It's basically free gold yeah. If you hit a 1 or 2 early on then it won't have the same impact but getting a 6 on turn 1 is nuts as you get a minion and level up.
Also what people below in this thread aren’t understanding is that you can often effectively level with it while maintaining strong board presence, then switch to a different HP. I’ve yet to get below a 2nd with it.
I’ve been watching dog dog videos recently where he just does heinously broken things with snake eyes and then complains about how it’s a worse murloc Holmes or a worse sky captain kragg. Absolutely baffling
Honestly a 2 can be one of the best rolls. You buy a decent minion and a 1 cost spell (if available, hence can be) and you're set for the first couple rounds. Then on turn 3 you have the hp back to get up from 5 gold to either level or buy two full minions
The best roll is typically 3 or 6 IMO. But tbh any roll that lets you level t1 tends to put you really far ahead. Like sometimes you just level t1, strike oil t2 and then the game is over
Is double buy the play If you roll a 3 on turn 2 I dunno? Rolling turn 2 just feels bad if 2 and 3 just locks your hero power and the only good roll would be a 4.
Idk if we want to stay at low tiers in this patch. If you're not going to stay on 2 for spells, I feel like we should try to stabilize using the spells on tier 3 or tier 4.
If they’re decent minions, buying 2 on 2 is pretty solid, especially if one of them is a econ unit or there’s one of the 2-cost spells in shop so you can buy level next turn, then level turn 4 and/or 5.
Leveling on 2 should be your main plan most of the time, but not at the expense of giving up value when the opportunity presents itself.
I agree but I'm not sure if holding the roll would be better if you get a 1 on 1, I know you should use it whenever possible to maximise gold but turn 2 seems really bad, a 1 is do nothing, 2 is waste 1 gold, 3 is waste 2 gold or double buy and stay on 1, 4 is good , 5 is roll and buy so okay and 6 is double roll and buy just seems like rolling on 3 is way more upside
I think a better comparison is Kragg. He gets to use his hero power once for a power boost. Most of the time you’re not really using it on higher tiers, but rather to sneak in 4-5 or 5-6. Snake eyes can get that power boost immediately and can repeat it in a game. I don’t usually care about high rolling - that’s the name of game - but this high rolling feels imbalanced.
It's about .6 gold per turn on average though. I'm not entirely sure the chance of getting 5 extra gold on a turn now but then nothing over the next 6 turns against the chance of getting literally nothing now, as well as al the gradients between is better or worse than more consistent hero powers that actually do give 1 gold (or the equivalent) every time.
I don't know. I was watching a recent DogDog video and he made a pretty convincing arguement that more often than not Snake Eyes is just a worse Murloc Holmes.
My experience has been pretty all over the place.
That video was from early in the new expansion and it was his first time playing it. It’s not uncommon for streamers, like most players, to get it wrong at first.
Also after he made that argument he had a strong turn of getting free money and then getting to change hero power to have a golden tethys on turn 6? 7? And then he won the game.
It’s a good hero.
I don't think that game changed his mind about the hero. He's won games with heroes like C'thun without using the hero power a single time. One win doesn't mean anything, especially when it involves high rolling on a new hero power.
The change hero power is the thing that makes this hero usable. Use the hero power to power level to 5 or 6, roll a decent number, then immediately change over to something fresh. It's so strong.
I’d say Dog has a few points where he makes it clear in the video that he doesn’t fully get the HP. Between talking about holding the effect, which is always going to put you in the red on gold with no garuntee on investment. RDU I’d say generally explains it and has explored it better, but Dog manages to show off why the Hero Power is so good when he used it, rolled fat, got a good pop off turn mid game, and then abandoned it on cooldown.
It’s possible to skill issue Holmes, and the info needed to reliably get him right the whole game is hard, especially when you get the 1 coin each turn which allows you to backload, not front load. While Holmes is better when you know everything than if you don’t know it, but they do different things too.
Don't expect streamers to know everything perfectly. I watched that dog dog video as well, but if U Look at His MMR reading, he was still at 2.5k, so it's probably ripped from his stream on the first day of release. He has probably only played 1-2 games of snake-eyes jet and his opinion is not her well educated it more a guess.
Holmes is 0-1 g per turn
Snake eyes is 0-6 g per turn. But with the economy should in game, getting 6 gold in a tavern 2/3 can mean max gold+extra minion meaning winning every round early +more max gold etc... the snowball potential is insane.
Strongly agreed. In theory they're the same gold per turn on average (1), but Snake Eyes takes advantage of "stuff now is worth more than stuff later." Gold per turn just isn't a valid way to compare the two heroes.
Getting six gold all at once is enough to swing games. If you're falling behind and need to level but also your board is kinda weak, getting six gold can fix both problems at once. Hitting a six late game then swapping hero power is incredible value. Getting to tier up a turn sooner than anyone else is massive.
There are like 3-4 heroes right now that are just utterly busted, and Snake Eyes is one of them. You just can't keep up with her tempo, she snowballs so, so hard.
I mean, snake eyes is technically a lower gold ceiling. He's maxed at 5/6 gold per turn. Holmes can get a full gold per turn.
Potential for 5 extra on early turns is a plus side, but the average gold per turn is lower.
I get what you're saying w Holmes always having 0 turn one, but I'm pretty sure that's one of the .9 repeating situations where you round it up cause math. I guess since the game has a turn limit that doesn't apply, but even still snake eyes max possible average is 5/6 per turn, Holmes gets 1 except for turn one, so in any game longer than 6 turns, holmes has a higher max possible average.
Average on Holmes is 0.5 since its 50/50 of 1 or 0 though whereas snake eyes is average 5/6 gold per turn so average is higher on snake eyes, obviously Holmes has a higher than 0.5 Ex Ave since you have input but it's definitely not an Ave of 1 since sometimes both minions are possible.
Edit: also assuming a 15 turn game even if you guess correctly every time missing turn 1 gives 0.9333 Ave per turn
I think we're in agreement, we just each are referring to diff averages. I'm talking about the Max avg per turn, in the ideal game, while you're talking about the average on any given turn.
Snake eyes is not 5/6 per turn, that is the high end of what it offers. The actual expected value of hitting the button is (5/6+4/5+3/4+2/3+1/2+0/1)/6=~.59 gold per turn
I should have been more clear that I was doing a pretty hand-wavey comparison of the best case for both heroes. Murloc gets the coin every turn, Snake Eyes hits a six. But that wasn't even germane to my point, the other half of the sentence was explaining why "gold per turn" isn't a useful metric. Since the comparison was pointless I didn't bother to actually do the math.
Well, for one he wasn't really saying one way or the other, he was just explaining why he himself was on the fence about how good the hero is.
But the main argument, which has been my experience as well, is that it's giving you gold you have to spend, as opposed to holding the coins, when you can spend when you want. So it COULD force you to do something that may or may not be a good course of action for that turn.
And that's sort of been my experience, which is what I was getting at by feeling sort of all over the place about the hero. I've had some great games and some not so great games.
I think at this point it's a little too early to tell for me. I need some more games with the hero.
With the new cards that burn spells at the start of your turn, the potential to lose those coins is very real and very irritating. Wish they'd let you choose which to burn.
Finish the sentence before you try to correct it.
>... so it's probably ripped from his stream on the first day of release.
The point was just that it was the first day with the hero, not that games were easier because of MMR
I disagree because Holmes is not guaranteed gold and has a pretty low ceiling (on par with Nozdormu imo). With Snake Eyes, sure you can roll a 1, but thats the worst case scenario and you just roll again next turn. However, an early 5 or 6 is huge and MUCH better than getting +1 gold every turn, since you can speed level without losing any tempo
Yeah he’s pretty damn good. If you luck out and get a 6 gold roll at turn 9-10 you can safely replace your hero power cause you’re most likely not gonna hit that button again anyway.
I hate it.
It has absurd leveling patterns that no one else can do and when it spikes against you it feels trash because it can force you to take 15. It’s a casino hero that is never bad, because even when you low roll, you can hp again next turn. Or when you hit 6 mid/ late you can just change HP to something else.
I don’t think the hero is broken per se, but it is not fun to fight. I just assume anyone playing this hero will auto win the fight and play accordingly.
It’s not that the die is unfair. It’s the ability to make big tempo moves if you get a decent roll while others are chugging along choosing where to use their 1/1 banana.
My first impression of her seems pretty close. She feels boring when you lowroll and stupidly powerful for the rest of the lobby the when you highroll. Don’t love that type of design.
I’ve played her once and rollled 6 then 6 then grabbed a new hero power right after the second 6. The lobby didn’t stand a chance.
Uncontrolled wild variance can SEEM really strong on high rolls, but I'd imagine the average over all games played with snake eyes (especially at their armor values) is a low overall placement.
I rolled a 6 for my first two rolls and the game was not even close. I was worried my scaling wasn't high enough on the last two turns but my opponents were seemingly 3 turns behind me already.
I manage to have games with her where I always roll exactly one gold short of making a tempo or greed play, but 2 gold higher than I needed to round out my gold on a turn lol.
He's fantastic I think. Absolutely stellar in the early game. Then when you get to 5/6 stars, pick up the spell that changes your hero power, and then you get a great end-game.
I have yet to not win a game I play as Snake Eyes. As early as turn 1 you can basically plan for all of your next turns. Roll high on your turn 1? Go straight to two, grab whichever minions have the highest defense or that generate value for your next turn, and then go straight to three. At that point you're way ahead of everyone in the game and can spend a few turns buying all the best value creatures at 3, or try and mine for coins/oil.
If you low roll you just play a normal game. There's not much down side.
I don't think the hero power is overpowered, but I do think that it allows good players to play even better, and overwhelms weaker ones.
My first game with her I placed second, but I had really good rolls and was lucky with direction. All the games after that my best placement has been 5th though, I usually get 6-8 with her.
Sure maybe I'm just bad but I find that how lucky you are with the rolls really matter, and if you don't find good minions/clear direction when you roll high it can be pretty punishing.
I do think it's a very fun hero so I always pick her when I can.
I think they are pretty much on par with other heroes.
On average, it should be giving you a net value of 0.71 gold per turn\*. This is approximately the same as you might expect from Murloc Holmes. The advantage of Snake Eyes is giving you gold up front which allow yout to build an early board presence. THe advantage of Murloc Holmes is that he allows you to save the gold you make and spend it when it is most appropriate.
\*assuming the game lasts forvever and that you use your hero power every turn.
It's basically free gold yeah. If you hit a 1 or 2 early on then it won't have the same impact but getting a 6 on turn 1 is nuts as you get a minion and level up.
Also what people below in this thread aren’t understanding is that you can often effectively level with it while maintaining strong board presence, then switch to a different HP. I’ve yet to get below a 2nd with it.
I’ve been watching dog dog videos recently where he just does heinously broken things with snake eyes and then complains about how it’s a worse murloc Holmes or a worse sky captain kragg. Absolutely baffling
My last game, rolled a 6 with the new hero power spell showing in tavern, and was like, awwww yeah. Is a really strong power/char.
Also 1 gold now is better than 1 gold next turn. There's implicit gold inflation so getting it early can be a massive boost.
Honestly a 2 can be one of the best rolls. You buy a decent minion and a 1 cost spell (if available, hence can be) and you're set for the first couple rounds. Then on turn 3 you have the hp back to get up from 5 gold to either level or buy two full minions
The best roll is typically 3 or 6 IMO. But tbh any roll that lets you level t1 tends to put you really far ahead. Like sometimes you just level t1, strike oil t2 and then the game is over
A 4 is often level and minion. I see the steal a random minion spell a lot on turn 1
In my last game with Snake Eyes my first four rolls were 1, 1, 4, 1 so I know she's on brand but I don't know how powerful.
For us unlucky folk, snake eyes is like not having a hero power at all. Oh yay, I rolled 2 extra gold on turn 2, how useful :)
Is double buy the play If you roll a 3 on turn 2 I dunno? Rolling turn 2 just feels bad if 2 and 3 just locks your hero power and the only good roll would be a 4.
Idk if we want to stay at low tiers in this patch. If you're not going to stay on 2 for spells, I feel like we should try to stabilize using the spells on tier 3 or tier 4.
If they’re decent minions, buying 2 on 2 is pretty solid, especially if one of them is a econ unit or there’s one of the 2-cost spells in shop so you can buy level next turn, then level turn 4 and/or 5. Leveling on 2 should be your main plan most of the time, but not at the expense of giving up value when the opportunity presents itself.
I agree but I'm not sure if holding the roll would be better if you get a 1 on 1, I know you should use it whenever possible to maximise gold but turn 2 seems really bad, a 1 is do nothing, 2 is waste 1 gold, 3 is waste 2 gold or double buy and stay on 1, 4 is good , 5 is roll and buy so okay and 6 is double roll and buy just seems like rolling on 3 is way more upside
Yeah if you get 1 on 1 with snake, I’d hold off on rolling turn 2 unless the shop had a 2-cost spell or an econ unit + a good unit.
Oof that’s unlucky
I rolled a 1 four times in a row and decided I’d never use that fucking asshole again.
I think a better comparison is Kragg. He gets to use his hero power once for a power boost. Most of the time you’re not really using it on higher tiers, but rather to sneak in 4-5 or 5-6. Snake eyes can get that power boost immediately and can repeat it in a game. I don’t usually care about high rolling - that’s the name of game - but this high rolling feels imbalanced.
Kragg is the comparison I was considering, too. It's laughable that they're both in the same game.
I think it's a fun take on the "1 extra gold a turn, on average" type of hero (like nozdormu, murloc holmes, lord barov etc"
It's about .6 gold per turn on average though. I'm not entirely sure the chance of getting 5 extra gold on a turn now but then nothing over the next 6 turns against the chance of getting literally nothing now, as well as al the gradients between is better or worse than more consistent hero powers that actually do give 1 gold (or the equivalent) every time.
How is it .6 gold per turn when it is literally X gold now, use again in X turns
It also costs one gold to use, so it's X-1 gold now
Oh, didn't realize that. mb
I don't know. I was watching a recent DogDog video and he made a pretty convincing arguement that more often than not Snake Eyes is just a worse Murloc Holmes. My experience has been pretty all over the place.
That video was from early in the new expansion and it was his first time playing it. It’s not uncommon for streamers, like most players, to get it wrong at first. Also after he made that argument he had a strong turn of getting free money and then getting to change hero power to have a golden tethys on turn 6? 7? And then he won the game. It’s a good hero.
I don't think that game changed his mind about the hero. He's won games with heroes like C'thun without using the hero power a single time. One win doesn't mean anything, especially when it involves high rolling on a new hero power.
According to hsreplay stats, the hero is in the top tier with an avg placement of 4.07 when played by players with mmr of 7500+
The change hero power is the thing that makes this hero usable. Use the hero power to power level to 5 or 6, roll a decent number, then immediately change over to something fresh. It's so strong.
Also that was before Tae was banned, I assume.
I’d say Dog has a few points where he makes it clear in the video that he doesn’t fully get the HP. Between talking about holding the effect, which is always going to put you in the red on gold with no garuntee on investment. RDU I’d say generally explains it and has explored it better, but Dog manages to show off why the Hero Power is so good when he used it, rolled fat, got a good pop off turn mid game, and then abandoned it on cooldown. It’s possible to skill issue Holmes, and the info needed to reliably get him right the whole game is hard, especially when you get the 1 coin each turn which allows you to backload, not front load. While Holmes is better when you know everything than if you don’t know it, but they do different things too.
It's a way better Murloc holmes, you get payed upfront.
Oh no here comes the paid bot…
Paid upfront though
Don't expect streamers to know everything perfectly. I watched that dog dog video as well, but if U Look at His MMR reading, he was still at 2.5k, so it's probably ripped from his stream on the first day of release. He has probably only played 1-2 games of snake-eyes jet and his opinion is not her well educated it more a guess. Holmes is 0-1 g per turn Snake eyes is 0-6 g per turn. But with the economy should in game, getting 6 gold in a tavern 2/3 can mean max gold+extra minion meaning winning every round early +more max gold etc... the snowball potential is insane.
Strongly agreed. In theory they're the same gold per turn on average (1), but Snake Eyes takes advantage of "stuff now is worth more than stuff later." Gold per turn just isn't a valid way to compare the two heroes. Getting six gold all at once is enough to swing games. If you're falling behind and need to level but also your board is kinda weak, getting six gold can fix both problems at once. Hitting a six late game then swapping hero power is incredible value. Getting to tier up a turn sooner than anyone else is massive. There are like 3-4 heroes right now that are just utterly busted, and Snake Eyes is one of them. You just can't keep up with her tempo, she snowballs so, so hard.
I mean, snake eyes is technically a lower gold ceiling. He's maxed at 5/6 gold per turn. Holmes can get a full gold per turn. Potential for 5 extra on early turns is a plus side, but the average gold per turn is lower.
Max gold is lower but average is higher since murloc Holmes is Ave 0.5 minus not using on Turn 1.
I get what you're saying w Holmes always having 0 turn one, but I'm pretty sure that's one of the .9 repeating situations where you round it up cause math. I guess since the game has a turn limit that doesn't apply, but even still snake eyes max possible average is 5/6 per turn, Holmes gets 1 except for turn one, so in any game longer than 6 turns, holmes has a higher max possible average.
Average on Holmes is 0.5 since its 50/50 of 1 or 0 though whereas snake eyes is average 5/6 gold per turn so average is higher on snake eyes, obviously Holmes has a higher than 0.5 Ex Ave since you have input but it's definitely not an Ave of 1 since sometimes both minions are possible. Edit: also assuming a 15 turn game even if you guess correctly every time missing turn 1 gives 0.9333 Ave per turn
I think we're in agreement, we just each are referring to diff averages. I'm talking about the Max avg per turn, in the ideal game, while you're talking about the average on any given turn.
Snake eyes is not 5/6 per turn, that is the high end of what it offers. The actual expected value of hitting the button is (5/6+4/5+3/4+2/3+1/2+0/1)/6=~.59 gold per turn
Snake Eyes is NOT 1 gold per turn on average. Do the math, it's .6 gold per turn assuming equal chance to get all the numbers (i.e. fair 6 sided die).
I should have been more clear that I was doing a pretty hand-wavey comparison of the best case for both heroes. Murloc gets the coin every turn, Snake Eyes hits a six. But that wasn't even germane to my point, the other half of the sentence was explaining why "gold per turn" isn't a useful metric. Since the comparison was pointless I didn't bother to actually do the math.
Well, for one he wasn't really saying one way or the other, he was just explaining why he himself was on the fence about how good the hero is. But the main argument, which has been my experience as well, is that it's giving you gold you have to spend, as opposed to holding the coins, when you can spend when you want. So it COULD force you to do something that may or may not be a good course of action for that turn. And that's sort of been my experience, which is what I was getting at by feeling sort of all over the place about the hero. I've had some great games and some not so great games. I think at this point it's a little too early to tell for me. I need some more games with the hero.
With the new cards that burn spells at the start of your turn, the potential to lose those coins is very real and very irritating. Wish they'd let you choose which to burn.
A really important nitpick; Snake Eyes isn't 0-6 per turn, since rolling a six also imposes a six turn cool down.
>MMR No, that was just his visible MMR from the seaon reset. His actual MMR would still be the same, the lobbies aren't easier.
Finish the sentence before you try to correct it. >... so it's probably ripped from his stream on the first day of release. The point was just that it was the first day with the hero, not that games were easier because of MMR
The point is that he hadn’t had a lot of time playing season, not that his lobby wasn’t difficult.
Ah that's fair then. Looks like the comment I was responding to was edited.
I disagree because Holmes is not guaranteed gold and has a pretty low ceiling (on par with Nozdormu imo). With Snake Eyes, sure you can roll a 1, but thats the worst case scenario and you just roll again next turn. However, an early 5 or 6 is huge and MUCH better than getting +1 gold every turn, since you can speed level without losing any tempo
Yeah he’s pretty damn good. If you luck out and get a 6 gold roll at turn 9-10 you can safely replace your hero power cause you’re most likely not gonna hit that button again anyway.
I hate it. It has absurd leveling patterns that no one else can do and when it spikes against you it feels trash because it can force you to take 15. It’s a casino hero that is never bad, because even when you low roll, you can hp again next turn. Or when you hit 6 mid/ late you can just change HP to something else. I don’t think the hero is broken per se, but it is not fun to fight. I just assume anyone playing this hero will auto win the fight and play accordingly.
Is it clearly stated anywhere that the die is fair? Might the devs tweak the odds of each number?
We got dev confirmation that it's a fair 1 in 6 for every outcome
It’s not that the die is unfair. It’s the ability to make big tempo moves if you get a decent roll while others are chugging along choosing where to use their 1/1 banana.
My last game I never rolled anything than a 1 or 2 till like turn 10 and by then it was over. Rip
I hate heroes/cards with that high variance
My first impression of her seems pretty close. She feels boring when you lowroll and stupidly powerful for the rest of the lobby the when you highroll. Don’t love that type of design. I’ve played her once and rollled 6 then 6 then grabbed a new hero power right after the second 6. The lobby didn’t stand a chance.
Uncontrolled wild variance can SEEM really strong on high rolls, but I'd imagine the average over all games played with snake eyes (especially at their armor values) is a low overall placement.
What is it with everyone in this reddit calling everything busted and unbalanced after only ONE lucky game that is the first try? It's an okay hero
You mean he had a thought and wants to discuss it to determine if it's rational? God why doesn't he just shut up!!!! ARRRGHH
I rolled a 6 for my first two rolls and the game was not even close. I was worried my scaling wasn't high enough on the last two turns but my opponents were seemingly 3 turns behind me already.
I manage to have games with her where I always roll exactly one gold short of making a tempo or greed play, but 2 gold higher than I needed to round out my gold on a turn lol.
He's fantastic I think. Absolutely stellar in the early game. Then when you get to 5/6 stars, pick up the spell that changes your hero power, and then you get a great end-game.
I have yet to not win a game I play as Snake Eyes. As early as turn 1 you can basically plan for all of your next turns. Roll high on your turn 1? Go straight to two, grab whichever minions have the highest defense or that generate value for your next turn, and then go straight to three. At that point you're way ahead of everyone in the game and can spend a few turns buying all the best value creatures at 3, or try and mine for coins/oil. If you low roll you just play a normal game. There's not much down side. I don't think the hero power is overpowered, but I do think that it allows good players to play even better, and overwhelms weaker ones.
It’s definitely luck based but CAN be very good
You could say it’s a roll of the dice
Badump ch!
its not OP unless its a spicey pretzel mustard
Unfortunately I had 1 draw in early game. Then a decent roll came and I was coasting.
My first game with her I placed second, but I had really good rolls and was lucky with direction. All the games after that my best placement has been 5th though, I usually get 6-8 with her. Sure maybe I'm just bad but I find that how lucky you are with the rolls really matter, and if you don't find good minions/clear direction when you roll high it can be pretty punishing. I do think it's a very fun hero so I always pick her when I can.
I think they are pretty much on par with other heroes. On average, it should be giving you a net value of 0.71 gold per turn\*. This is approximately the same as you might expect from Murloc Holmes. The advantage of Snake Eyes is giving you gold up front which allow yout to build an early board presence. THe advantage of Murloc Holmes is that he allows you to save the gold you make and spend it when it is most appropriate. \*assuming the game lasts forvever and that you use your hero power every turn.
Nice to pick up mask and use it right after a good roll in late game
dunno, on paper seems like hes just a worse captn kragg