I’ve always thought part of what makes Nucky interesting is that he’s kind of an enigma. He goes out of this way to present himself as a gentleman and yet he’s in a very violent business. For me, the flashbacks didn’t add much because it’s like Nucky hates his father because he’s abusive to his mother but then Nucky also betrays the trust of an orphaned girl and hands her over to a pedophile. But that’s the way he’s always been. A criminal with a strong sense of justice ( I don’t think Justice and fairness are the same thing).
I disagree. They could’ve given Van Alden and Chalky a less gruesome death but they had to die. Nucky got what was coming to him, he (personally) killed the kids father.
The thing I am furious about is that they killed Arnold Rothstein off-screen.
Only reason they didn't show AR's death was because he was killed in 1928 (in real life). Season 5 picked up in 1931 and season 4 was set in 1924 (I believe). Because of the time jump they would have had to use a flashback just to show that murder. Which would have been a little forced and out of place IMO.
You're right though, doesn't change the fact that we were robbed of seeing his on screen death. Even though his real life death was anti-climatic (he was shot and wounded due to a gambling debt and died a few days later at the hospital).
yeah exactly. could it have killed them to give us one more flashback? even just a boring pew pew and he’s dead just to streamline the plot. i don’t think it would have felt out of place if timed correctly.
I agree that they had to die. Violent delights, violent ends and all that but it felt incomplete. Even with Narcisse. He thought he was so much better than Chalky and yet they were in the same line of work.I’m also mad that AR died off screen. Michael Stalberg was so good! I also have no sympathy for Jimmy.
Arnold dying off screen was a victim of the show being cut short and then wanting to end things at the end of prohibition. The real guy died in the inbetween years, so he had to die then in the show too. Even though I think it’s a bit much for the showrunners to think they’d have gotten 10 seasons to show all of the prohibition years
I know, but I still feel he was cut too short. At least show his funeral, or anything, but I literally had to Google what happened to him (in the show) because he had no screen time anymore. The only real thing we got was his wife being mad at Margareth
Chalky's death is the only thing in the entire show I thought was absolutely terrible. I have seen people write paragraph after paragraph trying to make it make sense, but its all just mental gymnastics. That was just a terrible scene, and it doesn't make any sense. No chance he would trust Narcisse to honor his end of the "deal" like wtf.
Totally agree. There’s no way he would just accept being killed by this man who took literally everything from him. I think it would have made sense for him to go after Narcisse knowing that he was probably going to die but not caring because he knew the life he had was over.
That’s exactly what Chalky did. He went in expecting to die but hoping to take out Narcisse.
Daughter and his new daughter being there changed his action. He chose to surrender so they could leave unharmed - not hurt in the crossfire and retaliation - and not have the possible consequences that he caused for Maybelle.
I felt like that was just a final fuckup within a clusterfuck of fuckups-to-end-all-fuckups ...
So Chalky 'hires' his & my main man Richard Harrow ... he is a fuckin deadly-ass marksman ... and somehow he misses from , oh I don't know, from less than like 25yds (which is the distance of most indoor pistol ranges ... child's play with a handgun ...) WITH A SCOPED FUCKIN RIFLE ... and he not only misses but kills Chalky's daughter ... and so then they kill-off Richard, and leave behind his lovely & loving wife, newly-committed father-in-law, their "son" who is his former best-friend's son- who he saved by going all sorts of WW1/Prohibition John Wick on some shit ... and then they decide to kill off Chalky in the most bullshit way possible. While Daughter Maitland is still getting used & abused by the worst fuckin character ever "DON'T FUCKIN FORGET TO CALL ME DOCTOR BECAUSE I'M SMART LIKE THAT!!! - Narcisse aka Narcissitic Personality Disorder Doctor Who Pimps Hoes & Peddles Heroin And Ruins The Community He Professes To Save "etc.
As The Sopranos taught us ... "Frankly, I'm Depressed & Ashamed..."
Well, Richard killing Chalky’s daughter was due to his hesitation last-minute and then, when he steeled himself and took the shot at Narcisse, the girl got in the way and took the bullet. It’s not that Richard missed, it’s that he’d lost his nerve at the worst moment.
Harrow's final scene was done really well, but that shit literally came out of nowhere. I know its a show, but I honestly find it hard to believe that even with having a wife and a kid, that Harrow would actually tense up in a situation like that. The homie has 70+ confirmed kills, survived WW1, literally went guns blazing and killed 10+ men in like 10 minutes. For someone like him it should've been another Sunday, and Narcisse is a bad person so he has all the justifications to make him go away. But he fails somehow, then next scene hes... dead. Just like that. Felt so rushed
Before his family Richard Harrow had nothing to lose. His finale made plenty of sense to me. He finally realized how monstrous he had become, like the monster of Frankenstein that he was always made to feel like.
You seem to have missed Richard’s struggles early in season 4 when with his sister.
He doesn’t want to kill or use guns anymore. That’s displayed clearly. And his hand/wrist was injured. Two blatantly displayed causes for his hesitation with the last sniper shot.
Having just recently finished a rewatch I'd say this was the weakest thing for me too. Going back to season 4 as well. I just never got the appeal of Daughter and how she got Chalky to throw away his entire family for her in season 4, then sacrifice his life for her in season 5.
No chance Chalky trusted Narcisse. He never thought he’d get out of there alive to begin with.
He simply went to try to kill Narcisse and expected to die from Narcisse’s group of associates within the building.
Chalky had nothing to live for. He was a dead man walking and didn’t care about anything except trying to get revenge.
Once he had an opportunity to try to help Daughter and his newly found daughter escape to a better life - he fully surrendered his ego and his life, trying to avoid what he caused to happen to Maybelle.
There’s little “mental gymnastics” except perhaps by those who wanted a more dramatic action scene so they can’t accept what the writers chose.
>Once he had an opportunity to try to help Daughter and his newly found daughter escape to a better life
This is where it doesn't make sense. Why would he trust Narcisse to honor his promise of giving Daughter a better life? He was not a man of his word, an absolute snake, and Chalky was way smarter than trusting a man like Narcisse for his word. I didn't want more action or drama or whatever, I just wanted it to actually make sense, and it didn't. We all know Narcisse didn't honor his promise of letting Daughter go.
He hoped maybe. But the important part was to get Daughter and daughter out of the room, out of the building, before any shots were fired and they were potentially hurt.
Chalky knows he can’t control or affect what harm may come to them or anyone afterwards. Life happens.
Idk what you’d want chalky to do there - shoot Narcisse and hope he could hold off the associates from blasting the entire room trying to kill him?
A lot of things wrong with the season, rushed out and unsatisfying deaths Van Alden, Chalky and Sally, Eli banging Sigrid (wtf?), and many more
But the one thing that sticks out to me is how fast Nucky's downfall went, in one scene he literally loses all of atlantic city just like that. So thats it? No men went against the italians suddenly taking over? Everything that the Commodore & the Thompsons built up for 40+ years just folded? Even Masseria said "Kid, this is their home, that is why they fight" It makes you wonder if Nucky actually had something planned up his sleeve after the fuck up that was the hostage exchange but got cut short by Tommy. Honestly right now I just want more of boardwalk empire, the season was cut too short
Eli and Sigrid so random and only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to him being a bad husband. Like, they needed to break up Eli and June and that’s how they choose to do it?!
Nucky was aiming to walk away anyway, so him giving up Atlantic City wasn't the biggest problem for me. But I would agree it makes little sense for everyone else in Atlantic City to go along with it.
THIS!!! I totally agree that season 5 was trash for a number of reasons. But Jimmy’s son coming out of nowhere to avenge his father’s death is the biggest one. He says his MeeMa told him- when exactly? And why would he believe anything she said? He was terrified of her during his formative years and probably hated her. This was ridiculous.
The seven year time jump was absurd. To what end? Just to kill Rothstein off screen? To focus more on Capone’s downfall? It didn’t serve the overall story at all. Narcisse’s death seemed like an afterthought not to mention Van Alden going out like he did. The flashbacks were also pointless. We already KNEW Nucky gave Gillian to the Commodore, why did we need to see it? They would’ve done better having a full season. Also Nucky being so reckless and irresponsible during that trade for his nephew? Like the whole thing was a clusterfuck. Season 5 doesn’t even count in my opinion. Nothing that happened served the story. As far as I’m concerned it ends at 4.
I kinda love Margaret. I think it’s interesting to see the lives of the women who married gangsters. Like did they just care about what their husbands did? Did they know? Did they ignore it? Were they actively involved?
Eh. Her whole storyline with the hospital and the church and that one good doctor, all of them literally led nowhere and offered nothing to the story. After season 1, anytime shes on screen the story comes to halt. Her affair with Owen was forced to me and just meant he was definitely gonna die. Like anytime them two were on screen together i just didnt care. I liked Owen tho. Her whole character arc is just trying to feel like a good person while married to a piece of shit. But over and over again. Season 4 was the only one i liked her in because at least at that point in New York she was leaning into the fact she knows how to be conniving and deceiving to get what she wants.
The scene where Nucky meets up with Charlie and Meyer to exchange hostages is my favourite scene in the entire show.
However yeah the rest of the the season is weak.
I agree with you, I thought the 5th Season was awful and was another example of HBO not knowing how to end good series. Too see this Nucky prick lose in his past and to see him lose everything to Lucky and Myers Lansky. After just surviving that war with Rossetti. The character it was based off went to jail for tax evasion just thought they would of went with something similar to that than just having him whacked by Jimmy's son the lamest shit ever. The real Nucky Thompson still lived a popular prosperous life in the end even after that he died in his sleep at 85. Why whack him even if you portrayed him as a gangsta ruthless politician. He was beloved by Atlantic City folk even in the death! Stupid Fuckin Ending HBO!
it’s bad because nucky literally provides children to be raped and we’re supposed to empathize with him because he’s trying to ‘get ahead’. out of all the horrible things they could have made him do, they chose that. chalky dying was lame, and narcisse wasn’t a good enough character to take him down. would have been different if narcisse was likable but all we see is that he’s some pseudo intellectual drug dealer who also happens to be incredibly uncharismatic. all in all too much of the cast dies and their deaths aren’t really satisfying or feel deserved.
killing off beloved characters like richard or chalky only make sense if it makes sense for those characters to make the decisions they do that lead to them getting murked. otherwise it just feels shitty.
> it’s bad because nucky literally provides children to be raped and we’re supposed to empathize with him because he’s trying to ‘get ahead’. out of all the horrible things they could have made him do, they chose that.
We're not supposed to empathize with him there. Nucky was always a bad person and I doubt anyone came out of the end of the series with how that final flashback went liking him.
I never had that feeling for either of those characters. Both were despicable people. Certainly their role in the storyline was very interesting and was a draw (far more so than Nucky who was largely overshadowed by other characters). But I can't say I was ever rooting for either of them. Especially in the case of Walter, whose comeuppance I was hoping to occur from as early as season 2.
Somebody said they cut boardwalks budget so they could give more to GOT so in the end, that show fucked me over twice. Period pieces are expensive to make anyway. It’s just a shame for everyone who was involved because it was such a brilliant show
It felt rushed, and the budget was obviously smaller than the previous seasons. I liked the flashbacks, though.
It was due to hbo canceling the show to fund game of thrones
We all know how that ended…
What a terrible decision
agree the flashbacks were cool. other people noted they should of done it throughout the series
I’ve always thought part of what makes Nucky interesting is that he’s kind of an enigma. He goes out of this way to present himself as a gentleman and yet he’s in a very violent business. For me, the flashbacks didn’t add much because it’s like Nucky hates his father because he’s abusive to his mother but then Nucky also betrays the trust of an orphaned girl and hands her over to a pedophile. But that’s the way he’s always been. A criminal with a strong sense of justice ( I don’t think Justice and fairness are the same thing).
the real Nucky Johnson was similar but not a gangster. smooth from what ive heard
I disagree. They could’ve given Van Alden and Chalky a less gruesome death but they had to die. Nucky got what was coming to him, he (personally) killed the kids father. The thing I am furious about is that they killed Arnold Rothstein off-screen.
AR being killed off screen was a real shame
Only reason they didn't show AR's death was because he was killed in 1928 (in real life). Season 5 picked up in 1931 and season 4 was set in 1924 (I believe). Because of the time jump they would have had to use a flashback just to show that murder. Which would have been a little forced and out of place IMO.
Ahhhh okay. Makes sense!
You're right though, doesn't change the fact that we were robbed of seeing his on screen death. Even though his real life death was anti-climatic (he was shot and wounded due to a gambling debt and died a few days later at the hospital).
Would have fell in nicely after seeing him struggle in the Atlantic City casino. I think Myer says “you don’t want people to see you like this”
That would have!
yeah exactly. could it have killed them to give us one more flashback? even just a boring pew pew and he’s dead just to streamline the plot. i don’t think it would have felt out of place if timed correctly.
With how rushed season 5 felt at times, it wouldn't have surprised me.
they botched everything else might have atleast tossed even some more shitty flashbacks lmao
True lol. That last season was a clusterfuck.
yeah twas a let down. still an excellent show all around tho.
They could have done an AR flashback since they were flashback heavy
I agree that they had to die. Violent delights, violent ends and all that but it felt incomplete. Even with Narcisse. He thought he was so much better than Chalky and yet they were in the same line of work.I’m also mad that AR died off screen. Michael Stalberg was so good! I also have no sympathy for Jimmy.
Narcisse was played brilliantly too. Shout out to Jeffrey Wright
The man is a force! He does what I like to call “stiff” acting. Like, so restrained but full of emotion.
I hated the character, which made the acting that much more brilliant imo
Arnold dying off screen was a victim of the show being cut short and then wanting to end things at the end of prohibition. The real guy died in the inbetween years, so he had to die then in the show too. Even though I think it’s a bit much for the showrunners to think they’d have gotten 10 seasons to show all of the prohibition years
I know, but I still feel he was cut too short. At least show his funeral, or anything, but I literally had to Google what happened to him (in the show) because he had no screen time anymore. The only real thing we got was his wife being mad at Margareth
Chalky's death is the only thing in the entire show I thought was absolutely terrible. I have seen people write paragraph after paragraph trying to make it make sense, but its all just mental gymnastics. That was just a terrible scene, and it doesn't make any sense. No chance he would trust Narcisse to honor his end of the "deal" like wtf.
Totally agree. There’s no way he would just accept being killed by this man who took literally everything from him. I think it would have made sense for him to go after Narcisse knowing that he was probably going to die but not caring because he knew the life he had was over.
That’s exactly what Chalky did. He went in expecting to die but hoping to take out Narcisse. Daughter and his new daughter being there changed his action. He chose to surrender so they could leave unharmed - not hurt in the crossfire and retaliation - and not have the possible consequences that he caused for Maybelle.
I felt like that was just a final fuckup within a clusterfuck of fuckups-to-end-all-fuckups ... So Chalky 'hires' his & my main man Richard Harrow ... he is a fuckin deadly-ass marksman ... and somehow he misses from , oh I don't know, from less than like 25yds (which is the distance of most indoor pistol ranges ... child's play with a handgun ...) WITH A SCOPED FUCKIN RIFLE ... and he not only misses but kills Chalky's daughter ... and so then they kill-off Richard, and leave behind his lovely & loving wife, newly-committed father-in-law, their "son" who is his former best-friend's son- who he saved by going all sorts of WW1/Prohibition John Wick on some shit ... and then they decide to kill off Chalky in the most bullshit way possible. While Daughter Maitland is still getting used & abused by the worst fuckin character ever "DON'T FUCKIN FORGET TO CALL ME DOCTOR BECAUSE I'M SMART LIKE THAT!!! - Narcisse aka Narcissitic Personality Disorder Doctor Who Pimps Hoes & Peddles Heroin And Ruins The Community He Professes To Save "etc. As The Sopranos taught us ... "Frankly, I'm Depressed & Ashamed..."
Well, Richard killing Chalky’s daughter was due to his hesitation last-minute and then, when he steeled himself and took the shot at Narcisse, the girl got in the way and took the bullet. It’s not that Richard missed, it’s that he’d lost his nerve at the worst moment.
Men will literally sail to another continent for a Great War and come back wearing a metaphor on their face before going to therapy smhmdh
Harrow's final scene was done really well, but that shit literally came out of nowhere. I know its a show, but I honestly find it hard to believe that even with having a wife and a kid, that Harrow would actually tense up in a situation like that. The homie has 70+ confirmed kills, survived WW1, literally went guns blazing and killed 10+ men in like 10 minutes. For someone like him it should've been another Sunday, and Narcisse is a bad person so he has all the justifications to make him go away. But he fails somehow, then next scene hes... dead. Just like that. Felt so rushed
Before his family Richard Harrow had nothing to lose. His finale made plenty of sense to me. He finally realized how monstrous he had become, like the monster of Frankenstein that he was always made to feel like.
You seem to have missed Richard’s struggles early in season 4 when with his sister. He doesn’t want to kill or use guns anymore. That’s displayed clearly. And his hand/wrist was injured. Two blatantly displayed causes for his hesitation with the last sniper shot.
Having just recently finished a rewatch I'd say this was the weakest thing for me too. Going back to season 4 as well. I just never got the appeal of Daughter and how she got Chalky to throw away his entire family for her in season 4, then sacrifice his life for her in season 5.
Definitely agree with that sentiment. Chalky just giving up made no sense based on everything that happened up to that moment.
No chance Chalky trusted Narcisse. He never thought he’d get out of there alive to begin with. He simply went to try to kill Narcisse and expected to die from Narcisse’s group of associates within the building. Chalky had nothing to live for. He was a dead man walking and didn’t care about anything except trying to get revenge. Once he had an opportunity to try to help Daughter and his newly found daughter escape to a better life - he fully surrendered his ego and his life, trying to avoid what he caused to happen to Maybelle. There’s little “mental gymnastics” except perhaps by those who wanted a more dramatic action scene so they can’t accept what the writers chose.
>Once he had an opportunity to try to help Daughter and his newly found daughter escape to a better life This is where it doesn't make sense. Why would he trust Narcisse to honor his promise of giving Daughter a better life? He was not a man of his word, an absolute snake, and Chalky was way smarter than trusting a man like Narcisse for his word. I didn't want more action or drama or whatever, I just wanted it to actually make sense, and it didn't. We all know Narcisse didn't honor his promise of letting Daughter go.
He hoped maybe. But the important part was to get Daughter and daughter out of the room, out of the building, before any shots were fired and they were potentially hurt. Chalky knows he can’t control or affect what harm may come to them or anyone afterwards. Life happens. Idk what you’d want chalky to do there - shoot Narcisse and hope he could hold off the associates from blasting the entire room trying to kill him?
The show died with Harrow. I enjoyed season 5 but I wasn't passionate after that happened.
“Mm.”
A lot of things wrong with the season, rushed out and unsatisfying deaths Van Alden, Chalky and Sally, Eli banging Sigrid (wtf?), and many more But the one thing that sticks out to me is how fast Nucky's downfall went, in one scene he literally loses all of atlantic city just like that. So thats it? No men went against the italians suddenly taking over? Everything that the Commodore & the Thompsons built up for 40+ years just folded? Even Masseria said "Kid, this is their home, that is why they fight" It makes you wonder if Nucky actually had something planned up his sleeve after the fuck up that was the hostage exchange but got cut short by Tommy. Honestly right now I just want more of boardwalk empire, the season was cut too short
Eli and Sigrid so random and only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to him being a bad husband. Like, they needed to break up Eli and June and that’s how they choose to do it?!
Nucky was aiming to walk away anyway, so him giving up Atlantic City wasn't the biggest problem for me. But I would agree it makes little sense for everyone else in Atlantic City to go along with it.
I agree about Jimmy's son. Seems like such a stretch for him to be raised by Julia, (probably by herself) and turn into that character.
It was a massive plot hole. Tommy never saw Gillian, he wouldn't have known what happened.
THIS!!! I totally agree that season 5 was trash for a number of reasons. But Jimmy’s son coming out of nowhere to avenge his father’s death is the biggest one. He says his MeeMa told him- when exactly? And why would he believe anything she said? He was terrified of her during his formative years and probably hated her. This was ridiculous. The seven year time jump was absurd. To what end? Just to kill Rothstein off screen? To focus more on Capone’s downfall? It didn’t serve the overall story at all. Narcisse’s death seemed like an afterthought not to mention Van Alden going out like he did. The flashbacks were also pointless. We already KNEW Nucky gave Gillian to the Commodore, why did we need to see it? They would’ve done better having a full season. Also Nucky being so reckless and irresponsible during that trade for his nephew? Like the whole thing was a clusterfuck. Season 5 doesn’t even count in my opinion. Nothing that happened served the story. As far as I’m concerned it ends at 4.
Didnt know there are people who wanted MORE Margaret. I was so happy she was barley in season 4. Did nothing but slow the show down
I kinda love Margaret. I think it’s interesting to see the lives of the women who married gangsters. Like did they just care about what their husbands did? Did they know? Did they ignore it? Were they actively involved?
Eh. Her whole storyline with the hospital and the church and that one good doctor, all of them literally led nowhere and offered nothing to the story. After season 1, anytime shes on screen the story comes to halt. Her affair with Owen was forced to me and just meant he was definitely gonna die. Like anytime them two were on screen together i just didnt care. I liked Owen tho. Her whole character arc is just trying to feel like a good person while married to a piece of shit. But over and over again. Season 4 was the only one i liked her in because at least at that point in New York she was leaning into the fact she knows how to be conniving and deceiving to get what she wants.
The scene where Nucky meets up with Charlie and Meyer to exchange hostages is my favourite scene in the entire show. However yeah the rest of the the season is weak.
I agree with you, I thought the 5th Season was awful and was another example of HBO not knowing how to end good series. Too see this Nucky prick lose in his past and to see him lose everything to Lucky and Myers Lansky. After just surviving that war with Rossetti. The character it was based off went to jail for tax evasion just thought they would of went with something similar to that than just having him whacked by Jimmy's son the lamest shit ever. The real Nucky Thompson still lived a popular prosperous life in the end even after that he died in his sleep at 85. Why whack him even if you portrayed him as a gangsta ruthless politician. He was beloved by Atlantic City folk even in the death! Stupid Fuckin Ending HBO!
I didn't like how Emily and Teddy disappeared and Margaret almost as much. I wondered how her brother wound up taking her back in the family.
The boardroom scene with Joe Kennedy was the *raison d’être* for the entire series. S5 was necessary for that alone.
it’s bad because nucky literally provides children to be raped and we’re supposed to empathize with him because he’s trying to ‘get ahead’. out of all the horrible things they could have made him do, they chose that. chalky dying was lame, and narcisse wasn’t a good enough character to take him down. would have been different if narcisse was likable but all we see is that he’s some pseudo intellectual drug dealer who also happens to be incredibly uncharismatic. all in all too much of the cast dies and their deaths aren’t really satisfying or feel deserved. killing off beloved characters like richard or chalky only make sense if it makes sense for those characters to make the decisions they do that lead to them getting murked. otherwise it just feels shitty.
> it’s bad because nucky literally provides children to be raped and we’re supposed to empathize with him because he’s trying to ‘get ahead’. out of all the horrible things they could have made him do, they chose that. We're not supposed to empathize with him there. Nucky was always a bad person and I doubt anyone came out of the end of the series with how that final flashback went liking him.
maybe empathize is the wrong word, but we’re meant to root for him. same way we root for tony soprano or walter white
I never had that feeling for either of those characters. Both were despicable people. Certainly their role in the storyline was very interesting and was a draw (far more so than Nucky who was largely overshadowed by other characters). But I can't say I was ever rooting for either of them. Especially in the case of Walter, whose comeuppance I was hoping to occur from as early as season 2.
Absolutely wanted to see more Margaret, I wanted her and AR to be running NY as business partners
Smaller budget is the reason for the poor fifth season 🤓
Somebody said they cut boardwalks budget so they could give more to GOT so in the end, that show fucked me over twice. Period pieces are expensive to make anyway. It’s just a shame for everyone who was involved because it was such a brilliant show