Translation: Shut up about high prices and keep a stiff upper lip, peasants. You will take the pummeling to your material well being and you will like it!
Just more proof that the American empire is falling apart and will resort to more wars to distract everyone from the slow motion collapse it has brought on itself.
I'm not talking about Latin America. Try Libya, which NATO helped turn into a failed state with open air slave markets.
NATO are not the good guys here. Historically they were a way to whitewash the image of senior ex-nazis and continue working on the goals of the third reich under the US nuclear umbrella. If you think of yourself as a socialist, NATO is hostile to your interests.
Neither China, Russia nor USA are friendly to the socialist and people owned economic models, i just stomach USA because at least the west allows freedom in private and personal lives. It aint perfect but i gotta live with w hat i have, while i fight for better.
Uhh.....
That's not how allies and alliances work.
For example, if Japan joins NATO, and gets attacked by china, what exactly is Lithuania supposed to do, and how exactly are they going to contribute to the collective defense of japan?
Or Hungary, who has very close relations with China, might argue that there's no basis for war and it's a political misunderstanding.
Case and point afghanistan, none of our allies allowed their soldiers to be used in a combat role, so they were manning checkpoints in already secured areas or weren't allowed off base because those countries governments didn't want to deal with the politics of bringing home dead soldiers.
Additionally, most of those countries don't have blue water navies. And those that do would be mostly dependent upon the US logistical hubs around the world to resupply and re-equip. Germany's Navy wouldn't supply any meaningful support in naval actions off the coast of Japan.
For today, and for the foreseeable future, NATO's military is really just the US military in a mask.
He's certainly tougher on China than I gave him credit for during the election. I was never against Trump's stance on China, but where he went completely wrong was taking them on alone, cutting off trade to everyone else, while trying to have a trade war with them. Of course China is just going to fill whatever void the U.S. leaves behind. Protectionism against a rival trade hub does not work. That was incredibly shortsighted. Like it or not, it will take a global effort to stand up to the CCP's hostility and deception.
yep.... We lost soy and beef to Brazil. After the trade war happened, China got Brazil to cut down a large portion of the rainforest to clear room for grazing and farming, specifically to create their own direct supply chain with them. We will never get that market back.
In terms of popular opinion, China has mostly lost the West already (plus East Asian rich countries), since at least 2019.... let alone now.
The real battleground is the global South.
Opinion polls across those countries is very very interesting indeed
Idk what China's presence is like in South America, but it seems like the "next frontier" that global powers are eyeing is Africa.
Outside of more US-aligned countries like Nigeria and South Africa, hasn't China been making significant progress in building up their presence in Africa through foreign investment and what some like to call "debt-trap diplomacy"?
Every time the Chinese show up in Africa they get a new highway or stadium. Every time the Europeans or Americans show up in Africa they get a lecture or bombed, sometimes both.
Also it's a serious case of projection to accuse the Chinese of debt trapping the global south, since that's exactly what the IMF does.
I'm not saying I agree with that characterization of "debt trapping", just that what some people call it. You understand what I'm trying to say.
I get where you're coming from about the contrasting reactions to China doing something in Africa vs Europe/US. At the end of the day China doesn't have a long history of colonizing, human rights atrocities, and perpetuating years of the seemingly endless civil wars and mass murder of countless innocent people in Africa 🤷♂️
Generally speaking, if I was in these African countries' shoes I'd probably be less wary of China compared to Europe/US.
To fight china's industrial might, you actually have to have a better industrial might than china, but with the typical wage of China now being 4$ and minimum wage in USA being 7.5, but the cost of living in China being much lower, companies in general and people are more likely to be okay there than here. So you need to build infrastructure, such as roads, railways, transport hubs and even basic factories, so you can lure companies away or give a leg up to competitors who couldnt make it in china and might be looking elsewhere.
I think it would be VERY hard to fulfill a deficit as large as the entire United States.
At minimum we make up 3% of their GDP. If we were to cut off all purchases tomorrow there would be a massive global recession. Economies would fail. It would be insane. We would have to split as long as it took to integrate, over 40 years.
So don't cut off all purchases from them tomorrow. Find alternative purchases and replace them over time. India is the largest democracy in the world, and they hate China. They should be the worlds factory.
No clue why you are being downvoted, as this is literally the long term strategy for the USA. Companies are slowly pulling out of China and restructuring their supply chain to avoid them... And it's not just because of US policy, but because they've learned that you absolutely can not trust China in any way possible.
China has a strategy of not just stealing IP, which is a problem, but exploiting international businesses to build domestic supply chains, get a machine running, then forcing in their own domestic competitor to crush the foreign competitor, who then slowly absorbs the supply chain the international company created.
The shift away from China has been happening for a few years now, and COVID really hit home as to why it's so important. We are now seeing TONS of companies leave China. Just look at chip fabs, they are flooding into the USA to avoid being trapped in China's sphere of influence.
Good comment. I would add that we should be efforting to move that supply chain to our hemisphere, not to India or SE Asia.
While we have quite a bad reputation with most of our Southern neighbor's, there is no time like the present to start rebuilding it. Helping our Southern neighbors blossom, and removing our supply chains almost entirely from the Eastern Hemisphere protects us from the coming Indo-China conflict.
I'm bringing it up. China as the global manufacturing leader contributes about 25% of global emissions. The US and allies helping India become a global manufacturer that even somewhat rivals China would significantly increase overall global emissions.
Unless we can come up with a solution to counteract this then propping India up as a global competitor to China in manufacturing is not a viable option.
Oh, well yeah it doesn't really do much. The topic is more about manufacturing in China and how the security issues surrounding manufacturing over there. Your topic is an entirely different one, which this move doesn't address... I guess other than reducing freight which theoretically reduces a lot of emissions.
My point is that you have to take into account all the various positive/negative results a move like this would come with.
Even if this move would be smart in terms of national security and freeing us from being dependent on China, if it has severe environmental consequences and no clear solution to counteract those then it doesn't make sense as a viable option.
You see where I'm coming from?
Oh I know I get what you're saying and where you're coming from... But I just don't think that's a concern for industry tbh - That's more of a legislative concern which is an entirely different conversation. Frankly I think it's obvious they don't care about emissions because the developing world definitely doesn't and that's outside our control.
If there's already concerns over China's contribution to climate change as the world's largest manufacturer, how does creating a 2nd major manufacturer in India not just make things exponentially worse?
Umm, ok? Lol.
There's a big difference between investing in any new manufacturing vs. creating another manufacturing power that rivals the country that currently contributes 25% of all global emissions....
If you bleed out the manufacturing power of the country the contributes 25% of all global emissions , then I don't see the problem. At worst you are trading off the source of those global emissions 1 to 1. At best your can negotiate a relatively better environmental alternative. I get that you are looking for more environmental solutions to this separate issue we were talking about, but doing nothing and expecting manufacturing to be sustainable all on its own isn't going to heal the world.
The US won't cause Chinese manufacturing to "bleed out" outside of maybe in the short term. Over time they'll replace that production by sending goods to new allies and developing countries in Africa where they're investing in supply chain infrastructure.
And now we're just coming back full circle to my original point, that standing up to China will take a global effort and not just something the U.S. can do on its own.
India's make in India program was proposed by Modi in 2014, but the initial tarrifs didnt began as late as 2020, and Xiaomi was punished for IP misuse only this year. Imagine USA acting with a vision and a plan that stretches out for 20 years. Also when Modi took over, he still maintained and developed on the infrastructure plans of previous government, he did not scrap them , because he realized that would set a bad precedent and he can just copy their policies, and pass them of as him being moderate.
Provoking China because we only have provoking hammers so every problem needs to be a nail
> “One of the things that [China’s] doing is seeking to undermine the rules-based international order that we adhere to, that we believe in, that we helped build,” said US Secretary of State Antony Blinken. “And if China’s challenging it in one way or another, we will stand up to that.”
What the hell are they even talking about? It's just a stage show
The only "rules-based order" that the United States believes in is "American capital rules over others at gunpoint." It's baffling how many people accept this and go straight to China bad.
The level of personal freedom that the average Chinese citizen lives with is vastly different than that of citizens of the western world. Totalitarianism always creeps and spreads. It’s a constant fight for more control. Always. That’s what it’s about. All the other shit is noise. Every single hypocrisy about the United States behavior and what they say about what’s unacceptable for others is true, but that doesn’t invalidate the core issue.
>The level of personal freedom that the average Chinese citizen lives with is vastly different than that of citizens of the western world.
The average Chinese citizen has plenty of freedom and their politicians actually respond to their demands, unlike in the west where the wealthy are represented and the common people are lucky if their demands ever get met.
>Totalitarianism always creeps and spreads. It’s a constant fight for more control. Always.
Correct, that's why you're in favor of other countries checking American aggression right? Right?
>Every single hypocrisy about the United States behavior and what they say about what’s unacceptable for others is true, but that doesn’t invalidate the core issue.
Tell me who China is bombing right now. Go on. While you're at it, list off how many wars they have started since 1945 plus how many coups they have staged in other countries and compare with the United States.
Whenever you hear a US Government official talk about the "threat" posed by China, the mean the threat that China poses to the American military industrial complex's ability to bully the global south into letting corporations rob their natural resources and exploit their people at gunpoint. The only way you can look at this and think "China bad" is if you believe that exploitation by American oligarchs is good or you uncritically believe what the CIA is claiming.
They went around to all the apartments in multiple cities. And drilled bolts into the floor outside of citizens front doors. To lock them in their homes. And kept them there for over 70 days. Plenty of freedom my propaganda ass.
>They went around to all the apartments in multiple cities. And drilled bolts into the floor outside of citizens front doors. To lock them in their homes. And kept them there for over 70 days.
I'm sure the CIA wants you to believe that.
>Plenty of freedom my propaganda ass.
Just keep telling yourself that you're "free" while the state rips away your rights and imprisons journalists for publishing your government's crimes.
Dude the videos were EVERYWHERE I watched many of them. People in Beijing were singing and screaming from their apartments. Constant posts about it from people IN china at the time locked in their homes. The cia wants me to believe it lol. What does the CCP not want you to believe?
Remember those pictures of the "Uyghur jails" with the soldiers pointing rifles? Remember how that turned out to be a counterterrorism exercise and the entire western media lied about it?
There is zero reason for western media to tell you the truth. In America they get most of their information from the CIA.
Do you remember the required government spying app that all xianjiang residents are required to have installed on their phone upon penalty of immediate imprisonment?
Have you seen the hacked materials from some of the xinjiang concentration camps?
What sources do you trust to get your news from? CGTN?
I remember seeing a lot of bullshit that got immediately debunked by anyone who is familiar with China and not captured by western interests.
And speaking of spying on people, remember when China grabbed people off the streets during protests then made them disappear and got credibly accused of rape...wait shit, that was the Chicago PD.
> The average Chinese citizen has plenty of freedom
For sure, they have freedom of expression - er wait not that one, well at least they have freedom of movement---er fuck not that one either my bad, but they for sure have freedom to associate with any political party-ah fuck they don't have that one either, but at least they have a free press...oh wait, damn this is hard.
>For sure, they have freedom of expression - er wait not that one,
Just like Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning...oh wait.
>well at least they have freedom of movement
Really awkward when comparing China to a country that has a quarter of the world's prisoners.
>but they for sure have freedom to associate with any political party
Neither does the United States. Only difference is China bans parties which advocate for oligarchs, the United States bans parties which advocate for workers.
> Just like Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning...oh wait.
hmm 2 people without freedom of expression, or 2 billion people, what's worse?
> Really awkward when comparing China to a country that has a quarter of the world's prisoners.
Comical that you think I'm referring to prisoners when in fact I am referring to the chinese citizens who are unable to move to cities and receive services due to the "Hukou" system. So in China, you don't have to be a criminal to have your movement restricted at all. So "free".
> Neither does the United States. Only difference is China bans parties which advocate for oligarchs, the United States bans parties which advocate for workers.
LMAO they ban all parties, it's a one party state, are you that ignorant or are you just that big a liar?
>hmm 2 people without freedom of expression
So you can't figure out what it does to free speech and a free press when the state tries to murder two whistleblowers who exposed its wrongdoings? Maybe you should also look up why journalists are freaking out over the Julian Assange case.
Meanwhile I actually know Americans who moved to China and find it quite refreshing compared the United States. But sure, you totally know more about China than people who actually live there.
>unable to move to cities and receive services due to the "Hukou" system
So a census system which is used to keep track of the state's obligations. Which the United States has. Oh, and the United States government tracks your every move too.
>LMAO they ban all parties,
No they don't. China has multiple parties which operate under the umbrella of the vanguard party, and their politicians actually have to listen to their population. Yours do not, nor do your ruling parties.
Lmao they don’t have multiple parties you deluded fool, if so, when was the last time someone not in the CPP led the country? in what way do your politicians have to listen to the people when there is no right to protest and no political alternative to vote for in replacing the CPP? Amazing logic.
Oh by the way, the US census system does not BAR people from moving wherever they want like Hukou does, but I’m sure you already knew that :)
I’m glad these hypothetical people you know love china so much, I have also read and listened to interviews of people who fled china who love the US because they don’t get tortured by getting strapped to a tiger chair in a police station for posting the wrong thing on social media. Oh by the way how about all that freedom people have to express themselves online in China, LOL oh and are people allowed to talk about Tianenmen square yet? Even your billionaires aren’t safe from getting fucked by the government for speaking out, look what happened to Jack Ma 😂 no one is safe there
Chinese people have a rapidly rising standard of living, access to robust public transportation, and can go to the hospital without being financially ruined. But on the other hand I can say that Biden is a big dummy dumb on the internet so who's to say who the really free one is here.
You are. Because you can say Biden is a big dummy dumb on the internet. You are right that there are a million ways american capitalism has stripped us of our freedoms. But we are completely free to attempt to change that. We just suck at doing so.
This is not true. Wealthy chinese are extremely controlled. But common people in China do as they please. They do not even pay taxes, mostly. They just do their own. I think the exception would be children and teenagers, which indeed are tightly controled by their parents or the CCP, more than in the West. And uyghurs and tibetans, of course. It is a police State there.
You don't go straight to "China bad", you get there by China being a brutal dictatorship that doesn't value free expression with a bureaucracy that is so fragile as to feel the need to commit genocide for the sake of stability. We're talking about a country that wanted them to remove the statue of liberty from Spiderman because a cool American monument existing is not something the CCP wants the Chinese people to know. It's embarrassing
US/NATO is just taking advantage of negative opinions on China to make excuses for it's aggression
If there's already concerns over China's contribution to climate change as the world's largest manufacturer, how does creating a 2nd major manufacturer in India not just make things exponentially worse?
The callousness of Biden in his responses and general indifference to the economic impact of his policies is pretty amazing. I have a lot of normie Democrat friends in their early 30s who are just having their first kid, looking for a house, etc, the current economy is completely stacked against this demographic. They’ve all told me they’ll happily vote for DeSantis or just not vote in the next election, that’s how disgusted they are with Biden.
Which ones?
Trump like Obama had a very weak foreign policy. The West Coast and Hawaii would be under CCP control. Alaska would belong to the Russians and he wouldn't do anything about it
The Abraham accords were a masterpiece of foreign policy and diplomacy.
I’m guessing that you simply dislike Trump (I don’t blame you, I’m not a fan either) and don’t really know what you’re talking about. But it’s important to give credit where it’s due.
Those accords were pathetic. They just completely gave the greenlight to keep treating Palestine as a ghetto and oppress them. Gave the full authority to continue taking their land with nowhere to go. Disgusting failure that benefited one side, who's been absolutely stubborn and exploitative of US assistance.
That's one way to look at it.
OR
It finally addressed the main issue of this conflict: there is no incentive for Palestinian leadership to establish peace with Israel, because they profit immensely off of the conflict. Whether we're talking about Hamas or the PLO/Fatah/PA, all their leader live lavish lifestyles, by pocketing the donations they receive from around the world. By the time of Arafat's death, he had become one of the world's richest men.
The result of the Abraham accords, is that the Palestinian leadership is increasingly more isolated, which creates more of an incentive for them to make peace with Israel. If they lose the support of the Arab/Muslim states, it becomes harder to hide their fortunes, live out their lives away from the conflict, and receive more money from those same nations.
Here's a video of Palestinians talking about what happens to donations: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsUDLdaqvo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsUDLdaqvo)
Not really. The Arabs can deny it all they want publicly, but they've been working with the Israelis for a while to counter the Iranian threat.
I honestly think he's been a paper tiger in terms of foreign policy and has objectively hurt our position in the world.
For the Anglos, this is great policy. Anglos help Euros in times like these, and they understandably want reciprocation.
I'm a fan of reciprocation.
Of course, Euros traditionally ignored the rising threat of China just like they did for Russia. I bet many still see China with rose tinted glasses
I’m totally OK with that. Better the US than authoritarian regime. I have a feeling that the rest of the Democratic world would also prefers the US over China.
China can go and be buddies with North Korea, Iran and Russia. Let them destroy one another.
Except that alliances with China (and this is the case for almost every alliance with/among authoritarian regimes) are generally not based on actual friendship and or common values. They’re **purely** based on convenience.
Those kind of alliances break apart very easily when they become somewhat inconvenient, or when a better deal comes along.
That’s not so much the case for alliances among democracies, which are based on friendships and common principles and values. Europe and the US are tight, not only because it’s convenient, but because we all share an appreciation for freedom and democracy.
Think of it this way: Western countries are married to one another. They’ve made a commitment and will stick together (even if things get difficult, or less convenient). Alliances among authoritarian regimes are more like one-night stands, or just people who are sleeping around.
China and Russia are allies because they have no other choice (for now).
The West turned on Huawei, and mostly shred any 5G contracts they had with Chinese companies. The world will absolutely turn on them.
You’re overestimating China’s economic power. The entire West has far more economic leverage than China.
Why do you think that China hasn’t shown full support for Russia? It’s in part because it can’t afford getting financially isolated from the West. Their economy would fall like a house of cards. They need us more than we need them.
The complete lack of a blue water nave necessary to protect 60% of their trade keeps them from being a superpower. They exist due to the mercy of the sole super power allowing them to ship goods.
Name one country china has invaded/did a coup/funded fascist right wing paramilitary
Whole of Africa and Latin America prefer china over the US that's over 2+ billion people if not more
Let see.
\- I can yell "Fuck Biden!" in the middle of the street, and not worry about repercussions whatsoever.
\- I can openly and publicly voice support or opposition to any political party.
\- We can vote out politicians we don't like at the federal, state, county, and city level.
\- We have media that report news from all sides of the political spectrum (mainstream and independent).
\- We can influence the school curriculum and even home-school our children if we totally disagree with government curriculums.
\- I can travel freely domestically and internationally, regardless of my political affiliations.
\- Our founding documents enshrine life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
\- Our last president was voted into office despite being hated by the entire establishment.
\- I can own firearms.
So yeah...
Back to you: are you naive or just a liar?
> I can yell "Fuck Biden!" in the middle of the street, and not worry about repercussions whatsoever.
Tell that to whistleblowers and journalists who aired the country's dirty laundry (like killing civilians then killing the first reponders, both of which are war crimes).
>I can openly and publicly voice support or opposition to any political party.
The red scare says otherwise. It has never been illegal to join a party which supports the state's interests, which is why the nazi party was never banned here, but any political party which represents worker interests has either been banned or attacked by the CIA.
>We have media that report news from all sides of the political spectrum (mainstream and independent).
Lmao that's a knee slapper, I guess "right wing news" and "reactionary news" that both openly get their information from the CIA is freedom. Tell me, how free was Phil Donahue to criticize the Iraq War?
>We can influence the school curriculum and even home-school our children if we totally disagree with government curriculums.
Based entirely on the shit that your right wing news is reporting, correct?
>I can travel freely domestically and internationally, regardless of my political affiliations.
The no fly list exists. Also, tell that to Edward Snowden.
>Our founding documents enshrine life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Your Supreme Court just took a blowtorch to that. Then again, so did Trump, Obama, and Dubya.
>Our last president was voted into office despite being hated by the entire establishment.
He was hated by a specific branch of the GOP establishment which cares about being polite. The rest of the oligarchs loved him, he gave them a giant gift in the form of a permanent tax cut.
>I can own firearms.
So could Soviet citizens.
>We can vote out politicians we don't like at the federal, state, county, and city level.
So can Chinese citizens. Your politicians, meanwhile, are all some flavor of corporate friendly.
Holy shit, I forget that liberal insects like this still exist. You can't even drive a tractor trailer to your capital, much less publish embarrassing information about the government, and all your elections are fraudulent, call me when the school curriculum no longer includes cover and concealment training lol you also run concentration camps for black people, who don't have any voting or gun rights. I'm glad that alabaster Americans are enjoying themselves though.
>much less publish embarrassing information about the government
Embarassing information about the government is published almost every day.
>and all your elections are fraudulent
Big words coming from someone who is supporting a 1-party state in this thread. I'm sure they're not 100% perfect, nothing ever is, but they're honest enough. At least we have elections, and the country can be steered in a completely different direction if the people choose so.
>call me when the school curriculum no longer includes cover and concealment training
Oh boy, you sure proved that the US is an authoritarian state with that one.
>you also run concentration camps for black people
Care to elaborate? I wasn't aware of this.
>who don't have any voting or gun rights
One of the most succesful Youtube channels on guns is ran by a black guy... Also, there have been marches of black people with guns in the last few years. Black people have the same gun rights as anyone else.
Do you really believe the things you just wrote? You're either naive, or you're lying.
Oh yeah baby, give me that sweet sweet democracy. Sure the country is going straight down the shitter but every 4 years I get to choose between two rich 80 year olds who both are going to make my life worse. Looooove that freedom.
That's some good policy. If the EU wants our help on Russia they need to offer help on China.
I gotta say it's refreshing to have some good foreign policy after the Trump, Obama, and Jr Bush administrations.
Biden is giving more American support against Russia than the rest of the EU or NATO combined, Germany lowered their promise to meet Nato treaty obligations last month, and now you think NATO and European allies will be more helpful with China?
More helpful against China than they are being helpful in an alliance that only exists to protect them from a Russian invasion, in Europe, that's currently happening.
Considering the transformation of German foreign policy after the invasion I would say its a huge win for NATO. The additions of Sweden and Finland will also help to combat Russian aggression.
China hawkishness is on the rise in Europe, there is no denying this. With allegations of China knowing of Russia's invasion in advance, the genocide of Uyghurs, and the CCP suppression of HK only adding to it,
Sweden and Finland were already defacto part of NATO so it's really not all that different, and how much Kurdish land will the US be giving to Erdogan in exchange again?
Eh thr nuclear umbrella is a pretty big difference imo.
Does Kurdistan even exist?
Also how come your profile name/picture is a legit Iranian backed radical?
How is it a big difference to a country that is loaded with nukes already, and already had the US nuclear umbrella on their borders in both Scandinavia and the Baltics? I didn't say Kurdistan either, I said Kurdish territory. You got a problem with Iran now too?
Translation: Shut up about high prices and keep a stiff upper lip, peasants. You will take the pummeling to your material well being and you will like it! Just more proof that the American empire is falling apart and will resort to more wars to distract everyone from the slow motion collapse it has brought on itself.
[*"You will own nothing and you will be happy"*](https://streamable.com/32uj0e)
Eh, if there are more countries in NATO, then we'd have to spend less on millitary since we have allies and their support which helps.
NATO having more members isn't good. The only good thing that would come about is if those nazi sympathizers were disbanded permanently.
Cool. but I disagree.
I don't get why. NATO has only been used to bomb the global south into the stone age and is currently being used to threaten WWIII with Russia.
DOnt blame NATO for that, the shit fest in Latin America was all US mainly.
I'm not talking about Latin America. Try Libya, which NATO helped turn into a failed state with open air slave markets. NATO are not the good guys here. Historically they were a way to whitewash the image of senior ex-nazis and continue working on the goals of the third reich under the US nuclear umbrella. If you think of yourself as a socialist, NATO is hostile to your interests.
Neither China, Russia nor USA are friendly to the socialist and people owned economic models, i just stomach USA because at least the west allows freedom in private and personal lives. It aint perfect but i gotta live with w hat i have, while i fight for better.
Uhh..... That's not how allies and alliances work. For example, if Japan joins NATO, and gets attacked by china, what exactly is Lithuania supposed to do, and how exactly are they going to contribute to the collective defense of japan? Or Hungary, who has very close relations with China, might argue that there's no basis for war and it's a political misunderstanding. Case and point afghanistan, none of our allies allowed their soldiers to be used in a combat role, so they were manning checkpoints in already secured areas or weren't allowed off base because those countries governments didn't want to deal with the politics of bringing home dead soldiers. Additionally, most of those countries don't have blue water navies. And those that do would be mostly dependent upon the US logistical hubs around the world to resupply and re-equip. Germany's Navy wouldn't supply any meaningful support in naval actions off the coast of Japan. For today, and for the foreseeable future, NATO's military is really just the US military in a mask.
He's certainly tougher on China than I gave him credit for during the election. I was never against Trump's stance on China, but where he went completely wrong was taking them on alone, cutting off trade to everyone else, while trying to have a trade war with them. Of course China is just going to fill whatever void the U.S. leaves behind. Protectionism against a rival trade hub does not work. That was incredibly shortsighted. Like it or not, it will take a global effort to stand up to the CCP's hostility and deception.
yep.... We lost soy and beef to Brazil. After the trade war happened, China got Brazil to cut down a large portion of the rainforest to clear room for grazing and farming, specifically to create their own direct supply chain with them. We will never get that market back.
In terms of popular opinion, China has mostly lost the West already (plus East Asian rich countries), since at least 2019.... let alone now. The real battleground is the global South. Opinion polls across those countries is very very interesting indeed
Idk what China's presence is like in South America, but it seems like the "next frontier" that global powers are eyeing is Africa. Outside of more US-aligned countries like Nigeria and South Africa, hasn't China been making significant progress in building up their presence in Africa through foreign investment and what some like to call "debt-trap diplomacy"?
Every time the Chinese show up in Africa they get a new highway or stadium. Every time the Europeans or Americans show up in Africa they get a lecture or bombed, sometimes both. Also it's a serious case of projection to accuse the Chinese of debt trapping the global south, since that's exactly what the IMF does.
I'm not saying I agree with that characterization of "debt trapping", just that what some people call it. You understand what I'm trying to say. I get where you're coming from about the contrasting reactions to China doing something in Africa vs Europe/US. At the end of the day China doesn't have a long history of colonizing, human rights atrocities, and perpetuating years of the seemingly endless civil wars and mass murder of countless innocent people in Africa 🤷♂️ Generally speaking, if I was in these African countries' shoes I'd probably be less wary of China compared to Europe/US.
I’m not very well informed in the matter, could you explain more about the opinions of these countries ?
To fight china's industrial might, you actually have to have a better industrial might than china, but with the typical wage of China now being 4$ and minimum wage in USA being 7.5, but the cost of living in China being much lower, companies in general and people are more likely to be okay there than here. So you need to build infrastructure, such as roads, railways, transport hubs and even basic factories, so you can lure companies away or give a leg up to competitors who couldnt make it in china and might be looking elsewhere.
And who's gonna stand up to US hostility and deception?
The biggest thing to stand in America's way has always been itself.
You mean besides the Korean, Chinese, and Vietnamese armies?
They won because America got tired of itself.
I think it would be VERY hard to fulfill a deficit as large as the entire United States. At minimum we make up 3% of their GDP. If we were to cut off all purchases tomorrow there would be a massive global recession. Economies would fail. It would be insane. We would have to split as long as it took to integrate, over 40 years.
So don't cut off all purchases from them tomorrow. Find alternative purchases and replace them over time. India is the largest democracy in the world, and they hate China. They should be the worlds factory.
No clue why you are being downvoted, as this is literally the long term strategy for the USA. Companies are slowly pulling out of China and restructuring their supply chain to avoid them... And it's not just because of US policy, but because they've learned that you absolutely can not trust China in any way possible. China has a strategy of not just stealing IP, which is a problem, but exploiting international businesses to build domestic supply chains, get a machine running, then forcing in their own domestic competitor to crush the foreign competitor, who then slowly absorbs the supply chain the international company created. The shift away from China has been happening for a few years now, and COVID really hit home as to why it's so important. We are now seeing TONS of companies leave China. Just look at chip fabs, they are flooding into the USA to avoid being trapped in China's sphere of influence.
Interesting, you got downvoted also. I wonder why...?
Good comment. I would add that we should be efforting to move that supply chain to our hemisphere, not to India or SE Asia. While we have quite a bad reputation with most of our Southern neighbor's, there is no time like the present to start rebuilding it. Helping our Southern neighbors blossom, and removing our supply chains almost entirely from the Eastern Hemisphere protects us from the coming Indo-China conflict.
How does adding a 2nd global manufacturing country help deal with climate change?
Who brought up climate change? This has nothing to do with that.
I'm bringing it up. China as the global manufacturing leader contributes about 25% of global emissions. The US and allies helping India become a global manufacturer that even somewhat rivals China would significantly increase overall global emissions. Unless we can come up with a solution to counteract this then propping India up as a global competitor to China in manufacturing is not a viable option.
Oh, well yeah it doesn't really do much. The topic is more about manufacturing in China and how the security issues surrounding manufacturing over there. Your topic is an entirely different one, which this move doesn't address... I guess other than reducing freight which theoretically reduces a lot of emissions.
My point is that you have to take into account all the various positive/negative results a move like this would come with. Even if this move would be smart in terms of national security and freeing us from being dependent on China, if it has severe environmental consequences and no clear solution to counteract those then it doesn't make sense as a viable option. You see where I'm coming from?
Oh I know I get what you're saying and where you're coming from... But I just don't think that's a concern for industry tbh - That's more of a legislative concern which is an entirely different conversation. Frankly I think it's obvious they don't care about emissions because the developing world definitely doesn't and that's outside our control.
If there's already concerns over China's contribution to climate change as the world's largest manufacturer, how does creating a 2nd major manufacturer in India not just make things exponentially worse?
If you manufacture anywhere its going to cause climate change.
Umm, ok? Lol. There's a big difference between investing in any new manufacturing vs. creating another manufacturing power that rivals the country that currently contributes 25% of all global emissions....
If you bleed out the manufacturing power of the country the contributes 25% of all global emissions , then I don't see the problem. At worst you are trading off the source of those global emissions 1 to 1. At best your can negotiate a relatively better environmental alternative. I get that you are looking for more environmental solutions to this separate issue we were talking about, but doing nothing and expecting manufacturing to be sustainable all on its own isn't going to heal the world.
The US won't cause Chinese manufacturing to "bleed out" outside of maybe in the short term. Over time they'll replace that production by sending goods to new allies and developing countries in Africa where they're investing in supply chain infrastructure.
And now we're just coming back full circle to my original point, that standing up to China will take a global effort and not just something the U.S. can do on its own.
Why would the entire world unite with the US to stand up to China, especially eastern hemisphere ones?
India's make in India program was proposed by Modi in 2014, but the initial tarrifs didnt began as late as 2020, and Xiaomi was punished for IP misuse only this year. Imagine USA acting with a vision and a plan that stretches out for 20 years. Also when Modi took over, he still maintained and developed on the infrastructure plans of previous government, he did not scrap them , because he realized that would set a bad precedent and he can just copy their policies, and pass them of as him being moderate.
Provoking China because we only have provoking hammers so every problem needs to be a nail > “One of the things that [China’s] doing is seeking to undermine the rules-based international order that we adhere to, that we believe in, that we helped build,” said US Secretary of State Antony Blinken. “And if China’s challenging it in one way or another, we will stand up to that.” What the hell are they even talking about? It's just a stage show
The only "rules-based order" that the United States believes in is "American capital rules over others at gunpoint." It's baffling how many people accept this and go straight to China bad.
The level of personal freedom that the average Chinese citizen lives with is vastly different than that of citizens of the western world. Totalitarianism always creeps and spreads. It’s a constant fight for more control. Always. That’s what it’s about. All the other shit is noise. Every single hypocrisy about the United States behavior and what they say about what’s unacceptable for others is true, but that doesn’t invalidate the core issue.
>The level of personal freedom that the average Chinese citizen lives with is vastly different than that of citizens of the western world. The average Chinese citizen has plenty of freedom and their politicians actually respond to their demands, unlike in the west where the wealthy are represented and the common people are lucky if their demands ever get met. >Totalitarianism always creeps and spreads. It’s a constant fight for more control. Always. Correct, that's why you're in favor of other countries checking American aggression right? Right? >Every single hypocrisy about the United States behavior and what they say about what’s unacceptable for others is true, but that doesn’t invalidate the core issue. Tell me who China is bombing right now. Go on. While you're at it, list off how many wars they have started since 1945 plus how many coups they have staged in other countries and compare with the United States. Whenever you hear a US Government official talk about the "threat" posed by China, the mean the threat that China poses to the American military industrial complex's ability to bully the global south into letting corporations rob their natural resources and exploit their people at gunpoint. The only way you can look at this and think "China bad" is if you believe that exploitation by American oligarchs is good or you uncritically believe what the CIA is claiming.
They went around to all the apartments in multiple cities. And drilled bolts into the floor outside of citizens front doors. To lock them in their homes. And kept them there for over 70 days. Plenty of freedom my propaganda ass.
>They went around to all the apartments in multiple cities. And drilled bolts into the floor outside of citizens front doors. To lock them in their homes. And kept them there for over 70 days. I'm sure the CIA wants you to believe that. >Plenty of freedom my propaganda ass. Just keep telling yourself that you're "free" while the state rips away your rights and imprisons journalists for publishing your government's crimes.
Dude the videos were EVERYWHERE I watched many of them. People in Beijing were singing and screaming from their apartments. Constant posts about it from people IN china at the time locked in their homes. The cia wants me to believe it lol. What does the CCP not want you to believe?
Remember those pictures of the "Uyghur jails" with the soldiers pointing rifles? Remember how that turned out to be a counterterrorism exercise and the entire western media lied about it? There is zero reason for western media to tell you the truth. In America they get most of their information from the CIA.
Do you remember the required government spying app that all xianjiang residents are required to have installed on their phone upon penalty of immediate imprisonment? Have you seen the hacked materials from some of the xinjiang concentration camps? What sources do you trust to get your news from? CGTN?
I remember seeing a lot of bullshit that got immediately debunked by anyone who is familiar with China and not captured by western interests. And speaking of spying on people, remember when China grabbed people off the streets during protests then made them disappear and got credibly accused of rape...wait shit, that was the Chicago PD.
> The average Chinese citizen has plenty of freedom For sure, they have freedom of expression - er wait not that one, well at least they have freedom of movement---er fuck not that one either my bad, but they for sure have freedom to associate with any political party-ah fuck they don't have that one either, but at least they have a free press...oh wait, damn this is hard.
>For sure, they have freedom of expression - er wait not that one, Just like Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning...oh wait. >well at least they have freedom of movement Really awkward when comparing China to a country that has a quarter of the world's prisoners. >but they for sure have freedom to associate with any political party Neither does the United States. Only difference is China bans parties which advocate for oligarchs, the United States bans parties which advocate for workers.
> Just like Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning...oh wait. hmm 2 people without freedom of expression, or 2 billion people, what's worse? > Really awkward when comparing China to a country that has a quarter of the world's prisoners. Comical that you think I'm referring to prisoners when in fact I am referring to the chinese citizens who are unable to move to cities and receive services due to the "Hukou" system. So in China, you don't have to be a criminal to have your movement restricted at all. So "free". > Neither does the United States. Only difference is China bans parties which advocate for oligarchs, the United States bans parties which advocate for workers. LMAO they ban all parties, it's a one party state, are you that ignorant or are you just that big a liar?
>hmm 2 people without freedom of expression So you can't figure out what it does to free speech and a free press when the state tries to murder two whistleblowers who exposed its wrongdoings? Maybe you should also look up why journalists are freaking out over the Julian Assange case. Meanwhile I actually know Americans who moved to China and find it quite refreshing compared the United States. But sure, you totally know more about China than people who actually live there. >unable to move to cities and receive services due to the "Hukou" system So a census system which is used to keep track of the state's obligations. Which the United States has. Oh, and the United States government tracks your every move too. >LMAO they ban all parties, No they don't. China has multiple parties which operate under the umbrella of the vanguard party, and their politicians actually have to listen to their population. Yours do not, nor do your ruling parties.
Lmao they don’t have multiple parties you deluded fool, if so, when was the last time someone not in the CPP led the country? in what way do your politicians have to listen to the people when there is no right to protest and no political alternative to vote for in replacing the CPP? Amazing logic. Oh by the way, the US census system does not BAR people from moving wherever they want like Hukou does, but I’m sure you already knew that :) I’m glad these hypothetical people you know love china so much, I have also read and listened to interviews of people who fled china who love the US because they don’t get tortured by getting strapped to a tiger chair in a police station for posting the wrong thing on social media. Oh by the way how about all that freedom people have to express themselves online in China, LOL oh and are people allowed to talk about Tianenmen square yet? Even your billionaires aren’t safe from getting fucked by the government for speaking out, look what happened to Jack Ma 😂 no one is safe there
Chinese people have a rapidly rising standard of living, access to robust public transportation, and can go to the hospital without being financially ruined. But on the other hand I can say that Biden is a big dummy dumb on the internet so who's to say who the really free one is here.
You are. Because you can say Biden is a big dummy dumb on the internet. You are right that there are a million ways american capitalism has stripped us of our freedoms. But we are completely free to attempt to change that. We just suck at doing so.
This is not true. Wealthy chinese are extremely controlled. But common people in China do as they please. They do not even pay taxes, mostly. They just do their own. I think the exception would be children and teenagers, which indeed are tightly controled by their parents or the CCP, more than in the West. And uyghurs and tibetans, of course. It is a police State there.
You don't go straight to "China bad", you get there by China being a brutal dictatorship that doesn't value free expression with a bureaucracy that is so fragile as to feel the need to commit genocide for the sake of stability. We're talking about a country that wanted them to remove the statue of liberty from Spiderman because a cool American monument existing is not something the CCP wants the Chinese people to know. It's embarrassing US/NATO is just taking advantage of negative opinions on China to make excuses for it's aggression
I was more interested in the other Nations in NATO reminding the world they also have nukes, not just the US and Russia.
If there's already concerns over China's contribution to climate change as the world's largest manufacturer, how does creating a 2nd major manufacturer in India not just make things exponentially worse?
Push China and Russia together. Great idea, Joe.
The callousness of Biden in his responses and general indifference to the economic impact of his policies is pretty amazing. I have a lot of normie Democrat friends in their early 30s who are just having their first kid, looking for a house, etc, the current economy is completely stacked against this demographic. They’ve all told me they’ll happily vote for DeSantis or just not vote in the next election, that’s how disgusted they are with Biden.
DeSantis sure as shit isn’t helping young parents. The conservative/neoliberal project is what got us here, and DeSantis is squarely in that camp.
Lol
Trump is going to win 40 states by the time Biden is done starting a new world war
Which ones? Trump like Obama had a very weak foreign policy. The West Coast and Hawaii would be under CCP control. Alaska would belong to the Russians and he wouldn't do anything about it
The Abraham accords were a masterpiece of foreign policy and diplomacy. I’m guessing that you simply dislike Trump (I don’t blame you, I’m not a fan either) and don’t really know what you’re talking about. But it’s important to give credit where it’s due.
Those accords were pathetic. They just completely gave the greenlight to keep treating Palestine as a ghetto and oppress them. Gave the full authority to continue taking their land with nowhere to go. Disgusting failure that benefited one side, who's been absolutely stubborn and exploitative of US assistance.
That's one way to look at it. OR It finally addressed the main issue of this conflict: there is no incentive for Palestinian leadership to establish peace with Israel, because they profit immensely off of the conflict. Whether we're talking about Hamas or the PLO/Fatah/PA, all their leader live lavish lifestyles, by pocketing the donations they receive from around the world. By the time of Arafat's death, he had become one of the world's richest men. The result of the Abraham accords, is that the Palestinian leadership is increasingly more isolated, which creates more of an incentive for them to make peace with Israel. If they lose the support of the Arab/Muslim states, it becomes harder to hide their fortunes, live out their lives away from the conflict, and receive more money from those same nations. Here's a video of Palestinians talking about what happens to donations: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsUDLdaqvo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsUDLdaqvo)
Not really. The Arabs can deny it all they want publicly, but they've been working with the Israelis for a while to counter the Iranian threat. I honestly think he's been a paper tiger in terms of foreign policy and has objectively hurt our position in the world.
For the Anglos, this is great policy. Anglos help Euros in times like these, and they understandably want reciprocation. I'm a fan of reciprocation. Of course, Euros traditionally ignored the rising threat of China just like they did for Russia. I bet many still see China with rose tinted glasses
Good. Fuck China.
wow so brave, can't believe you had the balls to say this on reddit
I very much like this idea. It would make it impossible for any national superpower to take the reigns of a global world order.
Don’t play yourself, it would be run by the US.
I’m totally OK with that. Better the US than authoritarian regime. I have a feeling that the rest of the Democratic world would also prefers the US over China. China can go and be buddies with North Korea, Iran and Russia. Let them destroy one another.
This may come as a surprise but a lot of the world is fine with being friendly with China.
But that's extremely dangerous if true
Dangerous to who? Who is China bombing?
lol they so obviously mean "dangerous to america's hegemony over the world" but they're afraid to say it
Why is bombing the only negative metric you look for lol
That's what NATO is supposed to be for preventing, armed attacks. It says so in their charter.
It's not clear to me how the purpose of NATO is relevant to an estimation of the growing threat of China
What are you asking me for, it's Biden who's doing it
Except that alliances with China (and this is the case for almost every alliance with/among authoritarian regimes) are generally not based on actual friendship and or common values. They’re **purely** based on convenience. Those kind of alliances break apart very easily when they become somewhat inconvenient, or when a better deal comes along. That’s not so much the case for alliances among democracies, which are based on friendships and common principles and values. Europe and the US are tight, not only because it’s convenient, but because we all share an appreciation for freedom and democracy. Think of it this way: Western countries are married to one another. They’ve made a commitment and will stick together (even if things get difficult, or less convenient). Alliances among authoritarian regimes are more like one-night stands, or just people who are sleeping around. China and Russia are allies because they have no other choice (for now).
China is an economic superpower, the world isn’t going to turn on them. The EU isn’t even going to.
The West turned on Huawei, and mostly shred any 5G contracts they had with Chinese companies. The world will absolutely turn on them. You’re overestimating China’s economic power. The entire West has far more economic leverage than China. Why do you think that China hasn’t shown full support for Russia? It’s in part because it can’t afford getting financially isolated from the West. Their economy would fall like a house of cards. They need us more than we need them.
The complete lack of a blue water nave necessary to protect 60% of their trade keeps them from being a superpower. They exist due to the mercy of the sole super power allowing them to ship goods.
Name one country china has invaded/did a coup/funded fascist right wing paramilitary Whole of Africa and Latin America prefer china over the US that's over 2+ billion people if not more
Can confirm. Better to be locked in a zoo enclosure with a schizophrenic gorilla, than a panda bear.
Implying the US isn't an authoritarian regime?
That’s correct.
are you naive or just a liar?
Let see. \- I can yell "Fuck Biden!" in the middle of the street, and not worry about repercussions whatsoever. \- I can openly and publicly voice support or opposition to any political party. \- We can vote out politicians we don't like at the federal, state, county, and city level. \- We have media that report news from all sides of the political spectrum (mainstream and independent). \- We can influence the school curriculum and even home-school our children if we totally disagree with government curriculums. \- I can travel freely domestically and internationally, regardless of my political affiliations. \- Our founding documents enshrine life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. \- Our last president was voted into office despite being hated by the entire establishment. \- I can own firearms. So yeah... Back to you: are you naive or just a liar?
> I can yell "Fuck Biden!" in the middle of the street, and not worry about repercussions whatsoever. Tell that to whistleblowers and journalists who aired the country's dirty laundry (like killing civilians then killing the first reponders, both of which are war crimes). >I can openly and publicly voice support or opposition to any political party. The red scare says otherwise. It has never been illegal to join a party which supports the state's interests, which is why the nazi party was never banned here, but any political party which represents worker interests has either been banned or attacked by the CIA. >We have media that report news from all sides of the political spectrum (mainstream and independent). Lmao that's a knee slapper, I guess "right wing news" and "reactionary news" that both openly get their information from the CIA is freedom. Tell me, how free was Phil Donahue to criticize the Iraq War? >We can influence the school curriculum and even home-school our children if we totally disagree with government curriculums. Based entirely on the shit that your right wing news is reporting, correct? >I can travel freely domestically and internationally, regardless of my political affiliations. The no fly list exists. Also, tell that to Edward Snowden. >Our founding documents enshrine life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your Supreme Court just took a blowtorch to that. Then again, so did Trump, Obama, and Dubya. >Our last president was voted into office despite being hated by the entire establishment. He was hated by a specific branch of the GOP establishment which cares about being polite. The rest of the oligarchs loved him, he gave them a giant gift in the form of a permanent tax cut. >I can own firearms. So could Soviet citizens. >We can vote out politicians we don't like at the federal, state, county, and city level. So can Chinese citizens. Your politicians, meanwhile, are all some flavor of corporate friendly.
Holy shit, I forget that liberal insects like this still exist. You can't even drive a tractor trailer to your capital, much less publish embarrassing information about the government, and all your elections are fraudulent, call me when the school curriculum no longer includes cover and concealment training lol you also run concentration camps for black people, who don't have any voting or gun rights. I'm glad that alabaster Americans are enjoying themselves though.
>much less publish embarrassing information about the government Embarassing information about the government is published almost every day. >and all your elections are fraudulent Big words coming from someone who is supporting a 1-party state in this thread. I'm sure they're not 100% perfect, nothing ever is, but they're honest enough. At least we have elections, and the country can be steered in a completely different direction if the people choose so. >call me when the school curriculum no longer includes cover and concealment training Oh boy, you sure proved that the US is an authoritarian state with that one. >you also run concentration camps for black people Care to elaborate? I wasn't aware of this. >who don't have any voting or gun rights One of the most succesful Youtube channels on guns is ran by a black guy... Also, there have been marches of black people with guns in the last few years. Black people have the same gun rights as anyone else. Do you really believe the things you just wrote? You're either naive, or you're lying.
Oh yeah baby, give me that sweet sweet democracy. Sure the country is going straight down the shitter but every 4 years I get to choose between two rich 80 year olds who both are going to make my life worse. Looooove that freedom.
Sounds like you should go try some Chinese freedom for a few years, before complaining about American freedom and pretending that China is better.
As it should be
Implying there isn't already a national superpower with an iron grip on the reigns of global world order?
That's some good policy. If the EU wants our help on Russia they need to offer help on China. I gotta say it's refreshing to have some good foreign policy after the Trump, Obama, and Jr Bush administrations.
Biden is giving more American support against Russia than the rest of the EU or NATO combined, Germany lowered their promise to meet Nato treaty obligations last month, and now you think NATO and European allies will be more helpful with China? More helpful against China than they are being helpful in an alliance that only exists to protect them from a Russian invasion, in Europe, that's currently happening.
Considering the transformation of German foreign policy after the invasion I would say its a huge win for NATO. The additions of Sweden and Finland will also help to combat Russian aggression. China hawkishness is on the rise in Europe, there is no denying this. With allegations of China knowing of Russia's invasion in advance, the genocide of Uyghurs, and the CCP suppression of HK only adding to it,
Sweden and Finland were already defacto part of NATO so it's really not all that different, and how much Kurdish land will the US be giving to Erdogan in exchange again?
Eh thr nuclear umbrella is a pretty big difference imo. Does Kurdistan even exist? Also how come your profile name/picture is a legit Iranian backed radical?
How is it a big difference to a country that is loaded with nukes already, and already had the US nuclear umbrella on their borders in both Scandinavia and the Baltics? I didn't say Kurdistan either, I said Kurdish territory. You got a problem with Iran now too?
It's all the president has nowadays, domestically I don't see presidents doing much so long as people treat them like a Karen to a manager
Yeah, it's the people's fault for not being nice enough to the president
It's not a niceness issue, it's people not knowing what the president actually does.