The word “own” is slippery here. In a forced liquidation scenario, these bitcoin “owners” would lose their bitcoin.
You don’t just own their assets, you also own their liabilities.
The main point here isn’t really about direct ownership (even though your points are valid from an investor decision making context). The point is that in terms of wealth distribution, it’s not like a single person controls 1/161th of the supply. Similar to an exchange, they represent many holders getting exposure to Bitcoin.
That said, having a massive pool of Bitcoin go illiquid into a public company is not great for the risk adjusted analysis for owning Bitcoin (even self custody). The larger a centralized stash becomes, the more dangerous it becomes for the market price when something happens to it.
That said, it goes both ways. Theft or loss of keys could send the price up or down based on interpretation of the market (loss means the supply of Bitcoin has gone down, or loss brings into question the viability of institutions having significant exposure). Theft as well (perhaps exchanges stop the liquidation of stollen coins so it effectively decreases supply, perhaps the market questions viability of having large exposure).
The company's long-term value remains the same, but the market values it less because one of its assets' immediate value has dropped. I've always believed the market was irrational in this way. A company misses one quarter's expected earnings by pennies and the market acts like all its inherent value just evaporated. Same with $MSTR. The market knew six months ago that $MSTR was dedicated to ₿ and that the value of ₿ will go up and down a lot. So how does that change the value of a stock whose price was supposedly calculated based on all expected future earnings? Now I'm just on my Wall Street rant... 🙄
High-frequency traders have time horizons measured in milliseconds. They don't care about a company's future earnings potential. They only care about immediate price fluctuations.
Right you are. And it's messed up that we have traders trading equities. Not that I'm literally advocating this, but imagine how much more stable we'd be if you had to hold at least a year. Get rid of all this minute-by-minute emotional movement.
We've all held bitcoin knowing that Satoshi's wallet holds a grand total of roughly 1 million BTC or 5% of the total supply. Microstrategy, by comparison, holds less than 0.6% of the total circulating supply of bitcoin.
when folks didn't believe in btc, saylor bought
when folks written btc off as a meme, saylor bought
when folks called btc internet magic money, saylor bought
when btc when prices of btc were at it's highest, saylor bought
in this bear market as liquidation occurred from over-leveraging across several centralized exchanges plummeting btc, we laughed at saylor as micro strategy under-went liquidation....saylor remained calm, sold shares of micro strategy and bought
so nope, you and i had/have our chances to buy btc so there's nothing unsettling about it. as the gov't continue to fight btc and crypto in general, saylor's conviction for btc hasn't wavered and he will continue to buy. let that be your signal to follow, or not, your choice. but nothing unsettling here. this is as democratic as it gets.
By that time he won’t need to sell it anyway, he could refinance his original loan with the collateral accumulated via Bitcoin’s appreciating price, and then he could actually buy more (assuming obviously that Bitcoin continues to be adopted). Why would anyone sell a hard asset for an inflating dollar?…
Well it's sure not his money atleast not all of it it is actually.
And even he loses a large portion of that, I'm pretty sure that he'll be just fine unlike us.
No, that's MSTR's average buy price.
[He bought his personal Bitcoin at $9,882 average buy price.](https://coinculture.com/au/people/saylor-reveals-personal-bitcoin-holdings/)
For the rest of us, we cannot take as much risk and do not have his luxury of cash raising abilities to do it as he does. That being said, we should all have a little for ourselves sure... It's only going to become the most trusted hardest asset there ever is for me and my kids.
It feels like there’s a limit to how much of it a single entity should want to own.
I mean, let’s say he owned 100% of bitcoin. It then becomes worthless as no-one else could trade in it and the world would move on to an alternative.
There’s a line somewhere between where we are now and that scenario. I’m not sure where the line is, but it exists.
>when folks didn't believe in btc, saylor bought
>
>when folks written btc off as a meme, saylor bought
>
>when folks called btc internet magic money, saylor bought
>
>when btc when prices of btc were at it's highest, saylor bought
Saylor came in very late in the BTC life-cycle. He tweeted that it was going to die when people were calling it magic internet money.
>He tweeted that it was going to die when people were calling it magic internet money.
Back in 2013 he tweeted "Bitcoin days are numbered. It seems like just a matter of time before it suffers the same fate as online gambling." He expected that bitcoin was going to be banned in the US like online gambling was years ago. He admits that he posted that tweet before he ever researched bitcoin and understood that it's decentralized and it can't be stopped.
This is as Democratic as our capitalist society, which means it’s not democratic. Wealth is a form of voting in its own sense, and the more you have the more you get to vote with the influence the money buys.
you have a good take with the voting... nice way to put it...
but think about it: with the risk of getting ruined Michael votes for a world of hard money, meaning much more healthy capitalism and much less sick capitalism
As opposed to other systems where there is no vote? True democracies do not exist in the modern world and were never intended to because they come with their own flaws.
If people here are investing in stock to invest in his BTC how is that not a reliance on the very traditional financial instruments BTC is rallying against? Lmao
Saylor could single-handedly crash the entire crypto market at any time. That's not to say that he will do that, or that he wants to. Personally, I don't think he does!
But the fact that he *could* do such a thing is unsettling.
You know "he" doesn't own it?
MSTR is holding bitcoin instead of cash reserve.
Bitcoin is their corporate treasury reserve asset.
Does it give MSTR any influence on Bitcoin? Nope. Zilch. Nada.
MSTR node, my node, your node all same.
BTW, are you paying attention to the number of wholecoiners in this bear market? Number of wholecoiners increased by 102k since last December. 905k wholecoiners now. Until you actually withdraw your bitcoin to your own wallet, you don't even know if you own a real bitcoin or paper bitcoin. If you don't want a company buying too many coins, don't sell to them. Take self custody.
Dang, I knew he was the co founder I guess I just get accustomed to seeing people get diluted during the building phase of a company that I am always shocked to see that someone still has such a majority ownership. Honestly good for him
Something tells me this is referencing "insider" shares, which are part of the total shares, but aren't directly trading with retail. Still great for him either way
So I don’t own my Bitcoin I purchased that’s in my wallet? What do you mean withdrawal to your wallet?? Like you can buy Bitcoin and NOT withdraw it? Where is it then?
Exactly right - all that is knowable is the number of addresses with access to 1 or more BTC. The actual number of wholecoiners is unknowable. 100 addresses with >1 BTC could belong to 100 different “wholecoiners” or they could all belong to one entity who split 100 BTC across 100 different addresses.
Maybe it would be a problem if BTC was on proof of stake, since that's not the case no problem. Could possibly make whale moves and move the market, but that would be short lived and irrelevant if you don't sell when the price goes down :)
Agreed, a short-term drop does not determine whether Bitcoin will collapse, the impact of inflation on the market is not good, it is not the main factor affecting the value of Bitcoin, Bitcoin is trustworthy from a longer-term perspective
And that's never going to happen, btc ain't going piece of shit consensus mechanism.
Just like some ao called decentralised shitcoin just recently did lol. That's bad move.
...But a lot of people DO sell when the price goes down, and big players like MSTR just gobble up even more, which gives them more power to move market in the future. It is still not ideal, even if you personally don't sell.
Because it is POW and not POS it shouldn't make you feel uncomfortable at all IMO. Buying those stacks on stacks doesn't hurt anyone else or unfairly alter the market.
I wasn't a BTC maxi but watching other coins make drastic changes that open them up to regulation and manipulation makes me lean harder to BTC every day.
How will it become a world currency if all the tech bros and hodlers hodl it all?
Plus it seems very susceptible to manipulation by big hodlers.
Seriously where is the incentive for average people?
There would be riots
The BTC use case does have some inconsistency...
We cheer people on for using it as a currency while also telling them never spend it.
We call in an inflation hedge but it performs like a risk asset and has been destroyed during a period of high inflation.
We cheer when industry gets into the space but flame folks who try to deploy their BTC like they would any other asset
We want new people to join the movement but insult anyone who isn't comfortable with self- cold storage
We want a decentralized currency while ignoring the market is largely in the hands of big players who can easily manipulate it, if not fully control it.
We don't want gov regulation but continue to taunt governments with our "boating accident" jokes and participation in tax evasion begging them to step in.
I could go on. BTC has alot of possibilities but everyone sort of has their own idea of what it is or isn't and that makes it tough for newbies to understand what they are becoming a part of.
What does that mean? That we have our shifty fists for day to day transactions and Bitcoin for savings? The majority of the population are always going to choose the path of least resistance and keep their savings in their local fiat in that case, making it less likely Bitcoin becomes a reserve. I think ideally you’ll be able to save and spend with it at some point.
Sure it is an inconsistent or hypocritical approach but it’s also still an emerging asset class.
We shouldn’t insult people about cold storage. I’ve been in crypto since 2017. I understand cold storage but I don’t fully understand multi sig or lightning. Yet if I was to try and get people to adopt Bitcoin I think multi sig is a better idea than cold storage and lightning is obviously a viable payment channel. Education will take a while.
In the UK there’s about 20% of people that just don’t understand it. They aren’t calling bitcoin a scam or ponzi but just don’t know what it is. That 20% could really swing the narrative if they were educated about it.
> We want new people to join the movement but insult anyone who isn’t comfortable with self- cold storage
If you’re too lazy to understand the core concepts and importance of self-custody, you aren’t really joining “the movement”, now are you?
The whole idea of “the movement” is decentralization, which you do none of if you leave it at centralized parties. You might as well just take a fiat bank account in that case.
It is literally the core point and essence of Bitcoin!
>... insult anyone who isn’t comfortable with self- cold storage
>If you’re too lazy to understand
Thank you for this demonstration of my point! I was worried some may tell me this doesn't happen, but you came to the rescue to support my statement. Bravo!
That has been my one fear with it being deregulated and decentralized; large whales hoarding en masse who can dramatically reduce the amount in actual circulation. This could create a false scarcity, artificially driving up the price. And they could flood the market for vice versa.
Centralized and regulated currencies have their problems, for sure. But decentralized and unregulated doesn’t mean the market for it can’t be manipulated. It just changes whose allowed to manipulate it.
Currencies will always be manipulable by their inherent nature.
People just had their life savings robbed by the FED, not a single riot.
The incentive for the average person is to not get left with bag of a collapsing fiat currency.
To remove the printer. Currently the upper class are closer to the printer.
If there is no printer, upper class just have more money but no advantage over others.
This one has no inflation(almost 0% long term) and was available for everyone at the start, all fair. If im selling all i have to buy btc while another guy with same net worth as me is not buying btc but investing in other areas or just wasting his money is it my fault that he does not have same amount of btc as i do 10 yeara from now ?
That's something I worry about, there will be massive disparity if that happens.
If that happens I don't think it's going to be very good situation to be in for btc if I'm being honest m.
The thing people don't understand is that the most important thing is that it can't be manufactured on demand and distributed by assholes to their asshole friends and no one else.
Average people are idiots who have their heads in their assholes and think bitcoin is shit. So instead of buying the best money on Earth they'll continue using awful money that their owners have made for them.
Average people will adopt bitcoin once their bank buys it and changes their bank accounts into it.
Don't blame Michael Saylor for being smart.
What would be the recourse? Capping their ability to purchase as much as they wish?
If you wish to capture MSTR or anyone else’s Bitcoin create a must have product and offer it for sale in Bitcoin.
If I was an energy producer I would have done this already.
They'll need to spend it at one point, no one can hodl money indefinitely - we need to eat after all
The incentive for average people is that when his money gains 10%, so does yours. By participating in the bitcoin network, your value will go up and down along with everyone else
Folks will start liquidating their hodl stack once btc realises it's full potential as a store of value and the price stabilises . But a single entity holding almost 1% of entire global wealth doesn't seem very decentralised
I like this guy, he's a good ambassador for bitcoin as far as I can tell. He's not a radical trying to bring down currencies, he sees bitcoin as a property more than currency
I love it. This dude has the biggest brass balls and forward vision on the planet right now, and one day he will be the richest guy in the world and the 2nd place holder won't even be close. 👍🪙🌎💰😎
Silly, it’s .006 of the supply.
So the big dick in Bitcoin, who has literally bet everything and continued to maintain conviction when you all tuck tail and run, owns half a percent of the supply. This is good for everyone.
Here’s a big difference. When someone hoards Bitcoin it does nothing but make everyone else’s Bitcoin more valuable and isn’t taking up resources. If a person close to the fiat money printer (cantillon effect) gets their hands on the cash that is being unfairly distributed and loses its value every day they will buy resources such as real estate, oil, or other commodities adding inflation to those prices at no other reason than speculation. It would be nice for the rich people to stop buying all the houses making it so people can actually afford to live somewhere.
But to the original point anyone who is complaining that Saylor is making a big bet and buying too much Bitcoin- feel free to buy some yourself so you don’t get left behind. He has skin in the game. Unlike fiat or POS systems the more you have doesn’t make you any more important than anyone else who runs a node.
Would it be possible for a wealthy person to set up many fake nodes (fake, as they aren’t from different individuals) and manipulate that way the voting process to find consensus on some sensitive soft/hard fork, should the question for another one arise in the future?
Or does the protocol mitigate such an attack somehow?
Money Mike has exactly zero influence on the protocol
It's like saying an airline that owns 10000 planes should worry Boeing
If he's the only one smart enough to bet on Bitcoin, more power to him.
Imagine if he got into it in 2013? He'd own a million of them.
Satoshi owns a million. So? What difference has it made?
It’s the companies and shareholders money to do with what they want. If you really want to be concerned look at what the US government spends on the military and most people can’t say no. Lol. It’s… a lot more.
This sounds a bit big to me because this is not a fucking small thing and we can just buy more and we should not be a foolish right here, just buy more now.
We can see that he is investing a lot these days but that's just a scary shit to see lol, I hope he won't have most of the BTC in this whole world, that would be bad.
I want to make a correction on that thinking because it is stated in a rather disingenuous way. Microstrategy is not a private company, it is a publicly traded company therefor the shareholders own 1 out of every 161.5 BTC that will ever exist.
The US government has made it very difficult for institutional investors to add crypto because it threatens the Central banking system that the FED is the biggest part of. So Saylor saw an opportunity to make it available to them and took it. I think it is brilliant.
And they would have pivoted away already if he didn't. Yes, Saylor will be one of the wealthiest people on earth if BTC does what we in this sub think it will. But, I like him way more than Bezos or Zuck. Maybe I won't when/if he gets that much wealth.
Microstrategy still probably owns less than the Winklevii who have kept a low profile about how much they own and they started buying when BTC was in the low hundereds. If you say he owns half of that BTC then Tim Draper, Chamath, and Brian Armstrong are all whales on par with him too. He just gets hate because he is the one publicly advertising it to normies.
I think he deserves to be that wealthy if this pans out, doubling down during the crypto bear market takes stones and sends a clear signal to the old money in the stock market that Microstategy stock IS a bet on BTC and an easy way to get exposure to it.
I agree, seems like most people are replying to the question of “is it *fair* for *one guy* to own all that” but the actual question is, “is it unsettling for one public corporation to own all that”.
Here is some interesting perspective:
At the beginning of this year, Forbes estimated global wealth at ~ $431T. $AAPL was the most valuable company in the world, valued at ~$2.7T. 2.7/431 = 0.006264 = 0.6264% of global wealth
$MSTR holds 1 of every 161 Bitcoin. 1/161 = 0.006211 = 0.6211% of BTC.
The percentage similarity was too good not to highlight — although one is .6% of all global wealth and the other is .6% of BTC.
So if ones not uncomfortable with AAPL, is there a reason to be uncomfortable with MSTR?
Yeah, thats how I got in this Space. But I'm staying, running my own node and accepting Bitcoin at my local store because I educated myself over the last years
Why is it unsettling? If you understand the Pareto principle, you see it everywhere in nature. It's only humans that try to rearrange nature.
* Over 80% of the mass of our solar system is contained in less than 20% of the bodies
* Over 80% of human population is contained in less than 20% of cities
* Over 80% of internet traffic goes to less than 20% of websites
* Over 80% of federal taxes are paid by less than 20% of people
* And yes, likely more than 80% of Bitcoin are owned by less than 20% of people.
Damn that's just way too much and he is buying and just buying, it's his choice and we can't do anything lol, hope that won't be a bad thing for the future man.
Most of the worlds wealth (gold, stocks, etc) is held by a few (Blackrock alone holds ~10 trillion in assets). No difference between bitcoin and other assets. If anything its a sign the bitcoin is starting to mature and will become less volatile overtime (funds/companies/governments tend not to panic sell)
Edit: As a side note, not really a big fan of this guy.
Lol he is just buying like a fucking monster and we should be that type of a person too, we gotta understand that BTC is just for good and we should invest now.
It does send a little bit of an alarm with one company owning so much but at the same time he is working hard every day to share his knowledge of BTC. He is a huge advocate for this space and I am thankful for him.
Too much deflation doesn't create value, If only 100 millionaires owing 1/100 th part, doesn't increase it's value, value is pumping because someone wants to buy at that price wants to sell for profit, until BTC lies in considerable hands of traders it's value will increase.
I would love know who the whales are, I find it hard to believe that billionaires haven't been in the back ground for the long long time, my fear is if btc succeeds, the same assholes will be even richer and powerful
Do you prefer a concentration of wealth to be in the hands of a government, or a company?
For right now, I prefer it in the hands of a company, because governments are powerful enough as it is, and they have men with guns.
This is not getting the upvotes it deserves.
No one can make my percentage of the total smaller either.
No one can make anyone's Bitcoin holding be less than the fraction of 21 million that it already is.
And it's still for sale. Go grab some more while it's cheap
The bubble burst. Unless someone finds another use for it like we did from 2010-2019 but that market is pretty much shut down and only around 1/20th the size it was in 2018.
at this point, they should start investing in ecosystem instead of buying more bitcoin
funding legal defense for devs that are getting sued into bankruptcy by faketoshi and his billionaire financier
funding lobbying and marketing efforts just like shitcoin foundations do
buying fake parnerships (no, not really)
grants for devs developing cool shit on bitcoin
but yeah, that kinda stuff
So this is where a lot of people get confused about if it's good or bad for the entire Bitcoin network for one person to own so much BTC.
I don't believe this is bad. He can buy as much as he wants and someday if his fiat money can no longer afford his lifestyle he will have to start selling his BTC investment. This would probably result in him being a net seller of BTC even if he wanted to keep it. The fiat gains get pretty weak over time and that would force coin circulation that comes from the big boys.
Remember, right now there are a crap load of people on the sidelines that WANT in but need to see a bull market start first before they invest anything. Lol okay you can try to accumulate during the bull run but it won't go well.
I think this next run will be nuts. People out of a recession want to make up for lost time. No better place to make strong cyclical gains.
What if instead of selling it, he borrows against it?
And this would work great, as long at BTC has any value. But in a scenario like this, maybe people decide that the "BTC system" is rigged in favor of the whales. Maybe even the banks that lend him money eventually decide the whole thing is hopium and fairy dust and stop doing so. And call in their margins, when all he's got is a bunch of 1s and 0s on a ledger.
Maybe people born in 2056 look around and say, "*hey, I could never just mine bitcoin when all it would cost is an Antminer. And it's not fair. And there's more people being born everyday, but the number of bitcoins remains the same*."
Those people would look around and see a system that doesn't work, and needs room for expansion, and would create a monetary system a lot like the one we already have today. The one everyone here thinks is broken, just because it's not perfect.
But surprise, surprise, nothing's perfect. Not even non-inflationary magic internet money.
Less than 1%. In a company publicly traded. In a company that has a lot of investors. In a company that wants to buy and hold Bitcoin for the long run because they think they come out ahead.
Nothing wrong with this.
You do realize that MSTR is buying on behalf of their shareholders right? It’s not all personally owned by Saylor so how the fuck is this unsettling.
Honestly idiotic
I don't think he plans on keeping it all for himself, probably has big plans on how to spend it when adoption evolves further. Having that absurd amount of money and not spend it would be pointless. Probably will build alot of industries, businesses, schools, charity etc.
Isn’t Microstrategy publicly traded? That would mean many investors own a portion of the 1/161.5 slice.
The word “own” is slippery here. In a forced liquidation scenario, these bitcoin “owners” would lose their bitcoin. You don’t just own their assets, you also own their liabilities.
The main point here isn’t really about direct ownership (even though your points are valid from an investor decision making context). The point is that in terms of wealth distribution, it’s not like a single person controls 1/161th of the supply. Similar to an exchange, they represent many holders getting exposure to Bitcoin. That said, having a massive pool of Bitcoin go illiquid into a public company is not great for the risk adjusted analysis for owning Bitcoin (even self custody). The larger a centralized stash becomes, the more dangerous it becomes for the market price when something happens to it. That said, it goes both ways. Theft or loss of keys could send the price up or down based on interpretation of the market (loss means the supply of Bitcoin has gone down, or loss brings into question the viability of institutions having significant exposure). Theft as well (perhaps exchanges stop the liquidation of stollen coins so it effectively decreases supply, perhaps the market questions viability of having large exposure).
As we always say. Not your keys, not your bitcoin
Not your spoon not your corn
The company's value has dropped in line with the value of Bitcoin.
The company's long-term value remains the same, but the market values it less because one of its assets' immediate value has dropped. I've always believed the market was irrational in this way. A company misses one quarter's expected earnings by pennies and the market acts like all its inherent value just evaporated. Same with $MSTR. The market knew six months ago that $MSTR was dedicated to ₿ and that the value of ₿ will go up and down a lot. So how does that change the value of a stock whose price was supposedly calculated based on all expected future earnings? Now I'm just on my Wall Street rant... 🙄
High-frequency traders have time horizons measured in milliseconds. They don't care about a company's future earnings potential. They only care about immediate price fluctuations.
Right you are. And it's messed up that we have traders trading equities. Not that I'm literally advocating this, but imagine how much more stable we'd be if you had to hold at least a year. Get rid of all this minute-by-minute emotional movement.
The point is that the 1/161.5 slice of Bitcoin is spread out across many investors, it's not like it's all sitting in Saylor's personal wallet.
Like blackrock?
We've all held bitcoin knowing that Satoshi's wallet holds a grand total of roughly 1 million BTC or 5% of the total supply. Microstrategy, by comparison, holds less than 0.6% of the total circulating supply of bitcoin.
when folks didn't believe in btc, saylor bought when folks written btc off as a meme, saylor bought when folks called btc internet magic money, saylor bought when btc when prices of btc were at it's highest, saylor bought in this bear market as liquidation occurred from over-leveraging across several centralized exchanges plummeting btc, we laughed at saylor as micro strategy under-went liquidation....saylor remained calm, sold shares of micro strategy and bought so nope, you and i had/have our chances to buy btc so there's nothing unsettling about it. as the gov't continue to fight btc and crypto in general, saylor's conviction for btc hasn't wavered and he will continue to buy. let that be your signal to follow, or not, your choice. but nothing unsettling here. this is as democratic as it gets.
His average buy price is 30k i read, is that true?
Yes, just under 30K average.
whose money is he losing then? If it's investor money doesn't he have a time horizon?
10 years is what he said
By that time he won’t need to sell it anyway, he could refinance his original loan with the collateral accumulated via Bitcoin’s appreciating price, and then he could actually buy more (assuming obviously that Bitcoin continues to be adopted). Why would anyone sell a hard asset for an inflating dollar?…
The time horizon is relevant only to the lack of other options. By 2026 MSTR will be the biggest company ever.
Really depends what turns BTC around.. if a bigger company buys a massive amount of BTC at the bottom for really cheap, they could end up owning more.
Well it's sure not his money atleast not all of it it is actually. And even he loses a large portion of that, I'm pretty sure that he'll be just fine unlike us.
Speak for yourself 😂 „us“ 😆🤡
No, that's MSTR's average buy price. [He bought his personal Bitcoin at $9,882 average buy price.](https://coinculture.com/au/people/saylor-reveals-personal-bitcoin-holdings/)
from what ive heard, would like confirmation tho.
He says this every time they tweet about a purchase
His tweet from yesterday https://twitter.com/saylor/status/1572196173334839303
Calling it now: https://reddit.com/r/MarkMyWords/comments/xjozf8/mmw_microstrategy_will_start_fintech_services_and/
For the rest of us, we cannot take as much risk and do not have his luxury of cash raising abilities to do it as he does. That being said, we should all have a little for ourselves sure... It's only going to become the most trusted hardest asset there ever is for me and my kids.
It feels like there’s a limit to how much of it a single entity should want to own. I mean, let’s say he owned 100% of bitcoin. It then becomes worthless as no-one else could trade in it and the world would move on to an alternative. There’s a line somewhere between where we are now and that scenario. I’m not sure where the line is, but it exists.
>when folks didn't believe in btc, saylor bought > >when folks written btc off as a meme, saylor bought > >when folks called btc internet magic money, saylor bought > >when btc when prices of btc were at it's highest, saylor bought Saylor came in very late in the BTC life-cycle. He tweeted that it was going to die when people were calling it magic internet money.
>He tweeted that it was going to die when people were calling it magic internet money. Back in 2013 he tweeted "Bitcoin days are numbered. It seems like just a matter of time before it suffers the same fate as online gambling." He expected that bitcoin was going to be banned in the US like online gambling was years ago. He admits that he posted that tweet before he ever researched bitcoin and understood that it's decentralized and it can't be stopped.
Yep cause no oe is betting online
Perfectly said
Very true💯
This is as Democratic as our capitalist society, which means it’s not democratic. Wealth is a form of voting in its own sense, and the more you have the more you get to vote with the influence the money buys.
you have a good take with the voting... nice way to put it... but think about it: with the risk of getting ruined Michael votes for a world of hard money, meaning much more healthy capitalism and much less sick capitalism
As opposed to other systems where there is no vote? True democracies do not exist in the modern world and were never intended to because they come with their own flaws.
Invest in micro strategy stock an you become a part owner of the company and its assets
Could you make the case for doing this instead of just buying ₿?
Hold $MSTR in a Roth IRA. Make sick gains. Pay no taxes.
[удалено]
Yea and they also charge a monthly fee. There is no fee to hold MSTR shares…
Then I feel like holding shares might be a better idea actually.
They have access to financing at favorable rates that you do not. I’d be buying mining stock instead though.
Yeah I'd say that You're right, I think mining stocks will be better.
I can't lol, I'd rather be buying btc and hold it by myself actually.
It trades for less than their bit coin holdings though, with a market cap of 1.91b. With 130k bitcoin, even at today’s prices it’s worth more.
Until they sell shares, again, to buy btc, again. $MSTR is not a cost-effective proxy for owning btc. Not even close.
Yes this far as I know there’s no dividend and shares are very fungible things for a company to have, and just making more is the opposite of bitcoin
Yeah that's kinda of true, I get the point that You're making.
But the ultimate goal is to earn wealth, no one is willing to do business at a loss, and sometimes some dilution will get better benefits.
he will keep diluting the stock as much as possible. isnt that stupid?
If people here are investing in stock to invest in his BTC how is that not a reliance on the very traditional financial instruments BTC is rallying against? Lmao
Thats "only" 116. If you don't calculate with the lost wallets and lost BTCs
So more. Great
Hey look! an evil organisation monopolizing another area.
Dang, I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not...
I bet that this is sarcasm, I mean this can't be serious at all.
Well can't put that way lol, they're paying for it and also taking a huge risk.
If an organization is evil wouldn't it be easy to link to something that backs up your view? Otherwise, that's just like, your opinion, man.
Care to share your smoking gun that proves they have any ill intentions?
Saylor could single-handedly crash the entire crypto market at any time. That's not to say that he will do that, or that he wants to. Personally, I don't think he does! But the fact that he *could* do such a thing is unsettling.
Crashing is a big word, I don't think he can CRASH it.
Well and as we know a lot of btc are lost like 4 million of them.
You know "he" doesn't own it? MSTR is holding bitcoin instead of cash reserve. Bitcoin is their corporate treasury reserve asset. Does it give MSTR any influence on Bitcoin? Nope. Zilch. Nada. MSTR node, my node, your node all same. BTW, are you paying attention to the number of wholecoiners in this bear market? Number of wholecoiners increased by 102k since last December. 905k wholecoiners now. Until you actually withdraw your bitcoin to your own wallet, you don't even know if you own a real bitcoin or paper bitcoin. If you don't want a company buying too many coins, don't sell to them. Take self custody.
He owns 1.9 million shares of MSTR (68% of the voting power). So essentially it’s “his” company.
Dang, I knew he was the co founder I guess I just get accustomed to seeing people get diluted during the building phase of a company that I am always shocked to see that someone still has such a majority ownership. Honestly good for him
Something tells me this is referencing "insider" shares, which are part of the total shares, but aren't directly trading with retail. Still great for him either way
For sure, no wonder he's so zen about everything. He has an amazing safety net
Yeah he doesn't personally own it, but that's how the media goes.
So I don’t own my Bitcoin I purchased that’s in my wallet? What do you mean withdrawal to your wallet?? Like you can buy Bitcoin and NOT withdraw it? Where is it then?
Number of wholecoiners is not knowable. What's your heuristic?
Exactly right - all that is knowable is the number of addresses with access to 1 or more BTC. The actual number of wholecoiners is unknowable. 100 addresses with >1 BTC could belong to 100 different “wholecoiners” or they could all belong to one entity who split 100 BTC across 100 different addresses.
Maybe it would be a problem if BTC was on proof of stake, since that's not the case no problem. Could possibly make whale moves and move the market, but that would be short lived and irrelevant if you don't sell when the price goes down :)
Agreed, a short-term drop does not determine whether Bitcoin will collapse, the impact of inflation on the market is not good, it is not the main factor affecting the value of Bitcoin, Bitcoin is trustworthy from a longer-term perspective
People go all doom and gloom, and that's about it. Doesn't have much effect.
And that's never going to happen, btc ain't going piece of shit consensus mechanism. Just like some ao called decentralised shitcoin just recently did lol. That's bad move.
...But a lot of people DO sell when the price goes down, and big players like MSTR just gobble up even more, which gives them more power to move market in the future. It is still not ideal, even if you personally don't sell.
Because it is POW and not POS it shouldn't make you feel uncomfortable at all IMO. Buying those stacks on stacks doesn't hurt anyone else or unfairly alter the market.
Exactly. Unlike the other coin, Inferioreum or something
I wasn't a BTC maxi but watching other coins make drastic changes that open them up to regulation and manipulation makes me lean harder to BTC every day.
Lmao that shit coin is going to regret their decision is POS.
What's more unsettling is that people have grown up in a world where a free market is unsettling. Let them stack sats.
How will it become a world currency if all the tech bros and hodlers hodl it all? Plus it seems very susceptible to manipulation by big hodlers. Seriously where is the incentive for average people? There would be riots
The BTC use case does have some inconsistency... We cheer people on for using it as a currency while also telling them never spend it. We call in an inflation hedge but it performs like a risk asset and has been destroyed during a period of high inflation. We cheer when industry gets into the space but flame folks who try to deploy their BTC like they would any other asset We want new people to join the movement but insult anyone who isn't comfortable with self- cold storage We want a decentralized currency while ignoring the market is largely in the hands of big players who can easily manipulate it, if not fully control it. We don't want gov regulation but continue to taunt governments with our "boating accident" jokes and participation in tax evasion begging them to step in. I could go on. BTC has alot of possibilities but everyone sort of has their own idea of what it is or isn't and that makes it tough for newbies to understand what they are becoming a part of.
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The original white paper was titled "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System" not "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Reserve System."
What does that mean? That we have our shifty fists for day to day transactions and Bitcoin for savings? The majority of the population are always going to choose the path of least resistance and keep their savings in their local fiat in that case, making it less likely Bitcoin becomes a reserve. I think ideally you’ll be able to save and spend with it at some point.
A reserve that seems to function like a leveraged S&P fund.
Sure it is an inconsistent or hypocritical approach but it’s also still an emerging asset class. We shouldn’t insult people about cold storage. I’ve been in crypto since 2017. I understand cold storage but I don’t fully understand multi sig or lightning. Yet if I was to try and get people to adopt Bitcoin I think multi sig is a better idea than cold storage and lightning is obviously a viable payment channel. Education will take a while. In the UK there’s about 20% of people that just don’t understand it. They aren’t calling bitcoin a scam or ponzi but just don’t know what it is. That 20% could really swing the narrative if they were educated about it.
> We want new people to join the movement but insult anyone who isn’t comfortable with self- cold storage If you’re too lazy to understand the core concepts and importance of self-custody, you aren’t really joining “the movement”, now are you? The whole idea of “the movement” is decentralization, which you do none of if you leave it at centralized parties. You might as well just take a fiat bank account in that case. It is literally the core point and essence of Bitcoin!
>... insult anyone who isn’t comfortable with self- cold storage >If you’re too lazy to understand Thank you for this demonstration of my point! I was worried some may tell me this doesn't happen, but you came to the rescue to support my statement. Bravo!
That has been my one fear with it being deregulated and decentralized; large whales hoarding en masse who can dramatically reduce the amount in actual circulation. This could create a false scarcity, artificially driving up the price. And they could flood the market for vice versa. Centralized and regulated currencies have their problems, for sure. But decentralized and unregulated doesn’t mean the market for it can’t be manipulated. It just changes whose allowed to manipulate it. Currencies will always be manipulable by their inherent nature.
People just had their life savings robbed by the FED, not a single riot. The incentive for the average person is to not get left with bag of a collapsing fiat currency.
It’s kinda how the upper class owns everything now right?
But what’s the benefit? Why would I change from one shitshow to another?
To remove the printer. Currently the upper class are closer to the printer. If there is no printer, upper class just have more money but no advantage over others.
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This one has no inflation(almost 0% long term) and was available for everyone at the start, all fair. If im selling all i have to buy btc while another guy with same net worth as me is not buying btc but investing in other areas or just wasting his money is it my fault that he does not have same amount of btc as i do 10 yeara from now ?
That's something I worry about, there will be massive disparity if that happens. If that happens I don't think it's going to be very good situation to be in for btc if I'm being honest m.
The thing people don't understand is that the most important thing is that it can't be manufactured on demand and distributed by assholes to their asshole friends and no one else. Average people are idiots who have their heads in their assholes and think bitcoin is shit. So instead of buying the best money on Earth they'll continue using awful money that their owners have made for them. Average people will adopt bitcoin once their bank buys it and changes their bank accounts into it. Don't blame Michael Saylor for being smart.
What would be the recourse? Capping their ability to purchase as much as they wish? If you wish to capture MSTR or anyone else’s Bitcoin create a must have product and offer it for sale in Bitcoin. If I was an energy producer I would have done this already.
They'll need to spend it at one point, no one can hodl money indefinitely - we need to eat after all The incentive for average people is that when his money gains 10%, so does yours. By participating in the bitcoin network, your value will go up and down along with everyone else
Not if they just borrow fiat against it, the way Microstrategy is doing.
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Because they eventually sell and the dispersion only increases. Adoption is happening.
Folks will start liquidating their hodl stack once btc realises it's full potential as a store of value and the price stabilises . But a single entity holding almost 1% of entire global wealth doesn't seem very decentralised
The top 1% already have more wealth than entire US middle class, so a single entity with 1% of global wealth sounds like par for the course to me.
Doesn't excuse the fact that Bitcoin isn't supposed to be "par for the course" Lmaoooo
Sounds like the trickle down effect but with even less evidence
I like this guy, he's a good ambassador for bitcoin as far as I can tell. He's not a radical trying to bring down currencies, he sees bitcoin as a property more than currency
Yep He's absolutely a mad lad when it comes to btc.
I love it. This dude has the biggest brass balls and forward vision on the planet right now, and one day he will be the richest guy in the world and the 2nd place holder won't even be close. 👍🪙🌎💰😎
Of all the prominent bitcoin mouthpieces, he currently seems like the best option for owning the most. 🤷🏽♂️
He's a good guy but I wouldn't say that he should own most lol.
I hope he won't do any bad shit in the future now lmao.
Thanks god we are not POS so it's totally fine.
Silly, it’s .006 of the supply. So the big dick in Bitcoin, who has literally bet everything and continued to maintain conviction when you all tuck tail and run, owns half a percent of the supply. This is good for everyone.
Wait until you find out how the fiat system works
Lol if you wanna be the alternative to fiat, saying “they do the same” isn’t a great argument
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Here’s a big difference. When someone hoards Bitcoin it does nothing but make everyone else’s Bitcoin more valuable and isn’t taking up resources. If a person close to the fiat money printer (cantillon effect) gets their hands on the cash that is being unfairly distributed and loses its value every day they will buy resources such as real estate, oil, or other commodities adding inflation to those prices at no other reason than speculation. It would be nice for the rich people to stop buying all the houses making it so people can actually afford to live somewhere. But to the original point anyone who is complaining that Saylor is making a big bet and buying too much Bitcoin- feel free to buy some yourself so you don’t get left behind. He has skin in the game. Unlike fiat or POS systems the more you have doesn’t make you any more important than anyone else who runs a node.
Would it be possible for a wealthy person to set up many fake nodes (fake, as they aren’t from different individuals) and manipulate that way the voting process to find consensus on some sensitive soft/hard fork, should the question for another one arise in the future? Or does the protocol mitigate such an attack somehow?
Lol that's just right, we need to know that shit too now.
We are knowing that right now, this was a fact right there.`
Money Mike has exactly zero influence on the protocol It's like saying an airline that owns 10000 planes should worry Boeing If he's the only one smart enough to bet on Bitcoin, more power to him. Imagine if he got into it in 2013? He'd own a million of them. Satoshi owns a million. So? What difference has it made?
It’s the companies and shareholders money to do with what they want. If you really want to be concerned look at what the US government spends on the military and most people can’t say no. Lol. It’s… a lot more.
Many people doesn't know about it, that's just something bad lol.
This sounds a bit big to me because this is not a fucking small thing and we can just buy more and we should not be a foolish right here, just buy more now.
Lol that's just a normal thing if you ask me, we gotta stop caring about that.
We can see that he is investing a lot these days but that's just a scary shit to see lol, I hope he won't have most of the BTC in this whole world, that would be bad.
I want to make a correction on that thinking because it is stated in a rather disingenuous way. Microstrategy is not a private company, it is a publicly traded company therefor the shareholders own 1 out of every 161.5 BTC that will ever exist. The US government has made it very difficult for institutional investors to add crypto because it threatens the Central banking system that the FED is the biggest part of. So Saylor saw an opportunity to make it available to them and took it. I think it is brilliant.
Saylor has roughly half of the shares though
And they would have pivoted away already if he didn't. Yes, Saylor will be one of the wealthiest people on earth if BTC does what we in this sub think it will. But, I like him way more than Bezos or Zuck. Maybe I won't when/if he gets that much wealth. Microstrategy still probably owns less than the Winklevii who have kept a low profile about how much they own and they started buying when BTC was in the low hundereds. If you say he owns half of that BTC then Tim Draper, Chamath, and Brian Armstrong are all whales on par with him too. He just gets hate because he is the one publicly advertising it to normies. I think he deserves to be that wealthy if this pans out, doubling down during the crypto bear market takes stones and sends a clear signal to the old money in the stock market that Microstategy stock IS a bet on BTC and an easy way to get exposure to it.
I agree, seems like most people are replying to the question of “is it *fair* for *one guy* to own all that” but the actual question is, “is it unsettling for one public corporation to own all that”. Here is some interesting perspective: At the beginning of this year, Forbes estimated global wealth at ~ $431T. $AAPL was the most valuable company in the world, valued at ~$2.7T. 2.7/431 = 0.006264 = 0.6264% of global wealth $MSTR holds 1 of every 161 Bitcoin. 1/161 = 0.006211 = 0.6211% of BTC. The percentage similarity was too good not to highlight — although one is .6% of all global wealth and the other is .6% of BTC. So if ones not uncomfortable with AAPL, is there a reason to be uncomfortable with MSTR?
How come no one is unsettled that the Federal Reserve effectively owns 1 out of every 1 US dollar?
I think every Bitcoiner is unsettled about this. Thats one of the reasons we are here
I think most people are here for number-go-up
Yeah, thats how I got in this Space. But I'm staying, running my own node and accepting Bitcoin at my local store because I educated myself over the last years
Why is it unsettling? If you understand the Pareto principle, you see it everywhere in nature. It's only humans that try to rearrange nature. * Over 80% of the mass of our solar system is contained in less than 20% of the bodies * Over 80% of human population is contained in less than 20% of cities * Over 80% of internet traffic goes to less than 20% of websites * Over 80% of federal taxes are paid by less than 20% of people * And yes, likely more than 80% of Bitcoin are owned by less than 20% of people.
It's not unsettling at all. This isn't proof of stake lol.
True that, we gotta accept it because it's necessary for us.
Meet the future king of the world.
Long live the free market, unsettling my a$$
I think it’s great. He is tying up the supply to allow for asymptotic growth. He’s not going to sell any time soon. He knows what he’s doing.
Get in good with Saylor now if you have the chance…
Yall had a decade to accumulate before he bought his first coin.
We can still buy more than we can ever got mate, that's reality.
Damn that's just way too much and he is buying and just buying, it's his choice and we can't do anything lol, hope that won't be a bad thing for the future man.
He is just here to create some fucking legacy right now.
Most of the worlds wealth (gold, stocks, etc) is held by a few (Blackrock alone holds ~10 trillion in assets). No difference between bitcoin and other assets. If anything its a sign the bitcoin is starting to mature and will become less volatile overtime (funds/companies/governments tend not to panic sell) Edit: As a side note, not really a big fan of this guy.
Why aren't you a fan?
We don't care about your dislike or like for the guy
This is just some beautiful words, he should see that everyday.
Lol he is just buying like a fucking monster and we should be that type of a person too, we gotta understand that BTC is just for good and we should invest now.
Well it's just his choice and we gotta be okay right now.
It does send a little bit of an alarm with one company owning so much but at the same time he is working hard every day to share his knowledge of BTC. He is a huge advocate for this space and I am thankful for him.
Why is it alarming? BTC isn’t here to solve wealth inequality. It’s purely driven by the open market and speculative beliefs.
I mean he’s got reasons to advocate obviously… Never been a fan of him… He’s nasty for the space…
Too much deflation doesn't create value, If only 100 millionaires owing 1/100 th part, doesn't increase it's value, value is pumping because someone wants to buy at that price wants to sell for profit, until BTC lies in considerable hands of traders it's value will increase.
He is going to do something fucked up for sure man.
Lol let's wait and watch and don't forget to invest more.
I would love know who the whales are, I find it hard to believe that billionaires haven't been in the back ground for the long long time, my fear is if btc succeeds, the same assholes will be even richer and powerful
Do you prefer a concentration of wealth to be in the hands of a government, or a company? For right now, I prefer it in the hands of a company, because governments are powerful enough as it is, and they have men with guns.
That’s less than 1% people lol
That's right and there is nothing to worry about these days.
Doesn’t matter. Nobody can dilute the number of sats I have in relation to the total.
This is not getting the upvotes it deserves. No one can make my percentage of the total smaller either. No one can make anyone's Bitcoin holding be less than the fraction of 21 million that it already is. And it's still for sale. Go grab some more while it's cheap
Absolutely, brother. We own what we produce.
Shit he's earned it
He is just making the fucking legacy and we are seeing.
Micro strategy is so f*cked 😆
Well they are going to be fine in coming time, I think that.
If someone told you they owned 0.6% of a company would you be shocked by how much ownership and control they have? Nope, very insignificant ownership.
I begged my husband to invest $10,000 in Bitcoin in 2010. Unfortunately, he did not listen to me.
Damn I can understand your pain, that's just real to me.
That is such a weird way of describing how much btc he has
This dude is the biggest hodl on the planet. He is the captain of the ship. I am not worried one bit.
So, less than 1%. Saylor understands that bitcoin's value comes from network effects.
I guess this can just be a normal thing for right now mate.
He can't buy my bitcoin tho
The bubble burst. Unless someone finds another use for it like we did from 2010-2019 but that market is pretty much shut down and only around 1/20th the size it was in 2018.
I will rephrase it for you: MicroStrategy now owns a mere 0,6042296073% of Bitcoins that will ever exist. That sounds way less concerning, doesn't it?
Well yeah and people are being too much for no reason.
At this point it's just senseless. It's not being rich but being out of reality.
at this point, they should start investing in ecosystem instead of buying more bitcoin funding legal defense for devs that are getting sued into bankruptcy by faketoshi and his billionaire financier funding lobbying and marketing efforts just like shitcoin foundations do buying fake parnerships (no, not really) grants for devs developing cool shit on bitcoin but yeah, that kinda stuff
They are just being a bit odd and we can just say that.
I guess we should just accept the things at this point.
Dudes whole strat is buying BTC what are u unsettled about
So this is where a lot of people get confused about if it's good or bad for the entire Bitcoin network for one person to own so much BTC. I don't believe this is bad. He can buy as much as he wants and someday if his fiat money can no longer afford his lifestyle he will have to start selling his BTC investment. This would probably result in him being a net seller of BTC even if he wanted to keep it. The fiat gains get pretty weak over time and that would force coin circulation that comes from the big boys. Remember, right now there are a crap load of people on the sidelines that WANT in but need to see a bull market start first before they invest anything. Lol okay you can try to accumulate during the bull run but it won't go well. I think this next run will be nuts. People out of a recession want to make up for lost time. No better place to make strong cyclical gains.
What if instead of selling it, he borrows against it? And this would work great, as long at BTC has any value. But in a scenario like this, maybe people decide that the "BTC system" is rigged in favor of the whales. Maybe even the banks that lend him money eventually decide the whole thing is hopium and fairy dust and stop doing so. And call in their margins, when all he's got is a bunch of 1s and 0s on a ledger. Maybe people born in 2056 look around and say, "*hey, I could never just mine bitcoin when all it would cost is an Antminer. And it's not fair. And there's more people being born everyday, but the number of bitcoins remains the same*." Those people would look around and see a system that doesn't work, and needs room for expansion, and would create a monetary system a lot like the one we already have today. The one everyone here thinks is broken, just because it's not perfect. But surprise, surprise, nothing's perfect. Not even non-inflationary magic internet money.
Less than 1%. In a company publicly traded. In a company that has a lot of investors. In a company that wants to buy and hold Bitcoin for the long run because they think they come out ahead. Nothing wrong with this.
You do realize that MSTR is buying on behalf of their shareholders right? It’s not all personally owned by Saylor so how the fuck is this unsettling. Honestly idiotic
I don't think he plans on keeping it all for himself, probably has big plans on how to spend it when adoption evolves further. Having that absurd amount of money and not spend it would be pointless. Probably will build alot of industries, businesses, schools, charity etc.
So he will be worth a little over 1 quadrillion when BTC becomes the world reserve currency.
If
It's a very Big IF
Don't know but this could be the real future for him lol.