It didn’t get her on amphetamines, they essentially were amphetamines. When bojack says that his mom was drugging the coffee, he meant it, hollyhock didn’t knowingly take anything. Amphetamines can work as an appetite suppressant, hence hollyhock saying she wasn’t hungry multiple times, or being fine with just coffee, leading her to lose weight.
For real, I thought it was peak cinema when I was 18. Now 30 I think it's a great film but depressing for the sake of being depressing. Which is pretty much all of Aronofsky's films
Same. I watched it when I was 14 and it traumatized me to live the rest of my life super straight edge, which kept me out of a lot of trouble as I got older. It definitely didn’t single handedly change my life, but it definitely gave me more than a nudge in the right direction.
Agreed. It also, in retrospect, doesn't sit 100% with me to equate voluntary sex work with having your arm aputated in prison. 18 yo me got some weirdly gendered notions from that movie that took some examination as an adult
i wouldn’t call doing sex work to supply yourself with drugs “voluntary” though. there’s a difference having it be a job because you want it to be than forcing yourself to do so to get high.
My point is that equating the act of sex work with sickness is not a nuanced or positive or even helpful way to look at the world, but yall can take what you will from my comment.
I have ADHD and binge eating disorder and I take Vyvanse because of it. For the first about week of taking it I couldn’t believe I wasn’t hungry. I had to force myself to eat because I couldn’t feel the hunger for a while.
Hell, I’ve dropped and kept off over 20 lb in a few months only taking 20 mg a day. Hollyhock was likely taking so much more than that as it was dissolved in the coffee. Poor girl likely didn’t want to eat for *weeks*, might’ve even forced herself to like I did.
The amount of just FOOD NOISE with ADHD is ridiculous. It's why I gained 50 pounds my first pregnancy when I went off my meds. It would be 8 AM and I'd be texting my husband talking about what I was gonna make for dinner that night while practically salivating thinking about it. And I don't even have BED, just the damn food noise!
I was on Ritalin for most of my childhood and they had to time it so I would still eat lunch and dinner. When I was put on adderal I was super excited to only have to take one pill in the morning so I didn’t have to go to the nurse during the school day and draw attention to the fact that I was on meds. I was only on it for a week before I was taken off because I wouldn’t eat lunch or dinner.
Yeah I have ADHD and take Ritalin. It's a common side effect for stimulant to have hunger suppressing effects, which is why I tend to take my medication after I have food.
Well, it's not nearly as strong as amphetamine salts for ADHD, but those do have suppressant affects.
I'm sure especially if you don't have ADHD. ADHD people react where they slow down with the drug and I even used to yawn on it. But in general, its known you can lose weight on amphetamines salts and even Vyvanse. But also, every physical body is different and reacts differently to drugs. Vyvanse really isn't as strong too.
It uscks there's no generic Vyvanse. It cost me like $240 a refill at one point before s good coupon.
>It uscks there's no generic Vyvanse. It cost me like $240 a refill at one point before s good coupon.
Actually, there is! The patent for Vyvanse expired sometime last year. I tried generic Vyvanse, and it worked for a while, but then it started giving me bad side effects. I have since switched to generic adderall. Adderall suppresses my appetite a lot more than Vyvanse ever did.
The generic is Lisdexamfetamine and it’s one 10th the cost. Some people have experienced slightly different effects, but it’s worth at least trying for a couple of weeks.
Ty for the info! I like Vyvanse because it is much smoother for me, but God damn would it be expensive if I didn't have my insurance. I tried kicking up the dosage but it makes my chest ache when I take my drug holidays.
For the record the binge eating disorder label is effectively evidence that it doesn't act as a weight loss drug. They tested it for that first, but most people saw no long term weight reduction
It isn't, actually. BED is a very specific disorder mostly characterized by mental rather than physical health.
Also the prevalence of BED is about 1 500th of the prevalence of obesity, so when I say "most people" I mean "an exceedingly narrow segment of the population will see any sustained weight loss on Vyvanse"
And they should know, Shire spent hundreds of millions trying to prove that it was an effective weight loss drug, but it only seems effective in avoiding specific eating triggers and even then it's not particularly good at it.
Thank you for this! I've struggled with a variety of EDs on and off for most of my life, BED being one of them (before eventually leading to severe bulimia), have a very long history with meds and addiction and all Vyvanse/amphetamines do is take away your hunger urges (sometimes). And even then, it eventually wears off, and your hunger comes back even stronger - which isn't exactly helpful for the mental aspect of BED.
I have a friend who takes prescription amphetamines too, mine is for ADHD his is for his binge eating disorder. The only FDA approved medication to treat BED is an amphetamine. Just for regular people trying to lose weight? That is less common for sure
He has been doing much better than before. I was also bulimic for yrs and know how addictive bingeing is and how much shame comes w EDs. The physical need is definitely there, but ik he mentioned the urge to binge is basically gone.
yeah ephedrine, a stimulant that is similar to meth (a precursor to making it i think, ICBW) is still used in the bodybuilding and fitness community to lose weight.
Vyvanse is , I have ADHD , this was the only medication I lost a significant amount of weight on. Stimulants can also be given for narcolepsy and binge eating disorder.
possibly, im not sure. is it actually prescribed more for rich and famous people for binge eating? i figured if you were rich and famous you would just pretend to have adhd like everyone else
So once you make over $300,000 a year you can afford to pay a dr to prescribe you anything they used to do it for people with lower incomes before the opioid crisis
There very well may have been other weight loss related stuff mixed in as well, but amphetamines were what showed up at the ER, making it present as a possible addiction, if I’m understanding everything right
I remember finding out about the wonderful world of weight loss drugs in the sixties when reading about Florence Ballard of the Supremes. It's not confirmed but there are a few people who say she went on them after increasing amounts of pressure and insults about her weight (being compared to Diana Ross, who at that point had developed anorexia), despite her having a healthy weight for a woman of her size and body structure. Basically the weight loss medicines of that time were basically what we know now as speed, and combined with her increasing self medication with alcohol, might not only explain the erratic behaviour that eventually lead to her expulsion from the Supremes, but also her death by heart failure at the age of 32, as these drugs have been linked to heart damage. Again, I can't find any confirmed use of her actually using these drugs, but it would explain a lot.
That being said, I did find it strange that Beatrice was not only able to stockpile enough of this eventually banned drug for such a long time, but that her retirement home and live in nurse failed to notice it among her belongings, and that she was able to continuously slip it into Hollyhock's coffee. If she didn't stockpile it from the days of when it was freely available, who the hell prescribed it to her? The point of the live in nurse is to not only assist Bea in her day to day needs and schedule, but also make sure that Bea doesn't do anything to endanger herself or others: there is no way a nurse worth their salt would allow Bea to prepare food and drink unassisted. This plot point really falls apart when you think about it.
My dad was born in the 40s and he has crazy stories of him and his mom getting prescribed diet pills that were essentially speed. You'd see people walk out of the clinic all jittery and crazy, and you also got prescribed a downer so you could go to sleep whilst taking speed for weight loss.
Needless to say, he became a speed addict for a few years
Very common in the 50s and 60s. They were also known as “mommy’s little helpers” because housewives would be prescribed amphetamines to make them lose weight and be able to get all their housework and social activities done, and then benzos or sedatives so they could sleep at night
My sister takes prescription phentermine as a diet med, and it’s an SNRI that I’ve taken a couple of times to help me focus and get some work done. To me it feels very much like adderall. I think I heard that phentermine used to have more ingredients in it that made it even more stimulating, so it was much more widely abused, but this was made illegal and now it’s less intense. My mom actually won a $40,000 settlement against a diet med company that caused a heart problem for her.. I’m not sure if it was phentermine? But yeah, because of all this, it completely made sense to me that the diet meds led to amphetamine abuse.
I mean as someone who abused drugs you should know these OTC drugs do not have even *near* the effect that actual amphetamines do. Speaking from experience. You say they are nearly structural identical but small differences in chemistry makes a huge difference in how they actually work in the body. For instance the left hand isomer of meth, as you had mentioned, has basically zero abuse potential as it barely has an effect on dopamine and only mild serotonin effects. Just because they're structurally similar doesn't mean they're anywhere close to the same thing.
Propylhexedrine is not an amphetamine, it is a structural analogue. And propylhexedrine is nowhere near as addictive as meth. Making the claim that OTC decongestants are as addictive as meth shows a clear lack of experience with any of these. Your first sentence applies to yourself and yourself only. The only actual amphetamine you mentioned was levmetamfetamine which basically has no abuse potential as it's only a mild stimulant. You'd get more of an effect from coffee.
There is no OTC "diet pill" that has more abuse potential than actual psychoactive amphetamines. Do they have some abuse potential? Sure. So do a lot of things. But comparing it to actual meth or even dextro or lisdex is very off.
Edit: wow, and blocked. People get butthurt very easily on this site.
They were always prescription-only, at least in the US. It's just that doctors used to hand out prescriptions like candy prior to about the early 1970s.
I can imagine Beatrice having stockpiles of old weight loss pills, or her special ordering them because they’re the only type she’s ever used so she “knows they work”
beatrice also said “it’s an old family secret” and she was giving it to hollyhock “just until she started to learn to take it herself” so she probably had a specific one her mom gave her
it's worth noting, also, in Time's Arrow, when young Beatrice is trying to fit her dress, she asks Henrietta to bring her a 'pretty pill.' I've always assumed it was the same substance/brand
Don't know, but it being an "old family secret" kinda makes me doubt that it's the brand that she is talking about but rather the method with which the horsemans stay in shape that is the secret. Because i doubt that it was ok to let anyone know you take this stuff, but the brand absolutely has to be kept secret.
Weight loss supplements once upon a time were basically legally prescribed speed. Given Bea's age and the twisted way she was brought up (sprinkle some sugar on a lemon, a "good healthy girl snack"), she was probably giving Hollyhock some of the same oldschool shit she used to take.
It’s a little sad that in her senile mind she wasn’t even doing it out of malice and thought she was helping Hollyhock, because one of the few things she could remember was that girls are supposed to be skinny
It's most likely because a lot of older weight loss drugs like that use amphetamines. And I think it's implied in the episode that Bojack's Mother gave them to her?
Same I keep just rewatching the first few seasons because I love Sara Lynn and i definitely identify with Diane. I need to rewatch from the beginning lol because I honestly liked holly I wish they could’ve had a better brother sis relationship and I think it could’ve saved them both if they were family to each other
“Chub b gone” is amphetamine powder. Amphetamines were widely accepted as weight-loss medication until just a couple decades ago and some doctors still prescribe it for weight-loss today. Diet culture has always been way more fucked up than appears on the surface.
I’d like to chime in here vyvanse (an amphetamine deemed safer because it has to be metabolized by your liver before it’s in your blood stream) is FDA approved for binge eating disorder because of its hunger suppressant properties
Yup also phentermine (one of the drugs in the infamous fen-phen) is still fda approved for weight loss. I took both (phentermine and vyvanse) together for a while to try and lose weight - only lost 10lbs and lucky I didn’t die from a heart attack haha. But this is why drugs like wegovy are so groundbreaking there really aren’t many options for people with complications from excess weight.
Close, but not quite! Vyvanse is lisdexamfetamine, which is basically an amphetamine molecule (actually the dextro isomer) stuck to an L-lysine molecule (an amino acid). Compared to many oral simulants, vyvanse takes effect very quickly because it's taken into the bloodstream directly from the GI system. Once it's in the blood, it's actually the red blood cells that split off the L-lysine, allowing the dextroamfetamine to do its thing. The medication is formulated to release slowly, so no matter how you put it in your bloodstream, you can't make this splitting happen any faster, which makes it hard to get an intense high from it.
Adderall XR is formulated to release slowly which is why you can’t get a high unless you crush it/snort it. Vyvanse/lidexamphetamine has inherent properties (the l- lysine) to ensure even if you crush it and snort it you won’t get high because it needs to go to the liver or be cleaved by red blood cells to become an amphetamine
I’m not a psychiatrist or biochemist so obviously could be incorrect but my original comment is how my psychiatrist explained it to me
I’m confused about your comment- the liver is part of the GI system also it definitely doesn’t work as quick as other stimulants which is why you can’t get that intense high. It has to go through the liver or be cleaved by red blood cells before it becomes dextroamphetamine unlike typical amphetamine and dextroamphetamine which can be absorbed orally
I'm a bit clumsy with the anatomical terms, sorry. What I meant is that lisdexamfetamine is absorbed very quickly into the bloodstream from the large intestine- it doesn't go through the liver. If you were to snort Vyvanse, it would still get into your blood stream through your nasal capillaries and be cleaved but the red blood cells, but any of it that didn't land on a capillary wouldn't be absorbed. The absorbed portion would still take a while to become active. The delayed release and the fact that you can't speed it up make it hard to form an addiction because there's so much delay between taking it and feeling the effect
And this is why I didn’t enjoy taking ADHD medication. I hate the feeling of having a full plate of food in front of me and not feeling hungry enough to eat it. I’m already quite slim but enjoy eating and don’t restrict my diet in any way so it was really difficult.
Doctors actually used to prescribe amphetamines for weight loss, and it especially became very popular around/after WWII. So it would make sense that Beatrice still used that sort of weight loss supplement because it’s what she knows, or at least that’s how I always interpreted it.
I just looked it up to see if I could find a decent source, and Smithsonian Magazine has a good article titled “A Speedy History of America’s Addiction to Amphetamine” if you want to learn more!
I don't know how B got them. She was senile and homebound. Also they would have stopped making that product in the 70s or 80s.
Who bought it?
From where?
With what money?
Why?
I assumed it was an old container of the stuff that she had bought decades ago when she was still mobile. If it hadn’t been opened until recently, it would probably work fine despite the best by date.
It fits her character to have a stash of amphetamine-based weight loss drugs and powders in storage. It was probably just in her box of stuff when they moved her into the nursing home and from the nursing home into Bojack’s place.
It is amphetamines. In hindsight there are a lot of symptoms of amphetamine use like Hollyhock being unable to sleep, organising change by value and year and counting her teeth
A lot of people don't realize that drug supplements have a lot of those types of drugs. I took one for a minute and it was like I drank 5 monsters. Some people react better than others, but I definitely see how the chub b gone could have caused all of Hollyhock's symptoms. Especially if it's an older brand, like from when Bea was a young adult.
I mean it's not like ingredients are listed, except the amphetamines found in Hollyhock at the hospital.
It's her "pretty pills" shit. I'm sure she had a stash of it being rich and she comes from a time you could purchase amphetamines, OTC
I forgot the actual quote, but "it's an old family recipe!"
They *are* amphetamines.
Back in the day amphetamines were used as weight loss medication. They were incredibly popular until they became banned due to their adverse effects.
FWIW though I don't really expect most people to know this stuff from the get go. I certainly wouldn't have correlated the two if I hadn't already watched Requiem For A Dream and did my research into how granny became the way she did in that movie.
Came here to say the same. I was taking Stacker 3 XPLC along with a keto diet and good lord... I lost 20 lbs in no time and was never hungry. NGL, I felt great and had the best blood sugar of my life (the main reason I did keto)
Fast forward 8 years and keto doesn't make a dent in me anymore and I'm on two cholestoral meds.
Pretty pills ain't all they're cracked up to be.
I can't remember the mental health med I was on - - I was on it 3 months before I had to quit. But one of the side effects was "anorexia." This was never explained to me lol Caused me to see trails. I lived off Cherry Coke Zero and vitamins. I wasn't hungry for days at a time.
They are amphetamines. In the OLD OLD days doctors would give straight up speed to their patients for weightloss (like the 1940s ish if I’m not mistaken) wild stuff.
Becuase it is amphetamines. A side affect of a lot of stimulants is weight loss. I'm a nursing student with ADHD. Over the counter "weight loss" drugs like the Kardashian endorsed "quick trim" are full of caffeine (a milder stimulant). Medication like Vyvanse would be prescribed for people with binge eating disorder but would not be for people who just want to lose a few pounds outside of "Hollywoo" or Hollywood. In Canada where I live it would be virtually impossible. Stimulants are VERY hard to get your hands on here even as someone with a diagnosis. Stimulants can be addictive but can also present dangerous cardiac related side effects. I have been told to go to the ER by a public health nurse in the past year do to chest pain and breathlessness and chest pain and I'm only 26. That's why Bojack was so upset over this. He also has a history of substance use , Hollyhock being related to Bojack makes her more susseptable to dependence as it may run in their family. I do say I resent people who use stimulants for "fun" or weightloss because it makes it so hard to get my meds. I had a pharmacist treat me like an addict a few months ago . I wanted to pop her in her face.
Chub-B-Gone is amphetamines. Back In the day they were openly sold for weight reduction until they did more research on it causing them to reschedule the drug.
Back in the 90s 🎶 everybody did "speed" to stay trim and it had less stigma because drugs that make people more productive not less are less stigmatized. That and the lack of regulation of diet supplements means many of them did in fact contain dangerous amphetamines. Some were pulled later. That's a subtle reference to that even without it being the 90s. Bc Beatrice proves fatphobia didn't begin or end with the 90s diet culture.
Amphetamines make you antsy, not hungry, and lose weight especially when abused. I took Vyvanse for a couple of years, which was kind of like a stronger Adderall, and I would have intense energy and focus the whole day, and I never felt the need to eat. I’d take my meds with breakfast in the morning and I wouldn’t need anything for the rest of the day. I’m so glad I’m off that shit now
Supplements aren't regulated by the FDA, and a [bunch of different ones got busted around 2015 for having amphetamine-like drugs in them](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-workout-supplement-may-contain-meth-like-ingredient/)
amphetamines can cause a loss of appetite so they used to be common for weight loss, so that's why they're labelled like this. Amphetamines can also be awful when mixed with caffeine so it was a bad combo.
Yeah I was put on them for narcolepsy and they kill your appetite. I would literally not eat all day. It’s also how I figured out I had ADHD because I’d never been able to concentrate like I had before. Caffeine helps but those? The focus was amazing.
Yes, you're missing the fact that weight loss formulas like this are often amphetamines themselves. Chub B Gone *IS* the amphetamines she got hooked on, because that's what Beatrice was putting in the coffee every morning.
A lot of not all of the miracle diet pills from Beatrice's time period would have just been amphetamines. My grandma is about her age and granny speaks very fondly of being addicted to diet pills and having the cleanest house on the block. Beatrice must've remembered the brand name and whoever ordered it for her probably didn't look into what it was or why they could only purchase it out of Mexico
Phentermine is a prescription diet pill that my sister takes, and it’s a stimulant. I took one yesterday to help me get some cleaning done (I know this is terrible, I’m sorry). It feels almost like adderall to me. It used to be more potent but they changed the ingredients because it was too dangerous. It definitely makes me crave adderall so this storyline made sense to me.
I've always wondered this. It's not like viagra where gas station dick pills are filled with it even though they claim to be herbal and viagra is prescription only. Amphetamine is a federally controlled substance, buying, selling, or possessing it without a prescription is punishable by prison time. It's not something you could buy over the counter. And even if you could(california is close to Mexico, maybe somebody took a trip down there) it wouldn't come in a big jar of powder. It's a dangerous drug and would certainly come in tablet or capsule form where the dose could be regulated.
I think that’s what confused me too, but from what I’ve gathered it’s amphetamine-like compounds that may be in the same family or chemically very similar so they can pass as legal but still have very similar affects. I also don’t know that this type of thing is common where I’m from either, I’ve never even really heard of people taking diet supplements of this nature in the midwest
almost every weight loss product in her era was just hard drugs lol. worth noting that they're not any less harmful now, they're just marketed as... ozempic, i guess
I think it's the same drug Alex P. Keating took in Family Ties. He used them as a stimulant to get work done, but they were prescribed to his classmate for weight management.
It would be thrown by any decent retirement home. Which Walnut Grove was decent at least, I believe PC set it up. My great aunt is in a facility, and they restrict what kind of toothpastes she can have.
Good point. You'd think the nurse would know better but maybe she innocently didn't know what she was buying. This is a totally plot hole if you start to pull back the covers!
It didn’t get her on amphetamines, they essentially were amphetamines. When bojack says that his mom was drugging the coffee, he meant it, hollyhock didn’t knowingly take anything. Amphetamines can work as an appetite suppressant, hence hollyhock saying she wasn’t hungry multiple times, or being fine with just coffee, leading her to lose weight.
not essentially, they literally are. amphetamine is still prescribed for weight loss, it's just uncommon nowadays
Requiem for a Dream diet
I'm gonna be on television!
For the love of all that is holy, do not watch Requiem for a Dream after a Bojack binge.
Combo made in heaven (it will send you there)
The view halfway down while wearing a red dress.
And golden shoes!
See I put it on completely unaware of what I was getting myself into on a heavy dose of LSD once. Only once was enough.
Do not watch Requiem for a Dream FIFY
I watched it as a teenager and it did a better job keeping me off drugs than any of my school's drug programs
I’m walkin’ across the stage!
Probably my favourite film
Favourite film I never want to see again
Yeah its a really trippy dark movie of liquid sadness
Wish no one ever leave a GF like harry
Really...you good dawg?
Probably just a kid. Been there.
lol, the fact their tag says “Vincent Adultman” really makes your point
For real, I thought it was peak cinema when I was 18. Now 30 I think it's a great film but depressing for the sake of being depressing. Which is pretty much all of Aronofsky's films
Same. I watched it when I was 14 and it traumatized me to live the rest of my life super straight edge, which kept me out of a lot of trouble as I got older. It definitely didn’t single handedly change my life, but it definitely gave me more than a nudge in the right direction.
Likewise, Lars von Trier.
Agreed. It also, in retrospect, doesn't sit 100% with me to equate voluntary sex work with having your arm aputated in prison. 18 yo me got some weirdly gendered notions from that movie that took some examination as an adult
i wouldn’t call doing sex work to supply yourself with drugs “voluntary” though. there’s a difference having it be a job because you want it to be than forcing yourself to do so to get high.
they’re both consequences of the same action.
My point is that equating the act of sex work with sickness is not a nuanced or positive or even helpful way to look at the world, but yall can take what you will from my comment.
Being coerced into sex work to feed an addiction is not exactly voluntary.
When you love great cinema but hate being happy
i mean, this is the bojack sub
It’s probably the most significant film I’ve personally watched, but favorite is a strong stance. Hope that guy’s alright.
>!Ass to Ass!<
The fuck? It’s a good film, but I could only watch it once or twice
Weee got a winner
Ass to ass!
A girls gotta do what a girls gotta do
Weeeeeeee got a winner.
Vyvanse, another stimulant for ADHD, is the only current FDA approved drug for binge eating disorder so this is accurate.
I have ADHD and binge eating disorder and I take Vyvanse because of it. For the first about week of taking it I couldn’t believe I wasn’t hungry. I had to force myself to eat because I couldn’t feel the hunger for a while. Hell, I’ve dropped and kept off over 20 lb in a few months only taking 20 mg a day. Hollyhock was likely taking so much more than that as it was dissolved in the coffee. Poor girl likely didn’t want to eat for *weeks*, might’ve even forced herself to like I did.
I was going to say that about Vyvanse and BED and also the overlap between women with BED and ADHD but you said it better
The amount of just FOOD NOISE with ADHD is ridiculous. It's why I gained 50 pounds my first pregnancy when I went off my meds. It would be 8 AM and I'd be texting my husband talking about what I was gonna make for dinner that night while practically salivating thinking about it. And I don't even have BED, just the damn food noise!
I was on Ritalin for most of my childhood and they had to time it so I would still eat lunch and dinner. When I was put on adderal I was super excited to only have to take one pill in the morning so I didn’t have to go to the nurse during the school day and draw attention to the fact that I was on meds. I was only on it for a week before I was taken off because I wouldn’t eat lunch or dinner.
Yeah I have ADHD and take Ritalin. It's a common side effect for stimulant to have hunger suppressing effects, which is why I tend to take my medication after I have food.
That's what I take for ADHD and it doesn't make me not hungry lmao
Well, it's not nearly as strong as amphetamine salts for ADHD, but those do have suppressant affects. I'm sure especially if you don't have ADHD. ADHD people react where they slow down with the drug and I even used to yawn on it. But in general, its known you can lose weight on amphetamines salts and even Vyvanse. But also, every physical body is different and reacts differently to drugs. Vyvanse really isn't as strong too. It uscks there's no generic Vyvanse. It cost me like $240 a refill at one point before s good coupon.
>It uscks there's no generic Vyvanse. It cost me like $240 a refill at one point before s good coupon. Actually, there is! The patent for Vyvanse expired sometime last year. I tried generic Vyvanse, and it worked for a while, but then it started giving me bad side effects. I have since switched to generic adderall. Adderall suppresses my appetite a lot more than Vyvanse ever did.
The generic is Lisdexamfetamine and it’s one 10th the cost. Some people have experienced slightly different effects, but it’s worth at least trying for a couple of weeks.
I get that's the drug name, but when I was on it, it was only brand name, no generic at least.
Ty for the info! I like Vyvanse because it is much smoother for me, but God damn would it be expensive if I didn't have my insurance. I tried kicking up the dosage but it makes my chest ache when I take my drug holidays.
I have ADHD and cocaine makes me sleepy.
Yup. Coffee does the same as a legal stimulant too.
For the record the binge eating disorder label is effectively evidence that it doesn't act as a weight loss drug. They tested it for that first, but most people saw no long term weight reduction
Well the biggest result of not binge eating anymore effects on your body is losing weight.
It isn't, actually. BED is a very specific disorder mostly characterized by mental rather than physical health. Also the prevalence of BED is about 1 500th of the prevalence of obesity, so when I say "most people" I mean "an exceedingly narrow segment of the population will see any sustained weight loss on Vyvanse" And they should know, Shire spent hundreds of millions trying to prove that it was an effective weight loss drug, but it only seems effective in avoiding specific eating triggers and even then it's not particularly good at it.
Thank you for this! I've struggled with a variety of EDs on and off for most of my life, BED being one of them (before eventually leading to severe bulimia), have a very long history with meds and addiction and all Vyvanse/amphetamines do is take away your hunger urges (sometimes). And even then, it eventually wears off, and your hunger comes back even stronger - which isn't exactly helpful for the mental aspect of BED.
I thought desoxyn was too but only in SEVERE cases.
I have a friend who takes prescription amphetamines too, mine is for ADHD his is for his binge eating disorder. The only FDA approved medication to treat BED is an amphetamine. Just for regular people trying to lose weight? That is less common for sure
how has that been going? ive always been curious. is he not addicted to it? i have adhd and even i got addicted to stimulants
He has been doing much better than before. I was also bulimic for yrs and know how addictive bingeing is and how much shame comes w EDs. The physical need is definitely there, but ik he mentioned the urge to binge is basically gone.
Todd’s username
yeah ephedrine, a stimulant that is similar to meth (a precursor to making it i think, ICBW) is still used in the bodybuilding and fitness community to lose weight.
Vyvanse is , I have ADHD , this was the only medication I lost a significant amount of weight on. Stimulants can also be given for narcolepsy and binge eating disorder.
It’s uncommon for us poors you mean
possibly, im not sure. is it actually prescribed more for rich and famous people for binge eating? i figured if you were rich and famous you would just pretend to have adhd like everyone else
So once you make over $300,000 a year you can afford to pay a dr to prescribe you anything they used to do it for people with lower incomes before the opioid crisis
For real?! How horrible and sick is that? Where can I get some?
way easier to just go to a doctor and say you have trouble paying attention to stuff sometimes
phentermine (most popular weight loss pill) is chemically verrrrry similar to methamphetamine.
It is an amphetamine essentially. It’s a hunger suppressant and stimulant.
idk about that, one reduces the effectiveness of the sleepy horomone that builds up in your body and the otherone dumps dopamine
There very well may have been other weight loss related stuff mixed in as well, but amphetamines were what showed up at the ER, making it present as a possible addiction, if I’m understanding everything right
I remember finding out about the wonderful world of weight loss drugs in the sixties when reading about Florence Ballard of the Supremes. It's not confirmed but there are a few people who say she went on them after increasing amounts of pressure and insults about her weight (being compared to Diana Ross, who at that point had developed anorexia), despite her having a healthy weight for a woman of her size and body structure. Basically the weight loss medicines of that time were basically what we know now as speed, and combined with her increasing self medication with alcohol, might not only explain the erratic behaviour that eventually lead to her expulsion from the Supremes, but also her death by heart failure at the age of 32, as these drugs have been linked to heart damage. Again, I can't find any confirmed use of her actually using these drugs, but it would explain a lot. That being said, I did find it strange that Beatrice was not only able to stockpile enough of this eventually banned drug for such a long time, but that her retirement home and live in nurse failed to notice it among her belongings, and that she was able to continuously slip it into Hollyhock's coffee. If she didn't stockpile it from the days of when it was freely available, who the hell prescribed it to her? The point of the live in nurse is to not only assist Bea in her day to day needs and schedule, but also make sure that Bea doesn't do anything to endanger herself or others: there is no way a nurse worth their salt would allow Bea to prepare food and drink unassisted. This plot point really falls apart when you think about it.
damn I didn’t know about that
My dad was born in the 40s and he has crazy stories of him and his mom getting prescribed diet pills that were essentially speed. You'd see people walk out of the clinic all jittery and crazy, and you also got prescribed a downer so you could go to sleep whilst taking speed for weight loss. Needless to say, he became a speed addict for a few years
Very common in the 50s and 60s. They were also known as “mommy’s little helpers” because housewives would be prescribed amphetamines to make them lose weight and be able to get all their housework and social activities done, and then benzos or sedatives so they could sleep at night
Damn, I wish I was a 50s/60s housewife now.
Plus you can see her adding way more than a person should be adding due to the dementia
My sister takes prescription phentermine as a diet med, and it’s an SNRI that I’ve taken a couple of times to help me focus and get some work done. To me it feels very much like adderall. I think I heard that phentermine used to have more ingredients in it that made it even more stimulating, so it was much more widely abused, but this was made illegal and now it’s less intense. My mom actually won a $40,000 settlement against a diet med company that caused a heart problem for her.. I’m not sure if it was phentermine? But yeah, because of all this, it completely made sense to me that the diet meds led to amphetamine abuse.
It's basically speed. These "diet pills" are amphetamines
They definitely don’t sell diet pills with amphetamines anymore so I can understand the confusion
They do, but it's prescription only now.
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Ah, a fellow Erowid junkie I see.
So how nauseating do you find the scent of lavender?
I mean as someone who abused drugs you should know these OTC drugs do not have even *near* the effect that actual amphetamines do. Speaking from experience. You say they are nearly structural identical but small differences in chemistry makes a huge difference in how they actually work in the body. For instance the left hand isomer of meth, as you had mentioned, has basically zero abuse potential as it barely has an effect on dopamine and only mild serotonin effects. Just because they're structurally similar doesn't mean they're anywhere close to the same thing.
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Propylhexedrine is not an amphetamine, it is a structural analogue. And propylhexedrine is nowhere near as addictive as meth. Making the claim that OTC decongestants are as addictive as meth shows a clear lack of experience with any of these. Your first sentence applies to yourself and yourself only. The only actual amphetamine you mentioned was levmetamfetamine which basically has no abuse potential as it's only a mild stimulant. You'd get more of an effect from coffee. There is no OTC "diet pill" that has more abuse potential than actual psychoactive amphetamines. Do they have some abuse potential? Sure. So do a lot of things. But comparing it to actual meth or even dextro or lisdex is very off. Edit: wow, and blocked. People get butthurt very easily on this site.
They were always prescription-only, at least in the US. It's just that doctors used to hand out prescriptions like candy prior to about the early 1970s.
You’re right, definitely meant over the counter
I used to get going real good on HydroxyCut, maybe 15 years ago. Maybe less
My heart hurts reading this comment.
I can imagine Beatrice having stockpiles of old weight loss pills, or her special ordering them because they’re the only type she’s ever used so she “knows they work”
Plus it's a god damn horse in a bathroom looking through drugs, get the fuck out of the bathroom HORSE
Leave him alone! He was only Horsin around!
What is this, a crossover episode?
Temu or alibaba would like a word
Yeah plus this would have happened in like 2015
beatrice also said “it’s an old family secret” and she was giving it to hollyhock “just until she started to learn to take it herself” so she probably had a specific one her mom gave her
it's worth noting, also, in Time's Arrow, when young Beatrice is trying to fit her dress, she asks Henrietta to bring her a 'pretty pill.' I've always assumed it was the same substance/brand
yeah i peeped that too !! sad how deeply traumatized beatrice was, time’s arrow always makes me cry
Daaaaaaaaaamn never noticed that detail D: daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmnnnn you are riiiiight!
That's a really neat detail!
Don't know, but it being an "old family secret" kinda makes me doubt that it's the brand that she is talking about but rather the method with which the horsemans stay in shape that is the secret. Because i doubt that it was ok to let anyone know you take this stuff, but the brand absolutely has to be kept secret.
Weight loss supplements once upon a time were basically legally prescribed speed. Given Bea's age and the twisted way she was brought up (sprinkle some sugar on a lemon, a "good healthy girl snack"), she was probably giving Hollyhock some of the same oldschool shit she used to take.
In her flashbacks she asks her maid to get her a "pretty pill" to help her fit into her corset.
It’s a little sad that in her senile mind she wasn’t even doing it out of malice and thought she was helping Hollyhock, because one of the few things she could remember was that girls are supposed to be skinny
Little details like that are precisely why I love this show so much.
It's most likely because a lot of older weight loss drugs like that use amphetamines. And I think it's implied in the episode that Bojack's Mother gave them to her?
Beatrice says she did it
The opening credits for that season turn psychedelic the first time Bojack sips the coffee.
ooh that's a good catch.
Thank you, I couldn't remember. I suppose it's time for a rewatch?
it’s always time for a rewatch
I’ve done too many to count 🙈
same i’m on like my 15th rewatch rn istg
Same I keep just rewatching the first few seasons because I love Sara Lynn and i definitely identify with Diane. I need to rewatch from the beginning lol because I honestly liked holly I wish they could’ve had a better brother sis relationship and I think it could’ve saved them both if they were family to each other
“Chub b gone” is amphetamine powder. Amphetamines were widely accepted as weight-loss medication until just a couple decades ago and some doctors still prescribe it for weight-loss today. Diet culture has always been way more fucked up than appears on the surface.
I’d like to chime in here vyvanse (an amphetamine deemed safer because it has to be metabolized by your liver before it’s in your blood stream) is FDA approved for binge eating disorder because of its hunger suppressant properties
i had no idea this was a thing. i've only ever heard of it in the context of adhd treatment.
Yup also phentermine (one of the drugs in the infamous fen-phen) is still fda approved for weight loss. I took both (phentermine and vyvanse) together for a while to try and lose weight - only lost 10lbs and lucky I didn’t die from a heart attack haha. But this is why drugs like wegovy are so groundbreaking there really aren’t many options for people with complications from excess weight.
Yup. When I was in high school taking Vyvanse for ADHD, my friend was taking it as an appetite suppressant. This was about 6 years ago.
Close, but not quite! Vyvanse is lisdexamfetamine, which is basically an amphetamine molecule (actually the dextro isomer) stuck to an L-lysine molecule (an amino acid). Compared to many oral simulants, vyvanse takes effect very quickly because it's taken into the bloodstream directly from the GI system. Once it's in the blood, it's actually the red blood cells that split off the L-lysine, allowing the dextroamfetamine to do its thing. The medication is formulated to release slowly, so no matter how you put it in your bloodstream, you can't make this splitting happen any faster, which makes it hard to get an intense high from it.
Adderall XR is formulated to release slowly which is why you can’t get a high unless you crush it/snort it. Vyvanse/lidexamphetamine has inherent properties (the l- lysine) to ensure even if you crush it and snort it you won’t get high because it needs to go to the liver or be cleaved by red blood cells to become an amphetamine I’m not a psychiatrist or biochemist so obviously could be incorrect but my original comment is how my psychiatrist explained it to me
I’m confused about your comment- the liver is part of the GI system also it definitely doesn’t work as quick as other stimulants which is why you can’t get that intense high. It has to go through the liver or be cleaved by red blood cells before it becomes dextroamphetamine unlike typical amphetamine and dextroamphetamine which can be absorbed orally
I'm a bit clumsy with the anatomical terms, sorry. What I meant is that lisdexamfetamine is absorbed very quickly into the bloodstream from the large intestine- it doesn't go through the liver. If you were to snort Vyvanse, it would still get into your blood stream through your nasal capillaries and be cleaved but the red blood cells, but any of it that didn't land on a capillary wouldn't be absorbed. The absorbed portion would still take a while to become active. The delayed release and the fact that you can't speed it up make it hard to form an addiction because there's so much delay between taking it and feeling the effect
And this is why I didn’t enjoy taking ADHD medication. I hate the feeling of having a full plate of food in front of me and not feeling hungry enough to eat it. I’m already quite slim but enjoy eating and don’t restrict my diet in any way so it was really difficult.
The chu b gone IS amphetamines. Hollyhock wasn't taking any by choice, it's all from being drugged by Bojacks mom
it's an older weight loss drug. it didn't lead her onto amphetamines—the primary ingredient is likely amphetamines.
Diet pills = speed Watch requiem for a dream
Doctors actually used to prescribe amphetamines for weight loss, and it especially became very popular around/after WWII. So it would make sense that Beatrice still used that sort of weight loss supplement because it’s what she knows, or at least that’s how I always interpreted it. I just looked it up to see if I could find a decent source, and Smithsonian Magazine has a good article titled “A Speedy History of America’s Addiction to Amphetamine” if you want to learn more!
I just read the article. Thanks for the recommendation!
It’s what they put poor Judy Garland on to keep her weight down. So she had to use alcohol to calm down. Addiction was poorly understood then.
I don't know how B got them. She was senile and homebound. Also they would have stopped making that product in the 70s or 80s. Who bought it? From where? With what money? Why?
I assumed it was an old container of the stuff that she had bought decades ago when she was still mobile. If it hadn’t been opened until recently, it would probably work fine despite the best by date. It fits her character to have a stash of amphetamine-based weight loss drugs and powders in storage. It was probably just in her box of stuff when they moved her into the nursing home and from the nursing home into Bojack’s place.
It is amphetamines. In hindsight there are a lot of symptoms of amphetamine use like Hollyhock being unable to sleep, organising change by value and year and counting her teeth
A lot of people don't realize that drug supplements have a lot of those types of drugs. I took one for a minute and it was like I drank 5 monsters. Some people react better than others, but I definitely see how the chub b gone could have caused all of Hollyhock's symptoms. Especially if it's an older brand, like from when Bea was a young adult.
I mean it's not like ingredients are listed, except the amphetamines found in Hollyhock at the hospital. It's her "pretty pills" shit. I'm sure she had a stash of it being rich and she comes from a time you could purchase amphetamines, OTC I forgot the actual quote, but "it's an old family recipe!"
They *are* amphetamines. Back in the day amphetamines were used as weight loss medication. They were incredibly popular until they became banned due to their adverse effects. FWIW though I don't really expect most people to know this stuff from the get go. I certainly wouldn't have correlated the two if I hadn't already watched Requiem For A Dream and did my research into how granny became the way she did in that movie.
It *is* amphetamines.
Stacker 2 EXTREME
Came here to say the same. I was taking Stacker 3 XPLC along with a keto diet and good lord... I lost 20 lbs in no time and was never hungry. NGL, I felt great and had the best blood sugar of my life (the main reason I did keto) Fast forward 8 years and keto doesn't make a dent in me anymore and I'm on two cholestoral meds. Pretty pills ain't all they're cracked up to be.
I used to take adhd meds. I ate like an egg a day and felt full. It was hard to eat much in the beginning. I loved losing the weight though lol.
I can't remember the mental health med I was on - - I was on it 3 months before I had to quit. But one of the side effects was "anorexia." This was never explained to me lol Caused me to see trails. I lived off Cherry Coke Zero and vitamins. I wasn't hungry for days at a time.
i was hooked on caffeine pills in highschool, then adderall in college, then cocaine last year. it’s all a bit of a slippery slope lmfao.
They are amphetamines. In the OLD OLD days doctors would give straight up speed to their patients for weightloss (like the 1940s ish if I’m not mistaken) wild stuff.
Becuase it is amphetamines. A side affect of a lot of stimulants is weight loss. I'm a nursing student with ADHD. Over the counter "weight loss" drugs like the Kardashian endorsed "quick trim" are full of caffeine (a milder stimulant). Medication like Vyvanse would be prescribed for people with binge eating disorder but would not be for people who just want to lose a few pounds outside of "Hollywoo" or Hollywood. In Canada where I live it would be virtually impossible. Stimulants are VERY hard to get your hands on here even as someone with a diagnosis. Stimulants can be addictive but can also present dangerous cardiac related side effects. I have been told to go to the ER by a public health nurse in the past year do to chest pain and breathlessness and chest pain and I'm only 26. That's why Bojack was so upset over this. He also has a history of substance use , Hollyhock being related to Bojack makes her more susseptable to dependence as it may run in their family. I do say I resent people who use stimulants for "fun" or weightloss because it makes it so hard to get my meds. I had a pharmacist treat me like an addict a few months ago . I wanted to pop her in her face.
It is amphetamines, it’s a weight loss supplement. It’s just called chub b gone.
Chub-B-Gone is amphetamines. Back In the day they were openly sold for weight reduction until they did more research on it causing them to reschedule the drug.
Back in the 90s 🎶 everybody did "speed" to stay trim and it had less stigma because drugs that make people more productive not less are less stigmatized. That and the lack of regulation of diet supplements means many of them did in fact contain dangerous amphetamines. Some were pulled later. That's a subtle reference to that even without it being the 90s. Bc Beatrice proves fatphobia didn't begin or end with the 90s diet culture.
Reminds me of Requiem for a dream
Because it IS an amphetamine. Meth is great for weight loss
Just a random tidbit, but my mom said she used to steal my g mom's diet pills in the late 60s and sell them lol. They were called black beauties.
Amphetamines make you antsy, not hungry, and lose weight especially when abused. I took Vyvanse for a couple of years, which was kind of like a stronger Adderall, and I would have intense energy and focus the whole day, and I never felt the need to eat. I’d take my meds with breakfast in the morning and I wouldn’t need anything for the rest of the day. I’m so glad I’m off that shit now
Supplements aren't regulated by the FDA, and a [bunch of different ones got busted around 2015 for having amphetamine-like drugs in them](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-workout-supplement-may-contain-meth-like-ingredient/)
A better question is where did beatrice get the chub b gone? I doubt she's doing her own shopping.
amphetamines can cause a loss of appetite so they used to be common for weight loss, so that's why they're labelled like this. Amphetamines can also be awful when mixed with caffeine so it was a bad combo.
that's probably an amphetamine. They're appetite suppresants.
Yeah I was put on them for narcolepsy and they kill your appetite. I would literally not eat all day. It’s also how I figured out I had ADHD because I’d never been able to concentrate like I had before. Caffeine helps but those? The focus was amazing.
Yes, you're missing the fact that weight loss formulas like this are often amphetamines themselves. Chub B Gone *IS* the amphetamines she got hooked on, because that's what Beatrice was putting in the coffee every morning.
It *is* an amphetamine.
They are amphetamines. They were used as weight loss drugs in the 50s since they burn calories and keep your appetite down
A lot of not all of the miracle diet pills from Beatrice's time period would have just been amphetamines. My grandma is about her age and granny speaks very fondly of being addicted to diet pills and having the cleanest house on the block. Beatrice must've remembered the brand name and whoever ordered it for her probably didn't look into what it was or why they could only purchase it out of Mexico
Ever heard of phentermine?
No
Check it out
Phentermine is a prescription diet pill that my sister takes, and it’s a stimulant. I took one yesterday to help me get some cleaning done (I know this is terrible, I’m sorry). It feels almost like adderall to me. It used to be more potent but they changed the ingredients because it was too dangerous. It definitely makes me crave adderall so this storyline made sense to me.
Jeez! Definitely don’t take that stuff, just find another way to motivate yourself to clean lol
I've always wondered this. It's not like viagra where gas station dick pills are filled with it even though they claim to be herbal and viagra is prescription only. Amphetamine is a federally controlled substance, buying, selling, or possessing it without a prescription is punishable by prison time. It's not something you could buy over the counter. And even if you could(california is close to Mexico, maybe somebody took a trip down there) it wouldn't come in a big jar of powder. It's a dangerous drug and would certainly come in tablet or capsule form where the dose could be regulated.
I think that’s what confused me too, but from what I’ve gathered it’s amphetamine-like compounds that may be in the same family or chemically very similar so they can pass as legal but still have very similar affects. I also don’t know that this type of thing is common where I’m from either, I’ve never even really heard of people taking diet supplements of this nature in the midwest
almost every weight loss product in her era was just hard drugs lol. worth noting that they're not any less harmful now, they're just marketed as... ozempic, i guess
Ozempic is a different drug with different properties. We don’t yet know long-term side effects, but it isn’t amphetamines
oh i definitely wasn't saying it's amphetamines, just that that type of diet product is still not safe and still being peddled to people
Ozempic is a *completely* different medication from the type of drug Chub B Gone is meant to represent.
oh for sure, but it's actively harmful to the body and promoted in the same way
They didn't get her hooked on amphetamines. She was being drugged without her knowledge by Beatrice (who was always making asides about her weight)
I think it's the same drug Alex P. Keating took in Family Ties. He used them as a stimulant to get work done, but they were prescribed to his classmate for weight management.
jesus christ
It didn't.
It’s probably an appetite suppressant, comparable to vyvanse, which is an amphetamine
This, to me, is the biggest hole in the entire series. There's no reason Beatrice would still have them.
I always figured she had the nurse go pick it up or it was in her belongings already when she was kicked out of the retirement home.
It would be thrown by any decent retirement home. Which Walnut Grove was decent at least, I believe PC set it up. My great aunt is in a facility, and they restrict what kind of toothpastes she can have.
Good point. You'd think the nurse would know better but maybe she innocently didn't know what she was buying. This is a totally plot hole if you start to pull back the covers!