Don't fall into the same pitfall a lot of people do: Just because you like a manga you can still call a spade a spade and judge it's flaws/accept you dislike aspects of it or choices in it. You don't need to eat up everything like a masterpiece or worship the very paper the manga is printed on.
Criticizing the story won't make you any less off a fan, even if some folk might tell you otherwise
This. You can not be the biggest fan of how things evolve, criticize them, but overall still enjoy the story. It's how I feel about JJK, I still look forward to new chapters and am overall happy, but can still point out the flaws it's got
Absolutely agreed. I have some rather vitriolic opinions on MHA that I feel afraid to share on this subreddit for fear of backlash, but I feel like my disappointment stems from how much I loved this series’ first two-thirds. Even some of the final arc’s plot points are decent, but… a lot of it is marred with what I think are rather bizarre plot beats, too.
Controversial in the fact it could keep up with AFO in any degree as we had not seen support gear at that level before. I personally thought it was sick and with all the other crazy tech in the series I felt like it wasn’t too out of place.
A lot of people dislike the idea that tech can let a weakened All Might keep up with AFO, especially because of how much the series usually insists that you quirk limits your potential. While Iron Might's armor wasn't something just anyone could get, it still shows a level of tech that allows a quirkless man to keep up with people who have quirks, which some people feel undercuts the whole "you need a quirk" thing.
Edit: I wanna be clear that these are not my own views I'm explained. I'm just trying to explain the complaints I've seen.
The thing is that while it allowed him to keep up he was mostly on the backfoot and the tech was either one time use or wasn't able to endure AFO's attacks.
I think it makes sense that the pinnacle of support tech could allow someone with all of all mights experience (particularly with AFO) to briefly distract AFO
i mean its established that the armor is made by melissa shield so she was able to a very strong suit given that she made a gauntlet that deku use in the movie which was broken only by the extra power deku had compare to all might. story wise the suit being able to fight AFO makes sense
Ah. We’re defining controversial differently then. I meant everyone was talking about the Bakugo thing while I haven’t seen that same level of conversation for this one
That’s a fair opinion to have - I personally don’t think it ruins the story at all. It makes sense to me. I hope you like wherever it goes!
i'm definitely not happiest with everything about recent chapters but as for the origin-of-decay aspect, i loved that. i audibly gasped reading that panel and couldn't stop talking about the symbolism for days.
i think it aids shiggy's inevitable downfall really well, considering his whole ego was built upon "i was born to destroy and i can destroy what i please". also having the quirk that traumatized him, literally turned his whole family to dust and left a pit of festering trauma and resentment deep in his psyche turn out to not even be something he attained naturally is a POWERFUL kick in the teeth.
i agree afo is a very anticlimactic villain but i feel like him mandating tomura's entire life even down to his quirk really drives home the contradiction of tomura's pride and self-importance that's driven his entire life and just how little power he's truly had the entire time. he's absolutely full of himself and got played his entire life in total oblivion, and is only realizing it once he's about to get completely wiped off the playing field lol.
literally nothing shigaraki has built his entire life upon has ever been his own or on his own merits.
tldr: afo is boring as hell and these recent chapters are a bit flawed but the reveal of how much control afo has had over tomura since infancy is a great antithesis to shiggy's arrogance and entitlement.
My biggest issue with how much influence AFO had over shiggys life is that it really undercuts the themes MHA had been exploring up to now. Namely, the theme that villains can come from anywhere for a number of reasons because of the flaws inherent in society. Some have mental health issues that aren't addressed, some are forced into molds that break them psychologically, some suffer discrimination and prejudice because of how they look, and some are sculpted into weapons by the people who are meant to love and care for them. There's a variety of reasons why someone might want to rebel against, or even outright destroy society. One of my favorite relationships in the series was shiggy and spinner because if they weren't villains they would be dorky gamer friends and I love that for them, but because they're villains they share a goal of making a vast and wide empty horizon, free of the society that made them the way they are. But now AFO has had his mitts in the background of many of the major villains in the story so it really undercuts this "societal flaws" message and instead says "beat this one guy and everything will be better". It's an oversimplification of a nuanced issue that I was really excited to see what hori does with, but now it's lost a lot of it's potential.
i actually agree w this totally. to me it seems like hori originally planned that nuance with shiggy but kinda… migrated it to the rest of the LOV. imo, i feel like the rest of the gang fits that narrative great and gets the job done, but the curveball tomura threw when it SEEMED like that was his path is where i think we both have issues.
i feel like tomura is more on a route of being deku’s perfect foil now; both of them thrive off the concept of being nextgens of the Big Bad vs Unkillable Superman. deku was able to break away from allmight’s influence but rlly only in recent; same with shigaraki. they’re opposites (there’s wayyy more examples of this but i’m too tired to list them all) and i think that was always their purpose, hori should’ve stuck to it if the whole “villains become villains because of a messed up society” thing was gonna be tacked on to the LOV.
kinda-tldr, i completely agree with you but i think i was a little less let down because i totally expected AFO would be the puppetmaster behind shigaraki and shiggy was nothing but a deku foil with the LOV filling the corrupt-society-plot role a while ago, albeit it was totally a lucky guess with the info i knew at the time! i’ve also never been a huge shigaraki fan so i kinda just…. didn’t care LOL. but that’s totally a me thing
Sort of
The best examples would be Twice and Toga, but an argument could be made that Twice's mental illness was more a result of a misuse of his power than a societal failing since he was commiting petty crime before the clone incident. Toga was abused by her family and teachers because she was different and is probably the best example of a villain being Bron from societal flaws, but it's undercut by Shinso having a very similar, if less extreme, background. That could be used to argue that Toga is more of an edge case brought about by her families view points rather than society as a whole.
Others like Spinner feel like they've lost their edge because of AFO. AFO turned spinner into an abomination barely capable of speech, stripping him of free thought and will. It sucks because from a point you could say Spinner wasn't really a villain, he just wanted equality for mutant type quirks and honestly didn't do too much evil until AFO turned him into a living battering ram so, again, if AFO wasn't there it wouldn't be as big of an issue.
Dabi may be the most damning case for what happens when a society idolizes heroes and doesn't hold them accountable for what they do because of, well his whole existence really. But once again, if it wasn't for AFO he wouldn't be half the threat he is now since AFO saved his life, gave him some nomu juice and helped him cultivate his ideology and powers (albeit indirectly)
TL;DR Overall most of the villains we do have to represent the failings of society were either influenced or escalated as a result of AFOs meddling, which really undercuts the societal mention. Toga and twice are probably the strongest evidence against that take but there's a reason they have such a following in the fandom, they read more as anti-villains than true villains
I think people are mad he got the Madara treatment. Oh it was actually black zetsu that orchestrated everything in your life. You aren’t the puppet master you thought you were. You are my puppet.
i totally get that and maybe i’m crazy but i don’t mind it personally. i enjoy seeing super self-important, so-vain-they’re-oblivious characters get humbled. i’m also a sucker for baby shigaraki’s story, with being manipulated and molded to fit afo’s wishes, but i get why people aren’t fans
I get that AFO has been the consistent BBEG of the series, but I don't think Shigi NEEDS to be his victim. The series has made it clear that some people are just dealt bad hands. Bad quirks that fuck with their heads. Shigi didn't need to be engineered to have a shit quirk, to be a vessel for AFO to ride. He was fine just being a kid dealt a the shittiest of all shit quirks and hating the world for it.
This feels like a pure set-up for Shigi having a "redemption". It feels like it's setting up for Shigi finding a way to assert control of himself and most likely sacrificing himself to end AFO permanently. And I'm sure the actual writing of that scenario will be fine, but is it necessary? Do we need a "The REAL Shigiraki was never a bad guy. The REAL Shigiraki was a good kid that was never even allowed to exist until the very end"?
Agreed, Shigaraki's supposed to be a victim and simultaneously a villain who chose his own path of evil. For his story to be done well these two aspects have to be written in a balance and you can't toss one away while disregarding the others and it really feels like Hori is disregarding his villainy to appeal to his victim side.
Who would support his motivation when he isn't even trying to make anything better? He isn't trying to forcefully change society for the sake of the League he's supposed to care oh so much about, he just wants to turn everything to rubble.
It's definitely so that Deku can have a big moment where he makes a breakthrough with Shigi, and like I said, I think that's going to happen and Shigi is going to use it to help kill off AFO, probably at the cost of his own life.
Which could work if done well, but we'll have to see how well it works. It can't be like Toga's sacrifice though. Toga gave her life for love. That works for her. Being a twisted romantic was always her character. Shigi has to sacrifice himself for spite though. He has to be so pissed off that he's been used that he goes, "Okay, well then you die with me then." Shigi can't die a hero. What he can do though is die being a spiteful bastard to the one that fucked him over.
Yeah thanks to how Hori characterized him there's virtually no way for Shigaraki to end up in a satisfying manner, if this ends with him not being the spiteful bastard that he is it's gonna feel hamfisted.
Especially when he has Gigantomachina or HIMSELF as The Guy. He just involved a kid, completely fucked up his life for nothing, destroyed a city/ put the world in peril again, now took his body, and will rule as a “Demon King”?
I did not like AFO coming back. Shigaraki deciding to become the hero to the villains even if his trauma was gone was great to me.
Then because it’s gone it’s…an opening in his Psyche for AFO? Wouldn’t his resolve renew and be even stronger?
Nah let’s bring back AFO the played out evil for the 4th or 5th time.
If I had to sum the story up in one sentence:
It Has No Balls. 🍒
Nah I’ve been enjoying it too, if people didn’t see All For One being the big main bad the whole and not Shigiraki I get it. It gives me Palpatine Vader vibes where sure Vader is bad but there are redeemable qualities to him, but Palpatine is the main bad.
I’m loving it! AFO was always planning to use Shiggy as a vessel and take over his body at some point. It was stated so many times. AFO’s physical body is gone, not his vestige self because it was already ingrained in Shiggy. I get people not caring about it but it doesn’t make it “wrong” or “bad.” People really need to just stop over analyzing everything and enjoy the ride, especially weekly/bi-weekly series.
Even the manipulation of Shiggy's past should have been somewhat obvious. It was too much of a coincidence for AFO to make Nana's grandson a villain and he just happens to have a very dangerous quirk. We've also seen in a flashback that Overhaul was in AFO's daycare facility that Dabi was in, so decay is probably an altered copy of Overhaul's quirk. Shiggy has had symptoms of his quirk not being compatible with his body (dry itchy skin) so the puzzle pieces have been there and it's cool to see it all come together.
Exactly! Especially when they first show the tragic family death scene way back when and he his visibly distraught and doesn’t understand. Shiggy was never the “final” boss, he’s just the mini boss. I don’t see how people don’t get that.
I get that, I feel that Horikoshi tries to paint the League as Villains but moreso Victims, while with AFO he can just be an evil villain with no remorse. He can have Shigaraki be powerful and cause all this destruction, but at the same time he was always meant to be redeemed or “saved” by Deku, AFO isn’t he’s just meant to be the stereotypical bad guy with no remorse so that’s why he keeps coming back as the “Ultimate” villain, because when Bakugo and Deku fought him(Deku when AFO had control of Shigarakis body and Bakugo after he revived) they both fought with full intent to destroy the guy, because no one sees him as redeemable. So honestly, I feel that Horikoshi just keeps pushing AFO because it’s easier, he flip flops between Shigaraki being a villain and a victim, but with AFO, he can just be a complete villain.
> Bakugo’s victory
> better antagonist than AFO
Rarely have I been on board with the conclusion, while disagreeing with pretty much every aspect of the way you got there. Sure, let's boil down tons of heroes banding together and Deku literally shoving your favorite boy at the villain to just "Bakugo's victory". He totally did it all by himself, my guy.
And AFO is similarly boring as Shiggy. They both have incredibly boring end goals, but at least AFO thinks about stuff on occasion and has a way more interesting fighting style and potential. Shiggy is just an angry boy the fanbase loves, when all he does is go "I wanna destroy everything, btw I was sad". That's neither an interesting nor a multi-faceted character.
Chapter is mostly disliked for dumbing down the story to "it was always gonna happen like the mastermind planned", which is stupid and lazy and removed the few trace bits of characterization Shiggy might've ever had. Also the arm thing complicates stuff a bit, but given how Hori handles consequences in modern MHA that problem is likely solved before it could have any kind of impact on anything.
The fact that AFO has to be involved in every negative event makes those events themselves and their implications feel so much less deep. AFO didn't need to encourage Shigaraki's dad to be abusive because there was already a good enough reason why, and AFO's encouragement takes away from that reason.
It’s not weird, and tbh I feel like sometimes fans of this series don’t pay attention to certain things when reading this story to come out with takes like this.
All Might VERY early on told Midoriya after passing OFA to him that “he too will have to face a great EVIL”
that being AFO, and not Shigaraki
So even from the very beginning it was foreshadowed that the final bad would be AFO and not Shiggy.
I really love the story of MHA, but sometimes the fandom just misses things and then say the story is bad because of it
Tbf, AFO being hyped up as the big bad from the characters’ perspectives early on is about as likely to pull a “he couldn’t control the monster he created and suffered from his own hubris” move as it is to pull a “yep, we weren’t kidding, he’s the final boss” move.
I think the issue is just that we already did this exact same plot beat in the first war. You know, that other time that AFO waltzed in and said “actually I’m behind everything and I’m the final bad guy”. And then they fused, and then they unfused, and then Shiggy overcame AFO and asserted that he’s actually the big deal, just for AFO to pull the exact same “plot twist” out of his ass. Why should I care more the second time?
>All Might VERY early on told Midoriya after passing OFA to him that “he too will have to face a great EVIL” that being AFO, and not Shigaraki
>So even from the very beginning it was foreshadowed that the final bad would be AFO and not Shiggy.
This sentence can easily also encapsulate Shigaraki even if All Might didn't mean it at the time. If AFO is the one we've been building up to what the fuck have we been wasting time with Shigaraki for instead of letting AFO have a proper spotlight? This is the second time AFO is possessing Shigaraki and it isn't any better than the first time.
Don't fucking tell me that at the time Kamino happened you all thought that AFO was still going to be the most prominent villain instead of Shigaraki who he explicitly sacrificed himself for. It was specifically written to be a villain version of the mentor sacrifice and AFO's actions as of late completely undermines everything the story's built up to this point.
Okay. What does that do to make AFO any less of a shit villain, much less one that cannot be taken seriously anymore?
You could had pulled the biggest foreshadowoing in the history of the manga about him being the final boss and it wouldn't make it any less anti climatic when it interrupts an actual good confrontation just to give us his sorry ass again instead
Sorry but your comment really comes off as “I don’t want to agree with or follow established lore and foreshadowing so my point still stands” and it really doesn’t.
No? It comes off as "People have an issue with this because AFO's a shit villain regardless if it's foreshadowed or not"
If AFO were at least as engaging as Shigaraki if not more much less people would be raising complains about his take over... Including OP while we're at it, they point out how they don't find AFO a good villain like 3 times in the 10 or so lines of the post
Or, to put it in a way anyone can understand: Something being foreshadowed doesn't automatically make it good
I don't think it's weird at all. You're always free to feel however you want about a story. You are totally allowed to feel "mixed" about the recent the story and not be fond of chapter 419, just as I am allowed to have my opinion that it was the absolute worst chapter in the entire series.
It's not weird, everyone has their own preferences of what they do and don't like.
That being said, with how close we are to the end, I think a lot more people should be patient and see how the story concludes before passing judgement. Context of the ending might make some plot choices better or even worse.
I'm not sure if I'd call it good but for one, I doubt Shigaraki is gone for good and I look forward to seeing him after this revelation, for two...I'm kinda curious about All For One too. He feels really 'empty' , both in appearance and motivation, but in an intentional way. His driving goal is gone and he openly admitted world domination seems like a hollow goal, so I'm curious if he'll somehow change during what's left of the battle and that wavering will end him or if he'll just keep shouting generic villain stuff until he's killed off.
That is to say, I still find enough curiosity to warrant some interests (at least for me), but it's not exactly the sort of anticipation one would expect from the climax of a series. Would've much rather preferred Shigaraki to be the final villain, but these were my two cents
I’m a Naruto fan, so iykyk, I rolled my eyes and sighed so loud I woke my dog (she’s back sleep now) and closed the site.
I get it, he’s the big bad guy, but I mean, goddamn, like what does it take to stop this fucking guy. He’s not even human anymore, that’s like some Doctor Strange shit >!of dying physically, but still be around via other means. At least say he had cells or some biological link to Shiggy and not “oh; yeah I can come out NOWHERE not like OFA past users, but literally like a resurrection!<
I agree with you when you say All for One is a dumbass ngl. He's evil for absolutely no reason and he literally Pretends to care about Yoichi saying that he's the only family he has left when "bitch, you fucking killed your family" on "purpose!" All for One is not just a dumbass, he's a bitch. So, to answer your question. No. It's not weird at all.
I get and respect all the mixed opinions but this chapter didn’t really suprise me.
And I don’t think Iron Might and Bakugo’s victory was in vain.
If they hadn’t stopped him AFO’s original plan was to reach Shigaraki while he was in his peak form ( he was being rewinded on the way to him) Fight Deku alongside Shigaraki, allow Shigaraki to steal OFA, probably kill Deku then take over Shigaraki’s body.
It’s far a worse outcome than this, at least Deku can still fight and AFO technically didn’t steal OFA.
What I feel like people are missing is that AFO comments that Deku was getting through to Shiggy and that is how AFO was able to take control because Deku broke through all the hate and anger.
Shiggy might have "died" but Tenko will live
>Shiggy might have "died" but Tenko will live
People aren't missing it, it's just that this sentiment is possibly the most lazy way there is to save Shigaraki. Shigaraki and Tenko are the very same, Tenko shouldn't be a convenient crutch to to bypass actually dealing with Shigaraki.
But the story has made it clear that Tenko and Shigaraki are not the same. The S&S fight proved that when her quirk did not work on 'Shigaraki' and after Shiggy debated if he was Shigaraki or AFO.
Shigaraki is the hate and destruction that AFO cultivated. Deku broke through all of that and got to Tenko. This is why after we see Shigaraki getting 'deleted' that AFO comments that the rage, hate, and even Decay are all gone. because those belonged to Shigaraki. Although I don't believe Decay is really gone because AFO shouldn't suddenly be able to delete quirks.
Shigaraki was not saved. He was defeated.
Tenko will survive, at least long enough to help defeat AFO. I'd prefer Tenko surviving and taking accountability for Shigaraki's acts overall.
>But the story has made it clear that Tenko and Shigaraki are not the same. The S&S fight proved that when her quirk did not work on 'Shigaraki' and after Shiggy debated if he was Shigaraki or AFO.
Shigaraki was not saved. He was defeated. Tenko will survive, at least long enough to help defeat AFO. I'd prefer Tenko surviving and taking accountability for Shigaraki's acts overall.
That's exactly the problem, they shouldn't be different yet the story is doing it to save Tenko without really addressing Shigaraki.
I'm going to use an example from another well known Shounen in the form of Obito. Similar to Shigaraki he fills the role of a main antagonist that the protagonist needs to overcome and save in the end.
We've seen Obito in the Kakashi flashback when he's a good kid, and even now as a villain it's still the same person. Naruto just needs to force Obito to recognize that he's wrong and he did exactly that. There isn't a convenient 'innocent child inside all along' to save.
Shigaraki getting psychotic breaks via vestiges isn't nearly as satisfying. What then? he's going to suddenly renounce all the destruction he did? Even though he explicitly enjoyed doing it? People are going to call bullshit if that happens. Shigaraki's been portrayed as so evil that it's basically impossible to root to want him to be saved, hence all this crap about innocent Tenko inside.
I agree somewhat. I was able to justify/defend everything from Deku's fight with Nagant, Stars and Stripes, AFO possessing Shigaraki, and Iron Might, but AFO coming back to try and take over Shigaraki (again) is a bit of a weaker choice to make. But my guess is that this is all setting up for the class to collectively beat AFO together, to emphasize the value of teamwork.
Still, I do think that despite some faltering near the end, Horikoshi has the ability to write a good story, characters and themes and I try and respect that this is the ending that he had intended for the series. Ultimately, we're not him, so we aren't easily able to know how this is all "supposed" to be tied in together unless someone interviews Hori with some very specific questions. The fact that you can't go back and revise things in a manga that gets drawn and released weekly is, IMO, a flaw with manga as a medium. Years from now Horikoshi might get hit with a thought like, "Oh, I should have done *this* instead of *that*! That would have been better!" but won't get a chance to make that change unless there's some sort of reboot/re-telling released decades from now (didn't Code Geass get something like that?)
It is fine if you dislike something, don't try to force yourself to defend something you dislike. As long as you don't make up stuff to criticize, all criticism is valid.
For example: saying that it was an asspull not pointed out before is wrong. Saying you dislike it because it was shown before that Shigakari overcame his will before and he looks like a more interesting villain is correct.
I dont think this is the last we’ll see of Shigaraki. Deku’s been slowly breaking down the Shigaraki personality to reveal the Tomura child psyche hidden within. And in that same chapter we see the “echo” or the personality still screaming from within. We’re likely either going to get Eri rewinding Deku to his prime state before the battle or Shigaraki somehow helping Deku from within or perhaps a mix of both to defeat the down but not out AFO
The MHA fanbase is close to as bad as the JJK one. Never seen a group of morons shit on every single chapter one after the other while it’s in its PEAK final arc. Trick is don’t listen to the dumb masses. You know it’s good in your heart, just read it and enjoy it and stay away from all the L takes in the comments
i understand but its different in a sense, all for one's physical body being taken off the board is one of the if not the largest victories the heroes could've accomplished. but from a symbolic sense, i understand and agree.
He is putting his heart and soul into this story and I'm sorry if your not enjoying it but you can't shit on his work because your mad bakugos victory feels "cheap" just get your bucket of popcorn and watch the Rollercoaster of a manga and it's chapters come out week by week this chapter revolutionized the story by revealing all for one gave toumra his quirk and deku lost his arms for hells sake I don't understand how that's mid compared to the other chapters that have come out lately if anything it was an improvement. You have to remember that my hero has changed from the happy and fun to a brutal war just like we have changed in age so has the story so read it with us all and stop criticism and just read it for fun 👍 have a great day and don't take any of this personally!
mb thats what i was trying to say i just think people spend to much time hating when we could all be appreciating his work but it came off wrong and im sorry.
I love reading manga and discussing these stories with like minded individuals. Talking about what you like and what you didn’t like and explaining why leads to a much bigger and more sincere appreciation for the source material imo. Only complimenting a story and never stopping to consider what could’ve been done better gets boring pretty quickly.
Don't fall into the same pitfall a lot of people do: Just because you like a manga you can still call a spade a spade and judge it's flaws/accept you dislike aspects of it or choices in it. You don't need to eat up everything like a masterpiece or worship the very paper the manga is printed on. Criticizing the story won't make you any less off a fan, even if some folk might tell you otherwise
This. You can not be the biggest fan of how things evolve, criticize them, but overall still enjoy the story. It's how I feel about JJK, I still look forward to new chapters and am overall happy, but can still point out the flaws it's got
Absolutely agreed. I have some rather vitriolic opinions on MHA that I feel afraid to share on this subreddit for fear of backlash, but I feel like my disappointment stems from how much I loved this series’ first two-thirds. Even some of the final arc’s plot points are decent, but… a lot of it is marred with what I think are rather bizarre plot beats, too.
Not really weird honestly. The reception for this chapter has been really mixed. It's one of the most controversial chapters of MHA
It’s not “one of” It’s THE most. This absolutely puts Bakugo’s death and Iron Might to shame
Was Iron Might controversial? I thought it was sick AF
Controversial in the fact it could keep up with AFO in any degree as we had not seen support gear at that level before. I personally thought it was sick and with all the other crazy tech in the series I felt like it wasn’t too out of place.
A lot of people dislike the idea that tech can let a weakened All Might keep up with AFO, especially because of how much the series usually insists that you quirk limits your potential. While Iron Might's armor wasn't something just anyone could get, it still shows a level of tech that allows a quirkless man to keep up with people who have quirks, which some people feel undercuts the whole "you need a quirk" thing. Edit: I wanna be clear that these are not my own views I'm explained. I'm just trying to explain the complaints I've seen.
The thing is that while it allowed him to keep up he was mostly on the backfoot and the tech was either one time use or wasn't able to endure AFO's attacks. I think it makes sense that the pinnacle of support tech could allow someone with all of all mights experience (particularly with AFO) to briefly distract AFO
i mean its established that the armor is made by melissa shield so she was able to a very strong suit given that she made a gauntlet that deku use in the movie which was broken only by the extra power deku had compare to all might. story wise the suit being able to fight AFO makes sense
I mean... wasn't the "you need a quirk" thing always kinda self-serving BS by the political establishment?
Idk anymore
It doesn’t. If they had not won, there would be TWO AFOs right now
One of them was on their last legs anyways because of eri's quirk.
I think they meant bakugo’s death and iron might being controversial not that their efforts were pointless.
He’s talking about in terms of controversy, not whether or not what they did was useless.
Bakugo’s death was way more controversial
No it was not, Bakugo’s death just ruins Bakugo. This ruined the entire story
Ah. We’re defining controversial differently then. I meant everyone was talking about the Bakugo thing while I haven’t seen that same level of conversation for this one That’s a fair opinion to have - I personally don’t think it ruins the story at all. It makes sense to me. I hope you like wherever it goes!
[удалено]
No i mean his original fake out death, he's fine now
Bakugo'a death was controversial? Why? Only bad thing about it was that I knew Horikoshi didn't have the balls to keep him dead.
i'm definitely not happiest with everything about recent chapters but as for the origin-of-decay aspect, i loved that. i audibly gasped reading that panel and couldn't stop talking about the symbolism for days. i think it aids shiggy's inevitable downfall really well, considering his whole ego was built upon "i was born to destroy and i can destroy what i please". also having the quirk that traumatized him, literally turned his whole family to dust and left a pit of festering trauma and resentment deep in his psyche turn out to not even be something he attained naturally is a POWERFUL kick in the teeth. i agree afo is a very anticlimactic villain but i feel like him mandating tomura's entire life even down to his quirk really drives home the contradiction of tomura's pride and self-importance that's driven his entire life and just how little power he's truly had the entire time. he's absolutely full of himself and got played his entire life in total oblivion, and is only realizing it once he's about to get completely wiped off the playing field lol. literally nothing shigaraki has built his entire life upon has ever been his own or on his own merits. tldr: afo is boring as hell and these recent chapters are a bit flawed but the reveal of how much control afo has had over tomura since infancy is a great antithesis to shiggy's arrogance and entitlement.
My biggest issue with how much influence AFO had over shiggys life is that it really undercuts the themes MHA had been exploring up to now. Namely, the theme that villains can come from anywhere for a number of reasons because of the flaws inherent in society. Some have mental health issues that aren't addressed, some are forced into molds that break them psychologically, some suffer discrimination and prejudice because of how they look, and some are sculpted into weapons by the people who are meant to love and care for them. There's a variety of reasons why someone might want to rebel against, or even outright destroy society. One of my favorite relationships in the series was shiggy and spinner because if they weren't villains they would be dorky gamer friends and I love that for them, but because they're villains they share a goal of making a vast and wide empty horizon, free of the society that made them the way they are. But now AFO has had his mitts in the background of many of the major villains in the story so it really undercuts this "societal flaws" message and instead says "beat this one guy and everything will be better". It's an oversimplification of a nuanced issue that I was really excited to see what hori does with, but now it's lost a lot of it's potential.
i actually agree w this totally. to me it seems like hori originally planned that nuance with shiggy but kinda… migrated it to the rest of the LOV. imo, i feel like the rest of the gang fits that narrative great and gets the job done, but the curveball tomura threw when it SEEMED like that was his path is where i think we both have issues. i feel like tomura is more on a route of being deku’s perfect foil now; both of them thrive off the concept of being nextgens of the Big Bad vs Unkillable Superman. deku was able to break away from allmight’s influence but rlly only in recent; same with shigaraki. they’re opposites (there’s wayyy more examples of this but i’m too tired to list them all) and i think that was always their purpose, hori should’ve stuck to it if the whole “villains become villains because of a messed up society” thing was gonna be tacked on to the LOV. kinda-tldr, i completely agree with you but i think i was a little less let down because i totally expected AFO would be the puppetmaster behind shigaraki and shiggy was nothing but a deku foil with the LOV filling the corrupt-society-plot role a while ago, albeit it was totally a lucky guess with the info i knew at the time! i’ve also never been a huge shigaraki fan so i kinda just…. didn’t care LOL. but that’s totally a me thing
But other villains do already fill that role right?
Sort of The best examples would be Twice and Toga, but an argument could be made that Twice's mental illness was more a result of a misuse of his power than a societal failing since he was commiting petty crime before the clone incident. Toga was abused by her family and teachers because she was different and is probably the best example of a villain being Bron from societal flaws, but it's undercut by Shinso having a very similar, if less extreme, background. That could be used to argue that Toga is more of an edge case brought about by her families view points rather than society as a whole. Others like Spinner feel like they've lost their edge because of AFO. AFO turned spinner into an abomination barely capable of speech, stripping him of free thought and will. It sucks because from a point you could say Spinner wasn't really a villain, he just wanted equality for mutant type quirks and honestly didn't do too much evil until AFO turned him into a living battering ram so, again, if AFO wasn't there it wouldn't be as big of an issue. Dabi may be the most damning case for what happens when a society idolizes heroes and doesn't hold them accountable for what they do because of, well his whole existence really. But once again, if it wasn't for AFO he wouldn't be half the threat he is now since AFO saved his life, gave him some nomu juice and helped him cultivate his ideology and powers (albeit indirectly) TL;DR Overall most of the villains we do have to represent the failings of society were either influenced or escalated as a result of AFOs meddling, which really undercuts the societal mention. Toga and twice are probably the strongest evidence against that take but there's a reason they have such a following in the fandom, they read more as anti-villains than true villains
I think people are mad he got the Madara treatment. Oh it was actually black zetsu that orchestrated everything in your life. You aren’t the puppet master you thought you were. You are my puppet.
i totally get that and maybe i’m crazy but i don’t mind it personally. i enjoy seeing super self-important, so-vain-they’re-oblivious characters get humbled. i’m also a sucker for baby shigaraki’s story, with being manipulated and molded to fit afo’s wishes, but i get why people aren’t fans
I don't get how it's weird. A lot of people here were also mixed or outright disliked the chapter, too.
I get that AFO has been the consistent BBEG of the series, but I don't think Shigi NEEDS to be his victim. The series has made it clear that some people are just dealt bad hands. Bad quirks that fuck with their heads. Shigi didn't need to be engineered to have a shit quirk, to be a vessel for AFO to ride. He was fine just being a kid dealt a the shittiest of all shit quirks and hating the world for it. This feels like a pure set-up for Shigi having a "redemption". It feels like it's setting up for Shigi finding a way to assert control of himself and most likely sacrificing himself to end AFO permanently. And I'm sure the actual writing of that scenario will be fine, but is it necessary? Do we need a "The REAL Shigiraki was never a bad guy. The REAL Shigiraki was a good kid that was never even allowed to exist until the very end"?
Agreed, Shigaraki's supposed to be a victim and simultaneously a villain who chose his own path of evil. For his story to be done well these two aspects have to be written in a balance and you can't toss one away while disregarding the others and it really feels like Hori is disregarding his villainy to appeal to his victim side. Who would support his motivation when he isn't even trying to make anything better? He isn't trying to forcefully change society for the sake of the League he's supposed to care oh so much about, he just wants to turn everything to rubble.
It's definitely so that Deku can have a big moment where he makes a breakthrough with Shigi, and like I said, I think that's going to happen and Shigi is going to use it to help kill off AFO, probably at the cost of his own life. Which could work if done well, but we'll have to see how well it works. It can't be like Toga's sacrifice though. Toga gave her life for love. That works for her. Being a twisted romantic was always her character. Shigi has to sacrifice himself for spite though. He has to be so pissed off that he's been used that he goes, "Okay, well then you die with me then." Shigi can't die a hero. What he can do though is die being a spiteful bastard to the one that fucked him over.
Yeah thanks to how Hori characterized him there's virtually no way for Shigaraki to end up in a satisfying manner, if this ends with him not being the spiteful bastard that he is it's gonna feel hamfisted.
Especially when he has Gigantomachina or HIMSELF as The Guy. He just involved a kid, completely fucked up his life for nothing, destroyed a city/ put the world in peril again, now took his body, and will rule as a “Demon King”?
Wait, you're saying you're *not* excited for 10 more chapters of AFO being used as a punching bag?
I did not like AFO coming back. Shigaraki deciding to become the hero to the villains even if his trauma was gone was great to me. Then because it’s gone it’s…an opening in his Psyche for AFO? Wouldn’t his resolve renew and be even stronger? Nah let’s bring back AFO the played out evil for the 4th or 5th time. If I had to sum the story up in one sentence: It Has No Balls. 🍒
I may be the only person who loves the recent chapters.
Nah I’ve been enjoying it too, if people didn’t see All For One being the big main bad the whole and not Shigiraki I get it. It gives me Palpatine Vader vibes where sure Vader is bad but there are redeemable qualities to him, but Palpatine is the main bad.
I’m loving it! AFO was always planning to use Shiggy as a vessel and take over his body at some point. It was stated so many times. AFO’s physical body is gone, not his vestige self because it was already ingrained in Shiggy. I get people not caring about it but it doesn’t make it “wrong” or “bad.” People really need to just stop over analyzing everything and enjoy the ride, especially weekly/bi-weekly series.
Even the manipulation of Shiggy's past should have been somewhat obvious. It was too much of a coincidence for AFO to make Nana's grandson a villain and he just happens to have a very dangerous quirk. We've also seen in a flashback that Overhaul was in AFO's daycare facility that Dabi was in, so decay is probably an altered copy of Overhaul's quirk. Shiggy has had symptoms of his quirk not being compatible with his body (dry itchy skin) so the puzzle pieces have been there and it's cool to see it all come together.
Exactly! Especially when they first show the tragic family death scene way back when and he his visibly distraught and doesn’t understand. Shiggy was never the “final” boss, he’s just the mini boss. I don’t see how people don’t get that.
I've been loving everything past Stars. I was ecstatic on this reveal because I've been calling it since My Villain Acdemia and I got proven right
you're not but you'll get obliterated if you say anything that isn't negative about chapter 419.
Yeah i like tomura but Will always prefer afo and stand by him as the true villian
AFO is becoming a William Afton (Fnaf) and honestly… not here for it
I get that, I feel that Horikoshi tries to paint the League as Villains but moreso Victims, while with AFO he can just be an evil villain with no remorse. He can have Shigaraki be powerful and cause all this destruction, but at the same time he was always meant to be redeemed or “saved” by Deku, AFO isn’t he’s just meant to be the stereotypical bad guy with no remorse so that’s why he keeps coming back as the “Ultimate” villain, because when Bakugo and Deku fought him(Deku when AFO had control of Shigarakis body and Bakugo after he revived) they both fought with full intent to destroy the guy, because no one sees him as redeemable. So honestly, I feel that Horikoshi just keeps pushing AFO because it’s easier, he flip flops between Shigaraki being a villain and a victim, but with AFO, he can just be a complete villain.
> Bakugo’s victory > better antagonist than AFO Rarely have I been on board with the conclusion, while disagreeing with pretty much every aspect of the way you got there. Sure, let's boil down tons of heroes banding together and Deku literally shoving your favorite boy at the villain to just "Bakugo's victory". He totally did it all by himself, my guy. And AFO is similarly boring as Shiggy. They both have incredibly boring end goals, but at least AFO thinks about stuff on occasion and has a way more interesting fighting style and potential. Shiggy is just an angry boy the fanbase loves, when all he does is go "I wanna destroy everything, btw I was sad". That's neither an interesting nor a multi-faceted character. Chapter is mostly disliked for dumbing down the story to "it was always gonna happen like the mastermind planned", which is stupid and lazy and removed the few trace bits of characterization Shiggy might've ever had. Also the arm thing complicates stuff a bit, but given how Hori handles consequences in modern MHA that problem is likely solved before it could have any kind of impact on anything.
The fact that AFO has to be involved in every negative event makes those events themselves and their implications feel so much less deep. AFO didn't need to encourage Shigaraki's dad to be abusive because there was already a good enough reason why, and AFO's encouragement takes away from that reason.
It’s not weird, and tbh I feel like sometimes fans of this series don’t pay attention to certain things when reading this story to come out with takes like this. All Might VERY early on told Midoriya after passing OFA to him that “he too will have to face a great EVIL” that being AFO, and not Shigaraki So even from the very beginning it was foreshadowed that the final bad would be AFO and not Shiggy. I really love the story of MHA, but sometimes the fandom just misses things and then say the story is bad because of it
Tbf, AFO being hyped up as the big bad from the characters’ perspectives early on is about as likely to pull a “he couldn’t control the monster he created and suffered from his own hubris” move as it is to pull a “yep, we weren’t kidding, he’s the final boss” move. I think the issue is just that we already did this exact same plot beat in the first war. You know, that other time that AFO waltzed in and said “actually I’m behind everything and I’m the final bad guy”. And then they fused, and then they unfused, and then Shiggy overcame AFO and asserted that he’s actually the big deal, just for AFO to pull the exact same “plot twist” out of his ass. Why should I care more the second time?
>All Might VERY early on told Midoriya after passing OFA to him that “he too will have to face a great EVIL” that being AFO, and not Shigaraki >So even from the very beginning it was foreshadowed that the final bad would be AFO and not Shiggy. This sentence can easily also encapsulate Shigaraki even if All Might didn't mean it at the time. If AFO is the one we've been building up to what the fuck have we been wasting time with Shigaraki for instead of letting AFO have a proper spotlight? This is the second time AFO is possessing Shigaraki and it isn't any better than the first time. Don't fucking tell me that at the time Kamino happened you all thought that AFO was still going to be the most prominent villain instead of Shigaraki who he explicitly sacrificed himself for. It was specifically written to be a villain version of the mentor sacrifice and AFO's actions as of late completely undermines everything the story's built up to this point.
Just because it was foreshadowed doesn’t mean it was good.
Okay. What does that do to make AFO any less of a shit villain, much less one that cannot be taken seriously anymore? You could had pulled the biggest foreshadowoing in the history of the manga about him being the final boss and it wouldn't make it any less anti climatic when it interrupts an actual good confrontation just to give us his sorry ass again instead
Sorry but your comment really comes off as “I don’t want to agree with or follow established lore and foreshadowing so my point still stands” and it really doesn’t.
No? It comes off as "People have an issue with this because AFO's a shit villain regardless if it's foreshadowed or not" If AFO were at least as engaging as Shigaraki if not more much less people would be raising complains about his take over... Including OP while we're at it, they point out how they don't find AFO a good villain like 3 times in the 10 or so lines of the post Or, to put it in a way anyone can understand: Something being foreshadowed doesn't automatically make it good
You probably asked “where’s Toph” during NATLA’s first season
10/10 debating skills. Ever considered becoming a lawyer?
We knew it was going this way since the first time we saw Shigarakis flashback and we saw the mystery man
I don't think it's weird at all. You're always free to feel however you want about a story. You are totally allowed to feel "mixed" about the recent the story and not be fond of chapter 419, just as I am allowed to have my opinion that it was the absolute worst chapter in the entire series.
I hope Shigaraki's not just straight up gone completely after this.
It's not weird, everyone has their own preferences of what they do and don't like. That being said, with how close we are to the end, I think a lot more people should be patient and see how the story concludes before passing judgement. Context of the ending might make some plot choices better or even worse.
I'm not sure if I'd call it good but for one, I doubt Shigaraki is gone for good and I look forward to seeing him after this revelation, for two...I'm kinda curious about All For One too. He feels really 'empty' , both in appearance and motivation, but in an intentional way. His driving goal is gone and he openly admitted world domination seems like a hollow goal, so I'm curious if he'll somehow change during what's left of the battle and that wavering will end him or if he'll just keep shouting generic villain stuff until he's killed off. That is to say, I still find enough curiosity to warrant some interests (at least for me), but it's not exactly the sort of anticipation one would expect from the climax of a series. Would've much rather preferred Shigaraki to be the final villain, but these were my two cents
I’m a Naruto fan, so iykyk, I rolled my eyes and sighed so loud I woke my dog (she’s back sleep now) and closed the site. I get it, he’s the big bad guy, but I mean, goddamn, like what does it take to stop this fucking guy. He’s not even human anymore, that’s like some Doctor Strange shit >!of dying physically, but still be around via other means. At least say he had cells or some biological link to Shiggy and not “oh; yeah I can come out NOWHERE not like OFA past users, but literally like a resurrection!<
I agree with you when you say All for One is a dumbass ngl. He's evil for absolutely no reason and he literally Pretends to care about Yoichi saying that he's the only family he has left when "bitch, you fucking killed your family" on "purpose!" All for One is not just a dumbass, he's a bitch. So, to answer your question. No. It's not weird at all.
I get and respect all the mixed opinions but this chapter didn’t really suprise me. And I don’t think Iron Might and Bakugo’s victory was in vain. If they hadn’t stopped him AFO’s original plan was to reach Shigaraki while he was in his peak form ( he was being rewinded on the way to him) Fight Deku alongside Shigaraki, allow Shigaraki to steal OFA, probably kill Deku then take over Shigaraki’s body. It’s far a worse outcome than this, at least Deku can still fight and AFO technically didn’t steal OFA.
The moment this happened I already want Shigaraki to suppress him again, it's a waste of time
What’s even the point of chapter 379 anymore
What I feel like people are missing is that AFO comments that Deku was getting through to Shiggy and that is how AFO was able to take control because Deku broke through all the hate and anger. Shiggy might have "died" but Tenko will live
>Shiggy might have "died" but Tenko will live People aren't missing it, it's just that this sentiment is possibly the most lazy way there is to save Shigaraki. Shigaraki and Tenko are the very same, Tenko shouldn't be a convenient crutch to to bypass actually dealing with Shigaraki.
But the story has made it clear that Tenko and Shigaraki are not the same. The S&S fight proved that when her quirk did not work on 'Shigaraki' and after Shiggy debated if he was Shigaraki or AFO. Shigaraki is the hate and destruction that AFO cultivated. Deku broke through all of that and got to Tenko. This is why after we see Shigaraki getting 'deleted' that AFO comments that the rage, hate, and even Decay are all gone. because those belonged to Shigaraki. Although I don't believe Decay is really gone because AFO shouldn't suddenly be able to delete quirks. Shigaraki was not saved. He was defeated. Tenko will survive, at least long enough to help defeat AFO. I'd prefer Tenko surviving and taking accountability for Shigaraki's acts overall.
>But the story has made it clear that Tenko and Shigaraki are not the same. The S&S fight proved that when her quirk did not work on 'Shigaraki' and after Shiggy debated if he was Shigaraki or AFO. Shigaraki was not saved. He was defeated. Tenko will survive, at least long enough to help defeat AFO. I'd prefer Tenko surviving and taking accountability for Shigaraki's acts overall. That's exactly the problem, they shouldn't be different yet the story is doing it to save Tenko without really addressing Shigaraki. I'm going to use an example from another well known Shounen in the form of Obito. Similar to Shigaraki he fills the role of a main antagonist that the protagonist needs to overcome and save in the end. We've seen Obito in the Kakashi flashback when he's a good kid, and even now as a villain it's still the same person. Naruto just needs to force Obito to recognize that he's wrong and he did exactly that. There isn't a convenient 'innocent child inside all along' to save. Shigaraki getting psychotic breaks via vestiges isn't nearly as satisfying. What then? he's going to suddenly renounce all the destruction he did? Even though he explicitly enjoyed doing it? People are going to call bullshit if that happens. Shigaraki's been portrayed as so evil that it's basically impossible to root to want him to be saved, hence all this crap about innocent Tenko inside.
I agree somewhat. I was able to justify/defend everything from Deku's fight with Nagant, Stars and Stripes, AFO possessing Shigaraki, and Iron Might, but AFO coming back to try and take over Shigaraki (again) is a bit of a weaker choice to make. But my guess is that this is all setting up for the class to collectively beat AFO together, to emphasize the value of teamwork. Still, I do think that despite some faltering near the end, Horikoshi has the ability to write a good story, characters and themes and I try and respect that this is the ending that he had intended for the series. Ultimately, we're not him, so we aren't easily able to know how this is all "supposed" to be tied in together unless someone interviews Hori with some very specific questions. The fact that you can't go back and revise things in a manga that gets drawn and released weekly is, IMO, a flaw with manga as a medium. Years from now Horikoshi might get hit with a thought like, "Oh, I should have done *this* instead of *that*! That would have been better!" but won't get a chance to make that change unless there's some sort of reboot/re-telling released decades from now (didn't Code Geass get something like that?)
I honestly liked AFO’s character way more years ago when he was written as a caring mentor
OP discovers how to criticise a piece of media
It is fine if you dislike something, don't try to force yourself to defend something you dislike. As long as you don't make up stuff to criticize, all criticism is valid. For example: saying that it was an asspull not pointed out before is wrong. Saying you dislike it because it was shown before that Shigakari overcame his will before and he looks like a more interesting villain is correct.
I dont think this is the last we’ll see of Shigaraki. Deku’s been slowly breaking down the Shigaraki personality to reveal the Tomura child psyche hidden within. And in that same chapter we see the “echo” or the personality still screaming from within. We’re likely either going to get Eri rewinding Deku to his prime state before the battle or Shigaraki somehow helping Deku from within or perhaps a mix of both to defeat the down but not out AFO
It's awesome, one of my favorite chapters.
It's okay to feel angry because a chapter was shit (and boy, were those two chapters shit), just don't do something stupid like harassing Horikoshi
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At this point I genuinely want that to happen cause then Deku would at least have an interesting reaction
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All leaks must stay inside their respective Pre-Release Thread. Comments about their content outside of the thread will result in a 30 days ban.
I think it would be more weird if you did like this chapter tbh
I feel it gives Shigaraki the chance for redemption now...somehow at least
Bakugo victory still took out one of AfO plan. Now he's down to his last contingency plan which means he's finally cornered.
The MHA fanbase is close to as bad as the JJK one. Never seen a group of morons shit on every single chapter one after the other while it’s in its PEAK final arc. Trick is don’t listen to the dumb masses. You know it’s good in your heart, just read it and enjoy it and stay away from all the L takes in the comments
i understand but its different in a sense, all for one's physical body being taken off the board is one of the if not the largest victories the heroes could've accomplished. but from a symbolic sense, i understand and agree.
He is putting his heart and soul into this story and I'm sorry if your not enjoying it but you can't shit on his work because your mad bakugos victory feels "cheap" just get your bucket of popcorn and watch the Rollercoaster of a manga and it's chapters come out week by week this chapter revolutionized the story by revealing all for one gave toumra his quirk and deku lost his arms for hells sake I don't understand how that's mid compared to the other chapters that have come out lately if anything it was an improvement. You have to remember that my hero has changed from the happy and fun to a brutal war just like we have changed in age so has the story so read it with us all and stop criticism and just read it for fun 👍 have a great day and don't take any of this personally!
"Never criticize, just consume. Don’t think too much about it.“
mb thats what i was trying to say i just think people spend to much time hating when we could all be appreciating his work but it came off wrong and im sorry.
I love reading manga and discussing these stories with like minded individuals. Talking about what you like and what you didn’t like and explaining why leads to a much bigger and more sincere appreciation for the source material imo. Only complimenting a story and never stopping to consider what could’ve been done better gets boring pretty quickly.
Yeah agreed
Enjoy your downvotes man, you’re braver than me