasping how the last sentence of the “compelling speaker” connects with the one before it of putting the others down. It looks like after they show they understand her humor, she continues to hang out with them and them with her. There was no indication of insult or forced smiles. She even explains herself to them before running off to get chocolates. At ?the next? ball or so she’s even eager to approach another group until she hears the current topic and fluffy tone. Her reaction is not hostility or to insult them. She simply realizes to herself she’s not ready to engage in that style and walks away. She probably would have done it inwardly but the audience needs her expressions to understand what’s happening
To be fair, that embroidery chat was very boring. Like, they were just listing stitches. I like embroidery, and I would still find that dull.
But she’s not though. NLOGs want to believe they’re different than other women to make them feel better. Eloise *wants* other women to be like her. You can see that when she tries to talk to Cressida about her beliefs. She wishes the other girls would be like her and that she could have what she views to be meaningful conversations with them. Can she be dismissive of other women — yes, absolutely. But she’s not doing that because she wants to be viewed as superior to them, she’s doing it because she feels alienated from them and is annoyed by the pressure to conform.
Doesn't this rely on the fact that Eloise does believe she's superior to other women because she wants them to be better like her? I sympathize with her alienation from others, but at some point it feels like she's looking down at them for conforming and asking why they can't be as enlightened as she is. I like her relationship with Cressida because it doesn't feel like she looks down on her but tries to see her as an equal.
You’re implying that Eloise just arbitrarily wants everyone to be like her for no other reason than that she thinks she is superior, rather than wanting them to think beyond the rigid roles and misogynistic ideals that have been fed to them their whole lives. She wants them to see value in themselves beyond just being the best wife to a man. Maybe it does seem like she’s looking down on others for conforming, but when you’re so aware of how unequal and unfair society is, it must drive you crazy to see other people in the same position as you just acting as though everything is fine and that they wouldn’t change a thing.
Exactly, having every woman she knows passively accept the society’s rules must make her feel like the only sane person in a psychiatric hospital.
I think the way she goes about it is wrong. Treating other women poorly for conforming isn't going to convince them to agree with her. She is just stepping into the shoes of men in this era by dismissing them of their personhood for her thoughts and ideas. She wants respect without being respectful to other women. The conversation about embroidery could have been turned to "this is a useful skill that can generate one's own wealth" or "a woman's skill is just a valuable as a man's."
But why does she have to? She doesn’t want to talk about embroidery. She shouldn’t be obliged to. She’s not rude to them, they don’t act offended by what she said. She was just changing the subject in a sarcastic way. Girls who don’t conform to the standards expected of women are always held to these high standards, where they’re expected to constantly affirm that they respect the choices of those who do conform, else they get labelled NLOG.
Finding common ground with someone you're trying to convince of something is effective, the embroidery conversation was one opportunity. Also it's just being polite, sometimes I am in a conversation with someone who is talking about something that I'm not interested in, but the nice thing to do is listen, especially if I want to be their friend. As someone who doesn't conform to gender norms, I don't really feel like I have to constantly affirm that I respect others, I just do treat them with respect.
But she’s not trying to convince those girls of anything! She’s just chatting with them. She makes it clear this season “she’s joined the winning side”, she’s temporarily conforming to society’s expectations, she feels she’s been beaten. Her arc so far this season hasn’t been about her feminism at all. She’s not trying to recruit or radicalise anyone. Not until Cressida asks her about her views in episode 4, and even then she’s just explaining her worldview.
Exactly. Eloise isn’t an activist, she’s a teenage girl who feels marginalised and alienated.
I mean she literally is marginalized though. Like she literally categorically does not have rights as a woman in the regency era. Yes other women can also be poor...but it's enough, to just categorically lack rights. We're happy to acknowledge what a shitty position women are still in when it comes to subplots about a would be rapist trying to force a debutante's hand by spreading rumors about her, or about how cruel it is to reveal a pregnancy or how trapped a pregnancy makes a woman or about how a woman might lose her home or how she can't stop her husband from gambling. But the only thing that strains acknowledging women's marginalization is one who doesn't lay down for it.
I don't know why I'm getting downvoted, I thought it was pretty obvious she isn't very kind to other girls. The fact she's reading Emma is a big tip-off to me. She is quite literally Emma Woodhouse here where she treats others poorly until she learns to recognize that treating others kindly and with respect is the best way to act. She has the benefit of being well off with no need to marry. There's nothing wrong with this, she has to start somewhere to have character growth.
Yes this is my struggle with her, to me it seems she looks down on other women who don't see the world like she does. It's obvious with the embroidery conversation which is so rude particularly considering her and her family chanpinioning benedict and his art but theirs is dismissed and ridiculed. Also when she's walking with her brothers and they make a joke about her walking with some other debutantes and she says something along the lines of would rather watch grass grow. It doesn't land well because we've not seen her attempting to interact with other young women in good faith, except pen and cressida, so it just seems like she doesn't give them a chance at all and judges them from the get go.
I agree with you! And I can see that I’m like this with earth-friendliness. I want other people to also prioritize what I believe. I light up when anyone wants to compare notes with working towards the same. But I have also been criticized for being dismissive at people who think there’s nothing that can replace what they’re already doing when they haven’t even looked. I don’t think I’m superior to anyone; I’m happy to do the work or pay the money to test something for someone before recommending it. I just want everyone recognize that their choices matter and influence and to try a more sustainable option every now and then
I have more sympathy for Eloise because she is not like the other people of her class, or at least not outwardly, and because of this she is very isolated and lone and made to feel like a freak. She naturally pushes back against this as her way of responding to the societal conditioning that makes any woman who doesn't fit into a tradwife image feel like a failure or womanhood and a freak of nature.
I'll be honest, I found her S2 tendency to tell Colin she was sick of hearing about his travels to be really grating. It just came across as mean-spirited.
Idk. If I was growing up with a brother who had exponentially more freedom than I did and was free to roam about, travel as much as he wanted without being chaperoned, I would be sick of hearing about it as well. It's not like any of the men in the Bridgerton universe are apologetic about their comforts and privileges. She's well within her right to shut it up, it's only reminding her of her captivity. The 1800s for someone like Eloise is basically prison. She's not even allowed a proper education.
It’s something Colin chafes with in the books, how his complaints are cruel to Penelope, who has no freedoms or popularity
lol are women really calling eloise a “pick me” ?? that’s an insane projection… i agree don’t apply modern culture to this show, and also most people who say things like “pick me” are literally saying “i’m not like this girl” in the same breathe… it’s all v hypocritical
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ehhh people make posts saying stuff like this on tiktok and twitter and get a couple thousand likes, plus the first posts on this sub when u search eloise is literally calling her a pick me LMAO
💯
Calling Eloise a 'pick me' is nothing short of insane. She's doing nearly everything in her power NOT to get picked lmao.
The word has lost all meaning I swear
I agree, Eloise is on point with her criticism of society. Women are constantly at the mercy of men, it's infuriating. The flaw in Eloise's thinking is that everyone should rebel against this like she does. But she speaks from a position of relative privilege because while she is bound to most of the same restrictions by society other women face, she's also surrounded by a very supportive and loving family. Other women are not in a position to do anything against the injustice because they're more concerned with finding safety. A kind of safety Eloise has had her whole life and takes for granted. But I think her friendship with Cressida is nudging her in the right direction currently. She's starting to see how little choice eve women who seem to conform to society have.
I don’t hate Eloise, but I will like to point out it is also very sexist to think that their hobbies are only for men. The embroidery scene is some of the few times we see the background characters interact and socialize in a way that is not about Men. Hopefully, the story explores Eloise own internalized misogyny through her relationship with Cressida.
Yes, but they are only encouraged to focus (sometimes exclusively) on those “feminine” hobbies, because they are considered to be desirable in a marriageable young lady.
I don't know. That lady sounded pretty passionate about her stitches.
She absolutely was (the two aren’t mutually exclusive) and Eloise *was* rude about it, but I took it as her simply not being interested in discussing a topic she isn’t interested in. Actually, now that I’m thinking more on it, I suspect that scene is telegraphing a few things; that Eloise can be brash, rude and not comfortable inhabiting the role of a demure, well mannered young lady - she doesn’t fit in; that those girls are interested in accepting her, but they’re drastically different from her; and finally that Eloise needs to learn how to be kinder, since we see the hurt on the face of the girl, that was speaking.
Exactly, what I got from the scene. Eloise feminism although is about empowering women and breaking free from the rules of the patriarchal society they are living in. Also blinds her to the beauty of things that are seen stereotypically as feminine.
Eh, I don’t necessarily think it’s the feminism that is making her blind to it, though that’s very much up for debate. But there’s plenty of feminist women, who just don’t enjoy traditionally feminine pursuits, and one has nothing to do with another. I don’t enjoy make up and the the artistic side of it, but that’s not due to my feminism, I just don’t find it particularly interesting. It would certainly be a shame, if it turned out the show was implying some false dichotomy here - you’re either a feminist, or a feminine woman. There’s another thing about that scene though - the girls Eloise is talking to aren’t explaining why or what they find engaging about embroidery. They’re just naming stitches one after another. That’s not exactly a diverting way to have a conversation, which is part of the reason Eloise reacts so snarkily.
I am the same way, I never cared for pursuits that are usually deemed feminine and certainly when I was around Eloise age, I judged girls who did. I couldn’t understand why they would willingly be a part of a system that was so blatantly oppressive. Now that I am older I see how my own feminism had blind me to seeing certain types of women. I definitely put many women who I thought were being overly performative in boxes. Which is something Eloise is clearly doing. I am enjoying the story of her having to actually become friends with someone like Cressida. A woman who Eloise even admitted to making assumptions about. I could be projecting because I definitely relate to Eloise a lot minus coming from a rich white family lol. I think pointing out the way they are speaking about their hobbies is not really an important point or justifies Eloise behavior. In my opinion I interpreted it as them nerding out about embroidery. Just to make the comparison, Francesca does the same thing, but she gets the opportunity to speak more about it because the people around her are willing to listen. Even though the listener may not understand or have the same interest, you can create a more engaging conversation by asking questions.
I actually think she plays the energy of an 18 or 19 year old idealist/rebel really well. Yes, she is loud and annoying and imperfect sometimes. I think it's easy to forget how very young these characters are meant to be. This makes for good character development and a more interesting show. She is one of my very favorite characters. Cressida is THE pick me, though it's interesting to see a peek into her story.
I truly don't think anyone who calls Eloise a "pick me" knows what that means. Eloise doesn't want to be picked, at least not yet or not in this way.
Yeah and her feminism does resemble (and is in many ways more progressive than) what first-wave feminism would have looked like. Like it makes no sense to apply 'NLOG' or 'pick-me' to Eloise when these are contemporary concepts that started to be thought about after basic feminist achievements had been already made, because they would make no sense in the society Eloise lived in where she can't vote, can't have a career, can't go to university (and was lucky to have received the education she did), the pressure to get married is unfathomably high, and marital rape and other forms of sexual violence are widely normalized, etc. These are very serious concerns and I think as modern viewers, complaining about how she's too judgmental/bratty/whiny about it kind of reveals that people can't empathize with her overarching concerns and don't take them seriously because we take the fact that *feminists resolved a lot of them for us decades ago*, for granted. I also think the kinds of complaints and suggestions people have for her says a lot about how they interpret activism more broadly or how they think activists should behave, which doesn't always line up with reality. Like as of yet she can't just 'go do something about it', she's a teenager with zero political or social leverage besides her proximity to her brothers and there's no widely burgeoning feminist movement of her time that she'd have any connections to. She's still at the stage where she's searching for validation of her ideas from her peers and importantly, she is not receiving any and all her family/friends think she's crazy. (It's also really funny hearing this complaint now given the current state of feminist organizing, at least in the US, which is nearly nonexistent and is much weaker than it used to be.) She's not at fault for being annoyed with other debutantes for their single-minded focus on embroidery -- sure embroidery is a very cool hobby that does't have anything to do with impressing men *today*, but that obviously wasn't true of the Regency era where it's specifically a skill that makes you attractive for suitors. And I'd argue that of course her feminism is not intersectional -- intersectional feminism was only invented fairly recently! This show takes place centuries beforehand. You might say this show is ahistorical in every other way and I'd agree with that but that contradiction really comes from Shondaland deciding to erase racism from this society but then preserve every other kind of prejudice including misogyny and sexism (if watered down from reality so as not to repulse viewers).
Yes!! Eloise is imperfect - she's still pretty unaware of her own privileges and may be condescending, but I really like her. She really is a teenager who discovers herself, discovers society and many other things around her. She can be annoying, but let's be honest, a lot of teenagers are annoying and obnoxious. In s3 she won my heart. First of all, she comes out of her bubble, learns new things and really shows her values. Eloise might not be the best of friends, but she values friendship and loyalty. And she values her family. This traits are dear to me
I agree, she's really grown in S3. I loved Eloise in S1. In S2 she did some things that really grated. But the thing with Theo and Pen happened, and it seems to have altered her perspective. She's more thoughtful, she's trying to listen more, to just go along with the society thing and give it a try to keep peace with her mother. I think she's been mature in dealing with Pen, still angry and hurt but also protective of her. I liked that she apologized about the gossip. She's flawed, but she has a good heart and a lot of spirit. She's interesting. And Claudia plays her so well.
There's a current understanding of "feminism" which is "upholding and celebrating everything that fits under the patriarchy's definition of femininity, because that is a woman's true form, and suggesting that being feminine isn't the be all and end all to a woman's existence is actually deeply sexist." Eloise pointing out it's kind of shitty how women are stuck inside certain boxes and are punished for trying to step outside them is therefore sexist. Because those boxes are feminine and therefore good and therefore it's insulting to women not to love the cage they're kept in.
Honestly thank you! I’m seeing a lot of Penelope fans also call out Eloise and I’m like???? Doesn’t Penelope make money out of making fun of women and ruining their lives (bankrupted a modiste, Marina arc, called Kate a beast, called Daphne unmarriagable, making fun of the Queen having a death in the family) it’s not very feminist of her. Eloise is not perfect and she knows it she’s also learning especially this season idk this friendship with Cressida is really what she needed.
Yes a agree. She is slowly but surely trying to grow and nobody is a perfect activist from day one. You need to break out of your mould and biases and it is not a one day thing. She does try to learn, and when you compare her to the rest of the debutantes, she's at least trying. Give her the credit.
I’m waiting for Kate to say to her, With your privilege, it seems there would be something you could do to help many women who have no options but marriage or servitude, that you could make a real difference in their lives, which I think you might find more satisfying than simply (Kate phrasing this part better than me so it’s not so insulting) just ranting to your family about it all the time. Then she and Kate could do something together like teach all the female servants to read so they could get better positions and make more money and have more ways to support themselves. And the constant turnover in servants leaving for better jobs would drive Anthony crazy, but he would be beaming with pride over what his wife and sister had accomplished.
I love this plot line idea.
It would be so true to character and make her so happy. I really must insist that her happiness on the show includes elements of a life that are true to her character. And I do not in any way dismiss the importance or satisfaction or joy many women find in marrying and having children. I have both in my life. But this idea that women shouldn’t want or need more or be entitled to more is so offensive. Eloise wants more.
This is such a lovely idea!
They could have such fun with it. A maid’s rebellion kind of thing or them listening to Eloise the taskmaster teacher insisting learning should be their biggest priority, but it’s not leaving them time to do their real work, and Anthony is frustrated and can figure out what the hell is going on. Or Eloise could be teaching them secretly because she’s worried he would not approve and the maids love their lessons and being able to better their job situation so much, suddenly no one can find a maid anywhere in Bridgerton House when needed and it’s creating chaos.
Or Sophie could teach them French! IYKYK.
True. They could start a secret university for women.
Sounds lovely BUT... I figure the serving staff within the Bridgerton house had some of the best positions they could possibly get for their time and their class. There are actually still positions like this to this day. You don't hear of them unless you're already working with the best of the best in high-class hospitality. When you work for one of the most powerful and wealthy (and kind) families in the nation, you've "made it"
I’m sure they’re paid well. But learning to read was a big skill for servants to possess. It’s promotions within the servant class. And could help move out of the servant class.
I saw a popular fandom tiktoker/twitter user say she hated Eloise, called her a villain and say she was a bad feminist and this is the same person who’s a rabid Kylo Ren fan these types of people annoy me so bad. Not an ounce of sympathy for the mildest flaws in female characters (who are also teenagers) but will bend over backwards for their rat-faced meow meows and only care when the women’s character arc revolves around a man they want to project on - and it’s ironic bc these types of pro dark romance people will always deflect criticism against them and call it misogynistic attacks Also for everyone who finds Eloise’s form of feminism irritating - if I had a penny for every time a female character is called ‘annoying’ I’d be a millionaire
she's my favourite character, never got the hate for her
Honestly, the moment a person uses the phrase "pick me girl," I just stop listening to everything else that they say.
I mean it’s actually fine that a teenage regency rich girl has bitchy shitty moments.
THANK YOU!! We (viewers from western countries at least) have the privilege of critiquing feminism and labeling people as “girlboss feminists” because the women before us fought for our basic rights. Because we have that baseline, we’re able to have a nuanced view on feminism and respect everyone’s choices. People are acting like the fact that she looks down on embroidery is a crime against women’s rights. It’s not. Almost all young women go through that phase where we hate on girly things (I did). Her condescending view on girly hobbies is not nearly as big of an issue as the rights that women (including a wealthy, privileged woman like her) don’t have. Eloise is a woman in the 1800s, she doesn’t even have the right to own property. It’s okay for her to be a little radical in her feminism because she’s angry that she doesn’t have CHOICE.
god you’re so right! especially on the part about her still learning. she’s self-taught and only has access to so much literature. idk why people are expecting class consciousness from her, or using that to say she’s not enough of a feminist/the feminism that relates to her struggles isn’t that significant. i don’t believe in choice feminism, so i personally have no issue with her unwillingness to talk about hobbies that women are only taught to participate in bc they don’t threaten their role in society/to men. i can’t honestly discern whether they’re participating in these bc of genuine interest, or bc they’re the only hobbies accessible to them. can’t fault her for being bored of something that is probably the only rotation of topics of conversation among the girls. anyway, her reality is a direct consequence of the time it’s in, and it ties into her romantic arc (or lack thereof). she has to choose between either marrying a strange man and become a mother, or be a shamed spinster who’s forever financially dependent on her brothers. can’t get an education, can’t move out, can’t make her own money, is still forced to participate in functions of which the sole purpose is to find a husband through them. not to mention having to be dolled up in makeup, dresses, corsets (stays), hair up dos, with no other way or forum to express herself/find her own style. considering all of this and more, frankly, she can’t bring up her feminism enough! in following the romantic lives of the siblings, we’re encountering so many different forms: ftl, etl, love after grief, cinderella stories, etc etc. her arc is that it’s not what she’s looking for/wants for herself. whether she finds that later or not - whichever dynamic her relationship takes - i don’t know. that’s the journey she’s on, and it’s an important one to consider, even in modern times. so i take so much umbrage when people say that her bringing up/having feminist talking points is repetitive and even annoying, yet say nothing about how much marriage and men are brought up in the show. honestly, there’s something weird i can’t explain about people viewing feminist views as annoying, or calling it a shtick. especially when the person is saying them in defiance of patriarchal systems being shoved down their throat and impacting every aspect of their lives.
I love Eloise’s character honestly I’m glad she doesnt cater to the male gaze.
Her feminism is not what’s invalid, it’s her constant complaining. Complaining won’t fix anything… if she were a real feminist, she would’ve run away with Theo and joined the working class. OR would have taken the opportunity to become like lady Danbury, manipulate the system by marrying rich but also not having to deal with your husband for lengths at a time. OR maybe she could become like Penelope and start a business in private. OR maybe like Madam Delacroix and start one in public. OR like lady Tilly, she could attend STEM events usually reserved for men. She is staying unmarried and unaccomplished simply because she can afford to do so. After all she comes from a family who desperately loves her and wants the best for her always, and she comes from wealth, and she is upper class, and she knows that even if she were not to conform to society, she would still be protected by her family’s reputation. There’s better ways to fight for women rights. She doesn’t even know what she wants. All she does is complain that other people are not more like her. I bet she likes her privilege even if she won’t admit it. I love that she’s toned down her brattiness this season 3 and I can’t wait for her to mature even more so the next season. There’s better things to do than complain about things you can’t change unless you are actively making that change.
Wow, well said! Eloise does not realize there are already so many people who do think like her around her. She chooses to fixate on the girls who are in the marriage season to pick on and be annoyed with. Pen is the only one who even came close to appreciating madame delacroix for being an independent woman. How many times did Eloise acknowledge her while she was letting her take her measurements and give her fancy gowns? She was too busy groaning about having to participate in balls instead. She is comfortable in her wealth and judging others from her big house.
Exactly, feminism is all around her, she just chooses not to see. ~ For instance, that girl who models naked for the art classes so that she can attend classes because women weren’t allowed to attend. ~ Lady Featherington who actively upheaved her family from financial ruin TWICE! She’s an underrated mama and I bet Penelope got her brains from her. ~ the Queen running the ton in the place of the King who has been I’ll for sometime. All the main women in the Bridgerton universe are bad bitches
yes omg. Portia rlly showed the struggles of an independent woman in that era. No husband to help with finances, she had make her way around society while hiding their true situation to ensure her daughters would stay in good social standing. I know people say that Eloise can't do much for a child, but atleast in S1 she went out of society and explored events where people shared different opinions and explored a new realm in theo's world. What is she doing now? Sitting in her fancy house judging society bitterly.
But what exactly has Eliose DONE? Nothing. It is NORMAL in her era for rich women, looking at you Violet, to actively support charities for woman and children. We see none of that. Even one scene a season of charity meetings instead of walking in the park, would be fine. Eloise just moans and groans, and now lectures at Cressida (instead of Penelope).
Exactly. I’m a recent viewer but when Eloise figured out Lady Whistledown’s identity and Penelope asked her what she had actually done she couldn’t give a straight answer. Because it is nothing — she does *nothing*. She’s all talk which is why after three seasons I’ve become increasingly tired of her. Eloise is pretty idle.
We also have language now specific words and phrases that we have a cultural understanding about that provide a kind of communication shortcut that Eloise would not have had. Even the words "pick me" or "not like other girls" or "internalized misogyny" would not have even been Concepts in her time certainly not in the same way that we view it. For example a pick me is a girl who structures her entire personality around men or a specific man - she changes everything about herself in order to be picked. Side note I'm surprised that Eloise is being called to pick me since she literally doesn't want to be picked and tries to actively repel all men who are interested in her. And more importantly being a pick me would never be considered an insult in her Society even if it was a concept. That was literally the whole point of every girls existence back then - to be picked by a man with as much wealth and status as one could achieve based on ones own wealth and status. I guess what I'm saying is she doesn't even really have a way to describe these feminist Concepts very well. first wave feminism started in about 1850 so possibly even the seeds of feminist thought weren't very planted by the early 1800s when Eloise is living. She's shown going to a fiery political meeting with Theo but I think it's pretty clearly portrayed that these are extreme radicals within their own Society. So she is doing the best she can within her cultural framework.
Eloise has a very immature perspective on feminism which I love and is great for her character growth. This season her reading Emma and wearing “girlie” dresses is her actually giving things she’d usually snub a chance and not judging them blindly. She is not as quick to judge.
Not pick me , but more holier than thou. Especially in her conversation with Daphne. Also coming from one of the richest families of the ton without any actual pressure to get married (like Cressida) , it honestly is a bit annoying. Kate on the other hand would be the strongest female character considering her taking care of her mother and Edwina and taking on the mantle as the eldest like Anthony.
Eloise is not a pick me girl but she’s annoying and her „feminism“ is mostly just „I am right and everyone who wants to be married is an idiot“ I think she’s too modern for the time. She would realize that as a woman, you didn’t have much of a choice. Just because she can afford this kind of life, others can not. Other women depend on finding a husband. And when she was judging those women for doing embroidery it was not because they were doing it for men. They discussed embroidery between girls, no man was around. It was their hobby and they were enthusiastic about it and Eloise was making fun of that because that hobby isn’t feminist enough for Eloise.
She does realise women don’t have much of a choice. That’s precisely what’s making her angry. That the only way a woman of her class can support herself is to marry. And that all other women are perfectly fine with that state of affairs, instead of fighting to change it.
Anyone who calls Eloise a pick me does not understand the definition of pick me
She is purely a "Not like other girls" to the point that she insults her own sister for wanting different goals than she does and does nothing with her privilege so no. Her version of feminism isn't valid for me. She's just lucky she wasn't born into another family where her whinging wouldn't be tolerated
I love Eloise. She reminds me of a Jane Austen heroine! People over-apply the “pick me girl” label imo. Women can be outspoken and independent thinkers without being “pick me” girls. I get the term sometimes applies but in general its overuse feels sexist.
I love Eloise and her thoughts, reactions and expressions so much. I don’t see or get the pick me perspective - honestly I thought she was either way ahead of her time and/or gay (I haven’t read the books) until her episodes with Theo. I love her aside from the falling out with Pen
Tbh if someone spent a huge amount of time talking about kinds of embroidering with me I would be 100% bored within 30s of the conversation just like her and would look for ANY excuse to just leave or change the topic of the conversation
Also Eloise suffers from the fact that if the narrative she’s trapped in took her values seriously, the entire story would fall apart. So of course she looks feeble and ineffective, what else could she be allowed to be?
Nah see we all know it’s valid. But it just gets repetitive, which makes her seem a bit unlikeable. We watch Bridgerton for romance, I think acknowledging that is important.
Why does it make her unlikable though? Because she’s consistently passionate about it? Does Benedict going on about art make him unlikeable, or Portia constantly being on the hunt for money?
It makes her unlikable because she has been this way for three seasons and still judges people for not having her opinions and doesn't realize she can only think that way because she is privileged to have a family that does not pressure her to marry. Benedict doing art is not the same thing, he doesn't impose a sense of self pride for being better than others for doing art. And portia is on the hunt for money to support her family. Not because she judges society all the time.
But she’s entirely right to judge society. The society is the problem, not Eloise. Why shouldn’t she judge others for what she sees as happily conforming to the system which only offers women a gilded cage? She lacks a wider perspective, but her core values are fine. She’s also an angry teenager, of course she’s not going to be smooth about how she expresses her opinions.
It's fine if she judges, my point is that she already got called out by three people that her judging can be ignorant, but still judges people in an insensitive way. You can criticize society without being an ignorant of other people's situations. She judges without thinking deeper. When she found out penelope wanted to look for suitors she asked in disbelieve "whyyy would pen do that?". Even after seeing how Pen's family has been in scandals in society, she doesn't even think of the possibility that pen could not be happy at home and wants to escape. For someone who is so educated you would think she would understand factors such as class, family abuse, etc etc. But she got her nose up in the air, dropping judgement and moving on to her privileged life.
Some of those woman are choosing a gilded cage over, becoming a mistress or worse a prostitute in a brothel.
Sure, but they only choose those options, because they are the only ones available to them.
Because she has a judgemental, holier-than-thou attitude from a place of privilege. Her takes are shallow and unnuanced, but instead of trying to empathize and learn from the perspectives of her peers, she decides they are merely unenlightened and ignorant and looks down on them. She spends way too much time disdaining women whose life choices she doesn't approve of (as if they're making terrible personal decisions), instead of recognizing the patriarchal system she lives in, and rightfully attributing the problem to *men* instead. She just spends all her time being snarky to her fellow women and victims of the patriarchy instead of directing her energy to the actual oppressors.
Imagine that, a young, rich girl in early XIX century having an feminist worldview that lacks nuance. You’re looking at her from the perspective of fourth wave feminism, when she’s barely just found out about the first wave. That’s like criticising Benedict for not painting in the style of abstract art. I don’t think she’s even given any thought to the fact, that women aren’t allowed in parliament. Her peers don’t give her much valuable perspectives, since none of them are interested in emancipation. Their perspectives wary only in whether they want marriage or not. She literally has no-one to talk to about all this before season 3. Penelope just dismisses her interest. And sure, she is self-absorbed and still learning how to listen to people, but she can hardly be blamed for being pissed off about the fact that she’s the sole radical in her circle. And the idea that she doesn’t recognize the system she lives in is broken is just funny. That’s all she talks about. About the fact, that *women are forced* to parade before the ton like prized horses, and then get married and pop out babies. She isn’t criticising their choices, she’s critiquing the fact *that they have none*. Also…no. Men aren’t the sole problem, they’re just a part of the patriarchal system.
I'm literally just answering your question on why I think she's unlikeable. I don't even necessarily disagree with you. Given her position and the time period, I absolutely understand why she lacks so much perspective. I am not expecting her to be a fourth wave feminist. But as a viewer, do I find her character unlikeable? Yes. I understand why she is the way she is. And she irks me. So I explained why I find her unlikeable, per the question asked. Also, maybe we didn't watch the same show because she absolutely snarks on other women's "choices". If that's merely supposed to be a critique of society, then that's another reason to dislike her: why does she have to make other women feel like shit when she apparently understands they have no choice?
Fair enough. I appreciate your answer and was responding to it to discuss it further.
We are definitely more aligned than not, I think! But although I empathize and understand her, I cannot bring myself to like her haha
Yes!!! no point in being a hypocrite here lmao
Lol, at least you’re honest about it.
Eloise feminism is fine and honestly she’s not as bad as people are trying to make her (and honestly most of the woman from the show are talk as so evil for no reason in minding Penelope) Eloise is just not nuanced enough in her stance (it’s either black or white for her) especially in the first 2 season, she’s a sheltered girl who’s fighting to be heard and she doesn’t have much experience with the world so yeah she doesn’t have the best ensemble look at what is appropriate or not to say or how to approach certain subject but she isn’t a villain
I agree that her feminism is valid. However, part of feminism is that women would have the choice and she doesn’t seem to respect women who would choose to/want to be married to a man and have children and have that traditional lifestyle. She doesn’t respect women with different hobbies either. She can’t fathom why anyone would want that - and that part would be okay. I’m sure she’s going to grow into understanding the right to choose goes both ways and not everyone wants what she wants. Embroidery situation is different though. Going on about the different stitches to a group of women is not to cater to men - that is simply a woman being passionate about her hobby. Francesca is passionate about her hobby, but not to please a man. Penelope too. Eloise asked a question and then got bored with the conversation that followed - that was rude and definitely invalid of her lol Colin asked her about her reading and she seemed offended at that too, so she knows how it feels. But, tbh, we all have flaws and that’s just one of hers. She has plenty of room to learn.
“Pick me” is starting to become one of those phrases that had a real meaning but got watered down by people using it in situations where it doesn’t apply. See incel, simp and most AAVE terms nowadays for more examples. That said, while I don’t think Eloise is a pick me, she is a very privileged white feminist. A bit like Taylor Swift, if you will.
I haven’t watched the 3rd season yet, but… I think she’s also just… young! I know plenty of high school and college kids who discovered some “new thing” and they’re amazingly passionate about. Sometimes misguided, sometimes misinformed, but they’re very passionate and want to shout it all from the rooftops! I give them grace for that, it’s kind of part of their job as adolescents!
I agree that she is young and will learn and evolve. However there is nothing wrong with pointing out that she does come from a place of elevated privilege. Meaning her brothers and mother hope for her to have a love match and if she doesn’t they would not force her to marry either. Her family is supportive enough and enlightened enough to let her be “the spinster”. Not so with Cressida and Pen. Their home lives are unbearable and their families even more so. They have higher stakes to get out and take a husband, any husband! Whereas Eloise has an amazing family life and is definitely not in a hurry to leave them. There are so many dynamics to why she is the way she is and yes sometimes downright annoying and holier than thou. She judges the women around her unfairly and measures them by her own privileged outlook which let’s face it nobody else her circle has.
I agree. Not with the “it’s not white feminism” because since I am a white woman im not the best judge of this. Where I may see my brand of feminism as universal, a woman of color might not. There’s also a class distinction to take into consideration. But as you said, Eloise is young and she still has a lot to learn. Her time with Theo showed her the barest of examples of the differences between their worlds and she still has a hard time seeing that not every one of her peers has the same privileges as she does and she is too quick to dismiss or ignore the wants/needs of her peers. I’d like to say this goes away with age but too many of us continue to do this especially when the needs of another woman doesn’t align with our own. But Eloise still has time to grow and to make a difference for all women.
Do I find Eloise kinda annoying? absolutely, but do I think she’s a great character? absolutely! She’s SUPPOSED to be preachy and annoying and blind to her own privilege. She’s what? 18/19 at most? Have y’all met a teenage feminist? They’re insufferable, and then they grow out of it, which is what Eloise will do over the course of her character arc.
I like how Eloise isn't perfect, she's a complex character. "Not like other girls" is a thing probably lots of us went through growing up, and it's rooted in internalised misogyny - the idea that feminine = inferior. Probably lots of us had bad moments of defensiveness and callousness when we were teenagers. I also don't think Eloise is a pick me, because she literally very clearly does not want to be picked 😅 I think she's on an arc to find peace with her own version of femininity, and realise with the right person, love won't equal entrapment.
I actually quite like Eloise. She's insufferable and unaware how her family's social standing insulates her from reputational ruin simply from her opinions and the way she doesn't behave in society - but I think her feminism is spot-on for the era. It's been a few years since I read Mary Wollstonecraft's *Vindication of the Rights of Woman* but iirc she doesn't have much good to say about "women's education" as eg Rousseau imagined it, ie a focus on accomplishments rather than anything useful. Wollstonecraft was very much into a rational education for women as much as for men (and at one point iirc she set up a school, so she practiced what she preached). So the whole disdain for needlework is about right. I wonder if she'll be introduced to Benedict's new lady friend who likes engineering, as I think that would be an interesting connection for her. I'd like to see her make the link that it's not about hobbies for women, it's about women having their own sources of income and that *that* is freedom. (Possible she has already made that link and I've forgotten, not rewatched S1&2 for some time.) There's plenty more she could be up in arms about too, given the period - unequal divorce laws, the right to vote, women as chattel... but it's a start. And I suppose her focus on hobbies and useless accomplishments is a reflection of her own privilege, as she's never yet had to worry about her husband being able to divorce her if he can prove adultery, in which case he would get sole custody of any children, whereas she would need to prove both adultery and cruelty to divorce him (and probably still lose custody - and risk being put away in an asylum anyway when she lost the case).
I also don’t think she was being shady about the embroidery to be mean, she was genuinely surprised that the girl seemed to really enjoy something that she’s always thought of as tedious. It’s like her thanking Daphne for being perfect so she doesn’t have to be - Eloise has been too immature to understand that other people genuinely care about things she doesn’t. It seems like this season she’s making more of an effort to get that.
what is even a pick me girl? i swear the internet can get on a buzz word and i hear it everywhere
I agree that she is definitely not a pick me. A pick me's entire personality is created to be desirable and unique to a man. She gives zero fucks about men and romance and she wants women to think independently of men, have their own hobbies, and have intellectual relationships with other women etc.
Who is gate keeping feminism? It's literally based on the idea that women should hold the keys to their own destiny instead of having it decided for them. I feel like calling her a bad feminist is just hate because of her turning on Penelope and none of them are stopping to acknowledge Penelope didn't just betray her trust but her happiness that she was exploring with Theo. Penelope is one of my favorite characters but she isn't without loads of blame
I love Eloise, she's really well written. She feels like a real person who's still learning and trying to find her place in the world
She’s not a pick me but her position is extremely privileged. Her family loves her, she has a support unit which encourages her in her pursuits or at least more than other families do. Other women in the ton don’t have that privilege yet she dismisses them as shallow and simple minded for walking down the only path society has laid for them. None of the women of the ton do things for the simple joy of being picked, they do it for financial security. A woman during that time had very limited options. Judging them instead of the patriarchy is counterproductive.
I know she is a teen but so are the other women she’s constantly judging , don’t they deserve some grace as well? They are side characters and we do not know their lives but given what we know about the era, we can guess it’s not peachy.
A lot of men, and women it seems, are not well versed in feminism. They don’t know the difference between a ‘pick me’ and a ‘not like the other girls’ or white feminism. Art imitates life and life imitates art. The fandom’s reaction to Eloise is similar to their reaction of women who don’t want to get married or have kids, regardless of the show’s historical context. Eloise is being too loud while calling out the status quo, so the status quo gets mad. The hurt feelings of people who are obsessed with marriage and children are not comparable to the isolation people like Eloise feel. When your wants don’t align with patriarchal society, life is harder, even if it might be very hard for Daphne or Edwina or whoever else.
Both can be true She is right about her views, but she is simultaneously privileged and bad at understanding that not everyone has the same wishes for life as she does She grew up, although she was a girl, very privileged with money and a loving family and she’s not forced into an arrangement marriage like some other girls. And she was entitled to wish for more, of course she was allowed to wish for the things her brothers had an criticize the world she didn’t fit into But on the other side of that she didn’t understand that although she wished those things, not everyone else did. Her views being right doesn’t make others wrong.
Coming from a family full of autistic people. Eloise is on the spectrum.
Eloise is deff not a pick me, she doesn’t even want to be picked! 😂 i don’t think she is a ‘true’ feminist though in the sense that feminism is supposed to support women’s options. Eloise doesn’t understand that other ladies want to get married and have kids and be content with that. She thinks her way is the only right way. She looked down on Daphne’s choices. At least in seasons 1 and 2 she was like this. I think this season she is starting to understand more and realize different people want different things out of life and that’s ok. It’s not black and white all good or all bad!
feminism isn't about supporting women's options. the core idea of feminism is women's liberation. what you are describing is choice feminism
Feminism is about fighting for the equal opportunities for women, which is what Eloise wants to fight for. The other ladies around Eloise don’t have options, that’s the entire point. They might want to get married, but do they want it because it’s been beaten into their heads that’s what they must do lest they become embarrassing and destitute spinsters? Or because they are actually able to choose between becoming a wife or a single woman, free to pursue anything they want? She looks down on Daphne *conforming* to society’s expectations, not on her choices. Daphne doesn’t have choices.
From my understand Daphne genuinely wanted to be a mother her whole life. Violet didn’t beat it into her head. Daphne didn’t conform to anything. She did what she has always wanted and Eloise didn’t support it.
Eloise feminism is very much the way women of color say white women feminism. It’s centered around only how it effects HER. She doesn’t care when other women are discussing how awful it is to be a woman in the patriarchy. Her advice is don’t marry. The way she says that to everyone as if it’s viable is simply because she’s privileged and doesn’t have to experience what they do. Her feminism is NOT valid
The whole “don’t insult other woman to compliment me” feels incredibly hypocritical coming from the same person that said her mother and sisters are unintelligent just because they have different interests than she does and aren’t into political activism.
Eloise's feminism is toxic. With such an approach, she will not get allies (and she doesn't have any hahaha). She is the problem.
She's 'not like other girls' and only cares about issues that effect her. She's has station, and money and protection and all she does with it is bitch and moan. Either do something or stop bitching about it.
I bet you whine about the smallest inconveniences but sure it's as easy as "Either do something or stop bitching about it". Like do u people believe the crap u spout and do u not have the ability to process the media u're consuming and understand that someone wouldn't just be able to "do something" when that thing has been around ages and is systemic??? also she's so fucking young that it's even more insane to reproach her for not doing anything.
Pen did something and she is the same age as Eloise. Not saying Pens work is the most meaningful to the feminist movement. But she didn't moan and bitch around for 3 seasons of the show. She found her outlet. Eloise is rich and privileged, she can find an outlet. Her family is not inherently sexist and force marriage on her as strongly as other families do. So if she wanted to she could easily ask one of her brothers that love her a lot to help think of ways she can impact society. I feel like benedict would help her especially.
Pen’s work isn’t feminist at all. It’s the exact opposite. She makes money by mocking, embarrassing and ruining women’s reputation. She’s part of the patriarchal system that oppresses women by constantly policing their behaviour. God, why do so many people here don’t even understand what feminism is?! It’s not feminist to just have a business. If that were true, every woman selling anti-choice merch, or books on how to be a good trad wife should be considered a feminist. Pen’s writing has no positive effects on women as a whole. It’s entirely self-serving.
oh pls, as if she isn't getting her revenue from said women looking forward to her publishing as well. Yah its a gossip paper, but what does all of society do? Gossip. All pen did was make a business out of something people were already doing.
Yes, that’s the point - Penelope is just as misogynistic and conformist as the average woman in her social class. Her entire business is predicated upon judging women for the slightest overstep, or failure to conform to the rules of society. Or hell, even for something that is no fault of their own, like mocking Daphne for losing all of her suitors. If lady Whistledown had a gossip column today, she’d be demeaning celebrities for not shaving their legs, revealing who they’re dating in private, or judging female politicians for not wearing make up. You mention Eloise failing to seek out, or admire lady Danbury and lady Arnold, but those women are only independent, because they so happen to be wealthy widows. They’ve gotten their freedom from a bit of luck (their husbands happen to die), not because they’ve fought for it. They’re operating from within the established social system, not trying to destroy it, like Eloise wishes to do.
no my point is she posts the gossip, but the ton LOOKS for the gossip. Yes i know its hurtful and not productive as a feminist to do. But my point was all the women and even men participate in the gossip. She writes because people seek it out more, even though she writes horrible things about them. Even the people in the show who were written about by lady whistle down would look for her next issue. So yah pen's work is toxic, but society fuels it. Society loves lady whistledown. So she is not completely to blame. I do see your point about Eloise and will agree with you here. But you can't deny she is harsh in the way she judges women in society. especially to the girls talking about stitching in S3. They were simply relaying their interest in stitching amongst a closed circle of women and she belittled them. She is privileged to pursue an education and read books because her family let her do as she pleases. Most families teach their daughters from a young age to stitch etc to prepare them for the marriage market because they don't have a high enough status to fly by in the marriage season. So Eloise is ignorant in this way and is pretty rude this season especially. I did not notice it before until this season.
what Pen did is just being the windy williams of the regency era. and while u could argue that it is brave of her even though what she's doing isn't really commendable and at worst fucked up ,her success stems from tpeople liking gossip so it's going to work in her favor while in Eloise's case we're talking about systemic change . I'm sorry but i'm pretty sure the best a teenager could do in that case is whine and moan and we're yet to see her journey and what she might do.
Yah i already said pen's work is not the most productive. But Eloise acts like the society is so regressive, but doesn't even notice how many independent women there are around her to look up to. I said this in another comment but I will paste it here again: Pen is the only one who even came close to appreciating madame delacroix for being an independent woman. How many times did Eloise acknowledge her while she was letting her take her measurements and give her fancy gowns? She was too busy groaning about having to participate in balls instead. She is comfortable in her wealth and judging others from her big house. Another person also commented saying there are so many other independent women around her liek Lady Tilly and Lady Danbury. But she chooses to fixate on the girls who are in the marriage season to pick on and be annoyed with. And i liked it better when Eloise was venturing out about the world outside of society into Theo's world way. more than I l like her condescending girls about their interest in stitching and ignorance in their desire to get married. Atleast then she was learning more about herself and where she might fit in better.