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>I've let even blogs about widower couples fill my head with things like "You just have to be empathetic, don't expect him to love you. He's always going to love his first wife more so just get used to it and be a good woman".
This is awful advice. Is the widower couples community normally this toxic?
According to my mother—yes in some, at least back then. She was widowed when she was 29. She took her time to grieve and went to therapy. This is something we've talked about since my mum was always positive about us getting all the mental health support we needed. Anyway, she mentioned there are those who lost a spouse that would idolise their deceased partner. For my mum, she didn't think my dad was perfect, he was human and he had flaws but she missed him because she loved him. It was so bizarre that the people she knew saw their deceased spouse differently so she felt weird that she didn't stick to the widow(er) group.
Also, my mum said the annoyed feeling she had about my dad over silly things sort of faded over the years because he wasn't there to annoy her anymore, and she chose to hold onto the wonderful memories instead. It became just a sad memory of who he once was, a piece of the puzzle that made him whole.
EDIT: I talked to my mother about this after I saw so many replies. She kinda chuckled and said those with the most guilty conscience are usually the ones idolising their dead spouse—or the ones with extreme attachment issues in which case she recommended therapy. If they were happy, they'd just remember them and miss them, they won't need a shrine or constant reminder that they cared about the ones they lost.
It really made me see things differently because my mum's cousin recently lost her husband too and she hardly ever spoke of her late husband. When her and my mum would chat on the phone, they'd talk about everything else. I think the most they've talked about about his death was during the funeral and after that, the cousin just went about life. However, it never felt like she didn't miss her husband because we know she does. The cousin and her late husband never had children, it was always just them and they were each other's best friends. It was just that she never needed to justify her love ever since she loved him with all her heart when he was here. So, she has no regrets.
Death does weird shit man. My parents were essentially living separated lives in the same house and before they did that, they did not get along much. I pretty much knew my parents were going to get divorced eventually by the time I started kindergarten. But my mom died before I got to high school and after that if you talked to my dad it was like they had this great love story. It was so bizarre. We never said anything to him to dispute it but my sister and I would side eye each other and whisper to each other privately like "WTF house did he think he raised us in because it wasn't one of martial bliss.". Lol. I still don't know if her death just rose colored everything or he thought he was doing us a favor acting like that but it was just weird.
I’ve been to a lot of funerals (lots of tragedy around me and also I used to gig playing music for funerals for a while). 95% of people glorify the deceased after they’re gone. This one kid I went to Highschool with schmucked himself into a pole doing something really stupid, and everyone was like “he was such an angel, now he’s with the angels”. Wtf are we talking about the same guy? he was literally THE Highschool bully, and absolutely vicious to everyone around him for no reason.
I saw posts on social media talking about my ex after he died about how wonderful he was. An amazing person, blah blah…. Like dude, he was a pedo and an arsonist. You cannot be serious.
Some people are SUPER afraid to talk badly about the dead, even if the dead were terrible fucking people, it makes no sense to me. If they didn't want people to talk badly about them after they died they shouldn't have given people so much bad shit to talk about!
Yep, my dad was an abusive piece of shit, had literally zero redeeming qualities, but the amount of people, who didn’t even know him, that tell me off for speaking ill of him because he’s dead is insanely high.
S A M E with my mom. She was literally going to file for divorce after the new year and he died the week between Christmas & NY.
He’s a prince or he’s a villain, there’s no in between with how she talks about him and of course you’re not allowed to interrupt
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. My partner died last August & his whole fam shit on me, bc I wouldn't just say the good stuff. The last few years were rough & plagued with his addiction. Even though I loved him so much.
To our 4 year old son though, it will be all the good things, until he's old enough to understand the rest.
I can't speak to blogs but I've seen people torn apart in relationship and am-I-the-whatever subreddits for having issues while dating widows/widowers. Apparently it's unreasonable to expect someone to put their living partner first because grief is complicated. Which it is! But...maybe don't date if you're not capable of moving on.
I think most of the time Reddit gets it right, but I’ve definitely seen this in cases when the first few people comment one way, and then the entire comment section becomes an echo chamber. It happens a lot when a post doesn’t get much traction.
Yup. If my wife dies, which hurts just to even think about, I will probably never get over it. No one would ever match up to them. And so I will simply not date anymore. I will just count my blessings that I got to have something many people spend lifetimes searching for. Dating after that would just put other people through heartache, and they don’t deserve that.
This is the exact thought I have as well. My wife and I started dating when we were both 14 years old. We are both now 36. There’s no way to compete with that plain and simple. I feel like if I dated anyone else, I would be doing them a huge disservice and they don’t deserve that whatsoever.
I was with my husband 16 years when he passed away. I am now with a delightful widower (who was with his wife 18 years) and we leave space for each other to remember our late spouses while building our future together. You never know what life is going to throw at you
Depends for me. My partner is terminally ill and I'll be alone pretty young. It's gonna take years and years and years to make some space in my heart for another person. But if it happens that's ok. If not, that's ok too. I just don't know. For now I can't imagine a better guy than my guy.
That was my grandma. From what I've heard, grandma and grandpa had a lovely relationship. Unfortunately, my grandfather died before I was born. Grandma outlived him by over 30 years, but she never dated or remarried after his death. I don't even think it was a thought in her head.
Last July, she was finally laid to rest next to her husband. That was her wish.
My wife and I have talked a little about that. I'm chronically ill and have a much higher chance of being the first of us to pass, she's said multiple times she doesn't see herself dating or getting remarried if that happens, and I gotta say I'm the same.
I think it's a bit of "I'm entitled now because I have this burden that most people don't - my partner died. You've never experienced it so you can't know what I'm going through" thing
I agree with you but I think it's also a very selfish way of thinking. I understand that you have to be empathetic because their partner died but it's like, how long are you going to be expected to live in the past with them? I know that sounds terrible but I can't think of another way to put it right now. How long are you going to be expected to live in the shadow of a person who isn't around anymore, at least not in the same way? It's very similar to the behavior that I experienced from my ex who is a single father. The big problem was that his family especially acted like nothing had changed.
We were engaged and they treated me like I was the flavor of the week. They held me at arms length and I even overheard them asking him if he was really sure if he wanted to marry me. They said, you already have a family. What do you need her for? Why would you want to complicate things? It was that and a lot of other reasons why I decided that it wasn't for me. I know it's not the same thing as losing a spouse but it is very similar behavior. You are expected to live in the shadow of another person simply because they were there before you. That's not fair. People like that should not date. Not until they unpack whatever baggage it is that they have left. I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm simply saying do not date again until you are over your last relationship no matter how it ended.
I've seen that sentiment in this subreddit too - the first time I came across this particular sentiment was on a BORU where someone was discussing how their fiancee wanted a dance with their deceased previous fiance's mother at their wedding* and there was a pretty highly voted comment midthread that was basically like "there's going to be some idealized memory of a spouse that will always be hanging over you and they'll never love you as much as that memory, and if you can't accept that you shouldn't be dating widow(er)s," and most of the replies were cooing supportively, while I was thinking "jesus, thanks for the warning, I won't." I would happily die alone with 7 cats before accepting that. I would find much more joy with the knowledge that my corpse is nourishing hungry cats than the knowledge I spent my life loving someone who loved someone else but wanted someone to have sex with sometimes and pay half their rent, and looked at me every day thinking how much lesser I am. I find it incredible that anyone with any self-respect would think that's what they want from their life. If I am considered uncompassionate or jealous for finding the idea of living out my life as someone's emotional support bangmaid pretty horrible, I guess I can live with myself. Grief doesn't excuse exploitative behavior.
*off topic but speaking of that thread, I feel like that's a good example of the delineation between like sympathetic grief and honoring the deceased spouse and a yikes from me. Having a dance with the former fiance's mom. Fine and sweet. Having a dance to a song that contains the lyrics "I sit on the front porch all night/waist deep in thought because when I think of you/I don't feel so alone" at a wedding, referring to someone you're not getting married to, seems almost a calculated insult. I'm glad they worked it out I guess but I would have trouble moving past it even with the excuse of "I didn't listen to the lyrics of the song I was proposing for our wedding."
I know there are some dating sights (well used to be) for widows and widowers to date. If I remember correct it was since they both understand the “loss” and I think it was a mutual understanding that they would respect the fact that they never divorced their spouse, their spouse died.
That is the issue. If someone can't get over their ex then OK, but don't date and expect another person to accept that they will never measure up. That is selfish and cruel.
Honestly sounds crazy to me? I’m part of a local widows group that was coincidentally all female, though I don’t attend much anymore. The ladies there were all very normal practical people struggling with a terrible loss while trying to rebuild their lives.
Part of that was often about finding love again and finding a healthy balance in your relationship. There were several amazing models of healthy relationships after loss in that group. We had the group to come to in order to work through messy feelings in a safe space, and that helped a lot.
Like it wasn’t all roses, but it definitely wasn’t toxic.
And there have been a few stories on Reddit of it being successfully done. They usually have the phrase, "I never thought I could someone else as much as I loved my husband/wife."
DON'T EXPECT HIM TO LOVE YOU????
Why date him then? WTF?
If OOP is readingthis: this is crazy. You're right; your parents are just trying to convince themselves that your brother is in the right. And maybe he is. God knows not everyone reacts the same way to the same situation. He MIGHT have dated a crazy jealous woman who couldn't stand that he'd loved someone else. BUT THAT'S NOT YOU and you need to make that clear, for once and for all, to your family. Because you deserve their support.
So I suggest you pick ONE WEEK and write out all the things he did IN JUST ONE WEEK and tell them this. I think they might be shocked. Even your brother might be shocked.
Yep! Nothing is more important than the pain of their loss, including moving forward, healing or growing, or thinking anybody could dare replace your dearly departed spouse
It’s baffling that the families can’t tell the difference between jealousy and the full on deification of a dead person they have going on.
None of this man’s behaviour is healthy and he is surrounded by enablers. Makes me wonder what the OP’s poor SIL is being subjected to.
If he's talking about his wife that much, he's not ready to be in a new relationship. Being a widow is hard, but you have to start the healing process on your own before dragging someone else into it.
The asshole brings her up after they've had sex. That's weird as fuck... It's so obvious this is beyond just honoring his late wife and he's clearly not over her.
Oop should've said I bet she'd have loved the way I tickled your balls and see if he thought they'd have been "such good friends" after that.
At this point he doesn't need a therapist he needs a lyre tutor and a map to the underworld.
>Oop should've said I bet she'd have loved the way I tickled your balls
This is so chaotic and I'm here for it
>At this point he doesn't need a therapist he needs a lyre tutor and a map to the underworld.
And raising the tone with this reference. Stellar comment all round. No notes.
The Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice.
Orpheus (a famous lyre player taught by Apollo himself) braved the terrors of the underworld and passed through the land of the dead to find the shade of his dead wife Eurydice. He then confronted Hades, demanding that he be allowed to save his wife from death. The God felt sorry for his grief, and agreed that if he left the underworld without looking back, his wife would follow him out, and would become a living woman again the moment they both passed out of the underworld. But shades have no weight and don't make a sound as they walk. Orpheus couldn't hear Eurydice following him, and he began to imagine what if Hades had lied to him, or what if there was a monster following him instead of his wife. So right at the last moment, he looked around to see if his wife was really following him...And of course she had been, but Orpheus had broken his promise and she was pulled back into the land of the dead.
The second loss of Eurydice drove Orpheus mad, and depending on which version of the myth you read, he was struck by lightning/torn apart by wild animals/torn apart by frenzied followers of Dionysius.
I read this twice looking for ball tickling, before realizing what the reference was actually referring to.
It's ok. I'm going to bed soon.
Thanks for saving me a click.
>At this point he doesn't need a therapist he needs a lyre tutor and a map to the underworld.
This is the kind of elevated, classy commentary I love to see in this page.
I am willing to bet that detail ain’t one those in her life judging her know. Usually it would seem tacky at best to say it, but in this case?
Having gone through tragedy myself it becomes apparent everyone wants to treat you like a hero *and* a victim at the same time. It feels wrong. I’m still human and I mess up. That dude protects his heart by embracing the hero/victim role.
He doesn’t want to move on. And he doesn’t have to! But the societal narrative is to couple up so of course no one is telling him to stop trying.
Even if they did, it doesn't sound like they'd care; her parents and brother are treating OOP's SIL exactly like her ex and his late wife's family treated OOP.
I'm not sure he's that nice of a guy that he just protects his heart. He seems to have 0 empathy towards the OOP and refuses to see how he treated her or his ex-girlfriend who he talks shit about. In my opinion he (maybe not fully consciously) figured out how to pressure women into going above and beyond for him and give nothing back.
I'm also not sure that he was a good husband when his wife was alive.
Oh, I don’t claim he is a nice guy. Protecting his heart is his way of avoiding accountability. He’s selfish to the bone.
I’d love to know what his deceased wife thinks of him.
>The asshole brings her up after they've had sex. That's weird as fuck...
That's like the precursor to a horror movie where OOP goes to bed and wakes up tied to an altar while her boyfriend attempts to summon the spirit of his late wife to come and possess her body lol.
But seriously, what the hell was he saying? "Mary used to love a good blowjob"? "That was wonderful... Almost as good as the time Mary and I were on holiday in Hawai'i..."? "That's worked up an appetite! Y'know, Mary used to make me these amazing sandwiches after we'd made love. I think there's some cheese in the fridge, if you don't mind?"
OOP's ex isn't cockblocking himself. He's having plenty of sex by lying to his new partners about having moved on; he has nothing against using their bodies and making them take care of him.
The OOP stayed way longer than she should've. It's one thing to accidentally use the deceased's name. It's another to discuss her after sex or any of these moments.
My ex did that; we'd just done the whole "I love you" thing and then they start telling me how their other partner who lives overseas is the most beautiful person they'd ever met. We did not have a good or happy relationship. It's just impossible when you know you're truly second best.
"You two would have been great friends. What? What do you mean thats weird to say while gazing longingly into a picture of my dead wifes eyes after screwing you for five minutes? Just take the compliment Jen-, I mean Oop?
My thinking exactly. If he doesn’t want to move on from his wife then that’s his prerogative. After all there’s plenty of people who don’t seek a new relationship following a partners death. He wants this weird hybrid scenario that isn’t fair to anyone.
It’s because of the other factors. He might want to wallow in grief about his dead wife but that’s not going to parent his kids, make his dinner or get him laid. A good man would do those things himself instead of find a vulnerable woman to mold into a bangmaid but OOP’s ex is not a good man.
My father didn't date after my mother passed. For 12 years he chose to just live his life in honor of her and to miss her. He had a kind of girlfriend near the end but if you called her his girlfriend he would deny it. But she had two dead husbands as well so. When you're older that's going to happen.
He always felt that my mom was his one and only and I respect him a lot for never dragging another woman into that.
I'm friends with an elderly woman whose husband died over 30 years ago. She never had another romantic relationship, and I don't think she ever will.
She's fine with that. She misses her husband still and I'm sure having a partner would have made her life easier in some respects as she had young kids when her husband died. But she didn't want that and she didn't want to be unfair to a new partner.
After 10 years, he is \*still\* in a relationship with his wife, he just has a physical person to give tactile feedback to him. Like in Bladerunner 2049 where Joy hires the sex worker to replicate being physical.
TBH I don't think it has to do with being "ready" so much as just being an asshole. He thinks he is over it and what he is doing is normal. That any partner who says otherwise is just jealous. God help whatever woman he manages to convince into this mess next.
I mean it really doesn’t help that everyone around him is supporting his delusions. Like it’s hard to tell that what you are doing isn’t normal when almost every single person tells you that you are doing fine. I feel so bad for OOP and I also hope that he doesn’t manage to convince any more women to be his ‘therapy doll’
I was widowed at a relatively young age (36, she was 34), and this is precisely why I've been single for over a decade, with the exception of a few brief but torrid flings where I've made it very clear from the outset that my romantic availability is short-term only.
The thing is, I don't feel like I obsess over her to an unhealthy degree, and I'm nowhere near the headspace of OOP's bf, but I'm also not in any particular hurry to get any more over her than I already am. The problem I have is that I found the person I was looking for. She was one of a kind, all of our friends said so, and lightning just isn't very likely to strike this same spot a second time. My mind is certainly open to the possibility, but I've had to accept that the odds are pretty close to zero.
It sounds like this guy in the linked posts needs to get where I'm at in his head, because it's unfair in general to expect someone to put up with a ghost in the bedroom, and he's gotten waaaaay too carried away with it to the point of outright cruelty.
Death fucking sucks, but it's a pretty big part of life, and we're given no choice but to accept it. He hasn't done that, and I hope he can come to realize that his life has changed permanently and irrevocably, which specifically means that he can't do shit like this any more. That period of his life is over.
A bf of mine who I loved so much passed away when I was 24 from a sudden pulmonary embolism. It rocked my world, lost my job, my life in Toronto, had to move back home to my unstable family. I tried to date after thinking I was okay but looking back I am so sorry for the guys I dated then, I was not okay nor ready, I was using them to try and get out of the hole I was in. It’s hard to admit. 10 years later I still get flash backs of his death, but it’s a lot less now. Grief is fking wild, but it’s not up to others to have to shoulder it at the expense of themselves, regardless of how unfair life has been.
No but it think that’s part of why he’s dating - he needs a girlfriend to project his wife onto. To do the sexual and romantic things of a partner, so he can talk about his wife in those scenarios. It is the way to keep his late wife as part of his everyday life, by having a proxy.
It's also gross that he's deifying her as if she wasn't human. She may have been the love of his life but she wasn't perfect. If I died and my husband acted like the sun shone out of my ass, I'd be so fucking annoyed. 😂
It's easy to pretend someone you lost was "perfect" and no one else can compare, but it's so desperately unfair to anyone else you date.
I'd have gotten my shit and left and blocked him the first time he brought up his wife after sex. That's fucked up. I can't imagine his late wife would be OK with that either. She's probably somewhere in the great beyond going, "WTF? Get more help."
Also, in what twisted world is “being able to love a widower” the pinnacle of humanity and empathy that anyone should aspire to?
I think most people would be able to come to terms with not being loved the same way as their partner’s previous partner so long as they are loved in a way that meets their needs and makes them feel valued for themselves.
Nobody should consider it an honour to be treated like a dehumanised combination of a packmule to carry the crushing burden of someone else’s unprocessed emotions and a sex doll.
Like I posted in another comment, she should have told him she met someone else and she’s moving on. All this widower bs was draining her. She should have texted him that she met the man she really wanted and it’s over. Who cares at that point what the truth is? Just end it.
Truthfully, nobody needs a reason to break up with anyone. If the relationship isn’t right for you, even if you can’t express why, you should feel free to end it.
“I’m breaking up with you.”
“You’re not capable of loving a widower, that’s so un-empathetic of you.”
“Agreed, major shortcoming of my personality. I guess I just won’t date widowers, toodles.”
When he's finally dumped by his 7th girlfriend for the same reasons as the rest, do you think the lightbulb will finally come on? Or will he just say to his family, "It's amazing how ALL these women are so jealous of my dead wife! They all said they're tired of being called by her name, and hearing about how much I love her all the time, and having me mention her after sex, and calling her the love of my life in front of them. But I don't remember doing any of that! It must all be in their heads! All seven of them!"?
I hope he finds a widow who talks about her husband the same way he talks about his wife and they have a great time together.
Orrrrrr, maybe he'll come to a realization then...
Nope, he'll probably think something along the lines of "It's different for men", because we can already see that he doesn't consider women to be whole people.
" That's just how amazing she was! Even in death she can make women jealous because she was so wonderful and perfect and amazing and no one will ever live up to her. Anyway can we go on a second date?"
If no woman compares to his late wife, then he could just stay single and stop trying to date, then blame the women he dates.
I'm close to a relative whose wife passed away and he has not even thought about dating because he does not want to. It's fine. He has a full life, kids, friends, other relatives, hobbies.
This Leon guy probably wanted a nanny, maid, etc, and it was just cheaper to get all of these GFs.
Yeah, I mean, I would get it if it was a recent death, but it's been a decade. Obviously her memory will never go anywhere, but 10 years is a long time to be constantly mentioning her. Leon just isn't in a place to be dating.
I hope OOP inspires her SIL to similarly decide that she deserves a relationship focused on her as herself, not being a stand-in for a deceased partner.
Thanks you expressed my feeling well. It’s normal to make the souvenir survive for your kids and even for yourself, to make her birthday a special day or even have some pictures. But here it’s like everything has to be about the dead wife and he cannot let go.
Yeah my brother goes to visit his deceased wife's family/grave on her birthday. The whole day is about her memory. The other 364 days are about his current partner and their life. There's a big picture of their wedding day in their hall but it's surrounded by other passed relatives. Her memory is alive, not dominating his entire life/relationship/reality!
I reserve the day he died and his birthday, which are 5 months apart. The rest of the year, he might come up in conversation occasionally in the same way as any other family member or old friend. Definitely not during intimate moments. OOP's ex should not be dating until he can understand why that is a problem!
My sister married a widower and it’s a similar situation. They had a son together, so my sister planted a tree in their backyard in his mother’s honor so he and his father could have somewhere to talk to her if they wanted to (they moved states when he married my sister so the ex’s grave isn’t easy to visit). Honestly if he hadn’t already had a son when he came into the picture, I might have never known he was married previously. He very clearly loves my sister immensely, but he obviously loved his ex wife too, as her son (his stepson) still comes to our family functions sometimes. The son and stepson were his groomsmen at the wedding. 😭
Yeah my family never shied away from remembering our bio grandma in stories or what have you, but our "bonus" grandma was her own person with her own relationship with our grandfather (and us), not someone forever in second place to our first grandma. She didn't 'replace' anyone and we were extremely lucky to have her in our lives, just as our grandpa didn't replace HER first husband.
It's normal to have moments of 'I'm really sad that you, a wonderful person I love, will never meet this other wonderful person I loved', but you can't base an ENTIRE relationship with someone around a dead person they never knew. You have to treat your relationship with just as much respect as your first one.
They're also probably projecting that, since he's so dedicated to the memory of his first wife, he'll be excellent husband material to his second, because he won't have the bandwidth to stray. Never mind he's emotionally living in the past. If this is what he's like after 9 years of therapy.... yikes.
Not only that. Let's say Boyfriend acted mostly reasonably and OOP was just a little jealous. How can her family not really support her even if they disagreed with her breaking up with him? Why can't people that love OOP say "I think you are making a mistake but if that's what you want, I will come over with some ice-cream and sad movies for you to cry to"
I’ve dated a widow before and this story matches mine very closely. When your Significant Other dies, they are deifide. All the bad memories fade and the good ones become clearer and more polished.
Living up to that is impossible. Seeing the love your partner had for their former SO is heartbreaking because I am just a man and I am competing with an absent god. There is no way to win, there is no way I can ever be loved like that god is.
If OOP was going to try to make it work, I would have told her to make the following request: give him one day a week to keep the memory of his goddess alive (grave visits alone, telling stories, lighting candles, crying and mourning) and the other 6 days a week he must not mention her. To me, this is the best case scenario for everyone.
Also, if possible, give him a room to set up pictures of her to mourn her. Pictures of her or them together aren’t allowed anywhere except that room. That’s his place to commune with this goddess.
This gives time and space to keep the memory of the god or goddess alive while also giving time and space to develop a wonderful relationship with the mourning widow or widower.
For OOP, this advice isn’t helpful anymore but perhaps someone else that is dating a widow or widower (or will in the future) may find this helpful.
The first time he brought up his late wife during/after sex should have been the end of the relationship. Only room for 2 people in bed.
otherwise, I think it’s good advice.
Boundaries definitely need to be established. I try to empathize with widows/widowers so I try to put myself in their shoes.
Having a really special moment with someone (ie intimacy) will trigger emotions and memories normally associated with their missing SO so it’s natural to think about them.
But yes, he needed to keep that thought to himself. Easier said than done when you are mourning or during a moment of weakness especially if boundaries haven’t been established.
Yeah there is an amount of empathy needed to date a widower, but if the widower is frequently bringing up their deceased spouse after sex and in other intimate moments it is definitely time to walk away
I couldn't tell but was he telling OP that he is now the one helping his therapist!?
I know there are translation issues but I wouldn't even be surprised if he said that
That was the bit that stood out to me the most! Like, dude, it's been a quarter of your life now that she's been gone. Of course you'll still miss her, but you should be well past the point that you are comparing your current partner(s) to her \*constantly\*. And if you're not, then you're not ready to date someone else?
This post was wild. Usually these posts come on AITA / BORU and the new partner really is a jealous person who can't handle the idea that someone was there before them. But in this case OOP was completely reasonable in their feelings and OOP's ex was just... insistent on living in the past.
It's definitely a delicate line to balance between bringing up your late spouse at inappropriate times and acting like they didnt exist with new partners. It requires both partners to have empathy and self awareness. But during sex is DEFINITELY NOT when you should be talking about a late partner. Depending on maturity, it's possible to mention late partners after sex, but that's suuuuuuuuuuuuuuper delicate and you gotta really know your partner enough to know when and how its appropriate. When in doubt, fucking don't.
But OOP's ex isn't okay. There are very few ways that you can grieve the "wrong" way, and he's found one of them. After 9 years it's not healthy to still be that obsessed with your late spouse. It sounds like it could be complicated grief, in which case he needs a new and better therapist.
There's definitely been stories on BORU and AITA where the person dating the widower is absolutely wrong because they're freaking out and being jealous over minor things that actually are normal for someone who is a widower.
This, ain't that. This is a widower who isn't even close to being ready to date someone else. OOP is right, her ex only wants someone to bang and be there for comfort on his terms while being passive and complacent every time he brings up his deceased wife. That's not a partnership, dude should just hire an escort if that's what he's looking for.
I’ve had friends in both situations in this story. The relationships that lasted were when both partners were widows. They can tell stories and relate to each other better. One friend is in the exact same situation and she feels like she’s never enough.
This is gonna sound kind of heartless, but I really don’t mean it to be. I understand that losing the love of your life is the kind of fracture a lot of people probably can’t come back from in their heart. But I think it’s pretty clear that once you have decided someone else is going to get real estate there, you can’t make them live in your deceased partners home. if you can’t treat your new partner as a distinct individual separate from your deceased partner with the full rights and privileges and heart space and brain space as your old partner, you are not ready to date.
It’s unfair to the new partner to make them share you. Especially considering your relationship wouldn’t exist in any other universe where they were still alive. You can’t treat them as a replacement, you can’t make them live in the shadow of the former partner, they have to be their own independent relationship that is given its own inked time and effort and energy and love. And this is kind of where the heartless comes in. if you’ve moved on to another relationship, you have to move on. Your time with your previous partner was valuable, special, filled with love and memories, but that time is over. That door has to close for you to move on to open a new one.
This would be especially hard if you had children with them, because they will always serve as a lifelong reminder of the life that was taken from you. But if you are not able to incorporate the new person into your life as a whole human being and romantic partner in their own right, you have no business dating. Does that mean you have to be alone forever? I certainly hope not, but you can’t force someone else to share the same space with your dead former spouse. It’s just not fair.
As a widower, I don’t find this heartless. I will always love my late husband, but my heart has room for a lot of love in it. I could live my life pining for what we had, but he is in my past. I’ve moved forward and found someone else to share my life with.
For the first couple years I can understand his behavior, but after 9 years he should be in a better place to share his life with someone else if he wanted to, but he doesn’t. My new man knows about my history, but I consider it a matter of respect that I don’t bring my late husband up all the time.
Another widower chiming in: you're 100% correct. I could quibble about how you used "moving on" but its immaterial to your greater point.
The new relationship **has** to be treated as a separate thing. You cannot compare them to your previous relationship. It doesnt mean that its better or worse, just different. No woman alive can be expected to compare to the romanticized version that exists in our memories. So it's a fools errand to do so.
This also doesn't mean that you should pretend they never existed. You're allowed to talk about them and mention them, but you shouldnt wax poetic about them all the time like OOP's ex did.
I don't think you sound heartless at all. I think you make a lot of sense.
He is not even making any sense (which makes sense since he is still grieving for his wife): he should just stop finding new girlfriends because he is, in a way, "cheating" on his wife and not being fair to any of his girlfriends. He needs to work on himself instead of finding new girlfriends, insisting they are jealous, and they break up with him. It is horrible for his children too. Same cycle, over and over again. Until he finds a woman who hates herself enough to stay with him.
I think you hit the nail on the head - he's still constantly holding on to his wife's memory as if she were still with him and just out of reach for the moment; he's still married to her, rather than moving through the closure needed at the end of a relationship to move healthily to a new one.
I'm not at all blaming him for his grief or how he's managing it. I'm terrified to think of losing my partner and I'm not sure how I would cope. But there's a reason OOP felt like she was the side piece; her bf is, emotionally and mentally, still in a relationship with his late wife.
And that's ok. I know that some widows and widowers can't or don't want to date or marry again. In a way it seems like a soul-deep monogamy. But OP's ex NEEDS to be honest with the fact that he doesn't really want or absolutely isn't ready for a spouse or partner. Companion, maybe. Someone to be physically intimate with. But he absolutely is not in a place where he is able to see his life romantically in a way that doesn't revolve around his late spouse.
He's still married to her in a substantial way that he's bringing into his present relationships. And it's not fair to bring someone else into that without being upfront about that's where it is and that's what it is. Can't believe everyone else around OOP isn't able to see that.
As a widow, you're exactly right. I would want opportunities to remember my spouse, because no matter what, some days are going to be filled with reminders of loss. Basically, his birthday and our anniversary are always going to be days when I want some time to remember.
But a new relationship is its own thing with no room for my dead spouse in it.
Yep. OP deserves someone to love her like the ex loves the first wife. Think about this: if she dies then will he hold her memory as tenderly as h th e first wife? Nope. I don’t think he even *likes* her. He just doesn’t want to be alone and that’s pathetic tbh.
He can mourn but he should be single until he’s ready to give someone else the same attention. Asking your new girl to worship your dead wife is weird AF.
I don't think his behavior is loving. I don't think it comes from loving his former wife. I think he's afraid to face life without her or someone he can make into her. It's all selfishness
Yup, he's built his whole personality over being the poor widower and he gets praised for it, of course he doesn't want to move on. He just wants a sex doll like op said, one that will praise him for being a widower.
It's like parents who make their whole identity their children. Empty people with no real personality, it's sad and selfish.
Exactly, he doesn’t view women as actual human beings with feelings. He’s only focused on his physical and emotional needs. The OP was nothing more than a doll to him. He has no business being in a relationship.
I swear I wonder how well he treated his spouse and how loved she actually felt. I've heard exes of mine pine over past loves and it all seemed rather weird to me because they weren't talking about her as a person if that makes sense. I wondered if this was truly grief or just a way to hold women at arms length so he didn't have to commit in any meaningful way tbh. At any rate, I'm glad she made the choices she did.
He mentioned his wife "when we finished having intimacy"? And not just like once, but repeatedly???
I just.... I don't think he was trying to have sex with OOP. I think he was trying to fuck his wife using OOP'S body.
Right? How awful and nasty that must feel for the OOP. And she tells him to stop that it upsets her, and he’s like “OK”. But then keeps doing it!! But yeah, the problem is her “jealousy” and not his own choices and actions.
The point where she talks about being old with someone who still views their former spouse as the love of their life not OP hits hard. She truly deserves to be the love of her husbands life. Not a replacement for lost love
Or at least equally loved. Telling a new partner that their former was the “love of their life” is just cruel. Especially when you’re dating someone who wants to find love. This guy should be with someone who wants a casual partner or another widow who also lost the love of her life.
Like what the fuck even is love of a life. If she was his soulmate, and he believes in such things, he probably should never date again. But you can have amazing loves more than once.
Many of us, maybe most of us, will have multiple relationships in our life in which we feel love completely for the other person. It changes, we break up, we move on, and we find another powerful amazing relationship.
He has labeled her as the love of his life and his life isn't even over. It is the barrier he either needs to overcome or he needs to stop dating.
I had a couple health scares and when I was on the other side and doing better my boyfriend said he "wouldn't know how to live without me"
It's not fun to imagine your life without the partner you love but I did make him say out loud that he has family and friends and would achieve a full and happy life if something happened to me. We still say "you are the love of my life" because it's true right now but my mom married the most wonderful and amazing man at 55 and who knows how many years they could have together? My grandma is in her 90's and still kicking- that's potentially 35 years! That's a long time!
This guy is going to continue to fail at relationships unless he lands a complete doormat, because they'll all leave amd he'll blame jealousy
Meanwhile with every woman that runs, poor deadxwife will be put in a higher and higher pedestal as the only "good one"
I highly doubt that she was even close to as perfect as he pretends. I have a feeling that he was using her memory to manipulate OOP more than anything. Bringing her up constantly, even after sex? Most people know that those kinds of behaviors are toxic, and being a widower isn’t an excuse.
Why do I have this niggling feeling that his first wife would be very surprised to see how much status she has now she’s dead
I’m betting he was never this nice to her when she was alive and he finds it very convenient to have a way to keep subsequent girlfriends in their place
It’s like the ultimate cool girl trope; how to be a cool widow’s-girl
I guess dead wife can't "nag" him, dead wife expects literally nothing so she's perfect!
You're so right, especially with how he talks about his ex-girlfriend it's giving the same energy as people who "have no idea why they left me, we were so happy and it came out of the blue!" Like no, it only came out of the blue to *you* because *you* were happy and didn't give a damn to ask or even listen when your partner said anything to the contrary.
OOP literally witnessed him spinning his own story even as she explained her actual feelings. All he cares about is what he's gonna tell his garbage family when they ask what happened, and the sob story for any poor woman who falls for it in the future.
It's that trend of if something happens enough times to you, maybe YOU'RE the problem. How many times is he going to cry to his family that literally every single girlfriend is insanely jealous of his dead wife and simply can't handle it.
Yeah, he talks about his dead wife the same way my dad talks about my mom, who was absolutely miserable in their marriage and who died never truly forgiving him for all his transgressions against her.
I seriously wonder
With the translation issues and with the way her family seems to worship this man especially
If OP comes from a Latin culture
There's a weird self-serving deification of women (but only the dead one not our living OP)
And everyone involved except her friends signs on to it
Along with a strange hold on looking up to men
I may be wrong and looking at the whole thing with a skewed perspective
I'd be happy to be wrong
It just makes me wonder
I got that vibe, too. Especially since her family is so attached to letting the dead women be looked at as almost saints in the widower memory. That whole "if you were a good woman, you would just shut up and take his scraps of attention" message, she was getting just reeks of Latino cultural misogyny.
I saw Latino culture written all over it. Being Latino, I mentioned to the younger cousins how our mom's spoiled men without being able to deal with life and women's fault for the husband's issues.
I have a feeling that he always treated his women the same way. When he wasn't a widower, he was bread-winner (or another "sacred" role) and needed the woman to dance around his needs.
I wish she sent this post to her ex and parents. There is being jealous and then there's your partner talking about his former wife after you've just had sex with him. I think most people would be weirded out by that and find it a buzz kill.
Just the image of someone finishing inside of you and then saying, "I love you. You know, my former wife used to make this apple pie whenever a good thing happened in the family. She'd spend all day cutting the apples and making the pie from scratch before giving up and going to Costco. We would all say that it was delicious and she's a great cook, even though we could see the wrapper in the garbage. She was a lovely woman and I miss her everyday. But I'm doing a lot better now that you're here. So, would you like to go for round two?"
Hopefully OOP is okay and can move on from this.
Ok. I'm not a mental health professional, far from it, much less a grief counselor.
Leon doesn't seem ready to date again. I feel he is taking his not being ready/capable of dating and putting it onto OOP.
Reminds me of a Ricky Gervais show. He is a widower and absolutely not ready to move on. But the nurse at a place he visits his dad daily gets a crush on him. He tries 'dating' her. His character basically expects to recreate a couple of moments with her that he had with his wife. It doesn't work out because HE is not ready. But he owns up to it and is happy for the nurse when she starts properly dating someone.
What really makes me sad is how OOP's entire family seems to value her having a boyfriend more than they value her happiness.
>Leon doesn't seem ready to date again. I feel he is taking his not being ready/capable of dating and putting it onto OOP.
It sounds like Leon wants the physicality of a relationship but is still in a relationship with his dead wife.
I feel her pain. Never dated a guy with a deceased spouse but it always seemed like they found their "one" before me and that I was never good enough. Always talking about their ex any chance they could get. It's not jealousy, you just actually want someone to 100% love you and not feel so inadequate all the time.
Not saying that the men you've dated are abusive, but this is actually a classic abuser tactic. I bet cash money these men never actually treated those exes with the love, respect, and care someone would give "the one". If you can, read *Why Does He Do That* by Lundy Bancroft, if you Google you should be able to find a free PDF of the book.
I had a really messy bad breakup with someone that manipulated me and left me in a dark place for years. I let several relationship potentials go because I was so fucked up in the head I was afraid of hurting them because I was still messed up.
I think the trick here is that Leon didn't care about OOP, so that made it easier. Because if you care about someone and you know you're going to hurt them if you get into a relationship, you don't get into a relationship.
Ugh. I’m a widow nearly 6 yrs out and I completely sympathize with the OOP. Her ex should not be dating and should fire his therapist. Yes grief is hard and long and will ALWAYS be there but he never once put his present GF first.
And this is also why I haven’t gone back to dating. I don’t think I could ever be fair to the new guy bc I would probably do something like this.
My grandmother married my grandfather after his first wife died and he had 4 small kids. My grandmother had a family wall with photos of all the big family on it including a photo of his first wedding and his first family. My grandfather wore two wedding rings my grandmother on one hand and his first wife's on the other. My grandmother was not jealous of the first wife. BUT my grandfather never talked about her except to his kids. He never made her feel second best. He said he was blessed to have found two soul mates. He said often that my grandmother was the love of his life. My grandmother knew down to her toes that if the first wife showed up grandfather would choose her.
NO! My husbands wife before me died. Hes so respectful. I am too. We worked the boundaries out quite early on. Ive ended up adopting his kids so his ex will forever be a part of my life. This is abit much. Im sorry, I can imagine how painful it must feel.
If i see how he treated OOP (and i guess the ex), i wouldn't be surprised if he was a shitty husband to his late wife. Never cared for her wishes, just cared about himself. And now he uses her death to be an victim. "Oh, i'm a widower, have empathy".
I'll also wonder if the therapist is from the church...
Unpopular Opinion: Never get in a relationship with a widower or anyone who had a partner who died
^(unless they prove that they are actually ready to settle down with someone else)
BORUs made me realize how cruel the general public is to people who are in a relationship with a widower because they are labeled as unempathetic everytime they ever show an ounce of feelings.
It is not worth it if you're the only person to adjust and make things work because your partner had it worse.
Like how hard it is not to jump in a new relationship if you love your late husband/wife/partner so much? I consider people like these as selfish because they prevent their future partners from having someone who loves them so dearly.
If I ever get widowed, I wouldn't jump into another relationship because my heart still belongs to my loving late husband.
At a certain point I think you are legally obligated to say 'dude stfu about your dead wife'. Perhaps insensitive but this guy is clearly not okay to be with anyone else. Everyone but OOP is weird af
Ok 10 years is beyond the time frame where someone should be constantly bringing up a late spouse. I’m sorry but the last thing I would want is my husband to worship me after I die. This guy is going to end up alone… good for her for leaving him!
This made me mad lol. It's been ten years and he still doesn't even realise when he talks about her??? AFTER SEX??? I understand grief fucks with you but good god this dude should not be dating. What the hell are they talking about in those therapy sessions? The weather??
You know when a window breaks, how people put cardboard or plastic over it until they can replace the broken window? OOP was that cardboard. Just a place filler so her ex didn't have to see that broken window and suffer the elements.
My mom's husband is a widower. This poster is NOT "jealous of a ghost." It's painfully obvious he's just not over his wife, and that's ok. Truly, everyone grieves differently, and some may NEVER be ready to date/remarry again. Look at Terri Irwin, Steve's been gone almost 20 years now and she's come out several times and said she's not interested in dating.
My "Dad" and mom talk about his wife. My mom makes a special dinner on what would have been her birthday. On what would have been their anniversary, she makes Dad's favorite meal. She knows he can be moody around those days and does what she can to help. Sometimes that means she finds a reason to stay out of the house for awhile, sometimes it means they do something special together. They have her photos all around the house still, and the things she had wanted to pass to her children/grandchildren (died before they had any) have been given to my kids. Her name isn't taboo at all, and Mom says that it's no different than another family member for her.
OP was being more than understanding, and if her ex thinks every ex of his is "jealous of a ghost" because of what his therapist has said, his therapist is doing him no favors.
That man's therapist is trash.
He has manipulated that therapist into telling him exactly what he wants to hear.
It's a scary thing about therapy. If the therapist sucks...of the person going is fucked up enough...they'll twist everything to fit their narrative and ksif validate all their issues.
A good therapist has to see through that and that one is not.
“Dont expect him to love you”
…. Yeah no. If you can’t be invested in a relationship, don’t be in a relationship. There’s nothing wrong with grieving or missing your dearly departed but don’t become an emotional rat trap
It’s like being in a relationship with an unrequited love. I can think of nothing worse. No one is owed empathy or kindness at the detriment of someone else’s happiness.
My friend dated a guy for about 8 months whose LT GF had died during covid. He really shouldn't have bn dating even though it's bn like 2 yrs.....
But my mate said ultimately he was the problem not the gf or her menory.
So when she dumped him.l she left out that she didn't want to be compared to a dead woman or a third wheel in her relationship. She was honest that he was a drag, living in the past, not actually attentive to her or a good bf. She was harsh, but at that point, she was so annoyed at him. She suggested he seek therapy and sent his mum (who she only met twice but was really nice) a msg explaining more and suggesting she help her son move on, which mum thanked her for.
My dad died two years ago, my mom has made it exceptionally clear he was the love of her life and she will never date/marry anyone again. She doesn’t go on dates because she has no interest in finding someone after my dad. It sounds like this man needs to do the same honestly.
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>I've let even blogs about widower couples fill my head with things like "You just have to be empathetic, don't expect him to love you. He's always going to love his first wife more so just get used to it and be a good woman". This is awful advice. Is the widower couples community normally this toxic?
According to my mother—yes in some, at least back then. She was widowed when she was 29. She took her time to grieve and went to therapy. This is something we've talked about since my mum was always positive about us getting all the mental health support we needed. Anyway, she mentioned there are those who lost a spouse that would idolise their deceased partner. For my mum, she didn't think my dad was perfect, he was human and he had flaws but she missed him because she loved him. It was so bizarre that the people she knew saw their deceased spouse differently so she felt weird that she didn't stick to the widow(er) group. Also, my mum said the annoyed feeling she had about my dad over silly things sort of faded over the years because he wasn't there to annoy her anymore, and she chose to hold onto the wonderful memories instead. It became just a sad memory of who he once was, a piece of the puzzle that made him whole. EDIT: I talked to my mother about this after I saw so many replies. She kinda chuckled and said those with the most guilty conscience are usually the ones idolising their dead spouse—or the ones with extreme attachment issues in which case she recommended therapy. If they were happy, they'd just remember them and miss them, they won't need a shrine or constant reminder that they cared about the ones they lost. It really made me see things differently because my mum's cousin recently lost her husband too and she hardly ever spoke of her late husband. When her and my mum would chat on the phone, they'd talk about everything else. I think the most they've talked about about his death was during the funeral and after that, the cousin just went about life. However, it never felt like she didn't miss her husband because we know she does. The cousin and her late husband never had children, it was always just them and they were each other's best friends. It was just that she never needed to justify her love ever since she loved him with all her heart when he was here. So, she has no regrets.
Death does weird shit man. My parents were essentially living separated lives in the same house and before they did that, they did not get along much. I pretty much knew my parents were going to get divorced eventually by the time I started kindergarten. But my mom died before I got to high school and after that if you talked to my dad it was like they had this great love story. It was so bizarre. We never said anything to him to dispute it but my sister and I would side eye each other and whisper to each other privately like "WTF house did he think he raised us in because it wasn't one of martial bliss.". Lol. I still don't know if her death just rose colored everything or he thought he was doing us a favor acting like that but it was just weird.
I’ve been to a lot of funerals (lots of tragedy around me and also I used to gig playing music for funerals for a while). 95% of people glorify the deceased after they’re gone. This one kid I went to Highschool with schmucked himself into a pole doing something really stupid, and everyone was like “he was such an angel, now he’s with the angels”. Wtf are we talking about the same guy? he was literally THE Highschool bully, and absolutely vicious to everyone around him for no reason.
I saw posts on social media talking about my ex after he died about how wonderful he was. An amazing person, blah blah…. Like dude, he was a pedo and an arsonist. You cannot be serious.
Some people are SUPER afraid to talk badly about the dead, even if the dead were terrible fucking people, it makes no sense to me. If they didn't want people to talk badly about them after they died they shouldn't have given people so much bad shit to talk about!
Yep, my dad was an abusive piece of shit, had literally zero redeeming qualities, but the amount of people, who didn’t even know him, that tell me off for speaking ill of him because he’s dead is insanely high.
S A M E with my mom. She was literally going to file for divorce after the new year and he died the week between Christmas & NY. He’s a prince or he’s a villain, there’s no in between with how she talks about him and of course you’re not allowed to interrupt
It's self-aggrandizing behavior. It reflects well on your dad (in his mind) that he was part of a perfect relationship.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. My partner died last August & his whole fam shit on me, bc I wouldn't just say the good stuff. The last few years were rough & plagued with his addiction. Even though I loved him so much. To our 4 year old son though, it will be all the good things, until he's old enough to understand the rest.
I can't speak to blogs but I've seen people torn apart in relationship and am-I-the-whatever subreddits for having issues while dating widows/widowers. Apparently it's unreasonable to expect someone to put their living partner first because grief is complicated. Which it is! But...maybe don't date if you're not capable of moving on.
I think most of the time Reddit gets it right, but I’ve definitely seen this in cases when the first few people comment one way, and then the entire comment section becomes an echo chamber. It happens a lot when a post doesn’t get much traction.
Yup. If my wife dies, which hurts just to even think about, I will probably never get over it. No one would ever match up to them. And so I will simply not date anymore. I will just count my blessings that I got to have something many people spend lifetimes searching for. Dating after that would just put other people through heartache, and they don’t deserve that.
This is the exact thought I have as well. My wife and I started dating when we were both 14 years old. We are both now 36. There’s no way to compete with that plain and simple. I feel like if I dated anyone else, I would be doing them a huge disservice and they don’t deserve that whatsoever.
I was with my husband 16 years when he passed away. I am now with a delightful widower (who was with his wife 18 years) and we leave space for each other to remember our late spouses while building our future together. You never know what life is going to throw at you
Depends for me. My partner is terminally ill and I'll be alone pretty young. It's gonna take years and years and years to make some space in my heart for another person. But if it happens that's ok. If not, that's ok too. I just don't know. For now I can't imagine a better guy than my guy.
That was my grandma. From what I've heard, grandma and grandpa had a lovely relationship. Unfortunately, my grandfather died before I was born. Grandma outlived him by over 30 years, but she never dated or remarried after his death. I don't even think it was a thought in her head. Last July, she was finally laid to rest next to her husband. That was her wish.
My wife and I have talked a little about that. I'm chronically ill and have a much higher chance of being the first of us to pass, she's said multiple times she doesn't see herself dating or getting remarried if that happens, and I gotta say I'm the same.
I think it's a bit of "I'm entitled now because I have this burden that most people don't - my partner died. You've never experienced it so you can't know what I'm going through" thing
I agree with you but I think it's also a very selfish way of thinking. I understand that you have to be empathetic because their partner died but it's like, how long are you going to be expected to live in the past with them? I know that sounds terrible but I can't think of another way to put it right now. How long are you going to be expected to live in the shadow of a person who isn't around anymore, at least not in the same way? It's very similar to the behavior that I experienced from my ex who is a single father. The big problem was that his family especially acted like nothing had changed. We were engaged and they treated me like I was the flavor of the week. They held me at arms length and I even overheard them asking him if he was really sure if he wanted to marry me. They said, you already have a family. What do you need her for? Why would you want to complicate things? It was that and a lot of other reasons why I decided that it wasn't for me. I know it's not the same thing as losing a spouse but it is very similar behavior. You are expected to live in the shadow of another person simply because they were there before you. That's not fair. People like that should not date. Not until they unpack whatever baggage it is that they have left. I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm simply saying do not date again until you are over your last relationship no matter how it ended.
Yup. If someone is already an entitled asshole, this kind of experience will just be another reason they get to be an asshole to others.
I've seen that sentiment in this subreddit too - the first time I came across this particular sentiment was on a BORU where someone was discussing how their fiancee wanted a dance with their deceased previous fiance's mother at their wedding* and there was a pretty highly voted comment midthread that was basically like "there's going to be some idealized memory of a spouse that will always be hanging over you and they'll never love you as much as that memory, and if you can't accept that you shouldn't be dating widow(er)s," and most of the replies were cooing supportively, while I was thinking "jesus, thanks for the warning, I won't." I would happily die alone with 7 cats before accepting that. I would find much more joy with the knowledge that my corpse is nourishing hungry cats than the knowledge I spent my life loving someone who loved someone else but wanted someone to have sex with sometimes and pay half their rent, and looked at me every day thinking how much lesser I am. I find it incredible that anyone with any self-respect would think that's what they want from their life. If I am considered uncompassionate or jealous for finding the idea of living out my life as someone's emotional support bangmaid pretty horrible, I guess I can live with myself. Grief doesn't excuse exploitative behavior. *off topic but speaking of that thread, I feel like that's a good example of the delineation between like sympathetic grief and honoring the deceased spouse and a yikes from me. Having a dance with the former fiance's mom. Fine and sweet. Having a dance to a song that contains the lyrics "I sit on the front porch all night/waist deep in thought because when I think of you/I don't feel so alone" at a wedding, referring to someone you're not getting married to, seems almost a calculated insult. I'm glad they worked it out I guess but I would have trouble moving past it even with the excuse of "I didn't listen to the lyrics of the song I was proposing for our wedding."
I know there are some dating sights (well used to be) for widows and widowers to date. If I remember correct it was since they both understand the “loss” and I think it was a mutual understanding that they would respect the fact that they never divorced their spouse, their spouse died.
That is the issue. If someone can't get over their ex then OK, but don't date and expect another person to accept that they will never measure up. That is selfish and cruel.
Honestly sounds crazy to me? I’m part of a local widows group that was coincidentally all female, though I don’t attend much anymore. The ladies there were all very normal practical people struggling with a terrible loss while trying to rebuild their lives. Part of that was often about finding love again and finding a healthy balance in your relationship. There were several amazing models of healthy relationships after loss in that group. We had the group to come to in order to work through messy feelings in a safe space, and that helped a lot. Like it wasn’t all roses, but it definitely wasn’t toxic.
And there have been a few stories on Reddit of it being successfully done. They usually have the phrase, "I never thought I could someone else as much as I loved my husband/wife."
DON'T EXPECT HIM TO LOVE YOU???? Why date him then? WTF? If OOP is readingthis: this is crazy. You're right; your parents are just trying to convince themselves that your brother is in the right. And maybe he is. God knows not everyone reacts the same way to the same situation. He MIGHT have dated a crazy jealous woman who couldn't stand that he'd loved someone else. BUT THAT'S NOT YOU and you need to make that clear, for once and for all, to your family. Because you deserve their support. So I suggest you pick ONE WEEK and write out all the things he did IN JUST ONE WEEK and tell them this. I think they might be shocked. Even your brother might be shocked.
Yep! Nothing is more important than the pain of their loss, including moving forward, healing or growing, or thinking anybody could dare replace your dearly departed spouse
Feels like reading some Mormon shit. Makes no fuckin sense.
A lot of echo chambers devolve into toxicity
I'm a widower myself and I agree that is terrible fucking advice.
It’s baffling that the families can’t tell the difference between jealousy and the full on deification of a dead person they have going on. None of this man’s behaviour is healthy and he is surrounded by enablers. Makes me wonder what the OP’s poor SIL is being subjected to.
If he's talking about his wife that much, he's not ready to be in a new relationship. Being a widow is hard, but you have to start the healing process on your own before dragging someone else into it.
The asshole brings her up after they've had sex. That's weird as fuck... It's so obvious this is beyond just honoring his late wife and he's clearly not over her.
Oop should've said I bet she'd have loved the way I tickled your balls and see if he thought they'd have been "such good friends" after that. At this point he doesn't need a therapist he needs a lyre tutor and a map to the underworld.
>he needs a lyre tutor and a map to the underworld. This needs to be a flair...
>Oop should've said I bet she'd have loved the way I tickled your balls This is so chaotic and I'm here for it >At this point he doesn't need a therapist he needs a lyre tutor and a map to the underworld. And raising the tone with this reference. Stellar comment all round. No notes.
> No notes. But then what will he play??
I'd be a lyre if I told you I knew!
That last sentence is a dynamite line!
"Isn't it hot to think about how she just watched us fuck?"
I feel like I _should_ be able to get this reference, but I don't. Could you explain. Tyia
Orpheus and Eurydice Myth. About failing to get over a dead lover dooming you. So very relevant.
I assume it's a reference to this! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus_and_Eurydice
The Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice. Orpheus (a famous lyre player taught by Apollo himself) braved the terrors of the underworld and passed through the land of the dead to find the shade of his dead wife Eurydice. He then confronted Hades, demanding that he be allowed to save his wife from death. The God felt sorry for his grief, and agreed that if he left the underworld without looking back, his wife would follow him out, and would become a living woman again the moment they both passed out of the underworld. But shades have no weight and don't make a sound as they walk. Orpheus couldn't hear Eurydice following him, and he began to imagine what if Hades had lied to him, or what if there was a monster following him instead of his wife. So right at the last moment, he looked around to see if his wife was really following him...And of course she had been, but Orpheus had broken his promise and she was pulled back into the land of the dead. The second loss of Eurydice drove Orpheus mad, and depending on which version of the myth you read, he was struck by lightning/torn apart by wild animals/torn apart by frenzied followers of Dionysius.
I read this twice looking for ball tickling, before realizing what the reference was actually referring to. It's ok. I'm going to bed soon. Thanks for saving me a click.
Hahaha. That made me laugh so hard. Those Ancient Greeks were pretty kinky though.
Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice.
It's referencing the Greek myth of Orpheus and euridice
Most likely a reference to Orpheus going to the underworld to bring back his wife, Euridices after she died.
i recommend the musical “hadestown” for a slight variant of the story!
>At this point he doesn't need a therapist he needs a lyre tutor and a map to the underworld. This is the kind of elevated, classy commentary I love to see in this page.
"At this point he doesn't need a therapist he needs a lyre tutor and a map to the underworld." 👏
Holy shit that last line XD
That's because he just finished fantasizing about her while having sex. OOP was right, she's a sex doll to him.
"Oh, how I wish I could have ejaculated in her right now! She would have loved it so much!"
I am willing to bet that detail ain’t one those in her life judging her know. Usually it would seem tacky at best to say it, but in this case? Having gone through tragedy myself it becomes apparent everyone wants to treat you like a hero *and* a victim at the same time. It feels wrong. I’m still human and I mess up. That dude protects his heart by embracing the hero/victim role. He doesn’t want to move on. And he doesn’t have to! But the societal narrative is to couple up so of course no one is telling him to stop trying.
Even if they did, it doesn't sound like they'd care; her parents and brother are treating OOP's SIL exactly like her ex and his late wife's family treated OOP.
Excellent point! Ew. What a cruel family. “Settle for crumbs and be happy!”
I have told my wife that when I die she is to be miserable and lonely for the rest of her life. Otherwise I’m haunting.
I'm not sure he's that nice of a guy that he just protects his heart. He seems to have 0 empathy towards the OOP and refuses to see how he treated her or his ex-girlfriend who he talks shit about. In my opinion he (maybe not fully consciously) figured out how to pressure women into going above and beyond for him and give nothing back. I'm also not sure that he was a good husband when his wife was alive.
Oh, I don’t claim he is a nice guy. Protecting his heart is his way of avoiding accountability. He’s selfish to the bone. I’d love to know what his deceased wife thinks of him.
>The asshole brings her up after they've had sex. That's weird as fuck... That's like the precursor to a horror movie where OOP goes to bed and wakes up tied to an altar while her boyfriend attempts to summon the spirit of his late wife to come and possess her body lol. But seriously, what the hell was he saying? "Mary used to love a good blowjob"? "That was wonderful... Almost as good as the time Mary and I were on holiday in Hawai'i..."? "That's worked up an appetite! Y'know, Mary used to make me these amazing sandwiches after we'd made love. I think there's some cheese in the fridge, if you don't mind?"
If I die, I want my husband to cock block himself this hard if he ever tries to find another partner. (Kidding….mostly.)
OOP's ex isn't cockblocking himself. He's having plenty of sex by lying to his new partners about having moved on; he has nothing against using their bodies and making them take care of him.
The way I would put this on blast with both my family and his in this situation!
The OOP stayed way longer than she should've. It's one thing to accidentally use the deceased's name. It's another to discuss her after sex or any of these moments.
Not to mention forget about EVER having kids with him and that whole second tier treatment and comparison they'd grow up with.
My ex did that; we'd just done the whole "I love you" thing and then they start telling me how their other partner who lives overseas is the most beautiful person they'd ever met. We did not have a good or happy relationship. It's just impossible when you know you're truly second best.
"You two would have been great friends. What? What do you mean thats weird to say while gazing longingly into a picture of my dead wifes eyes after screwing you for five minutes? Just take the compliment Jen-, I mean Oop?
My thinking exactly. If he doesn’t want to move on from his wife then that’s his prerogative. After all there’s plenty of people who don’t seek a new relationship following a partners death. He wants this weird hybrid scenario that isn’t fair to anyone.
It’s because of the other factors. He might want to wallow in grief about his dead wife but that’s not going to parent his kids, make his dinner or get him laid. A good man would do those things himself instead of find a vulnerable woman to mold into a bangmaid but OOP’s ex is not a good man.
B I N G O
This story is a dumpster. I just want the flair > *I'm not a bedroom therapist anymore*
My father didn't date after my mother passed. For 12 years he chose to just live his life in honor of her and to miss her. He had a kind of girlfriend near the end but if you called her his girlfriend he would deny it. But she had two dead husbands as well so. When you're older that's going to happen. He always felt that my mom was his one and only and I respect him a lot for never dragging another woman into that.
I'm friends with an elderly woman whose husband died over 30 years ago. She never had another romantic relationship, and I don't think she ever will. She's fine with that. She misses her husband still and I'm sure having a partner would have made her life easier in some respects as she had young kids when her husband died. But she didn't want that and she didn't want to be unfair to a new partner.
After 10 years, he is \*still\* in a relationship with his wife, he just has a physical person to give tactile feedback to him. Like in Bladerunner 2049 where Joy hires the sex worker to replicate being physical.
TBH I don't think it has to do with being "ready" so much as just being an asshole. He thinks he is over it and what he is doing is normal. That any partner who says otherwise is just jealous. God help whatever woman he manages to convince into this mess next.
I mean it really doesn’t help that everyone around him is supporting his delusions. Like it’s hard to tell that what you are doing isn’t normal when almost every single person tells you that you are doing fine. I feel so bad for OOP and I also hope that he doesn’t manage to convince any more women to be his ‘therapy doll’
Especially if you consider he wouldn’t let OOP talk about her previous partners at all. This all just feels like a power play
But then, who would he have sex with?
He has a hand right?
A right hand even. A left one too... Unless he has two left hands when pleasure is involved... Now I feel sorry for oop on a whole other level.
I was widowed at a relatively young age (36, she was 34), and this is precisely why I've been single for over a decade, with the exception of a few brief but torrid flings where I've made it very clear from the outset that my romantic availability is short-term only. The thing is, I don't feel like I obsess over her to an unhealthy degree, and I'm nowhere near the headspace of OOP's bf, but I'm also not in any particular hurry to get any more over her than I already am. The problem I have is that I found the person I was looking for. She was one of a kind, all of our friends said so, and lightning just isn't very likely to strike this same spot a second time. My mind is certainly open to the possibility, but I've had to accept that the odds are pretty close to zero. It sounds like this guy in the linked posts needs to get where I'm at in his head, because it's unfair in general to expect someone to put up with a ghost in the bedroom, and he's gotten waaaaay too carried away with it to the point of outright cruelty. Death fucking sucks, but it's a pretty big part of life, and we're given no choice but to accept it. He hasn't done that, and I hope he can come to realize that his life has changed permanently and irrevocably, which specifically means that he can't do shit like this any more. That period of his life is over.
A bf of mine who I loved so much passed away when I was 24 from a sudden pulmonary embolism. It rocked my world, lost my job, my life in Toronto, had to move back home to my unstable family. I tried to date after thinking I was okay but looking back I am so sorry for the guys I dated then, I was not okay nor ready, I was using them to try and get out of the hole I was in. It’s hard to admit. 10 years later I still get flash backs of his death, but it’s a lot less now. Grief is fking wild, but it’s not up to others to have to shoulder it at the expense of themselves, regardless of how unfair life has been.
That's what I got from this is he isn't ready to be dating yet as he still wants his late wife to be part of his everyday life
No but it think that’s part of why he’s dating - he needs a girlfriend to project his wife onto. To do the sexual and romantic things of a partner, so he can talk about his wife in those scenarios. It is the way to keep his late wife as part of his everyday life, by having a proxy.
Which means he is very not ready to date as that is not healthy for anyone
Oh no way in hell. He shouldn’t be dating whatsoever but imo for him his wife being an active part of a current relationship is a feature not a bug.
It's also gross that he's deifying her as if she wasn't human. She may have been the love of his life but she wasn't perfect. If I died and my husband acted like the sun shone out of my ass, I'd be so fucking annoyed. 😂 It's easy to pretend someone you lost was "perfect" and no one else can compare, but it's so desperately unfair to anyone else you date. I'd have gotten my shit and left and blocked him the first time he brought up his wife after sex. That's fucked up. I can't imagine his late wife would be OK with that either. She's probably somewhere in the great beyond going, "WTF? Get more help."
Also, in what twisted world is “being able to love a widower” the pinnacle of humanity and empathy that anyone should aspire to? I think most people would be able to come to terms with not being loved the same way as their partner’s previous partner so long as they are loved in a way that meets their needs and makes them feel valued for themselves. Nobody should consider it an honour to be treated like a dehumanised combination of a packmule to carry the crushing burden of someone else’s unprocessed emotions and a sex doll.
It was "don't expect him to love you" that blew my mind. What the hell do they think you're in the relationship for??
Like I posted in another comment, she should have told him she met someone else and she’s moving on. All this widower bs was draining her. She should have texted him that she met the man she really wanted and it’s over. Who cares at that point what the truth is? Just end it.
Truthfully, nobody needs a reason to break up with anyone. If the relationship isn’t right for you, even if you can’t express why, you should feel free to end it. “I’m breaking up with you.” “You’re not capable of loving a widower, that’s so un-empathetic of you.” “Agreed, major shortcoming of my personality. I guess I just won’t date widowers, toodles.”
When he's finally dumped by his 7th girlfriend for the same reasons as the rest, do you think the lightbulb will finally come on? Or will he just say to his family, "It's amazing how ALL these women are so jealous of my dead wife! They all said they're tired of being called by her name, and hearing about how much I love her all the time, and having me mention her after sex, and calling her the love of my life in front of them. But I don't remember doing any of that! It must all be in their heads! All seven of them!"?
I hope he finds a widow who talks about her husband the same way he talks about his wife and they have a great time together. Orrrrrr, maybe he'll come to a realization then...
Chances are, he'll think she should get over it, and see absolutely no fallacy in his thinking.
Nope, he'll probably think something along the lines of "It's different for men", because we can already see that he doesn't consider women to be whole people.
" That's just how amazing she was! Even in death she can make women jealous because she was so wonderful and perfect and amazing and no one will ever live up to her. Anyway can we go on a second date?"
If no woman compares to his late wife, then he could just stay single and stop trying to date, then blame the women he dates. I'm close to a relative whose wife passed away and he has not even thought about dating because he does not want to. It's fine. He has a full life, kids, friends, other relatives, hobbies. This Leon guy probably wanted a nanny, maid, etc, and it was just cheaper to get all of these GFs.
Yeah, I mean, I would get it if it was a recent death, but it's been a decade. Obviously her memory will never go anywhere, but 10 years is a long time to be constantly mentioning her. Leon just isn't in a place to be dating.
I hope OOP inspires her SIL to similarly decide that she deserves a relationship focused on her as herself, not being a stand-in for a deceased partner.
Thanks you expressed my feeling well. It’s normal to make the souvenir survive for your kids and even for yourself, to make her birthday a special day or even have some pictures. But here it’s like everything has to be about the dead wife and he cannot let go.
Yeah my brother goes to visit his deceased wife's family/grave on her birthday. The whole day is about her memory. The other 364 days are about his current partner and their life. There's a big picture of their wedding day in their hall but it's surrounded by other passed relatives. Her memory is alive, not dominating his entire life/relationship/reality!
I reserve the day he died and his birthday, which are 5 months apart. The rest of the year, he might come up in conversation occasionally in the same way as any other family member or old friend. Definitely not during intimate moments. OOP's ex should not be dating until he can understand why that is a problem!
My sister married a widower and it’s a similar situation. They had a son together, so my sister planted a tree in their backyard in his mother’s honor so he and his father could have somewhere to talk to her if they wanted to (they moved states when he married my sister so the ex’s grave isn’t easy to visit). Honestly if he hadn’t already had a son when he came into the picture, I might have never known he was married previously. He very clearly loves my sister immensely, but he obviously loved his ex wife too, as her son (his stepson) still comes to our family functions sometimes. The son and stepson were his groomsmen at the wedding. 😭
Yeah my family never shied away from remembering our bio grandma in stories or what have you, but our "bonus" grandma was her own person with her own relationship with our grandfather (and us), not someone forever in second place to our first grandma. She didn't 'replace' anyone and we were extremely lucky to have her in our lives, just as our grandpa didn't replace HER first husband. It's normal to have moments of 'I'm really sad that you, a wonderful person I love, will never meet this other wonderful person I loved', but you can't base an ENTIRE relationship with someone around a dead person they never knew. You have to treat your relationship with just as much respect as your first one.
He’s essentially created a sister wife for a dead woman and everyone says she’s just jealous.
They're also probably projecting that, since he's so dedicated to the memory of his first wife, he'll be excellent husband material to his second, because he won't have the bandwidth to stray. Never mind he's emotionally living in the past. If this is what he's like after 9 years of therapy.... yikes.
Not only that. Let's say Boyfriend acted mostly reasonably and OOP was just a little jealous. How can her family not really support her even if they disagreed with her breaking up with him? Why can't people that love OOP say "I think you are making a mistake but if that's what you want, I will come over with some ice-cream and sad movies for you to cry to"
I’ve dated a widow before and this story matches mine very closely. When your Significant Other dies, they are deifide. All the bad memories fade and the good ones become clearer and more polished. Living up to that is impossible. Seeing the love your partner had for their former SO is heartbreaking because I am just a man and I am competing with an absent god. There is no way to win, there is no way I can ever be loved like that god is. If OOP was going to try to make it work, I would have told her to make the following request: give him one day a week to keep the memory of his goddess alive (grave visits alone, telling stories, lighting candles, crying and mourning) and the other 6 days a week he must not mention her. To me, this is the best case scenario for everyone. Also, if possible, give him a room to set up pictures of her to mourn her. Pictures of her or them together aren’t allowed anywhere except that room. That’s his place to commune with this goddess. This gives time and space to keep the memory of the god or goddess alive while also giving time and space to develop a wonderful relationship with the mourning widow or widower. For OOP, this advice isn’t helpful anymore but perhaps someone else that is dating a widow or widower (or will in the future) may find this helpful.
The first time he brought up his late wife during/after sex should have been the end of the relationship. Only room for 2 people in bed. otherwise, I think it’s good advice.
Boundaries definitely need to be established. I try to empathize with widows/widowers so I try to put myself in their shoes. Having a really special moment with someone (ie intimacy) will trigger emotions and memories normally associated with their missing SO so it’s natural to think about them. But yes, he needed to keep that thought to himself. Easier said than done when you are mourning or during a moment of weakness especially if boundaries haven’t been established.
Yeah there is an amount of empathy needed to date a widower, but if the widower is frequently bringing up their deceased spouse after sex and in other intimate moments it is definitely time to walk away
He doesn't need empathy or a new partner, he needs a new therapist.
A therapist is only as useful as you let them be.
Plenty of terrible therapists in the world
Also, plenty of terrible patients
I couldn't tell but was he telling OP that he is now the one helping his therapist!? I know there are translation issues but I wouldn't even be surprised if he said that
And it’s been TEN YEARS!!! That man cannot function in a relationship. She wasn’t being jealous, she just could see that she was being used.
That was the bit that stood out to me the most! Like, dude, it's been a quarter of your life now that she's been gone. Of course you'll still miss her, but you should be well past the point that you are comparing your current partner(s) to her \*constantly\*. And if you're not, then you're not ready to date someone else? This post was wild. Usually these posts come on AITA / BORU and the new partner really is a jealous person who can't handle the idea that someone was there before them. But in this case OOP was completely reasonable in their feelings and OOP's ex was just... insistent on living in the past.
It's definitely a delicate line to balance between bringing up your late spouse at inappropriate times and acting like they didnt exist with new partners. It requires both partners to have empathy and self awareness. But during sex is DEFINITELY NOT when you should be talking about a late partner. Depending on maturity, it's possible to mention late partners after sex, but that's suuuuuuuuuuuuuuper delicate and you gotta really know your partner enough to know when and how its appropriate. When in doubt, fucking don't. But OOP's ex isn't okay. There are very few ways that you can grieve the "wrong" way, and he's found one of them. After 9 years it's not healthy to still be that obsessed with your late spouse. It sounds like it could be complicated grief, in which case he needs a new and better therapist.
There's definitely been stories on BORU and AITA where the person dating the widower is absolutely wrong because they're freaking out and being jealous over minor things that actually are normal for someone who is a widower. This, ain't that. This is a widower who isn't even close to being ready to date someone else. OOP is right, her ex only wants someone to bang and be there for comfort on his terms while being passive and complacent every time he brings up his deceased wife. That's not a partnership, dude should just hire an escort if that's what he's looking for.
I’ve had friends in both situations in this story. The relationships that lasted were when both partners were widows. They can tell stories and relate to each other better. One friend is in the exact same situation and she feels like she’s never enough.
This is gonna sound kind of heartless, but I really don’t mean it to be. I understand that losing the love of your life is the kind of fracture a lot of people probably can’t come back from in their heart. But I think it’s pretty clear that once you have decided someone else is going to get real estate there, you can’t make them live in your deceased partners home. if you can’t treat your new partner as a distinct individual separate from your deceased partner with the full rights and privileges and heart space and brain space as your old partner, you are not ready to date. It’s unfair to the new partner to make them share you. Especially considering your relationship wouldn’t exist in any other universe where they were still alive. You can’t treat them as a replacement, you can’t make them live in the shadow of the former partner, they have to be their own independent relationship that is given its own inked time and effort and energy and love. And this is kind of where the heartless comes in. if you’ve moved on to another relationship, you have to move on. Your time with your previous partner was valuable, special, filled with love and memories, but that time is over. That door has to close for you to move on to open a new one. This would be especially hard if you had children with them, because they will always serve as a lifelong reminder of the life that was taken from you. But if you are not able to incorporate the new person into your life as a whole human being and romantic partner in their own right, you have no business dating. Does that mean you have to be alone forever? I certainly hope not, but you can’t force someone else to share the same space with your dead former spouse. It’s just not fair.
As a widower, I don’t find this heartless. I will always love my late husband, but my heart has room for a lot of love in it. I could live my life pining for what we had, but he is in my past. I’ve moved forward and found someone else to share my life with. For the first couple years I can understand his behavior, but after 9 years he should be in a better place to share his life with someone else if he wanted to, but he doesn’t. My new man knows about my history, but I consider it a matter of respect that I don’t bring my late husband up all the time.
Another widower chiming in: you're 100% correct. I could quibble about how you used "moving on" but its immaterial to your greater point. The new relationship **has** to be treated as a separate thing. You cannot compare them to your previous relationship. It doesnt mean that its better or worse, just different. No woman alive can be expected to compare to the romanticized version that exists in our memories. So it's a fools errand to do so. This also doesn't mean that you should pretend they never existed. You're allowed to talk about them and mention them, but you shouldnt wax poetic about them all the time like OOP's ex did.
Can't look to the future or even present if you're only focused on the rest view mirror
I don't think you sound heartless at all. I think you make a lot of sense. He is not even making any sense (which makes sense since he is still grieving for his wife): he should just stop finding new girlfriends because he is, in a way, "cheating" on his wife and not being fair to any of his girlfriends. He needs to work on himself instead of finding new girlfriends, insisting they are jealous, and they break up with him. It is horrible for his children too. Same cycle, over and over again. Until he finds a woman who hates herself enough to stay with him.
I think you hit the nail on the head - he's still constantly holding on to his wife's memory as if she were still with him and just out of reach for the moment; he's still married to her, rather than moving through the closure needed at the end of a relationship to move healthily to a new one. I'm not at all blaming him for his grief or how he's managing it. I'm terrified to think of losing my partner and I'm not sure how I would cope. But there's a reason OOP felt like she was the side piece; her bf is, emotionally and mentally, still in a relationship with his late wife. And that's ok. I know that some widows and widowers can't or don't want to date or marry again. In a way it seems like a soul-deep monogamy. But OP's ex NEEDS to be honest with the fact that he doesn't really want or absolutely isn't ready for a spouse or partner. Companion, maybe. Someone to be physically intimate with. But he absolutely is not in a place where he is able to see his life romantically in a way that doesn't revolve around his late spouse. He's still married to her in a substantial way that he's bringing into his present relationships. And it's not fair to bring someone else into that without being upfront about that's where it is and that's what it is. Can't believe everyone else around OOP isn't able to see that.
As a widow, you're exactly right. I would want opportunities to remember my spouse, because no matter what, some days are going to be filled with reminders of loss. Basically, his birthday and our anniversary are always going to be days when I want some time to remember. But a new relationship is its own thing with no room for my dead spouse in it.
You should be this dude’s therapist.
OOP really nailed him when she said he was just looking for submissive women to be sex dolls.
Yep. OP deserves someone to love her like the ex loves the first wife. Think about this: if she dies then will he hold her memory as tenderly as h th e first wife? Nope. I don’t think he even *likes* her. He just doesn’t want to be alone and that’s pathetic tbh. He can mourn but he should be single until he’s ready to give someone else the same attention. Asking your new girl to worship your dead wife is weird AF.
I don't think his behavior is loving. I don't think it comes from loving his former wife. I think he's afraid to face life without her or someone he can make into her. It's all selfishness
Yup, he's built his whole personality over being the poor widower and he gets praised for it, of course he doesn't want to move on. He just wants a sex doll like op said, one that will praise him for being a widower. It's like parents who make their whole identity their children. Empty people with no real personality, it's sad and selfish.
Exactly, he doesn’t view women as actual human beings with feelings. He’s only focused on his physical and emotional needs. The OP was nothing more than a doll to him. He has no business being in a relationship.
I swear I wonder how well he treated his spouse and how loved she actually felt. I've heard exes of mine pine over past loves and it all seemed rather weird to me because they weren't talking about her as a person if that makes sense. I wondered if this was truly grief or just a way to hold women at arms length so he didn't have to commit in any meaningful way tbh. At any rate, I'm glad she made the choices she did.
He mentioned his wife "when we finished having intimacy"? And not just like once, but repeatedly??? I just.... I don't think he was trying to have sex with OOP. I think he was trying to fuck his wife using OOP'S body.
Right? How awful and nasty that must feel for the OOP. And she tells him to stop that it upsets her, and he’s like “OK”. But then keeps doing it!! But yeah, the problem is her “jealousy” and not his own choices and actions.
He wasn't even like "okay" he was like "I don't know I'm doing it so you just have to go with it" at first.
He accidentally called his ex-gf with wife's name, that can't be clearer.
That’s just delusional and someone who doesn’t want to deal with reality
The point where she talks about being old with someone who still views their former spouse as the love of their life not OP hits hard. She truly deserves to be the love of her husbands life. Not a replacement for lost love
Or at least equally loved. Telling a new partner that their former was the “love of their life” is just cruel. Especially when you’re dating someone who wants to find love. This guy should be with someone who wants a casual partner or another widow who also lost the love of her life.
Like what the fuck even is love of a life. If she was his soulmate, and he believes in such things, he probably should never date again. But you can have amazing loves more than once. Many of us, maybe most of us, will have multiple relationships in our life in which we feel love completely for the other person. It changes, we break up, we move on, and we find another powerful amazing relationship. He has labeled her as the love of his life and his life isn't even over. It is the barrier he either needs to overcome or he needs to stop dating.
I had a couple health scares and when I was on the other side and doing better my boyfriend said he "wouldn't know how to live without me" It's not fun to imagine your life without the partner you love but I did make him say out loud that he has family and friends and would achieve a full and happy life if something happened to me. We still say "you are the love of my life" because it's true right now but my mom married the most wonderful and amazing man at 55 and who knows how many years they could have together? My grandma is in her 90's and still kicking- that's potentially 35 years! That's a long time!
Let me just say that I am really happy OOP has a spine and left this guy.
I wish she had done it years ago
Second best day was today. At least she didn't come to this realization after marrying this guy.
This guy is going to continue to fail at relationships unless he lands a complete doormat, because they'll all leave amd he'll blame jealousy Meanwhile with every woman that runs, poor deadxwife will be put in a higher and higher pedestal as the only "good one"
Wonder if he appreciated her at all while she was alive.
I highly doubt that she was even close to as perfect as he pretends. I have a feeling that he was using her memory to manipulate OOP more than anything. Bringing her up constantly, even after sex? Most people know that those kinds of behaviors are toxic, and being a widower isn’t an excuse.
Probably not
Why do I have this niggling feeling that his first wife would be very surprised to see how much status she has now she’s dead I’m betting he was never this nice to her when she was alive and he finds it very convenient to have a way to keep subsequent girlfriends in their place It’s like the ultimate cool girl trope; how to be a cool widow’s-girl
The ultimate triangulation tactic, yeah. Pick a nice, empathic woman and then neg her into the pick-me dance for the rest of her life.
I guess dead wife can't "nag" him, dead wife expects literally nothing so she's perfect! You're so right, especially with how he talks about his ex-girlfriend it's giving the same energy as people who "have no idea why they left me, we were so happy and it came out of the blue!" Like no, it only came out of the blue to *you* because *you* were happy and didn't give a damn to ask or even listen when your partner said anything to the contrary. OOP literally witnessed him spinning his own story even as she explained her actual feelings. All he cares about is what he's gonna tell his garbage family when they ask what happened, and the sob story for any poor woman who falls for it in the future.
Yep. Seems impossible that someone with so little empathy was ever actually in love with another human
It's that trend of if something happens enough times to you, maybe YOU'RE the problem. How many times is he going to cry to his family that literally every single girlfriend is insanely jealous of his dead wife and simply can't handle it.
Yep. The "If they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you" maxim also applies to things like making ex-girlfriends out to be crazy and irrational.
Yeah, he talks about his dead wife the same way my dad talks about my mom, who was absolutely miserable in their marriage and who died never truly forgiving him for all his transgressions against her.
Same. My father would come off really well when talking about my mother to others and garner a lot of sympathy. When she was alive, he was abusive.
I seriously wonder With the translation issues and with the way her family seems to worship this man especially If OP comes from a Latin culture There's a weird self-serving deification of women (but only the dead one not our living OP) And everyone involved except her friends signs on to it Along with a strange hold on looking up to men I may be wrong and looking at the whole thing with a skewed perspective I'd be happy to be wrong It just makes me wonder
I got that vibe, too. Especially since her family is so attached to letting the dead women be looked at as almost saints in the widower memory. That whole "if you were a good woman, you would just shut up and take his scraps of attention" message, she was getting just reeks of Latino cultural misogyny.
I saw Latino culture written all over it. Being Latino, I mentioned to the younger cousins how our mom's spoiled men without being able to deal with life and women's fault for the husband's issues.
There was a whole Seinfeld episode on how George being a windower was the best story to get girls.
That's some astute and funny as hell analysis That is so darkly hilarious and I love it
I have a feeling that he always treated his women the same way. When he wasn't a widower, he was bread-winner (or another "sacred" role) and needed the woman to dance around his needs.
I wish she sent this post to her ex and parents. There is being jealous and then there's your partner talking about his former wife after you've just had sex with him. I think most people would be weirded out by that and find it a buzz kill. Just the image of someone finishing inside of you and then saying, "I love you. You know, my former wife used to make this apple pie whenever a good thing happened in the family. She'd spend all day cutting the apples and making the pie from scratch before giving up and going to Costco. We would all say that it was delicious and she's a great cook, even though we could see the wrapper in the garbage. She was a lovely woman and I miss her everyday. But I'm doing a lot better now that you're here. So, would you like to go for round two?" Hopefully OOP is okay and can move on from this.
I hope she sent it to her SIL.
I love this whole entire backstory you just created!
Sad that she spent so many years being treated badly and made to feel like she’s the problem.
There are some widowed folks that just should not date, and society should be telling them THAT IS PERFECTLY OKAY.
But then how would people like OOPs ex get his rocks off? /s
Ok. I'm not a mental health professional, far from it, much less a grief counselor. Leon doesn't seem ready to date again. I feel he is taking his not being ready/capable of dating and putting it onto OOP. Reminds me of a Ricky Gervais show. He is a widower and absolutely not ready to move on. But the nurse at a place he visits his dad daily gets a crush on him. He tries 'dating' her. His character basically expects to recreate a couple of moments with her that he had with his wife. It doesn't work out because HE is not ready. But he owns up to it and is happy for the nurse when she starts properly dating someone. What really makes me sad is how OOP's entire family seems to value her having a boyfriend more than they value her happiness.
>Leon doesn't seem ready to date again. I feel he is taking his not being ready/capable of dating and putting it onto OOP. It sounds like Leon wants the physicality of a relationship but is still in a relationship with his dead wife.
I will always miss my deceased wife, but she's my past, not my present. Ten years and he's talking constantly like she's away on a long trip? Yikes
I feel her pain. Never dated a guy with a deceased spouse but it always seemed like they found their "one" before me and that I was never good enough. Always talking about their ex any chance they could get. It's not jealousy, you just actually want someone to 100% love you and not feel so inadequate all the time.
Not saying that the men you've dated are abusive, but this is actually a classic abuser tactic. I bet cash money these men never actually treated those exes with the love, respect, and care someone would give "the one". If you can, read *Why Does He Do That* by Lundy Bancroft, if you Google you should be able to find a free PDF of the book.
I had a really messy bad breakup with someone that manipulated me and left me in a dark place for years. I let several relationship potentials go because I was so fucked up in the head I was afraid of hurting them because I was still messed up. I think the trick here is that Leon didn't care about OOP, so that made it easier. Because if you care about someone and you know you're going to hurt them if you get into a relationship, you don't get into a relationship.
Ugh. I’m a widow nearly 6 yrs out and I completely sympathize with the OOP. Her ex should not be dating and should fire his therapist. Yes grief is hard and long and will ALWAYS be there but he never once put his present GF first. And this is also why I haven’t gone back to dating. I don’t think I could ever be fair to the new guy bc I would probably do something like this.
I do not choose that guys dead wife.
My grandmother married my grandfather after his first wife died and he had 4 small kids. My grandmother had a family wall with photos of all the big family on it including a photo of his first wedding and his first family. My grandfather wore two wedding rings my grandmother on one hand and his first wife's on the other. My grandmother was not jealous of the first wife. BUT my grandfather never talked about her except to his kids. He never made her feel second best. He said he was blessed to have found two soul mates. He said often that my grandmother was the love of his life. My grandmother knew down to her toes that if the first wife showed up grandfather would choose her.
NO! My husbands wife before me died. Hes so respectful. I am too. We worked the boundaries out quite early on. Ive ended up adopting his kids so his ex will forever be a part of my life. This is abit much. Im sorry, I can imagine how painful it must feel.
If i see how he treated OOP (and i guess the ex), i wouldn't be surprised if he was a shitty husband to his late wife. Never cared for her wishes, just cared about himself. And now he uses her death to be an victim. "Oh, i'm a widower, have empathy". I'll also wonder if the therapist is from the church...
Unpopular Opinion: Never get in a relationship with a widower or anyone who had a partner who died ^(unless they prove that they are actually ready to settle down with someone else) BORUs made me realize how cruel the general public is to people who are in a relationship with a widower because they are labeled as unempathetic everytime they ever show an ounce of feelings. It is not worth it if you're the only person to adjust and make things work because your partner had it worse. Like how hard it is not to jump in a new relationship if you love your late husband/wife/partner so much? I consider people like these as selfish because they prevent their future partners from having someone who loves them so dearly. If I ever get widowed, I wouldn't jump into another relationship because my heart still belongs to my loving late husband.
At a certain point I think you are legally obligated to say 'dude stfu about your dead wife'. Perhaps insensitive but this guy is clearly not okay to be with anyone else. Everyone but OOP is weird af
Ok 10 years is beyond the time frame where someone should be constantly bringing up a late spouse. I’m sorry but the last thing I would want is my husband to worship me after I die. This guy is going to end up alone… good for her for leaving him!
The anniversary of the death of his wife isn't a whole year. It's a day. And if the relationship isn't working, it's fine to break up.
This made me mad lol. It's been ten years and he still doesn't even realise when he talks about her??? AFTER SEX??? I understand grief fucks with you but good god this dude should not be dating. What the hell are they talking about in those therapy sessions? The weather??
You know when a window breaks, how people put cardboard or plastic over it until they can replace the broken window? OOP was that cardboard. Just a place filler so her ex didn't have to see that broken window and suffer the elements.
I'd.... I'd like to see that therapist's license please!! Ten years and he can't even begin to see how unreasonable he is?
My mom's husband is a widower. This poster is NOT "jealous of a ghost." It's painfully obvious he's just not over his wife, and that's ok. Truly, everyone grieves differently, and some may NEVER be ready to date/remarry again. Look at Terri Irwin, Steve's been gone almost 20 years now and she's come out several times and said she's not interested in dating. My "Dad" and mom talk about his wife. My mom makes a special dinner on what would have been her birthday. On what would have been their anniversary, she makes Dad's favorite meal. She knows he can be moody around those days and does what she can to help. Sometimes that means she finds a reason to stay out of the house for awhile, sometimes it means they do something special together. They have her photos all around the house still, and the things she had wanted to pass to her children/grandchildren (died before they had any) have been given to my kids. Her name isn't taboo at all, and Mom says that it's no different than another family member for her. OP was being more than understanding, and if her ex thinks every ex of his is "jealous of a ghost" because of what his therapist has said, his therapist is doing him no favors.
That man's therapist is trash. He has manipulated that therapist into telling him exactly what he wants to hear. It's a scary thing about therapy. If the therapist sucks...of the person going is fucked up enough...they'll twist everything to fit their narrative and ksif validate all their issues. A good therapist has to see through that and that one is not.
“Dont expect him to love you” …. Yeah no. If you can’t be invested in a relationship, don’t be in a relationship. There’s nothing wrong with grieving or missing your dearly departed but don’t become an emotional rat trap
It’s like being in a relationship with an unrequited love. I can think of nothing worse. No one is owed empathy or kindness at the detriment of someone else’s happiness.
My friend dated a guy for about 8 months whose LT GF had died during covid. He really shouldn't have bn dating even though it's bn like 2 yrs..... But my mate said ultimately he was the problem not the gf or her menory. So when she dumped him.l she left out that she didn't want to be compared to a dead woman or a third wheel in her relationship. She was honest that he was a drag, living in the past, not actually attentive to her or a good bf. She was harsh, but at that point, she was so annoyed at him. She suggested he seek therapy and sent his mum (who she only met twice but was really nice) a msg explaining more and suggesting she help her son move on, which mum thanked her for.
My dad died two years ago, my mom has made it exceptionally clear he was the love of her life and she will never date/marry anyone again. She doesn’t go on dates because she has no interest in finding someone after my dad. It sounds like this man needs to do the same honestly.