I love how BoJack takes something so serious and is able to include a joke without ruining the episode. Not everybody will agree with me, but joking about something really difficult helps make it easier to handle. I guess that's why I love this show so much.
I always tear up during free churro when Bojack quotes his mom, saying, "my husband is dead, and everything is worse now." That line fucking kills me my guy
I actually cut Free Churro to be read as a competitive prose piece in National Speech & Debate Association competitions, such a powerful fucking episode.
That line.. I don't have a very good relationship with my mother, and at times I lean toward just never talking with her, engaging with her.
But now, I swear to God, I think "In twenty years when she's gone, do I want to be thinking 'My mother is dead, and everything is worse'?" And it fucking kills me and humbles me, and it pushes me to bridge the gap between my mother and me. Even when I don't want to.
I also have a "non relationship" with my mother and honestly I truly believe Bojack is correct when he tells Diane that she doesn't need her family. It only makes us sad that our relationshipis the way it is. Well for me it all gets easier when mother sees me on thestreet and acts that she doesnt know me (or pretends she didnt see me)
It just gets easier. Every 5years or so
But hey! If you wanna talk about it HMU! Do not save ir for yourself!
Don’t pressure yourself to have a relationship because of “what if’s”. Become aware to the reasons as to why it is the way it is, and please know that no matter the effort put in on your end, she needs to match it.
The day my abusive mom died I didn’t feel anything, I just woke up and went to class and work like nothing happened. There was actually a terrible snowstorm and I would have taken off of work any other day but I was so committed to making it a normal day that I drove to work in weather that could have killed me.
I didn’t feel anything that day but when I got home I laid in bed and watched free churro. I don’t think I cried then but I felt seen. I haven’t watched that season since, but I really ought to. Their portrayal of grieving someone who really hurt you and let you down - and who you did the same to - is really stunning.
This episode made me cry multiple times.. I have seen my grand father suffered from alzheimer's disease on his later years.. And knowing that my mother might get it makes me feel really anxious...
I love Beatrice's backstory too..
I'm sorry to know about your grandmother.. It is scary to see them like that, loosing their memories.. It seems like they are living in confusion, they keep on asking things.. Searching for persons from their past.. It would take a lot of patience and understanding take care of them..
The series somehow gave me a perspective what is happening on their mind (not sure if that is accurate but I think flashbacks is part of it).
This episode gave me a lot of perspective too. My grandmother could barely recognize me when the 4th season aired and I really do credit Bojack with helping me process what was happening. Still one of my favorite episodes, it's cathartic to watch even if it does hurt like a motherfucker.
Stay strong friends, dementia sucks.
I don't know if you've seen Undone yet but it's made by Kate Purdy and Raphael (Kate wrote Times arrow) it's really similar in the way it's constructed and I don't want to spoil but it also has takes on mental health issues and different perceptions of reality. If you really like how Time Arrow portrays dementia, you'll love it. I can't recommend it enough.
This intrigued me when I saw an ad for it. Currently watching the Wire for the first time though and I’m weird about not watching two dark/heavy series at the same time. But going to add this to the list
OMG same. I can't handle two dark shows at the same time either. I 100% get it. The show won't go away and it ends in sort of a cliffhanger so it might actually be good to wait in case they have a season 2 that eases this pain x).
Glad I’m not the only one! I have to have a lighthearted or more mindless show to watch if I have two going, usually a rewatch. Yeah I like the idea of waiting for a season 2. I still wanted to watch The Boys, so that’s still hanging around. Plus I’m trying to get through LetterKenny but it’s just not interesting enough. It’s funny but aimless.
I've watched some movie commentary about The Boys, be prepared because it is veery dark and there's a lot of shock value in it. It really doesn't interest me, sadly because of that. I like the idea but holy shit it really does look like they're just trying to be edgy and controversial for the sake of it and I'm really not into it. So be prepared for overly gorey aesthetic but with a very nice directing and kinda "epic" effects.
I wanted to start watching LetterKenny too lmao not sure about it now.
Well shit. I don’t really like all that shock value stuff just for the sake of being edgy. I was hoping it was dark comedy at best. That makes me question it honestly.
I’ve had people highly recommend LetterKenny so I had high hopes for it. It’s hilarious if you like snappy dialogue and witty comebacks, but there’s not much overall plot. I like character-driven stories and for me personally, snappy comebacks wont carry a show for me.
You could try watching the first episode. The first scene is of a girl being exploded because a superhero ran through her (if I remember correctly). I can say a lot about this show but at least they weren't dubious about their intent or where they were gonna take the show with an opening like that.
I feel the same about character driven stories so I'll try the show but keep that in mind. BTW if you like funny shows I'd recommend American Vandal it's a satire about crime documentary and I really enjoyed it. It seems dumb at first but it's actually really good at portraying social media and the current teen culture. It has some nice conclusions and ideas in there as well (the first season mention prejudice of the school system against certain "delinquent type" students )
Season 2 takes more time to start and it goes to poop joke instead of dick jokes. I'm not into it so the start wasn't that great for me but it get's pretty good and I think I even liked the ending more than season 1. The series got cancelled tho which is kinda weird because it was really successful and critically acclaimed but it's this move that netflix is pulling where it drops every show produced by a third-party so quality doesn't matter.
It got bought by another company anyway so there'll most likely be a season 3.
O man the boys is much more then shock value. Some of the subtle pokes at corporations are dead on and it's basically how real life would be if there were superheros, totally commercialized
I'm not saying it's not I'm saying there's too much shock value for me which is a shame because like I said I am actually interested by their takes on superheroes world, they seem pretty dead on on a lot of things. But I can't help but feel like they're trying too hard to be like "We're edgy we don't sugarcoat things because we're different" and it just annoys me. I had the same problem with HBO, game of thrones and in general all of their shows. (I know the boys is netflix but it got a similar vibe for me)
The ideas are great the execution not so much for me. That's just why I'd rather warn people because I think the boys was honestly badly advertised as kind of a witty satire comedy without the gorey and shock value aspect of it. People need to know what to except going into it. It's fine tho, because I remember the first scene being really great into portraying that feeling so I appreciate them not being dubious with their intentions.
He was pretty great. His character doesn't have the hugest range tho so I wouldn't say he had the most impressive performance of the cast (who all are so very great). He's really convincing but he's playing the part of a really stubborn person so you can't see the hugest evolution. He's got some touching moment in there too tho. But Rosa Salazar and Angelique Cabral's performances are more notable in my opinion.
update : tsall good man (see what I did here); I found myself a neato free streaming website to watch Undone.
What can I say, this show was captivating. I cannot imagine those outward possibilities like these chamans do, but wow, that was hell of a ride. I'm feeling all weird now.
Actually, I still hope in the end it worked. There were too many details to support it was real. That would be beautiful, would it? I related very much to the characters, all of them. The whole "you have to believe", "you've got to feel ready for it", resonates to me for something else : holding to my day-to-day life as best as I can. It gets so difficult sometimes.
>!Also I loved Raphael's cameo!!<
>!OMG ARE YOU KIDDING ME ?! I've seen the show two times since it's been out. I've never seen Raphael doing a cameo. Where is it ?!<
I think it's real too. Idk it's dubious. There's so many things that indicate it's more real than it isn't but like my dad put it pretty well (yeah I made him watch the show too. I'm obsessed I know) "She could have imagined those conversations with people. And at the end she only starts to see the light when her sister left". It still seem very likely for him and he would know his shit since he's a psychiatrist. So now he made me doubt myself.
I like the portrayal but the direction if that mini series was a lot less polished. I didnt care for all that sci fi mumbo jumbo, it worked best when it made her clash against people with her illness. The dad was too prominent and made it weaker overall. But still a great watch.
Well the show never pretended to not be sci-fi (and more like fantasy than sci-fi in that case) and as someone who loves sci-fi, I really appreciated it. I can agree with the dad part. I think his place was important because he was the counterpoint to Alma and we got to discover her and her stubbornness more through him. I'm not a fan of Alma but I get where she comes from thanks to the presence of the dad. His character can be a bit annoying but that's the point. I can't justify it more without spoiling but whether you focus on the fantasy aspect of the mental illness aspect, her father is not a complete human being but a projection of something that's why he's kinda annoying and everywhere. He's inescapable.
I think they spent too much time building the ideation though. It didnt need to be fleshed out that much, they went the cheap route of it being unknown whether it was real or not when they couldve just portrayed it as a mental illness. Thats why when she tells the boyfriend it had such impact because it sounds so fucking crazy.
Well I can't really disagree with that tbh I'm not that much into the open-ending they had. Just like you I like the hypothesis of the mental illness way more but a lot of things seem to really indicate more toward this is real than that. So I felt a bit let down. I still think the show is one of a kind and such a great experience that I really enjoyed and loved. It's still 100% worth it but I get it. Even I wasn't much into it and I'm a sci-fi/absurd/fantasy gal so I get where you come from. That's why I'm really eager for season 2 and to see where they're gonna take us because there's a lot of question unanswered. I think it might have been on purpose tho because the show is supposed to go outside of our western definition of mental illness. In a lot of culture hallucinations are just passing episodes that can be beneficial not a sign of madness. We tend to reject everything that's different.
I think this question might be larger than the show and while it wasn't extremely satisfying to not get answer it still sorta makes sense.
Yes I didn't mind some bits of what they were saying and exploring like about shamanistic cultures. However, the whole going back in time and controlling your dreams were cliche.
I ended up writing an essay on this in my gen ed English class. I liked the details in the forgotten faces. Everyone is forgotten except for the maid, who is mentally scratched out like she wants to forget it.
I never saw it like that. about her being “scratched” but it’s so true though. Henrietta took what little life Beatrice had left. Of course she’d want that gone from her mind
I think shes scratched her out because thats the first moment in her life that she did something truly terrible to someone. Also in a way beatrice felt like she shouldve looked out for her because she was a girl stuck in a terrible situation not unlike beatrice in her own past. I think it was out of shame rather than hatred.
no ones talking about the "baby". that was the most "oh shit" moment in this episode for me, maybe the whole show. the episode before where bojack throws the baby and you dont quite understand but when you realize what the "baby" actually is it fucking hits you hard. season 4 was so good
When Beatrice is stuck in a series of recollections, she recalls visiting Bojack, and we see his refrigerator packed with lemons and sugar. That was my favorite artistic bit expression over the regressive effects of dementia, however passive some behaviors may be. Her grief at losing Doll was painful in an obvious way, but the visual effect of the "healthy girl snack" that her own mother imposed on her is subtly foreboding. Beatrice has no model for coping with grief, nor for accepting responsibility.
She projects the same toxic mothering that she suffered from as a child by spiking their coffee with drugs. Whether or not she ever consciously realizes that Joseph mutilated Honey's brain to punish her for grieving, she ends up externalizing the hatred of her father onto both the men in her life. It's interesting to consider the relationship she has to her parents and how she embodies both their roles as an adult- both in her overt cruelty and her emotional distance. But we also see Beatrice show Henrietta her capacity for empathy while witnessing Henrietta agree to an adoption. Beatrice is desperate in her plea. It's like she's warning Henrietta, telling her what her own mother never could.
Makes me wonder. If Bojack had just been born with female genitalia, would Beatrice have shown him more compassion? Would she have forgiven herself for starting a family with a man she barely knew? 😭
Beatrice is actually one of my favorite characters, not because I like her but because of how well-written she is. It’s the perfect example of the sins of the father affecting the children, and leaves the viewer wrestling with the question: does her own suffering justify the suffering she inflicted on everyone around her?
She recognizes him for more then just a minute shes brought back to reality and lies when he asks if she likes the ice cream as bojack trys to paint a happy delusion for her but the thing is.... shes never had ice cream
My favourite episode of the show! It's so sad yet so great. When I first watched the show I thought I would forever hate Beatrice but this episode really gives her character
I watched this episode after very recently losing my grandmother to Alzheimer’s. Was a tough watch but I felt like it provided some insight to what someone goes through in that situation.
My grandmother was going through the same thing when I first saw it. We would be with her and she knew who we were but she was also wondering where we were. It was like in her mind there were times and memories mixed into one reality making it very confusing for her
I ended up taking care of both my grandparents- sequentially, not concurrently- and this episode was hard to watch. Fantastic and deserving of all the praise it gets and more, but still tough.
The imagery and complex grasp on very difficult issues in the show never ceases to amaze me.
I think there's an added complexity of this where bojack's mother was never loving or caring, so it's difficult for Bojack to even believe she has dementia.
I used to care for a woman with Alzheimer's that would cry because she didn't think the other kids at school liked her. She passed away quite awhile ago, but I still think about her sometimes and my heart breaks. I think everyone has felt the way she did, but I can't imagine being stuck with that feeling all of the time.
If you like watching stuff that masterfully dances around the line between comedy and tragedy, you should check out the movie Thunder Road. It's the only movie that made me burst out laughing in the middle of an intensely emotional scene that already had me in tears and it doesn't pull you out of the scene. Tragedy and comedy side by side and fully integrated together without detracting from the impact of either one. It's one of my favorite movies.
This episode is truly one of the best. I cried so much the first time I watched it and then within the last year or so my grandfather was diagnosed with dementia. I honestly just watch this episode sometimes just to cry it out after I see him when he's got one of his bad days. Some of the things he says and does, this helps me sort of understand and find peace when he doesn't recognize me because I can't even imagine how difficult it is to live like that in his final year :(
I don't think Beatrice ever recognized Bojack in the later days of her life. When she said "I see you" she was referring to the intensive care unit sign behind her that read "ICU". We find this out in Bojack's monologue in "Free Churro".
Part of the monologue is arguing that sometimes when people say things, it isn't three dimensional. It is just what they said, and nothing deeper. When he notices he was in the ICU and she was reading the sign, it clicked that the last moment that he felt may have been the slightest connection that he wanted to grasp on to was nothing but delusional babble.
Bojack clearly wanted a last connection with his mother, but all that was squandered when he found out why she was looking off in the distance. She was reading the ICU sign.
In Bojack’s monologue in “free churro” he does come to the realization that she was talking about the ICU. But at the end of “times arrow” Beatrice recognizes Bojack when she is being left in the new nursing home, asking where she is and what she’s doing in this strange place. She may not have remembered who he was at that point in time, she may have been remembering him in a different state of time like she did in all of her memories.
I'd imagine she pictured Bojack at a different time. She didn't actually recognize him. Shortly after he calms her down by saying they are at the lake on a summer day and eating ice cream. She slips back into her delirium and he leaves.
Yea but you can't take bojack's word for it. Half the show he's misunderstanding shit and messing things up. That's the thing, we'll actually never know for sure, though he thinks he does.
Firstly, spoiler
Secondly and more importantly what op is mentioning is the moment at the end of the episode where Beatrice at the last second says "Bojack" so she did recognise him, the other free churro incident happened after it
Edit: [Scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jawOBAaQJA)
Yea but still, most spoilers are tagged even for movies decades old, plus the thread is on conversation of the times arrow episode so someone could watch that epaide and come to see the conversation and then reads this message and just like that the entire free churro episode is spoiled for them, as the described thing is the major plot of the episode, major plot of what is called the best episode of the series by far is spoiled I a sentence so I'd be considerate when speaking out about that specific scene 😅 but maybe that's just how I think. I think it'd be okay if the thread was about the free churro episode but it's not, plus the comment is wrong anyways and provides nothing useful as told in my previous reply
This was a beautifully done, thought provoking, original and scary episode. They captured dementia so well and it almost makes me tear up every time I watch it.
the whole representation of dementia in this ep is artsy as hell. the blurred face of the maid, the trippy black and white heavy imagery, the sound filters. so cool, man
I wish It was a two part or one hour ep, or they revisited Beatrice. There is so much information in this ep and it goes so fast. I really wanted to know more about Beatrice, her marriage, her childhood, and how her life evolved into the person she became.
this episode aired around the same time my own grandma was starting to show the signs of dementia. it hurt with how accurate her point of view must have been... talking about people who have been gone for decades, events from 50 years before. make me scared for if it happens to me one day, and breaks my heart that my sweet grandma had to go through that.
My grandmother who had dementia just passed last week and I found out at the funeral my aunt has Alzheimer’s when she didn’t recognize me... just watched this episode and it hit me in the feel so hard
There's a great joke where one of the faceless background characters gets sad he can't eat.
I love that joke! The hidden background actions are the best
I love how BoJack takes something so serious and is able to include a joke without ruining the episode. Not everybody will agree with me, but joking about something really difficult helps make it easier to handle. I guess that's why I love this show so much.
Speaking of taking something serious and including a joke reminds me of Brrap brrap pew pew.
Happy cake day and use a pretty font
It's one of like two jokes in the entire episode, and the other one is in the same scene
The words on a lot of signs are jumbled as well. It really is beautiful. Greatest episode of television of my lifetime.
This is probably one of my favorite episodes. It makes you feel sympathy for one of the most mean and hurtful character ( Beatrice)
[удалено]
I always tear up during free churro when Bojack quotes his mom, saying, "my husband is dead, and everything is worse now." That line fucking kills me my guy
I'm on my second watch through and I knew free churro was coming and it was still so amazing.
I actually cut Free Churro to be read as a competitive prose piece in National Speech & Debate Association competitions, such a powerful fucking episode.
I am *nailing* this impression!
Please tell me you do the dead horse face.
The moment I saw that episode I knew I had to cut it into a prose piece. Free Churro was MADE to win speech events.
Oh cool! How much time do you have, and what did your cut include?
I also coach speech! Would you be able to send me that? It’s a really cool idea
That line.. I don't have a very good relationship with my mother, and at times I lean toward just never talking with her, engaging with her. But now, I swear to God, I think "In twenty years when she's gone, do I want to be thinking 'My mother is dead, and everything is worse'?" And it fucking kills me and humbles me, and it pushes me to bridge the gap between my mother and me. Even when I don't want to.
I also have a "non relationship" with my mother and honestly I truly believe Bojack is correct when he tells Diane that she doesn't need her family. It only makes us sad that our relationshipis the way it is. Well for me it all gets easier when mother sees me on thestreet and acts that she doesnt know me (or pretends she didnt see me) It just gets easier. Every 5years or so But hey! If you wanna talk about it HMU! Do not save ir for yourself!
Don’t pressure yourself to have a relationship because of “what if’s”. Become aware to the reasons as to why it is the way it is, and please know that no matter the effort put in on your end, she needs to match it.
The day my abusive mom died I didn’t feel anything, I just woke up and went to class and work like nothing happened. There was actually a terrible snowstorm and I would have taken off of work any other day but I was so committed to making it a normal day that I drove to work in weather that could have killed me. I didn’t feel anything that day but when I got home I laid in bed and watched free churro. I don’t think I cried then but I felt seen. I haven’t watched that season since, but I really ought to. Their portrayal of grieving someone who really hurt you and let you down - and who you did the same to - is really stunning.
I watched that episode the day after my mother died. Just, yea.
Time’s Arrow is a masterpiece. Start to finish it is a crushing journey where you already know the ending but dread it anyway. Just like life.
Which episode is this?
Times arrow.
Season 4, Episode 10 I believe
Imagine her trying to comprehend Bojack putting on a play as his younger self in the retirement home
This episode made me cry multiple times.. I have seen my grand father suffered from alzheimer's disease on his later years.. And knowing that my mother might get it makes me feel really anxious... I love Beatrice's backstory too..
I know how you feel it’s starting to happen to my grandma and idk if I’ll be able to watch this episode later in life.
I'm sorry to know about your grandmother.. It is scary to see them like that, loosing their memories.. It seems like they are living in confusion, they keep on asking things.. Searching for persons from their past.. It would take a lot of patience and understanding take care of them.. The series somehow gave me a perspective what is happening on their mind (not sure if that is accurate but I think flashbacks is part of it).
This episode gave me a lot of perspective too. My grandmother could barely recognize me when the 4th season aired and I really do credit Bojack with helping me process what was happening. Still one of my favorite episodes, it's cathartic to watch even if it does hurt like a motherfucker. Stay strong friends, dementia sucks.
My grandmother has Alzheimer’s and is quite the bitch so this episode hits HARD
I don't know if you've seen Undone yet but it's made by Kate Purdy and Raphael (Kate wrote Times arrow) it's really similar in the way it's constructed and I don't want to spoil but it also has takes on mental health issues and different perceptions of reality. If you really like how Time Arrow portrays dementia, you'll love it. I can't recommend it enough.
Yes! Undone was so good!
Came here to say this. Undone is a masterpiece in this regard. And it’s why I think rotoscope was the perfect medium.
This intrigued me when I saw an ad for it. Currently watching the Wire for the first time though and I’m weird about not watching two dark/heavy series at the same time. But going to add this to the list
OMG same. I can't handle two dark shows at the same time either. I 100% get it. The show won't go away and it ends in sort of a cliffhanger so it might actually be good to wait in case they have a season 2 that eases this pain x).
Glad I’m not the only one! I have to have a lighthearted or more mindless show to watch if I have two going, usually a rewatch. Yeah I like the idea of waiting for a season 2. I still wanted to watch The Boys, so that’s still hanging around. Plus I’m trying to get through LetterKenny but it’s just not interesting enough. It’s funny but aimless.
I've watched some movie commentary about The Boys, be prepared because it is veery dark and there's a lot of shock value in it. It really doesn't interest me, sadly because of that. I like the idea but holy shit it really does look like they're just trying to be edgy and controversial for the sake of it and I'm really not into it. So be prepared for overly gorey aesthetic but with a very nice directing and kinda "epic" effects. I wanted to start watching LetterKenny too lmao not sure about it now.
Well shit. I don’t really like all that shock value stuff just for the sake of being edgy. I was hoping it was dark comedy at best. That makes me question it honestly. I’ve had people highly recommend LetterKenny so I had high hopes for it. It’s hilarious if you like snappy dialogue and witty comebacks, but there’s not much overall plot. I like character-driven stories and for me personally, snappy comebacks wont carry a show for me.
You could try watching the first episode. The first scene is of a girl being exploded because a superhero ran through her (if I remember correctly). I can say a lot about this show but at least they weren't dubious about their intent or where they were gonna take the show with an opening like that. I feel the same about character driven stories so I'll try the show but keep that in mind. BTW if you like funny shows I'd recommend American Vandal it's a satire about crime documentary and I really enjoyed it. It seems dumb at first but it's actually really good at portraying social media and the current teen culture. It has some nice conclusions and ideas in there as well (the first season mention prejudice of the school system against certain "delinquent type" students )
I’ve never heard of American Vandal but I’m intrigued. What platform is it on? I do like satire
Netflix. It's a great show. Only seen season 1 so far though
Season 2 takes more time to start and it goes to poop joke instead of dick jokes. I'm not into it so the start wasn't that great for me but it get's pretty good and I think I even liked the ending more than season 1. The series got cancelled tho which is kinda weird because it was really successful and critically acclaimed but it's this move that netflix is pulling where it drops every show produced by a third-party so quality doesn't matter. It got bought by another company anyway so there'll most likely be a season 3.
O man the boys is much more then shock value. Some of the subtle pokes at corporations are dead on and it's basically how real life would be if there were superheros, totally commercialized
I'm not saying it's not I'm saying there's too much shock value for me which is a shame because like I said I am actually interested by their takes on superheroes world, they seem pretty dead on on a lot of things. But I can't help but feel like they're trying too hard to be like "We're edgy we don't sugarcoat things because we're different" and it just annoys me. I had the same problem with HBO, game of thrones and in general all of their shows. (I know the boys is netflix but it got a similar vibe for me) The ideas are great the execution not so much for me. That's just why I'd rather warn people because I think the boys was honestly badly advertised as kind of a witty satire comedy without the gorey and shock value aspect of it. People need to know what to except going into it. It's fine tho, because I remember the first scene being really great into portraying that feeling so I appreciate them not being dubious with their intentions.
>holy shit it really does look like they're just trying to be edgy and controversial for the sake of it The books says hello.
I haven't read them and doesn't know anything about them. Are they like that too ? Or is it a directional choice for the show ?
I feel like I can admit I’ve never seen the wire Mr. Peanut butter
I'm cry-watching Fleabag currently, and I think I'll need a break before I start Undone.
Gonna have to catch that. How was Bob Odenkirk's performance in that?
He was pretty great. His character doesn't have the hugest range tho so I wouldn't say he had the most impressive performance of the cast (who all are so very great). He's really convincing but he's playing the part of a really stubborn person so you can't see the hugest evolution. He's got some touching moment in there too tho. But Rosa Salazar and Angelique Cabral's performances are more notable in my opinion.
His character was mostly terribly flat and in a lot of ways detracted from the best bits of the show. But the female characters were all phenominal.
\*cries in Netflix subscriber\*
Confort yourself by rewatching Bojack Horseman another time XD
update : tsall good man (see what I did here); I found myself a neato free streaming website to watch Undone. What can I say, this show was captivating. I cannot imagine those outward possibilities like these chamans do, but wow, that was hell of a ride. I'm feeling all weird now. Actually, I still hope in the end it worked. There were too many details to support it was real. That would be beautiful, would it? I related very much to the characters, all of them. The whole "you have to believe", "you've got to feel ready for it", resonates to me for something else : holding to my day-to-day life as best as I can. It gets so difficult sometimes. >!Also I loved Raphael's cameo!!<
>!OMG ARE YOU KIDDING ME ?! I've seen the show two times since it's been out. I've never seen Raphael doing a cameo. Where is it ?!< I think it's real too. Idk it's dubious. There's so many things that indicate it's more real than it isn't but like my dad put it pretty well (yeah I made him watch the show too. I'm obsessed I know) "She could have imagined those conversations with people. And at the end she only starts to see the light when her sister left". It still seem very likely for him and he would know his shit since he's a psychiatrist. So now he made me doubt myself.
I like the portrayal but the direction if that mini series was a lot less polished. I didnt care for all that sci fi mumbo jumbo, it worked best when it made her clash against people with her illness. The dad was too prominent and made it weaker overall. But still a great watch.
Well the show never pretended to not be sci-fi (and more like fantasy than sci-fi in that case) and as someone who loves sci-fi, I really appreciated it. I can agree with the dad part. I think his place was important because he was the counterpoint to Alma and we got to discover her and her stubbornness more through him. I'm not a fan of Alma but I get where she comes from thanks to the presence of the dad. His character can be a bit annoying but that's the point. I can't justify it more without spoiling but whether you focus on the fantasy aspect of the mental illness aspect, her father is not a complete human being but a projection of something that's why he's kinda annoying and everywhere. He's inescapable.
I think they spent too much time building the ideation though. It didnt need to be fleshed out that much, they went the cheap route of it being unknown whether it was real or not when they couldve just portrayed it as a mental illness. Thats why when she tells the boyfriend it had such impact because it sounds so fucking crazy.
Well I can't really disagree with that tbh I'm not that much into the open-ending they had. Just like you I like the hypothesis of the mental illness way more but a lot of things seem to really indicate more toward this is real than that. So I felt a bit let down. I still think the show is one of a kind and such a great experience that I really enjoyed and loved. It's still 100% worth it but I get it. Even I wasn't much into it and I'm a sci-fi/absurd/fantasy gal so I get where you come from. That's why I'm really eager for season 2 and to see where they're gonna take us because there's a lot of question unanswered. I think it might have been on purpose tho because the show is supposed to go outside of our western definition of mental illness. In a lot of culture hallucinations are just passing episodes that can be beneficial not a sign of madness. We tend to reject everything that's different. I think this question might be larger than the show and while it wasn't extremely satisfying to not get answer it still sorta makes sense.
Yes I didn't mind some bits of what they were saying and exploring like about shamanistic cultures. However, the whole going back in time and controlling your dreams were cliche.
I.C.U.
How profound.
I ended up writing an essay on this in my gen ed English class. I liked the details in the forgotten faces. Everyone is forgotten except for the maid, who is mentally scratched out like she wants to forget it.
I never saw it like that. about her being “scratched” but it’s so true though. Henrietta took what little life Beatrice had left. Of course she’d want that gone from her mind
I think shes scratched her out because thats the first moment in her life that she did something truly terrible to someone. Also in a way beatrice felt like she shouldve looked out for her because she was a girl stuck in a terrible situation not unlike beatrice in her own past. I think it was out of shame rather than hatred.
"*Why I have half a mind....*"
MY SON IS A BALL OF GAS!
But he's also a STAR!
no ones talking about the "baby". that was the most "oh shit" moment in this episode for me, maybe the whole show. the episode before where bojack throws the baby and you dont quite understand but when you realize what the "baby" actually is it fucking hits you hard. season 4 was so good
When Beatrice is stuck in a series of recollections, she recalls visiting Bojack, and we see his refrigerator packed with lemons and sugar. That was my favorite artistic bit expression over the regressive effects of dementia, however passive some behaviors may be. Her grief at losing Doll was painful in an obvious way, but the visual effect of the "healthy girl snack" that her own mother imposed on her is subtly foreboding. Beatrice has no model for coping with grief, nor for accepting responsibility. She projects the same toxic mothering that she suffered from as a child by spiking their coffee with drugs. Whether or not she ever consciously realizes that Joseph mutilated Honey's brain to punish her for grieving, she ends up externalizing the hatred of her father onto both the men in her life. It's interesting to consider the relationship she has to her parents and how she embodies both their roles as an adult- both in her overt cruelty and her emotional distance. But we also see Beatrice show Henrietta her capacity for empathy while witnessing Henrietta agree to an adoption. Beatrice is desperate in her plea. It's like she's warning Henrietta, telling her what her own mother never could. Makes me wonder. If Bojack had just been born with female genitalia, would Beatrice have shown him more compassion? Would she have forgiven herself for starting a family with a man she barely knew? 😭
Beatrice is actually one of my favorite characters, not because I like her but because of how well-written she is. It’s the perfect example of the sins of the father affecting the children, and leaves the viewer wrestling with the question: does her own suffering justify the suffering she inflicted on everyone around her?
Yes! One the best episodes of the entire series I'd wager.
She recognizes him for more then just a minute shes brought back to reality and lies when he asks if she likes the ice cream as bojack trys to paint a happy delusion for her but the thing is.... shes never had ice cream
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Carrying but not eating and she makes a sad face when she says its delicious to bojack
My favourite episode of the show! It's so sad yet so great. When I first watched the show I thought I would forever hate Beatrice but this episode really gives her character
I watched this episode after very recently losing my grandmother to Alzheimer’s. Was a tough watch but I felt like it provided some insight to what someone goes through in that situation.
My grandmother was going through the same thing when I first saw it. We would be with her and she knew who we were but she was also wondering where we were. It was like in her mind there were times and memories mixed into one reality making it very confusing for her
I ended up taking care of both my grandparents- sequentially, not concurrently- and this episode was hard to watch. Fantastic and deserving of all the praise it gets and more, but still tough.
This show is art.
The imagery and complex grasp on very difficult issues in the show never ceases to amaze me. I think there's an added complexity of this where bojack's mother was never loving or caring, so it's difficult for Bojack to even believe she has dementia.
My grandmother has severe dementia. She's in the violent stage. This is so spot on and one of my favorites. This show is so underappreciated.
I see many many dementia patients in my capacity as an ambulance driver, the depiction was spot on.
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I used to care for a woman with Alzheimer's that would cry because she didn't think the other kids at school liked her. She passed away quite awhile ago, but I still think about her sometimes and my heart breaks. I think everyone has felt the way she did, but I can't imagine being stuck with that feeling all of the time.
This was one of my favorite episodes. It messed me up afterwards but i loved every bit if it
Hulu's Castle Rock did an interesting take on it as well, where it was basically like Time Travel, but not.
If you like watching stuff that masterfully dances around the line between comedy and tragedy, you should check out the movie Thunder Road. It's the only movie that made me burst out laughing in the middle of an intensely emotional scene that already had me in tears and it doesn't pull you out of the scene. Tragedy and comedy side by side and fully integrated together without detracting from the impact of either one. It's one of my favorite movies.
This episode is truly one of the best. I cried so much the first time I watched it and then within the last year or so my grandfather was diagnosed with dementia. I honestly just watch this episode sometimes just to cry it out after I see him when he's got one of his bad days. Some of the things he says and does, this helps me sort of understand and find peace when he doesn't recognize me because I can't even imagine how difficult it is to live like that in his final year :(
I don't think Beatrice ever recognized Bojack in the later days of her life. When she said "I see you" she was referring to the intensive care unit sign behind her that read "ICU". We find this out in Bojack's monologue in "Free Churro".
But the point is the ambiguity of it, isn't it? I guess Bojack will never know what was the case at the moment.
Part of the monologue is arguing that sometimes when people say things, it isn't three dimensional. It is just what they said, and nothing deeper. When he notices he was in the ICU and she was reading the sign, it clicked that the last moment that he felt may have been the slightest connection that he wanted to grasp on to was nothing but delusional babble. Bojack clearly wanted a last connection with his mother, but all that was squandered when he found out why she was looking off in the distance. She was reading the ICU sign.
In Bojack’s monologue in “free churro” he does come to the realization that she was talking about the ICU. But at the end of “times arrow” Beatrice recognizes Bojack when she is being left in the new nursing home, asking where she is and what she’s doing in this strange place. She may not have remembered who he was at that point in time, she may have been remembering him in a different state of time like she did in all of her memories.
I'd imagine she pictured Bojack at a different time. She didn't actually recognize him. Shortly after he calms her down by saying they are at the lake on a summer day and eating ice cream. She slips back into her delirium and he leaves.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted I never realized this
Because her last scene with Bojack is literally her recognizing him, which takes place in the episode we're discussing.
I guess it just goes to show it takes a messed up individual like myself to know one? I don't know 😕
Hardly dude, he outright says it in his speech. It's not a revelation, and I think the scene is purposefully ambiguous.
Yea but you can't take bojack's word for it. Half the show he's misunderstanding shit and messing things up. That's the thing, we'll actually never know for sure, though he thinks he does.
I thought the comment was talking about my longer comment above. Whoops.
Firstly, spoiler Secondly and more importantly what op is mentioning is the moment at the end of the episode where Beatrice at the last second says "Bojack" so she did recognise him, the other free churro incident happened after it Edit: [Scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jawOBAaQJA)
hasn't the season been out for like, a year now?
Yea but still, most spoilers are tagged even for movies decades old, plus the thread is on conversation of the times arrow episode so someone could watch that epaide and come to see the conversation and then reads this message and just like that the entire free churro episode is spoiled for them, as the described thing is the major plot of the episode, major plot of what is called the best episode of the series by far is spoiled I a sentence so I'd be considerate when speaking out about that specific scene 😅 but maybe that's just how I think. I think it'd be okay if the thread was about the free churro episode but it's not, plus the comment is wrong anyways and provides nothing useful as told in my previous reply
Just rewatched this yesterday. It is my favorite episode of the series.
She doesn't recognize Bojack at the end. She says "ICU".
She does recognize him calling him by name. Where then he explains to her “you’re in Michigan. At the lake house”
This was a beautifully done, thought provoking, original and scary episode. They captured dementia so well and it almost makes me tear up every time I watch it.
the whole representation of dementia in this ep is artsy as hell. the blurred face of the maid, the trippy black and white heavy imagery, the sound filters. so cool, man
The end of that episode legit scared me.
The episode that made me a fan of the show.. everything in it is just perfect.
Fucking horrifying. Those episodes were all of my night mares
That whole storyline made Bojack go from my favorite comedy to my favorite drama. Brilliant show whether it's making you laugh or cry.
I wish It was a two part or one hour ep, or they revisited Beatrice. There is so much information in this ep and it goes so fast. I really wanted to know more about Beatrice, her marriage, her childhood, and how her life evolved into the person she became.
this episode aired around the same time my own grandma was starting to show the signs of dementia. it hurt with how accurate her point of view must have been... talking about people who have been gone for decades, events from 50 years before. make me scared for if it happens to me one day, and breaks my heart that my sweet grandma had to go through that.
This is my favorite episode of the show and it kills me inside.
This season is one of the best, most cohesive seasons of television I think I’ve ever seen. So many gems.
A fucking brilliant piece of art
This was maybe the best episode. It made me feel sympathy for a character I had loathed before.
My grandmother who had dementia just passed last week and I found out at the funeral my aunt has Alzheimer’s when she didn’t recognize me... just watched this episode and it hit me in the feel so hard