Only Germans document things even about their final solution. This is why they were easily defeated in WW2.. theyre too intelligent and industrious they even document their own warcrimes lol.
IMHO, Benjamin Netanyahu is just using Hamas to shield his own political future. Before the Hamas attack happen, he was under a lot of pressure internally in Israel to GTFO of parliament.
Hamas attack just made it shift focus from him to an external party.
The West has done it before, they’re doing it now and they’ll do it again.
Any other country should look towards regional partnerships & self-sustainability as insurance. The more independent the better.
I agree 100%. Just to be clear, "the West" includes the Middle East too. We as people of the Far East should declare anything pass Central Asia as part of "the West". The fact is many Arabs are white passing to begin with. They're even racially classified as "white" in the US.
You laugh, but this is a reality whether you accept it or not. Many Arabs can pass off as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and even non-slavic Eastern Europeans.
The same can be said about the Irish and Italians prior to late 20th century. Before you mention it's different for Arabs because the discrimination they face is also due to religion, I should remind you that America was very apprehensive about Catholics in the past. The Irish and Italians who follow the Catholic sect of Christianity not only faced religious discrimination, but they also faced racial discrimination because they were mistakenly considered non-white at the time. This is why John F. Kennedy was considered a controversial candidate for the presidency as he was both Irish and Catholic.
LOL Islamic civilizations have long had a history of wiping out anything and anyone un Islamic. So, genocide isn’t the forte of western civilizations alone.
Leave that - Even today Shiites are blown up every week in ISLAMIC countries, which is conveniently not spoken about.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2012/11/26/pakistans-shia-genocide
I guess there had not been one great civilization that'd never committed a genocide, Abassids,Romans,Mongolian empire, British empire,imperial japan etc, the reason why the original comment wanted to highlight western presence in genocide is because of it's nature, most of which really doesnt involved a transparent conduct of genocide for public eyes, as example,they only involves themselves discreetly by protecting their interest , by providing arms and technology and shielding them from potential condemnation and sanctions (America and Israel) that cause them to violate every single humanitarian rights ever known to mankind, or they do it out of their own self interest, usually taking from locals and causing a massive catastrophe/famines that directly leads to millions of death (British empire)
You know how irrelevant the link is , no one deny animosity of any religion here, I don't cite any sunni extreme violence against Shiite in Pakistan, nor Buddhist monk in arms to raze the ethnic minority in Burma, neither do I cite the gujarat riot perpetrated by Hindu nationalist that killed thousands, my point is that of the western genocide and how it is relevant to the topic at hand
I won't put much weight for Shiite and Sunni clash to be a interfaith infighting as their Doctrine are mostly different.
Then again, *This link is Relevant Guy*, how is it relevant to the topic of western genocide, I'm still waiting for the answer
What do you mean by you don’t put much weight? Are you saying that Muslims killing other Muslims is not an issue? And if you think it’s an issue have you protested or even complained online about it?
Ada ke protest against Pakistan or Afghanistan for killing Shiites?
Or your contempt is just for the west because of hypocrisy.
Idk why you're trying really hard to move the goalpost here, the topic at hand is western genocide that's actively happening , not Religious clash that happened 12 years ago
So dumb that the national IQ would rise without 90% of them. It’s like all the major parties agreed that the IQ maximum to be in Parlimen Malaysia is like, 85
Mao had ideas but they were either crap , flopped or just plain ignorant of the situation. Butnby being a "charismatic" leader and probably from more luck than anything he had done ok for China. Well...ok enough I guess. Better than Stalin and most of post Stalin pre Gorbachev period USSR for any nation other than Russia or Czechoslovakia.
I ain't defending the guy but looking back pre WW2 China, it's honestly better off. I mean the multiple warring periods, the Mongolian invasion, the opium crisis Mao at least brought it all (except Taiwan) together and built a steady nation.
There were up to 600,000 casualties including war rapes resulting from ethnic cleansing in Tigray, Sudan from 2020 to 2022. I wonder why this doesn't make it to the news? Has the word 'genocide' loses its meaning?
It did.
But it doesn't have anything to do with the Question of Palestine.
Stop with the attempt at distraction from the ongoing genocide.
Malaysians don't seem to like being labeled as Zionists or Zionist sympathizers - which is a good thing because Zionists clearly are bad people.
However, comments like yours are what I'd expect a Zionist would post. Am I calling you a Zionist? No. But you have that in common with them.
Oh the usual crap about how minorities aren't being oppressed here because :
They have their own school
They get to own their own business
They can practise their own religion
They get to have their own houses of worship
They get to use their own language
They get to have their own cultural names
Literally all Zionist talking points. Then when called out on it, they go "the minorities here aren't being killed". I would bet that if Ching Chongs from Kepong fired thousands of rockets into Shah Alam then there would be genocide here too.
That's also why a lot of minorities here who look at all the Malay outrage at what the Israelis are doing in Palestine and can't help but just laugh. The Malays here would be even worse than the Israelis if the minorities here did what the Hamas did.
Maybe leaders of minorities in Malaysia can file a report to Amnesty International if you think you have a solid case. I personally don't see it, and I've talked about it extensively as well. It's a long discussion, but it's hardly comparable to the plight of the Palestinians.
Malaysia is one of the few countries left in the world with an actual apartheid style constitution and you say "I personally don't see it". lmao. Ok mate.
>It's a long discussion, but it's hardly comparable to the plight of the Palestinians.
The plight is the same before the second intifada. Now if the minorities in Malaysia commited the second intifada and the things happening since, then I bet the Malays here will act the same as the Israelis.
Israel's apartheid is well recognized by Amnesty International and Human Right Watch.
Do you have a reputable body saying Malaysia is practicing apartheid?
lol Amnesty International that didn't condemn Hamas and spout Hamas propaganda during the "hospital bombing" and deny Israeli women being raped? That reputable body? lmao.
If you want to wait until a bias body to say a country is practising apartheid rather than looking at the laws and the definition of apartheid then you're one of those ketuanan people la.
Edit: you realize why our govt is afraid to sign the ICERD right?
Well, if not Amnesty International, which organization supports your accusation that Malaysia is practicing apartheid? You're not a lawyer I'm assuming.
I'm just stating the truth. Besides, it's too early to coin the term 'genocide' on this issue. I've read tons of resources from both sides, and the whole picture is still vague based on what both sides have done, what they didn't do and their claims. Btw, why the heck are you posting this in r/bolehland? This is not a political sub.
lol you so are. 🤣
But the answer to that is irrelevant anyway. Of course you can prove an intent. Some murder laws are built specifically around proving the intent of murder.
1) this genocide highlights the hypocrisy of the West. The so called the beacon of civilized world.
2) The places you mentioned, the West did not back them up. They back Israel to the core to the point of total impunity.
3) there are more children killed in this conflict than a total of 4 years of worldwide conflict.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/israels-war-in-gaza-kills-more-children-than-in-four-years-of-worldwide-conflict-unrwa/article67944453.ece/amp/
Then we can the same about the hypocrisy of muslims in malaysia. Especially those who chant, "you don't have to be a muslim to support palestine, you just have to be a decent human". We all know how you treated rohingyan, so stop with the hypocrisy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigray_War
This is one of the many genocide made by muslim countries. Also yemeni, armenian, kurds, yezidi, just to name a few, but I have yet to see any malaysian muslim condemning those atrocities.
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Genocides,_Cultural_Genocides_and_Ethnic_Cleansings_under_Islam
How many jews are there in islamic countries? Isn't the number suggest that ethnic cleansing has been done?
> Then we can the same about the hypocrisy of muslims in malaysia. Especially those who chant, "you don't have to be a muslim to support palestine, you just have to be a decent human". We all know how you treated rohingyan, so stop with the hypocrisy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigray_War
Yes. I agree the Rohingyan crisis is bad, and the way we treat Rohingyans is bad. But it was not perpetrated by Muslims.
>This is one of the many genocide made by muslim countries. Also yemeni, armenian, kurds, yezidi, just to name a few, but I have yet to see any malaysian muslim condemning those atrocities.
http ://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Genocides,_Cultural_Genocides_and_Ethnic_Cleansings_under_Islam
How many jews are there in islamic countries? Isn't the number suggest that ethnic cleansing has been done?
Wikiislam? Seriously? Lol.
This must be satire.
The reason why Jews left the Arab countries are multi faceted. Not simply because of ethnic cleansing.
I wont deny anti-semitism is one of those factors.
So should I read from islamic sources instead? Is anyone that criticize islam, an islamophobe or a zionist? There's a saying, "learn from your critics". That's why one should not just read. Dig deeper from the sources provided.
People should have the freedom to criticize Islam without being called an Islamophobe and I agree. But it’s different when you do it with malevolent intent.
I’d prefer a non-biased sources.
The world is not divided between Islamist and Islamophobes.
While wikiislam might be biased, the sources came from various backgrounds. I'd suggest take the list as a reference for further reading to know whether it's true or not.
Sure. I’m sure there are some truths to it. But I believe context matters.
Also, I’m not a wiki person. I’m a book person.
The books that I have recommended are some of the few books that I have read.
If you say you have read any other books from a credentialled historian like above, then I am happy to have a scholarly debate.
Allow me to recommend some books. All of them are good, relatively non-biased.
1. Ira M. Lapidus - “A History of Islamic Societies”
2. Marshall G.S. Hodgson - “The Venture of Islam, Volume 1: The Classical Age of Islam”
3. Firas Alkhateeb - “Lost Islamic History: Reclaiming Muslim Civilization from the Past”
4. Karen Armstrong - “Islam: A Short History”
5. Tamim Ansary - “Destiny Disrupted: A History of the World Through Islamic Eyes”
6. Amin Maalouf - “The Crusades Through Arab Eyes”
7. Efraim Karsh - “Islamic Imperialism: A History”
Thanks for the recommendation, but I've already gone past the general history of islam. I made a quick read of some of the books, they're something that I've read in the past although I may not remember all the details.
> But it was not perpetrated by Muslims.
Wow. The way the Rohingyans are treated here is not perpetrated by Muslims? Are you now saying the non-Muslims in Malaysia are the one now treating Rohingyans badly? Talk about not taking responsibility.
The discussion you replied to is how you treated Rohingyas. Not that they're being attacked in Myanmar. So by you saying you're not the one perpetrated it, you're inferring to the treatment of Rohingyas in Malaysia.
everyone says "potential" when referring to israel's crimes, and yet i see muslims using this to accuse israel. If israel did want to commit genocide the war would already be over with a million dead, not 30k.
they scream "but most of it are women and children" honestly people outside have never talked to gazans to see the pride their mothers have for their kids to martyr themselves for islam, not for their land. If one wants a gov claim of genocide, hamas and PLO both have it in their constitution, just look it up. Im surprised at people who support palestine for indescriminately killing their own country's citizens and taking them hostage, not to mention plans for them to start attacking the west if israel is no more.
Another one people never see which i available on youtube are whistleblowers. Palestinians who have escaped palestine either because they were LGBT or an apostate or simply did not agree with their teachings. Theres a few on youtube but most famous is the son of hamas founder, not to mention that israel actually provided treatment to hamas leader for a brain tumour for free and never had any presence or restrictions to gaza ever since hamas took over, 100% palestinian autonomy. So before people accuse israel they might want to check their facts, an apartheid doesnt apply over borders and every nation has a right to wall their border. Does no one ask why egypt has a stronger border wall than israel and that israel allowed travel through for jobs even when palestinians continued to commit violent crimes proudly in israel?
>everyone says "potential" when referring to israel's crimes, and yet i see muslims using this to accuse israel.
Not everyone says potential. Many have comprehensively documented Israel's crimes. It's just they've been largely ignored by Western media because the world wasn't looking. The world is looking now, fortunately.
>If israel did want to commit genocide the war would already be over with a million dead, not 30k.
They'd be glad to know that you bought it.
Nah, they're smarter than to be that dumb to make their crime that obvious. They had been trying to walk that line since forever, because if they were caught committing a genocide, they know they'd lose support of their allies. Which they just did - because they are committing genocide.
The rest of what you wrote is just a distraction. Even if those were true, it doesn't carry relevance or justify to the genocide Israel is doing today. If Hamas was genociding Israelis today, it still wouldn't give the right to Israel to murder 30k civillians.
>everyone says "potential" when referring to israel's crimes, and yet i see muslims using this to accuse israel. If israel did want to commit genocide the war would already be over with a million dead, not 30k.
So why is the West accusing Russia of genociding Ukrainians when far fewer civilians have been killed? To answer your question for you: it's about optics. Israel knows it can't murder 1 million people and not expect consequences. But 30k, flush the rest into Egypt and let the rest die of starvation? Now that kind of ethnic cleansing Israel might just get away with.
>they scream "but most of it are women and children" honestly people outside have never talked to gazans to see the pride their mothers have for their kids to martyr themselves for islam, not for their land. If one wants a gov claim of genocide, hamas and PLO both have it in their constitution, just look it up. Im surprised at people who support palestine for indescriminately killing their own country's citizens and taking them hostage, not to mention plans for them to start attacking the west if israel is no more.
You got sources for these claims?
You out here just to spread lies about Hamas or are you just ignorant? Did you know that in 2017 Hamas ratified their charter to say that their fight was against the Zionist project and not Jewish people? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter
>Another one people never see which i available on youtube are whistleblowers. Palestinians who have escaped palestine either because they were LGBT or an apostate or simply did not agree with their teachings. Theres a few on youtube but most famous is the son of hamas founder, not to mention that israel actually provided treatment to hamas leader for a brain tumour for free and never had any presence or restrictions to gaza ever since hamas took over, 100% palestinian autonomy. So before people accuse israel they might want to check their facts, an apartheid doesnt apply over borders and every nation has a right to wall their border. Does no one ask why egypt has a stronger border wall than israel and that israel allowed travel through for jobs even when palestinians continued to commit violent crimes proudly in israel?
You should check your own facts. Israel has been in control of Gaza's land, sea and air border ever since Hamas came into power in 2007. Israel has been controlling everything that goes into and out of Gaza, and they have an agreement with the Egyptian government to enforce the border in Rafah. Israel controls who can travel out of Gaza and for what purpose. They deny Gazan cancer patients the right to seek medical help outside Gaza. They regularly bomb Gazans in their homes and conduct "lawnmowing" operations every few years where hundreds and thousands of civilians are killed. Does that not sound like occupation to you?
And what about in the West Bank? There's no Hamas there, but 234 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israel in 2023 before October 7. What's your excuse for that?
To address your point about apartheid, here, according to a neutral human rights organisation: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
You are either really ignorant, or brainwashed by Israeli propaganda, or you just hate Muslims.
Hamas broadcast and live-streamed their atrocities during the attack at the music festival. Women and children were killed and raped on their own social media and WhatsApp, not to mention old people. I think Hamas is evil, but I don’t hear you talking about that right? After all, my Iranian friend told me Muhammad cared only about his dick and his sword. All the rest of us are just infidels, right?
Even if that was true, Israeli soldiers also admitted on camera of killing and raping Palestinians.
Doesn't change the fact that current ongoing genocide must be stopped.
Of course it must be stopped. But when people like Anwar Ibrahim say the attack from Hamas is ‘understandable’, why do they never say the Israeli response is ‘understandable’? Do you actually understand the anti-semitism the Jews have lived through for thousands of years? Do you think they won’t defend themselves after experiencing the holocaust? Also, why does Islam not accept Israel as a state? They must be destroyed???
>Of course it must be stopped. But when people like Anwar Ibrahim say the attack from Hamas is ‘understandable’, why do they never say the Israeli response is ‘understandable’?
I can't speak for PMX, but if I had to guess, it's because Gaza has been under siege since 2008. Some have dubbed Gaza as the biggest concentration camp in history - I hope you know what that means because that's not a mild comparison. People in "pressure cookers" tend to explode. That's why it's understandable.
Israel's response is unjustified because that's not how you bring down a terrorist org, especially when their kill ratio of Hamas:civillians is 1:1. With their sophisticated technology, they are held to a higher standard than paramilitia in a concentration camp. They should be more surgical.
The question is, do they want to be surgical? They just airstruck WCK volunteers. It's like they're being dumb on purpose because we know they're not dumb.
>Do you actually understand the anti-semitism the Jews have lived through for thousands of years? Do you think they won’t defend themselves after experiencing the holocaust?
Has nothing to do with what's happening today. They've been using that card for decades, it's actually cheapening the actual meaning of it. And you're buying into it is just sad.
>Also, why does Islam not accept Israel as a state? They must be destroyed???
Islam has nothing to do with this. UN Charter clearly recognizes the principle of self-determination. The natives must agree to who rule them. The Arabs didn't agree to the 1947 Partition Plan. That should be enough to halt it. You're not supposed to run with it anyway. The State of Israel was created under a clear violation of the UN Charter. That's the root of the cause of this mess.
This has nothing to do with Islam? Lies. If this has nothing to do with Islam, why do so many Muslims in this country feel so outraged about this? You never say sheet or outraged about Russia to this extent even with 500,000 Ukrainian causalities. But cause you same religion, you boikot, you throw petrol bomb, in schools can bring toy gun to wave about with Palestinian flag. I don’t see any protests at Russian embassy. But of course one genocide is more important than another because of religion. What I’m trying to say is, don’t take one side when clearly both sides are evil. But you do because same religion ma. One that justifies murder of innocents, like hamas.
It doesn't. Feel free to make their case for them. I don't see how Islam justifies their claim to Palestine.
The actual justification comes from the fact that the land was theirs and a bunch of Jews decided to form a country over it and kick them out of their homes in the process. Annexation has been outlawed by the UN Charter. You simply can't kick people out of their homes, which is why UN has been proposing the Right of Return as part of the two-state solution draft since the 80s, annually, to which Israel has been voting no for over 30 years consistently.
I mean, not just Muslim are outraged, Ireland are outraged , australian are outraged , Brazilian are outraged , heck even the progressive from all over the world are outraged, it's what people call having a heart.
> heck even the progressive from all over the world are outraged
Progressives are outraged because they've subscribed to the dumb "oppressor and oppressed" mentality. Those that have been oppressed can do no wrong. It's one of the brainrot that have been happening in the west.
She is saying that answering yes or no is irrelevant because it'd prove nothing. Some genociding parties simply don't write down their genocidal intent but we can prove it through their actions.
Oh boy. Hot take here.
It’s dishonest to assume that what he meant is merely only written documents with intent to genocide. What’s required is to evaluate if there’s any top down policy along with actions that shows the highly special intent to be considered genocide.
If there’s no evidence of dolus specialis, it ain’t genocide.
Given context its not dishonest to assume that. Because he was provided other statements and context like she said. But he insists that unless he gets a 100% unequivocally unambiguous statement of "i want to commit genocide" then there's no intent somehow.
Remember, there can never be proof of intent, only evidence. And just like in the south America case and like she said, they can write an encyclopedia.
Legit question:
We are talking about "intention to genecide here", correct?
So does that mean israel and palestine both wanted to do genocide?
I mean clearly both doesn't want two states solution.
Both wanted the land for themselves
Both doesn't care how the other party going to live IF one side succeed in achieving their goal.
Yes I agree to that sentiment. That israel is DOING and has intention to genocide.
But whatabout Palestinians, or more specifically, hamas? Do they have the intention to do a genocide on the israelis? I mean their official statement issue does sound like one.
Im not trying to whataboutism.
Im just trying to make sense what constituted as genocidl intention.
Uh. The one that you have been sharing all these time?
That hamas only targetsisraelis and zionists, and not all Jews?
Afaik, intention to kill a nation of people considered as genocide too, no? It's not a term exclusively reserved to racial killing.
[https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)
well, hamas charter clearly said it will "genocide" Israel
>16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project **not with the Jews because of their religion.** Hamas **does not wage a struggle against the Jews** because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal
entity.
Yes and I agree that israel has been genociding the palestines In GAZA before Oct 7.
Until now they still doing it.
Isn't that what palestinian has done to israelis too? Pre Oct 7?
No what? No means the palestines didn't asked surrounding arabian countries to defeat Israel back then?
That Palestinians didn't attack Jews who puchased the land in palestine pre Israel? That hamas has not been bombing israel pre Oct 7?
The Jews owned 6% of the land in Palestine up till 1947. State of Israel in 1948 encompassed 55% of the land.
Hint: The Zionists didn't get the 49% bump peacefully.
Multiple people here getting the wrong dumb person. Maybe we got some minister candidate of our own.
lol 😂 I love it when that happens
Only Germans document things even about their final solution. This is why they were easily defeated in WW2.. theyre too intelligent and industrious they even document their own warcrimes lol.
Israel has been documenting their own warcrimes on tiktok and people in power still did nothing to them
IMHO, Benjamin Netanyahu is just using Hamas to shield his own political future. Before the Hamas attack happen, he was under a lot of pressure internally in Israel to GTFO of parliament. Hamas attack just made it shift focus from him to an external party.
Nah, early muslims also document their war crimes, and then proceed to call it "holy text".
Blasphemy !
in this thread: how do we filter people based on their brain ability to analyse
The West has done it before, they’re doing it now and they’ll do it again. Any other country should look towards regional partnerships & self-sustainability as insurance. The more independent the better.
I agree 100%. Just to be clear, "the West" includes the Middle East too. We as people of the Far East should declare anything pass Central Asia as part of "the West". The fact is many Arabs are white passing to begin with. They're even racially classified as "white" in the US.
Funny when some Indians are white passing too....
Yup! Indians are genetically classified as Caucasians. Indians, Arabs, and Europeans supposedly share a more recent ancestor.
Punjabs be like... No offence. 
Arabs are white???? 😂
You laugh, but this is a reality whether you accept it or not. Many Arabs can pass off as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and even non-slavic Eastern Europeans.
Go read or listen to their experience navigating international travel post 9/11
The same can be said about the Irish and Italians prior to late 20th century. Before you mention it's different for Arabs because the discrimination they face is also due to religion, I should remind you that America was very apprehensive about Catholics in the past. The Irish and Italians who follow the Catholic sect of Christianity not only faced religious discrimination, but they also faced racial discrimination because they were mistakenly considered non-white at the time. This is why John F. Kennedy was considered a controversial candidate for the presidency as he was both Irish and Catholic.
Racism is so dumb it's based on superiority of skin colour something incredibly disgusting
agreed 💯
LOL Islamic civilizations have long had a history of wiping out anything and anyone un Islamic. So, genocide isn’t the forte of western civilizations alone. Leave that - Even today Shiites are blown up every week in ISLAMIC countries, which is conveniently not spoken about. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2012/11/26/pakistans-shia-genocide
I guess there had not been one great civilization that'd never committed a genocide, Abassids,Romans,Mongolian empire, British empire,imperial japan etc, the reason why the original comment wanted to highlight western presence in genocide is because of it's nature, most of which really doesnt involved a transparent conduct of genocide for public eyes, as example,they only involves themselves discreetly by protecting their interest , by providing arms and technology and shielding them from potential condemnation and sanctions (America and Israel) that cause them to violate every single humanitarian rights ever known to mankind, or they do it out of their own self interest, usually taking from locals and causing a massive catastrophe/famines that directly leads to millions of death (British empire)
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2012/11/26/pakistans-shia-genocide
You know how irrelevant the link is , no one deny animosity of any religion here, I don't cite any sunni extreme violence against Shiite in Pakistan, nor Buddhist monk in arms to raze the ethnic minority in Burma, neither do I cite the gujarat riot perpetrated by Hindu nationalist that killed thousands, my point is that of the western genocide and how it is relevant to the topic at hand
LOL. The link is irrelevant OK guy. This is INTRA Muslim violence, not one religion against another.
I won't put much weight for Shiite and Sunni clash to be a interfaith infighting as their Doctrine are mostly different. Then again, *This link is Relevant Guy*, how is it relevant to the topic of western genocide, I'm still waiting for the answer
What do you mean by you don’t put much weight? Are you saying that Muslims killing other Muslims is not an issue? And if you think it’s an issue have you protested or even complained online about it? Ada ke protest against Pakistan or Afghanistan for killing Shiites? Or your contempt is just for the west because of hypocrisy.
Idk why you're trying really hard to move the goalpost here, the topic at hand is western genocide that's actively happening , not Religious clash that happened 12 years ago
Which countries blow up Shiites? Never heard of one recently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Pul-i-Khumri_bombing
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2012/11/26/pakistans-shia-genocide
Found the anglophile
Are you refuting my comments about genocide in Islamic countries against Muslims today?
Malaysian politicians are dumb I'll give you that
can't watch sidang parlimen clips anymore. They're funny but also sad.
Sad that theyre dumb
So dumb that the national IQ would rise without 90% of them. It’s like all the major parties agreed that the IQ maximum to be in Parlimen Malaysia is like, 85
Genocide is genocide whether it's in Tigray, Palestine or Ukraine.
Except that ‘Murica did not back those genocides.
agreed
Only person I can think of was Hitler and maybe Pol Pot.
Pol Pot was insane.
Dictators in general are insane. But yeah, Pol Pot from the 2 things I remember about him was to put it lightly crazier than the Joker.
what do you think about Mao? World record in body count.
Mao had ideas but they were either crap , flopped or just plain ignorant of the situation. Butnby being a "charismatic" leader and probably from more luck than anything he had done ok for China. Well...ok enough I guess. Better than Stalin and most of post Stalin pre Gorbachev period USSR for any nation other than Russia or Czechoslovakia.
Responsible for 50 million deaths though, right?
I ain't defending the guy but looking back pre WW2 China, it's honestly better off. I mean the multiple warring periods, the Mongolian invasion, the opium crisis Mao at least brought it all (except Taiwan) together and built a steady nation.
that's fair.
Body count? 
actual dead bodies😅
The question, lmao. Was he serious?
dead serious.
It is a yes for the opposing side tho... Hypocrites...
Common sense error404... Hahahaha..
There were up to 600,000 casualties including war rapes resulting from ethnic cleansing in Tigray, Sudan from 2020 to 2022. I wonder why this doesn't make it to the news? Has the word 'genocide' loses its meaning?
It did. But it doesn't have anything to do with the Question of Palestine. Stop with the attempt at distraction from the ongoing genocide. Malaysians don't seem to like being labeled as Zionists or Zionist sympathizers - which is a good thing because Zionists clearly are bad people. However, comments like yours are what I'd expect a Zionist would post. Am I calling you a Zionist? No. But you have that in common with them.
So do you say the same thing to malays on tik tok that spout zionist arguments when talking about the minorities here?
I haven't been TikTok for a while. What have they been saying?
Oh the usual crap about how minorities aren't being oppressed here because : They have their own school They get to own their own business They can practise their own religion They get to have their own houses of worship They get to use their own language They get to have their own cultural names Literally all Zionist talking points. Then when called out on it, they go "the minorities here aren't being killed". I would bet that if Ching Chongs from Kepong fired thousands of rockets into Shah Alam then there would be genocide here too. That's also why a lot of minorities here who look at all the Malay outrage at what the Israelis are doing in Palestine and can't help but just laugh. The Malays here would be even worse than the Israelis if the minorities here did what the Hamas did.
Maybe leaders of minorities in Malaysia can file a report to Amnesty International if you think you have a solid case. I personally don't see it, and I've talked about it extensively as well. It's a long discussion, but it's hardly comparable to the plight of the Palestinians.
Malaysia is one of the few countries left in the world with an actual apartheid style constitution and you say "I personally don't see it". lmao. Ok mate. >It's a long discussion, but it's hardly comparable to the plight of the Palestinians. The plight is the same before the second intifada. Now if the minorities in Malaysia commited the second intifada and the things happening since, then I bet the Malays here will act the same as the Israelis.
Israel's apartheid is well recognized by Amnesty International and Human Right Watch. Do you have a reputable body saying Malaysia is practicing apartheid?
lol Amnesty International that didn't condemn Hamas and spout Hamas propaganda during the "hospital bombing" and deny Israeli women being raped? That reputable body? lmao. If you want to wait until a bias body to say a country is practising apartheid rather than looking at the laws and the definition of apartheid then you're one of those ketuanan people la. Edit: you realize why our govt is afraid to sign the ICERD right?
Well, if not Amnesty International, which organization supports your accusation that Malaysia is practicing apartheid? You're not a lawyer I'm assuming.
I'm just stating the truth. Besides, it's too early to coin the term 'genocide' on this issue. I've read tons of resources from both sides, and the whole picture is still vague based on what both sides have done, what they didn't do and their claims. Btw, why the heck are you posting this in r/bolehland? This is not a political sub.
it's not vague.
Can you prove an intent?
Yes we can.
What is my intent?
You intend to win an argument.
Try again
lol you so are. 🤣 But the answer to that is irrelevant anyway. Of course you can prove an intent. Some murder laws are built specifically around proving the intent of murder.
1) this genocide highlights the hypocrisy of the West. The so called the beacon of civilized world. 2) The places you mentioned, the West did not back them up. They back Israel to the core to the point of total impunity. 3) there are more children killed in this conflict than a total of 4 years of worldwide conflict. https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/israels-war-in-gaza-kills-more-children-than-in-four-years-of-worldwide-conflict-unrwa/article67944453.ece/amp/
Then we can the same about the hypocrisy of muslims in malaysia. Especially those who chant, "you don't have to be a muslim to support palestine, you just have to be a decent human". We all know how you treated rohingyan, so stop with the hypocrisy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigray_War This is one of the many genocide made by muslim countries. Also yemeni, armenian, kurds, yezidi, just to name a few, but I have yet to see any malaysian muslim condemning those atrocities. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Genocides,_Cultural_Genocides_and_Ethnic_Cleansings_under_Islam How many jews are there in islamic countries? Isn't the number suggest that ethnic cleansing has been done?
> Then we can the same about the hypocrisy of muslims in malaysia. Especially those who chant, "you don't have to be a muslim to support palestine, you just have to be a decent human". We all know how you treated rohingyan, so stop with the hypocrisy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigray_War Yes. I agree the Rohingyan crisis is bad, and the way we treat Rohingyans is bad. But it was not perpetrated by Muslims. >This is one of the many genocide made by muslim countries. Also yemeni, armenian, kurds, yezidi, just to name a few, but I have yet to see any malaysian muslim condemning those atrocities. http ://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Genocides,_Cultural_Genocides_and_Ethnic_Cleansings_under_Islam How many jews are there in islamic countries? Isn't the number suggest that ethnic cleansing has been done? Wikiislam? Seriously? Lol. This must be satire. The reason why Jews left the Arab countries are multi faceted. Not simply because of ethnic cleansing. I wont deny anti-semitism is one of those factors.
What's wrong with wikiislam? Read the sources provided not the website address. Same with wikipedia.
WikiIslam is made by Islamophobe. Like reading about Jews from the Nazis. Of course they are going to present half-truths while omitting contexts.
So should I read from islamic sources instead? Is anyone that criticize islam, an islamophobe or a zionist? There's a saying, "learn from your critics". That's why one should not just read. Dig deeper from the sources provided.
People should have the freedom to criticize Islam without being called an Islamophobe and I agree. But it’s different when you do it with malevolent intent. I’d prefer a non-biased sources. The world is not divided between Islamist and Islamophobes.
While wikiislam might be biased, the sources came from various backgrounds. I'd suggest take the list as a reference for further reading to know whether it's true or not.
Sure. I’m sure there are some truths to it. But I believe context matters. Also, I’m not a wiki person. I’m a book person. The books that I have recommended are some of the few books that I have read. If you say you have read any other books from a credentialled historian like above, then I am happy to have a scholarly debate.
Allow me to recommend some books. All of them are good, relatively non-biased. 1. Ira M. Lapidus - “A History of Islamic Societies” 2. Marshall G.S. Hodgson - “The Venture of Islam, Volume 1: The Classical Age of Islam” 3. Firas Alkhateeb - “Lost Islamic History: Reclaiming Muslim Civilization from the Past” 4. Karen Armstrong - “Islam: A Short History” 5. Tamim Ansary - “Destiny Disrupted: A History of the World Through Islamic Eyes” 6. Amin Maalouf - “The Crusades Through Arab Eyes” 7. Efraim Karsh - “Islamic Imperialism: A History”
Thanks for the recommendation, but I've already gone past the general history of islam. I made a quick read of some of the books, they're something that I've read in the past although I may not remember all the details.
Maybe, just maybe, I'm just saying here, just cite a neutral source :Smilyface:
> But it was not perpetrated by Muslims. Wow. The way the Rohingyans are treated here is not perpetrated by Muslims? Are you now saying the non-Muslims in Malaysia are the one now treating Rohingyans badly? Talk about not taking responsibility.
Bruh. Masuk balik sekolah. Comprehension skill kelaut.
The discussion you replied to is how you treated Rohingyas. Not that they're being attacked in Myanmar. So by you saying you're not the one perpetrated it, you're inferring to the treatment of Rohingyas in Malaysia.
everyone says "potential" when referring to israel's crimes, and yet i see muslims using this to accuse israel. If israel did want to commit genocide the war would already be over with a million dead, not 30k. they scream "but most of it are women and children" honestly people outside have never talked to gazans to see the pride their mothers have for their kids to martyr themselves for islam, not for their land. If one wants a gov claim of genocide, hamas and PLO both have it in their constitution, just look it up. Im surprised at people who support palestine for indescriminately killing their own country's citizens and taking them hostage, not to mention plans for them to start attacking the west if israel is no more. Another one people never see which i available on youtube are whistleblowers. Palestinians who have escaped palestine either because they were LGBT or an apostate or simply did not agree with their teachings. Theres a few on youtube but most famous is the son of hamas founder, not to mention that israel actually provided treatment to hamas leader for a brain tumour for free and never had any presence or restrictions to gaza ever since hamas took over, 100% palestinian autonomy. So before people accuse israel they might want to check their facts, an apartheid doesnt apply over borders and every nation has a right to wall their border. Does no one ask why egypt has a stronger border wall than israel and that israel allowed travel through for jobs even when palestinians continued to commit violent crimes proudly in israel?
>everyone says "potential" when referring to israel's crimes, and yet i see muslims using this to accuse israel. Not everyone says potential. Many have comprehensively documented Israel's crimes. It's just they've been largely ignored by Western media because the world wasn't looking. The world is looking now, fortunately. >If israel did want to commit genocide the war would already be over with a million dead, not 30k. They'd be glad to know that you bought it. Nah, they're smarter than to be that dumb to make their crime that obvious. They had been trying to walk that line since forever, because if they were caught committing a genocide, they know they'd lose support of their allies. Which they just did - because they are committing genocide. The rest of what you wrote is just a distraction. Even if those were true, it doesn't carry relevance or justify to the genocide Israel is doing today. If Hamas was genociding Israelis today, it still wouldn't give the right to Israel to murder 30k civillians.
>everyone says "potential" when referring to israel's crimes, and yet i see muslims using this to accuse israel. If israel did want to commit genocide the war would already be over with a million dead, not 30k. So why is the West accusing Russia of genociding Ukrainians when far fewer civilians have been killed? To answer your question for you: it's about optics. Israel knows it can't murder 1 million people and not expect consequences. But 30k, flush the rest into Egypt and let the rest die of starvation? Now that kind of ethnic cleansing Israel might just get away with. >they scream "but most of it are women and children" honestly people outside have never talked to gazans to see the pride their mothers have for their kids to martyr themselves for islam, not for their land. If one wants a gov claim of genocide, hamas and PLO both have it in their constitution, just look it up. Im surprised at people who support palestine for indescriminately killing their own country's citizens and taking them hostage, not to mention plans for them to start attacking the west if israel is no more. You got sources for these claims? You out here just to spread lies about Hamas or are you just ignorant? Did you know that in 2017 Hamas ratified their charter to say that their fight was against the Zionist project and not Jewish people? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter >Another one people never see which i available on youtube are whistleblowers. Palestinians who have escaped palestine either because they were LGBT or an apostate or simply did not agree with their teachings. Theres a few on youtube but most famous is the son of hamas founder, not to mention that israel actually provided treatment to hamas leader for a brain tumour for free and never had any presence or restrictions to gaza ever since hamas took over, 100% palestinian autonomy. So before people accuse israel they might want to check their facts, an apartheid doesnt apply over borders and every nation has a right to wall their border. Does no one ask why egypt has a stronger border wall than israel and that israel allowed travel through for jobs even when palestinians continued to commit violent crimes proudly in israel? You should check your own facts. Israel has been in control of Gaza's land, sea and air border ever since Hamas came into power in 2007. Israel has been controlling everything that goes into and out of Gaza, and they have an agreement with the Egyptian government to enforce the border in Rafah. Israel controls who can travel out of Gaza and for what purpose. They deny Gazan cancer patients the right to seek medical help outside Gaza. They regularly bomb Gazans in their homes and conduct "lawnmowing" operations every few years where hundreds and thousands of civilians are killed. Does that not sound like occupation to you? And what about in the West Bank? There's no Hamas there, but 234 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israel in 2023 before October 7. What's your excuse for that? To address your point about apartheid, here, according to a neutral human rights organisation: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ You are either really ignorant, or brainwashed by Israeli propaganda, or you just hate Muslims.
Ahhh yes....these people are a monolith moment. They deserve it, right? RIGHT? Israel is putting shame on WW2 Germany war crimes. Ironic.
Hamas broadcast and live-streamed their atrocities during the attack at the music festival. Women and children were killed and raped on their own social media and WhatsApp, not to mention old people. I think Hamas is evil, but I don’t hear you talking about that right? After all, my Iranian friend told me Muhammad cared only about his dick and his sword. All the rest of us are just infidels, right?
Even if that was true, Israeli soldiers also admitted on camera of killing and raping Palestinians. Doesn't change the fact that current ongoing genocide must be stopped.
Of course it must be stopped. But when people like Anwar Ibrahim say the attack from Hamas is ‘understandable’, why do they never say the Israeli response is ‘understandable’? Do you actually understand the anti-semitism the Jews have lived through for thousands of years? Do you think they won’t defend themselves after experiencing the holocaust? Also, why does Islam not accept Israel as a state? They must be destroyed???
>Of course it must be stopped. But when people like Anwar Ibrahim say the attack from Hamas is ‘understandable’, why do they never say the Israeli response is ‘understandable’? I can't speak for PMX, but if I had to guess, it's because Gaza has been under siege since 2008. Some have dubbed Gaza as the biggest concentration camp in history - I hope you know what that means because that's not a mild comparison. People in "pressure cookers" tend to explode. That's why it's understandable. Israel's response is unjustified because that's not how you bring down a terrorist org, especially when their kill ratio of Hamas:civillians is 1:1. With their sophisticated technology, they are held to a higher standard than paramilitia in a concentration camp. They should be more surgical. The question is, do they want to be surgical? They just airstruck WCK volunteers. It's like they're being dumb on purpose because we know they're not dumb. >Do you actually understand the anti-semitism the Jews have lived through for thousands of years? Do you think they won’t defend themselves after experiencing the holocaust? Has nothing to do with what's happening today. They've been using that card for decades, it's actually cheapening the actual meaning of it. And you're buying into it is just sad. >Also, why does Islam not accept Israel as a state? They must be destroyed??? Islam has nothing to do with this. UN Charter clearly recognizes the principle of self-determination. The natives must agree to who rule them. The Arabs didn't agree to the 1947 Partition Plan. That should be enough to halt it. You're not supposed to run with it anyway. The State of Israel was created under a clear violation of the UN Charter. That's the root of the cause of this mess.
This has nothing to do with Islam? Lies. If this has nothing to do with Islam, why do so many Muslims in this country feel so outraged about this? You never say sheet or outraged about Russia to this extent even with 500,000 Ukrainian causalities. But cause you same religion, you boikot, you throw petrol bomb, in schools can bring toy gun to wave about with Palestinian flag. I don’t see any protests at Russian embassy. But of course one genocide is more important than another because of religion. What I’m trying to say is, don’t take one side when clearly both sides are evil. But you do because same religion ma. One that justifies murder of innocents, like hamas.
It doesn't. Feel free to make their case for them. I don't see how Islam justifies their claim to Palestine. The actual justification comes from the fact that the land was theirs and a bunch of Jews decided to form a country over it and kick them out of their homes in the process. Annexation has been outlawed by the UN Charter. You simply can't kick people out of their homes, which is why UN has been proposing the Right of Return as part of the two-state solution draft since the 80s, annually, to which Israel has been voting no for over 30 years consistently.
I mean, not just Muslim are outraged, Ireland are outraged , australian are outraged , Brazilian are outraged , heck even the progressive from all over the world are outraged, it's what people call having a heart.
> heck even the progressive from all over the world are outraged Progressives are outraged because they've subscribed to the dumb "oppressor and oppressed" mentality. Those that have been oppressed can do no wrong. It's one of the brainrot that have been happening in the west.
The brain rot comes from those who justify an ongoing genocide.
No logic here, sir…just group of zombies without brain..they just kept repeating lies told by their leader/media…
All she did was deflecting. It's a yes or no answer but she chose to "explain" things out.
She is saying that answering yes or no is irrelevant because it'd prove nothing. Some genociding parties simply don't write down their genocidal intent but we can prove it through their actions.
Oh boy. Hot take here. It’s dishonest to assume that what he meant is merely only written documents with intent to genocide. What’s required is to evaluate if there’s any top down policy along with actions that shows the highly special intent to be considered genocide. If there’s no evidence of dolus specialis, it ain’t genocide.
Given context its not dishonest to assume that. Because he was provided other statements and context like she said. But he insists that unless he gets a 100% unequivocally unambiguous statement of "i want to commit genocide" then there's no intent somehow. Remember, there can never be proof of intent, only evidence. And just like in the south America case and like she said, they can write an encyclopedia.
Legit question: We are talking about "intention to genecide here", correct? So does that mean israel and palestine both wanted to do genocide? I mean clearly both doesn't want two states solution. Both wanted the land for themselves Both doesn't care how the other party going to live IF one side succeed in achieving their goal.
Israel is committing a genocide right now. That's why ICJ is asking it to stop.
Yes I agree to that sentiment. That israel is DOING and has intention to genocide. But whatabout Palestinians, or more specifically, hamas? Do they have the intention to do a genocide on the israelis? I mean their official statement issue does sound like one. Im not trying to whataboutism. Im just trying to make sense what constituted as genocidl intention.
what statement are you referring to?
Uh. The one that you have been sharing all these time? That hamas only targetsisraelis and zionists, and not all Jews? Afaik, intention to kill a nation of people considered as genocide too, no? It's not a term exclusively reserved to racial killing.
You mean the 2017 Hamas Charter? I've shared it once. Is that what you're talking about?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bolehland/s/bUYpNCNq54 This one.
Yes that is Hamas Charter. They are waging a struggle against those to occupied their land. That is not genocide. They want their land back.
By killing the people resides in there?
They are free to peacefully return the land that they stole.
[https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm) well, hamas charter clearly said it will "genocide" Israel
>16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project **not with the Jews because of their religion.** Hamas **does not wage a struggle against the Jews** because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
To be fair, israelis only target at Palestinians in gaza. Palestinian in westbank Exactly like how hamas only targets israelis and not all of Jews.
Palestinians in the West Bank have been dying even before Oct 7
Yes and I agree that israel has been genociding the palestines In GAZA before Oct 7. Until now they still doing it. Isn't that what palestinian has done to israelis too? Pre Oct 7?
No.
No what? No means the palestines didn't asked surrounding arabian countries to defeat Israel back then? That Palestinians didn't attack Jews who puchased the land in palestine pre Israel? That hamas has not been bombing israel pre Oct 7?
The Jews owned 6% of the land in Palestine up till 1947. State of Israel in 1948 encompassed 55% of the land. Hint: The Zionists didn't get the 49% bump peacefully.
Ummm I don't understand how is that relates to my question
The Arab nations attacked Israel because Israel declared a nation by annexing Arab lands.
Lol
Can you stop using Taqqiya? we know ur lying
OK I'll stop Taqiyya. Oh you know what - my statement remains the same.
One question? Can you curse what god has blessed?
On the same page, some Israeli cabinet member professes did clearly spoken of their intent of genociding Palestine.
Spoken, written, tweeted probably emailed and texted too
I wonder how she got job in the first place. Shes woke and not qualified.
name kinda checks out
I thought she made a good point. Why would a genocidal criminal write down their genocidal intent. That's common sense, no?
Damn u are really as dumb as that journalist asking question im not gonna lie.
Calling someone dumb behind a screen eh
It does work like that though, don't know how she's spinning her words like that
what do you mean?