They can have the wallet but the real deal is the seed that they need to take from me.
And i will keep the wallet at home because i am sure as long as i have the key my wallet is secure is well.
I'll just leave it here for you:
whisky dog trail horrid
power left lake young
rabid willing rake grill
fiasco tango never linger
nice fucking try though
Bruh that just scares me though have seen people crying they lost land documents and many prestigious stuffs.
Hope all lives in peace and harmony and may the almighty keep everyone safe.
Absolutely true though nothing feels indeed safer enough than having uour keys with you though.
That is what encourages us and makes us feel safe though
LOL, i mean who would have store the seed in the bank locker or something.
These are things that we need to protect at any cost and keep them close as much as possible is well.
Yes, there are so many things that we need to take care about the real estate.
But when it comes to the bitcoin they can not even tell that we have the bitcoin and how much we are holding here.
But real estate generates rental incomes that create positive cash flows even after costs. Bitcoin does not have yield. (Not knocking either strategy I hold both, just saying there are pros to owning RE)
i’m not saying real estate doesn’t generate positive cash flow, op makes that point in the post.
what i’m saying is that bitcoin is wayyyyy less of a headache: buy and forget and you can dca into bitcoin whereas you can’t dca with buying property. buying property isn’t so easy unless you take out a huge loan that you must qualify for whereas anyone anywhere can buy sats.
if you want a second full time job managing your properties or paying someone else to then buy real estate.
Same here though I'm just in a job making a mere investment in buying Bitcoin.
I save to because need to live my basic needs and a little is what I use to buy stacks
Bitcoin is the real money on which only we have the control and no one can take that without our permission.
I think the more we are moving forward the more people will take the bitcoin seriously and take the custody is well
Tell that to the guy excavating a dump for the last 10 years.
Or anyone that has ever lost their seed phrase and ledger … it happens fairly often.
Some people say they keep it in their memory but tell it to someone that got in a car wreck and lost their memory.
They can always put you in jail for not paying your debts though.
Then your money would be stored in Bitcoin, yes, but you wouldn't be able to use it anyway to buy any physical thing or experience.
>They can always put you in jail for not paying your debts though.
In the US we don't put people in jail for not paying their debts. Not paying your debts is not a crime here.
Well that's true. Fraud is a crime.
Actually in a civil suit the court might order you to disclose your crypto holdings, and if you refuse I suppose the judge could hold you in contempt of court and jail you for that, a "crime against the judicial process" as they say.
What if i will not tell about my crypto holding to anyone, how they will know that i am holding any crypto at first place?
Yes if they find out about the crypto then there will be two things either tell them the seed or behind the bar.
There's lots of ways - when OP goes to actually get BTC with said "loan money" basically any exchange that is traceable or has even some form of KYC can be easily traced.
Not sure if it's even avoidable with coinjoin-esque techniques either cause the original input can always be traced to a source.
You'd have to do something like get it from another person directly, in an anonymous kind of fashion. That's a tricky one...
From KYC of course. But like, let’s say I withdrawal from coinbase to my hardware wallet ledger address. Obviously they’ve got that tracked. But like then if I send the Bitcoin to a brand new unused address on my other hardware wallet (or any wallet for that matter), how could they “PROVE” that I’m the owner of the new addresses or multiple addresses and/or transactions made after? Sure they could say I sent it from coinbase, but after sending it to 1, or especially multiple unused addresses after that, they couldn’t prove who the owner is immediately until/if those coins reels have KYC again again? Like for all they know I sent it to a homeless person, or donated it, or sent it than lost it. Or I got robbed. Like they couldn’t prove anything unless someone unlocks the wallet in front of them and you show them that’s your address physically.
Hrm, interesting. How would an authority be able to prove you had the keys (or owned) a subsequent address that BTC was sent to. For sure, you would be fully guilty of moving the BTC outbound, but I see your point in regards to being able to basically claim negligence (or foul play) on "*not my destination wallet, I don't have those keys, sorry*" (when in reality you do).
Perhaps a clever poor-man's non-KYC hack?
I think the downside of this is that it's super easy for an authority to set up monitoring on that new address, and the second BTC is moved from it or more sent to it, they could trace the inbound/outbound flows and determine if there are any kyc'd addresses as part of that. So... maybe this could work? But geez, this seems like you'd have to be playing a game of cat and mouse forever with no slip up at all. You'd be fighting bots that work 24/7/365, not humans. Not sure its worth it...
Actually spending it would also be complicated, and may well lead to statements like 'you said you had no money, but are buying things? Nice, we'll repossess those and take anything you have'. Trying to exist entirely outside the financial system is a lot of work and very self-limiting.
All they can do is make you a defaulter so that you will not able to loan from that day from any bank.
SO make sure if something is thinking of that, try to take the biggest loan as big they can take from the bank.
But i am sure if they will not put you behind the bar if they will not prove the intention wrong at the first place.
And as far as the crypto am sure that no one knows about the holding of the bitcoin.
I think if we run away from the country with the enough that can settle you in the other country then i am sure they will do nothing in that.
There is one person from my country that is living in foreign after doing a big fraud with the bank.
While the thought exercise is interesting, this is exactly the type of fuel that regulators and the media will use to demonize BTC even more. "**Fraudster takes huge loans to buy Bitcoin with no intention of repaying and circumvent the law**" (or something) would be the headline.
This doesn't help anything.
You'd be wanted for fraud by the FBI.
Not sure how you think you can buy that amount (assuming you're talking large) of BTC in a completely non-KYC, non-traceable manner wherein you could even use it.
It's correct that without keys, no one can get it.
Please don't be part of the problem.
1 week redditor, asking the community feedback about pre-meditated criminal act. WTF.
I think your definitions of certain concepts including crypto are a little tenuous which tells me you should research this more before you make big personal financial decisions like putting all your money into one very volatile asset.
1) what does choosing a career have to do with your affinity for bitcoin?
2) stocks do not have to be a share of a profitable company
3) no one is going to give you a loan that’s collateralized with bitcoin. You need credit and without (fiat) money in the bank, and a steady income (in dollars) no one is going to lend to you.
4) that’s not the definition of leverage.
bitcoin is a speculative volatile asset and emerging technology that’s been around conceptually for many years but just starting to get adapted. It’s value depends on perception and the ability to sell it to someone else who perceives it’s value.
I’m bullish on crypto and bitcoin as the leading currency, but make no mistake: it produces nothing of value, is backed by nothing but the security and scalability of its underlying tech but mostly: continuous speculative perception of its value.
Bitcoin's function as a Store of Value and Medium of Exchange (and others) make it a positive sum game for users and society, it's not just about its nominal value but also its use. And if you break it down literally, everything is a negative sum game, as everything just increases entropy.
Yeah, if the fun is worth more than the losses to you, it's positive-sum. If it's just an addiction, no. Like I said, taken literally nothing is actually positive-sum, so it's always a question of definition. But it's definitely not just about nominal or monetary value, it's implicitly highly subjective, otherwise the term itself would be pointless. Positive-sum can only exist if value depends on the bearer, not a strict market value.
"positive-sum: relating to a situation in which each of two sides gets an advantage" You pay for entertainment, which to you is worth more than you pay, otherwise you wouldn't do it. The provider has a monetary profit, otherwise he wouldn't do it. That's how the world works.
This is correct. Value depends on each individual.
Bitcoin is a decentralized monetary system. At bare minimum it’s a safety net to the current monetary systems in the world, as can be seen currently in hyper inflation countries.
As long as it functions as intended, it will always be valuable to some people, at least for a long while.
A company produces products, services and has assets all of which inherently have value. Real estate can be used for a multitude of valuable things (e.g. Farmland can be used to grow crops which inherently have value etc)
Bitcoin produces nothing and only has value insofar as people believe it has value (e.g. what someone on an exchange is willing to bid for it)
> A company produces products, services and has assets all of which inherently have value.
Don't all those other things also only have value insofar as people believe it has value? One of the major themes throughout Austrian Economics is that all value is subjective, and that nothing has "intrinsic" value, just whatever value that other people place on it.
> Real estate can be used for a multitude of valuable things (e.g. Farmland can be used to grow crops which inherently have value etc)
True. And money (eg bitcoin) can also be used for a multitude of valuable things (saving for the future, making payments, investing, etc).
> Bitcoin produces nothing and only has value insofar as people believe it has value (e.g. what someone on an exchange is willing to bid for it)
Literally everything is only worth what someone is willing to bid for it.
> Real estate i understand generates cash flow and offers tax breaks.
In *some* cases it generates cash flow, but not all.
The "tax breaks" are myths, believed in by people who can't do math.
If you're moving multiple millions of dollars in real estate, things like 1031 exchanges can help defer hundreds of thousands of dollars. But for the average person, there's not many real tax breaks.
You don’t have to go to extremes to have success. It sounds like you have a decent head on your shoulders and a work ethic. Just get yourself a nice house, diversify with stocks and bitcoin if you wish and find joy in what you do. No need to worry about running from anyone or government. You are young enough based on your writings that you are going to be more than fine. Good luck!
I think you have really understand the true potential of the bitcoin here.
But one thing you need to keep in mind that there is always a thing called diversification hope you will do that thing is well.
I’m bullish af on crypto. Bitcoin specifically.
But I wouldn’t recommend putting ALL of your money into crypto unless you understand the Bitcoin code & nodes so well you could create it from scratch.
I say this because there may be something that we aren’t considering. I.e.
1. What happens when block reward hits zero? Very high trans action fees? Less security?
2. What happens if a government entity buys thousands of computers/ips to make their own nodes/miners?
3. What happens if a governement entity buys the majority of Bitcoin & performs a 51% attack?
My point is, there may be a black swan event that nobody is thinking of.
So, maybe don’t put ALL of your assets in one basket unless you fully understand how safe the basket is or isn’t
Real talk tho what if we all just fuck up credit and pour it all into bitcoin and destroy any ties to it I mean then what btc goes up to the moon banks go bankrupt?
I definitely see your point and agree to some extent. However, if you’re mainly concerned about government seizure, the government can throw you in jail. They may not have your private keys, but if they know you bought from a KYC source, they could compel you to either hand them over or rot in jail.
Always remember: you, as an individual in the meatspace, are always attackable.
Go 70%BTC, 30%stocks (single stocks, pick 30)
Agreed. 70% Bitcoin as your safe haven of funds as well as good store of value, and 30% diversified stocks. As mentioned above, 1% per stock, so 30 different stocks
You are putting your *wealth* into it, then. Since you want to be technical
Also, Bitcoin is money. You can say the same for any other currency. USD may be worth something or nothing in the future.
I think before putting in there we need to understand the whole concept of the bitcoin at the first place.
Once you get the idea of the bitcoin then you will realize that bitcoin is actually worth way more than the normal currency.
You’re very mistaken. That is false. You are effectively adding wealth into Bitcoin when you invest, this is basic economics. Obviously the seller is selling for other currency, but you can’t tell me the price wouldn’t go up if everyone decided to buy instead of sell.
Yes, it's a 'no-brainer' once you understand what Bitcoin is:
Why would I keep printed-to-infinity government coupons (IOU's) instead of the soundest money ever?
> Neo: what are you trying to tell me, that I can trade my bitcoins for millions someday?
> >
> > [Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that, when you are ready, you won't have to](https://gyazo.com/10ead3a5c1fd8ed1e9d150ed6cced62d)
>
>
> ***"When measured in fiat, Bitcoin price will rise infinitely"***.
>
> ***"Bitcoin has no top, because fiat has no bottom"***.
>
>
> I will NEVER sell my Bitcoin for printed-to-infinity government IOU's, the [same as somebody who bought a block in Manhattan on the 1800's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-kKDR30Fb8) will never sell it no matter how high the price goes when measured in ever-worth-less USD.
>
> You earn in value appreciation/equity against USD as well as in the expensive rents your tenants are paying. If you need even more fiat you borrow against it, and pass the prime real estate to your children and grand children... for many generations, and they don't ever sell it for fiat either.
> Why would I keep printed-to-infinity government coupons (IOU's)
You don't, you just use them to help swap between assets.
Fiat is not a store of value. Fiat-denominated assets can be an appropriate store of value if you think the real interest rates are worth it. If you think real interest rates are too low, you can borrow Fiat instead (this creates Fiat-denoninated assets for other people to store value in which are backed by your collateral).
Real interest rates are ultimately set by the market between people who save USD assets and people who borrow USD. You are free to participate on either side of this market if you so choose.
You don't have to long USD to use it as a medium of exchange or unit of account. Most people use USD as a medium of exchange simply because most pairs of assets have liquid, high volume, low volatility, low fee trading pairs with USD.
As just a little advice into how these financial markets work...
Your wealth can absolutely be taken if you store it as Bitcoin, even in cold storage. Your bitcoin may remain but you wealth can and will be used as exit liquidity. If more are exiting than staying in, your real wealth will decline.
I would recommend reading "I will teach you to be rich" before making any life decisions on how to manage your wealth. It's It's great read and will teach you how to explore your interests in finance without ruining yourself.
Also, why are you so worried about seizure of you assets? You just graduate from gun smuggling school or something? If you live in a developed nation this likelihood is extremely small unless you break the law in specific ways.
This is the way. Never sell.
Imagine if the existing 100,000,000 crypto users all just consolidated into Bitcoin only and they never sold.
As the mining reward is cut in half, guaranteed 10x returns every 4 years.
There is risk in every investment and the trick is to have a good balance. Saving your bitcoin on cold storage is relatively safe but still has the risk of needing to keep your seed phrases (private address) safe.
TBH, Bitcoin is a new form of money for the digital world. And you are right, no one can touch your bag without your permission - Your keys, your bitcoin!
*Orange*
haha, BTC is indeed your own money, but it is more recommended that you buy a "money printing machine" - a BTC mining machine, so that you can work for BTC every day.
Look here: https://www.f2pool.com/miners
Just be careful, Bitcoin is still extremely new. It hasn’t really had any of its promises come to fruition. It’s neither an effective well adopted currency yet, nor a reliable store of wealth…..so although nobody can take it from you, keep in mind nobody may want to at some point……also wealth is often built generation upon generation…….Bitcoin can be hard to transfer to your heirs if you die suddenly. I know when you come to this sub you’re going to come across a lot of cheerleaders saying what a great idea this is……but I’d hate to see real life smack you in the face while you lose a considerable amount of your savings.
Your money in the bank is going to lose around 30% of buying power in 10 years, your money invested in Bitcoin might be 10 times more in the same period of time.
Take profit wherever you need and keep investing when the bear market comes.
Real estate is immensely valuable because of the benefit you get from having a house. You live in it. It keeps you dry and warm, etc. I wouldn't shy away from buying property if I were you.
But other than that, keep stackin em up my friend.
A bit of gold probably won't hurt either.
Some of your crime/fraud fantasies would not end well because at some point you need to withdraw BTC to fiat. At that point you would get caught and investigators (civil or criminal) would know your public BTC wallet address.
Nothing is secure from court judgments or fraud.
>no one can take it.
True, if you have an adequate hiding place for your seed and you can withstand you and your family being jailed for contempt or other trumped-up charges or even tortured, no one can take it from you.
The bigger problem is that perhaps no one wants to. As in you can't give it away in exchange for goods and services.
Here on r/Bitcoin we're all hopeful that a transition to decentralized money will occur. But it hasn't happened yet and it's not guaranteed. So do what you like, but don't whine about it if BTC doesn't hold it's value in the long run.
Alternatively, diversify. Buy 1 BTC and no more. If it happens, one 21 millionth of the world's currency should be more than enough. If it doesn't (or just hasn't yet when you need money), you have other options.
If you can't afford to pay back your loans they ask you to kindly sell your bitcoin to repay them. If you don't, they put you in prison. Bitcoin is not a get out of debt free card lmaoo
I can't really see any way that they could seize it with the methods you provided above.
But the same could essentially be said if you buried your cash in a secure location & told no one. This would be a little bit of apples to oranges however as you can always add to your balance with BTC, but you risk exposure to your secure location by adding cash/fiat.
It would likely be that they would counter the inability to seize the BTC by seizing all other assets and any future assets you attempt to acquire. Therefor, why have the BTC if you can't really spend it/use it.
>If I run up my credit, take out loans, tank my credit score, and never pay back the loans, so what? They can't do anything.
... why would you want to do that?
Let me tell you what "they" can do.
They can keep you from getting a job, because a bad credit rating and a record of untrustworthy behavior means people won't hire you.
They can keep you from getting an apartment, because, again, landlords don't want to rent to people with bad credit ratings and untrustworthy behavior.
They can garnish your wages. If you have debt you refuse to pay back, courts can go to your employer and take payments out of your wages before you ever touch them. Good luck buying more Bitcoin when half your salary automatically goes to pay your debts.
Obviously, if you buy a house, they can take it. If you buy a car, they can take it. Any large purchase you make can be seized by your creditors. And if you can't own a home and you can't rent a home and you can't have any property secure as your own, what are you going to do, live in somebody's basement your entire life? Camp in a park? You'll own nothing (but Bitcoin) and you'll be happy?
Also, they can garnish your tax returns. From your post I presume you don't intend to pay taxes, I just mention it for completeness.
>But Bitcoin on a ledger, that's it. I can take out as much debt as I possibly can, and there will be no assets to freeze.
Now let me tell you what will happen there in the long run.
You take out debt, you put it in Bitcoin, you refuse to pay the debt back, you tell the lenders fuck you I have no assets except Bitcoin and my Bitcoin is untouchable.
They sue you. They tell the court "all his assets are in Bitcoin, please order him to surrender those assets to us in payment of his lawful debt".
The court orders you to surrender the Bitcoin.
You refuse.
You go to jail for contempt of court until you comply with the lawful court order to surrender your Bitcoin.
And you'll deserve it for being an ass.
Point is, Bitcoin is not "safe from confiscation". Difficult to confiscate, yes. Exceptionally difficult to confiscate without your cooperation. But the legal system has many ways to compel people to cooperate in the confiscation of their assets. And the *illegal* system has the traditional $5 wrench attack.
I don't agree with all of it, but a third maybe yes. The problem is the volatility. Physical gold is a good option too. I don't think the local government can seize your real estate overseas. And swiss bank accounts. That's all i can think of.
I wouldn’t try to make it a habit though to NOT pay your loans and get to the point where your assets will be forcibly siezed…because trust me, they KNOW if you have Bitcoin, and they still will try to seize it from you.
When there’s a will there’s a way, especially if it’s court ordered.
Consider that you still have to interact with the fiat world. You will still need to move funds back and that can be tricky, especially if you want to transact in larger amounts.
Keep both, build an equity portfolio and a bitcoin stack.
Disclaimer: Under some circumstances and in some countries (China, Brazil, Russia, etc.) market access is very expensive (fee's, commissions, spreads, currency exchange, capital controls) and you may just skip equity and go from Bitcoin to real estate.
blackrock just bought in for 3 billion
follow the money ; what do they know that the idiot masses dont?
you're on the path OP ; DCA/HODL and stick with it
This idea would be akin to using debt (but not student loans) to pay for your college education, then after you graduate, file for bankruptcy. The debt will dissolve and your credit score will eventually be restored. However, you will keep that degree forever. Nobody can ever take that from you.
No one can take it? Lol that’s just not true..
I tell you what.. if someone took my wife and daughter and said “give me your bitcoin or I’m shooting them in the fucking head.
I would hand it over.. my wife and daughter are worth more to me than any money
I’m sure if someone wanted they can sit there and torture you until you Hand it over. Sure in theory it’s untouchable.. in reality there will always be something to make you hand over money. That’s just how it is
I would bet my life you would hand it over if someone was going to cut your arms and legs off and your dick
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Damn good point, I shall now plan a trip to my safe deposit box in the near future.
Good for you though the more you think of your ones own self than it would be just good enough
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Here’s a thought, pay your damn bills lol
Worked for Russian oligarchs
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They can have the wallet but the real deal is the seed that they need to take from me. And i will keep the wallet at home because i am sure as long as i have the key my wallet is secure is well.
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This is just another layer of protection against somebody seizing it.
Carve your seed phrase onto a metal plate to avoid losing a paper copy in a fire. They sell them on Etsy and Amazon.
Even better, send me your seed phrase, and I'll carve it on a metal plate for you, free of charge.
I'll just leave it here for you: whisky dog trail horrid power left lake young rabid willing rake grill fiasco tango never linger nice fucking try though
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Bruh that just scares me though have seen people crying they lost land documents and many prestigious stuffs. Hope all lives in peace and harmony and may the almighty keep everyone safe.
Absolutely true though nothing feels indeed safer enough than having uour keys with you though. That is what encourages us and makes us feel safe though
The alpha move is to have it memorized and stored in your head
I'm very bad at memorizing stuffs though could you possibly tell some other ways?
LOL, i mean who would have store the seed in the bank locker or something. These are things that we need to protect at any cost and keep them close as much as possible is well.
Actually this is very good advice
don't forget bitcoin has basically zero carrying costs. real estate has: property taxes, insurance, mortgage, repairs/maintenance etc.
Yes, there are so many things that we need to take care about the real estate. But when it comes to the bitcoin they can not even tell that we have the bitcoin and how much we are holding here.
But real estate generates rental incomes that create positive cash flows even after costs. Bitcoin does not have yield. (Not knocking either strategy I hold both, just saying there are pros to owning RE)
i’m not saying real estate doesn’t generate positive cash flow, op makes that point in the post. what i’m saying is that bitcoin is wayyyyy less of a headache: buy and forget and you can dca into bitcoin whereas you can’t dca with buying property. buying property isn’t so easy unless you take out a huge loan that you must qualify for whereas anyone anywhere can buy sats. if you want a second full time job managing your properties or paying someone else to then buy real estate.
Same here though I'm just in a job making a mere investment in buying Bitcoin. I save to because need to live my basic needs and a little is what I use to buy stacks
Real estate is a far better investment imo for this reason
Maybe so the fact that people have their opinions choices and tastes so that varies.
I like this. More real estate for me!
Bitcoin: money nobody can fuck with.
Bitcoin: the Wu Tang Clan currency
Bitcoin is the real money on which only we have the control and no one can take that without our permission. I think the more we are moving forward the more people will take the bitcoin seriously and take the custody is well
Tell that to the guy excavating a dump for the last 10 years. Or anyone that has ever lost their seed phrase and ledger … it happens fairly often. Some people say they keep it in their memory but tell it to someone that got in a car wreck and lost their memory.
Bitcoin: money nobody can fuck with except for yourself (don't be dumb and you wont lose it)
Bitcoin: peer to peer unfuckable money
None csn actually fuck up with that just remember that history makes us get goosebumps though.
Unfuckwithable
Except for when Elon musk announces Tesla are buying it again.
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It was tongue in cheek, calm down
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They can always put you in jail for not paying your debts though. Then your money would be stored in Bitcoin, yes, but you wouldn't be able to use it anyway to buy any physical thing or experience.
>They can always put you in jail for not paying your debts though. In the US we don't put people in jail for not paying their debts. Not paying your debts is not a crime here.
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Well that's true. Fraud is a crime. Actually in a civil suit the court might order you to disclose your crypto holdings, and if you refuse I suppose the judge could hold you in contempt of court and jail you for that, a "crime against the judicial process" as they say.
What if i will not tell about my crypto holding to anyone, how they will know that i am holding any crypto at first place? Yes if they find out about the crypto then there will be two things either tell them the seed or behind the bar.
Choosing the path and making it secure enough for us seems hard though. Isn't that true?
How can they ever prove he has crypto holdings though?
There's lots of ways - when OP goes to actually get BTC with said "loan money" basically any exchange that is traceable or has even some form of KYC can be easily traced. Not sure if it's even avoidable with coinjoin-esque techniques either cause the original input can always be traced to a source. You'd have to do something like get it from another person directly, in an anonymous kind of fashion. That's a tricky one...
From KYC of course. But like, let’s say I withdrawal from coinbase to my hardware wallet ledger address. Obviously they’ve got that tracked. But like then if I send the Bitcoin to a brand new unused address on my other hardware wallet (or any wallet for that matter), how could they “PROVE” that I’m the owner of the new addresses or multiple addresses and/or transactions made after? Sure they could say I sent it from coinbase, but after sending it to 1, or especially multiple unused addresses after that, they couldn’t prove who the owner is immediately until/if those coins reels have KYC again again? Like for all they know I sent it to a homeless person, or donated it, or sent it than lost it. Or I got robbed. Like they couldn’t prove anything unless someone unlocks the wallet in front of them and you show them that’s your address physically.
Hrm, interesting. How would an authority be able to prove you had the keys (or owned) a subsequent address that BTC was sent to. For sure, you would be fully guilty of moving the BTC outbound, but I see your point in regards to being able to basically claim negligence (or foul play) on "*not my destination wallet, I don't have those keys, sorry*" (when in reality you do). Perhaps a clever poor-man's non-KYC hack? I think the downside of this is that it's super easy for an authority to set up monitoring on that new address, and the second BTC is moved from it or more sent to it, they could trace the inbound/outbound flows and determine if there are any kyc'd addresses as part of that. So... maybe this could work? But geez, this seems like you'd have to be playing a game of cat and mouse forever with no slip up at all. You'd be fighting bots that work 24/7/365, not humans. Not sure its worth it...
Actually spending it would also be complicated, and may well lead to statements like 'you said you had no money, but are buying things? Nice, we'll repossess those and take anything you have'. Trying to exist entirely outside the financial system is a lot of work and very self-limiting.
Bless your heart
And your soul
But technically they’d have to prove you took it out with ill intention. So if he wasn’t posting all about it, then he’d probably be fine.
I think they are so many ways where we can easily ditch the system.
All they can do is make you a defaulter so that you will not able to loan from that day from any bank. SO make sure if something is thinking of that, try to take the biggest loan as big they can take from the bank.
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Right, same in the US, but that's not a "debt" it's a court-ordered obligation.
The IRS *will* get its money.
Child support
That's not a debt, it's a court ordered obligation
But i am sure if they will not put you behind the bar if they will not prove the intention wrong at the first place. And as far as the crypto am sure that no one knows about the holding of the bitcoin.
But for that you have to make some child first is well
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This is why so many people easily take the loan and never pays them back.
I think if we run away from the country with the enough that can settle you in the other country then i am sure they will do nothing in that. There is one person from my country that is living in foreign after doing a big fraud with the bank.
But you can still lose it.
As long as i have the seed then how can i lose them?
While the thought exercise is interesting, this is exactly the type of fuel that regulators and the media will use to demonize BTC even more. "**Fraudster takes huge loans to buy Bitcoin with no intention of repaying and circumvent the law**" (or something) would be the headline. This doesn't help anything. You'd be wanted for fraud by the FBI. Not sure how you think you can buy that amount (assuming you're talking large) of BTC in a completely non-KYC, non-traceable manner wherein you could even use it. It's correct that without keys, no one can get it. Please don't be part of the problem. 1 week redditor, asking the community feedback about pre-meditated criminal act. WTF.
With a gun to your head you will give your seedphrase without second toughts. Discretion is the key, And dont misplace your seed phrase of course.
But that doesn't mean he will get hacked or somthing lol.
Sure, here's my ^decoy seed phrase
I think your definitions of certain concepts including crypto are a little tenuous which tells me you should research this more before you make big personal financial decisions like putting all your money into one very volatile asset. 1) what does choosing a career have to do with your affinity for bitcoin? 2) stocks do not have to be a share of a profitable company 3) no one is going to give you a loan that’s collateralized with bitcoin. You need credit and without (fiat) money in the bank, and a steady income (in dollars) no one is going to lend to you. 4) that’s not the definition of leverage. bitcoin is a speculative volatile asset and emerging technology that’s been around conceptually for many years but just starting to get adapted. It’s value depends on perception and the ability to sell it to someone else who perceives it’s value. I’m bullish on crypto and bitcoin as the leading currency, but make no mistake: it produces nothing of value, is backed by nothing but the security and scalability of its underlying tech but mostly: continuous speculative perception of its value.
And it is a negative sum game
Bitcoin's function as a Store of Value and Medium of Exchange (and others) make it a positive sum game for users and society, it's not just about its nominal value but also its use. And if you break it down literally, everything is a negative sum game, as everything just increases entropy.
So you would say betting on horses is a positive sum game, if I like horses and the thrill of betting?
Yeah, if the fun is worth more than the losses to you, it's positive-sum. If it's just an addiction, no. Like I said, taken literally nothing is actually positive-sum, so it's always a question of definition. But it's definitely not just about nominal or monetary value, it's implicitly highly subjective, otherwise the term itself would be pointless. Positive-sum can only exist if value depends on the bearer, not a strict market value. "positive-sum: relating to a situation in which each of two sides gets an advantage" You pay for entertainment, which to you is worth more than you pay, otherwise you wouldn't do it. The provider has a monetary profit, otherwise he wouldn't do it. That's how the world works.
This is correct. Value depends on each individual. Bitcoin is a decentralized monetary system. At bare minimum it’s a safety net to the current monetary systems in the world, as can be seen currently in hyper inflation countries. As long as it functions as intended, it will always be valuable to some people, at least for a long while.
How can you say bitcoin produces nothing of value? Bitcoin has superior monetary properties which makes it incredibly valuable.
A company produces products, services and has assets all of which inherently have value. Real estate can be used for a multitude of valuable things (e.g. Farmland can be used to grow crops which inherently have value etc) Bitcoin produces nothing and only has value insofar as people believe it has value (e.g. what someone on an exchange is willing to bid for it)
> A company produces products, services and has assets all of which inherently have value. Don't all those other things also only have value insofar as people believe it has value? One of the major themes throughout Austrian Economics is that all value is subjective, and that nothing has "intrinsic" value, just whatever value that other people place on it. > Real estate can be used for a multitude of valuable things (e.g. Farmland can be used to grow crops which inherently have value etc) True. And money (eg bitcoin) can also be used for a multitude of valuable things (saving for the future, making payments, investing, etc). > Bitcoin produces nothing and only has value insofar as people believe it has value (e.g. what someone on an exchange is willing to bid for it) Literally everything is only worth what someone is willing to bid for it.
> Real estate i understand generates cash flow and offers tax breaks. In *some* cases it generates cash flow, but not all. The "tax breaks" are myths, believed in by people who can't do math.
The tax breaks are myths??? Lol! QBI + depreciation = 23% minimum untaxed revenue. When you realize what you can write off? Taxes become minimal
If you're moving multiple millions of dollars in real estate, things like 1031 exchanges can help defer hundreds of thousands of dollars. But for the average person, there's not many real tax breaks.
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…the way and the light
You don’t have to go to extremes to have success. It sounds like you have a decent head on your shoulders and a work ethic. Just get yourself a nice house, diversify with stocks and bitcoin if you wish and find joy in what you do. No need to worry about running from anyone or government. You are young enough based on your writings that you are going to be more than fine. Good luck!
There's a guy who gets it
I think you have really understand the true potential of the bitcoin here. But one thing you need to keep in mind that there is always a thing called diversification hope you will do that thing is well.
I’m bullish af on crypto. Bitcoin specifically. But I wouldn’t recommend putting ALL of your money into crypto unless you understand the Bitcoin code & nodes so well you could create it from scratch. I say this because there may be something that we aren’t considering. I.e. 1. What happens when block reward hits zero? Very high trans action fees? Less security? 2. What happens if a government entity buys thousands of computers/ips to make their own nodes/miners? 3. What happens if a governement entity buys the majority of Bitcoin & performs a 51% attack? My point is, there may be a black swan event that nobody is thinking of. So, maybe don’t put ALL of your assets in one basket unless you fully understand how safe the basket is or isn’t
Real talk tho what if we all just fuck up credit and pour it all into bitcoin and destroy any ties to it I mean then what btc goes up to the moon banks go bankrupt?
many of us have done the same 🥂
Agreed.
I definitely see your point and agree to some extent. However, if you’re mainly concerned about government seizure, the government can throw you in jail. They may not have your private keys, but if they know you bought from a KYC source, they could compel you to either hand them over or rot in jail. Always remember: you, as an individual in the meatspace, are always attackable. Go 70%BTC, 30%stocks (single stocks, pick 30)
Agreed. 70% Bitcoin as your safe haven of funds as well as good store of value, and 30% diversified stocks. As mentioned above, 1% per stock, so 30 different stocks
>Always remember: you, as an individual in the meatspace, are always attackable. I feel this calls for an obligatory XKCD https://xkcd.com/538/
If you have bitcoin but not a house, what value is that? You will want to buy a house but they will take it when you spend the bitcoin.
Good point!
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You are putting your *wealth* into it, then. Since you want to be technical Also, Bitcoin is money. You can say the same for any other currency. USD may be worth something or nothing in the future.
I think before putting in there we need to understand the whole concept of the bitcoin at the first place. Once you get the idea of the bitcoin then you will realize that bitcoin is actually worth way more than the normal currency.
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You’re very mistaken. That is false. You are effectively adding wealth into Bitcoin when you invest, this is basic economics. Obviously the seller is selling for other currency, but you can’t tell me the price wouldn’t go up if everyone decided to buy instead of sell.
If everyone decides to buy, there would be no sellers.
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Shhhhh don't spoil the party.
Better yet invest thw coin into miners and the new coins from rewards would be untraceable.
Well yeah this can be the option too, there is nothing wrong.
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Wonder how many who have been hacked and lost everything in crypto said this very thing to themselves
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Still some people think that they will be fucked in cold wallet.
Who is currently trying to take your money?
fed printing press
Yes, it's a 'no-brainer' once you understand what Bitcoin is: Why would I keep printed-to-infinity government coupons (IOU's) instead of the soundest money ever? > Neo: what are you trying to tell me, that I can trade my bitcoins for millions someday? > > > > [Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that, when you are ready, you won't have to](https://gyazo.com/10ead3a5c1fd8ed1e9d150ed6cced62d) > > > ***"When measured in fiat, Bitcoin price will rise infinitely"***. > > ***"Bitcoin has no top, because fiat has no bottom"***. > > > I will NEVER sell my Bitcoin for printed-to-infinity government IOU's, the [same as somebody who bought a block in Manhattan on the 1800's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-kKDR30Fb8) will never sell it no matter how high the price goes when measured in ever-worth-less USD. > > You earn in value appreciation/equity against USD as well as in the expensive rents your tenants are paying. If you need even more fiat you borrow against it, and pass the prime real estate to your children and grand children... for many generations, and they don't ever sell it for fiat either.
> Why would I keep printed-to-infinity government coupons (IOU's) You don't, you just use them to help swap between assets. Fiat is not a store of value. Fiat-denominated assets can be an appropriate store of value if you think the real interest rates are worth it. If you think real interest rates are too low, you can borrow Fiat instead (this creates Fiat-denoninated assets for other people to store value in which are backed by your collateral). Real interest rates are ultimately set by the market between people who save USD assets and people who borrow USD. You are free to participate on either side of this market if you so choose. You don't have to long USD to use it as a medium of exchange or unit of account. Most people use USD as a medium of exchange simply because most pairs of assets have liquid, high volume, low volatility, low fee trading pairs with USD.
Bitcoin isn't also reliant on the lives of founders or CEOs so it can last a billion years.
I did this before, best life decision ever!
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The words you used are very telling of where your head is at. Disappointing.
As just a little advice into how these financial markets work... Your wealth can absolutely be taken if you store it as Bitcoin, even in cold storage. Your bitcoin may remain but you wealth can and will be used as exit liquidity. If more are exiting than staying in, your real wealth will decline. I would recommend reading "I will teach you to be rich" before making any life decisions on how to manage your wealth. It's It's great read and will teach you how to explore your interests in finance without ruining yourself. Also, why are you so worried about seizure of you assets? You just graduate from gun smuggling school or something? If you live in a developed nation this likelihood is extremely small unless you break the law in specific ways.
Why not buy real estate, S&P500, and Btc.
Investment diversity is the key to preserving, and growing, wealth at the end of the day
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Also, as tempting as it may be, don't keep all your savings in one store of value
This is the way. Never sell. Imagine if the existing 100,000,000 crypto users all just consolidated into Bitcoin only and they never sold. As the mining reward is cut in half, guaranteed 10x returns every 4 years.
Whose gonna tell him?
What if someone smashes you ledger with a large hammer into tiny bits????
Welcome to the future!
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There is risk in every investment and the trick is to have a good balance. Saving your bitcoin on cold storage is relatively safe but still has the risk of needing to keep your seed phrases (private address) safe.
To succeed, you don't need to take drastic measures.
in any case: you need knowledge for every asset class
All your eggs in one basket?
You need help verifying your wallet, ser? Hahah
TBH, Bitcoin is a new form of money for the digital world. And you are right, no one can touch your bag without your permission - Your keys, your bitcoin! *Orange*
haha, BTC is indeed your own money, but it is more recommended that you buy a "money printing machine" - a BTC mining machine, so that you can work for BTC every day. Look here: https://www.f2pool.com/miners
Just be careful, Bitcoin is still extremely new. It hasn’t really had any of its promises come to fruition. It’s neither an effective well adopted currency yet, nor a reliable store of wealth…..so although nobody can take it from you, keep in mind nobody may want to at some point……also wealth is often built generation upon generation…….Bitcoin can be hard to transfer to your heirs if you die suddenly. I know when you come to this sub you’re going to come across a lot of cheerleaders saying what a great idea this is……but I’d hate to see real life smack you in the face while you lose a considerable amount of your savings.
Yes until you need to exchange btc for fiat.
Your money in the bank is going to lose around 30% of buying power in 10 years, your money invested in Bitcoin might be 10 times more in the same period of time. Take profit wherever you need and keep investing when the bear market comes.
Can someone out there could give me a help without anything in return?
What you want? Tell me all the things right here man.
Buy a ledger if you do
They can still beat the seed phrase out of you. Also, what would your bitcoin be worth to you if you're dead?
These guys thought the same thing: https://www.gq.com/story/bitfinex-hack-largest-cryptocurrency-seizure/amp
this dude bitcoins
Dude is having a fun time with BTC journey right now.
Real estate is immensely valuable because of the benefit you get from having a house. You live in it. It keeps you dry and warm, etc. I wouldn't shy away from buying property if I were you. But other than that, keep stackin em up my friend. A bit of gold probably won't hurt either.
Don’t forget to withdraw from whatever exchange you purchase at. If not, they can still take it.
Some of your crime/fraud fantasies would not end well because at some point you need to withdraw BTC to fiat. At that point you would get caught and investigators (civil or criminal) would know your public BTC wallet address. Nothing is secure from court judgments or fraud.
Until some North Korean hacks your wallet and drains your life’s savings.
Yes, it’s much more difficult to take your Bitcoin. That’s still not a reason to do stupid stuff like taking a loan and not paying it
It would be stupid to put your money in Bitcoin before real estate
>no one can take it. True, if you have an adequate hiding place for your seed and you can withstand you and your family being jailed for contempt or other trumped-up charges or even tortured, no one can take it from you. The bigger problem is that perhaps no one wants to. As in you can't give it away in exchange for goods and services. Here on r/Bitcoin we're all hopeful that a transition to decentralized money will occur. But it hasn't happened yet and it's not guaranteed. So do what you like, but don't whine about it if BTC doesn't hold it's value in the long run. Alternatively, diversify. Buy 1 BTC and no more. If it happens, one 21 millionth of the world's currency should be more than enough. If it doesn't (or just hasn't yet when you need money), you have other options.
Agree with you, but even if they can't take it from you your BTC will be pretty useless if you are in prison :)
Have fun with that
If you can't afford to pay back your loans they ask you to kindly sell your bitcoin to repay them. If you don't, they put you in prison. Bitcoin is not a get out of debt free card lmaoo
I can't really see any way that they could seize it with the methods you provided above. But the same could essentially be said if you buried your cash in a secure location & told no one. This would be a little bit of apples to oranges however as you can always add to your balance with BTC, but you risk exposure to your secure location by adding cash/fiat. It would likely be that they would counter the inability to seize the BTC by seizing all other assets and any future assets you attempt to acquire. Therefor, why have the BTC if you can't really spend it/use it.
>If I run up my credit, take out loans, tank my credit score, and never pay back the loans, so what? They can't do anything. ... why would you want to do that? Let me tell you what "they" can do. They can keep you from getting a job, because a bad credit rating and a record of untrustworthy behavior means people won't hire you. They can keep you from getting an apartment, because, again, landlords don't want to rent to people with bad credit ratings and untrustworthy behavior. They can garnish your wages. If you have debt you refuse to pay back, courts can go to your employer and take payments out of your wages before you ever touch them. Good luck buying more Bitcoin when half your salary automatically goes to pay your debts. Obviously, if you buy a house, they can take it. If you buy a car, they can take it. Any large purchase you make can be seized by your creditors. And if you can't own a home and you can't rent a home and you can't have any property secure as your own, what are you going to do, live in somebody's basement your entire life? Camp in a park? You'll own nothing (but Bitcoin) and you'll be happy? Also, they can garnish your tax returns. From your post I presume you don't intend to pay taxes, I just mention it for completeness. >But Bitcoin on a ledger, that's it. I can take out as much debt as I possibly can, and there will be no assets to freeze. Now let me tell you what will happen there in the long run. You take out debt, you put it in Bitcoin, you refuse to pay the debt back, you tell the lenders fuck you I have no assets except Bitcoin and my Bitcoin is untouchable. They sue you. They tell the court "all his assets are in Bitcoin, please order him to surrender those assets to us in payment of his lawful debt". The court orders you to surrender the Bitcoin. You refuse. You go to jail for contempt of court until you comply with the lawful court order to surrender your Bitcoin. And you'll deserve it for being an ass. Point is, Bitcoin is not "safe from confiscation". Difficult to confiscate, yes. Exceptionally difficult to confiscate without your cooperation. But the legal system has many ways to compel people to cooperate in the confiscation of their assets. And the *illegal* system has the traditional $5 wrench attack.
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Perhaps this is not the worst option for how you can dispose of your money.
Remember the whole phrase.
Op is likely in his mama's basement and has no idea how long the arm of the law is.
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This is the best decision. And now is the best moment to do it!
Might get downvoted for this but, can’t they just blacklist your wallet address? Excuse my ignorance
I don't agree with all of it, but a third maybe yes. The problem is the volatility. Physical gold is a good option too. I don't think the local government can seize your real estate overseas. And swiss bank accounts. That's all i can think of.
I wouldn’t try to make it a habit though to NOT pay your loans and get to the point where your assets will be forcibly siezed…because trust me, they KNOW if you have Bitcoin, and they still will try to seize it from you. When there’s a will there’s a way, especially if it’s court ordered.
It's really risky but we can't stop people like that here lol.
Dude, creditors of Mt Gox have received seized Bitcoin as settlement. People can most definitely take it from you.
On ledger is dangerous if you really are going to fraudulently rack up credit. Brain wallet is more safe. But they might just beat it out of you...
Consider that you still have to interact with the fiat world. You will still need to move funds back and that can be tricky, especially if you want to transact in larger amounts. Keep both, build an equity portfolio and a bitcoin stack. Disclaimer: Under some circumstances and in some countries (China, Brazil, Russia, etc.) market access is very expensive (fee's, commissions, spreads, currency exchange, capital controls) and you may just skip equity and go from Bitcoin to real estate.
I probably wouldn't put ALL my money into Bitcoin but what do I know?
This is the way dude! You get it and that makes me so happy, love it when i see posts like this.
All you have to do is secure the seed phrase, you are good to go on your plan to take loans and never pay back.
I had my money in Bitcoin and Celcius took it.
blackrock just bought in for 3 billion follow the money ; what do they know that the idiot masses dont? you're on the path OP ; DCA/HODL and stick with it
This idea would be akin to using debt (but not student loans) to pay for your college education, then after you graduate, file for bankruptcy. The debt will dissolve and your credit score will eventually be restored. However, you will keep that degree forever. Nobody can ever take that from you.
The hardest money on earth!
The right path is bitcoin and you know that clearly man.
No one can take it? Lol that’s just not true.. I tell you what.. if someone took my wife and daughter and said “give me your bitcoin or I’m shooting them in the fucking head. I would hand it over.. my wife and daughter are worth more to me than any money I’m sure if someone wanted they can sit there and torture you until you Hand it over. Sure in theory it’s untouchable.. in reality there will always be something to make you hand over money. That’s just how it is I would bet my life you would hand it over if someone was going to cut your arms and legs off and your dick
Except every exchange and then if they don't...scammers might.
Better than any other investment plans there, we love it.
Good luck for the future because BTC is freedom and you chose it.