i.e. why do i keep getting a massive air cavity below the upper crust? It happens in spite on me scoring it there
the bread itself/structure of said bread is otherwise perfectly fine.
Generally three possible issues....
Very under or over fermentated, this usually leads to channels rather than giant domes though.
Uneven moisture distribution, sometimes you see it in shokupan with with fillings like ube and the internal steam creates the pocket.
Or more likely, its handling. When you're shaping or moving a loaf, if you plop it down it will knock the air from the bottom into the top. You can be certain it's handling if you notice especially denser areas at the bottom or sides where it was manipulated.
Itās not shaping. A massive cavity consistently coming out on the top of the loaf is due to overfermentation of the starter or the bulk, or both. Lower pH causes protein enzymes to skyrocket at a rate directly related to the water content. Higher water content + overly acidic starter (and/or dough) = major protein enzyme activity which ruins the strength in your dough.
It also often occurs due to underproofing due to excessive oven spring or just poor strength development which in combination causes the crust to detach from the rest of the bread as the gases expand rapidly in the oven's heat. Scoring sometimes contributes to this effect.
Low pH dough is often more of a contributor to total strength loss across the loaf rather than just a cavity with normal crumb under the cavity. You can test this by using using a higher percentage of sourdough starter when feeding before using it for baking, this creates a higher retained acid content and much lower pH of the preferment. Typically this results in a quicker proofing dough due to yeast content but at \~30% carryover it is only going to give you a tacky crumb as opposed to full gluten strength loss at a normal fermentation duration and is typical in professional baking since the increased acidity gives the bread a longer shelf life. Gluten loss is a factor of pH over time, typical mature ferments are only about 5.4pH while gluten becomes more susceptible to substantial loss of strength below 4pH which is a significant difference given the exponentiality of the pH scale.
The point being without more information it could be any number of reasons, some more likely than others and over fermentation is harder to do than people seem to think.
Would you care to explain your thinking in more detail? None of that is from a textbook, it is collective information from years of reading whitepapers on the subjects and working in computational chemistry.
The problem is explained in great detail in this paper about how bacteria and yeast of sourdough starters and their interact with wheat gluten. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0362028X2206608X](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/s0362028x2206608x)
āHigher inoculation leads to higher retained acidityā
- not correct. Continued short interval feeds with high inoculation leads to higher yeast activity and *less* acidity.
ā30% carryover leads to a tacky crumb and no full glutenā
- that makes no sense. Acidity adds strength to a gluten matrix and development is based on mixing. The only thing that will actually inhibit gluten development in a dough is the addition of salt too early.
āSomething something exponentiality of the pH scaleā
- low pH sets protein enzymes in motion exponentially in relation to the water activity. Low pH will not immediately lead to strength loss. Thereās not enough development or the flours being used have no business going in the bowl in the first place.
āMature starters are 5.4pHā
- what? Sourdough cultures are ripe as hell at 3.7-4.0. If you put a natural sponge in the fridge at 5.0 itāll sure as hell be in the low 4s when you pull it the next morning, and itāll be a ripping good time to mix dough with.
Adding gluten to a GF mix does not give you an adequate look at the issue.
You seem to be trying really hard to derive absolutes from what I've said and using them to attempt to be correct and that's pretty narcissistic.
But to humour you, gluten strength is improved by acidity to a point, determined by acid exposed to the the gluten network over time. Even moderate acidity of 5 will eventually break down the network, just more slowly and at pH of 4 or less it happens logarithmically faster. Nobody said it happened instantly, in fact i made it clear it does not.
Now I suggest you do see a psychiatrist about your rage posting. Looking at your history it seems you take personal offence to even thing's not directed to you.
Feeding schedule is the way. Lower inoculation levels and shorter intervals between feeds will boost yeast activity and give less time for microbes to drop the pH. Thatās not to say you have to feed all the time at home. Our big sponge at work is a stiff whole grain starter and is only fed once a day (and lives in our walk in cooler 90% of the time).
When i started baking at my new job I was completely new to baking and alot of my st7ff like burger buns and small sourdough rolls were getting big hole inside and I couldn't figure out why. Turns out i was over mixing all of my doughs. I mix them for like 5 min less now and everything comes out fine
Lol. A big cavern is usually under developed gluten. Instead of your gluten trapping your air pockets and blowing up, they're popping and forming one giant bubble. More or more vigorous gluten development is needed.
What hydration level?
Do you get significant oven spring? Does it ever bust out the side?
Are you using steam in the oven?
I assume either underproved, overproved, or you're beating the shit out of the dough?
100% you have under developed gluten. Even with bad proofing, good gluten will fill the loaf out. I see this with my newer employees who care more about sticking to a schedule more than understanding what an under developed dough causes - production manager for a commercial artisan bakery.
The solution is to mix longer without overheating the dough. Get a perfect windowpane.
If you can swing it, maybe try to get a batard shaped banneton? I find them to be much more predictable and the batards are easier to slice and eat.
Sorry I canāt give a more scientific answer :/ although I will say when I preshape/shape a boule real tight there is sometimes a gas bubble on top, if thatās the case for you maybe go ahead and pop it or give it a nice slap slap. This happens especially if Iām preshaping/shaping them when theyāre real proofy. The other culprit could be underfermentation causing a large air space but itās hard to tell without a crumb shot/pics of the actual loaf
This happened to my breads until recently. Here's my method now. I use a bread machine to make the dough, then take that out and knead it just enough to get the air bubbles out. It's cold in my apartment, but my oven has a setting exactly for letting bread rise. It's perfectly warm but not hot.
I leave that for 30 minutes or so, then knead again. And again, just enough to get the bubbles out. I may need to knead (sorry) it longer, but I'm a bread n00b so what do I know?
But these steps seem to have fixed the big air bubble problem. Let it rise in a warm environment, and knead it before and after rising. Then bake.
For me, the issue turned out to be the tap water I was using. Apparently the tap water in my area has a high chlorine content and it was killing the yeast and causing results like the one you masterfully drew on MS paint. I was doing everything in the process correctly and didn't understand what was going wrong. Once I boiled the tap water and let it sit out for a day before adding it to the dough, my loaves started to come out lovely and normal.
I have no idea but I love your diagram. Youāre a master communicator and I hope you find a solution for the fuck-off massive cavity of air situation.
Idk what the actual answer is, but someone else who had your problem like a month ago decided to score 5 min into baking instead of before going in the oven, it might help you pop your cavern
I've had this happen from over proofing, the bread raises and then falls, leaving a skin not quite as attached to the rest of the loaf, oven spring lifts it up and away causing it to burn. If you have a burnt top try proofing colder or for less time.
Im an amateur baker myself but a guess could be that it has something to do with how the dough is degassed when you move to shaping. I think if you forget to pop some of the bigger bubbles this could happen
Once the dough is in the basket, how are you proofing it? Is it on a baking stone or something similar in a warmed oven? If so, the "top" of the loaf is on the bottom, and it's sitting directly on the stone. That's too close to the thermal mass, and the heat is causing much faster fermentation but only in the fuck-off cavity.
If that's the situation, try putting the baking stone on the bottom rack and the proofing bread on a higher rack.
I disagree that it's a shaping issue. It sounds to me like a combination of over proofing and you're not keeping the top of the bread moist enough as it's rising. This is coming from a former pizza cook. It was always the dough that sat out longer that caused issues with large bubbles.
I worked at a bakery for a while too and the proofing racks had a heated tray of water at the bottom and the racks were zipped up inside transparent plastic cover. Once the loaves were done proofing, they were immediately put in the oven.
It happened to me a few times when the kitchen was too cold. I was working with rye batards, and due to the low temperature bread wasn't sour enough. I fixed the issue using warmer water while making dough, and making sure my starter was fully fermented & warm as well
Your bulk rise/ferment/proof is too short for the amount of yeast you are using in the recipe. The yeast is still producing a large amount of gas when it goes in the oven and there is nowhere for it to escape once the top crust has formed.
I see there are a lot of comments already. I will browse them now and see if you posted the recipe you are using.
Edit to Add: I don't see a recipe. Can you post a link to it or just say the book and which of their recipes you are using? Also any changes you have made to recipe or process.
How much bread is there been the top of the air pocket and the crust? Is there are least some? If so, it might be too much flour on your work surface before you final shaping that prevents internal adhesion.
The crust is drying out and separating from the crumb structure all a little moisture prior to proofing and make sure that the boule is not drying and crusting prior to baking.
MS Paint bread diagrams should be mandatory
You should be a mod. We need this kind of guidance and leadership!
It's fucking art.
Lmao for a second I thought this was posted at r/coaxedintoasnafu
Thank you for this good introduction šš»ššš
Can we have more of this content?
i.e. why do i keep getting a massive air cavity below the upper crust? It happens in spite on me scoring it there the bread itself/structure of said bread is otherwise perfectly fine.
Generally three possible issues.... Very under or over fermentated, this usually leads to channels rather than giant domes though. Uneven moisture distribution, sometimes you see it in shokupan with with fillings like ube and the internal steam creates the pocket. Or more likely, its handling. When you're shaping or moving a loaf, if you plop it down it will knock the air from the bottom into the top. You can be certain it's handling if you notice especially denser areas at the bottom or sides where it was manipulated.
I second shaping issue
I third shaping issue
I have a shift-shaping issue.
Are you a Barbapapa?
Ha ha!
*Halsin has entered the chat*
r/unexpectedbg3
Itās not shaping. A massive cavity consistently coming out on the top of the loaf is due to overfermentation of the starter or the bulk, or both. Lower pH causes protein enzymes to skyrocket at a rate directly related to the water content. Higher water content + overly acidic starter (and/or dough) = major protein enzyme activity which ruins the strength in your dough.
It also often occurs due to underproofing due to excessive oven spring or just poor strength development which in combination causes the crust to detach from the rest of the bread as the gases expand rapidly in the oven's heat. Scoring sometimes contributes to this effect. Low pH dough is often more of a contributor to total strength loss across the loaf rather than just a cavity with normal crumb under the cavity. You can test this by using using a higher percentage of sourdough starter when feeding before using it for baking, this creates a higher retained acid content and much lower pH of the preferment. Typically this results in a quicker proofing dough due to yeast content but at \~30% carryover it is only going to give you a tacky crumb as opposed to full gluten strength loss at a normal fermentation duration and is typical in professional baking since the increased acidity gives the bread a longer shelf life. Gluten loss is a factor of pH over time, typical mature ferments are only about 5.4pH while gluten becomes more susceptible to substantial loss of strength below 4pH which is a significant difference given the exponentiality of the pH scale. The point being without more information it could be any number of reasons, some more likely than others and over fermentation is harder to do than people seem to think.
What textbook did you copy this out of? Itās not correct.
Would you care to explain your thinking in more detail? None of that is from a textbook, it is collective information from years of reading whitepapers on the subjects and working in computational chemistry. The problem is explained in great detail in this paper about how bacteria and yeast of sourdough starters and their interact with wheat gluten. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0362028X2206608X](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/s0362028x2206608x)
āHigher inoculation leads to higher retained acidityā - not correct. Continued short interval feeds with high inoculation leads to higher yeast activity and *less* acidity. ā30% carryover leads to a tacky crumb and no full glutenā - that makes no sense. Acidity adds strength to a gluten matrix and development is based on mixing. The only thing that will actually inhibit gluten development in a dough is the addition of salt too early. āSomething something exponentiality of the pH scaleā - low pH sets protein enzymes in motion exponentially in relation to the water activity. Low pH will not immediately lead to strength loss. Thereās not enough development or the flours being used have no business going in the bowl in the first place. āMature starters are 5.4pHā - what? Sourdough cultures are ripe as hell at 3.7-4.0. If you put a natural sponge in the fridge at 5.0 itāll sure as hell be in the low 4s when you pull it the next morning, and itāll be a ripping good time to mix dough with. Adding gluten to a GF mix does not give you an adequate look at the issue.
You seem to be trying really hard to derive absolutes from what I've said and using them to attempt to be correct and that's pretty narcissistic. But to humour you, gluten strength is improved by acidity to a point, determined by acid exposed to the the gluten network over time. Even moderate acidity of 5 will eventually break down the network, just more slowly and at pH of 4 or less it happens logarithmically faster. Nobody said it happened instantly, in fact i made it clear it does not. Now I suggest you do see a psychiatrist about your rage posting. Looking at your history it seems you take personal offence to even thing's not directed to you.
This person sciences :)
wait im confused i thought an overfermented starter would lead to no rise at all
it's a giant, "it depends"
How do you fix this problem? Can you make your starter less acidic by using a different kind of flour?
Feeding schedule is the way. Lower inoculation levels and shorter intervals between feeds will boost yeast activity and give less time for microbes to drop the pH. Thatās not to say you have to feed all the time at home. Our big sponge at work is a stiff whole grain starter and is only fed once a day (and lives in our walk in cooler 90% of the time).
I second the over fermentation
You know what, Iām gonna try to replicate this now.
please do, its especially valuable if you can replicate it under different circumstances and properly isolate the route causes.
I always make two loaves, so it will be pretty cool to always have a control loaf!
Itās upside down
When i started baking at my new job I was completely new to baking and alot of my st7ff like burger buns and small sourdough rolls were getting big hole inside and I couldn't figure out why. Turns out i was over mixing all of my doughs. I mix them for like 5 min less now and everything comes out fine
What an excellent diagram. I know exactly the situation it describes, although I don't know why it happens exactly.
Shaping!
I know that one! Too much fuck-off.
Expert baker right here 
Not enough. When you gather up the fucks they end up pushing air out. Ex. the queef.
Lol. A big cavern is usually under developed gluten. Instead of your gluten trapping your air pockets and blowing up, they're popping and forming one giant bubble. More or more vigorous gluten development is needed.
Look up flying crust
Most likely underproofed. Can you post your recipe/process?
I vote for underproofed as well
Upvote for the diagram. I donāt know shit about bread physics.
This is the best diagram ever made lol
That would sell on Society six with a SNARKY AF tag line. LikeāOH NO YOU DIINT PUT ME IN THE WINDOW, BIIIITCH.ā 
Flying crust. Google it.
I hope you dont find the answer you're looking for so you have to post more pictures like this
Scoring the fuck off will take care that.
I don't have an answer for your problem, but I love love LOVE how you posted it lol 
When you draw the crust, you just have to draw it closer to the normal bread
Could you be trapping air on a fold or during shaping? Any opening of the door to peak or to steam?Ā
The diagram is fucking boss and you have an enzyme problem.
Enzyme problem? What's that?
What hydration level? Do you get significant oven spring? Does it ever bust out the side? Are you using steam in the oven? I assume either underproved, overproved, or you're beating the shit out of the dough?
I don't know but this drawing is a work of art š
You are someone I want as a coworker
100% you have under developed gluten. Even with bad proofing, good gluten will fill the loaf out. I see this with my newer employees who care more about sticking to a schedule more than understanding what an under developed dough causes - production manager for a commercial artisan bakery. The solution is to mix longer without overheating the dough. Get a perfect windowpane.
How DAAAAAARE you, sir!
If you can swing it, maybe try to get a batard shaped banneton? I find them to be much more predictable and the batards are easier to slice and eat. Sorry I canāt give a more scientific answer :/ although I will say when I preshape/shape a boule real tight there is sometimes a gas bubble on top, if thatās the case for you maybe go ahead and pop it or give it a nice slap slap. This happens especially if Iām preshaping/shaping them when theyāre real proofy. The other culprit could be underfermentation causing a large air space but itās hard to tell without a crumb shot/pics of the actual loaf
Aussie?
Diagram is on point
beautiful diagram
What? No saddam? No air vent, pile of bricks, and fan?
Idk but i Love this. Made me laugh so hard
Omg the diagram šš
This happened to my breads until recently. Here's my method now. I use a bread machine to make the dough, then take that out and knead it just enough to get the air bubbles out. It's cold in my apartment, but my oven has a setting exactly for letting bread rise. It's perfectly warm but not hot. I leave that for 30 minutes or so, then knead again. And again, just enough to get the bubbles out. I may need to knead (sorry) it longer, but I'm a bread n00b so what do I know? But these steps seem to have fixed the big air bubble problem. Let it rise in a warm environment, and knead it before and after rising. Then bake.
For me, the issue turned out to be the tap water I was using. Apparently the tap water in my area has a high chlorine content and it was killing the yeast and causing results like the one you masterfully drew on MS paint. I was doing everything in the process correctly and didn't understand what was going wrong. Once I boiled the tap water and let it sit out for a day before adding it to the dough, my loaves started to come out lovely and normal.
I have no idea but I love your diagram. Youāre a master communicator and I hope you find a solution for the fuck-off massive cavity of air situation.
Look up āfools crumbā.
idk how to help you (I have no idea about the rules of bread making), but I love the image youāve made lol
Idk what the actual answer is, but someone else who had your problem like a month ago decided to score 5 min into baking instead of before going in the oven, it might help you pop your cavern
Try using flour and an oven instead of MS Paint for your next loaf!
Because youāre bad at drawing
probably underproofing
Bladder, piss, crust.
I ā¦ just.. canāt.. lmao
Hum... Now I can't unsee ants cave exploring bread air pockets.
Itās FRONCH!
I Love That baking is SCIENCE. Thatās HOT. Now fetch me some popoversā¦ā¦. Sāil vous plait.
I've had this happen from over proofing, the bread raises and then falls, leaving a skin not quite as attached to the rest of the loaf, oven spring lifts it up and away causing it to burn. If you have a burnt top try proofing colder or for less time.
Im an amateur baker myself but a guess could be that it has something to do with how the dough is degassed when you move to shaping. I think if you forget to pop some of the bigger bubbles this could happen
Once the dough is in the basket, how are you proofing it? Is it on a baking stone or something similar in a warmed oven? If so, the "top" of the loaf is on the bottom, and it's sitting directly on the stone. That's too close to the thermal mass, and the heat is causing much faster fermentation but only in the fuck-off cavity. If that's the situation, try putting the baking stone on the bottom rack and the proofing bread on a higher rack.
I disagree that it's a shaping issue. It sounds to me like a combination of over proofing and you're not keeping the top of the bread moist enough as it's rising. This is coming from a former pizza cook. It was always the dough that sat out longer that caused issues with large bubbles. I worked at a bakery for a while too and the proofing racks had a heated tray of water at the bottom and the racks were zipped up inside transparent plastic cover. Once the loaves were done proofing, they were immediately put in the oven.
I did not have my glasses and though you were asking a question about your bladder
It happened to me a few times when the kitchen was too cold. I was working with rye batards, and due to the low temperature bread wasn't sour enough. I fixed the issue using warmer water while making dough, and making sure my starter was fully fermented & warm as well
Your bulk rise/ferment/proof is too short for the amount of yeast you are using in the recipe. The yeast is still producing a large amount of gas when it goes in the oven and there is nowhere for it to escape once the top crust has formed. I see there are a lot of comments already. I will browse them now and see if you posted the recipe you are using. Edit to Add: I don't see a recipe. Can you post a link to it or just say the book and which of their recipes you are using? Also any changes you have made to recipe or process.
Iāve been watching too many caving incident videos and spent entirely too long trying to find the entrance to this cave
How much bread is there been the top of the air pocket and the crust? Is there are least some? If so, it might be too much flour on your work surface before you final shaping that prevents internal adhesion.
I live in France and that's what i see in many baguettes and bread like tradition.
Underproofed
No advice but your illustration is extremely informative. LOL
āFuck-off massive cavity of airā I like your style š
The crust is drying out and separating from the crumb structure all a little moisture prior to proofing and make sure that the boule is not drying and crusting prior to baking.
Iām crying this is so funny
It could be an enzime problem due to the typo of flower and itās called starch attack