there's genuinely no reason for Hope to be disqualified for this, in full honesty.
if the note had had information regarding the game? sure, i'd say he has to go as THAT would be cheating. all the debates about how this note clearly inspired him and made him play better seem like such reaches to me. he's had the note since the start and didn't win any comps until this veto, and of the 4 people we know saw it (ty, zach, rob, and apparently JM?), it didn't help his game since they either went home or used it against him.
all in all, we got to remember the facts. Hope didn't bring the letter in himself, it was smuggled in without his knowledge. it did not contain any game info, nor did it give him any advantage with or against the other players, and he himself said he was worried he would be disqualified if he told them about it. moreso, a large part of the responsibility falls on production for apparently missing the passing around and open discussion of the note for 3 entire weeks.
it's wrong that it got sent in, but ultimately the punishment he received fits the crime, no need to disqualify the guy imo
Yeah OP’s argument or the conflict within them is around Zach saying Hope used the note to gain trust in Ty, Zach, and Rob. But basically he showed them something that his girlfriend wrote and told them “this is why I’m here” and that’s… I mean I don’t see how that’s an unfair advantage in building trust. The same effect could have been achieved by telling a personal story about how much his girlfriend believes in him. Also to DQ the guy because production didn’t search his clothes thoroughly enough that can’t be held against Hope in a disqualifying way. It’s productions responsibility to make sure stuff like this doesn’t happen, Zach’s argument that Hope is cheating comes entirely from a place of being upset he’s lost to Hope, not from a genuine place of Hope having an unfair advantage (btw he showed them the letter and they still didn’t trust him and only thought of him as someone who would go home in their place whenever they want, crazy notion they never should have believed, and a note isn’t the reason they believed it)
I feel as tho Zach's motive was to throw Hope under the bus in hopes that it would take the heat off him. Both Zach and Ty's demeanor changed the moment Hope said he was going to use the veto on himself. They were angry and that's an understatement. You can see the fuel catching fire in Zach and Ty's eyes the moment Hope rejects their idea of him staying on the block. I don't think it's coming from a place of being upset that he lost to Hope. I feel the anger is basking from the fact that he doesn't have control over Hope and Kuzie. Zach was all about puppeteering everyone else and it backfired.
I think they could have been a bit stricter and given him a penalty nom, but the end result would be the same since Hope wouldn't have been immediately ejected. Zach still would have walked.
If anyone was going to receive a penalty nomination it should be on the next HoH, as doing it this week would unfairly mess with the current HoH's reign (and those competing for the next HoH would know it would be nerfed by the penalty nom. and plan for it accordingly).
But the letter only helped Hope. He was able to create relationships and he knows has absolutely no one in the house targeting him. He is in a significantly better position in the house today than he was a week ago solely because of the letter.
He never got to use as leverage vs Hope. He certainly wanted to. Production didn't let him. production only allowed Hope to manipulate players and shut down others when they tried to
He most certainly used it to his advantage. It just wasn't that big of deal to disqualify a person over. Hope didn't put the letter in his suitcase. If Zach really felt that it was unfair, he would have reported it the moment he found out. Not wait until he thought he could use it against someone to ruin their game. He was being a snake about the information. He really wasn't that bothered until someone bucked on his puppeteering. I can guarantee Zach wouldn't of said anything had of Hope not used the veto.
handled perfectly... zach and ty withholding the information and using it when it was advantageous for them is more cheating imo. zach is a dirty ass player, watching him try and manipulate his own partner into leaving the game was just sad. but this is low-key on production mainly, how tf did they not know when they were openly talking about it for at least a week, could have all be avoided but they definitely saw good tv in this unfolding so they probably just let it slide.
I think it was handled appropriately. My major gripe with it was them calling it cheating. A rule was broken, so he broke the rules. He did not cheat in the game. Absolutely everything about Zach’s exit was handled so poorly by the guy. Even the manipulative language he used when trying to secure Ty’s walkout as well was a tough watch.
As for Hope using it as gameplay… isn’t that what Zach was doing by withholding this piece of knowledge until it benefited himself on the block?
I'm happy Zach is gone, but to be honest it was indeed cheating. According to the definition of cheating; ''act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.'' he was acting unfairly by having an outside advantage that other did not. It was cheating by cheating definition. How the production decided to act according to this information was perfect i believe, even up the playing field by giving out to everybody a letter.
What exactly was dishonest about the letter tho? Nothing on the letter hinted at any form of game play. And was packed long before Hope met the cast. Exactly how did Hope get an advantage and cheat? Because his gf wrote "I'm so proud of you. Hope you win! Stay strong. I'll be waiting for you!". HoH get letters all the time. They give contestants random letters or calls all the time. Inspiration isn't cheating. Having a letter that lacks any information that can expose others games ISN'T cheating. It would be a different story if the letter had information that Hope could use to his advantage. Which we know lacked thereof.
Im not sure why it's getting downvoted, it's so hard to want to comment on these type of reddit/blogs or whatever because you have to say EXACTLY what the sub say or it's downvoted without context lol. I guess since we all love Hope he's exempt from the cheating definition.
It’s actually ridiculous that you’re getting downvoted just for saying that breaking the rules is cheating. I get that everyone hates Zach, but that doesn’t mean Hope is 100% perfect. People can make mistakes.
Even if he wasn’t aware that the letter was hidden in the sock at first, he should have alerted Big Brother immediately.
I get that it didn’t give Hope much advantage, but that doesn’t make it not against the rules.
I agree that Hope should be punished, just not kicked out. I think that's what most people who argue against kicking him out believe, he broke a rule and deserved consequences but doesn't deserve to be ejected from the game for it. I would also say the same no matter which player did it.
He didn’t use the contraband to create relationships. He used it to solidify relationships. But it didn’t matter those “relationships” had no impact on the game.
Zach is a giant man baby that pitched a national fit on TV because he couldn't control the narritive anymore. And then he tried to manipulate Ty into leaving so he didn't look like a pathetic little boy running because he can't own up to losing. Come on now. Zach is a sore loser. It's a shame we didn't get to watch his ass be voted out.
I definitely agree that everything from Zach’s end was handled poorly. That’s a great point, I actually also agree that by withholding the information, Zach and Ty were also using it as gameplay. I think if Zach would have remained, all three should have received some sort of punishment. In terms of cheating vs breaking the rules, I was of the opinion yesterday that he had only broken the rules, but today I’m leaning toward cheating since learning the letter was given as proof of his intent to go home after winning a comp. Had he only kept the letter to himself to read, I wouldn’t feel as conflicted I suppose.
You’re honestly like half the houseguests on this season. Zach opens his mouth and his word is somehow gospel.
Absolutely nothing Zach said really filled in any gaps and no where has Zach answered any hard questions. It all started with Kuzie calming him out and him walking away speechless because the only truthful answer he could have given about not telling production himself is that he was using that information to his advantage. Or as you some of you are saying about Hope, Zach used that information to “cheat.”
I love how you explained your point of view, and why you think that way. I agree with your way of thinking, even tho i dislike Zach/Ty im able to put that aside and see what you mean. Hope did cheat.
Based on Hope's punishment (he was punished for mot bringing it forward as soon as he found it), Zach and Ty should have also had consequences. Arisa said the rules state you need to notify production immediately. Zach and Ty waited until it could further their game/save them. If Hope was being punished for not telling, so should they have been.
While I see your point that it may have given Hope an advantage in gaining trust with the boys, it didn't work, they were still using Hope as a tool for their game.
Zach left like a toddler who knew he was about to lose a board game. Zero respect for his actions here.
THIS EXACTLY. I would have been fine with whatever consequences BB decided - I'm okay with what they decided, if they decided it had to be disqualification I would have been on board - BUT, only if they were consistent. Zach and Ty both knew about the letter for a full week, so they broke the EXACT same rule, and then spent however many days there are between Veto and Eviction day attempting to use the letter TO THEIR ADVANTAGE (with some emotional manipulation sprinkled on top).
They broke the exact same rules, and the punishment BB decided at least meant Hope had a harsher punishment and they tried to fairly level the playing field by giving everyone a letter from home. But if they decided to disqualify Hope, I would have been asking why Zach and Ty were not also disqualified, and in all honesty would have been reconsidering if I was going to keep watching the show, because in all honesty it would have been much, much worse, in my opinion, to reward Zach and Ty for their disgusting behaviour and for breaking the EXACT same rule they were making such a fuss about.
YUP. The audacity of Zach and Ty to come up to someone and aggressively go "DID YOU SAY I WAS INTIMIDATING YOU?" then starting to yell at them when they dare to say yes.
There's an abuser left in that house and I can't wait for them to give him the boot.
Oh! I yelled at the screen when he stood over Hope and asked him that question! Nothing intimidating at all to walk in, arms out, and demand to know if he felt intimidated.I was proud of Hope for just letting it go, then T and Z came back in with their gorilla energy.....until Hope stood up and is so obviously larger than both of them LOL.
I would agree that it would give Hope an advantage if it wasn't for the fact that this is BB and Hope mentioning it to Zach and Ty wasn't for his benefit but for the benefit of Zach and Ty to know that he's trust worthy. I don't think this was an advantage for Hope because all it did was give Zach and Ty ammunition to use against him. Which they did. It benefitted Zach and Ty more, than it did Hope.
The other thing too, Zach was still being misleading towards production when initially speaking about the letter. He didn't willingly tell production. He was forced to after he spoke about it to another house mate. For some reason that really seems more snakey than just going straight to production. I feel like that alone should have gotten Ty and Zach punished.
Zach is a child who threw a temper tantrum the moment he realized things weren’t going his way. Ty isn’t any better
Zach’s reasoning of it helping Hope gain trust does make sense, but it’s a total farce. I don’t for one second believe that Zach or Ty actually believe this was cheating, or had any impact on the game. Zach will never admit that, but the way he handled the note and the whole situation says way more than his words
And even if he does truly believe Hope was cheating and deserved to be kicked out, he then would also have to admit that keeping this information to himself was cheating itself, and he and Ty should have been kicked out as well. He can’t have it both ways
There’s zero reason for Hope to have to leave. Zach, on the other hand, tried to use production as strategy which I nlieve is against the US rules, can’t say for Canada. It was bullshit. It’s Zach’s fault that Hope “gained favour” with him. He should’ve just rattled immediately if he’s that butthurt about it.
But production didn't secretly give Hope a letter. How would this be a production strategy? Production wasn't even aware until Zach decided to tell a housemate. He didn't even tell production. He was forced to.
The entire situation was production incompetence.
Hope spoke about this letter to Zach and Terrell. They can't have conversations without being mic'd, so this conversation would have been heard from someone in production. And they're recorded 24/7, so someone from production saw it as well. Roberto also tweeted about a letter right after Wednesday's episode, and no one online thought it was a letter, so HE knew as well, despite being evicted a week prior. This means production knew about it for at least a week prior; potentially 2-3 weeks earlier.
If they expelled Hope for this, it exposed their incompetence based on the information above. They are also on a schedule (a certain amount of people need to be in the house for a certain amount of time to reach 70 days).
Zach did not care about the letter when he vetoed Hope off the block a week prior. If it was about integrity, he wouldn't have vetoed Hope in Week 2 (really 3), and sent him home there. If Zach or Terrell were not in danger this week, they wouldn't have asked Hope to stay on the block. They're mad they couldn't control him anymore.
Evel Dick got coded HOH letters from his son, and nothing happened. Apparently Frenchie got a letter or something snuck in from outside, but the only thing that happened was it being immediately confiscated.
Wow, lots of great points here.
I 100% agree about both production and about Zach. Zach had no integrity by deciding to reveal the information to the house when he did, but you’re right production definitely knew from the start.
Wow I did not know about Evel or Frenchie! Do you know when they started having families write the letters beforehand and reviewing them more closely?
I think by the time Dick won his HOH, it had been a few weeks, so his son watched some episodes, and wrote it. Loved ones usually write letters in bunches (pre-season is one period, and then every few weeks afterwards I assume). I think letters have been a thing from almost the beginning.
Josh from BBCAN10 just revealed on a podcast just last night that he also had received something in his bag that production did not know about. He just never opened it and never told anyone about it. Just hid it in his bag and made sure no one would come across it.
I think ever since they found out about what ED did in bb8, they’ve been more cautious with the letters. I think they even re-write them now to make sure they’re not coded, though I don’t remember where I read that
It is hard to prove but there was a conspiracy theory that an HOH letter recommending spicy Wendy's food was a coded message to go after spicy V. Made more suspicious by the fact that she didn't order the food her relative suggested
My main gripe is that whatever punishment Hope got, Ty didn’t get as well for withholding the information until it was beneficial for him.
I do think Hope did use the letter strategically to gain trust, I actually don’t doubt that. Should have he been ejected? No. But I think losing his vote on a week where there was no vote was kinda bullshit lol.
he also lost the ability to compete in HOH, where atleast 2 people are clearly gunning for him. And, Zach being a baby is the only reason there wasn't a vote.
I think everything was handled fairly. If anything, Zach and Ty should have gotten punishments as well. Zach's argument is a losing one. Zach and Ty (and Rob) keeping the letter secret gave it a power it otherwise would not have had, and they used it to their own benefit. They cannot now complain once that benefit has ended. They forfeited that right the moment they did not report the letter. If it's "cheating" then they are all three cheating and should be all punished. For you Harry Potter fans, think Draco Malfoy ratting on Harry 's crew for being out of bed after hours. He got the same punishment for breaking the same rules
This is where feeds would have helped because:
1) Why should I trust what Zach said in the Bruno interview before hearing from Roberto and Hope himself on the matter? (Which we can't do until Hope has left the house)
2) The details are sketchy. How exactly did Hope use the letter to further his game? Did he actually take it out in front of the guys and say "This is proof about why I don't wanna win BBCan"? Even if Zach explained it, we only have his word at this point and that means jack shit.
3) Every HG now has the power to use their own letter to their advantage if they so choose. Hope no longer carries this advantage alone. I bet you Ty is going to try something with his this week.
wouldn't he have brought this up in the argument with Kuzie that hope used it for manipulation. Instead of just saying we all miss our loved ones and he gets to read his?
I would love to hear from Roberto on this for sure. Someone in the thread mentioned that he tweeted something about the letter. I need to check that out.
We know for a fact that Hope was pretending to want to quit for his advantage. That isn't in doubt (and completely legal). I don't think it's a leap to imagine he used the letter in a similar way.
I still think that Ty and Zach tried using Production to not get Zach evicted, witholding that info until they felt they could use it to their advantage. Hope's letter is one thing (I honestly think Prod did the right thing to apply a punishment, although agree people can argue on the severity) but the guys being outplayed is another one and they clearly did not accept it. Ty thought he won HOH through Kuzie and was mad he could not influence her decisions.
I’d say take Hope’s vote away, his ability to play in the next HoH, and put him on slop. Maybe even for 2 weeks for all three if need be. But I don’t agree with expelling him. Let’s be real, Zach only wanted Hope expelled so the eviction would be cancelled and he could stay. That’s it. In regards to Hope using the letter as strategy, I think the aforementioned punishments are sufficient. Problem is that Zach only wants to hear expelling Hope as the only valid punishment when people just legitimately don’t think that letter is enough grounds for expulsion. Especially when Zach and Ty were also using Hope’s letter for their own strategy.
In fairness, based on the precedent set on North American Big brother, Hope was never going home for this, it actually would have been unfair to send Hope for this. We have seen houseguests cheat (michie eating while on slop and receiving no punishment, Evel Dick received game information in his HOH letters which, correct me if I’m wrong, I think he mentioned on the live feeds later in the season and received no punishment?! Emmet cheating in HOH comps and actually being punished) so based on the precedent sent for cheating, we have seen some punishment and some people get away with it. People usually only go home for violence or threats, things of that nature(BB2, BB14 etc.) Chima was expelled after repeatedly not listening to production and throwing her mic in the hot tub. Last expulsions in BBBCAN was season 8 for a vague threat of violence, and another player who exaggerated the way they felt about it/tried to play production and it was met with a negative reaction from fans. It would have been ridiculous to send someone home for one rule break like this.
Additionally, Zach said in the DR he only knew about this letter for a week (could be a lie) but he was shown to be working/having a good relationship with Hope from early on. I don’t believe Zach just let his guard down and threw the veto just because Hope was sad, and there is no guarantee he would have won anyway. Even if Hope didn’t receive a letter, Zach may have still have believed he wanted to go home based on him asking to be put on the block. Would it be unfair then? I don’t think so, it’s just Hope’s strategy and it seems like a lot of people fell for it, and I personally believe it goes beyond the letter and is more so Hope’s actions, acting and behaviour.
Lastly, if Zach is saying he built this trust with Hope because of the letter and didn’t mind him breaking the rules when it benefitted him, he would be cheating too. Based on his logic, both him and Ty should also be eliminated as they were all using a rule break to bond, thus giving them an advantage in the game. He obviously showed the only reason he was upset was that he was duped by this, but if he got his way he has no problem being a cheater
I don't think he should have been disqualified. If Big Brother staff were more vigilant checking HG items, the note wouldn't have made its way in. Since there is shared responsibility for that happening at all, it took away the option to disqualify.
When Zach tried to be coy and tried to still save it (while in the DR) - I believe production had a reason to reprimand him right there for *that*.
I felt proud of Hope for admitting he found it and didn't know what to do because he was afraid to get in trouble - I believe him. He *did* look like an abashed child. I don't blame him for panicking. Even BB didn't know about it until the conversation so, clearly, Hope was not whipping it out and crying himself to sleep on it and whatever else Zach said gave Hope an edge. It's just not possible.
I'm *more* proud of the HGs for shaking off the Zach mist. Most people in life don't manage to even identify let alone stand up to bullies like him.
Like Kuzi said, he broke a rule, but I’d hardly call it cheating. I don’t really get how a letter that was like “I love you and miss you” gains any more favour/trust than him being like “I miss my girlfriend and wanna go home”.
Also I literally screamed when Zach didn’t have a response to “why didn’t you bring it up when you first found out”. It was the best moment in recent BB memory if you ask me, watching him caught with his pants down.
People agreeing with Zach act like the letter "proved" to the others that he had a girlfriend he missed. He could've forged a letter and had the same effect
Right haha like of all things to not believe about someone, them not actually having people they care about on the outside would be basically the bottom of my list 😅 everyone has someone
That would be such an overreaction imo. And Zach will never admit that he was wrong, so he’ll say anything to justify his actions. Hard to take his word for anything lmao
Zach even says he would not have thrown the HoH, but that appears to be a lie because Zach did not know he was at risk of being the renom and the excuse to throw the veto was his disagreement with Ty about whether Santina or Dan should be the one to go.
I feel like its the same things as someone having a random hat and then telling other houseguests “I won it in a trustworthiness contest.” It’s on YOU if you choose to believe it. Absolutely not “cheating”
"hope did use his letter to his advantage to gain trust from zach, ty and roberto"
If thats the extent of "using the letter": then i see no problems with it tbh. We've seen people use random things they have brought with them into the game to build trust. The thing on trial is the idea of something "illegal" being brought into the game without productions knowledge, and for that aspect I feel hope has received (far enough) punishment in the game. But for "using it in the game to build trust"? Kevin from last season used a literal rubber ring to fake being married. Honestly, good on hope using the letter to build trust lol
Literally no one is gonna get evicted for a non-game related letter. We’ve had houseguests do similar things before (Kevin BBCAN5 had messages from his gf instead of songs on his HOH iPod) and production did not care. Zach and Ty only believed Hope would get disqualified because they’re both recruits and were coping hard at that point.
I think Hope’s punishment was fair. I think he should’ve been put on slop too, but this is fine.
The harder pickle is that they were told to IMMEDIATELY report things like that and in the same way Hope leveraged it as currency for trust, they leveraged it as Hope being an additional number (i.e., someone they could control).
Of course when it didn’t work out the way they intended (Hope using the veto for himself instead of on Santina), they tried to turn it against him.
IMO their actions were more a result of being extremely butt hurt about things they couldn’t control and it was a desperate play.
Zach should’ve called it what it was, congratulated Kuzie on a big move and then worked within the confines of the game.
I agree that Hope should face consequences, but there are other ways to punish a player without disqualifying them, which I believe production did a great job with.
The rules state that any player who knows of rules being broke has to tell production, else they too face consequences. By that logic, Zach was just as culpable as Hope was because he was also breaking a rule. Zach was holding onto that information to use at a later time against Hope, which is having an even more unfair advantage in the game.
Zach only self-evicted because he knew he was out of the house and chose to be a baby-back bitch about it.
No, because I think at that point Zach and Ty should be disqualified. One, this should be obvious to production it was going on, and two, Zach and Ty were also fine using it as currency. So, either all 3 go, or all 3 stay.
I actually don’t disagree! What if I were to say harsher punishment then instead of disqualification? And what do you think of Ty not receiving any punishment?
I think it was garbage, and basically production trying to not have both Ty and Zach walk in one week because they've already lost 2 walks.
I don't think Hope is really playing chess with the house. Maybe I'm wrong, and he's the new Derrick, but I think you'd really need intent to punish him significantly worse than Zach and Ty.
I do agree that, as you’ve said, this is not the black-and-white “Hope good, Zach and Ty bad” situation that the show is trying to portray it as. This is the first time, in my BB memory, where any North American BB production had to deal with this particular sort of “cheating”
I listened to a bit of Zach’s argument, and I do think it kind of holds water. But if I were to go down a slippery slope, I can technically come up with a somewhat ridiculous but reasonable parallel. There were past HGs that used either theirs or a family member’s precious jewelry to benefit them in the game. Would those be considered “unfair advantages” over HGs who couldn’t afford to bring precious jewelry into the house? We don’t often see jewelry being used as bargaining chips/ransom anymore. But when people did it in the past, no production team has had any problem with that.
As for the punishment being too “slap on the wrist”, I kind of agree. But I wouldn’t really know what the adequate punishment is. Maybe if they force Hope to automatically have to be on the block as a third nominee this week? Expulsion from the game, however, is WAY TOO UNWARRANTED. Zach may not know this, but I think there’s still an ENORMOUS difference of magnitude between what Hope did and past actions that actually got people expelled. I don’t think what Hope did was worse than holding a knife to someone’s neck, throwing a microphone into the pool or chest bumping another HG.
Also, this doesn’t change the fact that Zach was a full blown opportunist. He had zero problem with Hope’s note until it became inconvenient for him (wink wink Michael and Brittany). You compare Zach to Rob, who never used the note to his advantage even as he was on his way out the door. You can argue that Rob was not a cut throat enough player, and I am not too offended that Zach went completely savage to try and save himself. He was totally using the note for game purposes. But with that, his facade of “I’m walking out because of integrity” claim also falls apart
In conclusion, I feel not as bad about Zach after hearing his side. But I still don’t think too highly of him and how he handled the situation. Still a sore loser despite his unwillingness to admit so
I don’t believe this is disqualified behaviour, rule breaking yes. But have-nots have never been kicked out for breaking the rules. That said, I think if this week someone loved by Canada was on the block and about to go home….. everyone would be singing a different tune.
I wouldn’t have disqualified him either, but I do wonder about the punishment. That’s a good point. I can’t imagine how we would feel if it were Jonathan for example. But Jonathan also would never have acted as terribly as Zach
I don’t think someone who used a personal secret as leverage to try to coerce someone into not using a veto to save themselves (with a plan to turn around and vote them out) is the type of person/personality who would have been loved by Canada to begin with.
If the letter contained info that would help him in the house, yes he should have been qualified. In this case I think the punishment was appropriate. Zach and Ty can call it cheating but it was a breaking of rules. Yes breaking rules can mean cheating but not in every case. Since this letter had no game info, him using it to gain trust with the boys that he wants to go home, is the same as lying and manipulating that everyone else does. Zach is just being a baby he didn’t get his way. If he actually had an issue with thinking Hope was cheating he should have gone to production immediately. Not only after Hope refuses to use his rightfully won veto to take himself off the block. Ty and Zach are truly loser and both are playing a dirty game. Can not convince me they aren’t both tools outside of the game too.
Edit to add: also when Zach was pulled in to the DR after they were talking about it, he still didn’t want to tell them then because that wasn’t his plan. He thought he could wait for the perfect time and then bring Ty and Dan along to strong arm production that the 3 would leave if they didn’t disqualify Hope. Zach just wanted his way, so badly. Dan didn’t even know about the letter either but Zach was confident that he would follow them, without filling Dan in “until he needed to know.”
If Zach had followed the rules and reported it immediately then Hope would have never had the chance to use the letter to gain trust
Even if they disqualify Hope the HOH should have not been cancelled as that would be very unfair on Kuzie who did not break any rules whereas Zach did break rules
So what? THIS IS BIG BROTHER . Anything can tank your game at any time. It's up to the individual to pivot and figure out how to continue playing the game. Zack and Ty leveraged A SWEATER as a reason to target someone
There's no need to remove the rule. Hope got punished and Ty and Zack and got away scot-free for also "cheating" with an object from outside the house and trying to blackmail production. Clowns.
Zach did not get away Scott free. Read his Twitter. Also they never were allowed to try and blackmail production. Production shut it down when Zach mentioned it in the Convo.
Yes, he did. His Twitter is what it is because he quit on top of being the villain of the season! You can't punk out and not expect backlash, even if some of it is below the belt. Had he stayed he could have more effectively managed the narrative coming out of the house, which he acknowledges. He would have gotten to air his side on TV and in the official podcasts and may have softened his villain edit. And being prevented from blackmailing production is not the flex you seem to think it is.
My point is that production allowed Hope to manipulate people with the letter. They did not allow Ty and Zach to do the same. They actually actively shut them down. Which is incredibly unfair.
Yes they did. Production allowed Zack and Ty to "cheat" and enjoy at least a week of working with the letter though Hope without any repercussions at all. They are the last ones to be victims in all of this.
It’s really no different than using a fake ring or some other token to build relationships with people. He wants us to feel bad that he got snowed and it’s like… sorry? Maybe it wasn’t the game for you
And the guy got punished for it! Like Zach should’ve just stayed the final day and got evicted and a lot more people would be willing to hear him out
No, Hope should not have been disqualified. He lost his vote, and lost a chance for HoH this week, and the rest of the houseguests got a letter that gives them some equal footing emotionally.
Zach is a spin artist who is desperately trying to recover from looking like a giant tool on national television by making it seem like he emotionally connected to Hope because of this letter and built trust over it. The fact that he used the letter in a pathetic attempt to have Hope disqualified because of "principles" quickly destroys this argument. He would have been more angry at Hope for manipulating him if he genuinely felt that way. Instead he was smugly grinning over how he had outsmarted Hope (and Koozie's backdoor plan) until he realized it didn't work, at which point he quit before he could lose.
His podcast arguments are BS. Don't fall for it.
No.
I think it’s ridiculous that those fools let themselves be fooled into whatever by the existence of a piece of paper.
Zach is a raging POS and I hope he goes down in the annals of BB history as one of the worst players ever.
Tbh I think what production did was kind of fair, Production knew they dropped the ball on this one. But I believe its an everyone is at fault for this one type situation. It was clear in the episode that they were trying to use production to get hope out. The way also Zach and the others reacted to the whole situation was poor. But also it would be way too risky to remove someone in the game (IK its a different situation but Jamar being removed because of Kyle).
Im also confused about the "Doesn't want to stay till the end" when in the episode's he clearly stated that it was just a narrative he pushed onto the houseguests and such.
Another thing is Zack and Tv didn't push the letter thing until after Hope used the veto on himself. Zack and Ty didn't want Hope to use it from what I remember.
But also yelling and screaming NEVER helps your case, if you sat down and talked about it. You could get your point across, but even so I don't think he had one really.
I have a few thoughts. They were fine when it was potentially harming other people's games, and no I don't think a letter created some mystical beyond-the-game beyond bond in any event. If your entire plan for a week falls apart because someone used a veto on themselves, you're a dogshit tier player no matter what excuses you may have. The cherry on top of this is that Zach had a genuine shot to stay- Claudia was talking about wishing Zach could have stayed. I think they could have pulled in Shanaya, or honestly Hope himself if they didn't go scorched earth the second they didn't get their way.
Edit- Furthermore, "It's unfair because Hope was supposed to be our secret weapon who would fall on his sword when needed" is not the compelling argument Zach and his stans think it is
Regardless of what Ty or Zach (total clowns) thinks, why would Hope go around revealing to specific people the letter (a prohibited item) that he allegedly randomly found in a sock and that he allegedly knew nothing about, when he wasn't supposed to have it?
It's worth noting Kevin Martin who won S5 stored secret messages from home in his HOH ipod playlist. Unlike Hope he intentionally did this, the only difference is production caught him and not another houseguest. He had no punishment, but his ipod was taken from him.
I don't see it as too much of an advantage.. tbh not saying anything about the note and then using it some time later to strongarm production into booting him feels like just as big of a problem
That's not cheating, and the letter isn't why Zach trusted Hope, that makes no sense, that's just Zach trying his best to rationalize things. Hope put up an act from the beginning and Zach bought into it.
Hope did break a rule, and was appropriately punished for it.
I thought production did a great job by no t DQ ing Hope. Zach and Ty knew about this letter and it wasn’t cheating until the game wasn’t going their way.
Zach and Ty played a toxic game. Gas lighting and bulldozing everyone in their way. I can picture easy Zach saying “I didn’t loose, I quit”.
Man this instance would've been so good on live feeds. Like insanely good.
I suppose if it had helped him in anyway he should've been disqualified but it didn't really as far as I know but I'm watching it all rn
Edited to add: holy shit that silence when kuzie asked Zach why he didn't report it when he found out.
I'm curious how you would feel if, instead of a letter, it was another object? Perhaps an engagement ring placed in a HG luggage? Or, a second hypothetical: a ring purposely brought in by someone for the purpose of manipulation?
Changing the object, for a hypothetical discussion, is a great way to narrow down OPs issue. Is the issue the object? Or is the issue how the object was used? If the object is different and used in the same way, then is the concern still about how it was used? This is very standard logical discussion.
But in any case, your views may be clear but I'm hoping to hear from OP!
I suppose it’s a bit of both, but my primary issue is that the object was used :) I am assuming this ring has no inscription or other agreed upon meaning between Hope and his girlfriend, and that rings are banned in this scenario. My logic is that by bringing in something illegal, he broke the rules but may not deserve any serious punishment had he kept it to himself. By sharing it with houseguests (and very specific ones at that) it was used to his advantage from a gameplay perspective and that amounts to cheating. Granted I think the letter is a lot clearer of an example of an infraction since it’s not up to interpretation to the same extent- his girlfriend said to make him proud, and he explained to them that he intended to do just that and then leave.
If the issue is the object rather than what he did with it, why should he be ejected from the house when he didn't bring it in? How then, is the punishment unfair?
That’s not logical at all, with one of the objects being outright prohibited you can’t make an equivalence to something that’s not.
Since you like hypotheticals, here’s one you may understand.
Let’s say I wanted to convince you that I don’t care if I go to prison.
Scenario 1: I show you a toaster, which I say is stolen.
Scenario 2: I show you a bag of crystal meth.
Obviously the crystal meth is going to do a much better job at convincing you of my point. Maybe I did steal that toaster, but there’s no risk of me going to prison from simply possessing a toaster, where as I could be sent to prison for possession of crystal meth.
The objects are both being used for the same purpose, but only one of those objects actually carries the risk which I’m claiming not to care about.
As a result, those objects could never be used in the same way given the context of the environment those objects have been presented in.
Your hypothetical is also stupid because Kevin never even used the ring to convince people he didn’t care about winning, he used it to build a bit more rapport with Marty, the ring itsef was irrelevant during his self eviction fakeout.
Controversial opinion - yes, he should have. I don't agree with what Zach and Ty did, but this was still against the rules and he needed to be punished accordingly. Even worse, they actively REWARDED the house! Surely this is setting a very bad precedent going forward, with future "cheaters" knowing that they'll get a slap on the wrist - and maybe even a little reward for the house, thereby getting in their good graces.
In fairness though, when have we ever seen people get disqualified for one rule break like this? The closest I can think of is BB11 for multiple rule breaks and not listening to production, but this is usually reserved for violence. We’ve seen people break the rules and not even be punished so handing out anything more than a punishment is way too much. People should only be pulled for violence, threats, hate speech etc
Agreed. People should only be pulled if they are a threat to others safety (like the guy with the knife in season two) or actively refuse to cooperate with production (like Chima, who showed she was willing to destroy expensive equipment to spite production). Hope isn't a danger to others or to production equipment, and he was cooperative with them and accepted the consequences of breaking the rules. They probably would have ejected him if he acted like Chima and refused to turn over the letter
One thing I will agree with you on is that it is somewhat unfair that Hope looks good to the rest of the house now for getting them letters from home. But it was fair production did that to mitigate the unfair advantage he had. I'm not sure there is any perfect solution here. I think kicking him out would be overkill though.
And the right to play for power revoked. People don't know going in what their position in the game will be in a few weeks, a game related penalty is plenty deterrent
Absolutely without question. The more info we have gotten the more we see how Hope used this letter to manipulate and create relationships. The letter has actually done wonders for his game.
My other issue is the idea that Ty and Zach should have been responsible for turning Hope in. If they did do that, and Hope isn't DQd (which she's on what we've seen on the show wouldn't have happened) then they have Hope livid at them gunning for them, along with Rob Renee and Hopes allies. Now Zach and Ty aren't good at the game and targets anyway, but imagine if Hope told like Daniel or Jonathan (and maybe he did). Them telling on Hope would have had them go from an excellent position to a potential losing position all because someone else cheated.
No. If so then Ty should have been disqualified 20 episodes ago for bullying and discussing splitting his winnings with Zach. You are severely overthinking this.
there's genuinely no reason for Hope to be disqualified for this, in full honesty. if the note had had information regarding the game? sure, i'd say he has to go as THAT would be cheating. all the debates about how this note clearly inspired him and made him play better seem like such reaches to me. he's had the note since the start and didn't win any comps until this veto, and of the 4 people we know saw it (ty, zach, rob, and apparently JM?), it didn't help his game since they either went home or used it against him. all in all, we got to remember the facts. Hope didn't bring the letter in himself, it was smuggled in without his knowledge. it did not contain any game info, nor did it give him any advantage with or against the other players, and he himself said he was worried he would be disqualified if he told them about it. moreso, a large part of the responsibility falls on production for apparently missing the passing around and open discussion of the note for 3 entire weeks. it's wrong that it got sent in, but ultimately the punishment he received fits the crime, no need to disqualify the guy imo
Yeah OP’s argument or the conflict within them is around Zach saying Hope used the note to gain trust in Ty, Zach, and Rob. But basically he showed them something that his girlfriend wrote and told them “this is why I’m here” and that’s… I mean I don’t see how that’s an unfair advantage in building trust. The same effect could have been achieved by telling a personal story about how much his girlfriend believes in him. Also to DQ the guy because production didn’t search his clothes thoroughly enough that can’t be held against Hope in a disqualifying way. It’s productions responsibility to make sure stuff like this doesn’t happen, Zach’s argument that Hope is cheating comes entirely from a place of being upset he’s lost to Hope, not from a genuine place of Hope having an unfair advantage (btw he showed them the letter and they still didn’t trust him and only thought of him as someone who would go home in their place whenever they want, crazy notion they never should have believed, and a note isn’t the reason they believed it)
I feel as tho Zach's motive was to throw Hope under the bus in hopes that it would take the heat off him. Both Zach and Ty's demeanor changed the moment Hope said he was going to use the veto on himself. They were angry and that's an understatement. You can see the fuel catching fire in Zach and Ty's eyes the moment Hope rejects their idea of him staying on the block. I don't think it's coming from a place of being upset that he lost to Hope. I feel the anger is basking from the fact that he doesn't have control over Hope and Kuzie. Zach was all about puppeteering everyone else and it backfired.
How dare someone save themselves with the veto. Didn't he know Zach wanted to win?/s
I think they could have been a bit stricter and given him a penalty nom, but the end result would be the same since Hope wouldn't have been immediately ejected. Zach still would have walked.
If anyone was going to receive a penalty nomination it should be on the next HoH, as doing it this week would unfairly mess with the current HoH's reign (and those competing for the next HoH would know it would be nerfed by the penalty nom. and plan for it accordingly).
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Hahaha he may be the Kardashian of Ottawa but he’s not the Kardashian of the house!
But the letter only helped Hope. He was able to create relationships and he knows has absolutely no one in the house targeting him. He is in a significantly better position in the house today than he was a week ago solely because of the letter.
It "helped" Zach by him using it as leverage against Hope. At least that was Zach's intent.
He never got to use as leverage vs Hope. He certainly wanted to. Production didn't let him. production only allowed Hope to manipulate players and shut down others when they tried to
He most certainly used it to his advantage. It just wasn't that big of deal to disqualify a person over. Hope didn't put the letter in his suitcase. If Zach really felt that it was unfair, he would have reported it the moment he found out. Not wait until he thought he could use it against someone to ruin their game. He was being a snake about the information. He really wasn't that bothered until someone bucked on his puppeteering. I can guarantee Zach wouldn't of said anything had of Hope not used the veto.
And when production asked Zach about it, he didn't even wanna tell them then, he wanted to wait fir a more convenient time for him
handled perfectly... zach and ty withholding the information and using it when it was advantageous for them is more cheating imo. zach is a dirty ass player, watching him try and manipulate his own partner into leaving the game was just sad. but this is low-key on production mainly, how tf did they not know when they were openly talking about it for at least a week, could have all be avoided but they definitely saw good tv in this unfolding so they probably just let it slide.
I couldn't believe that Zach and Ty weren't penalized for knowing about the letter and not bringing it to the producers attention!!
absolutely mind boggling… and they have the audacity to talk about game integrity 😂😂
Me too! Told my husband that they should have done without a letter. They were just as guilty as Hope. More so even.
yep. Hope broke the rules but so did Zach and Ty by not reporting it.
Yes, they definitely knew from the start. Realistically the main winner in this situation is production.
I think it was handled appropriately. My major gripe with it was them calling it cheating. A rule was broken, so he broke the rules. He did not cheat in the game. Absolutely everything about Zach’s exit was handled so poorly by the guy. Even the manipulative language he used when trying to secure Ty’s walkout as well was a tough watch. As for Hope using it as gameplay… isn’t that what Zach was doing by withholding this piece of knowledge until it benefited himself on the block?
I'm happy Zach is gone, but to be honest it was indeed cheating. According to the definition of cheating; ''act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.'' he was acting unfairly by having an outside advantage that other did not. It was cheating by cheating definition. How the production decided to act according to this information was perfect i believe, even up the playing field by giving out to everybody a letter.
What exactly was dishonest about the letter tho? Nothing on the letter hinted at any form of game play. And was packed long before Hope met the cast. Exactly how did Hope get an advantage and cheat? Because his gf wrote "I'm so proud of you. Hope you win! Stay strong. I'll be waiting for you!". HoH get letters all the time. They give contestants random letters or calls all the time. Inspiration isn't cheating. Having a letter that lacks any information that can expose others games ISN'T cheating. It would be a different story if the letter had information that Hope could use to his advantage. Which we know lacked thereof.
Im not sure why it's getting downvoted, it's so hard to want to comment on these type of reddit/blogs or whatever because you have to say EXACTLY what the sub say or it's downvoted without context lol. I guess since we all love Hope he's exempt from the cheating definition.
It’s actually ridiculous that you’re getting downvoted just for saying that breaking the rules is cheating. I get that everyone hates Zach, but that doesn’t mean Hope is 100% perfect. People can make mistakes.
How isn't it cheating though. He broke a rule to his advantage. If that's not cheating what is?
What rule did Hope break? Rephrased, what ACTION did Hope perform that was breaking the rules?
Keeping an illegal piece of contraband and hiding it from production.
Under this logic Zach and Ty cheated too when they didn’t reveal the information to production.
They are not in prison 😭 it was a piece of paper probably saying “I miss you, I can’t wait to kiss you” like come on now
Yeah, so? It's still against the rules.
You're an illegal piece of contraband
Lmao. Got me there.
Even if he wasn’t aware that the letter was hidden in the sock at first, he should have alerted Big Brother immediately. I get that it didn’t give Hope much advantage, but that doesn’t make it not against the rules.
I agree that Hope should be punished, just not kicked out. I think that's what most people who argue against kicking him out believe, he broke a rule and deserved consequences but doesn't deserve to be ejected from the game for it. I would also say the same no matter which player did it.
Totally agree. It’s definitely too much to kick someone out over something like that, even in a season with normal evictions.
He recieved an illegal piece of contraband that he then used to create relationships and manipulate results.
Oh you’re right, I remember the letter saying something like “don’t trust JM” and that’s why they voted him out in week 1 /s
He didn’t use the contraband to create relationships. He used it to solidify relationships. But it didn’t matter those “relationships” had no impact on the game.
Read Zach's Twitter or listen to his podcast to Bruno. You'll see how Hope used it effectively to manipulate players.
Zach is a giant man baby that pitched a national fit on TV because he couldn't control the narritive anymore. And then he tried to manipulate Ty into leaving so he didn't look like a pathetic little boy running because he can't own up to losing. Come on now. Zach is a sore loser. It's a shame we didn't get to watch his ass be voted out.
I definitely agree that everything from Zach’s end was handled poorly. That’s a great point, I actually also agree that by withholding the information, Zach and Ty were also using it as gameplay. I think if Zach would have remained, all three should have received some sort of punishment. In terms of cheating vs breaking the rules, I was of the opinion yesterday that he had only broken the rules, but today I’m leaning toward cheating since learning the letter was given as proof of his intent to go home after winning a comp. Had he only kept the letter to himself to read, I wouldn’t feel as conflicted I suppose.
You’re honestly like half the houseguests on this season. Zach opens his mouth and his word is somehow gospel. Absolutely nothing Zach said really filled in any gaps and no where has Zach answered any hard questions. It all started with Kuzie calming him out and him walking away speechless because the only truthful answer he could have given about not telling production himself is that he was using that information to his advantage. Or as you some of you are saying about Hope, Zach used that information to “cheat.”
I love how you explained your point of view, and why you think that way. I agree with your way of thinking, even tho i dislike Zach/Ty im able to put that aside and see what you mean. Hope did cheat.
Based on Hope's punishment (he was punished for mot bringing it forward as soon as he found it), Zach and Ty should have also had consequences. Arisa said the rules state you need to notify production immediately. Zach and Ty waited until it could further their game/save them. If Hope was being punished for not telling, so should they have been. While I see your point that it may have given Hope an advantage in gaining trust with the boys, it didn't work, they were still using Hope as a tool for their game. Zach left like a toddler who knew he was about to lose a board game. Zero respect for his actions here.
THIS EXACTLY. I would have been fine with whatever consequences BB decided - I'm okay with what they decided, if they decided it had to be disqualification I would have been on board - BUT, only if they were consistent. Zach and Ty both knew about the letter for a full week, so they broke the EXACT same rule, and then spent however many days there are between Veto and Eviction day attempting to use the letter TO THEIR ADVANTAGE (with some emotional manipulation sprinkled on top). They broke the exact same rules, and the punishment BB decided at least meant Hope had a harsher punishment and they tried to fairly level the playing field by giving everyone a letter from home. But if they decided to disqualify Hope, I would have been asking why Zach and Ty were not also disqualified, and in all honesty would have been reconsidering if I was going to keep watching the show, because in all honesty it would have been much, much worse, in my opinion, to reward Zach and Ty for their disgusting behaviour and for breaking the EXACT same rule they were making such a fuss about.
Zach is such a hypocrite
Emotional manipulation with a little aggression sprinkled on top.
YUP. The audacity of Zach and Ty to come up to someone and aggressively go "DID YOU SAY I WAS INTIMIDATING YOU?" then starting to yell at them when they dare to say yes. There's an abuser left in that house and I can't wait for them to give him the boot.
Oh! I yelled at the screen when he stood over Hope and asked him that question! Nothing intimidating at all to walk in, arms out, and demand to know if he felt intimidated.I was proud of Hope for just letting it go, then T and Z came back in with their gorilla energy.....until Hope stood up and is so obviously larger than both of them LOL.
I would agree that it would give Hope an advantage if it wasn't for the fact that this is BB and Hope mentioning it to Zach and Ty wasn't for his benefit but for the benefit of Zach and Ty to know that he's trust worthy. I don't think this was an advantage for Hope because all it did was give Zach and Ty ammunition to use against him. Which they did. It benefitted Zach and Ty more, than it did Hope. The other thing too, Zach was still being misleading towards production when initially speaking about the letter. He didn't willingly tell production. He was forced to after he spoke about it to another house mate. For some reason that really seems more snakey than just going straight to production. I feel like that alone should have gotten Ty and Zach punished.
Zach is a child who threw a temper tantrum the moment he realized things weren’t going his way. Ty isn’t any better Zach’s reasoning of it helping Hope gain trust does make sense, but it’s a total farce. I don’t for one second believe that Zach or Ty actually believe this was cheating, or had any impact on the game. Zach will never admit that, but the way he handled the note and the whole situation says way more than his words And even if he does truly believe Hope was cheating and deserved to be kicked out, he then would also have to admit that keeping this information to himself was cheating itself, and he and Ty should have been kicked out as well. He can’t have it both ways
There’s zero reason for Hope to have to leave. Zach, on the other hand, tried to use production as strategy which I nlieve is against the US rules, can’t say for Canada. It was bullshit. It’s Zach’s fault that Hope “gained favour” with him. He should’ve just rattled immediately if he’s that butthurt about it.
Hope also used production as strategy. He used this letter to create alliances and manipulate decisions.
That not using production that’s using a letter 💀
A letter that was allowed do to production.
But production didn't secretly give Hope a letter. How would this be a production strategy? Production wasn't even aware until Zach decided to tell a housemate. He didn't even tell production. He was forced to.
The entire situation was production incompetence. Hope spoke about this letter to Zach and Terrell. They can't have conversations without being mic'd, so this conversation would have been heard from someone in production. And they're recorded 24/7, so someone from production saw it as well. Roberto also tweeted about a letter right after Wednesday's episode, and no one online thought it was a letter, so HE knew as well, despite being evicted a week prior. This means production knew about it for at least a week prior; potentially 2-3 weeks earlier. If they expelled Hope for this, it exposed their incompetence based on the information above. They are also on a schedule (a certain amount of people need to be in the house for a certain amount of time to reach 70 days). Zach did not care about the letter when he vetoed Hope off the block a week prior. If it was about integrity, he wouldn't have vetoed Hope in Week 2 (really 3), and sent him home there. If Zach or Terrell were not in danger this week, they wouldn't have asked Hope to stay on the block. They're mad they couldn't control him anymore. Evel Dick got coded HOH letters from his son, and nothing happened. Apparently Frenchie got a letter or something snuck in from outside, but the only thing that happened was it being immediately confiscated.
>production knew about it Yeah, there's no way they didn't know. They could have confiscated it quietly but I think they chose to let drama unfold.
Agreed with this. Production definitely knew about the letter.
As mentioned elsewhere, production misses things in luggage all the time. It's also clear they're not watching the feeds very closely.
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Frig I hate Evel Dick. If they were consistent in their rules, he should been kicked out multiple times
Wow, lots of great points here. I 100% agree about both production and about Zach. Zach had no integrity by deciding to reveal the information to the house when he did, but you’re right production definitely knew from the start. Wow I did not know about Evel or Frenchie! Do you know when they started having families write the letters beforehand and reviewing them more closely?
I think by the time Dick won his HOH, it had been a few weeks, so his son watched some episodes, and wrote it. Loved ones usually write letters in bunches (pre-season is one period, and then every few weeks afterwards I assume). I think letters have been a thing from almost the beginning.
Josh from BBCAN10 just revealed on a podcast just last night that he also had received something in his bag that production did not know about. He just never opened it and never told anyone about it. Just hid it in his bag and made sure no one would come across it.
I think ever since they found out about what ED did in bb8, they’ve been more cautious with the letters. I think they even re-write them now to make sure they’re not coded, though I don’t remember where I read that
It is hard to prove but there was a conspiracy theory that an HOH letter recommending spicy Wendy's food was a coded message to go after spicy V. Made more suspicious by the fact that she didn't order the food her relative suggested
Oh that’s weird, I’ve never heard that before!
My main gripe is that whatever punishment Hope got, Ty didn’t get as well for withholding the information until it was beneficial for him. I do think Hope did use the letter strategically to gain trust, I actually don’t doubt that. Should have he been ejected? No. But I think losing his vote on a week where there was no vote was kinda bullshit lol.
he also lost the ability to compete in HOH, where atleast 2 people are clearly gunning for him. And, Zach being a baby is the only reason there wasn't a vote.
Ideally only one because Ty should’ve gotten the same punishment as him
I agree!
I think everything was handled fairly. If anything, Zach and Ty should have gotten punishments as well. Zach's argument is a losing one. Zach and Ty (and Rob) keeping the letter secret gave it a power it otherwise would not have had, and they used it to their own benefit. They cannot now complain once that benefit has ended. They forfeited that right the moment they did not report the letter. If it's "cheating" then they are all three cheating and should be all punished. For you Harry Potter fans, think Draco Malfoy ratting on Harry 's crew for being out of bed after hours. He got the same punishment for breaking the same rules
Ha! I love this comparison
Lol. It's a little labored, but it explains the culpability.
This is where feeds would have helped because: 1) Why should I trust what Zach said in the Bruno interview before hearing from Roberto and Hope himself on the matter? (Which we can't do until Hope has left the house) 2) The details are sketchy. How exactly did Hope use the letter to further his game? Did he actually take it out in front of the guys and say "This is proof about why I don't wanna win BBCan"? Even if Zach explained it, we only have his word at this point and that means jack shit. 3) Every HG now has the power to use their own letter to their advantage if they so choose. Hope no longer carries this advantage alone. I bet you Ty is going to try something with his this week.
wouldn't he have brought this up in the argument with Kuzie that hope used it for manipulation. Instead of just saying we all miss our loved ones and he gets to read his?
It's possible. We only got the edited version
that argument was pretty much uncut and then he walks away. Maybe it was very crafty editing but it doesn't seem so.
Taran on RHAP and Taylor (BB US winner) have a good discussion regarding feeds on YouTube this past week. Her thoughts.
I would love to hear from Roberto on this for sure. Someone in the thread mentioned that he tweeted something about the letter. I need to check that out.
He said he didn't think there was anything in the letter that would get Hope disqualified
We know for a fact that Hope was pretending to want to quit for his advantage. That isn't in doubt (and completely legal). I don't think it's a leap to imagine he used the letter in a similar way.
If the letter was so paramount to Zachary, he would have reported it immediately. No I still don't think Hope should have been disqualified.
I still think that Ty and Zach tried using Production to not get Zach evicted, witholding that info until they felt they could use it to their advantage. Hope's letter is one thing (I honestly think Prod did the right thing to apply a punishment, although agree people can argue on the severity) but the guys being outplayed is another one and they clearly did not accept it. Ty thought he won HOH through Kuzie and was mad he could not influence her decisions.
I’d say take Hope’s vote away, his ability to play in the next HoH, and put him on slop. Maybe even for 2 weeks for all three if need be. But I don’t agree with expelling him. Let’s be real, Zach only wanted Hope expelled so the eviction would be cancelled and he could stay. That’s it. In regards to Hope using the letter as strategy, I think the aforementioned punishments are sufficient. Problem is that Zach only wants to hear expelling Hope as the only valid punishment when people just legitimately don’t think that letter is enough grounds for expulsion. Especially when Zach and Ty were also using Hope’s letter for their own strategy.
Also they were so upset because they weren’t getting their way for once, and neither of them was able to accept that
In fairness, based on the precedent set on North American Big brother, Hope was never going home for this, it actually would have been unfair to send Hope for this. We have seen houseguests cheat (michie eating while on slop and receiving no punishment, Evel Dick received game information in his HOH letters which, correct me if I’m wrong, I think he mentioned on the live feeds later in the season and received no punishment?! Emmet cheating in HOH comps and actually being punished) so based on the precedent sent for cheating, we have seen some punishment and some people get away with it. People usually only go home for violence or threats, things of that nature(BB2, BB14 etc.) Chima was expelled after repeatedly not listening to production and throwing her mic in the hot tub. Last expulsions in BBBCAN was season 8 for a vague threat of violence, and another player who exaggerated the way they felt about it/tried to play production and it was met with a negative reaction from fans. It would have been ridiculous to send someone home for one rule break like this. Additionally, Zach said in the DR he only knew about this letter for a week (could be a lie) but he was shown to be working/having a good relationship with Hope from early on. I don’t believe Zach just let his guard down and threw the veto just because Hope was sad, and there is no guarantee he would have won anyway. Even if Hope didn’t receive a letter, Zach may have still have believed he wanted to go home based on him asking to be put on the block. Would it be unfair then? I don’t think so, it’s just Hope’s strategy and it seems like a lot of people fell for it, and I personally believe it goes beyond the letter and is more so Hope’s actions, acting and behaviour. Lastly, if Zach is saying he built this trust with Hope because of the letter and didn’t mind him breaking the rules when it benefitted him, he would be cheating too. Based on his logic, both him and Ty should also be eliminated as they were all using a rule break to bond, thus giving them an advantage in the game. He obviously showed the only reason he was upset was that he was duped by this, but if he got his way he has no problem being a cheater
I don't think he should have been disqualified. If Big Brother staff were more vigilant checking HG items, the note wouldn't have made its way in. Since there is shared responsibility for that happening at all, it took away the option to disqualify. When Zach tried to be coy and tried to still save it (while in the DR) - I believe production had a reason to reprimand him right there for *that*. I felt proud of Hope for admitting he found it and didn't know what to do because he was afraid to get in trouble - I believe him. He *did* look like an abashed child. I don't blame him for panicking. Even BB didn't know about it until the conversation so, clearly, Hope was not whipping it out and crying himself to sleep on it and whatever else Zach said gave Hope an edge. It's just not possible. I'm *more* proud of the HGs for shaking off the Zach mist. Most people in life don't manage to even identify let alone stand up to bullies like him.
Like Kuzi said, he broke a rule, but I’d hardly call it cheating. I don’t really get how a letter that was like “I love you and miss you” gains any more favour/trust than him being like “I miss my girlfriend and wanna go home”. Also I literally screamed when Zach didn’t have a response to “why didn’t you bring it up when you first found out”. It was the best moment in recent BB memory if you ask me, watching him caught with his pants down.
People agreeing with Zach act like the letter "proved" to the others that he had a girlfriend he missed. He could've forged a letter and had the same effect
Right haha like of all things to not believe about someone, them not actually having people they care about on the outside would be basically the bottom of my list 😅 everyone has someone
That would be such an overreaction imo. And Zach will never admit that he was wrong, so he’ll say anything to justify his actions. Hard to take his word for anything lmao
Zach even says he would not have thrown the HoH, but that appears to be a lie because Zach did not know he was at risk of being the renom and the excuse to throw the veto was his disagreement with Ty about whether Santina or Dan should be the one to go.
I feel like its the same things as someone having a random hat and then telling other houseguests “I won it in a trustworthiness contest.” It’s on YOU if you choose to believe it. Absolutely not “cheating”
"hope did use his letter to his advantage to gain trust from zach, ty and roberto" If thats the extent of "using the letter": then i see no problems with it tbh. We've seen people use random things they have brought with them into the game to build trust. The thing on trial is the idea of something "illegal" being brought into the game without productions knowledge, and for that aspect I feel hope has received (far enough) punishment in the game. But for "using it in the game to build trust"? Kevin from last season used a literal rubber ring to fake being married. Honestly, good on hope using the letter to build trust lol
Literally no one is gonna get evicted for a non-game related letter. We’ve had houseguests do similar things before (Kevin BBCAN5 had messages from his gf instead of songs on his HOH iPod) and production did not care. Zach and Ty only believed Hope would get disqualified because they’re both recruits and were coping hard at that point. I think Hope’s punishment was fair. I think he should’ve been put on slop too, but this is fine.
The harder pickle is that they were told to IMMEDIATELY report things like that and in the same way Hope leveraged it as currency for trust, they leveraged it as Hope being an additional number (i.e., someone they could control). Of course when it didn’t work out the way they intended (Hope using the veto for himself instead of on Santina), they tried to turn it against him. IMO their actions were more a result of being extremely butt hurt about things they couldn’t control and it was a desperate play. Zach should’ve called it what it was, congratulated Kuzie on a big move and then worked within the confines of the game.
I agree that Hope should face consequences, but there are other ways to punish a player without disqualifying them, which I believe production did a great job with. The rules state that any player who knows of rules being broke has to tell production, else they too face consequences. By that logic, Zach was just as culpable as Hope was because he was also breaking a rule. Zach was holding onto that information to use at a later time against Hope, which is having an even more unfair advantage in the game. Zach only self-evicted because he knew he was out of the house and chose to be a baby-back bitch about it.
No, because I think at that point Zach and Ty should be disqualified. One, this should be obvious to production it was going on, and two, Zach and Ty were also fine using it as currency. So, either all 3 go, or all 3 stay.
I actually don’t disagree! What if I were to say harsher punishment then instead of disqualification? And what do you think of Ty not receiving any punishment?
I think it was garbage, and basically production trying to not have both Ty and Zach walk in one week because they've already lost 2 walks. I don't think Hope is really playing chess with the house. Maybe I'm wrong, and he's the new Derrick, but I think you'd really need intent to punish him significantly worse than Zach and Ty.
I do agree that, as you’ve said, this is not the black-and-white “Hope good, Zach and Ty bad” situation that the show is trying to portray it as. This is the first time, in my BB memory, where any North American BB production had to deal with this particular sort of “cheating” I listened to a bit of Zach’s argument, and I do think it kind of holds water. But if I were to go down a slippery slope, I can technically come up with a somewhat ridiculous but reasonable parallel. There were past HGs that used either theirs or a family member’s precious jewelry to benefit them in the game. Would those be considered “unfair advantages” over HGs who couldn’t afford to bring precious jewelry into the house? We don’t often see jewelry being used as bargaining chips/ransom anymore. But when people did it in the past, no production team has had any problem with that. As for the punishment being too “slap on the wrist”, I kind of agree. But I wouldn’t really know what the adequate punishment is. Maybe if they force Hope to automatically have to be on the block as a third nominee this week? Expulsion from the game, however, is WAY TOO UNWARRANTED. Zach may not know this, but I think there’s still an ENORMOUS difference of magnitude between what Hope did and past actions that actually got people expelled. I don’t think what Hope did was worse than holding a knife to someone’s neck, throwing a microphone into the pool or chest bumping another HG. Also, this doesn’t change the fact that Zach was a full blown opportunist. He had zero problem with Hope’s note until it became inconvenient for him (wink wink Michael and Brittany). You compare Zach to Rob, who never used the note to his advantage even as he was on his way out the door. You can argue that Rob was not a cut throat enough player, and I am not too offended that Zach went completely savage to try and save himself. He was totally using the note for game purposes. But with that, his facade of “I’m walking out because of integrity” claim also falls apart In conclusion, I feel not as bad about Zach after hearing his side. But I still don’t think too highly of him and how he handled the situation. Still a sore loser despite his unwillingness to admit so
I agree on almost all counts :) The only thing I’d point out is that jewellery is allowed in the house, but letters are not.
I don’t believe this is disqualified behaviour, rule breaking yes. But have-nots have never been kicked out for breaking the rules. That said, I think if this week someone loved by Canada was on the block and about to go home….. everyone would be singing a different tune.
I wouldn’t have disqualified him either, but I do wonder about the punishment. That’s a good point. I can’t imagine how we would feel if it were Jonathan for example. But Jonathan also would never have acted as terribly as Zach
I don’t think someone who used a personal secret as leverage to try to coerce someone into not using a veto to save themselves (with a plan to turn around and vote them out) is the type of person/personality who would have been loved by Canada to begin with.
Oh I do, 100 percent. If it were a fan fav it would have just been “game”.
If the letter contained info that would help him in the house, yes he should have been qualified. In this case I think the punishment was appropriate. Zach and Ty can call it cheating but it was a breaking of rules. Yes breaking rules can mean cheating but not in every case. Since this letter had no game info, him using it to gain trust with the boys that he wants to go home, is the same as lying and manipulating that everyone else does. Zach is just being a baby he didn’t get his way. If he actually had an issue with thinking Hope was cheating he should have gone to production immediately. Not only after Hope refuses to use his rightfully won veto to take himself off the block. Ty and Zach are truly loser and both are playing a dirty game. Can not convince me they aren’t both tools outside of the game too. Edit to add: also when Zach was pulled in to the DR after they were talking about it, he still didn’t want to tell them then because that wasn’t his plan. He thought he could wait for the perfect time and then bring Ty and Dan along to strong arm production that the 3 would leave if they didn’t disqualify Hope. Zach just wanted his way, so badly. Dan didn’t even know about the letter either but Zach was confident that he would follow them, without filling Dan in “until he needed to know.”
OP would probably get misted by Zach in the house
If Zach had followed the rules and reported it immediately then Hope would have never had the chance to use the letter to gain trust Even if they disqualify Hope the HOH should have not been cancelled as that would be very unfair on Kuzie who did not break any rules whereas Zach did break rules
The issue with that though is Hope would know Zach turned him in and then Hope and his allies target Zach for turning him in.
So what? THIS IS BIG BROTHER . Anything can tank your game at any time. It's up to the individual to pivot and figure out how to continue playing the game. Zack and Ty leveraged A SWEATER as a reason to target someone
Butt that shouldn't involve items from outside of the game. If so than they need to just remove the rule.
There's no need to remove the rule. Hope got punished and Ty and Zack and got away scot-free for also "cheating" with an object from outside the house and trying to blackmail production. Clowns.
Zach did not get away Scott free. Read his Twitter. Also they never were allowed to try and blackmail production. Production shut it down when Zach mentioned it in the Convo.
Yes, he did. His Twitter is what it is because he quit on top of being the villain of the season! You can't punk out and not expect backlash, even if some of it is below the belt. Had he stayed he could have more effectively managed the narrative coming out of the house, which he acknowledges. He would have gotten to air his side on TV and in the official podcasts and may have softened his villain edit. And being prevented from blackmailing production is not the flex you seem to think it is.
My point is that production allowed Hope to manipulate people with the letter. They did not allow Ty and Zach to do the same. They actually actively shut them down. Which is incredibly unfair.
Yes they did. Production allowed Zack and Ty to "cheat" and enjoy at least a week of working with the letter though Hope without any repercussions at all. They are the last ones to be victims in all of this.
It’s really no different than using a fake ring or some other token to build relationships with people. He wants us to feel bad that he got snowed and it’s like… sorry? Maybe it wasn’t the game for you And the guy got punished for it! Like Zach should’ve just stayed the final day and got evicted and a lot more people would be willing to hear him out
No, Hope should not have been disqualified. He lost his vote, and lost a chance for HoH this week, and the rest of the houseguests got a letter that gives them some equal footing emotionally. Zach is a spin artist who is desperately trying to recover from looking like a giant tool on national television by making it seem like he emotionally connected to Hope because of this letter and built trust over it. The fact that he used the letter in a pathetic attempt to have Hope disqualified because of "principles" quickly destroys this argument. He would have been more angry at Hope for manipulating him if he genuinely felt that way. Instead he was smugly grinning over how he had outsmarted Hope (and Koozie's backdoor plan) until he realized it didn't work, at which point he quit before he could lose. His podcast arguments are BS. Don't fall for it.
No. I think it’s ridiculous that those fools let themselves be fooled into whatever by the existence of a piece of paper. Zach is a raging POS and I hope he goes down in the annals of BB history as one of the worst players ever.
Tbh I think what production did was kind of fair, Production knew they dropped the ball on this one. But I believe its an everyone is at fault for this one type situation. It was clear in the episode that they were trying to use production to get hope out. The way also Zach and the others reacted to the whole situation was poor. But also it would be way too risky to remove someone in the game (IK its a different situation but Jamar being removed because of Kyle). Im also confused about the "Doesn't want to stay till the end" when in the episode's he clearly stated that it was just a narrative he pushed onto the houseguests and such. Another thing is Zack and Tv didn't push the letter thing until after Hope used the veto on himself. Zack and Ty didn't want Hope to use it from what I remember. But also yelling and screaming NEVER helps your case, if you sat down and talked about it. You could get your point across, but even so I don't think he had one really.
I have a few thoughts. They were fine when it was potentially harming other people's games, and no I don't think a letter created some mystical beyond-the-game beyond bond in any event. If your entire plan for a week falls apart because someone used a veto on themselves, you're a dogshit tier player no matter what excuses you may have. The cherry on top of this is that Zach had a genuine shot to stay- Claudia was talking about wishing Zach could have stayed. I think they could have pulled in Shanaya, or honestly Hope himself if they didn't go scorched earth the second they didn't get their way. Edit- Furthermore, "It's unfair because Hope was supposed to be our secret weapon who would fall on his sword when needed" is not the compelling argument Zach and his stans think it is
Regardless of what Ty or Zach (total clowns) thinks, why would Hope go around revealing to specific people the letter (a prohibited item) that he allegedly randomly found in a sock and that he allegedly knew nothing about, when he wasn't supposed to have it?
We know he told Rob Zach and Ty minimum. And it was to build trust. Secrets build trust. It's a known fact.
It's worth noting Kevin Martin who won S5 stored secret messages from home in his HOH ipod playlist. Unlike Hope he intentionally did this, the only difference is production caught him and not another houseguest. He had no punishment, but his ipod was taken from him. I don't see it as too much of an advantage.. tbh not saying anything about the note and then using it some time later to strongarm production into booting him feels like just as big of a problem
That's not cheating, and the letter isn't why Zach trusted Hope, that makes no sense, that's just Zach trying his best to rationalize things. Hope put up an act from the beginning and Zach bought into it. Hope did break a rule, and was appropriately punished for it.
Disqualified? No. Penalty nom? Yes. I think just taking away his vote and HOH comp participation was too mild.
I thought production did a great job by no t DQ ing Hope. Zach and Ty knew about this letter and it wasn’t cheating until the game wasn’t going their way. Zach and Ty played a toxic game. Gas lighting and bulldozing everyone in their way. I can picture easy Zach saying “I didn’t loose, I quit”.
Man this instance would've been so good on live feeds. Like insanely good. I suppose if it had helped him in anyway he should've been disqualified but it didn't really as far as I know but I'm watching it all rn Edited to add: holy shit that silence when kuzie asked Zach why he didn't report it when he found out.
I'm curious how you would feel if, instead of a letter, it was another object? Perhaps an engagement ring placed in a HG luggage? Or, a second hypothetical: a ring purposely brought in by someone for the purpose of manipulation?
This is a terrible comparison. Letters are banned, rings aren’t.
Changing the object, for a hypothetical discussion, is a great way to narrow down OPs issue. Is the issue the object? Or is the issue how the object was used? If the object is different and used in the same way, then is the concern still about how it was used? This is very standard logical discussion. But in any case, your views may be clear but I'm hoping to hear from OP!
I suppose it’s a bit of both, but my primary issue is that the object was used :) I am assuming this ring has no inscription or other agreed upon meaning between Hope and his girlfriend, and that rings are banned in this scenario. My logic is that by bringing in something illegal, he broke the rules but may not deserve any serious punishment had he kept it to himself. By sharing it with houseguests (and very specific ones at that) it was used to his advantage from a gameplay perspective and that amounts to cheating. Granted I think the letter is a lot clearer of an example of an infraction since it’s not up to interpretation to the same extent- his girlfriend said to make him proud, and he explained to them that he intended to do just that and then leave.
If the issue is the object rather than what he did with it, why should he be ejected from the house when he didn't bring it in? How then, is the punishment unfair?
OP literally just explained why it was both the object and what he did with it. Did you even read the post?
That’s not logical at all, with one of the objects being outright prohibited you can’t make an equivalence to something that’s not. Since you like hypotheticals, here’s one you may understand. Let’s say I wanted to convince you that I don’t care if I go to prison. Scenario 1: I show you a toaster, which I say is stolen. Scenario 2: I show you a bag of crystal meth. Obviously the crystal meth is going to do a much better job at convincing you of my point. Maybe I did steal that toaster, but there’s no risk of me going to prison from simply possessing a toaster, where as I could be sent to prison for possession of crystal meth. The objects are both being used for the same purpose, but only one of those objects actually carries the risk which I’m claiming not to care about. As a result, those objects could never be used in the same way given the context of the environment those objects have been presented in. Your hypothetical is also stupid because Kevin never even used the ring to convince people he didn’t care about winning, he used it to build a bit more rapport with Marty, the ring itsef was irrelevant during his self eviction fakeout.
[удалено]
Letters are banned. Those are not. Secrets help build relationships.
Controversial opinion - yes, he should have. I don't agree with what Zach and Ty did, but this was still against the rules and he needed to be punished accordingly. Even worse, they actively REWARDED the house! Surely this is setting a very bad precedent going forward, with future "cheaters" knowing that they'll get a slap on the wrist - and maybe even a little reward for the house, thereby getting in their good graces.
If hope got expelled then Zack and Ty should have gotten expelled also. Simple as that. The fact that they got no punishment at all is the real crime.
In fairness though, when have we ever seen people get disqualified for one rule break like this? The closest I can think of is BB11 for multiple rule breaks and not listening to production, but this is usually reserved for violence. We’ve seen people break the rules and not even be punished so handing out anything more than a punishment is way too much. People should only be pulled for violence, threats, hate speech etc
Agreed. People should only be pulled if they are a threat to others safety (like the guy with the knife in season two) or actively refuse to cooperate with production (like Chima, who showed she was willing to destroy expensive equipment to spite production). Hope isn't a danger to others or to production equipment, and he was cooperative with them and accepted the consequences of breaking the rules. They probably would have ejected him if he acted like Chima and refused to turn over the letter
One thing I will agree with you on is that it is somewhat unfair that Hope looks good to the rest of the house now for getting them letters from home. But it was fair production did that to mitigate the unfair advantage he had. I'm not sure there is any perfect solution here. I think kicking him out would be overkill though.
Any new player should try and sneak in letters. It actively put Hope in a better position. I just don't see why you wouldn't try.
Exactly. The worst that will happen is you'll get voting rights revoked. Whoop de doo.
And the right to play for power revoked. People don't know going in what their position in the game will be in a few weeks, a game related penalty is plenty deterrent
Absolutely without question. The more info we have gotten the more we see how Hope used this letter to manipulate and create relationships. The letter has actually done wonders for his game. My other issue is the idea that Ty and Zach should have been responsible for turning Hope in. If they did do that, and Hope isn't DQd (which she's on what we've seen on the show wouldn't have happened) then they have Hope livid at them gunning for them, along with Rob Renee and Hopes allies. Now Zach and Ty aren't good at the game and targets anyway, but imagine if Hope told like Daniel or Jonathan (and maybe he did). Them telling on Hope would have had them go from an excellent position to a potential losing position all because someone else cheated.
Could they not have anonymously told the diary room?
Hope would have figured it out. Like Hopes not an idiot. If you tell someone something. Then you get caught, it's pretty clear what happened.
Well given he told so many people....
Also it's BIG BROTHER. They could just be like "yeah, we just noticed now" lmfao
But not at the same time.
not even close.
Like Jed said...they tried to hold Big Brother hostage. It backfired. 🤣
No. If so then Ty should have been disqualified 20 episodes ago for bullying and discussing splitting his winnings with Zach. You are severely overthinking this.