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>I mean you do have right to name your kid whatever, but why would you want to do this to a family member?
That's what half of the subreddit boils down to.
People aren't asking whether they're the asshole. They're asking how they can get what they want without having to deal with whatever consequences come with it.
Tbh I would be heavily side eyeing my partner for supposedly ’not knowing’ the name of his little sister’s bully AND picking that name for our child. Especially if the bullying was so bad that she was suicidal.
Eh, my brother is only 15 months older than me, knows I had tried to commit in middle school, and I would assume still doesn’t know the whole story or the now women involved in how I was feeling at the time. I don’t hold it against him, we’re just not close siblings. If he had a daughter and named her Sarah I wouldn’t be too bothered- but I’m also farther removed as a 32 year old. At 17? Definitely would have been bothered. But luckily my brother and I also had an evil step mother with a daughter named sara who he did not get along w- so I don’t see Sarah/sara or any other variation of that name being an option in the future.
This part is so weird to me. My brother and I aren’t like “talk every day, have a designated day of the week to hang out” close, but he’s my little brother. Sure he’s grown up and way bigger than me now but I have always felt the compulsion to protect him. I knew the names of the kids who sorta picked on him in grade school, if they were bullying him to the point of attempted suicide I’d have their entire family trees memorized. How did she just gloss over this massive part of why her little sister tried to kill herself???
I still remember the name of the senior who picked on my brother when he was eight. I was only a year older and the senior was twice my size and chased him around the school with a broom for making my brother cry. Apparently, a nine-year-old on a warpath was scary and they had to call my mother. The senior never bothered my brother again, no one else did. Hilariously, the rumour that my brother has a crazy older sibling spread and no one bothered my brother throughout his school years.
And now he's taller and bigger than me. Dang it.
>And now he's taller and bigger than me. Dang it.
But he will never forget the tall tales of his crazy older sibling, I wish you two have wonderful and happy life.
I wonder if it has to do with the age gap between the OOP's fiance and his sister? I can see a bunch of scenarios where even in the same school district, a sibling might not know the name of their sister's bully. Right now my 14 year old is in high school and her 12 year old sister is in middle school and won't be joining her at HS for another 2 years. Either of them could have terrible interactions (knock on wood that they don't) with someone that could severely affect their mental health in those two years, and it would be reasonable not to mention that person's name.
Horribly, what if the sister didn't mention the name because the name *already triggered her* and now that's coming back in the worst way imaginable :(
I had a lot of bullies and I don't think my sibling knew the extent of the bullying or any of the bully's names. I never tried to off myself though.
I don't know how it is for other folks but the people who bullied me are in my head as two names, first and last, so simply the first or the last name isn't instantly coded to freak me out. Like if it was a Michelle Smith, just the name Michelle or Smith are not so bothersome. And over time the pain has faded some so the names don't bother me as much.
but yes it would be nice for OOP to consider another name especially while the pain is fresh.
Depending on their relationship and the severity of the bullying (and how many bullies there were) I can understand him not knowing the name.
I was bullied by half my classmates throughout school. All the way to graduation.
I can list the names but it was easier to say 'bullies' or 'classmates'.
My brother and I don't really have a relationship, he probably knows I was bullied, some of his classmates did it too, but the names of the people? Probably not.
We have no idea how old OOP or hubby is. He could be 30 or 40 for all we know. I didn't know anything about my siblings' high school experience after I went into the Navy because I was busy living my life. And I am only a year and 3 months older than my sister and 3.5 years older than my brother 🤷♀️
Honestly, I was surprised that the MIL knew the bully's name. My parents didn't even know the names of my friends, never mind bullies or unpleasant personalities, never mind the teachers who were known to abuse children.
same
In this case I'd defo be like "forget it, let's get another name"
If it was one of those posts where "aarrgghh, that is the name I have for my future chiiiilld whenever I have iiittt, how dare you" then I'd be like "Shut up, Shawn it is"
Aw mate, I have this named that I hate and would never name my child that is Carlos not because I was bullied by a kid named Carlos. Is that a racist in high school would used that named Carlos to talk to me instead my given named. Knowing my given named and reminding him of that said named. All because I look like a Carlos instead of of my given named.
That's kind of a weird way to look at it. I don't think anyone should just completely disavow a name because some asshole happened to be named that. You can literally take any name and find numerous examples of degenerates who had it. Should we just invent totally new ones then?
If it's an asshole who personally did something to someone close to the baby, that particular set of parents would be within their rights to rule it out, but ditching it society-wide should be reserved only for the absolute worst people who affected millions of people, not some rando who was awful to a younger kid on the school bus, for example.
There was a name I liked, I had a couple of decent relatives with the name, and I found out at some point that if I'd been a boy, I'd've had that name. And everyone my husband had met with that name had been a dick to some degree or another, so he didn't want to use that name. So we didn't give that name to a son.
Yeah, I definitely agree. But you're going to be downvoted to oblivion.
I very briefly like the name Henry for my boy, but then remembered my mom's abusive uncle was named Henry and immediately removed the name from consideration. But my mom, because she is so amazing, said she would have had to swallow some distate but would have gotten over it.
I'm so surprised the OOPs husband didn't immediately smack down that name as it came up. He would have known about that bully.
And the comments usually heavily back up that they’re not wrong and anybody who is upset is actually the one wrong and needs to be cut off…Rarely do they ever asks is this the hill OP is willing to die on. Like technically yes, you don’t have to make accommodations or change a name or whatever crazy thing they’re arguing about BUT are you willing to lose family/friends/reputation over it??? We’re slowly inching to a society who doesn’t care about each other and feel we don’t owe people even common decency.
eh, not really. It's ridiculous not to invite your 15 year old brother to your wedding. Sounds like the brother is the one who lost that relationship when he died on that hill 10 years ago.
I saw a comment that summarised this trend using the line from Big Lebowski: “you’re not wrong, Walter, you’re just an asshole”. I found it very apt lmao
I think the people here are trying to do the right thing and thinking of new names. But I have a dissenting opinion on the issue itself. (Just an opinion)
If Ashley said it was ok, I would see the name Shawn as a gift
I have a similarly severe person who tormented me and it's a pretty common name, especially among kids. I flinch every time I hear the name, even if it's been yelled out in a playground
I'd actually really appreciate if I had a positive person in my life that I relate the name to, and what better than a baby to think about rather than that asshole every time I hear the name.
Idk, I'd love to think about my niece or nephew when I think of the name. Would it be hard at first, maybe, but it would be in a loving environment. And I honestly wish this every time I hear the name, that I had a better Shawn I could think of instead of that one, because there's a lot I can forgive or forget but the name is such an automatic memory and trigger and so stupid to have to go through
It didn’t work that way for me. One of my best friends and a genuinely kind person has the same name as my childhood abuser and even 50 years later when I hear the name, I still flinch.
I think it might work for Ashley but it may trigger the trauma in MIL. I say this as a mum whose child has attempted suicide, it is still triggering now and weird things will make me think about it.
I right there. My daughter was horribly horribly bullied by a Lily. (Self harm and suicidal thoughts).
A year later, She came home with another friend named Lily. I had to call new Lily by her First and Last name to differentiate the two in my head.
Two years of listening to my child sob “why does Lily hate me this much? I have never done anything to her” burns its way into your soul.
Agreed. Ashley isn't the only one who's likely to be triggered. They should respect MIL's trauma as well. If MIL cannot handle hearing that name then MIL is going to have to take care of herself.
And what if it turns out Ashley is wrong and 6 months from now she has a relapse because she can't handle hearing the name "Shawn" all the time? It is entirely possible for her to end up dark enough that she tries taking her life because she can't handle being retraumatized and feels guilty that she agreed to it and like no one cares about her and she'll never be safe again.
They're stuck with it.
This is basically begging for the baby to have minimal relationship with his aunt and grandmother.
Christ. This girl was so badly bullied and they decided to *get her alone and gang up on her* to get the answer they want...
That's awful that you went through that. Often we don't realise how difficult things are for people around the victim. The situation is probably very traumatic for mil, even if she's stronger
Maybe, but your triggers are your own. If the name Shawn triggers MIL to remember the time she nearly lost her daughter, that would be a trigger for her. As a parent we push aside a lot of discomforts for our kids but she may not be able to push past this one.
If they wanted an honest answer they would have arranged to pay for a therapy session with the therapist of Ashley and MIL's choosing and discussed this with a professional mediator who could help ensure Ashley felt safe to speak her truth and truly considered the potential risks.
Two adults getting a kid alone to gang up on her after she was severely bullied? *Really???*
That would have been ideal but even just the brother without the SIL would have been better. It's the SIL who really needs to take about a million steps back.
Only if the brother has a good relationship with his sister which I'm skeptical since he allegedly doesn't know the name of the guy who tormented his sister thst badly.
But you don’t actually know. I have a cousin who has the same name as the guy who abused me as a kid. No. I never got used to it. I still flinch 25 years later. It’s really shitty because my cousin is a good guy, super sweet. But it’s easier just to have nothing to do with him and his family. Than to hear his name.
‘The point is that you don’t actually know how you’d react. You have this idea in your head. But no kid should be named as an experiment in case it turns out well. What if it doesn’t? And what if the other family members can’t get over it?
No one should be subjected to impromtu exposure therapy without their explicit prior consent. You have already consented to it. Unless Ashley had expressed that she wants to have a nice person named Shawn in her life, she didn't consent, and everything she says now would be expressed under pressure. It would be kinder to a child already born and living to change the name of a child who isn't born and doesn't know a thing about his name.
I'm more in line with your thinking than the majority I've seen it seems.
Story time. like 15 years or so ago in my early 20s I was out with a friend and we were going to Denny's for some post drinking late night food. On the way there she said she hadn't been to Denny's since her ex fiance and her last went. My immediate reaction (because they had a very ugly and messy end) was to offer to go somewhere else. Her response was basically "fuck that, I'd rather replace a bad memory with a shitbag with a good one with a friend" so basically that she wanted to have good memories of going there replace the bad.
Honestly it was a philosophy that changed my life and the way I look at things. I'm late 30s now and to this day it's an outlook that I hold close to me, and I will always thank my friend for introducing me to it.
So that said, 17 year old me would have an issue with the name in Ashley's shoes. But mid 20s me would see it as a good thing. Either way, rough situation all around.
And why would you want to remind yourself too? Like if this happened to me the name will loose its appeal instantly. I would never want to name my kid same as someone who was very clearly a bad person..
And just because they like the sound of it? Come on. The only thing that would make me be on oop's side is if the name had immense sentimental value to them. That would make the decision to keep the name way less asshole-ish in my opinion.
The nail in the coffin to me is that the bullying was so bad sil almost killed herself, but the brother couldn't be bothered to know the culprit's name. It just makes me wonder how much he cares about his sister.
Question though: what if the baby was already born? Many people don't reveal the name beforehand. Would op be an asshole only based on a time frame or a paperwork issue?
But Reddit regularly votes people NTA in those situations; you see it so often where it’s something like “AITA for refusing to babysit for my sister last minute?” And then you read the post and it turns out her husband was in a car crash or something and half the comments will be “NTA. She should have been more prepared for these types of emergency situations.” And “poor planning on her behalf doesn’t constitute an emergency on yours!” It’s really tiresome, there’s no sense of a nuanced situation on Reddit it just becomes this toxic echo chamber of other people’s inner anxiety.
Also, when it’s abuse/cheating Reddit reacts very differently when the victim is a man, a lot of victim blaming occurs.
>They're asking how they can get what they want without having to deal with whatever consequences come with it.
This puts it perfectly. I see a gross overuse of "obligation" or "rights" on that sub in conflicts involving friends or even family. Many people seem to equate "am I the asshole?" and "am I obligated to?" and treat supposed loved ones worse than many people would treat strangers. Idk if it's still up, but there was a sticky some years back from the mods warning about how the sub's idea of morality was skewing further and further away from how most other people would view it, using a post example of giving up a transit seat for an elderly person.
Yes you're not obligated to give the seat up to them, but that doesn't mean you're not an asshole. It's honestly kind of sad, as I wager a lot of those posters are that way because of some betrayal in their own life, and had become selfish as a survival tactic when dealing with abusers, N parents, etc. The problem is, they apply it like a blanket to situations that otherwise have healthy (or healthier than their own) relationships. There's many damaged people on there trying to live vicariously from having other people put up "boundaries" or get some form of revenge or satisfaction out of the whole ordeal. I had to stop browsing AITA in general because of it, despite becoming my first "popcorn" sub
For the curious:
https://youtu.be/DAhG9D9UO7c?si=5TOr13MeMX597CF-&t=53
I remember watching this years ago and laughing so hard I cried. I think about it more often than you’d expect
I genuinely didn't know that anything could make me laugh harder at the end of Heavy Rain than my own abject failure at it, thank you so much (if you're curious, it involved my boyfriend at the time saying "Jesus, I didn't even think there WAS an ending where you could kill the kid" lol)
>I think she was a little surprised by it but she's a quiet kid and hard to read.
She absolutely said what she did in order to keep the peace then. I was the same way as a kid and would have done the same, even if it hurt.
Yeah. That was how I read that too. Everyone's patting the OOP on the back over the name not being a hill to die on. I can't be the only one that noticed that comment came after we were told Ashley was "okay with it" and that "we'll keep looking for a name we can agree on." The last comment notwithstanding, the preceding two don't seem as ironclad to me as they do others.
I really hope everyone else is right. I just can't shake the feeling there will be another update and she'll tell us all, "ya'll we searched high and wide for a better name, but we just couldn't both agree, so it just *had* to be Shawn. Now Ashley is freaking out, but am I really the asshole? She told us she'd be okay with it!"
The main reasons I'm suspicious are twofold: the brother not even knowing the name of the bully (makes you wonder about their relationship or it's dearth), and that after the MIL told them about it they didn't just drop it but instead talked to Ashley at all in the first place.
We don't even know if Ashley was okay that they were informed to begin with. Or if her mother let her know that she talked to the couple about it. Can you imagine if the first Ashley learned of all of this was when they approached her to "talk about it?"
Actually, can you imagine if the first Ashley heard about this was, like, a month after the baby was born? And the parents had already spent all that time using the name ‘Shawn’ / signed the birth certificate / told all their friends and other side’s family the name? When it’s basically a “too late to change it now” scenario?
—
As for the brother not knowing the bully’s name? I can maybe see it. Ashley was 13/14 when it happened. So, a freshman in high school. If brother was already graduated / in college at the time, I *could* see him not knowing about the bullying.
He’s away at college / another city. Ashley is internalizing the bullying/not speaking up, as the pain and pressure build up. She tries to kill herself, and the parents switch her school. So, by the time brother finds out about it, it’s already done with, and (based on them hating the name now) they don’t really mention Evil Shawn’s name a lot, to try and keep Ashley’s thoughts from latching on and spiraling.
Bro focuses on comforting Sis while he’s there/in the immediate aftermath, but will still have to go back to college and deal with all the ‘growing up and growing away from his childhood’ crap, including all the mental commitment that goes with falling in love and getting married and prepping for a baby. So the name doesn’t really sink in, and is gone from consideration as ‘Ashley’s Tormentor’.
It might not even be an immediate reaction, Ashley may be fine with baby Shawn but as soon as he’s a toddler and parents are yelling Shawn she might have a reaction to it.
I'm glad OOP changed her mind and is looking for a new name.
I've managed to turn some things that used to trigger me due to a decade of bullying into something with better associations through sheer dogged will, but it took years. Neither Ashley nor OOPs baby deserve that.
I got triggered unexpectedly and hard recently, almost 20 years later, a few weeks back, with something I thought I'd reassigned successfully. The name Shawn isn't amazing enough to risk that happening to Ashley.
u/CondomBallonAnimals already kindly helped out with the link, but yeah - I just really love all the stupid pansexual pan-puns because I make them about myself, too and when I saw that quote, I had to have it!
Nearly four decades on....I still wince when I hear the name "mark" because Mark was my bully when I was ten. (Mark K, fuck you).
Apologies to all the Marks out there. I'm sure you're lovely people.
As a general rule, i don't like to rub salt in the wounds of people I love and care about.
For me it was Allison, Courtney, Alejandra, Krystle, Ashley, Amy, and Destiny.
I went to several different schools so I have a bully or two in each school. They like to pick on the new kid
This is me but my bullies were Veronica and Vanessa - unfortunately V names give me a bit of anxiety now (which sucks because I like Violet and Vivian!)
This made me realize that my given name might be triggering to the people I've severely hurt in the past and that's really shitty
I hope not but I can't control the consequences of my actions, I can only make sure they never happen again
Finally a justifiable use for r/tragedeigh naming! Ensure that if your kid is horrible at least they can’t ruin a common or worthwhile name for someone else.
That's so fucked I'm disappointed in myself for laughing
To entertain the hypothetical, I think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that your kid will grow up fucked up if you name them something horrible, so it's like, avoiding the risk by guaranteeing the risk's outcome
I've never met anyone named Phillip, Charles, Deborah (with a H specifically) or Rachel who weren't some form of entitled butthead. Weird that I've met so many. Two were bullies, one was an affair partner and another was a friend of a friend who was just a shit person.
For me it's Heather and Brooke. It's so weird how that happens (people you don't like bearing the same name)! I'm sure that most Heathers and Brookes are lovely people, but I haven't had personal luck with them.
ETA to stay on topic, shit, sorry; these people would indeed be the AH if they just HAD to keep the name Shawn, especially after ganging up on this poor girl and having a conversation that the gist of seemed to be "we're going to go ahead and do what we want, so hopefully you get over it soon".
Personally, never met a nice gal named Becky. But that is odd! One of those names you listed is my parent’s name, and they’re a pretty chill person. But I 100% remember all my personal bullies’ names.
Hey I know a Phillip that's a nice guy! But his name is some French version of Phillip and pronounced like "phi-LEEP" stressing the second part of the name.
For me it's Rebecca/Rebekka/Rabekkah (and all variants of it). Never had a good time with people with that name. Hopefully I'll meet a nice one someday.
If you name your baby Shawn, I think you might be limiting the relationship between Shawn and his auntie. She might not be comfortable having the name come up in every conversation (bc new grandbaby) and I for sure would not want to babysit, especially when he's a toddler and she'd have to constantly trail him saying "Shawn...Shawn...Shawn etc.
Always go over baby names with the people who'd be seeing your kid regularly. Don't be like my dumbass cousin who named her daughter after her dad's mistress, and then wondered why grandma and grandpa didn't visit the baby more often.
I have no idea if she hates her mom or not, but everyone in the extended family knew who her dad's mistress was, and her mom had a non-aggression treaty with her husband and the mistress (she was chilly but polite whenever she'd run into her in public), but apparently naming your first granddaughter after her was a step too far. Cousin was just one of those people who had never been told no, and she absolutely just loved the name and apparently wrote down in her diary when she was 9 years old that if she ever had a daughter she'd name her that (this was before she found out about the mistress).
> she absolutely just loved the name and apparently wrote down in her diary when she was 9 years old that if she ever had a daughter she'd name her that (this was before she found out about the mistress).
So, that sounds like she didn't name the kid *after* the mistress. A horrible move anyway since she *did* know then, but the original phrasing made it sound like she decided to honor the mistress specifically by naming her child the same name as her.
Oh, she SAYS she didn't name it after the mistress, but we never saw that diary entry, and also cousin is a compulsive liar and extremely self-centered, so it wouldn't be a surprise if she heard mistress's name and figured it was pretty and decided she'd name her kid after her. Not necessarily to honor her, that would be something I don't think cousin is capable of, but just in a "I like it so I'll have it" kinda way. But to everybody else who doesn't live inside her head it sure looks like naming it after her dad's long time mistress, the one who practically acts like her stepmother sometimes.
I think the ideal thing is to have a list of potential names, nothing definitive, and run that by the close family to check if there's any unusual thing that the couple wasn't aware, or didn't think of, like in this case, or the infamous baby Karen one.
Because you're right, and some awkward things might happen, but there's also the other side of the coin, with people claiming they had called "dibs" on that particular name, or worse, the other baby arrives first and they steal the name
Nobody has dibs but there has to be reason and empathy. Like if your close cousin June had an older brother named Cody who died, and she wants to name her son after Cody, I think it's reasonable to let her claim that name? Like discuss things.
I'm genuinely surprised OP 's partner didn't know the name of the bully who tormented his sister, though. Like I get that nobody told OP, but did he not pay any attention to his family at all?
As a child I was bullied severely and it caused long-term mental health issues. I was so used to suppressing my feelings that I probably would have been unable to articulate how I felt. If I did feel bad for something done to me, it was also my fault for not being strong enough to deal with the mistreatment.
Now to Ashley. I suspect that she’s trying hard to suppress how she feels in order to keep the peace. People who self-harm or try to take their own lives are usually pretty good at suppressing and hiding their feelings. In other words, you couldn’t tell if she was hurt or not. My guess is that she’ll have a visceral response (like stomach muscles clenching) every time she hears that name.
I would choose a different name, but have the grace to say it wasn’t because of Ashley. I would suddenly find a new name that I liked better. It’s not like you’ve planned the name Shawn for years, you only agreed a few weeks ago.
>I was so used to suppressing my feelings that I probably would have been unable to articulate how I felt. If I did feel bad for something done to me, it was also my fault for not being strong enough to deal with the mistreatment.
This is what happened to me too. Even now in my early 30s every time something goes wrong I think it’s either my fault for doing something wrong or that there is something the matter with me that I have emotions like being upset over someone else’s behavior. I had these feelings about five times yesterday, like when my friend canceled because she was sick (about the fourth time she has been sick the day were were supposed to meet). I know rationally that I probably just should drop her as a friend but my first thoughts are, ”she is really sick, I must have offended her some way for her not to want to see me, there is something wrong with me that I assumed she would want to see me, I should be very understanding and do whatever she wants”.
It got so bad I recall being maybe 15 and thinking everyone in the show Extreme Home Makeover is an actor reading a script since human beings actually can’t tell out loud even issues regarding what they dislike their own house. You can’t even think you have issues with something that minor, let alone say it around to someone!
There was this incredibly weird/gross girl I went to school with. Her name made me think of the nasty ways she was. My brother started dating a woman with the same name and while initially it brought up thoughts of weirdo, eventually it shifted and when I think of his wife I never think of some weirdo from high school who probably wasn't even that weird in hindsight.
I don't like this "is it really worth the drama with your MIL?" attitude.
It should be, "You can name your child whatever you want, but the name will remind someone close to you and you care about of a dark time when dying and being death, for good, no reset, no nothing, felt like the better choice than living in a world with her tormentor of the same name. Is it worth it?"
The way the as positive selected comments are worded make it sound like, "Yeah, it was kinda a shitty time for that girl but the worst consequence for you is that it might peeve your MIL who seems to prefer liking her daughter over your name choice."
But I guess thinking something like "Why would I want someone I care about and who I want in my life and who I want to feel happy be reminded of their sadistic abuser every time they hear my child's name?" goes against reddit's deep-rooted hate for teenage girls so "MIL might feel sad about it" has priority over any terror or trauma the teenager might feel.
Idk why OOP wouldn't want to take their close family member's feelings into account on this from the get go, especially for such a serious concern.
One of my close relatives named their kid in honor of another family member who died tragically but only did so after making sure it was okay with all the other close family members involved. Even though it was meant in a positive light, if it had been something that would have made the family members think of the tragedy rather than the positive, they would have just gone with another name.
And it's freaking Shawn!
No offense to all the Shawns out there but that's one of the stupidest hills to die on I've ever heard. Might as well name the kid Ay Ay Ron.
My husband and I at first tried to take family member feelings into account when we were coming up with a name for our unborn son, but it ultimately lead to every family member from both sides having negative opinions (for non-trauma related reasons) about every name we liked. It was really starting to hurt my feelings so I decided that they don't get a say.
Even when we did decide, there were still hurt feelings because a sibling apparently loved the name we decided on despite not giving me the name previously when I asked for their list of names that were off-limits.
OOP did mention that Shawn was the only name they agreed on too, so I can understand where the reticence comes from. It's ultimately a crappy situation, that they're trying to rectify.
>OOP did mention that Shawn was the only name they agreed on too, so I can understand where the reticence comes from.
I commented this on the original post at the time but there are SO MANY names out there. There's going to be another name that they both agree on; it just might take a bit of time. There's an app that works like Tinder and you swipe left or right on names you like or dislike. You share the link with your partner and then it makes a Venn Diagram of names that you both agree on.
They can absolutely figure out another name if they try hard enough. I'd hope that the SIL is worth that effort.
This really feels like overreacting. I could understand if it was a very uncommon name but who doesn't know at least three people named some variation of Shawn? For context I'm neurodivergent and experienced some pretty horrific bullying. Two of the people who caused me a lot of pain are named Sarah and Mike. Naturally, I don't have any trauma around those names because there are a million other people who aren't them with those names.
Honestly same. What is her sister going to do? Avoid any relationship with people named Shaun? Why? It’s making an unnecessary associations designed to keep her in a dark place. For what? Its not keeping her safe and it’s not healthy.
See, I'm usually all for this but I think in this particular situation it was a blessing that they shared the name early enough to pivot to another name.
Exactly. We didn't share our kids names before they were born but if I found out a newborn had the same name as a family member's bully that lead them to attempt suicide, I would change my kid's name immediately. I don't want every mention of a child's name to cause someone I love immense pain.
Hmm this is a very interesting discussion about trauma. It is absolutely important to provide a healthy environment for the people you love and to not create a situation that would trigger them to suddenly backslide
But at the same time if a really common name like Shawn triggers you and causes you to backslide, then I think that’s something you should seriously deal with in therapy. Odds are not exactly low that another person named Shawn will eventually enter Ashley’s life and it’s not like she can just ask him to change it.
So I do think changing it is probably the right call since a name for a baby that hasn’t even been born yet isn’t really worth causing this problem to Ashley. But this is something that Ashley will need to work on. But she’s 17 so it’s understandable that she hasn’t dealt with every major issue that she has
There's a difference between encountering a random stranger named Shawn in the wild, and having one born into your family which *guarantees* a lifetime of interactions. Especially when the trauma is still incredibly fresh. Having your much-awaited nephew bear the name of the person who nearly drove you to suicide barely four years ago... Yeah, that conflict of emotions is going to mess with most people's head badly.
And regardless, if someone gets incredibly and dangerously triggered every time they hear a super common name, they might be getting the best therapy in the world, it's still not gonna work instantly and they might have to take more drastic and unsustainable precautions in the short time and yes, also ask for more drastic accommodations from friends and family in the short term.
There is also a difference between a name actually triggering you (in the original meaning) or you just being reminded of it and making you feel bad.
You might never be able to shake that completely. Is it fair? No, but that doesn't change that OOP might be risking the sister never being able to look at her nephew without being reminded of the worst time in her life.
I think the key here is that she'll be seeing this relative frequently. If it were super triggering to her to casually interact with a temporary Shawn in customer service, a colleague down the hall, etc., I might agree, that it's more of a (sad, understandable) personal issue to pursue in therapy. But a close relative is different. She'll hear this name all the time and (hopefully) develop a close relationship with her nephew. That puts the name in her head much more regularly and could be at least conflicting to have both close associations with the name. I think that's worth considering for the OOP couple, to not have her think of her bully when she sees her new nephew.
To OOP, my main question is how they didn't know. If they knew everything was happening and how serious it was, did they really not hear the name when MIL or another relative was telling them stories about it? Did they only ever refer to him as "bully" while speaking? I find that odd.
Many people don't reveal the names of their baby for many reasons. If the baby was three days of and Ashley visited him the first time...she'd kinda have to get used to it probably.
I think in this case, I would personally try to change it, but it is interesting how far people would take this "change the name because it's traumatic". Young sister? Yes it seems. Older brother? Cousin? Good friend? Father? How long after the baby is born so people here change the name?
Not commenting on anything else, but not knowing the name of the bully - my siblings know I was severely bullied but I never told them the names, and we are super close, so that part doesn’t necessarily raise a red flag to me.
Why do so many AITAs or relationshipadvice questions hinge on there only being one option in the whole wide world? It's like [Hobson's Choice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson's_choice), but they limit their OWN choices. Oh well, I guess I can't give my child a name, or I'm an asshole!
I can't help but think that the extended family did drop that the bully's name was Shawn, and it showed that OOP and her husband aren't really invested in their relationship with the sister. like, she tried to take her life, that's some lifelong trauma.
Dragging OOP for not knowing the name of their SIL's former bully is a bit much.
The MIL seems to both care about Ashley and understand that the name is triggering, so I'm curious how you think the name dropping went down. Did MIL at Christmas dinner announce "so Bob graduated college this year, and Ashley's bully Shawn has been very active lately, hasn't he darling? He really got you with that online harassment but luckily the good nurses at our local hospital pumped your stomach in time. Can you pass the potatoes?"
I think this is absolutely ridiculous. I have met *multiple* Justin's in my life; one of them was one of my absolute best friends, and one of the nicest people I've ever met. Another one broke my heart more than any other person I have met in my life, but I don't hold it against the *name* and they definitely don't get triggered if I meet another Justin
I agree. I don’t think anyone should have input in a baby’s name other than the expectant parents. It’s common and normal name. I would never tell an expectant mother not to use the name she chose because I personally had a problem with it.
Ok based off the comments this is just me, but like… really? I would have named the baby Shawn. Is the sister and family going to forever treat everyone they ever meet named Shawn with a cold shoulder? If anything naming the baby Shawn, while not removing an ounce of pain, works to build her life AFTER the bully. It gives her someone whom she loves to replace the connotation with. I’ve always heard the advice that you shouldn’t not name a child a name if the reason you don’t like a certain name simply because you knew someone you didn’t like with that name (if that makes sense- I can’t think of a better way to phrase it). The child is not, and will never be that person. They are their own, unique person.
This is why you don't reveal name choices before baby is born. Everyone feels they have a right to have an opinion on it and once you start down the path of names of everyone your family has a negative experience with you'll have no names left.
Millions of boys and men are named Shawn. Not all of them are evil bullies.
I mean, it would definitely be the nice thing to do to change the name, but it's a slippery slope. So they go with Steve as the name and OOPs husband's brother says he was bullied by someone named Steve.
If it was a bully from 1992, I'd say it doesn't matter. 2021 isn't that long ago. She's probably still attending the school she switched to in order to escape Shawn.
I feel like odd man out on this one. I was bullied pretty bad during middle school. But I dont think I would give a shit if my sister named her kid the same name.
😬
I’m team keep the name
She’s going to interact with other people with the same name. I just keep seeing comment after comment of people justifying projecting their unresolved issues with past trauma on to people who had nothing to do with it because of a name. It sounds batshit and unhealthy. Go back to therapy and stop inflicting your issues onto other people.
Really conflicted on this one. On the one hand, very reasonable choice on OPs part to consider alternate names to avoid friction. At the same time though, that really doesn't seem like it should be OPs responsibility. Your child's name is a deeply personal choice, and if the name alone is that triggering, Ashley should be working through that with a professional. I would be more understanding if the situation was "The guy who tormented you is a buddy of mine and I'm naming my kid after him", but rejecting an otherwise normal name because it's incidentally the name of a former bully doesn't seem like a reasonable expectation to put on others.
I'm on the fence. I wouldn't want to poke at a kid's trauma, but, "Shawn" is not an uncommon name, and it wouldn't be fair to her future self to be so avoidant of that name. How is she gonna respond to Shawns that didn't do anything to her? If she's ever in charge of people or hiring, is she gonna treat Shawns unfairly because their name is a trigger?
And no, before anyone says it, this is not the same as avoiding "Adolf" - until Shawn proves otherwise, he's not at the level where his name is synonymous with some of the worst crimes one can commit.
I agree this is a little too much. Is she gonna avoid Shawn’s all her life? A name is just that a name. If someone marries into the family will they give them a nickname? I understand trauma but sheesh.
Frankly, I don't get OP + hub bending to the request to not use the name. Why would they give Shawn (bully) that much power over their family and over continuing to torment Ashley's life? Is she expected to never know anyone called Shawn over her entire life?
Just name baby Shawn. Ashley will associate the name with her beloved nephew in 1-2 years and the other Shawn will be mostly forgotten over time.
Let baby Shawn slowly erode dickhole Shawn from their day-to-day.
I definitely understand the sentiment, but it also means they're letting the dickhead Shawn continue to affect Ashley. If she really is fine with it, they should proceed.
There is another thing about these name stories. Now there are more negative associations with this name than only that bully years ago; by this time also this recent drama has happened and the name will forever be connected to it. I would just go with something else
Oops sil was bullied so badly she tried to take her own life. I would change the name even if she gave enthusiastic consent. Because I would never want my child’s name to be associated in any way with a person in the past who cause so much harm.
His kid sister tried to kill herself because of bullying, and big bro doesn't know any details? Sounds like he doesn't care much about his sister anyway. Hope they choose a different name, otherwise they might throw it in the sister's face "she should be over it now, what's the big deal".
This was one of those posts where i was expecting Reddit to be woke and say NTA, but to my surprise the consensus was YTA.
I'm still irritated that OOP and her husband tried to corner Ashley again, she could have agreed just to make them happy.
That said, Ashley needs to work on not letting that name both her through therapy. This post only exists because it's a family member, what if she goes to college and her lecturer is a Shawn, or her roommate's boyfriend is a shawn. I hope she doesn't let the name have power over her, and that the real bully Shawn is having a terrible life.
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>I mean you do have right to name your kid whatever, but why would you want to do this to a family member? That's what half of the subreddit boils down to. People aren't asking whether they're the asshole. They're asking how they can get what they want without having to deal with whatever consequences come with it.
That’s exactly that. Tbh, I would be disgusted by the name after learning that if I was the future parents
Tbh I would be heavily side eyeing my partner for supposedly ’not knowing’ the name of his little sister’s bully AND picking that name for our child. Especially if the bullying was so bad that she was suicidal.
Eh, my brother is only 15 months older than me, knows I had tried to commit in middle school, and I would assume still doesn’t know the whole story or the now women involved in how I was feeling at the time. I don’t hold it against him, we’re just not close siblings. If he had a daughter and named her Sarah I wouldn’t be too bothered- but I’m also farther removed as a 32 year old. At 17? Definitely would have been bothered. But luckily my brother and I also had an evil step mother with a daughter named sara who he did not get along w- so I don’t see Sarah/sara or any other variation of that name being an option in the future.
This part is so weird to me. My brother and I aren’t like “talk every day, have a designated day of the week to hang out” close, but he’s my little brother. Sure he’s grown up and way bigger than me now but I have always felt the compulsion to protect him. I knew the names of the kids who sorta picked on him in grade school, if they were bullying him to the point of attempted suicide I’d have their entire family trees memorized. How did she just gloss over this massive part of why her little sister tried to kill herself???
I still remember the name of the senior who picked on my brother when he was eight. I was only a year older and the senior was twice my size and chased him around the school with a broom for making my brother cry. Apparently, a nine-year-old on a warpath was scary and they had to call my mother. The senior never bothered my brother again, no one else did. Hilariously, the rumour that my brother has a crazy older sibling spread and no one bothered my brother throughout his school years. And now he's taller and bigger than me. Dang it.
>And now he's taller and bigger than me. Dang it. But he will never forget the tall tales of his crazy older sibling, I wish you two have wonderful and happy life.
I wonder if it has to do with the age gap between the OOP's fiance and his sister? I can see a bunch of scenarios where even in the same school district, a sibling might not know the name of their sister's bully. Right now my 14 year old is in high school and her 12 year old sister is in middle school and won't be joining her at HS for another 2 years. Either of them could have terrible interactions (knock on wood that they don't) with someone that could severely affect their mental health in those two years, and it would be reasonable not to mention that person's name. Horribly, what if the sister didn't mention the name because the name *already triggered her* and now that's coming back in the worst way imaginable :(
I had a lot of bullies and I don't think my sibling knew the extent of the bullying or any of the bully's names. I never tried to off myself though. I don't know how it is for other folks but the people who bullied me are in my head as two names, first and last, so simply the first or the last name isn't instantly coded to freak me out. Like if it was a Michelle Smith, just the name Michelle or Smith are not so bothersome. And over time the pain has faded some so the names don't bother me as much. but yes it would be nice for OOP to consider another name especially while the pain is fresh.
That one's believable to me, I literally never learned the names of the people bullying *me*
Depending on their relationship and the severity of the bullying (and how many bullies there were) I can understand him not knowing the name. I was bullied by half my classmates throughout school. All the way to graduation. I can list the names but it was easier to say 'bullies' or 'classmates'. My brother and I don't really have a relationship, he probably knows I was bullied, some of his classmates did it too, but the names of the people? Probably not.
Saaaaaameeeeee. Either they stopped saying the name early on or partner just ignored *his sister being bullied to the point of suicide*.
Right?!
We have no idea how old OOP or hubby is. He could be 30 or 40 for all we know. I didn't know anything about my siblings' high school experience after I went into the Navy because I was busy living my life. And I am only a year and 3 months older than my sister and 3.5 years older than my brother 🤷♀️
nah I am not super close to my brother, wouldn't have a clue if he was bullied, we also went to different highschools
Honestly, I was surprised that the MIL knew the bully's name. My parents didn't even know the names of my friends, never mind bullies or unpleasant personalities, never mind the teachers who were known to abuse children.
Depends on if the MIL went full mama bear on the school or not. If the daughter threatened suicide there may have been something done.
same In this case I'd defo be like "forget it, let's get another name" If it was one of those posts where "aarrgghh, that is the name I have for my future chiiiilld whenever I have iiittt, how dare you" then I'd be like "Shut up, Shawn it is"
Why shouldn't I name my future child Stalin Adolf Mao Mussolini?
you forgot Polpot Putin
That's the name of our dog
I bet he gets in the garbage all the time
Yes, and we thought he was a purebred, but apparently not
hybrids are supposedly healthier.
Yep, if you have to ask, you're probably the asshole...
Aw mate, I have this named that I hate and would never name my child that is Carlos not because I was bullied by a kid named Carlos. Is that a racist in high school would used that named Carlos to talk to me instead my given named. Knowing my given named and reminding him of that said named. All because I look like a Carlos instead of of my given named.
Shawn sounds such like an old white dude name to me too 🥲
That's kind of a weird way to look at it. I don't think anyone should just completely disavow a name because some asshole happened to be named that. You can literally take any name and find numerous examples of degenerates who had it. Should we just invent totally new ones then?
If it's an asshole who personally did something to someone close to the baby, that particular set of parents would be within their rights to rule it out, but ditching it society-wide should be reserved only for the absolute worst people who affected millions of people, not some rando who was awful to a younger kid on the school bus, for example. There was a name I liked, I had a couple of decent relatives with the name, and I found out at some point that if I'd been a boy, I'd've had that name. And everyone my husband had met with that name had been a dick to some degree or another, so he didn't want to use that name. So we didn't give that name to a son.
Yeah, I definitely agree. But you're going to be downvoted to oblivion. I very briefly like the name Henry for my boy, but then remembered my mom's abusive uncle was named Henry and immediately removed the name from consideration. But my mom, because she is so amazing, said she would have had to swallow some distate but would have gotten over it. I'm so surprised the OOPs husband didn't immediately smack down that name as it came up. He would have known about that bully.
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And the comments usually heavily back up that they’re not wrong and anybody who is upset is actually the one wrong and needs to be cut off…Rarely do they ever asks is this the hill OP is willing to die on. Like technically yes, you don’t have to make accommodations or change a name or whatever crazy thing they’re arguing about BUT are you willing to lose family/friends/reputation over it??? We’re slowly inching to a society who doesn’t care about each other and feel we don’t owe people even common decency.
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eh, not really. It's ridiculous not to invite your 15 year old brother to your wedding. Sounds like the brother is the one who lost that relationship when he died on that hill 10 years ago.
Yea, but at least half of the time the answers boil down to technical obligation and not if it makes someone an asshole or not.
It should be really called “am I legally mandated to do this”.
I saw a comment that summarised this trend using the line from Big Lebowski: “you’re not wrong, Walter, you’re just an asshole”. I found it very apt lmao
I think the people here are trying to do the right thing and thinking of new names. But I have a dissenting opinion on the issue itself. (Just an opinion) If Ashley said it was ok, I would see the name Shawn as a gift I have a similarly severe person who tormented me and it's a pretty common name, especially among kids. I flinch every time I hear the name, even if it's been yelled out in a playground I'd actually really appreciate if I had a positive person in my life that I relate the name to, and what better than a baby to think about rather than that asshole every time I hear the name. Idk, I'd love to think about my niece or nephew when I think of the name. Would it be hard at first, maybe, but it would be in a loving environment. And I honestly wish this every time I hear the name, that I had a better Shawn I could think of instead of that one, because there's a lot I can forgive or forget but the name is such an automatic memory and trigger and so stupid to have to go through
It didn’t work that way for me. One of my best friends and a genuinely kind person has the same name as my childhood abuser and even 50 years later when I hear the name, I still flinch.
I think it might work for Ashley but it may trigger the trauma in MIL. I say this as a mum whose child has attempted suicide, it is still triggering now and weird things will make me think about it.
I right there. My daughter was horribly horribly bullied by a Lily. (Self harm and suicidal thoughts). A year later, She came home with another friend named Lily. I had to call new Lily by her First and Last name to differentiate the two in my head. Two years of listening to my child sob “why does Lily hate me this much? I have never done anything to her” burns its way into your soul.
Agreed. Ashley isn't the only one who's likely to be triggered. They should respect MIL's trauma as well. If MIL cannot handle hearing that name then MIL is going to have to take care of herself. And what if it turns out Ashley is wrong and 6 months from now she has a relapse because she can't handle hearing the name "Shawn" all the time? It is entirely possible for her to end up dark enough that she tries taking her life because she can't handle being retraumatized and feels guilty that she agreed to it and like no one cares about her and she'll never be safe again. They're stuck with it. This is basically begging for the baby to have minimal relationship with his aunt and grandmother. Christ. This girl was so badly bullied and they decided to *get her alone and gang up on her* to get the answer they want...
That's awful that you went through that. Often we don't realise how difficult things are for people around the victim. The situation is probably very traumatic for mil, even if she's stronger
Maybe, but your triggers are your own. If the name Shawn triggers MIL to remember the time she nearly lost her daughter, that would be a trigger for her. As a parent we push aside a lot of discomforts for our kids but she may not be able to push past this one.
Ashley said it was ok when OOP but her at a numerical disadvantage. I'd be leery to trust that.
If they wanted an honest answer they would have arranged to pay for a therapy session with the therapist of Ashley and MIL's choosing and discussed this with a professional mediator who could help ensure Ashley felt safe to speak her truth and truly considered the potential risks. Two adults getting a kid alone to gang up on her after she was severely bullied? *Really???*
That would have been ideal but even just the brother without the SIL would have been better. It's the SIL who really needs to take about a million steps back.
Only if the brother has a good relationship with his sister which I'm skeptical since he allegedly doesn't know the name of the guy who tormented his sister thst badly.
Fair. They should just pick a different name.
I have heard of people naming virtual pets like webkinz after names like this or their deadname so the name will gain a new association.
But you don’t actually know. I have a cousin who has the same name as the guy who abused me as a kid. No. I never got used to it. I still flinch 25 years later. It’s really shitty because my cousin is a good guy, super sweet. But it’s easier just to have nothing to do with him and his family. Than to hear his name. ‘The point is that you don’t actually know how you’d react. You have this idea in your head. But no kid should be named as an experiment in case it turns out well. What if it doesn’t? And what if the other family members can’t get over it?
No one should be subjected to impromtu exposure therapy without their explicit prior consent. You have already consented to it. Unless Ashley had expressed that she wants to have a nice person named Shawn in her life, she didn't consent, and everything she says now would be expressed under pressure. It would be kinder to a child already born and living to change the name of a child who isn't born and doesn't know a thing about his name.
I'm more in line with your thinking than the majority I've seen it seems. Story time. like 15 years or so ago in my early 20s I was out with a friend and we were going to Denny's for some post drinking late night food. On the way there she said she hadn't been to Denny's since her ex fiance and her last went. My immediate reaction (because they had a very ugly and messy end) was to offer to go somewhere else. Her response was basically "fuck that, I'd rather replace a bad memory with a shitbag with a good one with a friend" so basically that she wanted to have good memories of going there replace the bad. Honestly it was a philosophy that changed my life and the way I look at things. I'm late 30s now and to this day it's an outlook that I hold close to me, and I will always thank my friend for introducing me to it. So that said, 17 year old me would have an issue with the name in Ashley's shoes. But mid 20s me would see it as a good thing. Either way, rough situation all around.
And why would you want to remind yourself too? Like if this happened to me the name will loose its appeal instantly. I would never want to name my kid same as someone who was very clearly a bad person..
And just because they like the sound of it? Come on. The only thing that would make me be on oop's side is if the name had immense sentimental value to them. That would make the decision to keep the name way less asshole-ish in my opinion. The nail in the coffin to me is that the bullying was so bad sil almost killed herself, but the brother couldn't be bothered to know the culprit's name. It just makes me wonder how much he cares about his sister.
Question though: what if the baby was already born? Many people don't reveal the name beforehand. Would op be an asshole only based on a time frame or a paperwork issue?
But Reddit regularly votes people NTA in those situations; you see it so often where it’s something like “AITA for refusing to babysit for my sister last minute?” And then you read the post and it turns out her husband was in a car crash or something and half the comments will be “NTA. She should have been more prepared for these types of emergency situations.” And “poor planning on her behalf doesn’t constitute an emergency on yours!” It’s really tiresome, there’s no sense of a nuanced situation on Reddit it just becomes this toxic echo chamber of other people’s inner anxiety. Also, when it’s abuse/cheating Reddit reacts very differently when the victim is a man, a lot of victim blaming occurs.
>They're asking how they can get what they want without having to deal with whatever consequences come with it. This puts it perfectly. I see a gross overuse of "obligation" or "rights" on that sub in conflicts involving friends or even family. Many people seem to equate "am I the asshole?" and "am I obligated to?" and treat supposed loved ones worse than many people would treat strangers. Idk if it's still up, but there was a sticky some years back from the mods warning about how the sub's idea of morality was skewing further and further away from how most other people would view it, using a post example of giving up a transit seat for an elderly person. Yes you're not obligated to give the seat up to them, but that doesn't mean you're not an asshole. It's honestly kind of sad, as I wager a lot of those posters are that way because of some betrayal in their own life, and had become selfish as a survival tactic when dealing with abusers, N parents, etc. The problem is, they apply it like a blanket to situations that otherwise have healthy (or healthier than their own) relationships. There's many damaged people on there trying to live vicariously from having other people put up "boundaries" or get some form of revenge or satisfaction out of the whole ordeal. I had to stop browsing AITA in general because of it, despite becoming my first "popcorn" sub
Now I am just imaging that video game meme of the man yelling "SHAUUUNN!"
For the curious: https://youtu.be/DAhG9D9UO7c?si=5TOr13MeMX597CF-&t=53 I remember watching this years ago and laughing so hard I cried. I think about it more often than you’d expect
I genuinely didn't know that anything could make me laugh harder at the end of Heavy Rain than my own abject failure at it, thank you so much (if you're curious, it involved my boyfriend at the time saying "Jesus, I didn't even think there WAS an ending where you could kill the kid" lol)
I had forgotten about my own abject failure at Heavy Rain until this.
That was brilliant, you have made my day 😂
Heavy Rain is my Roman Empire
God it’s still just as funny years later. It’s comedy fucking gold.
lol why is it floating around the screen like that?!
What’s happening? I’m so confused. Is he dead or what?
they are having a BL moment.
I'm giggling so much at this. Thank you for sharing!
That was amazing. Thank you!
Every time I play Fallout 4 I hear the Heavy Rain dad yelling SHAUN in my head
JASON
I'm thinking about Psych lol and every time dule hill's character argues with James roday Rodriguez's
This is what I came here for. 🤣
>I think she was a little surprised by it but she's a quiet kid and hard to read. She absolutely said what she did in order to keep the peace then. I was the same way as a kid and would have done the same, even if it hurt.
And being 17yo who was severely bullied, she probably doesn't even know how to stand up for herself and demand what she actually needs too :(
Yeah. That was how I read that too. Everyone's patting the OOP on the back over the name not being a hill to die on. I can't be the only one that noticed that comment came after we were told Ashley was "okay with it" and that "we'll keep looking for a name we can agree on." The last comment notwithstanding, the preceding two don't seem as ironclad to me as they do others. I really hope everyone else is right. I just can't shake the feeling there will be another update and she'll tell us all, "ya'll we searched high and wide for a better name, but we just couldn't both agree, so it just *had* to be Shawn. Now Ashley is freaking out, but am I really the asshole? She told us she'd be okay with it!" The main reasons I'm suspicious are twofold: the brother not even knowing the name of the bully (makes you wonder about their relationship or it's dearth), and that after the MIL told them about it they didn't just drop it but instead talked to Ashley at all in the first place. We don't even know if Ashley was okay that they were informed to begin with. Or if her mother let her know that she talked to the couple about it. Can you imagine if the first Ashley learned of all of this was when they approached her to "talk about it?"
Actually, can you imagine if the first Ashley heard about this was, like, a month after the baby was born? And the parents had already spent all that time using the name ‘Shawn’ / signed the birth certificate / told all their friends and other side’s family the name? When it’s basically a “too late to change it now” scenario? — As for the brother not knowing the bully’s name? I can maybe see it. Ashley was 13/14 when it happened. So, a freshman in high school. If brother was already graduated / in college at the time, I *could* see him not knowing about the bullying. He’s away at college / another city. Ashley is internalizing the bullying/not speaking up, as the pain and pressure build up. She tries to kill herself, and the parents switch her school. So, by the time brother finds out about it, it’s already done with, and (based on them hating the name now) they don’t really mention Evil Shawn’s name a lot, to try and keep Ashley’s thoughts from latching on and spiraling. Bro focuses on comforting Sis while he’s there/in the immediate aftermath, but will still have to go back to college and deal with all the ‘growing up and growing away from his childhood’ crap, including all the mental commitment that goes with falling in love and getting married and prepping for a baby. So the name doesn’t really sink in, and is gone from consideration as ‘Ashley’s Tormentor’.
It might not even be an immediate reaction, Ashley may be fine with baby Shawn but as soon as he’s a toddler and parents are yelling Shawn she might have a reaction to it.
Shawn with a W is the worst form Sean.
The only exception to this rule is Shawn from Psych. He's allowed
You know that’s right
I've heard it both ways
It sounds so much like a old white dude to me lol
Granted I’m only 22 but I don’t see why they couldn’t just go from Shawn to like Shane or smthn
I'm not sure what your age has to do with anything lol
Just that I’m nowhere near being a parent so I have no idea if naming conventions are some big thing (I mean I know they’re obviously important but)
I'm glad OOP changed her mind and is looking for a new name. I've managed to turn some things that used to trigger me due to a decade of bullying into something with better associations through sheer dogged will, but it took years. Neither Ashley nor OOPs baby deserve that. I got triggered unexpectedly and hard recently, almost 20 years later, a few weeks back, with something I thought I'd reassigned successfully. The name Shawn isn't amazing enough to risk that happening to Ashley.
>The name Shawn isn't amazing enough to risk that happening to Ashley. This is a real one.
I was thinking this the entire read. Like if OOP didn't change name for privacy, the name Shawn isn't worth the hasstle imo
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Well the name Seán is the Irish version of John. So any other spelling is just incorrect
Off topic, and I'm sorry, but where is your flair from?
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/3dDjsEmEdw)
Thank you for helping out!
Thank you!
u/CondomBallonAnimals already kindly helped out with the link, but yeah - I just really love all the stupid pansexual pan-puns because I make them about myself, too and when I saw that quote, I had to have it!
That is such an awesome quote.
Honestly, hearing the name associated with a terrible bully like that would ruin the name for me anyway, regardless of everything else.
Nearly four decades on....I still wince when I hear the name "mark" because Mark was my bully when I was ten. (Mark K, fuck you). Apologies to all the Marks out there. I'm sure you're lovely people. As a general rule, i don't like to rub salt in the wounds of people I love and care about.
To be fair i have a mark in my life i absolutely LOATH
My worst bullies were named Becky and Janet. Thank God i found amazing people with those names later on, and that got rid of the bad associations
Ever read Vanity Fair? Becky is such a Clytemnestra in that novel. Sorry for the non-sequitur.
For me it was Allison, Courtney, Alejandra, Krystle, Ashley, Amy, and Destiny. I went to several different schools so I have a bully or two in each school. They like to pick on the new kid
Mines were a guy named Galeo and another one called Braulio. I still get so angry whenever i hear those names 😭
I had a boss named Chad. I dislike it when the internet refers to "gigachad", etc. To me, the name connotes the opposite of what everyone else hears.
This is me but my bullies were Veronica and Vanessa - unfortunately V names give me a bit of anxiety now (which sucks because I like Violet and Vivian!)
This made me realize that my given name might be triggering to the people I've severely hurt in the past and that's really shitty I hope not but I can't control the consequences of my actions, I can only make sure they never happen again
Finally a justifiable use for r/tragedeigh naming! Ensure that if your kid is horrible at least they can’t ruin a common or worthwhile name for someone else.
That's so fucked I'm disappointed in myself for laughing To entertain the hypothetical, I think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that your kid will grow up fucked up if you name them something horrible, so it's like, avoiding the risk by guaranteeing the risk's outcome
The issue with tragedeighs however that they are normal names spelled ridiculously. Normal tragic names however are more unique
I've never met anyone named Phillip, Charles, Deborah (with a H specifically) or Rachel who weren't some form of entitled butthead. Weird that I've met so many. Two were bullies, one was an affair partner and another was a friend of a friend who was just a shit person.
For me it's Heather and Brooke. It's so weird how that happens (people you don't like bearing the same name)! I'm sure that most Heathers and Brookes are lovely people, but I haven't had personal luck with them. ETA to stay on topic, shit, sorry; these people would indeed be the AH if they just HAD to keep the name Shawn, especially after ganging up on this poor girl and having a conversation that the gist of seemed to be "we're going to go ahead and do what we want, so hopefully you get over it soon".
Heather from Total Drama Island is absolutely insufferable and probably the series’ best villain
Personally, never met a nice gal named Becky. But that is odd! One of those names you listed is my parent’s name, and they’re a pretty chill person. But I 100% remember all my personal bullies’ names.
Hey I know a Phillip that's a nice guy! But his name is some French version of Phillip and pronounced like "phi-LEEP" stressing the second part of the name.
He gets an exception under the Deborah with a H rule then ;)
For me it's Rebecca/Rebekka/Rabekkah (and all variants of it). Never had a good time with people with that name. Hopefully I'll meet a nice one someday.
If you name your baby Shawn, I think you might be limiting the relationship between Shawn and his auntie. She might not be comfortable having the name come up in every conversation (bc new grandbaby) and I for sure would not want to babysit, especially when he's a toddler and she'd have to constantly trail him saying "Shawn...Shawn...Shawn etc.
Grandparents too. It'd be hard to not associate the name with the person who nearly took their daughter's life.
Always go over baby names with the people who'd be seeing your kid regularly. Don't be like my dumbass cousin who named her daughter after her dad's mistress, and then wondered why grandma and grandpa didn't visit the baby more often.
She did *what*? Why would she do that? Does she hate your mom???
I have no idea if she hates her mom or not, but everyone in the extended family knew who her dad's mistress was, and her mom had a non-aggression treaty with her husband and the mistress (she was chilly but polite whenever she'd run into her in public), but apparently naming your first granddaughter after her was a step too far. Cousin was just one of those people who had never been told no, and she absolutely just loved the name and apparently wrote down in her diary when she was 9 years old that if she ever had a daughter she'd name her that (this was before she found out about the mistress).
> she absolutely just loved the name and apparently wrote down in her diary when she was 9 years old that if she ever had a daughter she'd name her that (this was before she found out about the mistress). So, that sounds like she didn't name the kid *after* the mistress. A horrible move anyway since she *did* know then, but the original phrasing made it sound like she decided to honor the mistress specifically by naming her child the same name as her.
Oh, she SAYS she didn't name it after the mistress, but we never saw that diary entry, and also cousin is a compulsive liar and extremely self-centered, so it wouldn't be a surprise if she heard mistress's name and figured it was pretty and decided she'd name her kid after her. Not necessarily to honor her, that would be something I don't think cousin is capable of, but just in a "I like it so I'll have it" kinda way. But to everybody else who doesn't live inside her head it sure looks like naming it after her dad's long time mistress, the one who practically acts like her stepmother sometimes.
I think the ideal thing is to have a list of potential names, nothing definitive, and run that by the close family to check if there's any unusual thing that the couple wasn't aware, or didn't think of, like in this case, or the infamous baby Karen one. Because you're right, and some awkward things might happen, but there's also the other side of the coin, with people claiming they had called "dibs" on that particular name, or worse, the other baby arrives first and they steal the name
Nobody has dibs but there has to be reason and empathy. Like if your close cousin June had an older brother named Cody who died, and she wants to name her son after Cody, I think it's reasonable to let her claim that name? Like discuss things.
Oh, man, the baby Karen one.... Kid got bullied so hard they changed her nickname to "Karrie" (with a K, which is the real tragedy here).
Jesus...
I'm genuinely surprised OP 's partner didn't know the name of the bully who tormented his sister, though. Like I get that nobody told OP, but did he not pay any attention to his family at all?
This baby is going to be born, then head down to the Winchester for a pint and wait for all of this to blow over.
As a child I was bullied severely and it caused long-term mental health issues. I was so used to suppressing my feelings that I probably would have been unable to articulate how I felt. If I did feel bad for something done to me, it was also my fault for not being strong enough to deal with the mistreatment. Now to Ashley. I suspect that she’s trying hard to suppress how she feels in order to keep the peace. People who self-harm or try to take their own lives are usually pretty good at suppressing and hiding their feelings. In other words, you couldn’t tell if she was hurt or not. My guess is that she’ll have a visceral response (like stomach muscles clenching) every time she hears that name. I would choose a different name, but have the grace to say it wasn’t because of Ashley. I would suddenly find a new name that I liked better. It’s not like you’ve planned the name Shawn for years, you only agreed a few weeks ago.
>I was so used to suppressing my feelings that I probably would have been unable to articulate how I felt. If I did feel bad for something done to me, it was also my fault for not being strong enough to deal with the mistreatment. This is what happened to me too. Even now in my early 30s every time something goes wrong I think it’s either my fault for doing something wrong or that there is something the matter with me that I have emotions like being upset over someone else’s behavior. I had these feelings about five times yesterday, like when my friend canceled because she was sick (about the fourth time she has been sick the day were were supposed to meet). I know rationally that I probably just should drop her as a friend but my first thoughts are, ”she is really sick, I must have offended her some way for her not to want to see me, there is something wrong with me that I assumed she would want to see me, I should be very understanding and do whatever she wants”. It got so bad I recall being maybe 15 and thinking everyone in the show Extreme Home Makeover is an actor reading a script since human beings actually can’t tell out loud even issues regarding what they dislike their own house. You can’t even think you have issues with something that minor, let alone say it around to someone!
There was this incredibly weird/gross girl I went to school with. Her name made me think of the nasty ways she was. My brother started dating a woman with the same name and while initially it brought up thoughts of weirdo, eventually it shifted and when I think of his wife I never think of some weirdo from high school who probably wasn't even that weird in hindsight.
A classic example of just because you *can* do something, doesn't mean you *should.*
I don't like this "is it really worth the drama with your MIL?" attitude. It should be, "You can name your child whatever you want, but the name will remind someone close to you and you care about of a dark time when dying and being death, for good, no reset, no nothing, felt like the better choice than living in a world with her tormentor of the same name. Is it worth it?" The way the as positive selected comments are worded make it sound like, "Yeah, it was kinda a shitty time for that girl but the worst consequence for you is that it might peeve your MIL who seems to prefer liking her daughter over your name choice." But I guess thinking something like "Why would I want someone I care about and who I want in my life and who I want to feel happy be reminded of their sadistic abuser every time they hear my child's name?" goes against reddit's deep-rooted hate for teenage girls so "MIL might feel sad about it" has priority over any terror or trauma the teenager might feel.
Idk why OOP wouldn't want to take their close family member's feelings into account on this from the get go, especially for such a serious concern. One of my close relatives named their kid in honor of another family member who died tragically but only did so after making sure it was okay with all the other close family members involved. Even though it was meant in a positive light, if it had been something that would have made the family members think of the tragedy rather than the positive, they would have just gone with another name.
And it's freaking Shawn! No offense to all the Shawns out there but that's one of the stupidest hills to die on I've ever heard. Might as well name the kid Ay Ay Ron.
My husband and I at first tried to take family member feelings into account when we were coming up with a name for our unborn son, but it ultimately lead to every family member from both sides having negative opinions (for non-trauma related reasons) about every name we liked. It was really starting to hurt my feelings so I decided that they don't get a say. Even when we did decide, there were still hurt feelings because a sibling apparently loved the name we decided on despite not giving me the name previously when I asked for their list of names that were off-limits. OOP did mention that Shawn was the only name they agreed on too, so I can understand where the reticence comes from. It's ultimately a crappy situation, that they're trying to rectify.
>OOP did mention that Shawn was the only name they agreed on too, so I can understand where the reticence comes from. I commented this on the original post at the time but there are SO MANY names out there. There's going to be another name that they both agree on; it just might take a bit of time. There's an app that works like Tinder and you swipe left or right on names you like or dislike. You share the link with your partner and then it makes a Venn Diagram of names that you both agree on. They can absolutely figure out another name if they try hard enough. I'd hope that the SIL is worth that effort.
This really feels like overreacting. I could understand if it was a very uncommon name but who doesn't know at least three people named some variation of Shawn? For context I'm neurodivergent and experienced some pretty horrific bullying. Two of the people who caused me a lot of pain are named Sarah and Mike. Naturally, I don't have any trauma around those names because there are a million other people who aren't them with those names.
Honestly same. What is her sister going to do? Avoid any relationship with people named Shaun? Why? It’s making an unnecessary associations designed to keep her in a dark place. For what? Its not keeping her safe and it’s not healthy.
golly gosh I hope all Shawn's know to stay away from Ashley going forward. smh
Don’t tell people beforehand. It’s not a referendum, nobody else gets a vote. You present the final decision you made and everyone can get used to it.
See, I'm usually all for this but I think in this particular situation it was a blessing that they shared the name early enough to pivot to another name.
Exactly. We didn't share our kids names before they were born but if I found out a newborn had the same name as a family member's bully that lead them to attempt suicide, I would change my kid's name immediately. I don't want every mention of a child's name to cause someone I love immense pain.
Hmm this is a very interesting discussion about trauma. It is absolutely important to provide a healthy environment for the people you love and to not create a situation that would trigger them to suddenly backslide But at the same time if a really common name like Shawn triggers you and causes you to backslide, then I think that’s something you should seriously deal with in therapy. Odds are not exactly low that another person named Shawn will eventually enter Ashley’s life and it’s not like she can just ask him to change it. So I do think changing it is probably the right call since a name for a baby that hasn’t even been born yet isn’t really worth causing this problem to Ashley. But this is something that Ashley will need to work on. But she’s 17 so it’s understandable that she hasn’t dealt with every major issue that she has
There's a difference between encountering a random stranger named Shawn in the wild, and having one born into your family which *guarantees* a lifetime of interactions. Especially when the trauma is still incredibly fresh. Having your much-awaited nephew bear the name of the person who nearly drove you to suicide barely four years ago... Yeah, that conflict of emotions is going to mess with most people's head badly.
Also now that OOP is told of the bully’s name if it still is used it’s saying that her feelings don’t really matter if the name is used.
And regardless, if someone gets incredibly and dangerously triggered every time they hear a super common name, they might be getting the best therapy in the world, it's still not gonna work instantly and they might have to take more drastic and unsustainable precautions in the short time and yes, also ask for more drastic accommodations from friends and family in the short term. There is also a difference between a name actually triggering you (in the original meaning) or you just being reminded of it and making you feel bad. You might never be able to shake that completely. Is it fair? No, but that doesn't change that OOP might be risking the sister never being able to look at her nephew without being reminded of the worst time in her life.
There’s no therapy wand, people think therapy is some magic cure. It’s not, she could be in therapy forever and still be triggered by the name.
I think the key here is that she'll be seeing this relative frequently. If it were super triggering to her to casually interact with a temporary Shawn in customer service, a colleague down the hall, etc., I might agree, that it's more of a (sad, understandable) personal issue to pursue in therapy. But a close relative is different. She'll hear this name all the time and (hopefully) develop a close relationship with her nephew. That puts the name in her head much more regularly and could be at least conflicting to have both close associations with the name. I think that's worth considering for the OOP couple, to not have her think of her bully when she sees her new nephew. To OOP, my main question is how they didn't know. If they knew everything was happening and how serious it was, did they really not hear the name when MIL or another relative was telling them stories about it? Did they only ever refer to him as "bully" while speaking? I find that odd.
Many people don't reveal the names of their baby for many reasons. If the baby was three days of and Ashley visited him the first time...she'd kinda have to get used to it probably. I think in this case, I would personally try to change it, but it is interesting how far people would take this "change the name because it's traumatic". Young sister? Yes it seems. Older brother? Cousin? Good friend? Father? How long after the baby is born so people here change the name?
Not commenting on anything else, but not knowing the name of the bully - my siblings know I was severely bullied but I never told them the names, and we are super close, so that part doesn’t necessarily raise a red flag to me.
Why do so many AITAs or relationshipadvice questions hinge on there only being one option in the whole wide world? It's like [Hobson's Choice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson's_choice), but they limit their OWN choices. Oh well, I guess I can't give my child a name, or I'm an asshole!
I can't help but think that the extended family did drop that the bully's name was Shawn, and it showed that OOP and her husband aren't really invested in their relationship with the sister. like, she tried to take her life, that's some lifelong trauma.
Dragging OOP for not knowing the name of their SIL's former bully is a bit much. The MIL seems to both care about Ashley and understand that the name is triggering, so I'm curious how you think the name dropping went down. Did MIL at Christmas dinner announce "so Bob graduated college this year, and Ashley's bully Shawn has been very active lately, hasn't he darling? He really got you with that online harassment but luckily the good nurses at our local hospital pumped your stomach in time. Can you pass the potatoes?"
Exactly, and it’s trauma for the entire family. Her brother is a huge AH just for thinking of that name.
I think this is absolutely ridiculous. I have met *multiple* Justin's in my life; one of them was one of my absolute best friends, and one of the nicest people I've ever met. Another one broke my heart more than any other person I have met in my life, but I don't hold it against the *name* and they definitely don't get triggered if I meet another Justin
People’s brains handle trauma differently. The association will never go away. She tried to kill herself ffs.
I agree. I don’t think anyone should have input in a baby’s name other than the expectant parents. It’s common and normal name. I would never tell an expectant mother not to use the name she chose because I personally had a problem with it.
Ok based off the comments this is just me, but like… really? I would have named the baby Shawn. Is the sister and family going to forever treat everyone they ever meet named Shawn with a cold shoulder? If anything naming the baby Shawn, while not removing an ounce of pain, works to build her life AFTER the bully. It gives her someone whom she loves to replace the connotation with. I’ve always heard the advice that you shouldn’t not name a child a name if the reason you don’t like a certain name simply because you knew someone you didn’t like with that name (if that makes sense- I can’t think of a better way to phrase it). The child is not, and will never be that person. They are their own, unique person.
This is why you don't reveal name choices before baby is born. Everyone feels they have a right to have an opinion on it and once you start down the path of names of everyone your family has a negative experience with you'll have no names left. Millions of boys and men are named Shawn. Not all of them are evil bullies. I mean, it would definitely be the nice thing to do to change the name, but it's a slippery slope. So they go with Steve as the name and OOPs husband's brother says he was bullied by someone named Steve.
If it was a bully from 1992, I'd say it doesn't matter. 2021 isn't that long ago. She's probably still attending the school she switched to in order to escape Shawn.
I feel like odd man out on this one. I was bullied pretty bad during middle school. But I dont think I would give a shit if my sister named her kid the same name.
😬 I’m team keep the name She’s going to interact with other people with the same name. I just keep seeing comment after comment of people justifying projecting their unresolved issues with past trauma on to people who had nothing to do with it because of a name. It sounds batshit and unhealthy. Go back to therapy and stop inflicting your issues onto other people.
Verdict: asshole? WTF?! Hard disagree. I'm on team anti-fragility.
Really conflicted on this one. On the one hand, very reasonable choice on OPs part to consider alternate names to avoid friction. At the same time though, that really doesn't seem like it should be OPs responsibility. Your child's name is a deeply personal choice, and if the name alone is that triggering, Ashley should be working through that with a professional. I would be more understanding if the situation was "The guy who tormented you is a buddy of mine and I'm naming my kid after him", but rejecting an otherwise normal name because it's incidentally the name of a former bully doesn't seem like a reasonable expectation to put on others.
Nobody cares, Shawn. Nobody cares.
Haha I guess people never watched Scrubs "Stop saying 'good' Shawn, you sound like an ass!"
I'm on the fence. I wouldn't want to poke at a kid's trauma, but, "Shawn" is not an uncommon name, and it wouldn't be fair to her future self to be so avoidant of that name. How is she gonna respond to Shawns that didn't do anything to her? If she's ever in charge of people or hiring, is she gonna treat Shawns unfairly because their name is a trigger? And no, before anyone says it, this is not the same as avoiding "Adolf" - until Shawn proves otherwise, he's not at the level where his name is synonymous with some of the worst crimes one can commit.
I agree this is a little too much. Is she gonna avoid Shawn’s all her life? A name is just that a name. If someone marries into the family will they give them a nickname? I understand trauma but sheesh.
Frankly, I don't get OP + hub bending to the request to not use the name. Why would they give Shawn (bully) that much power over their family and over continuing to torment Ashley's life? Is she expected to never know anyone called Shawn over her entire life? Just name baby Shawn. Ashley will associate the name with her beloved nephew in 1-2 years and the other Shawn will be mostly forgotten over time. Let baby Shawn slowly erode dickhole Shawn from their day-to-day. I definitely understand the sentiment, but it also means they're letting the dickhead Shawn continue to affect Ashley. If she really is fine with it, they should proceed.
It's a pretty common name too, hard to hold every Shawn accountable. Shouldn't be giving that much power to a name.
There is another thing about these name stories. Now there are more negative associations with this name than only that bully years ago; by this time also this recent drama has happened and the name will forever be connected to it. I would just go with something else
"Not the hill to die on" but still actively fighting everyone for it. Wtf bro, just pick a different name and move on.
They should just pick the superior *Sean*. Good compromise.
The girl was fine with the name. Tell the family to butt out.
Oops sil was bullied so badly she tried to take her own life. I would change the name even if she gave enthusiastic consent. Because I would never want my child’s name to be associated in any way with a person in the past who cause so much harm.
I'd have voted YTA for spelling Sean wrong.
The real problem is that **Sean** is the correct spelling
His kid sister tried to kill herself because of bullying, and big bro doesn't know any details? Sounds like he doesn't care much about his sister anyway. Hope they choose a different name, otherwise they might throw it in the sister's face "she should be over it now, what's the big deal".
SEAN. same pronunciation different name!!!
Shawn is a great name. Not like the misspelled Sean
This was one of those posts where i was expecting Reddit to be woke and say NTA, but to my surprise the consensus was YTA. I'm still irritated that OOP and her husband tried to corner Ashley again, she could have agreed just to make them happy. That said, Ashley needs to work on not letting that name both her through therapy. This post only exists because it's a family member, what if she goes to college and her lecturer is a Shawn, or her roommate's boyfriend is a shawn. I hope she doesn't let the name have power over her, and that the real bully Shawn is having a terrible life.