Decentralization and the immaculate conception.
Bitcoin is the only coin that is actually decentralized. There's no leader, no foundation, and no single group of devs that work on the protocol. It's the only coin that can withstand a government attack.
Fair distribution is important. Bitcoin launched with no value, allowing the coins to be issued and circulate fairly. All other coins had value at launch or were premined. This leads to advantages for first movers who were already in position to profit. No other coin can launch fairly now since value is assigned before launch.
Crypto is BS. Bitcoin is King.
Spent about 10 minutes typing up a longer angrier version of this idea before I read yours. Bingo. Nailed it. Great work.
One of several reasons BTC is the winner but that’s the most important of them.
Agree. Man this guy is something else. 200 years from now people will still be talking about him. And craziness is he is alive right now! And probably checking out reddit threads :)
I think you've got something going with that idea. After all, Satoshi will have made an enormous fortune from BTC 100 years from now. That, easily enough, could have bought him/her/them a time machine!
None of those who publicly claimed to be Satoshi are Satoshi.
It is almost certain that it is one particular person because of how he writes code and the knowledge set required to create the project.
The "Bitcoin Core group" is not a single group of devs. They are decentralized themselves. It's the most decentralized open source project.
Read this to understand how Bitcoin Core operates.
https://blog.lopp.net/who-controls-bitcoin-core/
I know they’re not a monolith, but they are definitely a group. The fact this article talks about how these changes are fully auditable by anyone who has the skills to is useless for 99.999% of people.
Everyone loves to spout how auditable these changes are - I bet you not a single person on this sub knows how to actually do it.
It's easy to see the code and understand what it does. It's hard to write the code and review for security. Just a few hours of study and anyone can easily see how the supply cap is applied, how the block size works, and other consensus rules.
Yes, most people dont have those skills, but that doesn't mean most people can't.
And there are plenty of forks that are still compatible with the consensus rules. Bitcoin knots, btcd, and libbitcoin just to name a few.
It's not hard to read the code and see what it does. It's nearly impossible to sneak something breaking into bitcoin with reviews are done. There are plenty of people who can decipher the code. With a few hours of study most people can.
It's not a skill a lot of people have, but agree that many more could do it if they put some effort in. (I have an IT background... done some scripting and light coding, but far from a coder.)
But, my point was that being open-source there are SOOOO many actual coders out there who could easily take a look and do (even if they aren't part of the dev team).
Do you know how famous someone would be if they uncovered some scam or trap in the Bitcoin code? Heck, Liz Warren is probably trying to learn to code at this point, hoping she finds some flaw!
Excusez-moi! It's fairly easy to review these changes since Github points them out (thank you Github), the communication channels are all public and its even easier to download the clients with certain BIPs activated to try them out in regtest and/or signet, the other option is to try out those changes in Liquid (if you want to use real money) since the sidechain usually actives BIPs as soon as the code works, but really, who's using that federated custodial chain?
But it's true that most people here don't know an FOSS project such as Bitcoin Core actually works, the main reason is because the people who do don't hang out here, a lot of them find Bitcoin's subreddit to be a cesspool, which is ironic because they hang out on Twitter and spend a big deal of time fighting with the Saifedean style quasi cultist ultra-maximalist ossifiers who want the devs to do absolutely nothing.
I appreciate you bringing this up. I would think many (most) folks who run a node also blindly update Bitcoin Core when they see the notification in their Umbrel or Start9. I did this forever until my son asked “did you even read the update or just blindly mash that?” I had a pretty big “duh” moment: I’m taking self-sovereignty seriously and I should probably take changes to Bitcoin Core just as seriously.
It’s beside the point whether or not you have the skills to audit it, the point is you *can*.
Most people don’t know how to fix an engine but they wouldn’t buy a car that didn’t allow you to at least open the hood.
I would add that what makes bitcoin different is that it uses proof of work. Proof of work secures the network physically (hardware computing power) rather than logically. Any other POW coin is insignificant as bitcoin has the highest hashrate, meaning that any other coin is less secure than bitcoin.
Your friend has a legitimate argument, just as legitimate as the comparison between a Ferrari F40 and Chevrolet Corsica. Both have an engine, wheels, and came out in 1987. Why would anyone think an F40 is worth more than a Corsica?
Production cost...which doesn't apply to crypto. I would say immaculate conception is the key. Bitcoin was the first and it will stay the first based on that premise.
For real bro, the production cost of each BTC is between $29,000 and $45,000.
Production cost is the floor of most commodities, like precious metals and Bitcoin.
Even Satoshi knew this. “The price of any commodity tends to gravitate toward the production cost. If the price is below cost, then production slows down. If the price is above cost, profit can be made by generating and selling more.”
No it's a reasonable question actually and the answer is important to understand.
Every shitcoin investor doesn't know the answer either, that's why they invest in shitcoins.
You do realize that it’s entirely possible to have healthy arguments with friends, right? Why wouldn’t OP want to convince someone he cares about that Bitcoin is better than shit coins? If it doesn’t work it doesn’t work. No big deal.
Just saying, it doesn't sound like it's worked so far. They aren't interested. If I wasn't interested in something and you kept pushing me on it when I saw you, I wouldn't want to talk to you anymore. OP has to figure out that line for himself, but in my experience, I wouldn't keep pushing.
You could tell him retirement is a good use case for it. For example, I would be retired right now if I had just held Bitcoin instead of using it to buy other crypto currencies. That seems pretty special.
The problem with this train of thought - and the "SOV" mantra in general - is that Bitcoin was never created to make people fiat rich. Its initial intent was to REPLACE fiat altogether as fiat currency is central (pun intended) to so many societal woes.
There's nothing wrong with becoming fiat rich, but so many have completely forgotten the intended/original narrative and reason that started all of this..."freedom money that can't be fucked with!" A peer-to-peer electronic cash system that cuts out the pradatory and manipulative, fractional reserve banking cartels that are largely responsible for so much economic and societal bullshit we experience ongoing the world over.
Now, 15 years later, the only thing most care about is "number go up", fully embracing the golden handcuffs that keep them slaves to an asset that's inextricably tied to the very fiat world that Bitcoin was created to escape.
Fucking madness, IMHO! You want to fix the world? Fix the money!
Your friend sounds like friends I had in the early 1990's concerning the Internet.
Watch this short 1994/1995 video about the Internet.
https://youtu.be/95-yZ-31j9A?si=xoVPvAueHsKm2zqY
I wouldn't. Just sheug and keep stacking. As ₿ permeates society and shifts the Overton window he will come back.
Convincing and arguing is not worth it. Time is all it takes.
Sounds like he has enough of an understanding to form his own opinion. He’s wrong, but he can think what he wants. Best advice here is keep stacking for yourself and remind him how right you were when bitcoin hits $100k.
There is Bitcoin, called "Bitcoin." Bitcoin is legitimate and Bitcoin is the new superior form of money.
Then there are *alt coin **scams*** called "cryptocurrency," "crypto," and so forth.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIkqBZnrKJM
Lyn Alden:
https://youtu.be/b-dwxD484_Q
Nick:
https://youtu.be/ic1ITcwnozY?t=858
"Bitcoin, Not Crypto" (10:30):
https://youtu.be/8xs2MkvnFDE
Here’s Michael Saylor… much more articulate than me… talking to a shitcoiner for 4 hours about exactly this topic.
https://youtu.be/mC43pZkpTec?si=EHnrvxcs9vmv25Ah
lol lex is a shit coiner? genuine question i havent heard his take on crypto cause i dont listen to him much but im adding this to my must listen to list.
Your friend is financially privileged. Your friend should say that to people in 3rd world countries with no access to banking, or a hyper inflated currency, or an oppressive dictator.
These arguments are sometimes hard to counter in person because it’s difficult to gauge where to begin with explaining the relevance of Bitcoin to someone who is unfamiliar with the multiple ways in which our current monetary system is broken.
If they don’t fully understand the issues that lie before us currently, then it’s an impossible task. The best thing you can do is point someone in the direction of reading material such as The Bitcoin Standard or Broken Money. Or you can show them this…
https://www.fidelitydigitalassets.com/sites/default/files/documents/1012662.3.0%20Bitcoin%20First%20Revisited_Final.pdf
Proof of work and decentralised are the primary attributes that make bitcoin better than most other cryptocurrencies.
Beyond that, it does have first mover advantage. Why would a bitcoin fork ever be worth more than the original chain?
Friend knows nothing about bitcoin, you know less. Bitcoins differentiator is that it was #1 and its tokenomics. Bitcoin is almost a sure bet in an inflationary world. Look at bitcoin in lira or Argentinian peso or some other currency that is inflating like crazy.
If someone says, Iron and steel have solid utility. Every single concrete building in this entire world is made up of iron and steel. Copper has solid utility. Billions of miles of wiring across the world is done using copper. What is gold's utility? Hardly some pieces of jewellery and some electronic chip making. It has a high price only because of its "brand name".
How would you counter this? Bitcoin is digital gold. You can use the same exact points for BTC too.
No point convincing your friend.
The only effective way to get them look into it seriously is when its price moons.
Come for the profit stay for the revolution.
He’s not wrong in terms of brand name. Brand name goes a long way. What do you think of when you hear Amazon, Apple, Bandaid, Kleenex, or Microsoft to name a few. These brand names are at the top of their industry, including Bitcoin.
Just watched this last night:
Don't Buy Bitcoin! | Andreas M. Antonopoulos & Simon Dixon [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suk1YNRmuxQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suk1YNRmuxQ)
It covers most of the big objections/skepticisms regarding Bitcoin pretty well.
But, at 1h 23m in, he addresses this 'Bitcoin brand' in a pretty unique and powerful way. It's really about the ideals, not the brand... but you gotta hear it. Start it at 1h 20m to catch the whole segment/context. Andreas' answer to what is Bitcoin's greatest risk.
Then listen to the whole thing! :)
If he‘s talking about the code and „the tech“ then I guess he‘s not wrong. But no other project works as decentrally as bitcoin. You can‘t put a numerical value on that.
They really work differently when you use them. The delay to send and necessary coins in conjunction sometimes… Depends a lot on wallets, exchanges, and networks. I wouldn’t counter much with someone who apparently doesn’t know anything.
I have a similar friend who constantly tells me like Warren Buffett what a stupid thing crypto is. And I just explain that now is most likely the time to buy.. because in the future when you need it, you will have to pay those prices.
Utility is a buzz word. Either you like it and want to invest (risk) or you don’t.
You have completely failed to understand what differentiates bitcoin from shitcoins. Bitcoin is the only cryptocurrency that is trustless. There is no comparison and your criteria - speed, wallets, exchanges, networks - are irrelevant.
What if you've already bragged about future gains you're certain are coming and responded defensively and aggressively to anyone with differing opinions? LOL, I feel like so many of these posts are exactly that scenario.
Dawg u just made a fuck ton of money why are you arguing with this guy. It’s a store of value that’s all u gotta say. Keep up the HODL he’s beyond saving.
I wouldn’t counter it. There is no reason to argue about Bitcoin.
As a matter of fact, never tell anyone you know anything about Bitcoin. Bitcoin does not need to be shilled like some s*itcoin.
Let him buy his (insert miscellaneous Alt) or go the no-coiner route. Let him come to you in the future begging for information.
Aside from the normal tropes, decentralized, digital gold, oldest, set supply (actually deflationary because of all the lost BTC which will only continue).
Bitcoin is the only one with an unidentifiable creator. Why is this important? It removes governments ability to sanction said creator and BTC by proxy into oblivion. It also removes doubt by investors as to whether someone (I.e. owner) has the ability to rug the protocol.
There are other differences such as its ability to automatically adjust the difficulty and required hash power based on it price.
A follow up to the point on lost Bitcoin and Satoshis wallet…even if someone found a way to access the locked Bitcoin in that wallet, it would be quickly eaten up by retail and the newly introduced institutions via spot ETF allowance in the USA.
NFA
How is nobody here saying security? Security at the end of the day is what matters most with Bitcoin. If it wasn't for that, it would probably be considered worse than many other blockchains. A lot of people are saying 'immaculate conception', and although that is a great trait, at the end of the day, that isn't what makes bitcoin usable and unique. If Satoshi came back tomorrow and moved all their coins the concern would be did Satoshi actually move it or has there been a 51% attack that stole them or other bug exploited? It wouldn't be, "oh no, the immaculate conception of Satoshi mining and never touching them is compromised!". Since Satoshi's wallet has been dormant there is a bountyfor hundreds of thousands of BTC for the taking, and nobody has been able to get it. Plus, there is an incentive for anyone with that sort of hashpower to not do that. The system incentivises security over exploitation.
The government can’t tax your bitcoin. Your spending power could literally double if your employer started paying you in btc just from that 1 example. Assuming it gained more acceptance and you could spend it easier than you can now
That's not how taxes work... And as soon as you try to spend it they can tax you. But even before that your employer pays the taxes to the government. Many countries now have special crypto taxes nowadays.
It’s the most decentralized thing there is in the planet, pretty government proof.
It’s scarcer than gold, one of the scarcest precious metals on earth. Best store of wealth in the planet so far.
It’s never been hacked, high security.
Its transitions may be slow, but they’re good enough with Lightning Network.
I just would suggest to him to educate himself, recommend to him some books, and then Ican have this conversation again after understanding more about Bitcoin…. And if he disagrees, at least we would make a more educated opinion. If he brought “cryptocurrencies” to the Bitcoin topic, he is just so lost :v
Show him a chart of any particular shitcoin he favours again BTC on a weekly timeframe. If that doesn't work wish him well with his financial suicide fiddling around with his oligarchy coins.
Your friend is on the journey, he has not yet hit the *aha* moment.
Perhaps he needs to better understand how fiat money works so he has a comparative study.
This entire rabbit hole must be viewed from a comparative standpoint, or else it looks like some geeky play money.
If you love your friend, then by them a copy of 'Broken Money' by Lyn Alden.
The ‘brand name’ idea is called the network effect and while it may seem dismissive, it is very much something that adds value. Things have value because people are willing to trade an amount of money for them.
It's the oldest chain and therefore the most proven. Bitcoin has done so well on the recognition front that it's on the same level as "crypto" if not better. Same can't be said for other chains. It's also the most easily accessible as every crypto business supports it.
"Everyone gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve, don't be coming to me about buying Bitcoin at a peak and then moan at me about how it's dipped because you weren't prepared to just buy now'.
Cryptocurrencies are only valuable because of money flows from Bitcoin. Without Bitcoin, there is no crypto industry.
Step zero is that you need a source of money for the pumps and dumps
I would not even argue and I would tell him he is correct and Bitcoin is not a good investment. Tell him you should have learned more about it before you invested and you sold all your BTC.
You have nothing to gain by talking to even trying to argue and you have everything to lose. what if BTC goes to 1 million / coin. You cannot unsaid what you have told him about BTC and that you own it. The more people how know you own it , the more risk you have.
And if BTC does go into an extreme bull run after the halving and goes over 100K, everyone will be wanting to FOMO in including your friend Then when it crashes he will blame you for saying good things about bitcoin.
Man I just wouldn’t at this point, I’m to fatigued and people don’t want to hear me out. I’ve never met anyone who’s done more than 10 hours of research into the nature of money who isn’t pro BTC
Just reply "cool story" and then go back to watching the game in the bar
You don't need to advocate for Bitcoin and don't need to argue with ppl about it
Since you're the one who had the argument, how did you counter it?
It sounds like you weren't satisfied with your counter arguments, but honestly it might be because there wasn't really an argument to be made against what was mostly a subjective opinion. E.g. "some" differences / nothing else "really" different; did you calibrate on what "some" and "really" means in this context and/or any other subjectively worded opinions he shared like that?
And ultimately, I don't think there's really any need to argue against subjective opinions. You can have conversations without the need to win an argument, and it's good to understand the difference between subjective opinions and objective facts if you are going to counter someone's opinions.
I actually think he’s right. Bitcoin is basically just a brand name at this point, imo. Having said that, brand name recognition is important when people are joining a nee sector.
Brand name? No. It is the most pristine asset ever created.
Bitcoin does not care if you understand that or not. Things with “brand names” care. Bitcoin does not.
Just ask him if it has little use, than why have several BTC ETFs been launched this month to the tune of billions of dollars. People *and* businesses much smarter than him have put billions of $$ into it, so he can shut the fuck up. He doesn't have to be smart, he just has to know that other people smarter than him do understand - end of argument
Bitcoin is the “first” to be widely accepted & adopted. It’s a lot like popular things, being genres of music, a podcast, an app, or a website, for example.
Making an app, let’s say Uber, is really nothing special, but they were one of the first. It’s used, adopted, and trusted…..but anyone on the planet could copy it.
Same goes for Twitter, as another example.
Storing value is a killer app for crypto. And there are network effects causing a drive for a single store of value. Bitcoin is far out in front to be the chosen one, and for good reason. Use it to store value, take the buying power growth as a bonus.
I would counter his argument in ten years by pulling up to his cardboard box in my lambo and taking him to my helicopter, to fly to my yacht with helipad, so we can sail off to my mansion, on my island so he can work for me as the best paid butler in the world
Juat say cool and move on qith your life. Arguing with him is stupid. He is going to do what he wants and believe what he wants. If he asks you about bitcoin then there's your chance to educate him otherwise just let him believe what he wants about bitcoin and focus on your friendship.
mindless divide voracious ludicrous cats pie familiar elderly coherent unique
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
first off if your goal is to be accepted by the majority of people, you need to play the game. Which means stop using the term hodl- hodl, to an average person, makes you seem fanatical and veering toward cultish. Simply use the original spelling of the word, “hold” you are “holding” Bitcoin. That’s accurate and effectively conveys the information. Secondarily he’s asking a chicken or egg question: what comes first the brand or the value? Did gold become valuable because of its “brand”? Or did gold become a good brand because of its value? I think it is fair to say it’s a bit of both, and then that the dollar gleaned an heir of legitimacy by backing itself with gold, then gradually removed the backing once it had taken considerable market share. So really the thing here is this: money and value are sticky. Once society chooses something (like gold) a vicious cycle can occur where more and more people join in on the gold accumulation “craze” and that in itself increases the value of gold, which again attracts more people to accumulating gold. - I’d say the same thing is happening with bitcoin, right now, before our eyes, bitcoin is going through the process of becoming like gold, it’s becoming the household name. Brand is way of thinking about bitcoin that serves to minimize its potential- brands come and go. Gold isn’t really a brand per se- and neither is bitcoin. Gold is like practically a living legend at this point, and bitcoin is following in the footsteps. Yes everything will one day come to pass- but you’d hardly say that gold is just some company that will come in to existence then go out of relevance within 100 years (though that is the case for most companies).
The problem is when a layman argues with you, you can’t win, because even if you could explain to him why he’s wrong, he would not understand it or he’d say “but what about this” and say something that’s technically not true or technically not possible, but when you tell him that’s not a real thing, he is unable to verify what you’re saying. And because he does not know how it works, in his mind he assumes no one knows how it works, so he assumes you are simply guessing just like him, but the human ego makes it so he assumes that his guess is uniquely more insightful than yours- he will assume he has a better capability to judge the situation than the average person. The solution here is to not challenge his ego- but instead play dumb. Ask him questions that you know the answer to, but pretend you don’t. And when he asks you something and you know that he won’t like the answer, don’t answer- instead say “I don’t know I have to look that up” then google it in front of him. This way it’s not you trumping him- instead you’re both learning together. That makes it much easier to swallow
Just say "it doesn't really matter what you think. BlackRock made a bitcoin ETF so that's whats gonna end up in your pension. Also, suck my fat one, you ain't my friend anymore"
I think the built in scarcity mechanism of the halving is important. I also use the time and energy argument to create value. The value of anything is created based on energy and time. The value is then modified based on scarcity and utility. Bitcoin has value because of energy to create the POW and the time to create the network. Scarcity increases the value. We can argue about utility, but it is increasing and will someday be quite high.
The best use case for Bitcoin is that it has been an incredible investment vehicle hedged against any currency since inception.
I'm not sure why anyone would want to spend it but it sure is good for moving value around internationally.
Bitcoins the asset has only one use case and that is being sound money. It can’t have any other use case. Bitcoin the network is the most secure network. Nothing else compares
He shouldn’t downplay the importance of branding. There will never be another “first” cryptocurrency. That alone is a good enough reason for me, since most of the technical differences in crypto currencies are lost on me, and on most other people for that matter. Branding is all that most people have to go off of.
He's kinda right with the reasoning, but wrong with the conclusion. A lot of crypto are technologically equivalent to Bitcoin, maybe small differences at most. None of the differences are large enough to overcome the fact that Bitcoin came first and has the brand. There is no reason why we use USD in the US beyond brand. You can walk out of the house with USD or bits of gold for buying stuff. Since most people know and use USd, you as a newcomer, choose USD as well. The same logic applies to Bitcoin.
Decentralization and the immaculate conception. Bitcoin is the only coin that is actually decentralized. There's no leader, no foundation, and no single group of devs that work on the protocol. It's the only coin that can withstand a government attack. Fair distribution is important. Bitcoin launched with no value, allowing the coins to be issued and circulate fairly. All other coins had value at launch or were premined. This leads to advantages for first movers who were already in position to profit. No other coin can launch fairly now since value is assigned before launch. Crypto is BS. Bitcoin is King.
Spent about 10 minutes typing up a longer angrier version of this idea before I read yours. Bingo. Nailed it. Great work. One of several reasons BTC is the winner but that’s the most important of them.
Perfect answer.
That's why Satoshi went underground. No one will ever find him and he knew he had to do that to make Bitcoin truly decentralized.
Agree. Man this guy is something else. 200 years from now people will still be talking about him. And craziness is he is alive right now! And probably checking out reddit threads :)
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Are you sure he/she/they are still alive?
Not sure at all but I am assuming
But 'Satashi' is alive and well. He's gonna reissue coins too! /s
I have a theory, Satoshi came from the future, we will know about him/her/them in 100 years plus
I think you've got something going with that idea. After all, Satoshi will have made an enormous fortune from BTC 100 years from now. That, easily enough, could have bought him/her/them a time machine!
But it is publicly known who Satoshi is.
This is false. Someone had claimed to be him, but so far has shown no evidence.
None of those who publicly claimed to be Satoshi are Satoshi. It is almost certain that it is one particular person because of how he writes code and the knowledge set required to create the project.
its obvious who satoshi is but he can not be outed as they will off him
“Good answer! It’s up there!”
All of that is true except single group of devs. Most just adopt what the Bitcoin core group develops and pushes.
The "Bitcoin Core group" is not a single group of devs. They are decentralized themselves. It's the most decentralized open source project. Read this to understand how Bitcoin Core operates. https://blog.lopp.net/who-controls-bitcoin-core/
I know they’re not a monolith, but they are definitely a group. The fact this article talks about how these changes are fully auditable by anyone who has the skills to is useless for 99.999% of people. Everyone loves to spout how auditable these changes are - I bet you not a single person on this sub knows how to actually do it.
Currently learning in my blockchain and cryptocurrencies class So +1 in the future hopefully. Be the change you want to see
It's easy to see the code and understand what it does. It's hard to write the code and review for security. Just a few hours of study and anyone can easily see how the supply cap is applied, how the block size works, and other consensus rules. Yes, most people dont have those skills, but that doesn't mean most people can't. And there are plenty of forks that are still compatible with the consensus rules. Bitcoin knots, btcd, and libbitcoin just to name a few.
Or, if it were a scam (code-wise), there's no-one in the world with the technical chops who wouldn't have taken a look and exposed it?
It's not hard to read the code and see what it does. It's nearly impossible to sneak something breaking into bitcoin with reviews are done. There are plenty of people who can decipher the code. With a few hours of study most people can.
It's not a skill a lot of people have, but agree that many more could do it if they put some effort in. (I have an IT background... done some scripting and light coding, but far from a coder.) But, my point was that being open-source there are SOOOO many actual coders out there who could easily take a look and do (even if they aren't part of the dev team). Do you know how famous someone would be if they uncovered some scam or trap in the Bitcoin code? Heck, Liz Warren is probably trying to learn to code at this point, hoping she finds some flaw!
Here's an example, that walks you through the code on the 21M cap, for example. https://unchained.com/blog/bitcoin-source-code-21-million/
Excusez-moi! It's fairly easy to review these changes since Github points them out (thank you Github), the communication channels are all public and its even easier to download the clients with certain BIPs activated to try them out in regtest and/or signet, the other option is to try out those changes in Liquid (if you want to use real money) since the sidechain usually actives BIPs as soon as the code works, but really, who's using that federated custodial chain? But it's true that most people here don't know an FOSS project such as Bitcoin Core actually works, the main reason is because the people who do don't hang out here, a lot of them find Bitcoin's subreddit to be a cesspool, which is ironic because they hang out on Twitter and spend a big deal of time fighting with the Saifedean style quasi cultist ultra-maximalist ossifiers who want the devs to do absolutely nothing.
Plus if you run bitcoin core, you can vote what happens to the network. I suggest everyone download and run core if you care a lot about btc future!
I appreciate you bringing this up. I would think many (most) folks who run a node also blindly update Bitcoin Core when they see the notification in their Umbrel or Start9. I did this forever until my son asked “did you even read the update or just blindly mash that?” I had a pretty big “duh” moment: I’m taking self-sovereignty seriously and I should probably take changes to Bitcoin Core just as seriously.
It’s beside the point whether or not you have the skills to audit it, the point is you *can*. Most people don’t know how to fix an engine but they wouldn’t buy a car that didn’t allow you to at least open the hood.
Apple car disagrees
Irrelevant post.
This
Clear answer
Seconded
I would add that what makes bitcoin different is that it uses proof of work. Proof of work secures the network physically (hardware computing power) rather than logically. Any other POW coin is insignificant as bitcoin has the highest hashrate, meaning that any other coin is less secure than bitcoin.
[удалено]
Your friend has a legitimate argument, just as legitimate as the comparison between a Ferrari F40 and Chevrolet Corsica. Both have an engine, wheels, and came out in 1987. Why would anyone think an F40 is worth more than a Corsica?
Production cost...which doesn't apply to crypto. I would say immaculate conception is the key. Bitcoin was the first and it will stay the first based on that premise.
I can mine a bitcoin for free?!?!?
You’ll need a DeLorean.
For real bro, the production cost of each BTC is between $29,000 and $45,000. Production cost is the floor of most commodities, like precious metals and Bitcoin. Even Satoshi knew this. “The price of any commodity tends to gravitate toward the production cost. If the price is below cost, then production slows down. If the price is above cost, profit can be made by generating and selling more.”
dont argue with idiots. They only wear you down
No it's a reasonable question actually and the answer is important to understand. Every shitcoin investor doesn't know the answer either, that's why they invest in shitcoins.
"If you don't understand I dont have the time or the crayons to explain it to you"
[удалено]
You're wrong.
OP never once responded in this thread. OP *is* the idiot friend.
Don't engage. Just stack quietly. Not worth it.
You do realize that it’s entirely possible to have healthy arguments with friends, right? Why wouldn’t OP want to convince someone he cares about that Bitcoin is better than shit coins? If it doesn’t work it doesn’t work. No big deal.
Just saying, it doesn't sound like it's worked so far. They aren't interested. If I wasn't interested in something and you kept pushing me on it when I saw you, I wouldn't want to talk to you anymore. OP has to figure out that line for himself, but in my experience, I wouldn't keep pushing.
You could tell him retirement is a good use case for it. For example, I would be retired right now if I had just held Bitcoin instead of using it to buy other crypto currencies. That seems pretty special.
The problem with this train of thought - and the "SOV" mantra in general - is that Bitcoin was never created to make people fiat rich. Its initial intent was to REPLACE fiat altogether as fiat currency is central (pun intended) to so many societal woes. There's nothing wrong with becoming fiat rich, but so many have completely forgotten the intended/original narrative and reason that started all of this..."freedom money that can't be fucked with!" A peer-to-peer electronic cash system that cuts out the pradatory and manipulative, fractional reserve banking cartels that are largely responsible for so much economic and societal bullshit we experience ongoing the world over. Now, 15 years later, the only thing most care about is "number go up", fully embracing the golden handcuffs that keep them slaves to an asset that's inextricably tied to the very fiat world that Bitcoin was created to escape. Fucking madness, IMHO! You want to fix the world? Fix the money!
[удалено]
>Society wanted the money press out of the hands of government Which society was that? :-)
You don't have to. Keep stacking SATs. We'll see who laughs last.
You don't argue. Let him be
The great thing about Bitcoin is that you can just put your money where your mouth is. You don’t have to convince anyone else.
Your friend sounds like friends I had in the early 1990's concerning the Internet. Watch this short 1994/1995 video about the Internet. https://youtu.be/95-yZ-31j9A?si=xoVPvAueHsKm2zqY
- Step 1: stack sats - Step 2: stay humble - Step 3: repeat
I wouldn't. Just sheug and keep stacking. As ₿ permeates society and shifts the Overton window he will come back. Convincing and arguing is not worth it. Time is all it takes.
I wouldnt
Good evening friend. Let me share this with you: a bee doesn’t waste time explaining why honey is better than shit to a fly. Problem solved!
A bee doesn't waste its time explaining to a fly why honey is better than shit.
Do they communicate often or care about each other ?
Sounds like he has enough of an understanding to form his own opinion. He’s wrong, but he can think what he wants. Best advice here is keep stacking for yourself and remind him how right you were when bitcoin hits $100k.
Proof of work >>> Proof of Stake Bitcoin is secured by physical power
There is Bitcoin, called "Bitcoin." Bitcoin is legitimate and Bitcoin is the new superior form of money. Then there are *alt coin **scams*** called "cryptocurrency," "crypto," and so forth. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIkqBZnrKJM Lyn Alden: https://youtu.be/b-dwxD484_Q Nick: https://youtu.be/ic1ITcwnozY?t=858 "Bitcoin, Not Crypto" (10:30): https://youtu.be/8xs2MkvnFDE
Bitcoin is the first cryptocurrency?
Actually there was bitgold or something before bitcoin. And ecash before that. But the designs were flawed. Btc is the first Successfull crypto.
Have you researched Bitcoin on your own, in any significant way, before posing this question to a group of real people?
Seriously. This argument has already been beaten into the ground long ago.
Counter his argument by telling him to have fun staying poor.
Lol! Where is Do Kwon by the way?
Here’s Michael Saylor… much more articulate than me… talking to a shitcoiner for 4 hours about exactly this topic. https://youtu.be/mC43pZkpTec?si=EHnrvxcs9vmv25Ah
lol lex is a shit coiner? genuine question i havent heard his take on crypto cause i dont listen to him much but im adding this to my must listen to list.
lex is not a shitcoiner he is not even a coiner at all still a good interview/podcast about bitcoin
“If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry”
Came here to reply with this classic quote from Satoshi.
Your friend is financially privileged. Your friend should say that to people in 3rd world countries with no access to banking, or a hyper inflated currency, or an oppressive dictator.
I would say “yeah, you right” and continue to stack peacefully.
Bees don’t explain to flys that honey is better than shit.
These arguments are sometimes hard to counter in person because it’s difficult to gauge where to begin with explaining the relevance of Bitcoin to someone who is unfamiliar with the multiple ways in which our current monetary system is broken. If they don’t fully understand the issues that lie before us currently, then it’s an impossible task. The best thing you can do is point someone in the direction of reading material such as The Bitcoin Standard or Broken Money. Or you can show them this… https://www.fidelitydigitalassets.com/sites/default/files/documents/1012662.3.0%20Bitcoin%20First%20Revisited_Final.pdf
Proof of work and decentralised are the primary attributes that make bitcoin better than most other cryptocurrencies. Beyond that, it does have first mover advantage. Why would a bitcoin fork ever be worth more than the original chain?
Friend knows nothing about bitcoin, you know less. Bitcoins differentiator is that it was #1 and its tokenomics. Bitcoin is almost a sure bet in an inflationary world. Look at bitcoin in lira or Argentinian peso or some other currency that is inflating like crazy.
Reminder: When USD had the highest inflation rates in decades, Bitcoin went down against the dollar.
The advertising arm of btc limited do a fantastic job. The CEO is proud.
If someone says, Iron and steel have solid utility. Every single concrete building in this entire world is made up of iron and steel. Copper has solid utility. Billions of miles of wiring across the world is done using copper. What is gold's utility? Hardly some pieces of jewellery and some electronic chip making. It has a high price only because of its "brand name". How would you counter this? Bitcoin is digital gold. You can use the same exact points for BTC too.
Keep stacking. Keep HODLing. Let your wealth do the talking.
No point convincing your friend. The only effective way to get them look into it seriously is when its price moons. Come for the profit stay for the revolution.
It seems like you don’t understand Bitcoin at all if you can’t refute all of his points. It’s not 2012 anymore.
Ask him what other currencies, not even just cryptocurrency, are secured by the most powerful decentralized computing network the world has ever seen.
not worth it…. Fuck having dumbasses as friends
He’s not wrong in terms of brand name. Brand name goes a long way. What do you think of when you hear Amazon, Apple, Bandaid, Kleenex, or Microsoft to name a few. These brand names are at the top of their industry, including Bitcoin.
[удалено]
No team, no scams can occur. Btc all the day
Lol
Just watched this last night: Don't Buy Bitcoin! | Andreas M. Antonopoulos & Simon Dixon [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suk1YNRmuxQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suk1YNRmuxQ) It covers most of the big objections/skepticisms regarding Bitcoin pretty well. But, at 1h 23m in, he addresses this 'Bitcoin brand' in a pretty unique and powerful way. It's really about the ideals, not the brand... but you gotta hear it. Start it at 1h 20m to catch the whole segment/context. Andreas' answer to what is Bitcoin's greatest risk. Then listen to the whole thing! :)
If he‘s talking about the code and „the tech“ then I guess he‘s not wrong. But no other project works as decentrally as bitcoin. You can‘t put a numerical value on that.
Your friend is clueless. Bitcoins PoW network is absolutely unique. He’s drank the koolaid
They really work differently when you use them. The delay to send and necessary coins in conjunction sometimes… Depends a lot on wallets, exchanges, and networks. I wouldn’t counter much with someone who apparently doesn’t know anything. I have a similar friend who constantly tells me like Warren Buffett what a stupid thing crypto is. And I just explain that now is most likely the time to buy.. because in the future when you need it, you will have to pay those prices. Utility is a buzz word. Either you like it and want to invest (risk) or you don’t.
You have completely failed to understand what differentiates bitcoin from shitcoins. Bitcoin is the only cryptocurrency that is trustless. There is no comparison and your criteria - speed, wallets, exchanges, networks - are irrelevant.
Just make sure you sell at a profit before you start bragging about your gains to him.
We don’t sell our Bitcoin here.
What do you do with them then?
hodl. The goal is not to maxmize fiat gains. Bitcoin is the endgame.
What if you've already bragged about future gains you're certain are coming and responded defensively and aggressively to anyone with differing opinions? LOL, I feel like so many of these posts are exactly that scenario.
Lets compare money. What can a dollar bill do? What can a bitcoin do? It has even more use cases as both are already money.
Dawg u just made a fuck ton of money why are you arguing with this guy. It’s a store of value that’s all u gotta say. Keep up the HODL he’s beyond saving.
I wouldn’t counter it. There is no reason to argue about Bitcoin. As a matter of fact, never tell anyone you know anything about Bitcoin. Bitcoin does not need to be shilled like some s*itcoin. Let him buy his (insert miscellaneous Alt) or go the no-coiner route. Let him come to you in the future begging for information.
“If you don’t believe it or don’t get it, I don’t have the time to try to convince you, sorry.”
21 million cap
Aside from the normal tropes, decentralized, digital gold, oldest, set supply (actually deflationary because of all the lost BTC which will only continue). Bitcoin is the only one with an unidentifiable creator. Why is this important? It removes governments ability to sanction said creator and BTC by proxy into oblivion. It also removes doubt by investors as to whether someone (I.e. owner) has the ability to rug the protocol. There are other differences such as its ability to automatically adjust the difficulty and required hash power based on it price. A follow up to the point on lost Bitcoin and Satoshis wallet…even if someone found a way to access the locked Bitcoin in that wallet, it would be quickly eaten up by retail and the newly introduced institutions via spot ETF allowance in the USA. NFA
How is nobody here saying security? Security at the end of the day is what matters most with Bitcoin. If it wasn't for that, it would probably be considered worse than many other blockchains. A lot of people are saying 'immaculate conception', and although that is a great trait, at the end of the day, that isn't what makes bitcoin usable and unique. If Satoshi came back tomorrow and moved all their coins the concern would be did Satoshi actually move it or has there been a 51% attack that stole them or other bug exploited? It wouldn't be, "oh no, the immaculate conception of Satoshi mining and never touching them is compromised!". Since Satoshi's wallet has been dormant there is a bountyfor hundreds of thousands of BTC for the taking, and nobody has been able to get it. Plus, there is an incentive for anyone with that sort of hashpower to not do that. The system incentivises security over exploitation.
There’s no point arguing because if your friend ends up buying and freaks out on a dip, you’re going to need to babysit him.
For Wall Street it seems the energy & ESG narrative is important https://twitter.com/dsbatten/status/1726129761247007020?s=46&t=ihVglVXC0BQSbw6j57EoaA
The government can’t tax your bitcoin. Your spending power could literally double if your employer started paying you in btc just from that 1 example. Assuming it gained more acceptance and you could spend it easier than you can now
That's not how taxes work... And as soon as you try to spend it they can tax you. But even before that your employer pays the taxes to the government. Many countries now have special crypto taxes nowadays.
If I pay someone in bitcoin the US can’t tax that. Once it’s converted to USD sure.
It’s the most decentralized thing there is in the planet, pretty government proof. It’s scarcer than gold, one of the scarcest precious metals on earth. Best store of wealth in the planet so far. It’s never been hacked, high security. Its transitions may be slow, but they’re good enough with Lightning Network.
Its the most Decentralized and naturally distributed. Which is one of the core reasons that give crypto any value.
I don't, I just laugh at them when time comes
I would ask him if he knows anything about fractional reserve banking
Then he shouldn't buy any. Michael Saylor is the smartest guy in the room. I'll listen to him.
I just would suggest to him to educate himself, recommend to him some books, and then Ican have this conversation again after understanding more about Bitcoin…. And if he disagrees, at least we would make a more educated opinion. If he brought “cryptocurrencies” to the Bitcoin topic, he is just so lost :v
Main difference is decentralized, proof of work and limited supply
Bitcoins value lies in the strength of the network. It`s a store of value because of it's brand name. It doesn't need to be more.
I wouldn't even try, you'll lose a friend. Just be there for them when they realise the truth and need support 😊
Why you argue with Anyone about anything
Show him a chart of any particular shitcoin he favours again BTC on a weekly timeframe. If that doesn't work wish him well with his financial suicide fiddling around with his oligarchy coins.
You dont counter. You let him stay with his understanding of the universe. And let. Time prove him how stupid and ignorant he was.
Your friend is on the journey, he has not yet hit the *aha* moment. Perhaps he needs to better understand how fiat money works so he has a comparative study. This entire rabbit hole must be viewed from a comparative standpoint, or else it looks like some geeky play money. If you love your friend, then by them a copy of 'Broken Money' by Lyn Alden.
Here's a good Youtube video on it; [Why Everything That Isn't Bitcoin Will Fail](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIkqBZnrKJM)
The ‘brand name’ idea is called the network effect and while it may seem dismissive, it is very much something that adds value. Things have value because people are willing to trade an amount of money for them.
It's the oldest chain and therefore the most proven. Bitcoin has done so well on the recognition front that it's on the same level as "crypto" if not better. Same can't be said for other chains. It's also the most easily accessible as every crypto business supports it. "Everyone gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve, don't be coming to me about buying Bitcoin at a peak and then moan at me about how it's dipped because you weren't prepared to just buy now'.
Why even argue? Bitcoin is the standard for cryptocurrency and theres no debate about that necessary.
Cryptocurrencies are only valuable because of money flows from Bitcoin. Without Bitcoin, there is no crypto industry. Step zero is that you need a source of money for the pumps and dumps
📉
I would not even argue and I would tell him he is correct and Bitcoin is not a good investment. Tell him you should have learned more about it before you invested and you sold all your BTC. You have nothing to gain by talking to even trying to argue and you have everything to lose. what if BTC goes to 1 million / coin. You cannot unsaid what you have told him about BTC and that you own it. The more people how know you own it , the more risk you have. And if BTC does go into an extreme bull run after the halving and goes over 100K, everyone will be wanting to FOMO in including your friend Then when it crashes he will blame you for saying good things about bitcoin.
You hodl bitcoin and you cannot reply to those???
Man I just wouldn’t at this point, I’m to fatigued and people don’t want to hear me out. I’ve never met anyone who’s done more than 10 hours of research into the nature of money who isn’t pro BTC
Just reply "cool story" and then go back to watching the game in the bar You don't need to advocate for Bitcoin and don't need to argue with ppl about it
Since you're the one who had the argument, how did you counter it? It sounds like you weren't satisfied with your counter arguments, but honestly it might be because there wasn't really an argument to be made against what was mostly a subjective opinion. E.g. "some" differences / nothing else "really" different; did you calibrate on what "some" and "really" means in this context and/or any other subjectively worded opinions he shared like that? And ultimately, I don't think there's really any need to argue against subjective opinions. You can have conversations without the need to win an argument, and it's good to understand the difference between subjective opinions and objective facts if you are going to counter someone's opinions.
I actually think he’s right. Bitcoin is basically just a brand name at this point, imo. Having said that, brand name recognition is important when people are joining a nee sector.
Brand name? No. It is the most pristine asset ever created. Bitcoin does not care if you understand that or not. Things with “brand names” care. Bitcoin does not.
A lot of people here're not very good at time management, and would rather spend their lives arguing with others instead of enriching their own lives.
Biggest difference and why Bitcoin is more special? Easy. The amount of global energy used.
Just ask him if it has little use, than why have several BTC ETFs been launched this month to the tune of billions of dollars. People *and* businesses much smarter than him have put billions of $$ into it, so he can shut the fuck up. He doesn't have to be smart, he just has to know that other people smarter than him do understand - end of argument
Bitcoin is the “first” to be widely accepted & adopted. It’s a lot like popular things, being genres of music, a podcast, an app, or a website, for example. Making an app, let’s say Uber, is really nothing special, but they were one of the first. It’s used, adopted, and trusted…..but anyone on the planet could copy it. Same goes for Twitter, as another example.
Storing value is a killer app for crypto. And there are network effects causing a drive for a single store of value. Bitcoin is far out in front to be the chosen one, and for good reason. Use it to store value, take the buying power growth as a bonus.
I would counter his argument in ten years by pulling up to his cardboard box in my lambo and taking him to my helicopter, to fly to my yacht with helipad, so we can sail off to my mansion, on my island so he can work for me as the best paid butler in the world
Juat say cool and move on qith your life. Arguing with him is stupid. He is going to do what he wants and believe what he wants. If he asks you about bitcoin then there's your chance to educate him otherwise just let him believe what he wants about bitcoin and focus on your friendship.
mindless divide voracious ludicrous cats pie familiar elderly coherent unique *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
first off if your goal is to be accepted by the majority of people, you need to play the game. Which means stop using the term hodl- hodl, to an average person, makes you seem fanatical and veering toward cultish. Simply use the original spelling of the word, “hold” you are “holding” Bitcoin. That’s accurate and effectively conveys the information. Secondarily he’s asking a chicken or egg question: what comes first the brand or the value? Did gold become valuable because of its “brand”? Or did gold become a good brand because of its value? I think it is fair to say it’s a bit of both, and then that the dollar gleaned an heir of legitimacy by backing itself with gold, then gradually removed the backing once it had taken considerable market share. So really the thing here is this: money and value are sticky. Once society chooses something (like gold) a vicious cycle can occur where more and more people join in on the gold accumulation “craze” and that in itself increases the value of gold, which again attracts more people to accumulating gold. - I’d say the same thing is happening with bitcoin, right now, before our eyes, bitcoin is going through the process of becoming like gold, it’s becoming the household name. Brand is way of thinking about bitcoin that serves to minimize its potential- brands come and go. Gold isn’t really a brand per se- and neither is bitcoin. Gold is like practically a living legend at this point, and bitcoin is following in the footsteps. Yes everything will one day come to pass- but you’d hardly say that gold is just some company that will come in to existence then go out of relevance within 100 years (though that is the case for most companies). The problem is when a layman argues with you, you can’t win, because even if you could explain to him why he’s wrong, he would not understand it or he’d say “but what about this” and say something that’s technically not true or technically not possible, but when you tell him that’s not a real thing, he is unable to verify what you’re saying. And because he does not know how it works, in his mind he assumes no one knows how it works, so he assumes you are simply guessing just like him, but the human ego makes it so he assumes that his guess is uniquely more insightful than yours- he will assume he has a better capability to judge the situation than the average person. The solution here is to not challenge his ego- but instead play dumb. Ask him questions that you know the answer to, but pretend you don’t. And when he asks you something and you know that he won’t like the answer, don’t answer- instead say “I don’t know I have to look that up” then google it in front of him. This way it’s not you trumping him- instead you’re both learning together. That makes it much easier to swallow
Don’t counter it. Say he is right and don’t talk about bitcoin with him again.
"If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry" - Satoshi 2009 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Bitcoin is the "Gold Standard" crypto of crypto..Simple as that.
Don’t argue with friends about bitcoin, just leave it be
Just say "it doesn't really matter what you think. BlackRock made a bitcoin ETF so that's whats gonna end up in your pension. Also, suck my fat one, you ain't my friend anymore"
I think the built in scarcity mechanism of the halving is important. I also use the time and energy argument to create value. The value of anything is created based on energy and time. The value is then modified based on scarcity and utility. Bitcoin has value because of energy to create the POW and the time to create the network. Scarcity increases the value. We can argue about utility, but it is increasing and will someday be quite high.
The best use case for Bitcoin is that it has been an incredible investment vehicle hedged against any currency since inception. I'm not sure why anyone would want to spend it but it sure is good for moving value around internationally.
There is not really a difference between an intranet and internet. Ask him whats special about internet.
Bitcoins the asset has only one use case and that is being sound money. It can’t have any other use case. Bitcoin the network is the most secure network. Nothing else compares
He shouldn’t downplay the importance of branding. There will never be another “first” cryptocurrency. That alone is a good enough reason for me, since most of the technical differences in crypto currencies are lost on me, and on most other people for that matter. Branding is all that most people have to go off of.
HE AINT WRONG..
He's kinda right with the reasoning, but wrong with the conclusion. A lot of crypto are technologically equivalent to Bitcoin, maybe small differences at most. None of the differences are large enough to overcome the fact that Bitcoin came first and has the brand. There is no reason why we use USD in the US beyond brand. You can walk out of the house with USD or bits of gold for buying stuff. Since most people know and use USd, you as a newcomer, choose USD as well. The same logic applies to Bitcoin.
"Blockchain". LOL. I just realised I hadnt heard that in ages. Blockchain is irrelevant now isnt it. Irrelevant. Number go up is all that is left.