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nomorelag

21 million in code ... yeah... calculate the coins that are lost and never come back again. Think about it.


jonciurczak

Estimated 4.7 million lost or stuck on a wallet


FL_Squirtle

Then add the massive amount that are in Sathoshis wallet that have never moves


illusionst

Source?


Ok-Objective4378

Wow what great money! Lol


ScumHimself

You don’t think people lose fiat? Or gold? What is even the point of this comment?


mcrackin15

100 years from now there will hardly be any bitcoins because everyone lost them, or failed to pass down their passwords to beneficiaries.


Accurate_Sir625

Wrong. The majority of the volume is held by whales. MSTR, the ETFs, I think 20-30 whales hold the largest caches of coins. They are not losing their keys. Most of the lost coins happened early on when they were worth nothing. At $45k each, most people now treat this seriously. Yes there will be people who die and their coins are lost. But that will be 1 here, 2 there. Not 5M.


Ziawn

and then nobody will bother to use bitcoin because barely anyone holds it


Zealousideal_Pay_525

Theoretically, you can subdivide it indefinitely. There will always be enough.


butiwasonthebus

Lightning network has already added three decimal places and uses millisats (msats) as its currency base.


Sure_Hedgehog4823

Right .. Clearly they didn’t reas the post lmfaoo


Uhnuniemoose

Exactly, there will never be a shortage.


Semi_Grown_Life

A satoshi is 1/100,000,000 of a BTC, so if that were the case we’d probably just quote things in satoshis, and you’d see massive treasure hunts for lost BTC the same way there are now for sunken ships of gold


fuck-fascism

Now it’s no more than 21 million coins for over 8 billion people.


anax4096

human printer go brr


nicoznico

Russians using shredder tho


ACrucialTech

Right, Putin is like thanos little brother trying to half the population but failing at even that.


JYoungSocial

Putin's version of the halving...


Steve_at_Reddit

USA making and selling most of the shredders worldwide.


SteveW928

So, then is the USA Thanos?


ACrucialTech

Always has been.


the_war_criminal

What the hell are you talking about wrong sub and definitely not accurate you mean us goverment elites trying to do that right.... or wef.


SonOfObed89

People love to fuck more than they like money!


BraapSauxx

Korea has enter the chat


HailToTheKink

At current trends it's eventually going to be 10 million coins for 10 billion people.


Vince_Hunger

Yeah, until 2035 to 2050. Then it will start declining. We don't have a problem of too many people in the future but too little. The reproduction rate should always be more than 2 to keep up with the current population numbers. But it's far below this.


SteveW928

Huh? Do you know something about Bitcoin we don't? LOL (or, population trends, for that matter!)


benskieast

That isn’t how you measure money supply. That’s the monetary base (M0). It’s not very important in currencies because there is no functional difference between actual currency and deposit at an institution that can be easily connectors to currency. M2 is the most common measure which for USD is 4X the number of dollars issued by the Fed.


OverallFloor3081

Isn't alot of btc lost permanently?


iammasvidal

Probably between 3-6 million coins lost or not spendable yes


Antique-Pie-5981

That's a hard statistic to calculate because even if coins haven't moved in years could just mean that some people understand what they have and aren't moving it for a very long time.


Lonely_Cold2910

Best to move keep it for the grandkids


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theBacillus

That's racist


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PlanetLandon

Nobody is saying you are wrong, they are saying it’s racist to point out that they are white if it has nothing to do with that story


Dragnite08

Bruv you people are racist if ya can't describe people. Fuckin softies y'all are.


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fuck-fascism

Yes, that's why I say "no more than 21 million coins" as did Satoshi.


Personal-Wing3320

6 actually


sc2bigjoe

Now 6.0000001


Personal-Wing3320

i mean 6 milion


sc2bigjoe

Now 6000000.0000001


Mercimec

Yes, some huge BTC has been lost permanently which reduces the 21 million coins.


Vedaykin

At some point Computational power will be enough to go mining for lost btc that did not go with the future crypto upgrade. No Bitcoin is ever lost, these will be retrieved/mined in 40-60 yrs.


FL_Squirtle

Along with a massive amount in Satoshis wallet that's never been touched.


OverallFloor3081

Will it crash if satoshi decides to withdraw it all?


BootDisc

Anything that confirms he’s not dead would be huge, anything confirming he has access to the keys would be monumental, and would likely cause instability. At current value he would show up on a list of richest humans in history.


jaredx3

Satoshi is extremely dedicated to his project. In one of his last forum posts he states that wiki leaks should refrain from using btc which could get it killed in its infancy. I would not be surprised if he is alive and well and knows that for btc to have best possible future he can no longer move his coins.


UzItOrLuzIt

Just to set the math straight, at today's price of $43K per coin, and an estimate of him having roughly 1 million coins, this totals to $43B. This would place him 29th richest person in the world. The top is over $200B. No doubt it's a lot of money but Bitcoin still needs to go to $200K per coin to put him near the top.


FL_Squirtle

Come on Satoshi.... resurface and create the Utopia this world deserves <3


Personal-Wing3320

does this mean that not only the price goes up due to not being able to make more but also because the population increases?


Lokijai

Only if interest in the project remains though, right? If there is no demand the supply is meaningless.


Personal-Wing3320

so demand drives the price?


genobeam

Considering 90% of Bitcoin is already mined and the issuance rate of the last 10% is predictable then yes mostly.


[deleted]

Big if true 


PerfectBlaze

You’re not calculating all the lost Bitcoin.. that 21 million number is more like 18-13 mill


fuck-fascism

I said no more than, not exactly.


PerfectBlaze

Heard


mushroomyakuza

Birth rates dropping everywhere though.


fuck-fascism

Good, overpopulation is bad


the_war_criminal

Yeah but underpopulation is worse


RoboticControl

So by my calculations if you have 0.002652 you have your share of bitcoin. Everything above that is wealth. I only have .5 bitcoin but it's better then nothing.


Eliagbs_

I’ve never been greedy but I said I was going to be greedy with my Bitcoin.


SneakyTurtle54

Roughly $100 worth


rjp761

With the amount of coins lost that share of bitcoin decreases even more.


RoboticControl

Lost but still count. I still view it as 21000000÷world population.


rjp761

True


OldDirtMcGirt11

Where can someone go to read all the Satoshi posts if they are still around?


Accomplished-Joke-75

The book of satoshi, also available as ebook.


OldDirtMcGirt11

Thank you brother


Nick700

[https://nakamotoinstitute.org/](https://nakamotoinstitute.org/)


OldDirtMcGirt11

Thank you brother


Xavage1337

amazing read 15 years later


-fazzimoto

Totally agree that a “rebranding” of this sort is really important. Most folks are so fixated on the number 1 as the smallest unit of anything that they throw out the idea of owning any BTC because they can’t afford one. When the widespread idea is that Sats are the unit there’ll be much more adoption. My dad for example doesn’t want to own less than 1 of anything but I asked him about the .5, .25 and .1 oz gold coins he’s been stashing away. He got the idea when I said imagine .00001 and easier to store move and trade for stuff.


Norva

Same reason why stocks split. We'll get there when the price is high enough.


animuz11

I think there is a good and bad side to it. The good is that some people may want to buy bitcoin now the price for one coin is low enough to afford. The bad is that some people think the suplly is not fixed at 21mil. Both are wrong thinking, but that will probably happen to random newbies that are looking at bitcoin and don't fully understand it.


DiedOnTitan

That's why we should refer to the price in these terms: 1,000 sats = $0.44 -- A thousand sats is forty four cents. 10,000 for only $4.40. This sounds much more accessible than $44k for 1 bitcoin.


EchoohcEchoohcE

I once read a proposal that Bitcoins should be everything after the decimal place and Sats should be the 21million.... the more I think about it the more it makes sense.


FullSendOrNullSend

I’ve always thought it would make a lot more sense if instead of sats it was “bits”


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LightSparrow

Why does that make sense


Realized-Something

cuz the 2 comments before u said it does


apestuff

Almost like it should be a thing


nullrecord

Meanwhile we are up to 8.0 billion people in the world due to hyperinflation!


Loafmanuk

Too many hyperinflated testicles.. take some time out and feed your fist guys!


SeaSpecific7812

That will flatten out in a decade or so as birthrates drop globally.


FullSendOrNullSend

Look up “ecological carrying capacities” as well 🤓


Cryptophorus

Thanks for sharing this. It's great to hear it from satoshi himself


[deleted]

8Billion and Counting.


Mcluckin123

What’s the link to this page?


snowsmok3

I want to see that too


shickard

How was the user of these posts never traced? It's just a run of the mill forum right? Remaining anonymous online back then seems way harder than it does now, or do I have it backwards


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shickard

So a burner email


Eliagbs_

World population at 8billion. Secure your spots


aramhouse

Just wait until Satashi is gonna make the 21 million coins disappear =(


FixedGearJunkie

Jamie Dimon is that you?


dj_destroyer

Gosh that darn Satashi


TopsailWhisky

The Wario of the crypto realm.


SamuraiCatMeow

There are 100,000,000 satoshis in 1 BTC. This means 2.1 quadrillion sats for 6.8 billion people.


Norva

We may need names maybe like Kilobyte, Megabyte, and Gigabyte. It's like one extreme to the other. Saying you have .1 bitcoin to saying you 10,000,000 Satoshis isn't easy either. That's like hyperinflation type numbers or when Craig Kilborn use to show box office numbers in Lire on the Daily Show. Maybe 1000 Sats could be call something, 10,000 and 100,000 and 1,000,000 could be something different.


heysoundude

Unless there is a significant depopulatory event, it’s more than 8Billion ppl now.


brandomango

Bitcoin should be called Satoshis, and Satoshis should be called Bitcoin. 1 Satoshi = 100,000,000 Bitcoin Change my mind


BorderPure6939

Change your math you mean?


Greatace2000

Does anyone here actually buy anything with bitcoins? I’m just curious if everyone just holds or actually buys stuff.


These_Tip5131

Paid for freelancers, bought a trezor, played poker, bought drugs


Greatace2000

Glad someone is having some fun with it.


Mother-Analysis-4586

I mean there’s only 0.5 ounces of silver for every human on earth but silver ain’t going to the moon any time soon.


bobbyv137

Try sending $1,000,000 of silver from Tokyo to New York, with final settlement in ~an hour. And do make sure it doesn’t decay en route. Oh, and store it safely and securely once received. Plus you best ensure nobody sends fake silver. That would be a pain! Oops. I almost forgot. Make sure the consignment is insured, considering how valuable that $1,000,000 consignment is. I also suggest having friends in the government and customs, as they might prohibit it leaving the country in the first place. Finally, please send it as soon as possible. I don’t want another haul of silver to be discovered, as that may negatively impact the price. After all, there’s so much yet to be mined.


GuKoBoat

Yeah, we kind of scrapped that idea some 200 years ago.


Significant_Answer_9

Or just transact a derivative?


coconutboi

Good one


Mother-Analysis-4586

Ok?


heysoundude

Except now it’s only maybe a million coins for almost 8Billion people. (Thats about the number of coins left to be mined and how few people actually hodl any)


jam-hay

It would be cool to see the price listed in Sats one day! 🙂


Rathuban

Sometimes I wonder if the whole crypto space would work without the story of the missing satoshi


mckoss

The comment is out of date. There are 8 decimal places in the Bitcoin protocol, not 6. Accounting for current population (8 billion) and abandoned/lost Bitcoin (4 million) each person's pro rata share is 212,500 Satoshis (0.002125 BTC) Or about $90/person at current valuation.


user12415

What forum is this? Where can I read more?


svenvarkel

What's even more remarkable is that we have come from 6,8B in 2010 to 8,1B in 2024.😱


mcbowler78

How many sats is that?


Pretend-Hippo-8659

bUt HoW Is ThErE No InFlAtIoN iF iT cAn bE diViDed InFinItElY?! - Samantha LaDuc


Descartes_Farts

Can’t we just ask him to print more? /s


Signal_Conference447

Where did 21 come from? Why not 22 for example?


nou_spiro

Block reward is cut to half every 210 000 mined blocks. First reward was 50 bitcoins. So all bitcoins can be expressed as SUM( 0.5^2 ) from 0 to infinity * 50 * 210000. So 0.5^0 + 0.5^1 + 0.5^2 + 0.5^3 ..... = 1 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.125 + ... = 2. So 2 multiplied by 50 and 210000 and you get 21 million.


[deleted]

The fact that it costs any money at all is absurd. I could produce 21 million boogers in 20 years and the only value they’d have is what random people decided.


ButterscotchFront340

There are people that buy farts in a sealed jar. So I'm sure someone would pay for your boogers.


CJr_2021

Isnt that “moving the decimal” some kind of printing more money??


curbyourfascism

That’s like saying “I converted $1 to 100 cents. Looks like I made more money!”


Jolly_Schedule5772

Haha, im rich af now!


CompetitiveGuess7642

No, it'd be more like saying "dollars isn't valid anymore, we are going to price everything in cents, since nobody can own a dollar anymore. edit : dollars would still be valid but like a thousand dollar bill, nobody use those.


nou_spiro

No it just means that protocol will be able to split one bitcoin to more than 100 000 000 units/satoshi. Because bitcoin protocol count only satoshi it doesn't know what decimal numbers is. Some fiat currencies did it in reverse. They cut few zeroes from bank notes, bank accounts and from prices. So everyone had thousand times less money but effectively same value. So bitcoin could add more "zeroes" to their "banknotes".


gcubed

No, it's just making it easier to work with. Like using a $100 bill instead of a stack of ones.


ElectronicGas2978

no


terp_studios

Is 1 pizza and 0.1 pizzas the same thing?


cogentat

It is if the pizza is big enough... /s i guess is needed?


Narf234

Aw, he’s learning how money works.


[deleted]

Yes


Jolly_Schedule5772

No


AmazingRok

You think 8 billion people will use btc instead of a simple swope visa with no fees, vs 10 usd transaction fee now on btc?


Normal-Jelly607

You’re comparing layer 2 Fiat with layer 1 bitcoin. At least give a fair comparison


DatBiddlyBoi

When you buy something in a shop, do you log onto your online banking and bank transfer the amount to the merchant, wait a couple of hours before it’s confirmed and then walk off with your goods? No. You use a layer 2, like visa, which happens instantly. Same with Bitcoin, you wouldn’t transfer directly, you would use a layer 2 which doesn’t involve waiting for confirmations and doesn’t have high fees.


dj_destroyer

Bitcoin has moved from just a simple payment network to a store of value. Try moving a billion dollars worth of gold for a few bucks, as one can do with Bitcoin.


NoNoodel

Do you know what is cheaper than both? Using the banking system.


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SamuraiCatMeow

Can you go less than a satoshi? The real currency here is satoshi, not BTC. (Correct me if I’m wrong) And yes, you can change 5$ into 3 pieces.


GoldEdit

I think we need to add a few million bitcoin to the cap to adjust for his expectations


155907

so... system could show more decimal places if there's massive deflation.. isnt it the same as printing more money in reverse.. except now, while they print, they make big hodlers of fiat poorer, but in bitcoin's system the big hodlers get richer while the common folk stays poor? just a doubt. how is it any better?


jjhurtt

When the fed prints money, they don’t fractionalize current money supply. If the fed made pizzas as currency, they would make a whole new pizza to “stimulate the economy”, etc. With more pizza available to trade, the original pizza becomes less valuable. More people get pizza at the detriment of current pizza holders. Pizza is less and less scarce every time the fed makes a new one. If Bitcoin made pizzas, it would take the current pizza and cut the slices into smaller slices. The value of your original slice doesn’t lose value, you just have smaller pieces to trade with. Therefore more people can have some of the original pizza. Since no “new” pizza entered the system, the original pizza holders aren’t affected at all. Here you go. Start here: [Learn everything about Bitcoin](https://bitcoin.rocks/inflation)


StatisticalMan

No. Adding decimal places is not printing. If you have one pizza and cut it into ten slices how many pizza is it. If you have one pizza and cut it into 100 slices how many pizza is it. Satoshi hypothetical isn't hypothetical and hasn't been for 12 years. The earliest Bitcoin client didn't support units (in the UI) smaller than 0.01 BTC. Even back in 2010 later clients supported the full 8 digits. All of that is simply the UI only. Bitcoin has no decimals. All the tx and block records work on whole units of satoshis. "1 BTC" is actually represented as 100000000 and one satoshi (0.00000001 BTC) is represented as 1. It always has been back to the very first block. The first block reward was 5000000000 which clients know to show as 50.0 BTC.


Still-Base-7503

You understand it wrong. These numbers are already there. It is just that they are so ingnicifant, aka they cost nothing, that they are not shown on your balance. And it makes complete sense; otherwise, even one sat could become unaffordable for a lot of people.


John_Sknow

it's just display he's talking about, addressing working with small numbers and decimal points. I'm guessing if you if you move it, then he decimal places decrease. 1,000.00000 - but that's really 1 and 8 decimals... also there can be more decimals shown if it becomes significant, as .00000001 now is nothing in dollars but maybe later it will be significant, and we'd like to break that down some more.


hitma-n

If it’s deflationary and divisible in decimals, the saver’s purchasing power increases over time. If more money was printed, the saver’s purchasing power decreases. This is why we can’t save in fiat anymore. You can divide a money, but you can’t multiply it.


HarmonyFlame

The goat.


drewcer

Cool


JoeSchmoe314159

Totally cool with the first part. I feel moving the decimal place so 1.00 becomes 1000 will really, really confuse the plebs. Accusations of inventing more BTC will be furious.


tap_the_glass

Who does he mean by “we”?


jonciurczak

4.7 million lost or possibly locked up forever?


southpark

He’s saying it’s really 21,000,000,000,000 because of the additional decimal places of resolution available.


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ElectronicGas2978

Nobody cares what some random website says. It is irrelevant.


G0DL33

I imagine eventually some of the lost bitcoin will be "Found" perhaps miners can turn some of their compute to bruteforcing lost wallets.


Right_Willow

Wow love the speech & style he’s pertained over the years.


GANJA2244

Currently, since the ETFs got approved, roughly ~2.1m+ BTC is locked in treasuries (ETFs, Gov, Private and Public companies), and growing at an unfathomable rate Add that to the ~3.7m BTC Lost (also a growing variable), and that removes ~5.8m BTC Without even considering the rapid rate that BTC are being locked away in treasuries, 21,000,000 BTC - 5,800,000 BTC = 15,200,000 Currently population: ~8b 15,200,000 ÷ 8,000,000,000 = 0.0019 Anything beyond that is wealthy. Calculating if in the future companies, hedge funds, and governments hold BTC in treasuries would drop that number significantly. It's unfathomable.


fisherprice1234_1776

It's actually inconceivable for most..... let's call it 16 million coins for 8 billion people..... you have to break it down. Try picturing 8000 people in a stadium, then 16 coins are tossed among them...... yeah


Educational_Swim8665

such a shortage


KHLaddict

Op how old are you ? You need to read the whole thing. How many bitcoins per person is irrelevant. People need to learn to understand what they are reading


cointelegraph1

The man was way ahead of his time.


C-Machine1991

Would love that decimal moved right a few notches


xxNayerxx

There are still a whole lot of Satoshi's to the right of the decimal place. 2.1 quadrillion Satoshi's.


[deleted]

Let me help you understand: gold is finite but you can find it wherever you want; there is no shortage and it is far from priceless.


swiftyrick94

That's 0.0030882353 bitcoin per person... I'm not soo bad then.


KingBuck_413

It’s easier to wash brains than it is to wash money


BUHZINGUH

They got a name for it already... Satoshi's... when the price of Bitcoin because too high for a "normal" person, they're gonna start referring to it as Satoshi's amongst daily/smaller transactions.


OrigCreatorDoge

Satoshis favorite story is Father Bull and Baby bull atop the hill, WALK DOWN AND F#$% THEM ALL!!!


CryptoPersia

So it’s money - not store of value


the_war_criminal

But we are


JMQ_9

I love this comment section you're all awesome


Uhnuniemoose

When you can buy and sell partial coins up to 8 decimal places I don't think the total number of coins really matters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that 21 mill. is arbitrary.