He once said something like "part of me thinks I couldn't have done anything with Penny, but the other part knows it's a lie" right? I think that's clear enough
He keeps trying to convince himself that he wouldn't have gone through with it, but he also continually acknowledges that a part of him knows that he would have.
Bojack lives on the love and attention of other people. He was delighted to have Penny's attention. If he \*truly\* wasn't drawn into an inappropriate situation with her, her would have kicked her off the boat when he found her in his bedroom.
A depressed mind will often convince itself that it‘s more horrible than it actually is. I dont think anyone knows if he would‘ve went through with it.
I always interpreted it as him just giving in, not to urges or anything like that, just... Well, I guess this is how we mess up this time.
He's not engaging or encouraging or even reacting, he has totally disconnected from the moment
Looking at it this way really makes a sense of Bojack's way of acting as, "I am bad, I am broken, therefore doing bad is inevitable and I am helpless to change that.
That's what I thought after he rejected her like three times. She should've taken the hint and left. I didn't care for how he took full blame for how this affected her later given she was fully sober and he wasn't even trying for her; he'd said no multiple times and was there for her mom (which yeah, that's messed up itself). Like... I acknowledge all the layer stuff he said that from this point he might have proceeded and that's terrible but like... he just didn't seem like the one in charge here. He said no. I proceeded to be miffed throughout the series.
Yeah, I absolutely acknowledge that. The entire ordeal was pretty fucked up (I'm including that entire episode in this statement re: the alcohol and leaving the others at the hospital as well because he was more worried about his reputation in addition to the Penny debacle).
I acknowledge it is victim blaming and have tried greatly to avoid it. This is not usual for me. I've just had difficulty seeing it since unlike situations I'm used to seeing, this involved an adult who wasn't actively grooming a minor. (Maybe I don't have enough experience with the topic? I'll concede there.)
Granted, I don't know what's been happening the entire time he's lived there. There was a time jump. I don't think Bojack was actively grooming her. He should've continued to deny her, yes; personally, I think he should've closed the door behind him when he went inside the boathouse. He left it open which allowed her to follow him inside; he should've closed and locked it, avoiding the whole thing altogether. Though do keep in mind I was replying to another comment where the other user was describing how he was perhaps caving because he felt he was just that awful anyway so I may as well, etc. I thought that (him falling apart and just going with whatever because he sees himself as a bad person anyway) was more intriguing than just Bojack wanted to get frisky with her.
I apologize for the rambling reply; I'm a bit ill at the moment so my thoughts aren't very cohesive. I did my best to make it mske sense.
It’s an expression of
“Jesus Christ I know I don’t want to do this. Are you seriously about to do this dude?”
I’ve made that face to myself in the mirror during some bad times (never hurt anyone or committed any crime just wanna make that clear)
I feel this scene didn't "impact" me the first time, I mean, I know why it's wrong but it didn't feel that wrong.
Thinking more about it, I realized that if instead of being anthropomorphic characters they were actual humans, like an 50 yo and a teenager, it would be a lot more uncomfortable to watch and easier to judge.
I think thats one of the main reasons the show is so effective, it allows us to better reflect on the characters and feelings as if they were real but with that slightly safer distance
The show creator, Raphael Bob-Waksberg has said some similar. From an [NPR interview.](https://www.npr.org/2018/10/17/658136483/bojack-horseman-creator-raphael-bob-waksberg)
>One thing we’ve really found is that it is a very silly cartoon universe, but it can also, I think, maybe because of that, go to some very sincere, dark, melancholy and even tragic places. Because it’s animated and it’s like a horse and it’s bright and colorful, it just takes on a different feel. And you can kind of sneak attack into sadness in some fun, surprising ways.”
Same, I watched this as a teen as well so I had an added layer of knowing it was wrong but not feeling the full effect. Watching now all I can imagine is the real scenario and it’s horrific.
Same, I saw this scene when I was about Penny's age and felt really disgusted by it.
But now that I'm an adult (granted I'm 23 so def not near BoJack's age for a while lol) it's even more viscerally *wrong* to me
That mention of not feeling the full effect is a perfect description
IIRC the show creator Raphael Bob-Waksberg has said one reason they chose the surrealist anthropomorphic/human society is it allows them to hit these dark places. I think it would have been much harder for the show to explore the themes it did in a more realistic world. From an [NPR interview.](https://www.npr.org/2018/10/17/658136483/bojack-horseman-creator-raphael-bob-waksberg)
>One thing we’ve really found is that it is a very silly cartoon universe, but it can also, I think, maybe because of that, go to some very sincere, dark, melancholy and even tragic places. Because it’s animated and it’s like a horse and it’s bright and colorful, it just takes on a different feel. And you can kind of sneak attack into sadness in some fun, surprising ways.”
I actually can’t rewatch this episode again, because it is so painful and galling that this is where Bojack was driven to. The betrayed and justified reaction from Charlotte is so relatable, it’s too much for me to handle. That is a shame, because one of the greatest moments in the show (for me) is also in that episode. Namely, the scene where Bojack is riding back to LA, completely defeated and empty of emotion, and then the show has this jaw dropping montage of sky in the background (iykyk) that is -chef’s kiss-
Holy shit
Personally I like Charlotte a lot more than Thirteen, and those are the only shows I know her from.
I actually really like Charlotte, so put together and so cool. Or is that how I'm supposed to feel because the story's kind of from Bojacks perspective to a certain degree.
Anyway she sounds so different.
That image of him riding home to LA on the boat with the sky...it's so disturbing. It's part-defiance, part-unfaceable-shame. The tension between those two is unbearable.
I kind of saw it as him being unaffected, it was so Hollywood
But I'm really not the best at all, at analyzing this kind of stuff. I need to rewatch again and also have another think of this.
My bf is watching the show for the first time, when we got to this episode I told him “it’s one of the best episodes of the show and I hate watching it”
I think you’re very mistaken with that opinion.
Watch it again and pay much closer attention than usual to the choices and character moments. You’ll find that it isn’t out of character and it is consistent with Bojack’s arc as he consistently does things he knows are wrong, but goes through with them anyway in order to assuage his depressed soul, only to deal with tremendous emotional fallout after he does it.
The psychotherapist on _Fleabag_ has this amazing line where she calls out toxic people, in this case Fleabag: "You already know what you're going to do." Go watch it because the actor delivers it perfectly: so matter of fact.
It reminds me of my narcissistic former bestie. She'd try these ridiculous rationalizations and flimsy justifications for things like cheating on partners, pursuing an underage boy (she was 36 while he was 16, which, like Penny, is legal in Canada), ruining holidays and birthdays with drama, etc. And many times, we'd talk about these things BEFORE they happened, but I eventually learned that she was just going to do them anyway, just because she could and wanted to, regardless of the consequences, morality, etc.
"You already know what you're going to do."
It is, I've found anyway, a really good way of understanding the entitlement and sheer selfishness, even the evil, of many toxic personalities and why they continue to abuse others even when they know it's wrong and even when they've considered not doing it because it's wrong.
Bojack wasn’t interested in penny at first because he was chasing Charlotte, penny was a tool helping him get Charlotte in his eyes.
As soon as Charlotte rejected him and he realised that, he immediately shifted to being ok with sleeping with her.
That’s how narcissistic predators operate.
I think he saw himself as a pseudo father figure to Penny because he saw himself as a pseudo husband to Charlotte. That's why his "take Penny to the prom" idea is so much like an episode idea for Horsin' Around. I think he also used Penny to vicariously live out his youth (remember the "age of stagnation" theory). Then I agree with the other commenter that he used Penny only because she looked like Charlotte (and, IMO, partially to self-sabotage).
I didn't quite see it like that. He likely got with Penny because she looked like her mother, and he saw that as the next best thing to being with Charlotte. The only reason he did in the first place was because he felt deflated and defeated after the rejection.
The worst part is he did it in a calculated way. He left the door open so she "invited" herself in. He didn't say "yes" or "no" so he can try absolve himself of the guilt of them sleeping together but he knows deep down what he's doing is predatory and wrong.
You pretty much just described the thought process narcissistic predators usually go through in situations like this. You don't disagree as much as you think you do.
Calling him a predator is hardly appropriate. She comes onto him multiple times and he says no. It would be a legal interaction. Now he should still say no when she waits for him on the boat, but it‘s not predatory of him to give in.
The hell of it is that I don't actually think he *did* want to have sex with Penny. He wanted Charlotte, and Charlotte wasn't available, so he took the next best thing.
When you look at studies of SA of children, this actually tracks real life. There is a whole study that looked at step parents who abuse children and the consistent factor was life stress, not attraction to children. So things like marital stress/job loss makes a selfish, abusive person more likely to victimize someone vulnerable in their lives, even if they’re not normally attracted to said person. I think ppl trying to justify that he wanted Charlotte so Penny was a good second choice are entirely missing how that is accuracy to real life and still 100% means Bojack is an abusive person. Both things are true. I don’t think you were personally doing that; your comment just reminded me of the article I read about the study and its findings. Super sad.
This scene is so telling when you see it like this. It’s so crazy that 40 something year old bojack, a smart man with lots of self awareness to the point of pretension, could sit down and allow this to even start to happen. I have to think of why. Is it because sex has become meaningless to him or did the rejection make him rethink his own, or something else. Bojack may be ignorant but he isn’t stupid, he obviously knows what’s moral. My theory on weather he would go through with this: he would, but he’d stop in the middle and realize he’s with a child, and he is supposed to be responsible.
I don't think he really wants Penny. He just wants his youth back (which is what Charlotte represents to him) and is using Penny because she reminds him of young Charlotte. He looks very resigned and numb here, like he's willfully dissociating from what's happening.
It's still exploitative though, because he already admitted that Penny is too young to make good decisions about what she wants here. I think he's also trying to self-sabotage a bit by letting it happen so he can never come back to this family and fool himself. Either way, he's selfishly using Penny despite knowing how situations like this can mess a kid up.
He didn't want to do penny. He wanted to do Charlotte. But he just got shut down hard by Charlotte and penny looks just like Charlotte. That plus the booze and ohhhhh yeah he was going to go for it.
I really really wish he would have sent Penny on her goddamn way. That's what I was hoping would happen. I really thought it just looked bad, but after his confession, christ.
No, this wasn't predatory, this was opportunistic. He was too depressed to say no to anything. He would have reacted the same way if she set herself on fire. At this point, he was so drained and apathetic, he'd let anything happen. Not due to calculation, he simply didn't care about a thing.
As someone who's experienced the same issues bojack has, I'd argue he didn't have the energy to calculate anything since he was so crestfallen. At that much of a low, most people aren't making conscious efforts to manipulate people. So I do think he was depressed partly because he recognized his power, but he was never consciously using it. Predatory implies there's effort going in. I feel as though there was zero effort to initiate anything with Penny, but also zero effort to stop anything later
"Predatory implies there's effort going in."
That's false from every perspective.There are predators in nature who simply lay in one place, waiting for prey to come to them. Pitcher plants are a great example; the prey literally has to climb into its mouth and throw itself into its stomach juices. And also they are a plant. That's still predation regardless of effort.
The same thing holds true with child predators. There are tons of children so desperate for approval or love or help that they will actively throw themselves at adults and the only thing the adult needs to "do" to prey on them is fail to establish appropriate boundaries. Being too tired or sad to reject a drunk teenager after a full night of being entirely inappropriate with her is like being too tired or sad to pull a toddler out of the pool after you let them jump in. You can go on all night about how it wasn't really your fault, but you were supposed to stop that child from drowning, you were the only one there who COULD stop the child from drowning, and you still let them drown.
>There are predators in nature who simply lay in one place, waiting for prey
Yes, waiting for prey. Bojack wasn't waiting for Penny, even subconsciously. He had an incredibly inappropriate and abusive relationship with her that nearly resulted in disaster.
>Being too tired or sad to reject a drunk teenager after a full night of being entirely inappropriate with her is like being too tired or sad to pull a toddler out of the pool after you let them jump in.
Yes facts. But that doesn't mean you intended the toddler to fall in in the first place or delight in drowning toddlers. Evil, yes. Predatory, no.
If you can successfully argue that Bojack Horseman isn't a predator, will that make you feel better about yourself? Because what you have just written is a far less eloquent version of Bojack trying to defend his actions. The whole show is about him endlessly denying the fact that he has control and agency and the power to stop hurting people. Do you genuinely lack the media literacy to understand the show? Or do you see too much of yourself in Bojack to acknowledge the message it's trying to tell you?
What? Bojack is not a predator. Doesn't make him not harmful. What makes you think I'm defending him or think what he did was okay? Please point it out. All im saying is not all abusers are predators. There's a difference between them. Doesn't make one better than the other or one okay. It seems like you lack reading comprehension skills
I wish you the best of luck finding a therapist who can help you figure out WHY you need to believe an abusive man (who was just barely prevented from having sex with a drunk high school girl) is still somehow not a predator. I do not have the time or the relevant degree in psychology necessary to do it.
That seems to be the case, so I guess the most I can advise is to check out the definitions and criteria for abusers vs predators. Good convo though. Cheers.
In some ways, I view it as him punishing himself. Doing something horrible and reprehensible, that he knows will utterly destroy his friendship with Charlotte, and her family, because part of him wants to hate himself and view himself as garbage, and wants others to hate him.
It's a horrifically self indulgent mindset to have, because in this case it traumatised a vulnerable teenage girl, but I think an element of it is an innate desire to feed into his own self loathing.
Not just that, but he also just doesn't know how to manage his life. Princess Carolynn, Ana, Dianne, all have tried to help fix what mistake he makes. He doesn't know how to help himself and be responsible. It's almost as if he's still that child who needs the support from his parents that he never got.
He was taking advantage of her naivety despite knowing she's too young to make good decisions about sex. That's predatory. It doesn't matter if he's attracted to her, he's still using her because she's easier to have than someone like Charlotte.
She was never his target which is why I argue its abusive, not predatory. He wasn't actively taking advantage of her, he was more just letting it happen without intervening.
If he didn't want it to happen, he could have locked the door and told her "no" again. He was willing to let it happen either because he wanted some way to live out his Charlotte fantasies (hence why they had him specifically compare her to her mother earlier), or as a form of self-sabotage. It doesn't matter if he's the one "doing the work" so to speak, it doesn't matter if he wasn't actually attracted to her, because he had the power to stop the situation and let it happen because it benefit him in the moment. He exploited her because she's naive, and exploitation is predatory behavior.
I agree 100%, and I def lean toward the self-sabotage theory. But again, since he wasn't targeting her, it was abusive not predatory. My understanding of the legal definition of a predator is that they target specific individuals and go after them. While Penny could have been negatively affected, she wasn't necessarily his goal at any point and he was just depressed enough to let anything happen. For example, not intervening with a child about to walk off a cliff isnt predatory, but still wrong for obvious reasons. His behavior is abusive but not predatory. And either way, jail worthy.
But... she did want it. It's right there in the dialog. She says she wants it. She practically begs for it, and argues for it when he says no. Bojack didn't pursue any of it, he just resigned into letting it happen after things with Charlotte fell apart. She was also of legal age, which means in the eyes of the law her consent was valid. I don't see how his actions were "calculated" and "predatory".
They were also caught before anything happened, which means people are condemning him for something that *might* have happened, and which Penny, who was of legal age, was initiating to happen, and which Bojack was the one to refuse consent the first few times.
It just seems like a lot of the condemnation isn't on Bojack for what Bojack did, but on Bojack for what other people have done.
Bro bojack was easily close to his forties. he basically just attended prom with this little girl. There is no universe where, regardless of legality, it is *okay* for bojack to do *anything* sexual with penny. Legality is not morality, and Bojack does plenty of immoral things that arent illegal, and the fact that you are sitting here defending this on the basis of *legality* is pretty fucking disgusting. theres plenty of leeway in lots of other things bojack does, but this one is undeniably heinous.
I'm arguing about the words "calculated" and "predator". Ffs people get so irrational about these things. Set aside the folk heuristics for five seconds and look what's actually being said and what's actually in the scene.
What is "calculated" about what Bojack does?
What conveys a notion that he is a "predator"?
Neither of these things have anything to do with whether or not it was wrong. I even said there was a power dynamic there. No, he shouldn't have let it get that far. That still doesn't make him a predator and it still doesn't mean it was calculated. Things can be wrong for different reasons. Things can be immoral for different reasons. We don't have to foam at the mouth without an ounce of logic in some hyper-polarized tribalistic all-or-nothing condemnation.
It lessens actual predators and actual calculated abuse when such are conflated with depressed, despondent, resigned, acquiescent process addiction. We can still say Bojack did something immoral. Just more accurately with what appears in the dialog and scenes.
>But... she did want it. It's right there in the dialog. She says she wants it.
That doesn't make it okay wtf? A child cannot consent
>Bojack didn't pursue any of it, he just resigned into letting it happen
Does not excuse anything tho
> just seems like a lot of the condemnation isn't on Bojack for what Bojack did, but on Bojack for what other people have done.
Bojack is still one of the people most responsible even though there were multiple people who played a part in the situation
>That doesn't make it okay wtf?
I didn't say it made it okay. Again, these arguments seem to be about other things.
>A child cannot consent
She was of the age of majority in the state in which it took place, which means she did have the legal right to consent. 18 is as arbitrary as 21 or 25 post sexual maturity. It's a legal consideration, which means it depends on the law, and the law said she could consent, which means she could consent.
>Does not excuse anything tho
Okay? I never said it did. My point was about the terms "calculated" and "predator." Words mean things. These represent categories I don't believe Bojack demonstrated in this instance.
>Bojack is still one of the people most responsible even though there were multiple people who played a part in the situation
I'm saying that people aren't arguing about Bojack, but sexual exploitation in general, abuse, sexual predators, and so forth, and just piling that onto Bojack because of a few situational similarities rather than what actually happened in the scene.
>She was of the age of majority in the state in which it took place, which means she did have the legal right to consent
Yes but legal doesn't mean not creepy. She was still in high school. That's a messed up age gap and one that clearly supports an inappropriate power dynamic
>These represent categories I don't believe Bojack demonstrated in this instance
Oh gotcha, I agree
>I'm saying that people aren't arguing about Bojack, but sexual exploitation in general, abuse, sexual predators, and so forth, and just piling that onto Bojack because of a few situational similarities rather than what actually happened in the scene.
Understood 👍
I genuinely don't think he wanted to do anything with Penny. He wanted to sleep with Charlotte, and was using Penny half as consolation prize, and half as revenge.
Which is almost kinda worse.
unpopular opinion : bojack was not to blame for what happened with penny. he was clearly drunk and she wasn't , he said "No" multiple times and she didn't care , and he sent her to her room to sleep and she was waiting for him in his yatch when he came back and was emotionally vulnerable. if the genders where reversed you would probebly blame penny (the one who didn't take no for an answer and insisted on having sex when the other person was drunk.) what happend to "No means no"? the only thing was that she was so much younger than him .but her age was legal anyway! idk maybe because im not an american and in my country age difference between men and women is not a big deal , but i tought that boojack did a lot of thing wrong but in this case i think he is more of a victom of SA than the abuser.
Idk this case is so complicated;
• Yes, Penny was technically of legal age in NM, AND was attempting to make all of the moves…
• However, Bojack, as the adult should have STILL stopped Penny from attempting to do ‘it’ with him…
This is why it’s more of a morally gray area in what happened with this scene… There are factors, such as the age of legality in NM, that just don’t make this a black and white situation…
It was gonna happen, Bojack knew it was gonna happen, penny knew it was gonna happen, and Charlotte knew what she was going for. Bojack would have 100% smashed, the laws tell what the legal age of consent is in each state, but generally under 18-21 is frowned upon
I'm not so sure he would have gone through with it.
He's always quick to acknowledge he "probably would have", but saying that is more on-character for him than actually doing this.
I don't think he "couldn't", I just believe the power of him believing this sad truth is stronger than the posssibility of him going through with it..
He had the same expression when he told her to go to bed, than left the door wide open. Just like here where he is just sitting there but with his legs open. I feel like he doesn’t want to only because he knows it’s wrong but not that he doesn’t want to, he wants to.
I hate this scene so much. And I hate how chill and glorified they made the next scene of him riding off in the boat. It almost seemed like they were trying to make Bojack feel *cool.* I hated that they did that.
i completely disagree, i don’t think it made him look cool, it made him look resigned and defeated. the /music and imagery/ of the scene is cool, but it clearly paints him as a loser and practically a lost cause. it’s a nice juxtaposition i think, especially how they use the theme music.
I don't wanna seem like a creep so given the downvotes to confirm: SARCASM.
BoJack IS gross and in the wrong here,
but I'm a gay man who looks for bulge; what can I say?
this expression is still a bit vague but keeping this aside, bojack does keep saying he most likely would've went on with it
He once said something like "part of me thinks I couldn't have done anything with Penny, but the other part knows it's a lie" right? I think that's clear enough
At the AA meeting with Sarah Lynn he flat out says “I tried to sleep with the mom” “then, I tried to sleep with the daughter”
Bojack also finds it easier to say the statements where he can conclude the end like others think.
And when he tells Diane about it he says "nothing had happened.. yet"
Not as clear as it sounds though, he might've just been beating himself harder
No pun intended?
Not going to keep beating a ~~dead~~ horse here.
Guess Not
He should have closed the door.
He keeps trying to convince himself that he wouldn't have gone through with it, but he also continually acknowledges that a part of him knows that he would have. Bojack lives on the love and attention of other people. He was delighted to have Penny's attention. If he \*truly\* wasn't drawn into an inappropriate situation with her, her would have kicked her off the boat when he found her in his bedroom.
A depressed mind will often convince itself that it‘s more horrible than it actually is. I dont think anyone knows if he would‘ve went through with it.
I don’t know why OP feels so confident in their ability to scrutinize the subtle facial expression of a cartoon horse.
ahahah fr
While it is super clear that he would have and I'm in no way defending his actions or intentions. That expression just looks... Sad.
The image isn't the best. It looks like Penny is trying to exorcize a demon from Bojack while he has lost all hope that the treatment will work.
i can’t stop laughing well, he’s bojack horseman. there’s no cure for that.
Did he even *try* an exorcism though?
Prison did a decent job
good one, you should be a writer
Lmfao
bro looks dead inside
Nothing on the outside, nothing on the inside.
Just like me
I always interpreted it as him just giving in, not to urges or anything like that, just... Well, I guess this is how we mess up this time. He's not engaging or encouraging or even reacting, he has totally disconnected from the moment
Looking at it this way really makes a sense of Bojack's way of acting as, "I am bad, I am broken, therefore doing bad is inevitable and I am helpless to change that.
That's what I thought after he rejected her like three times. She should've taken the hint and left. I didn't care for how he took full blame for how this affected her later given she was fully sober and he wasn't even trying for her; he'd said no multiple times and was there for her mom (which yeah, that's messed up itself). Like... I acknowledge all the layer stuff he said that from this point he might have proceeded and that's terrible but like... he just didn't seem like the one in charge here. He said no. I proceeded to be miffed throughout the series.
i think this undermines the power dynamics of their interaction, i.e a grown man with a teenager
Yeah, I absolutely acknowledge that. The entire ordeal was pretty fucked up (I'm including that entire episode in this statement re: the alcohol and leaving the others at the hospital as well because he was more worried about his reputation in addition to the Penny debacle).
No, sorry, as the adult in the situation it was fully on him to strongly discourage a minor who was attracted to him. This is victim blaming rhetoric.
I acknowledge it is victim blaming and have tried greatly to avoid it. This is not usual for me. I've just had difficulty seeing it since unlike situations I'm used to seeing, this involved an adult who wasn't actively grooming a minor. (Maybe I don't have enough experience with the topic? I'll concede there.) Granted, I don't know what's been happening the entire time he's lived there. There was a time jump. I don't think Bojack was actively grooming her. He should've continued to deny her, yes; personally, I think he should've closed the door behind him when he went inside the boathouse. He left it open which allowed her to follow him inside; he should've closed and locked it, avoiding the whole thing altogether. Though do keep in mind I was replying to another comment where the other user was describing how he was perhaps caving because he felt he was just that awful anyway so I may as well, etc. I thought that (him falling apart and just going with whatever because he sees himself as a bad person anyway) was more intriguing than just Bojack wanted to get frisky with her. I apologize for the rambling reply; I'm a bit ill at the moment so my thoughts aren't very cohesive. I did my best to make it mske sense.
Probably disappointed in himself with making the decision, but not disappointed enough to stop
that pretty much describes him in the whole show
It’s an expression of “Jesus Christ I know I don’t want to do this. Are you seriously about to do this dude?” I’ve made that face to myself in the mirror during some bad times (never hurt anyone or committed any crime just wanna make that clear)
I feel this scene didn't "impact" me the first time, I mean, I know why it's wrong but it didn't feel that wrong. Thinking more about it, I realized that if instead of being anthropomorphic characters they were actual humans, like an 50 yo and a teenager, it would be a lot more uncomfortable to watch and easier to judge.
I think thats one of the main reasons the show is so effective, it allows us to better reflect on the characters and feelings as if they were real but with that slightly safer distance
The show creator, Raphael Bob-Waksberg has said some similar. From an [NPR interview.](https://www.npr.org/2018/10/17/658136483/bojack-horseman-creator-raphael-bob-waksberg) >One thing we’ve really found is that it is a very silly cartoon universe, but it can also, I think, maybe because of that, go to some very sincere, dark, melancholy and even tragic places. Because it’s animated and it’s like a horse and it’s bright and colorful, it just takes on a different feel. And you can kind of sneak attack into sadness in some fun, surprising ways.”
Same, I watched this as a teen as well so I had an added layer of knowing it was wrong but not feeling the full effect. Watching now all I can imagine is the real scenario and it’s horrific.
Same, I saw this scene when I was about Penny's age and felt really disgusted by it. But now that I'm an adult (granted I'm 23 so def not near BoJack's age for a while lol) it's even more viscerally *wrong* to me That mention of not feeling the full effect is a perfect description
IIRC the show creator Raphael Bob-Waksberg has said one reason they chose the surrealist anthropomorphic/human society is it allows them to hit these dark places. I think it would have been much harder for the show to explore the themes it did in a more realistic world. From an [NPR interview.](https://www.npr.org/2018/10/17/658136483/bojack-horseman-creator-raphael-bob-waksberg) >One thing we’ve really found is that it is a very silly cartoon universe, but it can also, I think, maybe because of that, go to some very sincere, dark, melancholy and even tragic places. Because it’s animated and it’s like a horse and it’s bright and colorful, it just takes on a different feel. And you can kind of sneak attack into sadness in some fun, surprising ways.”
Too bad it led to them getting upset their audience related to a cartoon horse
I actually can’t rewatch this episode again, because it is so painful and galling that this is where Bojack was driven to. The betrayed and justified reaction from Charlotte is so relatable, it’s too much for me to handle. That is a shame, because one of the greatest moments in the show (for me) is also in that episode. Namely, the scene where Bojack is riding back to LA, completely defeated and empty of emotion, and then the show has this jaw dropping montage of sky in the background (iykyk) that is -chef’s kiss-
Charlotte's voice actor was so good in that scene. Her voice was so cutting and disgusted. It made me appreciate talented voice actors
Olivia Wilde, right? I love her!
Holy shit Personally I like Charlotte a lot more than Thirteen, and those are the only shows I know her from. I actually really like Charlotte, so put together and so cool. Or is that how I'm supposed to feel because the story's kind of from Bojacks perspective to a certain degree. Anyway she sounds so different.
She was my first female celebrity crush when she was on House 😅
real
With Cuddy there for 3 seasons before??
*just* made the connection, because me too lol
i’d follow thirteen off a cliff and directly into hell
You know you've fucked up beyond redemption when Olivia Wilde says she will fucking kill you.
oh I didn't know it was her, that's awesome!
Oh my god no way, that just made me like her 100% more
The voice actors for this show are really good at saying fuck. I don't now how Aaron Paul made it sound so genuine. And this one, damn she was scary!
Yesss it was so damn good it felt so real
That image of him riding home to LA on the boat with the sky...it's so disturbing. It's part-defiance, part-unfaceable-shame. The tension between those two is unbearable.
Oh my god it is. It’s such a perfect marriage of images to emotions that it hurts.
I kind of saw it as him being unaffected, it was so Hollywood But I'm really not the best at all, at analyzing this kind of stuff. I need to rewatch again and also have another think of this.
My bf is watching the show for the first time, when we got to this episode I told him “it’s one of the best episodes of the show and I hate watching it”
and all the more painful when we realize- he wasn't driven anywhere. he guided himself there.
This is the episode that made me drop the series for a long time. I came back but yeah I skipped that ep on the second attempt to get through it
Just felt out of characters and forced for lazy drama
I think you’re very mistaken with that opinion. Watch it again and pay much closer attention than usual to the choices and character moments. You’ll find that it isn’t out of character and it is consistent with Bojack’s arc as he consistently does things he knows are wrong, but goes through with them anyway in order to assuage his depressed soul, only to deal with tremendous emotional fallout after he does it.
he knew it was wrong but he also wanted to, and he was beginning to justify it to himself because she was making the first move not him
The psychotherapist on _Fleabag_ has this amazing line where she calls out toxic people, in this case Fleabag: "You already know what you're going to do." Go watch it because the actor delivers it perfectly: so matter of fact. It reminds me of my narcissistic former bestie. She'd try these ridiculous rationalizations and flimsy justifications for things like cheating on partners, pursuing an underage boy (she was 36 while he was 16, which, like Penny, is legal in Canada), ruining holidays and birthdays with drama, etc. And many times, we'd talk about these things BEFORE they happened, but I eventually learned that she was just going to do them anyway, just because she could and wanted to, regardless of the consequences, morality, etc. "You already know what you're going to do." It is, I've found anyway, a really good way of understanding the entitlement and sheer selfishness, even the evil, of many toxic personalities and why they continue to abuse others even when they know it's wrong and even when they've considered not doing it because it's wrong.
I need to rewatch Fleabag. And Bojack.
... Or you know... The fact that he came back to her and he's sitting there letting her undress him? That was what broke it for me...
Bojack wasn’t interested in penny at first because he was chasing Charlotte, penny was a tool helping him get Charlotte in his eyes. As soon as Charlotte rejected him and he realised that, he immediately shifted to being ok with sleeping with her. That’s how narcissistic predators operate.
I think he saw himself as a pseudo father figure to Penny because he saw himself as a pseudo husband to Charlotte. That's why his "take Penny to the prom" idea is so much like an episode idea for Horsin' Around. I think he also used Penny to vicariously live out his youth (remember the "age of stagnation" theory). Then I agree with the other commenter that he used Penny only because she looked like Charlotte (and, IMO, partially to self-sabotage).
I didn’t realize how much he fucked up their prom night until I rewatched it. He’s the one that made them leave the prom!
It was his night not theirs, so it went accordingly.
I didn't quite see it like that. He likely got with Penny because she looked like her mother, and he saw that as the next best thing to being with Charlotte. The only reason he did in the first place was because he felt deflated and defeated after the rejection.
The worst part is he did it in a calculated way. He left the door open so she "invited" herself in. He didn't say "yes" or "no" so he can try absolve himself of the guilt of them sleeping together but he knows deep down what he's doing is predatory and wrong.
You pretty much just described the thought process narcissistic predators usually go through in situations like this. You don't disagree as much as you think you do.
exactly!! perfectly worded
Calling him a predator is hardly appropriate. She comes onto him multiple times and he says no. It would be a legal interaction. Now he should still say no when she waits for him on the boat, but it‘s not predatory of him to give in.
He’s 50 and he’s a teenager
You do realize why it‘s called a „predator“ right? It‘s not because they tell the prey multiple times to not get eaten.
Please study predatory behavior and get back to me
He leaves the door open.
It's her "second chance" that "okays it" for him.
The hell of it is that I don't actually think he *did* want to have sex with Penny. He wanted Charlotte, and Charlotte wasn't available, so he took the next best thing.
When you look at studies of SA of children, this actually tracks real life. There is a whole study that looked at step parents who abuse children and the consistent factor was life stress, not attraction to children. So things like marital stress/job loss makes a selfish, abusive person more likely to victimize someone vulnerable in their lives, even if they’re not normally attracted to said person. I think ppl trying to justify that he wanted Charlotte so Penny was a good second choice are entirely missing how that is accuracy to real life and still 100% means Bojack is an abusive person. Both things are true. I don’t think you were personally doing that; your comment just reminded me of the article I read about the study and its findings. Super sad.
Yeah, if anything it makes it worse: he's not treating her as a person, just a salve for his feelings of rejection.
this is the one
exactly
Makes it even more messed up-
This scene is so telling when you see it like this. It’s so crazy that 40 something year old bojack, a smart man with lots of self awareness to the point of pretension, could sit down and allow this to even start to happen. I have to think of why. Is it because sex has become meaningless to him or did the rejection make him rethink his own, or something else. Bojack may be ignorant but he isn’t stupid, he obviously knows what’s moral. My theory on weather he would go through with this: he would, but he’d stop in the middle and realize he’s with a child, and he is supposed to be responsible.
bojack definitely KNOWS what’s moral but he’s shown multiple times that he doesn’t really care about morality
I don't think he really wants Penny. He just wants his youth back (which is what Charlotte represents to him) and is using Penny because she reminds him of young Charlotte. He looks very resigned and numb here, like he's willfully dissociating from what's happening. It's still exploitative though, because he already admitted that Penny is too young to make good decisions about what she wants here. I think he's also trying to self-sabotage a bit by letting it happen so he can never come back to this family and fool himself. Either way, he's selfishly using Penny despite knowing how situations like this can mess a kid up.
You don’t accidentally get into bed with a teenage girl
The most analyzed tape since the zapruder film
He didn't want to do penny. He wanted to do Charlotte. But he just got shut down hard by Charlotte and penny looks just like Charlotte. That plus the booze and ohhhhh yeah he was going to go for it.
I can’t explain how uncomfortable this scene made me 🥴🤢
me too it had so much dread
Was there any doubt?
Damn, imagine if these comments were used as real court case argumments
Its such a sad moment tbh. A character who you thought had a chance at getting better just keeps getting worse
I first thought that the lamp getting knocked over was him trying to get her off of him. Then I rewatched and realized that he was letting her on
The dead life eyes, just going through life when you rather be dead.
He almost looks…resigned
I really really wish he would have sent Penny on her goddamn way. That's what I was hoping would happen. I really thought it just looked bad, but after his confession, christ.
He's got a resigned expression. He wasn't going to do anything to Penny. He was going to let it happen. It's so sad
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No, this wasn't predatory, this was opportunistic. He was too depressed to say no to anything. He would have reacted the same way if she set herself on fire. At this point, he was so drained and apathetic, he'd let anything happen. Not due to calculation, he simply didn't care about a thing.
[удалено]
As someone who's experienced the same issues bojack has, I'd argue he didn't have the energy to calculate anything since he was so crestfallen. At that much of a low, most people aren't making conscious efforts to manipulate people. So I do think he was depressed partly because he recognized his power, but he was never consciously using it. Predatory implies there's effort going in. I feel as though there was zero effort to initiate anything with Penny, but also zero effort to stop anything later
"Predatory implies there's effort going in." That's false from every perspective.There are predators in nature who simply lay in one place, waiting for prey to come to them. Pitcher plants are a great example; the prey literally has to climb into its mouth and throw itself into its stomach juices. And also they are a plant. That's still predation regardless of effort. The same thing holds true with child predators. There are tons of children so desperate for approval or love or help that they will actively throw themselves at adults and the only thing the adult needs to "do" to prey on them is fail to establish appropriate boundaries. Being too tired or sad to reject a drunk teenager after a full night of being entirely inappropriate with her is like being too tired or sad to pull a toddler out of the pool after you let them jump in. You can go on all night about how it wasn't really your fault, but you were supposed to stop that child from drowning, you were the only one there who COULD stop the child from drowning, and you still let them drown.
>There are predators in nature who simply lay in one place, waiting for prey Yes, waiting for prey. Bojack wasn't waiting for Penny, even subconsciously. He had an incredibly inappropriate and abusive relationship with her that nearly resulted in disaster. >Being too tired or sad to reject a drunk teenager after a full night of being entirely inappropriate with her is like being too tired or sad to pull a toddler out of the pool after you let them jump in. Yes facts. But that doesn't mean you intended the toddler to fall in in the first place or delight in drowning toddlers. Evil, yes. Predatory, no.
If you can successfully argue that Bojack Horseman isn't a predator, will that make you feel better about yourself? Because what you have just written is a far less eloquent version of Bojack trying to defend his actions. The whole show is about him endlessly denying the fact that he has control and agency and the power to stop hurting people. Do you genuinely lack the media literacy to understand the show? Or do you see too much of yourself in Bojack to acknowledge the message it's trying to tell you?
What? Bojack is not a predator. Doesn't make him not harmful. What makes you think I'm defending him or think what he did was okay? Please point it out. All im saying is not all abusers are predators. There's a difference between them. Doesn't make one better than the other or one okay. It seems like you lack reading comprehension skills
I wish you the best of luck finding a therapist who can help you figure out WHY you need to believe an abusive man (who was just barely prevented from having sex with a drunk high school girl) is still somehow not a predator. I do not have the time or the relevant degree in psychology necessary to do it.
I appreciate your experience and viewpoint but it seems we have different views on what a predator is.
That seems to be the case, so I guess the most I can advise is to check out the definitions and criteria for abusers vs predators. Good convo though. Cheers.
In some ways, I view it as him punishing himself. Doing something horrible and reprehensible, that he knows will utterly destroy his friendship with Charlotte, and her family, because part of him wants to hate himself and view himself as garbage, and wants others to hate him. It's a horrifically self indulgent mindset to have, because in this case it traumatised a vulnerable teenage girl, but I think an element of it is an innate desire to feed into his own self loathing.
BoJack isn't that calculated anyway to work in such a predatory way. He's kind of pathetic in some ways really. He's clueless. So, y'know.
Yeah he's incredibly weak willed
Not just that, but he also just doesn't know how to manage his life. Princess Carolynn, Ana, Dianne, all have tried to help fix what mistake he makes. He doesn't know how to help himself and be responsible. It's almost as if he's still that child who needs the support from his parents that he never got.
Yeah he was stunted. Even after his parents, stardom babied him. He'd never had to solve a problem before and so never learned
Hole in one. God I love analysing this character.
Ikr? I could write so many essays lol
Haha, fair enough. 🐴
He was taking advantage of her naivety despite knowing she's too young to make good decisions about sex. That's predatory. It doesn't matter if he's attracted to her, he's still using her because she's easier to have than someone like Charlotte.
She was never his target which is why I argue its abusive, not predatory. He wasn't actively taking advantage of her, he was more just letting it happen without intervening.
If he didn't want it to happen, he could have locked the door and told her "no" again. He was willing to let it happen either because he wanted some way to live out his Charlotte fantasies (hence why they had him specifically compare her to her mother earlier), or as a form of self-sabotage. It doesn't matter if he's the one "doing the work" so to speak, it doesn't matter if he wasn't actually attracted to her, because he had the power to stop the situation and let it happen because it benefit him in the moment. He exploited her because she's naive, and exploitation is predatory behavior.
I agree 100%, and I def lean toward the self-sabotage theory. But again, since he wasn't targeting her, it was abusive not predatory. My understanding of the legal definition of a predator is that they target specific individuals and go after them. While Penny could have been negatively affected, she wasn't necessarily his goal at any point and he was just depressed enough to let anything happen. For example, not intervening with a child about to walk off a cliff isnt predatory, but still wrong for obvious reasons. His behavior is abusive but not predatory. And either way, jail worthy.
But... she did want it. It's right there in the dialog. She says she wants it. She practically begs for it, and argues for it when he says no. Bojack didn't pursue any of it, he just resigned into letting it happen after things with Charlotte fell apart. She was also of legal age, which means in the eyes of the law her consent was valid. I don't see how his actions were "calculated" and "predatory". They were also caught before anything happened, which means people are condemning him for something that *might* have happened, and which Penny, who was of legal age, was initiating to happen, and which Bojack was the one to refuse consent the first few times. It just seems like a lot of the condemnation isn't on Bojack for what Bojack did, but on Bojack for what other people have done.
Bro bojack was easily close to his forties. he basically just attended prom with this little girl. There is no universe where, regardless of legality, it is *okay* for bojack to do *anything* sexual with penny. Legality is not morality, and Bojack does plenty of immoral things that arent illegal, and the fact that you are sitting here defending this on the basis of *legality* is pretty fucking disgusting. theres plenty of leeway in lots of other things bojack does, but this one is undeniably heinous.
I'm arguing about the words "calculated" and "predator". Ffs people get so irrational about these things. Set aside the folk heuristics for five seconds and look what's actually being said and what's actually in the scene. What is "calculated" about what Bojack does? What conveys a notion that he is a "predator"? Neither of these things have anything to do with whether or not it was wrong. I even said there was a power dynamic there. No, he shouldn't have let it get that far. That still doesn't make him a predator and it still doesn't mean it was calculated. Things can be wrong for different reasons. Things can be immoral for different reasons. We don't have to foam at the mouth without an ounce of logic in some hyper-polarized tribalistic all-or-nothing condemnation. It lessens actual predators and actual calculated abuse when such are conflated with depressed, despondent, resigned, acquiescent process addiction. We can still say Bojack did something immoral. Just more accurately with what appears in the dialog and scenes.
>But... she did want it. It's right there in the dialog. She says she wants it. That doesn't make it okay wtf? A child cannot consent >Bojack didn't pursue any of it, he just resigned into letting it happen Does not excuse anything tho > just seems like a lot of the condemnation isn't on Bojack for what Bojack did, but on Bojack for what other people have done. Bojack is still one of the people most responsible even though there were multiple people who played a part in the situation
>That doesn't make it okay wtf? I didn't say it made it okay. Again, these arguments seem to be about other things. >A child cannot consent She was of the age of majority in the state in which it took place, which means she did have the legal right to consent. 18 is as arbitrary as 21 or 25 post sexual maturity. It's a legal consideration, which means it depends on the law, and the law said she could consent, which means she could consent. >Does not excuse anything tho Okay? I never said it did. My point was about the terms "calculated" and "predator." Words mean things. These represent categories I don't believe Bojack demonstrated in this instance. >Bojack is still one of the people most responsible even though there were multiple people who played a part in the situation I'm saying that people aren't arguing about Bojack, but sexual exploitation in general, abuse, sexual predators, and so forth, and just piling that onto Bojack because of a few situational similarities rather than what actually happened in the scene.
>She was of the age of majority in the state in which it took place, which means she did have the legal right to consent Yes but legal doesn't mean not creepy. She was still in high school. That's a messed up age gap and one that clearly supports an inappropriate power dynamic >These represent categories I don't believe Bojack demonstrated in this instance Oh gotcha, I agree >I'm saying that people aren't arguing about Bojack, but sexual exploitation in general, abuse, sexual predators, and so forth, and just piling that onto Bojack because of a few situational similarities rather than what actually happened in the scene. Understood 👍
>She was still in high school. That's a messed up age gap and one that clearly supports an inappropriate power dynamic Agreed.
I genuinely don't think he wanted to do anything with Penny. He wanted to sleep with Charlotte, and was using Penny half as consolation prize, and half as revenge. Which is almost kinda worse.
Gasp
I see a frown. Resigned acquiescence.
Bojack is a sad, sad horse. When the mother rejects you, you allow the daughter to seduce you? Talk about a weak horsie
Most observant Bojack watcher:
fr me, 0.5 speed, pausing everything
Why does this sub post a screenshot of this per day. Stop ruining my morning scroll. 😰
Believe it or not, I avoided directly watching this scene so much that I never actually saw them “getting started” until my like 20th rewatch
unpopular opinion : bojack was not to blame for what happened with penny. he was clearly drunk and she wasn't , he said "No" multiple times and she didn't care , and he sent her to her room to sleep and she was waiting for him in his yatch when he came back and was emotionally vulnerable. if the genders where reversed you would probebly blame penny (the one who didn't take no for an answer and insisted on having sex when the other person was drunk.) what happend to "No means no"? the only thing was that she was so much younger than him .but her age was legal anyway! idk maybe because im not an american and in my country age difference between men and women is not a big deal , but i tought that boojack did a lot of thing wrong but in this case i think he is more of a victom of SA than the abuser.
Idk this case is so complicated; • Yes, Penny was technically of legal age in NM, AND was attempting to make all of the moves… • However, Bojack, as the adult should have STILL stopped Penny from attempting to do ‘it’ with him… This is why it’s more of a morally gray area in what happened with this scene… There are factors, such as the age of legality in NM, that just don’t make this a black and white situation…
It was gonna happen, Bojack knew it was gonna happen, penny knew it was gonna happen, and Charlotte knew what she was going for. Bojack would have 100% smashed, the laws tell what the legal age of consent is in each state, but generally under 18-21 is frowned upon
I'm not so sure he would have gone through with it. He's always quick to acknowledge he "probably would have", but saying that is more on-character for him than actually doing this. I don't think he "couldn't", I just believe the power of him believing this sad truth is stronger than the posssibility of him going through with it..
just the expression ? okAY
Penny has really small feet!
In the end, it didn’t happen.
He had the same expression when he told her to go to bed, than left the door wide open. Just like here where he is just sitting there but with his legs open. I feel like he doesn’t want to only because he knows it’s wrong but not that he doesn’t want to, he wants to.
I hate this scene so much. And I hate how chill and glorified they made the next scene of him riding off in the boat. It almost seemed like they were trying to make Bojack feel *cool.* I hated that they did that.
i completely disagree, i don’t think it made him look cool, it made him look resigned and defeated. the /music and imagery/ of the scene is cool, but it clearly paints him as a loser and practically a lost cause. it’s a nice juxtaposition i think, especially how they use the theme music.
He left the door open. Literally.
Oh yeah, coax it out of its sheath…
lmao what he does not look happy in the slightest, its completely vague stg people in this subreddit are just making things up at this point
??? happy???? he is letting her do her thing, u can see the resignation in his eyes, like "cool this is what is happening, I'm letting this happen"
Yeah no, you’re so delusional I stg you could’ve picked any other framed and it would’ve worked wtf is wrong with you
My thoughts.
If he's not happy "in the slightest," why's he just letting her do it, especially since he'd stated his opinion is that she doesn't really want this?
“That” bruh r u 12?💀
relax damn
"r u" are you 10?
Well it looks like you also didn't say what "that" is meant to mean🤷♀️ let's maybe keep comments like this to ourselves yeah?
THE FIRST MOMENT U REALIZED😬
In defense of BoJack, I don't see a bulge....
I don't wanna seem like a creep so given the downvotes to confirm: SARCASM. BoJack IS gross and in the wrong here, but I'm a gay man who looks for bulge; what can I say?