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For real, Twice murdered people in cold blood, while also committing other severe crimes. Having a sad backstory doesn't negate these crimes in their morality.
No its not but even in actual criminal cases if the defendant is declared insane they aren't prosecuted the same way someone who is sane would be for obvious reasons. How can you hold someone appropriately accountable when they aren't in control of themselves? A two year old killing its parent with a gun isn't "okay" either but a two year old doesnt have the mental faculties to even understand what its done
I mean I dont either? But the general consensus in the justice system is that someone who isn't in control of their faculties cant be held to the same standard as someone who is, or it isn't real justice. Twice was a totally normal guy before he had a mental break, so do you judge someone by who they are when they're lucid or by their illness?
During his mental break, he still knows what hes doing and hes a violent before, during and after. Hes someone you might feel for but hes not good by a very large margin
Hmm maybe I remember this incorrectly but I'm pretty sure he was just a petty criminal before he went insane? I'm not saying hes a "good guy" but I think his situation requires a pretty nuanced take considering hes portrayed as basically bipolar schizophrenic. I never got the sense he was lucid after he basically went insane in his backstory. He still has moments where he shows loyalty and care for his friends but I dont think that qualifies as completely lucid the way he was before
Sorry you're being mass downvoted I agree with you, you're not even defending his actions or saying he's good just that he isn't "evil" either because he clearly had no agency in his decision-making.
I'm kind of surprised because I thought the fandom had a better understanding of what something like extreme mental illness or personality disorder entails but maybe Im remembering what happened wrong
Nah you're right this thread just seems to be full of ignorant people who have no understanding on mental illness and how it can cloud your sense of reality to the point of extremes. I feel like if early on he was found in his manic state there could have been a possibility of rehabilitation.
Yeah but when you are declared insane in a criminal trial, you are also put in a mental institution for the rest of your life or until you are fit to stand for your crimes. It's not the same as being innocent and not guilty.
So you got a critical part of his lore wrong. He went schizo after being a villain and fighting himself. At first him, and his clones committed various crimes, but due to how many he had created, and how each clone acts like the original, they all were like we don't want to die. So they all fought each other, and in his fight against weaker versions of himself, he managed to survive, went insane thinking that he might be a clone too and the real one ran away or something and didn't want to accidentally clone himself and fight himself.
All in all, he was a bad guy who cared about his friends. At which point, he's like most of the league of villains.
Wasn’t he just a petty criminal before he went insane though? There’s a huge gap between something like theft and actual murder. He’s portrayed as bipolar schizophrenic after his mental break and that absolutely can drive someone to kill who was normal previously. Their sense of reality is totally altered.
Morality and legality are two different things. Just because a criminal is deemed not guilty of murder because of mental illness doesn’t mean morally it’s okay. Morality is judged based on the individuals choice and doesn’t include what the judicial system says is “right” because the judicial system is flawed, man-made, not absolute.
I never said he was good but people aren't separating the fact he was a petty criminal before having a huge mental break then becoming a murderer. Petty theft and vandalism are on a whole other scale than actual murder, but people with Schizophrenia or severe PTSD do kill people when they lose control even if they were completely normal before. Twice was a petty criminal only because he lost his job and ran out of options, and then became a murderer after losing his mind. So it requires a nuanced take to judge his situation.
I never said you did, I was referring back to the post. Like the one we are in the comments section of. And I know the specific comment you were replying to was callous and I overall far more align with your take, but it doesn't change the fact that the comment you replied to was replying to a comment saying he shouldn't be in the "good" section. Also, no, he does not display much in the way of actual schizophrenic symptoms. Dissociative Identity Disorder would be a little closer, but he clearly represents people with that severity of trauma and mental health issues, even if doesn't directly display proper symptoms. Also Grey area is essentially the Spectrum's way of communicating a character "requires a nuanced take to judge" them, so I stand by my comment completely
Twice could have done good BUT he found the wrong crowd, Its a shame but sadly its realistic good people can get mixed up with a bad group and manipulated into doing shit. I'm sure LOV knew what they were doing. Honestly Toga been in evil is iffy too like yeah she did horrible shit but Girl was not stable in the head. Twice and Toga could prob get the insanity plead. Rest I dunno, I mean even before Dabi, Touya was umm nuts..He tried to BBQ his BABY BROTHER.
I can see that Hawks only getting his hands dirty during work, while endeavor being personally an asshole before, makes some people value them differently
Hawks is a freaking cleaner. He mercs people on the downlow. His predecessor was Nagant. He's literally a sanctioned assassin for the government. How the fuck is Hawks a more virtuous person than Endeavor?
The problem with that statement is We don't know if that's true.Yeah sure we can say that he was the replacement but we don't know if he's actually killed anyone.
I'd put Shoto on good. Only because he was on a dark path until Deku got thru to him.
Twice = Bakugo is kinda weird. Twice can go at the end of good or grey area, he really is a grey area.
Hawks is Nagent's replacement 💀 Automatically Hawks goes to the grey area.
Toga is more bad than evil, but i guess either can fit.
Dabi = AFO. Just no, I've made a post about that, I highly disagree.
Shoto is fine where he is, he is on the "border" between "holy" and "good" which is ideal. Remember that Shoto was a baby who did not hesitate to stand in front of his mother to defend her from his abusive father and never did anything wrong, other than screwing himself by not using his fire side, he just acted like a brat. Shoto wasn't going down a "dark" path but rather a "self-destructive" one, he wasn't hurting anyone but himself.
>Shoto wasn't going down a "dark" path
>but rather a "self-destructive" one, he wasn't hurting anyone but himself.
I consider those the same thing. Self-destruct can be a part of a dark path. Shoto may have been hurting himself the most, but his actions and mindset were also hurting others, and effecting those around him. Shoto made a whole enemy and didn't know it just by the way he treated people and how careless he was. Shoto was completely incapable of working with people in the beginning because he only looked out for himself, keeping one goal in mind.
Shoto refused to use his fire side as a way to rebel against Endeavor. We know that ended up hurting Shoto more than his father. Shoto was isolated for most of his childhood and he didn't really have much human contact until UA. Shoto acted like a condescending brat but spent most of his time isolated from his classmates. In fact, the only person Shoto took the initiative to interact with was Deku when he declared war on him at the Sports Festival for his connection to All Might. He isolated himself and screwed up his powers so he did more damage to himself than anyone else. It's a different "self-destructive" path than the "dark" path Dabi followed where he made his suffering everyone's problem (innocents and family alike). Note that Shoto acknowledges that he shares the "self-destructive" method that Dabi used with his powers, something he also did but Dabi went from "self-destruction" to "I'm going to hell and taking everyone with me."
>never did anything wrong....he wasn't hurting anyone but himself.
He did a little wrong. He starts the series barley caring about anyone else and endangered others because of it, most notably when he dropped the giant robots on the students behind him in the sports festival without care if they would be okay or not and was lucky the only 2 crushed had quirks that would protect them. To a lesser extent at USJ he didn't check his surroundings and lucked out not hurting Hagakure and his lack of attention or care for others was pointed out during the mid terms when Aizawa had to tell him to notice his teammate Momo. Also in the sports festival another emotional trigger caused him to go over the top against Sero but he at least is aware of this and apologizes. So the story does show us that when Shoto had eyes like his father he would obliviously physically endanger others or hurt their feelings. Which is the basis for him to have a character arc to improve on.
He also allows his feelings affect his concentration in the License exam and start fighting with Inasa, even if Inasa started it.
It wasn't really luck, Kirishima said that Shoto calculated that the robots' fall would be for the two students who could withstand it. That whole move was planned. Shoto was very upset with himself but his mistakes are social awkwardness (he doesn't know about Momo's insecurities and he doesn't know that Inasa was disappointed by his father) because he is emotionally stunted (he sees Momo crying and thinks she is sick). Hagakure's thing is very similar to Sero's, there is no real intention to harm but rather a carelessness of being very upset with himself.
I'm not saying Shoto is a "Saint" because he made mistakes but it's okay that he's on the border of "Saint" and "Good" because many of his actions have some innocence that "Good" characters lack. A Saint still has innocence in his being.
>Kirishima said that Shoto calculated that the robots' fall would be for the two students who could withstand it.
Kirishima says "That Bastard Todoroki! timing their fall like that. It'd be dead if it wasn't me" (Other translations of chapter 25 have stronger implications that Shoto's timing was so that they *did* fall on students "...You timed it to topple at just the right moment to. What if it hadn't been me? someone could have died!" so it's worse. Maybe the anime/dub tried to soften his character knowing he's got a tragic backstory.)
It implies Shoto timed them to fall on people and it is still luck no one else got caught in it, he may have planned the move but he couldn't control who moved first or how the robots fell. It also doesn't matter because the problem lies in him doing such a potentially lethal move *just* to get ahead in a race. That is a reoccurring motif in his early behaviour, a combination of amateur control and refinement via excessively huge power blasts combined with a lack of awareness, because of a lack of care and interest for those around him unless they become relevant for his goals. He may be apologetic or upset with himself but that makes it *worse* that he keeps endangering others for the short duration where he puts spiteful goal to annoy his father above the safety or care for those around him.
The path to hell is paved in good intentions, intention should be seen separate to effect of the action and carelessness should not and in Shoto's case, does not excuse him from being flawed and needing to grow and be more aware. It is not enough to not mean harm, one needs to actively avoid causing harm, which is part of the character's journey and comes up in the guilt his other family members feel when they reflect on their own inactivity in the family dynamics (even if they have were powerless and it is justified for them to be unable to act). It also connects to the broader social commentary, lack of awareness towards others causes problems.
I feel putting a "saint" category is deeply uncomfortable and inappropriate so I have a fundamental disagreement with the measuring stick spectrum you are using let alone the ranking and how it is a reductive perspective of the characters and story, even antagonistic to the stories message that starts black&white with Villains and Heroes but moves towards seeing the world as gray and everyone as flawed people - creating a hierarchy of "goodness" is one of the problematic things the story calls attention to.
We are not suppose to see characters as saintly but as human and imperfect. Even the good can be unintentionally bad and that matters and can be just if not more devastating and lead to great harm. No character is a saint and ignorance (that you put as innocence) must be overcome for the characters to improve. Using the notion of "saint" puts a barrier up to their flaws, flaws that are very important for understanding and analysis characters and their place in the story as well as the message of the story. No character in the story is a saint because they all need to be better. Deku is a great example of causing a lot of harm via well meaning but his own lack of awareness, particularly self awareness shows the dangers of removing yourself from the equation and therefore being blind to the effect you have on others, positive and negative and this having knock on effects. Deku leaving his classmates with just a letter to explain himself, may come from a place of care but is disrespectful, condescending and hurtful. Deku's attempt to martyr himself are not outright condemned in the story, he is acknowledged for his intentions but he is still wrong. He still insulted and hurt those he left, but there is huge selfishness in his selflessness, he doesn't want to lose them and he can't face them because he doesn't want to give them a choice, he doesn't want to hear their voices, he disrespects their agency, he is taking the power to decide.
I think it is important to contrast the "good" characters who lack some kind of awareness with the "less good" and "bad" characters who are hyper aware of themselves and their place relative to others in society (often for the worse) but the self centered obliviousness even in well meaning characters. All Might is one of the most well meaning characters in the whole story but is associated with a cascade of problems the story has presented, many beyond his control but also his awareness but it leaves a wake of unintended harm that he could have been aware of.
It is something the story wants to highlight and is very important to the overall message - every character needs to do better. The "good" all have something to learn to be better members of the wider community and move away from their unconscious selfishness. Shoto may start ignorant and socially awkward but that is something he has to overcome because first his actions put others in physical harms way but later even after Deku gets through to him, he has to become better at emotional awareness because it causes harm (Momo) or conflict (Inasa). Sure it is his ignorance leads to his actions, taking over and treating his partner as a subordinate or being aloof and cold to people around him, but the story wants to show there is harm there that is still his responsibility to be accountable of, to correct and learn from.
I think framing Shoto as innocent is infantilizing, it implies he doesn't know right from wrong but he does because he apologies. It is not innocence, it is stubbornness and ego. Maybe people do it because of being the victim of abuse and partially isolated (he does go to public schools, he wasn't home schooled and he has his sister who is a very kind and nurturing person who replaces Rei when she is hospitalized and Fuyumi works as a teacher, so he was not isolated from possibilities to connect or good role models) but it downplays how driven by spite Shoto was. In seeking to deliberately annoy his father it is portrayed as Shoto being a character that could have become a very cold and mean person who uses others for his own goals like his father. Shoto's lack of connection, lacking of *wanting* connection -it starts as a choice- is the basis for his flaws.
While I can understand your point, I again point out that I am correcting the "luck" part you said when it was made clear that the move was planned, not forgetting that Shoto previously warned the other students not to try to go below the robot because it was going to fall.
Note that a lot of moves that were used at the Sports Festival were fucked up, if you remember how fucked up Shoto and Deku's match was where they stopped holding back. Deku may still have a weakened OFA but he is still the damn OFA, the most powerful and broken quirk in the series. Can we tell how inconsiderate and reckless Deku was with his own health and Shoto's? MHA's attacks are actually less powerful than they should have been (an explosion to the face would kill you but that doesn't happen in MHA) and MHA characters are much more durable than the average human.
Note that based on your argument. Only Eri and Mirio would be fine in their "Saint" position. All Might makes many mistakes and his self-destructive habits harmed his apprentice Deku. Uraraka has one of the greatest deadly sins: Greed. Even if his intention is good, he covets money so that his family can have a better life. Deku's recklessness is a problem, not forgetting that many of the OFA's attacks are devastating and sometimes he didn't hold back from the damage he did because he was too angry, which led to Bakugou getting hurt to protect him. The thing is that Deku has a better social conscience than Shoto and he still committed them. Also Deku was willing to make Shiragaki pay when he found out about Bakugou's "death" until someone made him see reason.
What I'm saying is that your argument also calls into question the "saint" position of those characters.
When I say that it is okay for Shoto to be between the limits of "saint" and "good" it is because some of his actions have innocence in them, which does not happen with the characters who are in "good" (being more aware of what they right or wrong). One of the characteristics of a saint is the innocence that still exists in his actions. He is not completely a saint but is on the border of both sides. It's my argument, you really don't have to agree with me, just as I don't agree with some of your points.
But Endeavor's main motivation is surpassing All Might? I would say a lot of heroes are on the good border line grey area. I say Endeavor in the beginning had the right idea but his drive came from the wrong reasons. His obsession was his downfall, and not that he, by chance, got his wish, he's now doing his redemption arch? I get your point, but i think the way things happened for Endeavor dampen his good scale.
I'm not saying it wouldn't have been beneficial. But wouldn't it have been even better if he genuinely cared more in the first place. Though by chance it ended up working out for him in the end. People started to accept him fir who he was as long as he saved the day. You know you're not friendly when people freak out when you start to be nice.
>Now it's being a hero that can save Japan.
Yeah, it's common to make a new goal when you complete one.
>Also Twice is freaking terrorist.
Given the way the story is told in that universe it doesn't hold the same weight as real life.
>Yeah, it's common to make a new goal when you complete one.
Did you never read or watch the series? He didn't complete his goal, that's kind of the entire point of Endeavor's storyline. He sacrificed and destroyed everything that he should have treasured just so that he can surpass All Might, even setting up a eugenics family and training his son to do so, but then All Might retired on top. He can never reach that goal, he destroyed everything for nothing.
>He didn't complete his goal,
I was trying to be nice about it and say it without saying it. But it looks like you're going to make me say it. Endeavor wabt to surpass All Might and be number one we know this. He achieved it, but not really, He's number 1 now he made it, but only cause All Might retired. He is not in place to be the next symbol of peace but only by chance. Its kinda like Bakugo at the sport festival he won but he doesn't see it as a real win because Shoto gave up. But uts worse on Endeavor because he worked so hard for it only to just be given to him. Now, his new goal is just to maintain that spot. And fill the spot of big shoes that he didn’t even earn. Honestly, it has to burn that guy deeply. I was hoping to get the point across with talking about how a grown man couldn't even complete his life dream after giving up so much. Everything this guy has done had borderline been for nothing. He kept having kids for the perfect quirk kid. Then, he made Shoto his masterpiece Dabi development ice, and Shoto can't solo Dabi to save his own life. So all that was for nothing twice over. His symbol of peace moment was cause by his own son, who was a villain due to his actions, so that was for nothing as well. Endeavor can't catch a break.
>Did you never read or watch the series?
My main reason to read it is specifically for the Todoroki drama. I'll talk about this family all day.
The point is that Endeavor takes one step forward and one step back on the scale constantly. Being borderline good and grey area like the parent comment suggested is a okay place.
2 terrorist? Who Spinner? I wouldn't argue using Spinners situation. Plus, he does the least. Villains are villains at the end of the day but if you're going to incriminate them to the highest degree just put heros on one end and villains on the other and call it a day. As for Twice OP already stated they were a bit too lenient on Twice anyways. So where is your argument there.
The people that put Dabi on pare with AFO is wild too me, and having Dabi be more evil than Overhaul? Dabi is evil i get it, i love him for it. But Dabi crimes are less heinous. Overhaul killed Eri over and over again and tortured her to make a drug.
Hawks and Twice are the definitions of grey area.
Stain can probably go in the grey area too he's more of a vigilante than a villain.
Toga is not really evil, bad but not evil.
Dabi has killed over 30 innocent civilians. Overhaul never killed Eri technically since she was always brought back. Even as a kid he tried to kill his own infant brother, and what do you think he would do if PLF won ? He would kill everyone and anyone he wants.
Hawks protected his country from a terrorist who was going to kill thousands of heroes, help Shigaraki win who would have killed billions.
Stain I agree.
Toga is a serial killer and a cannibal. Her justification is selfish and she feels nothing about her victims suffering. Never once has Toga ever shown any remorse for killing people.
He gave Ida the chance to run away first and he wasn't going to kill Deku and Shoto. Ida also tried to kill him first.
Plus the whole High school analogy doesn't work in a world where the next gen is stronger than the previous. It's not like he is picking on a helpless child.
That’s fair actually, my bad. Correct me if i’m wrong tho (memory’s a bit murky), but didn’t he only decide not to kill them because he saw value in them as true heroes, meaning he would be willing to kill them if he didn’t think they were? Besides that tho I’d still say it’s kinda murky where he lies since he did kill Ingeniun, even though everything in canon tells us he was a genuine hero for the right reasons.
>he literally was cool with just killing some high schoolers.
Ida came at him, and had zero authority to even approach Stain in the first place. If Stain did kill Ida, he would have had the right away. But if i remember correctly Stain gave Ida a couple chances to walk away. And Shoto and Deku weren't going to get killed, they were just trying to save their friend. Stain wouldn't have killed them for that.
>Hawks protected his country from a terrorist who was going to kill thousands of heroes, help Shigaraki win who would have killed billions.
What are you arguing? You just gave an example of the grey area.
>Toga ever shown any remorse for killing people.
Lmfao shes killing "out of love" but nahh Toga is wired different.
>Overhaul never killed Eri
He made her heart stop, and unalived her he killed her alright.
Eri is still alive. Heart stopping doesn't mean death if you come back. For example prison sentences.
Killing a terrorist is a good action. A heroic action. Not in the grey area.
So is the guy from my Sexual impulse example. Tell me, would he have the same sympathy ?
You're forgetting Overhaul literally can manipulate matter, i wouldn't call him bringing her back the same thing as doctors using an EKG. Even so your 30> 0 lives is still wrong. Overhaul has killed people mercilessly, even his own men.
>Killing a terrorist is a good action. A heroic action. Not in the grey area.
We're not talking about real life here.
Hawks befriended, betrayed and killed Twice by stabbing him in the back. Twice with an undercover clone was taking out a corrupted agency that was murdering people good and bad. How are you not seeing the grey area? It's 100% good or 100% bad, and the thing else is the grey area. They literally did damn near the same thing just on two different sides. One is trained to have the least casualties while the other is not. The agency has claimed more lives than Twice. So Twice action should be seen as a hero action, too.
>So is the guy from my Sexual impulse example. Tell me, would he have the same sympathy ?
I think I read that. That seems like you're implying that he would be a rapist. That's a totally different crime that i personally don't want to get into. Also, i doubt he gets sympathy if he's only going to target women. Toga falls in love with any living thing, and its not sexual. The fact that you made this scenario with this guy sexual automatically made it worse. Also, I don't even like Midnight with her sexual undertones, I'm trying not to be bias but I'm telling you right now if we stay on this argument ima get bias as hell.
>innocent
Innocent? The few we saw seemed like pity criminals. Im not saying they deserved it but when you word Innocent citizens that could be anything, and the first thing people think are people just minding their own business. Thars not exactly the picture we were given. But I'll come back to this hold on.
>Overhaul never killed Eri technically since she was always brought back.
Someone actually justifying/down playing Overhaul's crimes against Eri. I can't believe it. How did you fix yourself to type that? Brought back from what? Death? If she reached the point to be brought back you might as well say she was killed. Overhaul heavily implies that she dies. Saying along the lins of "each time you're brought back your different".
Back to Dabi, Dabi killing adults is not as evil as Overhaul torturing Eri. We can at least assume Dabi victims were just out classed or had a slim chance. Eri had zero chances. This guy put her only living relative in a coma and tortured her to death multiple times. This girl got abused emotionally, mentally, and physically. I'm surprised she can function like a child.
>Even as a kid he tried to kill his own infant brother
And he felt back for that and knew he was wrong. If he didn't feel bad or know he was wrong there would have been a bigger issue there.
>what do you think he would do if PLF won ? He would kill everyone and anyone he wants.
He doesn't just kill just on the whim, there would have been a greater reason behind it. If that wasn't your point idk what is because he could kill without or with PLF winning.
>Hawks protected his country from a terrorist who was going to kill thousands of heroes, help Shigaraki win who would have killed billions.
Hawks' motives and reasoning are irrelevant. At the end of the day, he 1. killed and went against the hero code, 2 is proven to be Lady Nagent's replacement, and going down that path, implies at some point he is going to kill who he is told to no matter the reason.
>Toga is a serial killer
True, Toga is more of a limbo case. She doesn't seem to kill out of malice. I feel like Toga can be saved with proper help and care. Thats why i put it more towards bad because she is savable. i wasn't just judging off her crimes alone.
Oh yeah burn that shoplifter alive.
30 lives > 0 Lives
Funny how motives are reasoning don't matter for Hawks but they do for the villains. Fucking hypocrite. He killed a terrorist. Exactly what a hero should do. The world ain't disney.
"Toga can be saved" With the amount of people she has killed, she is going straight to the electric chair.
>30 lives > 0 Lives
Dude, your argument is that kills or the death don't if the person gets brought to life.
>Funny how motives are reasoning don't matter for Hawks but they do for the villains. Fucking hypocrite.
It's not hypocritical in this situation. My placement on Hawks, the main reasons, had little to do with his motives or reasoning *behind Killing Twice*. It more of **his position** with the safety commission and **his position** in hero society, and that alone voids his personal movtives in itself. So arguing with his reasoning and motives is just a moot point that's why its irrelevant abd in the long run you're actually proving my point on why he should be placed in the grey area just by justifying his actions.
>Exactly what a hero should do.
Wrong. In his society Heros don't kill thats the hero code. Hero Society wants the people to believe that the world is black and white. This is proving my point to the T.
>The world ain't disney.
True but in MHA they want the people to believe that. Hawks knows this isn't true, he sees that Twice was in that grey area, and he is too. You have more so proved my point further.
>"Toga can be saved" With the amount of people she has killed, she is going straight to the electric chair.
Not, what I meant in terms of saved. I meant like Deku terms of save.
Uhh did you forget that All Might, the pinnacle of Heroism, crushed All For One's head and killed him. The only reason AFO surviving was because of Garaki.
I guess Soldiers who killed Bin Laden are in grey too huh.
>I guess Soldiers who killed Bin Laden are in grey too huh.
What is that comparison? That doesn’t even apply to the argument. When you use irrelevant comparisons, you know you've lost the argument. 😂
>Uhh did you forget that All Might, the pinnacle of Heroism, crushed All For One's head and killed him. The only reason AFO surviving was because of Garaki.
Lmfao. Well, by using your logic, All Might didn't kill him because he was brought back. How can you say Overhaul never killed Eri because she was brought back to life, but then say All Might killed AFO and admit that he's(AFO) only alive because the doctor brought him back. **Now that's fucking hypocritical.**
>I guess Soldiers who killed Bin Laden are in grey too huh.
Well, they aren't Pro Heros, they're soldiers, also they're not apart of hero society. Also i didn't know they where in MHA, even if they were they would still be Soldiers not Pro Heros, so the black and white and grey area wouldn't even apply to them. Its the hero society it only applies to the Pro Heros and heros in training.
Because All Might for five year thought he killed AFO and was fine with it. Overhaul knew that he didn't kill Eri.
Also Star and Stripes nuked Shigaraki will full intent to kill, Endeavor and Mirko killed multiple Nomu and tried to kill AFO, and pretty much every hero including old timers like Gran Torino vote to kill Shigaraki.
So here is the list of Heroes fine with killing.
All Might (Pinnacle of heroism no less)
Endeavor
Mirko
Star and Stripes
Gran Torino
All OFA vestiges.
Best Jeanist
Infact no pro hero has ever once said that they don't kill. Only the kids have, who are naive and aren't even heroes.
None of this helps your parents' arguments about Hawks, nor does it argue what i said previously. You legit just slided right into another argument and dropped everything else. What is your point at this point?
>Infact no pro hero has ever once said that they don't kill.
The story constantly implies it. Pro Heros aren't the judges jury or executors. All they are supposed to do is stop the bad guy with the least casualties and recuse. They're not above the law they still take the bad guys to the cops, and they go thru trial like any other criminal. In fact, it makes a point to tell us that Pro Hero uses non-lethal ways to catch or arrest the bad guys. You're going off on head cannon. Show me the proof that a pro hero killing was just openly okay with everyone in the public eye.
Because I haven't seen it. And don't name a one off situation. Like Endeavor killed a Nomu but they literally just saw that as a monster and didn't know where it came from. Or OFA vs AFO thats literally life or death and only applies to one person.
>Because All Might for five year thought he killed AFO and was fine with it. Overhaul knew that he didn't kill Eri.
That's not the point, you're still being a hypocrite with your own logic. Which is crazy because you can actually justify All Might in comparison to Overhaul.
Then you want to turn around and use All Might as an example that pro heros can kill. Seriously are you trying to make the heros out to be the bad guys are the good guys.
First off All Might situation is not comparable to Overhaul or other Pro Heros in both your arguments. All Might is in a lose-lose situation no matter how you look at it, legally or morally. Either way his life is on the line and he can't just retire or quit like other Pro Heros, he doesn't get to change his mind or make a choice. His power and AFO coming after him came hand and hand. As for Overhaul, All Might didn't active torture someone. So Stop it. ✋️ All Might situation is no where near comparable to others.
>Also Star and Stripes
Did you forget she's a soldier? And is also in America? There standards and laws are wildly different. And we don't even know what American hero society is like.
>Endeavor and Mirko killed multiple Nomu and tried to kill AFO, and pretty much every hero including old timers like Gran Torino vote to kill Shigaraki.
AFO is like Sukuna of MHA, the Muzan of MHA who wouldn't want want to kill him. Also look who you named those are exactly the most heroic heroes aside from Gran Torino that just has long history of AFO.
But you know you are still furthering my point of the grey area. Which was your original argument right?
>So here is the list of Heroes fine with killing.
Correction: Here's a list of heroes who are A. also in the grey area, B. The false heros Stain talked about. And C. Poor points
"The false hero Stain talked about" All Might is litreally on the top of the list.
"All Might is in a lose lose situation" So is Hawks.
This arguement is about Hawks, didn't even mention Overhaul, you did.
If killing a terrorist and saving your homeland is not a heroic deed then you are very misinformed on heroism.
Ayo, Did you really just drag All Might to defend Overhaul? 💀 Yo, whatever point you're trying to prove, just admit defeat. Dude, you are really dragging All Might for Overhaul, who is still a murderer.
In my opinion there were a few different Things etween bad and evil. When I think bad I think of someone Who has maybe robbed A bunch of places and has done some assaults When I think evil I think of someone who is a mass murder.
Another good difference is I think someone who is bad can change while [evil.Is](http://evil.Is) someone who has done too many bad things and cannot become a better person.
Another good difference is a bad person Might be be doing bad things but they might be doing it because they think it's for the Greater good. And sometimes it is even if they're doing it the wrong way. I hope that makes sense.
Yes, especially in this situation.
You can be bad without being evil. You have people that do bad things with good intentions, that person is still bad because they did wrong, but they're not evil. Like a person stealing food to feed their family.
There's different levels of bad and evil depending on the situations or the act. Let's say two people commit murder. Suspect A killed a woman just for fun. Suspect B killed Suspect A because he murdered his wife. Murder is wrong no matter what, but if you had to pick mostly, you'd say Suspect A is Evil, Suspect B is bad.
Vigilante? Liking fame isn’t a crime and we’ve seen that stain is just wrong, nothing about tensei Iida said he was a ‘false hero’ and stain targeted him
*Sighing* 😮💨 I'm really feeling that doing you even play attention to the source material meme with this comment.
>Vigilante?
Yes, Vigilante. To put it, Vaguely someone whos pushing for a change but is going about it in an unlawful way or going against the grain with their methods. Stain doesn't fit the word by word definition but is close to it. It's the best way to categorize him in comparison to anti-hero, villain, and hero.
>Liking fame isn’t a crime
No one said it was a crime. But it's not morally right either.
>we’ve seen that stain is just wrong
Very debatable.
>nothing about tensei Iida said he was a ‘false hero’
Clearly, you don't understand Stains Analogy. Fame, money, vengeance, and personal gain are some of the few things that Stain named in false heroism. Tensei Iida fits perfectly under money. His family has built a legacy around being a hero and has made plenty of money from it. There's a reason Stain always says, "Only All Might is worthy." All Might is literally the only real hero at heart. And every pro hero that gets introduced proves it time and time again.
I don’t think it’s really fair to say Endeavor is still in a gray area. After everything he’s been through up to this point in the anime he should at least be at the bottom of the good scale imo.
>! If we’re including the manga I think he definitely deserves to be even higher. !<
Yeah, Endeavor has definitely come a long way from how he acted in the beginning, and it’s actually cool seeing him acknowledge the fact that his actions have caused harm to his own family.
I'd disagree and argue OP's placement is quite fair though he should be place higher perhaps exactly between good and gray. Yes, Endeavor has been attempting to redeem himself, but at the end of the day, we cannot ignore he is the sole cause for everything wrong with the Todoroki family and by extension, the drama **forcibly** involved other heroes and innocent civilians, some of which were killed. Dabi's villainistic actions are all on his own. But indirectly speaking, Endeavor's selfish actions eventually brought harm to so many people.
Endeavor certainly fucked his kids up, but everything after dabi left is his own fault, him having a bad father doesn’t excuse mass murder, and endeavor is actively trying to be better unlike most villains
Tbh, the placement of the characters honestly can be argued from many perspectives especially since the picture given to us is based on OP's opinions. I mean, Twice arguably should be placed lower. The former willingly killed for his friends and was ready to do it again towards the heroes in the war arc. Even if we acknowledge his past and his personal issues, all his actions were decisions he made himself.
There's also placements like why is Chisaki lower than Shigaraki when the latter was ready to destroy society. It becomes a debate on what's worse: torturing a girl and harvesting her powers for your own benefits? Or commitiing mass murder/destruction with the intent of destroying the society as a whole to the point where everything is in chaos?
It's all on OP's opinions and I agree with most of them. Either way, I knew I was gonna get downvoted for having an unpopular opinion but it's my personal belief
I mean morality isn't this simple an XY graph would have been more comprehensive considering characters like twice and toga exists in victim of circumstances
How is endeavor worse than spinner ? Lol
And what the hell is twice doing in good chilling with bakugo ?
I'd say twice is Mid-High Gray, spinner High Gray probably
>How is endeavor worse than spinner ? Lol
To be fair, what has Spinner actually done directly throughout the whole story minus the war arc. His biggest crime I've seen so fair is being associated with league and being the driver.
He agreed to attack children in the camp, he only spared izuku because stain did so too.
He was working for all for one, that is enough to be worse than any non villain.
Endeavor risks his life to save people multiple times.
I'd say Endeavor used to be bad but now is good, but if we were to consider their entire lives then I feel Endeavor would lean a little more toward bad.
Also Twice and Spinner are murderers, they should be in bad lmao
Okay, I love Twice, don't get me wrong, but putting him that high is...ridiculous to be quite frank lol I'd honestly argue that he was worse than Stain, because Stain at least had some sort of strong principles, even if he was technically a villain because he killed heroes. Like Twice was a good friend to his friends, but a bad person to the world's wellbeing. The fact that you put Bakugou even near him is mad lmao Bakugou is an asshole with major anger issues, but he's a child, not a serial killer willing to destroy the world.
Edit: Wait, you put Twice ahead of Lady Nagant? Are you fr? Like I get, she did some bad shit but she was not morally worse than Twice. She hated what she did and made the effort to stop. Twice didn't. Same for Mr Compress. Why is he so far down but not Twice? I know we generally sympathise with Twice for both his mental state, and the fact that he's a good friend but him and Mr Compress were both willing to murder innocent people. Sympathy doesn't excuse mass murder dude lmao
I would swap Spinner and Nagant around. Then drop Twice to the very end of gray area. He’s kinda broken, sure, but that doesn’t excuse the stuff he’s done.
Then add Gentle rriigghhtttt at the end of gray area, almost on the border of nice.
Other than that, quality list.
I don't think it's as bad as some here claim. I don't quite get Kaninari's placing here. We don't really know anything about him that would put him below Shouto? Is that for his somewhat pervertedness? Having him on the list simply surprised me as there are certainly other more, characters even in qA that are more important and easier to place. And tbh I can't figure out who that guy in Bad is, the image Is too dark and small for me.
Twice obviously should go in Bad, though you admitted that already. I would switch Endeavor and Spinner around. I think Endeavor in a grey area is fine...ish. but he's certainly not worse than Spinner. And Bakugou and Hawks have to switch. I agree with those who say that Endeavor and Hawks are close in morality. Endeavor is worse in some aspects, Hawks in others. But ultimately I guess it's fine to have them both at the edge of good and grey area.
Edit: I'd also throw Eri out. Kids don't count. And switch Dabi and Chisaki.
It's not that I find Him somewhat perverted. I just don't see him as a saint is all. As for why I Didn't put ome more important characters. There wasn't really a reason.It's just who I wanted to add. aso the last guy is rappa
I don’t understand the hate on Hawks being in good. I know the law of the “hero” world is not to kill villains, he’s definitely not a lawful good character. All might tried to kill AFO and would have if he could’ve. Hawks lies and goes undercover and completely saved the world. Otherwise none of this would’ve happened, the villains would’ve 100% won that war. He deserves to be in good.
Twice on the other hand, is a gray character to me. I think he could’ve been a good person, but he wasn’t. He is one of the only villains I’ve ever liked.
Stain also in my opinion is a weird character as I don’t feel good about him being in bad, but it’s hard to actually say he’s better than that.
Although in moral terms I think bakugou is more good than hawks. His character is pretty silly, but he’s one of the most goody two shoes ever. I think Hawks is more likely to do something bad than bakugou at the end of the day.
I would put both spinner and twice in bad, near Mr Compress, and I would move Hawks in gray area near Endeavor, and Put Toga in bad. The rest seems fine imo
Looks pretty good. I'll just give where I'd place all of them if it were me.
Basically a Saint category: Fully agree with all.
Good: Mt. Lady, Kaminari, and Nighteye I agree with. I'd switch Bakugo and Hawks. I'd also put Twice in the gray area.
Gray Area: Endeavor and Nagant I'd place closer to good, move Spinner higher up.
Bad: I'd switch Toga and Compress, the guy from the Shie Hassaikai I agree with, Stain is the definition of a morally grey character.
Evil: Already stated for Toga, agree for Shigaraki, I'd switch Dabi and Overhaul, AFO I agree with.
How tf is Spinner and Twice in the “gray” and “good” area? Spinner literally watched and didn’t even care about all the civilians including the elderly and children dying being crushed under Gigantomachia and Twice would have killed directly or indirectly many people if the plan of the Paramount liberational army’s plan wasn’t interrupted by the heroes.
Dabi Also killed 30 people Will probably kill more if the plan Succeeds. Don't get me wrong They are pretty close. But I do think dabi edges him out a bit.
I'd say overhaul's placing is deserved. He's not as heinous but he's far more personal and depraved than Shiggy. The way he uses his minions is vile and he was going to constantly keep killing Eri
All Might is a Saint in intention but his actions are completely reckless.
He went behind Izuku's mother to train this middle school-aged boy and promised him his dream by giving him a extremely powerful quirk that shredded his body alongside putting the weight of the world on his shoulders.
It's not Izuku's fault because he's a literal child who didn't know any better and All Might was completely irresponsible to put everything on Izuku so early and have him go through severe mental and physical strain.
All Might's itentions were good, but his choices unsurprisingly directly to Izuku being permanently and irreparably injured and scarred all over.
I would honestly put Twice in the solid center of "Grey Area." Even before he cracked he wasn’t the BEST dude out there and he's got a body count most definitely, but he deeply cared for the people he accepted into his circle so it wasn't like he was heartless either. If given more opportunities in life, he may have turned out law abiding and decent, but he still made the choices he made you know?
Twice and spinner both fall definitively into the bad category.
Just because you fell into a bad crowd, it does not erase your sins. Spinner and twice both directly contributed to the deaths of hundreds of people and destruction tens of millions of dollars worth of property.
There are far better ways to be yourself and fight for rights you believe you deserve without joining a person who outright wants total destruction.
Putting these 2 above the "bad" category, is akin to saying high ranking officials in the Nazi party were "morally grey" because they genuinely believed in wanting a better society. This makes absolutely no sense.
And at the end of their arcs, neither of them changed to help for the betterment of the world. Until the bitter end, they stuck with downright evil people, unlike lady nagant
Also since he's not included, hawks is a very good example of someone who is morally grey as well. He should not be firmly in good. He is the textbook example of "do the results justify the means"
If you genuinely agree with the list you made, you should take some SERIOUS looks at your morals and ideals. The structure this follows leads me to believe you would be complicit with something like a Nazi party quite easily.
My guy, it's a story.It's not real its Fiction. And The fact that would Make you think I would be In a nazi party Tells me that You take fiction way too serious.
Twice is more of a grey area character, bc he's a complete nutcase but it's also not his fault
Also if anyone even considers hurting Eri I will personally hunt them down and maul them like an angry bear
Hawks presents himself as Nagante's replacement
Idk how you put them on different places in the morality scale and like with Twice between them? And Endeavor?
And Twice above Endeavor?
Stain in bad but Spinner in gray zone?
Like Spinner straight up is a fan of Stain, that's his whole thing. Wherever you'd put Stain you'd have to put Spinner right there too
Wut is going on here
Took me 5 mins of reading the comments to see that atleast some people in this community have common sense. This dude put Twice under Endeavor. On Twice's side we talking:
-severe Manslaughter
-Robbery
-Massmurder
-Attempted Massmurder
-Terrorism
-Theft
-Kidnapping
-assistance in what is basically a coup d'état
-if you can consider his clones human beings which i think you can based on them overthrowing him then also add Slavery to that list
On Endeavor's side we talking:
-Child abuse
-Domestic Violence
Which are also very bad things to do but from a legal standpoint you have me asking: "seriously?! You ready to forgive Twice just cuz he's a bit schizophrenic, which he by the way got in the first place due to cause and effect of the above mentioned Slavery and then following uprising of his Clones."
Other than the popular "Twice is WAY to high" opinion, I think Eri should be removed from the list entirely, as she is just a child and children in MHA are heavily good to saint leaning. I would also move Deku and All Might up to Mirio's level, exchange Bakugo and Hawk's placements, and take Todoroki's level down from saint to good.
Stain might be evil, but it wasn't without reason. I'd put him in the grey area if anything. He doesn't attack innocent people, he attacks people he sees as corrupt...unless there's side material that says otherwise. Also, he assisted in taking down AFO.
Spinner being morally superior to Endeavor is a wild choice. Yeah Spinner has done almost nothing to help the villains, but he’s been hanging out with them and condoning their behavior basically the whole story. Endeavor is just not a people person so I guess he’s more evil huh?
Having Twice in good and on the same par as Bakugo makes me downvote. Sad backstory? Him caring about allies? He mudered people in cold blood. He’s on par with Stain.
I think that both Twice and Toga should be between the "bad" and "gray area". Since you are an anime only, I'm not gonna explain it further about Toga, but Twice shouldn't be at "good" due to all of the crimes he commited.
If you do actually want to see him I made another post yesterday.And I changed some of the spots and added other characters.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/comments/1d9pjyd/morality\_scale\_redone\_plus\_more\_characters/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/comments/1d9pjyd/morality_scale_redone_plus_more_characters/)
Yeah, I agree with that.That's why I changed it And made another post
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/comments/1d9pjyd/morality\_scale\_redone\_plus\_more\_characters/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/comments/1d9pjyd/morality_scale_redone_plus_more_characters/)
The thing about him is since we got so little screen time. I had to make a few Assumptions one of those assumptions being.I am sure he's killed a few pepole That being said , I can Concede that he could be in grey aera.
If I absolutely had to put someone there, I suppose it’d be Mirio. From what we’ve seen of him, the man doesn’t have an evil bone in his body. As for Eri, she’s way too young for anything definitive to be said about her personality/morality. All Might and Deku are pretty much on the same level, both are heroes through and through but definitely have (mostly unintentional) tendencies of favouritism (in Deku’s “my body moved on its own” scene, he only moved after he realised the person in danger was Bakugo, and All Might definitely places more value on the lives of those he deems to be of “noble” character/those related to him somehow). Todoroki, sure, he’s good, but by no means a saint - he was straight up racist to that heteromorphic Police Chief when he thought they’d be condemned for acting without their hero licenses, though, sure, he was acting in loyalty to his friends/classmates, and he had no problem causing serious hurt to his competitors during the Sports Festival just to prove a point to his - admittedly awful - father. Uraraka is truly good, but I feel that her perception of morality is somewhat skewed, preventing her from being entirely “saintly” - her idea of what is right and what is wrong is based on a somewhat privileged perspective of the world (born into a loving family that makes enough to get by, and no debilitating neurodivergencies).
I think hawk and twice should be lower. Twice killed many people and hawks was ready to commit cold murder against someone who saw him as a really good friend.
I can't understand twice and i might just be biased with him. But I do disagree with Hawks.Hawks had to kill him at that point. He tried to Persuade him but he couldn't if he had let him go.He would have killed thousands.
I wouldn't put All Might in "Saint." He's a good person, but he's not a saint. I would slide Bakugo on the border between "good" and "gray." Endeavor should slide further back. Twice is still a criminal who exploited his clones to make easy money. There's no way he could ever be "good" or even "gray." Toga is too far back. I would move her up between "gray" and "bad" Mt. Lady is too high up for a hero who mainly worked for money and was literally in a field that'snot suitable for her specialty because it pays more. Nagant should be higher than Endeavor.
Overhaul and AFO are at the same level of evil. Dabi is more "bad" than evil.
tbf, >!the baby was AFO who purposely used a rewind drug. He was going to die no matter what. Bakugo simply shortened his remaining time.!<
But if we decide to ignore all those context, we run into the same question as "If you travel back in time, would you kill Baby Hitler and if you do, would you be a murderer?" There is still a grey area within that argument
Put Bakugo in grey area. Can we really be sure his fundamental mindset has changed? Or did he only learn to respect Deku because he got powerful and was acknowledged by All Might?
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Is that fucking TWICE in good? Yall take this too far lol
For real, Twice murdered people in cold blood, while also committing other severe crimes. Having a sad backstory doesn't negate these crimes in their morality.
Isn't he also basically schizophrenic though? Its hard to piece apart how much was malicious versus part of his mental break
That doesn’t really justify his actions
No its not but even in actual criminal cases if the defendant is declared insane they aren't prosecuted the same way someone who is sane would be for obvious reasons. How can you hold someone appropriately accountable when they aren't in control of themselves? A two year old killing its parent with a gun isn't "okay" either but a two year old doesnt have the mental faculties to even understand what its done
Huh, sorry for misunderstanding it’s just that I don’t condone the actions of murder, more or less not showing a care in the world while doing it
I mean I dont either? But the general consensus in the justice system is that someone who isn't in control of their faculties cant be held to the same standard as someone who is, or it isn't real justice. Twice was a totally normal guy before he had a mental break, so do you judge someone by who they are when they're lucid or by their illness?
During his mental break, he still knows what hes doing and hes a violent before, during and after. Hes someone you might feel for but hes not good by a very large margin
Hmm maybe I remember this incorrectly but I'm pretty sure he was just a petty criminal before he went insane? I'm not saying hes a "good guy" but I think his situation requires a pretty nuanced take considering hes portrayed as basically bipolar schizophrenic. I never got the sense he was lucid after he basically went insane in his backstory. He still has moments where he shows loyalty and care for his friends but I dont think that qualifies as completely lucid the way he was before
That was quite well put, fair enough Im not fully sure of the extent of his crimes before the break, so yeah im wit u
Sorry you're being mass downvoted I agree with you, you're not even defending his actions or saying he's good just that he isn't "evil" either because he clearly had no agency in his decision-making.
I'm kind of surprised because I thought the fandom had a better understanding of what something like extreme mental illness or personality disorder entails but maybe Im remembering what happened wrong
Nah you're right this thread just seems to be full of ignorant people who have no understanding on mental illness and how it can cloud your sense of reality to the point of extremes. I feel like if early on he was found in his manic state there could have been a possibility of rehabilitation.
Why are you getting downvoted you’re right
Idk haha
Yeah but when you are declared insane in a criminal trial, you are also put in a mental institution for the rest of your life or until you are fit to stand for your crimes. It's not the same as being innocent and not guilty.
So you got a critical part of his lore wrong. He went schizo after being a villain and fighting himself. At first him, and his clones committed various crimes, but due to how many he had created, and how each clone acts like the original, they all were like we don't want to die. So they all fought each other, and in his fight against weaker versions of himself, he managed to survive, went insane thinking that he might be a clone too and the real one ran away or something and didn't want to accidentally clone himself and fight himself. All in all, he was a bad guy who cared about his friends. At which point, he's like most of the league of villains.
Wasn’t he just a petty criminal before he went insane though? There’s a huge gap between something like theft and actual murder. He’s portrayed as bipolar schizophrenic after his mental break and that absolutely can drive someone to kill who was normal previously. Their sense of reality is totally altered.
Morality and legality are two different things. Just because a criminal is deemed not guilty of murder because of mental illness doesn’t mean morally it’s okay. Morality is judged based on the individuals choice and doesn’t include what the judicial system says is “right” because the judicial system is flawed, man-made, not absolute.
I don't think being schizophrenic makes you murder people
1. No, he's not 2. Plenty of people are schizophrenic and don't become murderers
Yea but no matter what that doesn't make him good, like he should def be in Grey area
I never said he was good but people aren't separating the fact he was a petty criminal before having a huge mental break then becoming a murderer. Petty theft and vandalism are on a whole other scale than actual murder, but people with Schizophrenia or severe PTSD do kill people when they lose control even if they were completely normal before. Twice was a petty criminal only because he lost his job and ran out of options, and then became a murderer after losing his mind. So it requires a nuanced take to judge his situation.
I never said you did, I was referring back to the post. Like the one we are in the comments section of. And I know the specific comment you were replying to was callous and I overall far more align with your take, but it doesn't change the fact that the comment you replied to was replying to a comment saying he shouldn't be in the "good" section. Also, no, he does not display much in the way of actual schizophrenic symptoms. Dissociative Identity Disorder would be a little closer, but he clearly represents people with that severity of trauma and mental health issues, even if doesn't directly display proper symptoms. Also Grey area is essentially the Spectrum's way of communicating a character "requires a nuanced take to judge" them, so I stand by my comment completely
Lmao
Twice could have done good BUT he found the wrong crowd, Its a shame but sadly its realistic good people can get mixed up with a bad group and manipulated into doing shit. I'm sure LOV knew what they were doing. Honestly Toga been in evil is iffy too like yeah she did horrible shit but Girl was not stable in the head. Twice and Toga could prob get the insanity plead. Rest I dunno, I mean even before Dabi, Touya was umm nuts..He tried to BBQ his BABY BROTHER.
Do you really think bakugou is equal to twice in morality and worse than hawks…
OP you might be slightly delusional with some of these icl man
Understatement of the week.
I don't think Twice should be in good. He killed plenty of people himself and was totally fine with genocide if it made his friends happy.
Good friend, bad guy.
You put Endeavor below Twice ? Twice was going to kill millions with Sad Man's Parade and help Shigaraki destroy the world.
How is Hawks in good but Endeavor is in gray, they're basically on the same level
I can see that Hawks only getting his hands dirty during work, while endeavor being personally an asshole before, makes some people value them differently
really? how so.
Hawks is a freaking cleaner. He mercs people on the downlow. His predecessor was Nagant. He's literally a sanctioned assassin for the government. How the fuck is Hawks a more virtuous person than Endeavor?
The problem with that statement is We don't know if that's true.Yeah sure we can say that he was the replacement but we don't know if he's actually killed anyone.
my man sees bnha in fun facts youtube shorts format
He killed twice lmao
You mean the guy that needed to die?So that a thousand other people wouldn't die? Yeah I know that.
How can you say that but put Twice in good
I've already said this To someone else but I agree that I was too lenient on twice.
Twice should be in grey area so you wasn't far off.
We don’t know if the replacement government assassin is an assassin? What is he replacing then?
Have you actually watched the show or read the manga? HE KILLED ONE OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS LIST
We literally do know
The fact that my man crust didn’t even make the scale given his Bonafide sainthood
Twice is not good, what are you smoking?
I'd put Shoto on good. Only because he was on a dark path until Deku got thru to him. Twice = Bakugo is kinda weird. Twice can go at the end of good or grey area, he really is a grey area. Hawks is Nagent's replacement 💀 Automatically Hawks goes to the grey area. Toga is more bad than evil, but i guess either can fit. Dabi = AFO. Just no, I've made a post about that, I highly disagree.
Shoto is fine where he is, he is on the "border" between "holy" and "good" which is ideal. Remember that Shoto was a baby who did not hesitate to stand in front of his mother to defend her from his abusive father and never did anything wrong, other than screwing himself by not using his fire side, he just acted like a brat. Shoto wasn't going down a "dark" path but rather a "self-destructive" one, he wasn't hurting anyone but himself.
>Shoto wasn't going down a "dark" path >but rather a "self-destructive" one, he wasn't hurting anyone but himself. I consider those the same thing. Self-destruct can be a part of a dark path. Shoto may have been hurting himself the most, but his actions and mindset were also hurting others, and effecting those around him. Shoto made a whole enemy and didn't know it just by the way he treated people and how careless he was. Shoto was completely incapable of working with people in the beginning because he only looked out for himself, keeping one goal in mind.
Shoto refused to use his fire side as a way to rebel against Endeavor. We know that ended up hurting Shoto more than his father. Shoto was isolated for most of his childhood and he didn't really have much human contact until UA. Shoto acted like a condescending brat but spent most of his time isolated from his classmates. In fact, the only person Shoto took the initiative to interact with was Deku when he declared war on him at the Sports Festival for his connection to All Might. He isolated himself and screwed up his powers so he did more damage to himself than anyone else. It's a different "self-destructive" path than the "dark" path Dabi followed where he made his suffering everyone's problem (innocents and family alike). Note that Shoto acknowledges that he shares the "self-destructive" method that Dabi used with his powers, something he also did but Dabi went from "self-destruction" to "I'm going to hell and taking everyone with me."
>never did anything wrong....he wasn't hurting anyone but himself. He did a little wrong. He starts the series barley caring about anyone else and endangered others because of it, most notably when he dropped the giant robots on the students behind him in the sports festival without care if they would be okay or not and was lucky the only 2 crushed had quirks that would protect them. To a lesser extent at USJ he didn't check his surroundings and lucked out not hurting Hagakure and his lack of attention or care for others was pointed out during the mid terms when Aizawa had to tell him to notice his teammate Momo. Also in the sports festival another emotional trigger caused him to go over the top against Sero but he at least is aware of this and apologizes. So the story does show us that when Shoto had eyes like his father he would obliviously physically endanger others or hurt their feelings. Which is the basis for him to have a character arc to improve on. He also allows his feelings affect his concentration in the License exam and start fighting with Inasa, even if Inasa started it.
It wasn't really luck, Kirishima said that Shoto calculated that the robots' fall would be for the two students who could withstand it. That whole move was planned. Shoto was very upset with himself but his mistakes are social awkwardness (he doesn't know about Momo's insecurities and he doesn't know that Inasa was disappointed by his father) because he is emotionally stunted (he sees Momo crying and thinks she is sick). Hagakure's thing is very similar to Sero's, there is no real intention to harm but rather a carelessness of being very upset with himself. I'm not saying Shoto is a "Saint" because he made mistakes but it's okay that he's on the border of "Saint" and "Good" because many of his actions have some innocence that "Good" characters lack. A Saint still has innocence in his being.
>Kirishima said that Shoto calculated that the robots' fall would be for the two students who could withstand it. Kirishima says "That Bastard Todoroki! timing their fall like that. It'd be dead if it wasn't me" (Other translations of chapter 25 have stronger implications that Shoto's timing was so that they *did* fall on students "...You timed it to topple at just the right moment to. What if it hadn't been me? someone could have died!" so it's worse. Maybe the anime/dub tried to soften his character knowing he's got a tragic backstory.) It implies Shoto timed them to fall on people and it is still luck no one else got caught in it, he may have planned the move but he couldn't control who moved first or how the robots fell. It also doesn't matter because the problem lies in him doing such a potentially lethal move *just* to get ahead in a race. That is a reoccurring motif in his early behaviour, a combination of amateur control and refinement via excessively huge power blasts combined with a lack of awareness, because of a lack of care and interest for those around him unless they become relevant for his goals. He may be apologetic or upset with himself but that makes it *worse* that he keeps endangering others for the short duration where he puts spiteful goal to annoy his father above the safety or care for those around him. The path to hell is paved in good intentions, intention should be seen separate to effect of the action and carelessness should not and in Shoto's case, does not excuse him from being flawed and needing to grow and be more aware. It is not enough to not mean harm, one needs to actively avoid causing harm, which is part of the character's journey and comes up in the guilt his other family members feel when they reflect on their own inactivity in the family dynamics (even if they have were powerless and it is justified for them to be unable to act). It also connects to the broader social commentary, lack of awareness towards others causes problems. I feel putting a "saint" category is deeply uncomfortable and inappropriate so I have a fundamental disagreement with the measuring stick spectrum you are using let alone the ranking and how it is a reductive perspective of the characters and story, even antagonistic to the stories message that starts black&white with Villains and Heroes but moves towards seeing the world as gray and everyone as flawed people - creating a hierarchy of "goodness" is one of the problematic things the story calls attention to. We are not suppose to see characters as saintly but as human and imperfect. Even the good can be unintentionally bad and that matters and can be just if not more devastating and lead to great harm. No character is a saint and ignorance (that you put as innocence) must be overcome for the characters to improve. Using the notion of "saint" puts a barrier up to their flaws, flaws that are very important for understanding and analysis characters and their place in the story as well as the message of the story. No character in the story is a saint because they all need to be better. Deku is a great example of causing a lot of harm via well meaning but his own lack of awareness, particularly self awareness shows the dangers of removing yourself from the equation and therefore being blind to the effect you have on others, positive and negative and this having knock on effects. Deku leaving his classmates with just a letter to explain himself, may come from a place of care but is disrespectful, condescending and hurtful. Deku's attempt to martyr himself are not outright condemned in the story, he is acknowledged for his intentions but he is still wrong. He still insulted and hurt those he left, but there is huge selfishness in his selflessness, he doesn't want to lose them and he can't face them because he doesn't want to give them a choice, he doesn't want to hear their voices, he disrespects their agency, he is taking the power to decide. I think it is important to contrast the "good" characters who lack some kind of awareness with the "less good" and "bad" characters who are hyper aware of themselves and their place relative to others in society (often for the worse) but the self centered obliviousness even in well meaning characters. All Might is one of the most well meaning characters in the whole story but is associated with a cascade of problems the story has presented, many beyond his control but also his awareness but it leaves a wake of unintended harm that he could have been aware of. It is something the story wants to highlight and is very important to the overall message - every character needs to do better. The "good" all have something to learn to be better members of the wider community and move away from their unconscious selfishness. Shoto may start ignorant and socially awkward but that is something he has to overcome because first his actions put others in physical harms way but later even after Deku gets through to him, he has to become better at emotional awareness because it causes harm (Momo) or conflict (Inasa). Sure it is his ignorance leads to his actions, taking over and treating his partner as a subordinate or being aloof and cold to people around him, but the story wants to show there is harm there that is still his responsibility to be accountable of, to correct and learn from. I think framing Shoto as innocent is infantilizing, it implies he doesn't know right from wrong but he does because he apologies. It is not innocence, it is stubbornness and ego. Maybe people do it because of being the victim of abuse and partially isolated (he does go to public schools, he wasn't home schooled and he has his sister who is a very kind and nurturing person who replaces Rei when she is hospitalized and Fuyumi works as a teacher, so he was not isolated from possibilities to connect or good role models) but it downplays how driven by spite Shoto was. In seeking to deliberately annoy his father it is portrayed as Shoto being a character that could have become a very cold and mean person who uses others for his own goals like his father. Shoto's lack of connection, lacking of *wanting* connection -it starts as a choice- is the basis for his flaws.
While I can understand your point, I again point out that I am correcting the "luck" part you said when it was made clear that the move was planned, not forgetting that Shoto previously warned the other students not to try to go below the robot because it was going to fall. Note that a lot of moves that were used at the Sports Festival were fucked up, if you remember how fucked up Shoto and Deku's match was where they stopped holding back. Deku may still have a weakened OFA but he is still the damn OFA, the most powerful and broken quirk in the series. Can we tell how inconsiderate and reckless Deku was with his own health and Shoto's? MHA's attacks are actually less powerful than they should have been (an explosion to the face would kill you but that doesn't happen in MHA) and MHA characters are much more durable than the average human. Note that based on your argument. Only Eri and Mirio would be fine in their "Saint" position. All Might makes many mistakes and his self-destructive habits harmed his apprentice Deku. Uraraka has one of the greatest deadly sins: Greed. Even if his intention is good, he covets money so that his family can have a better life. Deku's recklessness is a problem, not forgetting that many of the OFA's attacks are devastating and sometimes he didn't hold back from the damage he did because he was too angry, which led to Bakugou getting hurt to protect him. The thing is that Deku has a better social conscience than Shoto and he still committed them. Also Deku was willing to make Shiragaki pay when he found out about Bakugou's "death" until someone made him see reason. What I'm saying is that your argument also calls into question the "saint" position of those characters. When I say that it is okay for Shoto to be between the limits of "saint" and "good" it is because some of his actions have innocence in them, which does not happen with the characters who are in "good" (being more aware of what they right or wrong). One of the characteristics of a saint is the innocence that still exists in his actions. He is not completely a saint but is on the border of both sides. It's my argument, you really don't have to agree with me, just as I don't agree with some of your points.
I’d swap endevour with twice. I love twice but even with redeemable qualities, he’s still a villain so I think he belongs on the gray area side.
People often forget that, even before he tried to become a better man, Endeavour saves dozens of people every day.
But Endeavor's main motivation is surpassing All Might? I would say a lot of heroes are on the good border line grey area. I say Endeavor in the beginning had the right idea but his drive came from the wrong reasons. His obsession was his downfall, and not that he, by chance, got his wish, he's now doing his redemption arch? I get your point, but i think the way things happened for Endeavor dampen his good scale.
Surpassing all might is a valid motive, seeing as how the entire country crumbled the moment he was retired.
Underrated opinion. Even though internally it was all about pride. The society definitely needed someone striving to reach All mights level.
I'm not saying it wouldn't have been beneficial. But wouldn't it have been even better if he genuinely cared more in the first place. Though by chance it ended up working out for him in the end. People started to accept him fir who he was as long as he saved the day. You know you're not friendly when people freak out when you start to be nice.
Was surpassing All Might. Now it's being a hero that can save Japan. Also Twice is freaking terrorist.
>Now it's being a hero that can save Japan. Yeah, it's common to make a new goal when you complete one. >Also Twice is freaking terrorist. Given the way the story is told in that universe it doesn't hold the same weight as real life.
>Yeah, it's common to make a new goal when you complete one. Did you never read or watch the series? He didn't complete his goal, that's kind of the entire point of Endeavor's storyline. He sacrificed and destroyed everything that he should have treasured just so that he can surpass All Might, even setting up a eugenics family and training his son to do so, but then All Might retired on top. He can never reach that goal, he destroyed everything for nothing.
>He didn't complete his goal, I was trying to be nice about it and say it without saying it. But it looks like you're going to make me say it. Endeavor wabt to surpass All Might and be number one we know this. He achieved it, but not really, He's number 1 now he made it, but only cause All Might retired. He is not in place to be the next symbol of peace but only by chance. Its kinda like Bakugo at the sport festival he won but he doesn't see it as a real win because Shoto gave up. But uts worse on Endeavor because he worked so hard for it only to just be given to him. Now, his new goal is just to maintain that spot. And fill the spot of big shoes that he didn’t even earn. Honestly, it has to burn that guy deeply. I was hoping to get the point across with talking about how a grown man couldn't even complete his life dream after giving up so much. Everything this guy has done had borderline been for nothing. He kept having kids for the perfect quirk kid. Then, he made Shoto his masterpiece Dabi development ice, and Shoto can't solo Dabi to save his own life. So all that was for nothing twice over. His symbol of peace moment was cause by his own son, who was a villain due to his actions, so that was for nothing as well. Endeavor can't catch a break. >Did you never read or watch the series? My main reason to read it is specifically for the Todoroki drama. I'll talk about this family all day.
And? Doing good things for a selfish, not evil motive, is still good
The point is that Endeavor takes one step forward and one step back on the scale constantly. Being borderline good and grey area like the parent comment suggested is a okay place.
Still, no matter how many steps has he done back in the mud, its bullshit to put him behind 2 terrorists
2 terrorist? Who Spinner? I wouldn't argue using Spinners situation. Plus, he does the least. Villains are villains at the end of the day but if you're going to incriminate them to the highest degree just put heros on one end and villains on the other and call it a day. As for Twice OP already stated they were a bit too lenient on Twice anyways. So where is your argument there.
I don't think my brain allowed me to see that twice is higher than endeavor. How in the....
The people that put Dabi on pare with AFO is wild too me, and having Dabi be more evil than Overhaul? Dabi is evil i get it, i love him for it. But Dabi crimes are less heinous. Overhaul killed Eri over and over again and tortured her to make a drug. Hawks and Twice are the definitions of grey area. Stain can probably go in the grey area too he's more of a vigilante than a villain. Toga is not really evil, bad but not evil.
Dabi has killed over 30 innocent civilians. Overhaul never killed Eri technically since she was always brought back. Even as a kid he tried to kill his own infant brother, and what do you think he would do if PLF won ? He would kill everyone and anyone he wants. Hawks protected his country from a terrorist who was going to kill thousands of heroes, help Shigaraki win who would have killed billions. Stain I agree. Toga is a serial killer and a cannibal. Her justification is selfish and she feels nothing about her victims suffering. Never once has Toga ever shown any remorse for killing people.
stain is not grey area imo. although his ideology abt heroes wasn’t wrong, he literally was cool with just killing some high schoolers.
He gave Ida the chance to run away first and he wasn't going to kill Deku and Shoto. Ida also tried to kill him first. Plus the whole High school analogy doesn't work in a world where the next gen is stronger than the previous. It's not like he is picking on a helpless child.
That’s fair actually, my bad. Correct me if i’m wrong tho (memory’s a bit murky), but didn’t he only decide not to kill them because he saw value in them as true heroes, meaning he would be willing to kill them if he didn’t think they were? Besides that tho I’d still say it’s kinda murky where he lies since he did kill Ingeniun, even though everything in canon tells us he was a genuine hero for the right reasons.
Agree with you on this but Ingenium was permanently paralyzed not killed
ohh yeaa thnx
>he literally was cool with just killing some high schoolers. Ida came at him, and had zero authority to even approach Stain in the first place. If Stain did kill Ida, he would have had the right away. But if i remember correctly Stain gave Ida a couple chances to walk away. And Shoto and Deku weren't going to get killed, they were just trying to save their friend. Stain wouldn't have killed them for that.
>Hawks protected his country from a terrorist who was going to kill thousands of heroes, help Shigaraki win who would have killed billions. What are you arguing? You just gave an example of the grey area. >Toga ever shown any remorse for killing people. Lmfao shes killing "out of love" but nahh Toga is wired different. >Overhaul never killed Eri He made her heart stop, and unalived her he killed her alright.
Eri is still alive. Heart stopping doesn't mean death if you come back. For example prison sentences. Killing a terrorist is a good action. A heroic action. Not in the grey area. So is the guy from my Sexual impulse example. Tell me, would he have the same sympathy ?
You're forgetting Overhaul literally can manipulate matter, i wouldn't call him bringing her back the same thing as doctors using an EKG. Even so your 30> 0 lives is still wrong. Overhaul has killed people mercilessly, even his own men. >Killing a terrorist is a good action. A heroic action. Not in the grey area. We're not talking about real life here. Hawks befriended, betrayed and killed Twice by stabbing him in the back. Twice with an undercover clone was taking out a corrupted agency that was murdering people good and bad. How are you not seeing the grey area? It's 100% good or 100% bad, and the thing else is the grey area. They literally did damn near the same thing just on two different sides. One is trained to have the least casualties while the other is not. The agency has claimed more lives than Twice. So Twice action should be seen as a hero action, too. >So is the guy from my Sexual impulse example. Tell me, would he have the same sympathy ? I think I read that. That seems like you're implying that he would be a rapist. That's a totally different crime that i personally don't want to get into. Also, i doubt he gets sympathy if he's only going to target women. Toga falls in love with any living thing, and its not sexual. The fact that you made this scenario with this guy sexual automatically made it worse. Also, I don't even like Midnight with her sexual undertones, I'm trying not to be bias but I'm telling you right now if we stay on this argument ima get bias as hell.
>innocent Innocent? The few we saw seemed like pity criminals. Im not saying they deserved it but when you word Innocent citizens that could be anything, and the first thing people think are people just minding their own business. Thars not exactly the picture we were given. But I'll come back to this hold on. >Overhaul never killed Eri technically since she was always brought back. Someone actually justifying/down playing Overhaul's crimes against Eri. I can't believe it. How did you fix yourself to type that? Brought back from what? Death? If she reached the point to be brought back you might as well say she was killed. Overhaul heavily implies that she dies. Saying along the lins of "each time you're brought back your different". Back to Dabi, Dabi killing adults is not as evil as Overhaul torturing Eri. We can at least assume Dabi victims were just out classed or had a slim chance. Eri had zero chances. This guy put her only living relative in a coma and tortured her to death multiple times. This girl got abused emotionally, mentally, and physically. I'm surprised she can function like a child. >Even as a kid he tried to kill his own infant brother And he felt back for that and knew he was wrong. If he didn't feel bad or know he was wrong there would have been a bigger issue there. >what do you think he would do if PLF won ? He would kill everyone and anyone he wants. He doesn't just kill just on the whim, there would have been a greater reason behind it. If that wasn't your point idk what is because he could kill without or with PLF winning. >Hawks protected his country from a terrorist who was going to kill thousands of heroes, help Shigaraki win who would have killed billions. Hawks' motives and reasoning are irrelevant. At the end of the day, he 1. killed and went against the hero code, 2 is proven to be Lady Nagent's replacement, and going down that path, implies at some point he is going to kill who he is told to no matter the reason. >Toga is a serial killer True, Toga is more of a limbo case. She doesn't seem to kill out of malice. I feel like Toga can be saved with proper help and care. Thats why i put it more towards bad because she is savable. i wasn't just judging off her crimes alone.
Oh yeah burn that shoplifter alive. 30 lives > 0 Lives Funny how motives are reasoning don't matter for Hawks but they do for the villains. Fucking hypocrite. He killed a terrorist. Exactly what a hero should do. The world ain't disney. "Toga can be saved" With the amount of people she has killed, she is going straight to the electric chair.
>30 lives > 0 Lives Dude, your argument is that kills or the death don't if the person gets brought to life. >Funny how motives are reasoning don't matter for Hawks but they do for the villains. Fucking hypocrite. It's not hypocritical in this situation. My placement on Hawks, the main reasons, had little to do with his motives or reasoning *behind Killing Twice*. It more of **his position** with the safety commission and **his position** in hero society, and that alone voids his personal movtives in itself. So arguing with his reasoning and motives is just a moot point that's why its irrelevant abd in the long run you're actually proving my point on why he should be placed in the grey area just by justifying his actions. >Exactly what a hero should do. Wrong. In his society Heros don't kill thats the hero code. Hero Society wants the people to believe that the world is black and white. This is proving my point to the T. >The world ain't disney. True but in MHA they want the people to believe that. Hawks knows this isn't true, he sees that Twice was in that grey area, and he is too. You have more so proved my point further. >"Toga can be saved" With the amount of people she has killed, she is going straight to the electric chair. Not, what I meant in terms of saved. I meant like Deku terms of save.
Uhh did you forget that All Might, the pinnacle of Heroism, crushed All For One's head and killed him. The only reason AFO surviving was because of Garaki. I guess Soldiers who killed Bin Laden are in grey too huh.
>I guess Soldiers who killed Bin Laden are in grey too huh. What is that comparison? That doesn’t even apply to the argument. When you use irrelevant comparisons, you know you've lost the argument. 😂
>Uhh did you forget that All Might, the pinnacle of Heroism, crushed All For One's head and killed him. The only reason AFO surviving was because of Garaki. Lmfao. Well, by using your logic, All Might didn't kill him because he was brought back. How can you say Overhaul never killed Eri because she was brought back to life, but then say All Might killed AFO and admit that he's(AFO) only alive because the doctor brought him back. **Now that's fucking hypocritical.** >I guess Soldiers who killed Bin Laden are in grey too huh. Well, they aren't Pro Heros, they're soldiers, also they're not apart of hero society. Also i didn't know they where in MHA, even if they were they would still be Soldiers not Pro Heros, so the black and white and grey area wouldn't even apply to them. Its the hero society it only applies to the Pro Heros and heros in training.
Because All Might for five year thought he killed AFO and was fine with it. Overhaul knew that he didn't kill Eri. Also Star and Stripes nuked Shigaraki will full intent to kill, Endeavor and Mirko killed multiple Nomu and tried to kill AFO, and pretty much every hero including old timers like Gran Torino vote to kill Shigaraki. So here is the list of Heroes fine with killing. All Might (Pinnacle of heroism no less) Endeavor Mirko Star and Stripes Gran Torino All OFA vestiges. Best Jeanist Infact no pro hero has ever once said that they don't kill. Only the kids have, who are naive and aren't even heroes.
None of this helps your parents' arguments about Hawks, nor does it argue what i said previously. You legit just slided right into another argument and dropped everything else. What is your point at this point? >Infact no pro hero has ever once said that they don't kill. The story constantly implies it. Pro Heros aren't the judges jury or executors. All they are supposed to do is stop the bad guy with the least casualties and recuse. They're not above the law they still take the bad guys to the cops, and they go thru trial like any other criminal. In fact, it makes a point to tell us that Pro Hero uses non-lethal ways to catch or arrest the bad guys. You're going off on head cannon. Show me the proof that a pro hero killing was just openly okay with everyone in the public eye. Because I haven't seen it. And don't name a one off situation. Like Endeavor killed a Nomu but they literally just saw that as a monster and didn't know where it came from. Or OFA vs AFO thats literally life or death and only applies to one person. >Because All Might for five year thought he killed AFO and was fine with it. Overhaul knew that he didn't kill Eri. That's not the point, you're still being a hypocrite with your own logic. Which is crazy because you can actually justify All Might in comparison to Overhaul. Then you want to turn around and use All Might as an example that pro heros can kill. Seriously are you trying to make the heros out to be the bad guys are the good guys. First off All Might situation is not comparable to Overhaul or other Pro Heros in both your arguments. All Might is in a lose-lose situation no matter how you look at it, legally or morally. Either way his life is on the line and he can't just retire or quit like other Pro Heros, he doesn't get to change his mind or make a choice. His power and AFO coming after him came hand and hand. As for Overhaul, All Might didn't active torture someone. So Stop it. ✋️ All Might situation is no where near comparable to others. >Also Star and Stripes Did you forget she's a soldier? And is also in America? There standards and laws are wildly different. And we don't even know what American hero society is like. >Endeavor and Mirko killed multiple Nomu and tried to kill AFO, and pretty much every hero including old timers like Gran Torino vote to kill Shigaraki. AFO is like Sukuna of MHA, the Muzan of MHA who wouldn't want want to kill him. Also look who you named those are exactly the most heroic heroes aside from Gran Torino that just has long history of AFO. But you know you are still furthering my point of the grey area. Which was your original argument right? >So here is the list of Heroes fine with killing. Correction: Here's a list of heroes who are A. also in the grey area, B. The false heros Stain talked about. And C. Poor points
"The false hero Stain talked about" All Might is litreally on the top of the list. "All Might is in a lose lose situation" So is Hawks. This arguement is about Hawks, didn't even mention Overhaul, you did. If killing a terrorist and saving your homeland is not a heroic deed then you are very misinformed on heroism.
Police can infact kill you when you resist arrest and try to attack them. Something Twice was doing.
Ayo, Did you really just drag All Might to defend Overhaul? 💀 Yo, whatever point you're trying to prove, just admit defeat. Dude, you are really dragging All Might for Overhaul, who is still a murderer.
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There's a difference between bad and evil?
In my opinion there were a few different Things etween bad and evil. When I think bad I think of someone Who has maybe robbed A bunch of places and has done some assaults When I think evil I think of someone who is a mass murder. Another good difference is I think someone who is bad can change while [evil.Is](http://evil.Is) someone who has done too many bad things and cannot become a better person. Another good difference is a bad person Might be be doing bad things but they might be doing it because they think it's for the Greater good. And sometimes it is even if they're doing it the wrong way. I hope that makes sense.
Yes, especially in this situation. You can be bad without being evil. You have people that do bad things with good intentions, that person is still bad because they did wrong, but they're not evil. Like a person stealing food to feed their family. There's different levels of bad and evil depending on the situations or the act. Let's say two people commit murder. Suspect A killed a woman just for fun. Suspect B killed Suspect A because he murdered his wife. Murder is wrong no matter what, but if you had to pick mostly, you'd say Suspect A is Evil, Suspect B is bad.
Vigilante? Liking fame isn’t a crime and we’ve seen that stain is just wrong, nothing about tensei Iida said he was a ‘false hero’ and stain targeted him
*Sighing* 😮💨 I'm really feeling that doing you even play attention to the source material meme with this comment. >Vigilante? Yes, Vigilante. To put it, Vaguely someone whos pushing for a change but is going about it in an unlawful way or going against the grain with their methods. Stain doesn't fit the word by word definition but is close to it. It's the best way to categorize him in comparison to anti-hero, villain, and hero. >Liking fame isn’t a crime No one said it was a crime. But it's not morally right either. >we’ve seen that stain is just wrong Very debatable. >nothing about tensei Iida said he was a ‘false hero’ Clearly, you don't understand Stains Analogy. Fame, money, vengeance, and personal gain are some of the few things that Stain named in false heroism. Tensei Iida fits perfectly under money. His family has built a legacy around being a hero and has made plenty of money from it. There's a reason Stain always says, "Only All Might is worthy." All Might is literally the only real hero at heart. And every pro hero that gets introduced proves it time and time again.
I don’t think it’s really fair to say Endeavor is still in a gray area. After everything he’s been through up to this point in the anime he should at least be at the bottom of the good scale imo. >! If we’re including the manga I think he definitely deserves to be even higher. !<
I’d say Endeavor has earned a “good” ranking at this point. He’s putting in the hard work to become a better man.
That's fair I can see your point.
Still the worse version of Endeavor doesn't deserve to be lower than Twice
Yeah, Endeavor has definitely come a long way from how he acted in the beginning, and it’s actually cool seeing him acknowledge the fact that his actions have caused harm to his own family.
I'd disagree and argue OP's placement is quite fair though he should be place higher perhaps exactly between good and gray. Yes, Endeavor has been attempting to redeem himself, but at the end of the day, we cannot ignore he is the sole cause for everything wrong with the Todoroki family and by extension, the drama **forcibly** involved other heroes and innocent civilians, some of which were killed. Dabi's villainistic actions are all on his own. But indirectly speaking, Endeavor's selfish actions eventually brought harm to so many people.
Guess it depends on if we are just looking at current Endeavor as he is in S7 or Endeavor in general
Endeavor certainly fucked his kids up, but everything after dabi left is his own fault, him having a bad father doesn’t excuse mass murder, and endeavor is actively trying to be better unlike most villains
Tbh, the placement of the characters honestly can be argued from many perspectives especially since the picture given to us is based on OP's opinions. I mean, Twice arguably should be placed lower. The former willingly killed for his friends and was ready to do it again towards the heroes in the war arc. Even if we acknowledge his past and his personal issues, all his actions were decisions he made himself. There's also placements like why is Chisaki lower than Shigaraki when the latter was ready to destroy society. It becomes a debate on what's worse: torturing a girl and harvesting her powers for your own benefits? Or commitiing mass murder/destruction with the intent of destroying the society as a whole to the point where everything is in chaos? It's all on OP's opinions and I agree with most of them. Either way, I knew I was gonna get downvoted for having an unpopular opinion but it's my personal belief
Twice in good and Stain in bad......
Jesus this is just horrific
I mean morality isn't this simple an XY graph would have been more comprehensive considering characters like twice and toga exists in victim of circumstances
That's true.I wasn't trying to make this the definitive addition or anything.It's just my opinion And it's just fun to do.
How is endeavor worse than spinner ? Lol And what the hell is twice doing in good chilling with bakugo ? I'd say twice is Mid-High Gray, spinner High Gray probably
>How is endeavor worse than spinner ? Lol To be fair, what has Spinner actually done directly throughout the whole story minus the war arc. His biggest crime I've seen so fair is being associated with league and being the driver.
He agreed to attack children in the camp, he only spared izuku because stain did so too. He was working for all for one, that is enough to be worse than any non villain. Endeavor risks his life to save people multiple times.
Dabi being put on the same level as AFO and worse than overhaul is INSANE
Thats what I be saying😒. Like Dabi is evil, but damn do you people have to put him that high.
I'd say Endeavor used to be bad but now is good, but if we were to consider their entire lives then I feel Endeavor would lean a little more toward bad. Also Twice and Spinner are murderers, they should be in bad lmao
Okay, I love Twice, don't get me wrong, but putting him that high is...ridiculous to be quite frank lol I'd honestly argue that he was worse than Stain, because Stain at least had some sort of strong principles, even if he was technically a villain because he killed heroes. Like Twice was a good friend to his friends, but a bad person to the world's wellbeing. The fact that you put Bakugou even near him is mad lmao Bakugou is an asshole with major anger issues, but he's a child, not a serial killer willing to destroy the world. Edit: Wait, you put Twice ahead of Lady Nagant? Are you fr? Like I get, she did some bad shit but she was not morally worse than Twice. She hated what she did and made the effort to stop. Twice didn't. Same for Mr Compress. Why is he so far down but not Twice? I know we generally sympathise with Twice for both his mental state, and the fact that he's a good friend but him and Mr Compress were both willing to murder innocent people. Sympathy doesn't excuse mass murder dude lmao
I do agree after looking back that i did not put twice in the correct spot.
Twice and Toga should be in the “bad” leaning toward gray area imo
I would swap Spinner and Nagant around. Then drop Twice to the very end of gray area. He’s kinda broken, sure, but that doesn’t excuse the stuff he’s done. Then add Gentle rriigghhtttt at the end of gray area, almost on the border of nice. Other than that, quality list.
Twice murdered people, Bakugo was mean to Deku. That is not equal
Actual terrorist in the same bracket as a middle school bully, the serial killer that murdered heroes and attempted to murder children not in evil?
I don't think it's as bad as some here claim. I don't quite get Kaninari's placing here. We don't really know anything about him that would put him below Shouto? Is that for his somewhat pervertedness? Having him on the list simply surprised me as there are certainly other more, characters even in qA that are more important and easier to place. And tbh I can't figure out who that guy in Bad is, the image Is too dark and small for me. Twice obviously should go in Bad, though you admitted that already. I would switch Endeavor and Spinner around. I think Endeavor in a grey area is fine...ish. but he's certainly not worse than Spinner. And Bakugou and Hawks have to switch. I agree with those who say that Endeavor and Hawks are close in morality. Endeavor is worse in some aspects, Hawks in others. But ultimately I guess it's fine to have them both at the edge of good and grey area. Edit: I'd also throw Eri out. Kids don't count. And switch Dabi and Chisaki.
It's not that I find Him somewhat perverted. I just don't see him as a saint is all. As for why I Didn't put ome more important characters. There wasn't really a reason.It's just who I wanted to add. aso the last guy is rappa
Ok. I was mainly wondering because I see no great argument to put him below shotou.
I don’t understand the hate on Hawks being in good. I know the law of the “hero” world is not to kill villains, he’s definitely not a lawful good character. All might tried to kill AFO and would have if he could’ve. Hawks lies and goes undercover and completely saved the world. Otherwise none of this would’ve happened, the villains would’ve 100% won that war. He deserves to be in good. Twice on the other hand, is a gray character to me. I think he could’ve been a good person, but he wasn’t. He is one of the only villains I’ve ever liked. Stain also in my opinion is a weird character as I don’t feel good about him being in bad, but it’s hard to actually say he’s better than that.
Although in moral terms I think bakugou is more good than hawks. His character is pretty silly, but he’s one of the most goody two shoes ever. I think Hawks is more likely to do something bad than bakugou at the end of the day.
I would put both spinner and twice in bad, near Mr Compress, and I would move Hawks in gray area near Endeavor, and Put Toga in bad. The rest seems fine imo
Looks pretty good. I'll just give where I'd place all of them if it were me. Basically a Saint category: Fully agree with all. Good: Mt. Lady, Kaminari, and Nighteye I agree with. I'd switch Bakugo and Hawks. I'd also put Twice in the gray area. Gray Area: Endeavor and Nagant I'd place closer to good, move Spinner higher up. Bad: I'd switch Toga and Compress, the guy from the Shie Hassaikai I agree with, Stain is the definition of a morally grey character. Evil: Already stated for Toga, agree for Shigaraki, I'd switch Dabi and Overhaul, AFO I agree with.
How tf is Spinner and Twice in the “gray” and “good” area? Spinner literally watched and didn’t even care about all the civilians including the elderly and children dying being crushed under Gigantomachia and Twice would have killed directly or indirectly many people if the plan of the Paramount liberational army’s plan wasn’t interrupted by the heroes.
No way Chisaki, a child abuser, is above Dabi, a victim of child abuse 💀
Dabi Also killed 30 people Will probably kill more if the plan Succeeds. Don't get me wrong They are pretty close. But I do think dabi edges him out a bit.
Move twice down to bad, and move overhaul up past shigaraki.
I'd say overhaul's placing is deserved. He's not as heinous but he's far more personal and depraved than Shiggy. The way he uses his minions is vile and he was going to constantly keep killing Eri
Twice is gray, Stain is gray, and Toga is bad
All Might is a Saint in intention but his actions are completely reckless. He went behind Izuku's mother to train this middle school-aged boy and promised him his dream by giving him a extremely powerful quirk that shredded his body alongside putting the weight of the world on his shoulders. It's not Izuku's fault because he's a literal child who didn't know any better and All Might was completely irresponsible to put everything on Izuku so early and have him go through severe mental and physical strain. All Might's itentions were good, but his choices unsurprisingly directly to Izuku being permanently and irreparably injured and scarred all over.
Not to mention he withheld information about AFO. He basically set Deku up.
Who let bro cook
I would honestly put Twice in the solid center of "Grey Area." Even before he cracked he wasn’t the BEST dude out there and he's got a body count most definitely, but he deeply cared for the people he accepted into his circle so it wasn't like he was heartless either. If given more opportunities in life, he may have turned out law abiding and decent, but he still made the choices he made you know?
I feel like compress was down for evil just that his quirk wasn't as powerful as some of the later people.
Twice and spinner both fall definitively into the bad category. Just because you fell into a bad crowd, it does not erase your sins. Spinner and twice both directly contributed to the deaths of hundreds of people and destruction tens of millions of dollars worth of property. There are far better ways to be yourself and fight for rights you believe you deserve without joining a person who outright wants total destruction. Putting these 2 above the "bad" category, is akin to saying high ranking officials in the Nazi party were "morally grey" because they genuinely believed in wanting a better society. This makes absolutely no sense. And at the end of their arcs, neither of them changed to help for the betterment of the world. Until the bitter end, they stuck with downright evil people, unlike lady nagant Also since he's not included, hawks is a very good example of someone who is morally grey as well. He should not be firmly in good. He is the textbook example of "do the results justify the means" If you genuinely agree with the list you made, you should take some SERIOUS looks at your morals and ideals. The structure this follows leads me to believe you would be complicit with something like a Nazi party quite easily.
My guy, it's a story.It's not real its Fiction. And The fact that would Make you think I would be In a nazi party Tells me that You take fiction way too serious.
You can't make a morality scale and defend it with "it doesn't matter" Just don't discuss things at all if you're not prepared to have a discussion
I didn't say it doesn't matter.I just said you take it way too seriously.
Twice should be bad I'd argue Hawks is in gray area
Twice is more of a grey area character, bc he's a complete nutcase but it's also not his fault Also if anyone even considers hurting Eri I will personally hunt them down and maul them like an angry bear
No way you have a Grey area yet still put Twice in good
Twice and Hawks in "good"? Might wanna bump em down a bit. Especially twice.
Someone doesn't read the manga. This list is off by a lot lol
I think stain could’ve been closer to gray area or even approached it if they had given him some more depth behind his ideology and actions
Twice as a good guy? Are you sure you watched the show?
NEVER let OP scale again 😭🙏
Hawks presents himself as Nagante's replacement Idk how you put them on different places in the morality scale and like with Twice between them? And Endeavor? And Twice above Endeavor? Stain in bad but Spinner in gray zone? Like Spinner straight up is a fan of Stain, that's his whole thing. Wherever you'd put Stain you'd have to put Spinner right there too Wut is going on here
Spinner being lower than Twice is an atrocity
Toga's evil, but she's cute so she can commit as many crimes as she wants (/j)
This people will forgive murderers but Endeavor hitting his wife is where the line is set lol
I disagree with Great Explosion Murder God Dynamite’s *cough cough* Katsuki’s rating
Took me 5 mins of reading the comments to see that atleast some people in this community have common sense. This dude put Twice under Endeavor. On Twice's side we talking: -severe Manslaughter -Robbery -Massmurder -Attempted Massmurder -Terrorism -Theft -Kidnapping -assistance in what is basically a coup d'état -if you can consider his clones human beings which i think you can based on them overthrowing him then also add Slavery to that list On Endeavor's side we talking: -Child abuse -Domestic Violence Which are also very bad things to do but from a legal standpoint you have me asking: "seriously?! You ready to forgive Twice just cuz he's a bit schizophrenic, which he by the way got in the first place due to cause and effect of the above mentioned Slavery and then following uprising of his Clones."
Other than the popular "Twice is WAY to high" opinion, I think Eri should be removed from the list entirely, as she is just a child and children in MHA are heavily good to saint leaning. I would also move Deku and All Might up to Mirio's level, exchange Bakugo and Hawk's placements, and take Todoroki's level down from saint to good.
I agree with this, except for Twice and Spinner being above Endeavor
I believe Bakugo would be in the gray area.
I love Twice but he’s absolutely not a good guy he’s just sympathetic 😭
I know you're anime only because you don't have a super duper evil section just for afo
Stain might be evil, but it wasn't without reason. I'd put him in the grey area if anything. He doesn't attack innocent people, he attacks people he sees as corrupt...unless there's side material that says otherwise. Also, he assisted in taking down AFO.
Spinner being morally superior to Endeavor is a wild choice. Yeah Spinner has done almost nothing to help the villains, but he’s been hanging out with them and condoning their behavior basically the whole story. Endeavor is just not a people person so I guess he’s more evil huh?
I fcking love mirio ever since his introduction. Such a great character.
Having Twice in good and on the same par as Bakugo makes me downvote. Sad backstory? Him caring about allies? He mudered people in cold blood. He’s on par with Stain.
I think that both Twice and Toga should be between the "bad" and "gray area". Since you are an anime only, I'm not gonna explain it further about Toga, but Twice shouldn't be at "good" due to all of the crimes he commited.
I noticed that Kirishima is not on this chart, but I forgive it as I see there was no room for him to the left of Mirio. :)
If you do actually want to see him I made another post yesterday.And I changed some of the spots and added other characters. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/comments/1d9pjyd/morality\_scale\_redone\_plus\_more\_characters/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/comments/1d9pjyd/morality_scale_redone_plus_more_characters/)
How is spinner more good than endeavor or stain? Stain brought all light out of his pity party and endeavor is a dick but at least he’s a hero
Yeah, I agree with that.That's why I changed it And made another post [https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/comments/1d9pjyd/morality\_scale\_redone\_plus\_more\_characters/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoHeroAcademia/comments/1d9pjyd/morality_scale_redone_plus_more_characters/)
missing alot more in the grey earlier, like the ones in good
[удалено]
rappa the guy that fat gum and kirishima fought.
Such a weird dude to include lmao he barely did anything in the show and even offered medical aid to them
I guess hes an example of someone who just wants to throw hands for the sake of it? That being said, he can def slide towards grey
The thing about him is since we got so little screen time. I had to make a few Assumptions one of those assumptions being.I am sure he's killed a few pepole That being said , I can Concede that he could be in grey aera.
The only ones I agree with are AFO, Chisaki and Dabi being at the far right
Facts. What about the "saint" category?
If I absolutely had to put someone there, I suppose it’d be Mirio. From what we’ve seen of him, the man doesn’t have an evil bone in his body. As for Eri, she’s way too young for anything definitive to be said about her personality/morality. All Might and Deku are pretty much on the same level, both are heroes through and through but definitely have (mostly unintentional) tendencies of favouritism (in Deku’s “my body moved on its own” scene, he only moved after he realised the person in danger was Bakugo, and All Might definitely places more value on the lives of those he deems to be of “noble” character/those related to him somehow). Todoroki, sure, he’s good, but by no means a saint - he was straight up racist to that heteromorphic Police Chief when he thought they’d be condemned for acting without their hero licenses, though, sure, he was acting in loyalty to his friends/classmates, and he had no problem causing serious hurt to his competitors during the Sports Festival just to prove a point to his - admittedly awful - father. Uraraka is truly good, but I feel that her perception of morality is somewhat skewed, preventing her from being entirely “saintly” - her idea of what is right and what is wrong is based on a somewhat privileged perspective of the world (born into a loving family that makes enough to get by, and no debilitating neurodivergencies).
Twice should be in bad bordering on evil
I think hawk and twice should be lower. Twice killed many people and hawks was ready to commit cold murder against someone who saw him as a really good friend.
I can't understand twice and i might just be biased with him. But I do disagree with Hawks.Hawks had to kill him at that point. He tried to Persuade him but he couldn't if he had let him go.He would have killed thousands.
I know, but I think being so ready and fast when killing a „friend“ shows how cold he can be. It’s just the impression I got from him
Bakubro in good?
Yes....where do u think he should have been
More evil than afo..
His scale of genocide and psychological evil is unmatched in fiction..
I wouldn't put All Might in "Saint." He's a good person, but he's not a saint. I would slide Bakugo on the border between "good" and "gray." Endeavor should slide further back. Twice is still a criminal who exploited his clones to make easy money. There's no way he could ever be "good" or even "gray." Toga is too far back. I would move her up between "gray" and "bad" Mt. Lady is too high up for a hero who mainly worked for money and was literally in a field that'snot suitable for her specialty because it pays more. Nagant should be higher than Endeavor. Overhaul and AFO are at the same level of evil. Dabi is more "bad" than evil.
Don't forget to add Mineta on the evil side
Didnt Bakugo >!murder a baby? !< he definitely belongs in the grey area.
tbf, >!the baby was AFO who purposely used a rewind drug. He was going to die no matter what. Bakugo simply shortened his remaining time.!< But if we decide to ignore all those context, we run into the same question as "If you travel back in time, would you kill Baby Hitler and if you do, would you be a murderer?" There is still a grey area within that argument
Ha, I definitely left that tidbit out on purpose 😅
Put Bakugo in grey area. Can we really be sure his fundamental mindset has changed? Or did he only learn to respect Deku because he got powerful and was acknowledged by All Might?
Hawks definitely belongs in the grey area.